Karadzic and the Serbian Orthodox Church

[ArnautDaniel]

I'm curious what the reaction has been among the Orthodox Christian community to the events surrounding Radovan Karadzic (a Serbian war criminal from the Bosnian Serb community), and in particular the reaction actions of the Serbian Orthodox Church to hide him and protect him from having to answer for his actions.

Have other Orthodox churches spoken out against the actions of the Serbian church, or has the Ecumenical Patriarch?

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/7552

[Komnenos]

I'm curious what the reaction has been among the Orthodox Christian community to the events surrounding Radovan Karadzic (a Serbian war criminal from the Bosnian Serb community), and in particular the reaction actions of the Serbian Orthodox Church to hide him and protect him from having to answer for his actions.

Have other Orthodox churches spoken out against the actions of the Serbian church, or has the Ecumenical Patriarch?

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/7552

Nope, not a single word. Its a shame that true Church doctrine and beliefs is being influenced by nationalism.

[Matrona]

There's very little evidence I know of that any Orthodox officials were involved in keeping Karadzic from justice.

I mean, there has been a lot made of "Orthodox priests blessing Serbian soldiers who committed massacres"; nothing about the hierarchs who condemned the massacres and the confusion of Orthodoxy with Serbian nationalism.

[Protoevangel]

I'm curious what the reaction has been among the Orthodox Christian community to the events surrounding Radovan Karadzic (a Serbian war criminal from the Bosnian Serb community), and in particular the reaction actions of the Serbian Orthodox Church to hide him and protect him from having to answer for his actions.

Have other Orthodox churches spoken out against the actions of the Serbian church, or has the Ecumenical Patriarch?

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/7552
Well part of what you say is misleading and unfair. Even the news story itself was more fair... It was not "the Serbian Orthodox Church" that wrongly harbored this criminal, it was "...many in...", followed with, "A church member who expressed delight that Karadzic will now face justice...". People on both sides are "the Church". The Church itself does not teach that harboring murderers from justice is appropriate.

I understand that you may not understand this distinction, but it is a real distinction, and an important one. It is not the Orthodox Church that was harboring this this criminal. Therefore, the other Orthodox churches probably have not even known what was going on, and if they did, they certainly would disapprove. But it would not be the other Church's places to do much (except perhaps in letters to the Hierarchs of the Serbian Church), as it is not as if the Serbian Church has began teaching wrong doctrine or anything.

But yes, I am pleased that this criminal is caught. I pray he finds true repentance.

[ArnautDaniel]

Well part of what you say is misleading and unfair. Even the news story itself was more fair... It was not "the Serbian Orthodox Church" that wrongly harbored this criminal, it was "...many in...", followed with, "A church member who expressed delight that Karadzic will now face justice...". People on both sides are "the Church". The Church itself does not teach that harboring murderers from justice is appropriate.

I understand that you may not understand this distinction, but it is a real distinction, and an important one. It is not the Orthodox Church that was harboring this this criminal. Therefore, the other Orthodox churches probably have not even known what was going on, and if they did, they certainly would disapprove. But it would not be the other Church's places to do much (except perhaps in letters to the Hierarchs of the Serbian Church), as it is not as if the Serbian Church has began teaching wrong doctrine or anything.

But yes, I am pleased that this criminal is caught. I pray he finds true repentance.

It is my understanding that he was (at times) being hidden in churches and monestaries. So at the very least those local representatives of the church helped him without any reproach from the Serbian Orthodox Church itself.

Unless that body has said something or done something regarding these things.

[Protoevangel]

It is my understanding that he was (at times) being hidden in churches and monestaries. So at the very least those local representatives of the church helped him without any reproach from the Serbian Orthodox Church itself.

Unless that body has said something or done something regarding these things.
Right, and it is those individuals who were complicit in hiding him who are guilty. Not the Church itself. I do agree, though, that all those who were complicit need to come to justice as well.

[nestoj]

I'm curious what the reaction has been among the Orthodox Christian community to the events surrounding Radovan Karadzic (a Serbian war criminal from the Bosnian Serb community), and in particular the reaction actions of the Serbian Orthodox Church to hide him and protect him from having to answer for his actions.

Have other Orthodox churches spoken out against the actions of the Serbian church, or has the Ecumenical Patriarch?

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/7552
They would first have to find more evidence than the Richard Holbrook's word that the SOC organized itself in order to help the suspect for the war crimes to avoid justice.

