For those who reject the oral Torah

[Torah613]

please explain away this:

"Scientific examination revealed that three of the four scriptural passages from the capsule of head phylacteries were still in their original compartments. The form of the phylacteries, the material used for the parchment and the tying, all conform to the regulations given in the Talmud. Most surprisingly, the difference of opinion between Rashi (1040-1105) and his grandson Rabbenu Tam (1096-1171) two 12th-century Talmudists, as to the order of arranging the four scriptural passages in the head compartments is reflected in the Qumran fragments. Thus we know that the dispute did not originate during the medieval period, as some scholars had previously thought, but reflected divergent traditions which go back to the 1st century CE." (source (http://www.karaites.org.uk/phylacteries.shtml))--note even the Karaites are admitting this point.

Link to Library of Congress article on the subject (http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/scr2.html)

Another article (http://www.abu.nb.ca/Courses/NTIntro/images/Phylactery.htm)

[FaithfulWife]

Hey Torah...

First :wave: thank you for always being respectful as we discuss different misconceptions we have about each other.

Second, it's been my observation that the christian people I know have the misconstrued idea that if something is written down, it is immutable and unchangeable. Thus many people incorrectly feel more "secure" or something when it's written down versus passed down orally. Also from my observation some christians also think that if it was passed down orally, "it's a bunch of rules that some guy said" and not the words of HaShem but rather of men.

I don't think that there's full comprehension of two things. One, for YEARS (like CENTURIES) the only way the Torah was even remembered was orally! Mothers taught childrend, fathers taught their sons who then argued over it and passed it down to their sons (l'dor v'dor). Two, that for all those centuries there were those who virtually dedicated themselves to memorizing it "jot and tittle" so that it wasn't lost! That for centuries it wasn't like it was an option to print copies of the Torah that people could individually carry around and underline, and that even when it was finally written, there were those who dedicated themselves to not only "writing it down" but doing is perfectly--perfect in each letter formation, sentence formation, paragraph formation, lining up letters, and EVERYTHING. There is no blemish in a Torah.

That just is not the way a christian person views their copy of "the bible" (using that as a general term to cover the variety of versions). Almost every christian I know has four or five person bibles at home. The church may have a BIGGER one, or one with fancy pictures or gold edges, but it's more or less "the same" as the ones at home. If there's a mistake or something tears, a christian will erase or tape it back together like a book.

Sooooo...I am in no way saying that christian's do not think the bible isn't holy or the complete Word of HaShem--just that their point of view is almost entirely different than that the Torah, and an actual Torah scroll, is a TREASURE beyond worth...not just a shul "bible"--or the reverence and sincerely, single-minded dedication that was given to keep the "oral tradition" perfectly.

For example, I never knew that the letters of a dreidel were anything other than random letters picked for fun (and gambling). Nope! There were years where it was instant DEATH to be studying Torah so Jews made up "games" to help their memories and look like they were gambling when really they were studying! The letters on a dreidel stand for Nes Gadol Haya Sham – "a great miracle happened there." But it was one way that they STUDIED and that oral tradition was preserved in its fullness.

Just offering that up as a way to maybe help explain that the two of us aren't coming from the same point of view AT ALL. ;)



~Faithful

[Steve Petersen]

Torah,

Are you referring to the concept or the authority of oral tradition?

[Torah613]

Hey Torah...

First :wave: thank you for always being respectful as we discuss different misconceptions we have about each other.

Second, it's been my observation that the christian people I know have the misconstrued idea that if something is written down, it is immutable and unchangeable. Thus many people incorrectly feel more "secure" or something when it's written down versus passed down orally. Also from my observation some christians also think that if it was passed down orally, "it's a bunch of rules that some guy said" and not the words of HaShem but rather of men.

