Pesach

[HalcyonFire]

Would any Jew be denied the right/privelage of attending/participating in this? If so why? If not, why?

[HalcyonFire]

I mean the seder...

[Torah613]

C"S that any Jew would not have a place to be for Seder.

If you hear of any, let me know. I make a mean charoset.

Yochanan

[FaithfulWife]

I've been pondering on this question all day!

I can not imagine the situation under which a Jewish person would not be allowed to participate in a seder. I'm not the most knowledgeable person in the world but I just can not think of ANYTHING...so I'm :confused:

[HalcyonFire]

I was just wondering. There are so many things like this celebration that in christianity if you weren't "right" you could not participate. I have always had the impression that the Jews do not do things this way (the exclusion thing) except for things like say, ritual impurity, which is an easy call and easy to remedy in most cases.... I just was wondering if I was right... and it appears I am.

On a side note, I really wanna participate in seder some time... It seems almost magical sounding.

[Kris10leigh]

I was just wondering. There are so many things like this celebration that in christianity if you weren't "right" you could not participate. I have always had the impression that the Jews do not do things this way (the exclusion thing) except for things like say, ritual impurity, which is an easy call and easy to remedy in most cases.... I just was wondering if I was right... and it appears I am.

On a side note, I really wanna participate in seder some time... It seems almost magical sounding.

Can you give an example of something in Christianity one couldn't participate in? :confused:

I'm not saying I do everything right, but Seder's aren't as difficult as they first appear. I suggest purchasing a Haggadah and just diving in. My family has been doing it for 6 or 7 years now and it just gets better every year. Just do the basics at first and add on as you feel comfortable.

[HalcyonFire]

communion for example

[Kris10leigh]

communion for example
Oh...never thought of that. But I don't see why someone who wasn't Christian would want to take communion.

And in that regard, Catholics take it one step further and only allow other Catholics to take communion. I've made my peace with that though as I now understand why that is. ;)

[HalcyonFire]

and some protestant and non-denoms teach that if you are not "right with God" when you take it you could die a horrible death.

[Kris10leigh]

and some protestant and non-denoms teach that if you are not "right with God" when you take it you could die a horrible death.
Really? :confused: :confused: :doh:

[HalcyonFire]

yeah. it's disturbing isn't it?

[HalcyonFire]

yeah. it's disturbing isn't it?

[ChavaK]

The only issue I can think of is if a Jew showed up with a non-Jew....
we are not supposed to have non-Jews at seders so this could be
a sticky situation.

Do you go ahead and have the Jewish person stay with their non-Jewish
partner, for kiruv and compassionate reasons? But going against halachah?

Or do you tell them the Jew can attend, but not their partner, thus
forcing them to leave?

[HalcyonFire]

so non jews cannot attend seder in orthodox households?

[Lulav]

Would any Jew be denied the right/privelage of attending/participating in this? If so why? If not, why? Yes, if they were not circumcised ( which still happens today, I know of one). Also the ruling back when was that if you were absent or defiled with a dead body you couldn't thus that is why they went to Moshe and found what they could do. So he asked HaShem and he gave them a second chance the next month , the second month on the 14th they could keep it. Today most Jews don't even know about this, I find it fascinating though and wonder what it's special meaning may be. :)

[Lulav]

From Number 9
1 The Lord spoke to Moses in the Desert of Sinai in the first month of the second year after they came out of Egypt. He said, 2 "Have the Israelites celebrate the Passover at the appointed time. 3 Celebrate it at the appointed time, at twilight on the fourteenth day of this month, in accordance with all its rules and regulations." 4 So Moses told the Israelites to celebrate the Passover, 5 and they did so in the Desert of Sinai at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. The Israelites did everything just as the Lord commanded Moses. 6 But some of them could not celebrate the Passover on that day because they were ceremonially unclean on account of a dead body. So they came to Moses and Aaron that same day 7 and said to Moses, "We have become unclean because of a dead body, but why should we be kept from presenting the Lord's offering with the other Israelites at the appointed time?" 8 Moses answered them, "Wait until I find out what the Lord commands concerning you." 9 Then the Lord said to Moses, 10 "Tell the Israelites: 'When any of you or your descendants are unclean because of a dead body or are away on a journey, they may still celebrate the Lord's Passover. 11 They are to celebrate it on the fourteenth day of the second month at twilight. They are to eat the lamb, together with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 12 They must not leave any of it till morning or break any of its bones. When they celebrate the Passover, they must follow all the regulations. 13 But if a man who is ceremonially clean and not on a journey fails to celebrate the Passover, that person must be cut off from his people because he did not present the Lord's offering at the appointed time. That man will bear the consequences of his sin.