But, since the article says "including many in the Serbian Orthodox Church", that could be also said "including many of the Serbs", which is an interesting choice of words since, I'm sure, some of those who helped him could be churched and where else but in Serbian Orthodox Church.

"Back in 2004, NATO troops led by the SAS encircled a church and a priest’s family home in the former Bosnian Serb stronghold of Pale, a few miles from Sarajevo, in a failed attempt to grab Karadzic. Amid gunfire and an explosion, a priest and his son were wounded when explosives were used, the first time that civilians had been seriously injured in a raid to arrest the former Bosnian Serb leader."
This only speaks that someone attacked the church and wounded the priest and his son - for, what turned out to be, nothing.


"A church member who expressed delight that Karadzic will now face justice told Ekklesia that he was "ashamed" at what had been done in the name of Christianity in Serbia nd Bosnia."
Who is the church member? That could be anyone from me to the Patriarch. It could be president of Serbia. It could be someone under epytimia for coming drunk to the Liturgy. Things are different depending on that.

All this time, people were pointing at the SOC, some monasteries, caves and forests...and it turned he was in Belgrade all the time, with false identity, looking so differently than how anyone remembers or would have guessed, showing himself without fear even, as I witnessed from one recording earlier this day, on some local TV stations. And nobody recognized him for a long time. Now, I don't think SOC could provide him that, and if the SOC were helping him, they would have indeed send him to some monastery where there is no one but monks.

Another interesting choice of words from mister Holbrook is: the Serbian Democratic Party - which he described as "a criminal organisation". That's the largest party of Bosnian Serbs with the largest body of members - all part of criminal organization. Actually, that's the ruling party of Republic of Srpska - in which case entire Republic of Srpska is a criminal organization. Obviously interesting choice of words. If I had less faith in media and politicians, I could almost suspect they are somehow connected with the current attempts to dismantle the Republic of Srpska and force the Serbs in Bosnia to live, again, in one entity with muslims and Croats. Fortunately, I'm sure it has nothing to do with that.


God helps

[ArnautDaniel]

Right, and it is those individuals who were complicit in hiding him who are guilty. Not the Church itself. I do agree, though, that all those who were complicit need to come to justice as well.

Has the Serbian Orthodox Church made any statements, or taken any stand regarding these people?

[ArnautDaniel]

They would first have to find more evidence than the Richard Holbrook's word that the SOC organized itself in order to help the suspect for the war crimes to avoid justice.

But, since the article says "including many in the Serbian Orthodox Church", that could be also said "including many of the Serbs", which is an interesting choice of words since, I'm sure, some of those who helped him could be churched and where else but in Serbian Orthodox Church.

"Back in 2004, NATO troops led by the SAS encircled a church and a priest’s family home in the former Bosnian Serb stronghold of Pale, a few miles from Sarajevo, in a failed attempt to grab Karadzic. Amid gunfire and an explosion, a priest and his son were wounded when explosives were used, the first time that civilians had been seriously injured in a raid to arrest the former Bosnian Serb leader."


This only speaks that someone attacked the church and wounded the priest and his son - for, what turned out to be, nothing.



"A church member who expressed delight that Karadzic will now face justice told Ekklesia that he was "ashamed" at what had been done in the name of Christianity in Serbia nd Bosnia."
Who is the church member? That could be anyone from me to the Patriarch. It could be president of Serbia. It could be someone under epytimia for coming drunk to the Liturgy. Things are different depending on that.


Another interesting choice of words from mister Holbrook is: the Serbian Democratic Party - which he described as "a criminal organisation". That's the largest party of Bosnian Serbs with the largest body of members - all part of criminal organization. Actually, that's the ruling party of Republic of Srpska - in which case entire Republic of Srpska is a criminal organization. Obviously interesting choice of words. If I had less faith in media and politicians, I could almost suspect they are somehow connected with the current attempts to dismantle the Republic of Srpska and force the Serbs in Bosnia to live, again, in one entity with muslims and Croats. Fortunately, I'm sure it has nothing to do with that.

God helps

I'll assume you'd be singing the same tune, were all the details the same except:

1. The man in question were a Croat
2. The church in question were the Roman Catholic Church

[Komnenos]

Has the Serbian Orthodox Church made any statements, or taken any stand regarding these people?
Nope, and they probably won't seeing as nationalism and the Serbian church are unfortunately linked.

[nestoj]

I'll assume you'd be singing the same tune, were all the details the same except:

1. The man in question were a Croat
2. The church in question were the Roman Catholic Church

That too is an interesting assumption, only this time it's just about me, which is an improvement.