I don't think that there's full comprehension of two things. One, for YEARS (like CENTURIES) the only way the Torah was even remembered was orally! Mothers taught childrend, fathers taught their sons who then argued over it and passed it down to their sons (l'dor v'dor). Two, that for all those centuries there were those who virtually dedicated themselves to memorizing it "jot and tittle" so that it wasn't lost! That for centuries it wasn't like it was an option to print copies of the Torah that people could individually carry around and underline, and that even when it was finally written, there were those who dedicated themselves to not only "writing it down" but doing is perfectly--perfect in each letter formation, sentence formation, paragraph formation, lining up letters, and EVERYTHING. There is no blemish in a Torah.

That just is not the way a christian person views their copy of "the bible" (using that as a general term to cover the variety of versions). Almost every christian I know has four or five person bibles at home. The church may have a BIGGER one, or one with fancy pictures or gold edges, but it's more or less "the same" as the ones at home. If there's a mistake or something tears, a christian will erase or tape it back together like a book.

Sooooo...I am in no way saying that christian's do not think the bible isn't holy or the complete Word of HaShem--just that their point of view is almost entirely different than that the Torah, and an actual Torah scroll, is a TREASURE beyond worth...not just a shul "bible"--or the reverence and sincerely, single-minded dedication that was given to keep the "oral tradition" perfectly.

For example, I never knew that the letters of a dreidel were anything other than random letters picked for fun (and gambling). Nope! There were years where it was instant DEATH to be studying Torah so Jews made up "games" to help their memories and look like they were gambling when really they were studying! The letters on a dreidel stand for Nes Gadol Haya Sham – "a great miracle happened there." But it was one way that they STUDIED and that oral tradition was preserved in its fullness.

Just offering that up as a way to maybe help explain that the two of us aren't coming from the same point of view AT ALL. ;)



~Faithful

Well that's very interesting, but not really the point of this thread. But since you brought it up, it is a simple fact that nobody reads the Torah at face value (not even the Karaites). We all use some interpretative standard. Orthodox Rabbinic Jews use the Oral Torah. Everyone else picks or creates a standard of their own making. The Torah is not a plain book, but rathe complex. It can be read in a myriad of different ways, to apply to innumerable situations in life. thus we need the interpretative standard to apply it.

Its like with the constitution here in the states. Its a very murky document. For courts to interpret it as applicable to something that did not exist at the time it was written, they have to look at precedent and English Common Law and extrapolate a judgement from that. Its the same procedure for the use of the Oral Torah.

Now what you are talking about (the oral transmission of hte written Torah) is not exactly the same concept. According to Orthodox Judaism, both the written Torah, what you'd find in a shul, and the Oral Talmud, what you would find recorded int he Talmud, were handed down at HarSinai.

For some time, Karaites and certain segments of the chr*Stian world (mostly messianics who imitate the Karaite sect) have been saying that hte practice of Tfilin is medeival rabbinic stuff. The importance of this discovery is that it is a set of Tfilin dated to the 1st century BCE/1st century CE that is the exact same as the Tfilin that all Orthodox Jewish men put on 6 days a week. Thus they are at least as old as the Sadduccee sect (which later became the Karaite sect). The specific time period should be of note to chr*stians as well.

Basically, its an interesting historical find. Nothing more. an Aha! moment of archeology. Yeah I know, I'm a nerd. What else is new. The Nerds Shall Inherit the Earth.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

Torah,

Are you referring to the concept or the authority of oral tradition?

actually, I'm reffering to an interesting archeological discovery.


Yochanan

[Torah613]

of note also, is that this set of Tfilin actually predates the writing down of the Talmud by a couple centuries. However, it conforms to talmudic regulations.

Yochanan

[FaithfulWife]

I believe the set my ex has from his father who got them from his father is ALSO from the 1st century BCE... ;)

Torah, just so you know...I see what you're saying. This reminds me in ways of the big discovery they've had recently of a stone that was prior to the time period of Yehoshua but discusses rising from the dead in three days. The discovery (that the concept was not only around but discussed and considered) is BIG news archeologically. At this moment I'm not commenting on the spiritual implications--just mentioning that it's an archeological event of significance.