[HalcyonFire]

Yes, if they were not circumcised ( which still happens today, I know of one). Also the ruling back when was that if you were absent or defiled with a dead body you couldn't thus that is why they went to Moshe and found what they could do. So he asked HaShem and he gave them a second chance the next month , the second month on the 14th they could keep it. Today most Jews don't even know about this, I find it fascinating though and wonder what it's special meaning may be. :)
:blush: how would most people know??? :blush:

[HalcyonFire]

From Number 9
1 The Lord spoke to Moses in the Desert of Sinai in the first month of the second year after they came out of Egypt. He said, 2 "Have the Israelites celebrate the Passover at the appointed time. 3 Celebrate it at the appointed time, at twilight on the fourteenth day of this month, in accordance with all its rules and regulations." 4 So Moses told the Israelites to celebrate the Passover, 5 and they did so in the Desert of Sinai at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. The Israelites did everything just as the Lord commanded Moses. 6 But some of them could not celebrate the Passover on that day because they were ceremonially unclean on account of a dead body. So they came to Moses and Aaron that same day 7 and said to Moses, "We have become unclean because of a dead body, but why should we be kept from presenting the Lord's offering with the other Israelites at the appointed time?" 8 Moses answered them, "Wait until I find out what the Lord commands concerning you." 9 Then the Lord said to Moses, 10 "Tell the Israelites: 'When any of you or your descendants are unclean because of a dead body or are away on a journey, they may still celebrate the Lord's Passover. 11 They are to celebrate it on the fourteenth day of the second month at twilight. They are to eat the lamb, together with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 12 They must not leave any of it till morning or break any of its bones. When they celebrate the Passover, they must follow all the regulations. 13 But if a man who is ceremonially clean and not on a journey fails to celebrate the Passover, that person must be cut off from his people because he did not present the Lord's offering at the appointed time. That man will bear the consequences of his sin.
wonder if that means the defiled ones hang out and have passover, second edition, or if the family can re-celebrate with them

[Lulav]

Other things that happened within that week

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month--on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.

The whole Israelite community set out from Elim and came to the Desert of Sin, which is between Elimand Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they had come out of Egypt.

On the twentieth day of the second month of the second year, the cloud lifted from above the tabernacle of the Testimony.

We see it being celebrated here in Hezekiahs day
The king and his officials and the whole assembly in Jerusalem decided to celebrate the Passover in the second month.

[Lulav]

wonder if that means the defiled ones hang out and have passover, second edition, or if the family can re-celebrate with them If it is because of a death , then the whole family would be sitting sheva so they all would not be participating, but in mourning. If away, I don't see why when they come back the whole family cannot do it a second time. The commandment is to celebrate it, there is no restriction I am aware of that keeps you from celebrating twice! what the L-RD did is worth it! :clap::amen:?

[HalcyonFire]

right. i meant death like... bob and mark were on a journy together (and unrelated)... bob died and mark buried him (thus being defiled)... marks family had seder without him (or would they) and then can they "re-celebrate" later... :)

[ChavaK]

so non jews cannot attend seder in orthodox households?

Non-Jews should not attend a Jewish seder anywhere, although of
course the non-Orthodox probably don't hold by this.

It isn't because gentiles are evil or unworthy, but has to do with
issues of cooking for non-Jews on yom tov.

[HalcyonFire]

cooking for non-Jews? 'splain please

my friend Mike went to Pesach seder... so I guess he knows non-orthodox Jews :) but then that doesn't suprise me knowing Mike

[ChavaK]

An uncircumcised Jew may attend a seder; the prohibition is against eating the
korban pesach, not attending a seder...

[kivi]

I was just wondering. There are so many things like this celebration that in christianity if you weren't "right" you could not participate. I have always had the impression that the Jews do not do things this way (the exclusion thing) except for things like say, ritual impurity, which is an easy call and easy to remedy in most cases.... I just was wondering if I was right... and it appears I am.

On a side note, I really wanna participate in seder some time... It seems almost magical sounding.

kivi says: In fact, there are several times during the Seder that it is especifially mentioned that all Jews are invited to attended. And the point of the 4 Sons is to point out that no matter what the Jews' level of observance, they are still part of the Seder party. It should also be noted that there is also Pesach Sheini, an opportunity in Jerusalem, during the time of the Temple, e month later, to conduct the Pesach Korban and Seder if the Jew in question was ritually 'impure'.

[HalcyonFire]

See. that seems so much more... cough cough... loving than condeming (as some christian practices are condemning IMO)

[Torah613]

The only issue I can think of is if a Jew showed up with a non-Jew....
we are not supposed to have non-Jews at seders so this could be
a sticky situation.

Do you go ahead and have the Jewish person stay with their non-Jewish
partner, for kiruv and compassionate reasons? But going against halachah?

Or do you tell them the Jew can attend, but not their partner, thus
forcing them to leave?

this is indeed a tricky situation.