God helps

[Protoevangel]

Has the Serbian Orthodox Church made any statements, or taken any stand regarding these people?
Do we know who these people are? Do we even know that these vague reports are true? Did these (alleged) people really "hide him out", or did they show hospitality to an unknown stranger? As per the NY Times story (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/23/world/europe/23karadzic.html?_r=2&th=&oref=slogin&emc=th&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin): "He was hiding behind an enormous beard, white ponytailed hair topped with an odd black tuft, and a new life so at odds with his myth as to deflect suspicion." and "The fatigues-wearing leader of the Bosnian Serbs was unrecognizable in a guise that was part guru and part Santa Claus." "“I still don’t believe it’s the same person,” she said"

You make a lot of assumptions, and judge the whole Church on it. Come on, you are capable of better thinking than that.

[ArnautDaniel]

Do we know who these people are? Do we even know that these vague reports are true? Did these (alleged) people really "hide him out", or did they show hospitality to an unknown stranger? As per the NY Times story (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/23/world/europe/23karadzic.html?_r=2&th=&oref=slogin&emc=th&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin): "He was hiding behind an enormous beard, white ponytailed hair topped with an odd black tuft, and a new life so at odds with his myth as to deflect suspicion." and "The fatigues-wearing leader of the Bosnian Serbs was unrecognizable in a guise that was part guru and part Santa Claus." "“I still don’t believe it’s the same person,” she said"

You make a lot of assumptions, and judge the whole Church on it. Come on, you are capable of better thinking than that.

I'm just going with what major news outlets are saying (in this case "News Hour").

But the Roman Catholic Church does get criticized (and rightly so) for its actions (or lack of actions) during WWII and the Holocaust.

I was honestly seeing if the Orthodox Churches were upholding a higher moral and ethical standard in similar geopolitical straits.

[Protoevangel]

I'm just going with what major news outlets are saying (in this case "News Hour").
It looks more like you were going by what Ekklesia (liberal post-Christian "think-tank") has to say.

I quoted the New York Times for you. That was enough to question whether those who allegedly "harbored" this criminal were doing so knowingly, regardless of if they were members of the Church or not

I was honestly seeing if the Orthodox Churches were upholding a higher moral and ethical standard in similar geopolitical straits.
Well, the Heirarchy openly opposed the violence, during the ethnic cleansing, as evidenced by the "Appeal for Peace," released from the Serbian Orthodox Patriarchate, calling for peaceful means to resolve the conflict, and when Bishop Artemije of Kosovo stood knee-deep in the snow outside Rambouillet, locked out of the negotiations, and labeled a traitor due to his his years of activism for peace and refugees rights. Now, THAT is Orthodoxy.

[Rindicella]

I'm just going with what major news outlets are saying (in this case "News Hour").

But the Roman Catholic Church does get criticized (and rightly so) for its actions (or lack of actions) during WWII and the Holocaust.

I was honestly seeing if the Orthodox Churches were upholding a higher moral and ethical standard in similar geopolitical straits.

Look, we're glad that Karadzic has been caught, and that he will stand trial for his crimes. We also hope that he will repent. His position is not the position of the Orthodox Church. But let's stop pretending that the "Serbian Question" has anything to do with "upholding a higher moral and ethical standard in similar geopolitical straits".

It has to do with Muslim occupation of a Christian country, and Muslim conquest of Christian people, with assimilation into Islam by force. This is about the "sword of the Prophet" and nothing else. If your definition of upholding a higher moral standard is to lay down and allow Islam to butcher its way into the Balkans, then I guess my answer to you is: We have nothing to discuss.

[MariaRegina]

Has anyone read Kosovo Crisis: A study in foreign policy mismanagement?

It is written by a nuclear physicist and knowledgeable person, Vojin Kosimovich.

The Serbs have long been villianized by the West and do you know the main reason:
There is oil under Kosovo and the US is very greedy to help the Albanian terrorists gain that oil and share it with the USA.

So the USA led a campaign of lies by telling the world that genocide was being committed. However, does anyone here realize that there are different sects of Islam and that the different factions within Islam are killing each other?

Witness the atrocities being committed against the Kurds, which is an islamic sect.
Witness the bombings of mosques in Iraq by different sects of Islam.
Islam is fragmented and in Kosovo, some of those in the mass graves were victims of the Islamic sects, but the Islamic terrorists tried to pin the blame on the Christians.

There are many horror stories that will not reach the light of day.

Please do not be so quick to blame the Serbian Christians, but realize that a lot of lies have been told about the Serbians by the Clinton Administration in an effort to bomb and take Bosnia away from the Serbs.