To me this PARTICULAR event of yours seems to demonstrate just the topic I was discussing. Talmud/Oral is not just "a bunch of rules that some guys said" (rolleyes) but rather this tends to lean toward support that it is an actual revelation that was dutifully passed down if not through millenia then at least through more centuries than previously thought! But that's my humble and unlearned, un-archeologist opinion.

:D

[FaithfulWife]

OH! Double post--I must have had a lot to say! :P

[HalcyonFire]

I guess my ultimate question is: why is one written and one oral and not both written and leave it at that? **hopefully that doesnt' sound to weird

what was the point of the one written (having previously been oral as most things start out) and one being oral and staying that way?

[Torah613]

well now of course they are both written. ;)

Sometime, you should watch the movie yentle. If you notice, when she goes to the Yeshiva that all he shelves are covered in bookshelves that are bursting at the seems? All those books (and probably more) compose the Oral Torah. You've got the Babylonian Talmud, the Palestinian Talmud, the commentaries and commentaries on commentaries, not to mention the responsum from various sages. Can you imagine having to schlepp all that from HarSinai to the land?

With any written document, you use an interpretative standard. Have you ever noticed that you can read a novel twice and catch something new each new time you read it, and that these new things change the meaning from what you originally thought? Well its the same with the Torah. If we simply read the Torah and each person took it at face value (which is not really possible) we would end up with every single person having a completely different idea as to what the torah says. So, in Orthodox Rabbinic Judaism, we have an interpretative standard that was given to Moshe Rabeinu on Mt. Sinai along with the written torah. This is commonly called the Oral Torah. It is the sum total of tradition.

Have you ever seen the musical Fiddler on the Roof? Its actually a really good depiction of the dialectic of Orthodox Judaism. No we don't live that way anymore, but the basic principle applies. Within Orthodoxy we have the tradition and we must bend within the tradition. There is alot of room for bending, but we must remain in constant dialogue with the tradition.

Yochanan

[anisavta]

Within Orthodoxy we have the tradition and we must bend within the tradition. There is alot of room for bending, but we must remain in constant dialogue with the tradition.
Honest question here:
Would that be considered Conservative Judaism instead of Orthodox?

[Torah613]

no. Chas V'Shalom!

Within the tradition, the halacha and minhagim must be applied to life and it is done with different circumstances.

Take marriage for instance. Shidduch doesn't look like it did 200 years ago, yet its still part of the tradition. I'm probably not making any sense, but I certainly did not mean to imply anything even begining to approach conservative Judaism.

Yochanan

[anisavta]

I guess my question stems from my wondering of how far do we go in not kindling fire and that tradition. Again the commandment not to kindle fire back when it was given was just as it ment. Don't start a fire. But if the fire was kindled before sabbath it could keep you warm on Sabbath. So today we don't have fire - we have electricity. Electricity courses thru our homes day and night. Turning on a light or pushing a button on the elevator does not kindle the electricity it just directs it. So having shabbas elevators or lights just means we personally don't push a button, but the direction of the electricity is still happening.
Am I making any sense here?
All this to say how do you decide as frum what is permitted in our complex society and what is not?

[Torah613]

could you light a fire from a candle on Shabbos? That's just redirecting the fire right?

Yochanan

[anisavta]

In Torah it only says not to kindle a fire. Candle lighting began in the 12th century so that was not an issue when Moshe wrote the command. I would assume then homes were lit by candles for function so the Shabbos candle was just for ceremony so other candles would have been lit before sundown. Did the family huddle around the one Shabbos candle all evening for their only source of light?
Now do you turn on all the lights in your home and leave them on all night? Do you huddle around the Shabbos candle as your only source of light and heat?
When you have a Shabbos elevator it is still stopping on your floor. The only difference is you are not pushing a button.
I guess my point here is, in our complicated world now, who decides halacha? Things are changing and being added constantly. Who decides how narrow or wide the fence goes?