Perhaps the nonjew could eat at a seperate table. Would this be a way around the halacha, or is it not in the house at all during seder?

This is yet another reason why Jews should only marry/date Jews. As if there aren't enough reasons.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

this is indeed a tricky situation.

Perhaps the nonjew could eat at a seperate table. Would this be a way around the halacha, or is it not in the house at all during seder?


Yochanan

The problem is the cooking that is done. Now, there are halachic
ways around it, but some people are machmir and would not
consider having a gentile at their seder no matter what....

[Torah613]

looks like I'm gunna have to get myself invited to some frum folks' seder. what with dad being goy and all.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

The problem is the cooking that is done. Now, there are halachic
ways around it, but some people are machmir and would not
consider having a gentile at their seder no matter what....
:( I still don't know what the cooking problems are...

[Torah613]

the problem is it is halachically forbidden to cook for a nonjew on Pesach.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

why?

[ChavaK]

Oh, sorry. I won't go into all the details, but in a nutshell when you cook on yom tov
you are only supposed to cook for that day (not the next) and only cook what you
need to....cooking for a non-Jew is not essential for yom tov. So you are cooking
beyond what is necessary...there are ways around this which some will use and
some will not...depends on how machmir people are.

[HalcyonFire]

hmmm... seems that it is not really clear (why is it considered excessive? if they are a guest I would think with the kinds of hospitality that are expected from Jews - am I right that hospitality is a standard expectation among them? maybe not - for some reason I had the impression it was a thing that WAS expected... but you know my level of education, anyway), that this would not be so much seen as an "extra"... ???

[Lulav]

looks like I'm gunna have to get myself invited to some frum folks' seder. what with dad being goy and all.

Yochanan so just how does that work in Orthodox circles? If your father is gentile? You have to disassociated yourself from him? What if he wanted to spend Passover with you? What if your mother was now frum and she cooked, would she not be allowed to serve her husband, would he have to go to the corner NO deli and get a sandwich?

Sorry, I just don't get this, see my mother is 1/2 Jewish and my father 100% so not used to this twist of culture etiquette, this does not sound right to me, although I have heard that if a Jewish woman is married to a gentile and she makes teshuvah she is expected to divorce her husband, so much for what G-d has joined together................

Isn't that like breaking the 5th mitzvah? or don't the ten hold precedence over the other 603 in Rabbinic Judaism?

[Lulav]

hmmm... seems that it is not really clear (why is it considered excessive? if they are a guest I would think with the kinds of hospitality that are expected from Jews - am I right that hospitality is a standard expectation among them? maybe not - for some reason I had the impression it was a thing that WAS expected... but you know my level of education, anyway), that this would not be so much seen as an "extra"... ???

Well, this Messianic Jew believes in hospitality, we are to do so, no matter who it is, the love of G-d shown is for everyone, not just Jews, Abraham didn't ask but is our father showing hospitality, it was still alive in Yeshua's time, but separation was an issue then, it isn't now, not to those who believe, for those who don't the golden rule still applies.

[Lulav]

Oh, sorry. I won't go into all the details, but in a nutshell when you cook on yom tov
you are only supposed to cook for that day (not the next) and only cook what you
need to....cooking for a non-Jew is not essential for yom tov. So you are cooking
beyond what is necessary...there are ways around this which some will use and
some will not...depends on how machmir people are. So you only cook a certain amount to feed what you feel appropriate for your guest to consume and if they wanted more? That is not hospitable to me, that is portion control and like a impersonal restaurant like atmosphere. I always cook so much for Passover that twice as many guests could show up and none would go hungry. Plus after all the preparation, it is good to have all that leftover food to just heat up for the rest of the week while you rest up from the whole month of preparing.

And what about the place for Eliyahu the Tishbite??? :)

[ChavaK]

so just how does that work in Orthodox circles? If your father is gentile? You have to disassociated yourself from him? What if he wanted to spend Passover with you? What if your mother was now frum and she cooked, would she not be allowed to serve her husband, would he have to go to the corner NO deli and get a sandwich?
Good questions, and ones that modern Jews who have strayed off
the derech have to deal with. For these questions we consult our
rabbi, because each situation must be dealt with individually.

Sorry, I just don't get this, see my mother is 1/2 Jewish and my father 100% You can't be 1/2 Jewish, you are either a Jew or you are not...

so not used to this twist of culture etiquette, this does not sound right to me, although I have heard that if a Jewish woman is married to a gentile and she makes teshuvah she is expected to divorce her husband, so much for what G-d has joined together................Again, more difficult questions that assimilation and intermarriage has
forced upon modern Jews. But yes, she would be expected do divorce
her husband if she is indeed a BT, but in reality I have never seen
anyone press the issue. We have an intermarried couple at Chabad,
and one at the OU shul I also attend. No one is mentioning divorce
to them, we need to draw them closer not push them away. In the
past, in every case except these two, the non-Jewish spouse has
ended up converting so in the long run this kiruv was the correct
approach.
And G-d has not joined together an intermarried couple...He
cries whenever this happens. This is the doing of man.