Genocide has been committed and is ongoing by the Albanian terrorists.

[Thekla]

I'll assume you'd be singing the same tune, were all the details the same except:

1. The man in question were a Croat
2. The church in question were the Roman Catholic Church

hmmm, perhaps you have some bias showing ? ^_^

[Michael the Iconographer]

To the OP, what is the purpose of this thread? Are you here to play the Grand Inquisitor, Torquemade, and point fingers at the Holy Orthodox Faith? How would you like it if I came into your own home forum and did the same toward your own faith? If you are here for less than noble reasons I ask you to leave and not pass judgement on Orthodox Christianity. And to those Orthodox who in this thread passed judgement on the Serbian Church I say shame on you!!!

[MariaRegina]

Americans and the world were told a big lie.

Our government is not being truthful in many areas.

I have heard the stories of our US Soldiers in Kosovo.

Some became Orthodox when they saw the saintly monks being tortured and the bombing of the monasteries and churches..

[Thekla]

I'm just going with what major news outlets are saying (in this case "News Hour").

But the Roman Catholic Church does get criticized (and rightly so) for its actions (or lack of actions) during WWII and the Holocaust.

I was honestly seeing if the Orthodox Churches were upholding a higher moral and ethical standard in similar geopolitical straits.

given the glaring omissions in US news coverage, I wonder why you would automatically believe what you read. As mentioned, when SOC 'officials' took a stand against violence (and also warning Clinton about Milosevic) there was an absence of US news stories.

[buzuxi02]

They done the right thing by hiding him. The Hague is a sham.

[Rkman]

Don’t pay attention to original poster, he is Albanian Muslim. He should worry more about their own war criminals like Tachi, Haradinaj and others who are walking free in Kosovo rather then accuse Serbian OC on hearsay.

[ArnautDaniel]

Don’t pay attention to original poster, he is Albanian Muslim. He should worry more about their own war criminals like Tachi, Haradinaj and others who are walking free in Kosovo rather then accuse Serbian OC on hearsay.

Albanian muslim !?!

What? ^_^

Seriously though, I was asking an honest question, and I've gotten a clear answer.

[Rkman]

Albanian muslim !?!

What? ^_^

Seriously though, I was asking an honest question, and I've gotten a clear answer.

Who are you kidding? Arnaut means Albanian and judging by your faith icon you are not Christian.

[Thekla]

Albanian muslim !?!

What? ^_^

Seriously though, I was asking an honest question, and I've gotten a clear answer.

now, how did you come to like Francis Bacon, and what do you think of Chaim Soutine ?

[ArnautDaniel]

Who are you kidding? Arnaut means Albanian and judging by your faith icon you are not Christian.


Actually, "Arnaut Daniel" was a 12th century Occitan "troubadour" poet.

"leu sui Arnaut qu'amas l'aura
E chatz le lebre ab lo bou
E nadi contra suberna"

[ArnautDaniel]

now, how did you come to like Francis Bacon, and what do you think of Chaim Soutine ?

I was originally looking for the one with the ethereal baboon that I saw at MOMA in New York.

I'm not familiar with Chaim Soutine.

[Thekla]

I was originally looking for the one with the ethereal baboon that I saw at MOMA in New York.

I'm not familiar with Chaim Soutine.

Soutine precedes Bacon both thematically, with remarkable oils of sides of beef,and in color layering though in the latter the colors are presented absent the mixed washed overlayering effect.

I agree - Bacon does manage a shimmering ethereal effect on the canvas; Soutine's 'ethereal' effect is "off the canvas" and in the eye, imo. (note: you can search images Soutine for "Carcass of Beef" 1925)

[juliagreece]

Virtually all Serbians call themselves "Serbian Orthodox" - that does not mean that they are devout and practicing Orthodox Christians.

[juliagreece]

That is precisely the point I"m trying to make:doh:
This thread is not about Greeks. It is about people accusing the Serbian Orthodox Church of protecting Karadzic. So kindly leave your anti-Greek sentiments out of it.

[juliagreece]

I am defending the Serbian Orthodox Church!!!!
:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:

[juliagreece]

My close Serbian friends would probably be quite amused by the accusation of "Serb-bashing." You have taken what I said completely out of context!
Just because the people who protected Karadzic call themselves "Serbian Orthodox" does not mean that they are devout practicing Orthodox Christians" and it doesn't mean that the Serbian Orthodox Church is responsible for protecting him.

[Hoankan]

Closing for staff review and cool down.