[Henaynei]

I guess my question stems from my wondering of how far do we go in not kindling fire and that tradition. Again the commandment not to kindle fire back when it was given was just as it ment. Don't start a fire. But if the fire was kindled before sabbath it could keep you warm on Sabbath. So today we don't have fire - we have electricity. Electricity courses thru our homes day and night. Turning on a light or pushing a button on the elevator does not kindle the electricity it just directs it. So having shabbas elevators or lights just means we personally don't push a button, but the direction of the electricity is still happening.
Am I making any sense here?
All this to say how do you decide as frum what is permitted in our complex society and what is not?the core principle of Shabbat permissibles and forbiddens is this: G-d ceased creating on the 7th day (THAT is the work He stopped doing). We are commanded to also stop creating on Shabbat - to stop changing our environment - turning this or that on or off, up or down is definitely exerting control and mastery over our world and environment - something that we are to leave strictly to HaShem on Shabbat.....

[anisavta]

However given that line of thought wouldn't that apply to turning off pace makers, cochlear implant devices, electric wheelchairs, pain med pumps, dialysis machines... the list goes on. I still say it can get so complicated as to what is permissible and what is not.

[Torah613]

the core principle of Shabbat permissibles and forbiddens is this: G-d ceased creating on the 7th day (THAT is the work He stopped doing). We are commanded to also stop creating on Shabbat - to stop changing our environment - turning this or that on or off, up or down is definitely exerting control and mastery over our world and environment - something that we are to leave strictly to HaShem on Shabbat.....

yep that pretty much susses it up.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

However given that line of thought wouldn't that apply to turning off pace makers, cochlear implant devices, electric wheelchairs, pain med pumps, dialysis machines... the list goes on. I still say it can get so complicated as to what is permissible and what is not.

pikuach nefesh.

[anisavta]

I see what you are saying and I agree. Would you elaborate though.

[Torah613]

it needs no elaboration. These are necessary to save life, therefore even if they were a violationof shabbos they could not be done away with halachically. pikuach nefesh, to save a life, overrides every mitzvah except for adultury, idolotry, and murder.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

well now of course they are both written. ;)

Sometime, you should watch the movie yentle. If you notice, when she goes to the Yeshiva that all he shelves are covered in bookshelves that are bursting at the seems? All those books (and probably more) compose the Oral Torah. You've got the Babylonian Talmud, the Palestinian Talmud, the commentaries and commentaries on commentaries, not to mention the responsum from various sages. Can you imagine having to schlepp all that from HarSinai to the land?

With any written document, you use an interpretative standard. Have you ever noticed that you can read a novel twice and catch something new each new time you read it, and that these new things change the meaning from what you originally thought? Well its the same with the Torah. If we simply read the Torah and each person took it at face value (which is not really possible) we would end up with every single person having a completely different idea as to what the torah says. So, in Orthodox Rabbinic Judaism, we have an interpretative standard that was given to Moshe Rabeinu on Mt. Sinai along with the written torah. This is commonly called the Oral Torah. It is the sum total of tradition.

Have you ever seen the musical Fiddler on the Roof? Its actually a really good depiction of the dialectic of Orthodox Judaism. No we don't live that way anymore, but the basic principle applies. Within Orthodoxy we have the tradition and we must bend within the tradition. There is alot of room for bending, but we must remain in constant dialogue with the tradition.

Yochanan
I figured they were written now. :)

I guess my big hang up is that if it's too much to carry... then it's certainly too much to retain and how could one possibly be held to understand and or follow it (be beholden to it)? IDK.

I guess part of me feels weird about it because I relate it to catholic Tradition. That has always made me queezy.

[HalcyonFire]

the core principle of Shabbat permissibles and forbiddens is this: G-d ceased creating on the 7th day (THAT is the work He stopped doing). We are commanded to also stop creating on Shabbat - to stop changing our environment - turning this or that on or off, up or down is definitely exerting control and mastery over our world and environment - something that we are to leave strictly to HaShem on Shabbat.....
(serious question)
is this spelled out on Torah, or is this a rabinnic interpretation?