Isn't that like breaking the 5th mitzvah? or don't the ten hold precedence over the other 603 in Rabbinic Judaism?So, one should break other mitzvot to follow other mitzvot? Which mitzvot
is more important? The 613 can all be found in the Torah, they are not a made up "Rabbinic Judaism" invention :)
A frum Jew should break shabbas in order to go visit their secular parents, in order to make them happy and honor them?
:wave:

[ChavaK]

So you only cook a certain amount to feed what you feel appropriate for your guest to consume and if they wanted more? That is not hospitable to me, that is portion control and like a impersonal restaurant like atmosphere. I always cook so much for Passover that twice as many guests could show up and none would go hungry. Plus after all the preparation, it is good to have all that leftover food to just heat up for the rest of the week while you rest up from the whole month of preparing.

And what about the place for Eliyahu the Tishbite??? :)

It is a lot more complex than that.....I'll come back and address the
issue after shabbas when I have more time.
I was trying not to snow her under with a detailed response...
but more later..

[Torah613]

Good questions, and ones that modern Jews who have strayed off
the derech have to deal with. For these questions we consult our
rabbi, because each situation must be dealt with individually.
You can't be 1/2 Jewish, you are either a Jew or you are not...
Again, more difficult questions that assimilation and intermarriage has
forced upon modern Jews. But yes, she would be expected do divorce
her husband if she is indeed a BT, but in reality I have never seen
anyone press the issue. We have an intermarried couple at Chabad,
and one at the OU shul I also attend. No one is mentioning divorce
to them, we need to draw them closer not push them away. In the
past, in every case except these two, the non-Jewish spouse has
ended up converting so in the long run this kiruv was the correct
approach.
And G-d has not joined together an intermarried couple...He
cries whenever this happens. This is the doing of man.

So, one should break other mitzvot to follow other mitzvot? Which mitzvot
is more important? The 613 can all be found in the Torah, they are not a made up "Rabbinic Judaism" invention :)
A frum Jew should break shabbas in order to go visit their secular parents, in order to make them happy and honor them?
:wave:

of course its the doing of man. In fact its specifically commanded for a Jew to only marry a Jew. How on earth could HaShem approve of and join such a couple together, when He says in the Torah that he dissaproves of it?

I am not saying this to be trite. Believe me, I know and understand there are a lot of personal emotional issues involved. But this is the halacha as I see it.

Yochanan

[FaithfulWife]

As I understand it, this is just like any other sin that men (meaning HUman beings) do. We know what it is that pleases HaShem and choose not to do it. We know what it is that displeases HaShem and choose TO do that! Having been a woman who was Gentile, who married a Jewish man, and who is now divorced I can personally attest to the personal disasters that occur in our life when we make the decision to sin--but MAN we keep doing it anyway! (rolleyes)

[Torah613]

yep you sussed it up.

I look at some intermarried couples (Say my parents) and think "that's a good match, too bad he's not Jewish." We have what should be, and we have reality. Our job is to take the base reality, and elevate it to Frumality.

Yochanan

[Lulav]

Wonder what HaShem thought about Moshe's marriages? :)

[Torah613]

you mean Miriam? She converted.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

but did she do it before or after (and is this assumed or documented in the text? i don't know, am honestly asking)

[Lulav]

you mean Miriam? She converted.

Yochanan hmm, Miriam was a Levite, just like her brothers, Moshe and Aaron ;)

[Lulav]

I like this story:

The story is told of a young Jewish man who fell in love with a Gentile. His father was very upset, and told him

"Don't marry a shiksa. You'll regret it!"

The young woman saw how important Judaism was to her fiancé's family. She started learning about Judaism and liked what she saw, so she studied with the rabbi and converted. The first week after the couple returns from their honeymoon, the son is back at work in the family business. Friday afternoon Dad tells the son,

"See you tomorrow morning, we'll go over the books,"

and the son replies,

"Sorry, Dad, I can't come. Tomorrow is Shabbat, so we'll be at shul."

Dad says,

"I told you not to marry a shiksa!"

:D

[Torah613]

ROFL.

Sorry I was mistaken about miriam. there was another one, but i can't remember the name.

Yochanan

[Lulav]

I think he had two, one was named Zipporah, or something like that wasn't she Jethros daughter?

[Lulav]

I think she was a midianite, which always makes me wonder, like in this past weeks parsha, we were always fighting the midianites, so what ever happened to her and her children, Moshe's children?

[Torah613]

halachic conversion

Yochanan