What do you do when "faith" doesn't work?

[Jimbeaux]

What do we do when we tell somebody something will happen if they just exercise faith … and it doesn’t happen? Does the fault always lie with the person and never (gasp!) with the doctrine?

IMO, if faith doesn’t work out in our life experiences the way we say it will, it isn’t faith, it’s folklore. Discounting experience from faith is like separating hydrogen from oxygen and expecting water.

Signs (i.e., experience) will follow those who believe (i.e., have faith). Experience, if I read scripture correctly, validates faith (Mark 16.20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:20;&version=51;)). If it is faith, shouldn’t what is hoped for come to pass? If I “claim a scripture,” “confess a ‘promise’,” “speak to a need,” “take authority over unbelief,” and do a lot of other silly things that is passed off as “faith” and nothing happens, I do not need to justify a belief system that has falsely taught me it was “faith”—I need to trash it. Which is exactly what I did about a dozen years ago and have had a more fruitful (and reliable) faith ever since.

Like I always say, faith works. If it don’t work it ain’t faith.

What it is is a doctrine of men.

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[JimfromOhio]

Subscribing

I know my answer but I will not post until much later ;)

[ARBITER01]

What do we do when we tell somebody something will happen if they just exercise faith … and it doesn’t happen? Does the fault always lie with the person and never (gasp!) with the doctrine?

IMO, if faith doesn’t work out in our life experiences the way we say it will, it isn’t faith, it’s folklore. Discounting experience from faith is like separating hydrogen from oxygen and expecting water.

Signs (i.e., experience) will follow those who believe (i.e., have faith). Experience, if I read scripture correctly, validates faith (Mark 16.20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:20;&version=51;)). If it is faith, shouldn’t what is hoped for come to pass? If I “claim a scripture,” “confess a ‘promise’,” “speak to a need,” “take authority over unbelief,” and do a lot of other silly things that is passed off as “faith” and nothing happens, I do not need to justify a belief system that has falsely taught me it was “faith”—I need to trash it. Which is exactly what I did about a dozen years ago and have had a more fruitful (and reliable) faith ever since.

Like I always say, faith works. If it don’t work it ain’t faith.

What it is is a doctrine of men.


If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain




You did well to trash it, it was nothing more than a distraction like many are.

We live by the faith of The Son of GOD, not our own faith, hence why The Word said we could do nothing of our own.

We never hang onto something that has little to no results, and we certainly never hang onto something The Holy Spirit desires that we move away from. That is a part of obediance and coming out of the wilderness.

[pinetree]

What do we do when we tell somebody something will happen if they just exercise faith … and it doesn’t happen? Does the fault always lie with the person and never (gasp!) with the doctrine?

IMO, if faith doesn’t work out in our life experiences the way we say it will, it isn’t faith, it’s folklore. Discounting experience from faith is like separating hydrogen from oxygen and expecting water.

Signs (i.e., experience) will follow those who believe (i.e., have faith). Experience, if I read scripture correctly, validates faith (Mark 16.20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:20;&version=51;)). If it is faith, shouldn’t what is hoped for come to pass? If I “claim a scripture,” “confess a ‘promise’,” “speak to a need,” “take authority over unbelief,” and do a lot of other silly things that is passed off as “faith” and nothing happens, I do not need to justify a belief system that has falsely taught me it was “faith”—I need to trash it. Which is exactly what I did about a dozen years ago and have had a more fruitful (and reliable) faith ever since.

Like I always say, faith works. If it don’t work it ain’t faith.

What it is is a doctrine of men.


If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain


yup,and there are countless sick and poor saints on the earth.
So I vote,it is a false doctrine!:)

Not the fault of the saint,after all,he can only have the faith,and the amount of faith God gives..
Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.


Romans 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.


If God gives the faith,who is a man to question what God gives to our bretheren.?

[LeadWorship]

What do you do when "faith" doesn't work?
-You'll burn. At least that's what Nebuchadnezzar thought about Hannaniah, Mishael, and Azariah. Where was their faith - they said "Our God will save us, but if he doesn't we still won't bow".

Why do we have to recieve the kingdom of God like children? Because they haven't been tainted by experience. Their unbelief is almost non-existent. Why do children have nightmares? Because they believe what they see, they don't doubt everything that comes along. It's why we must protect them and ourselves from so many things.

[JimfromOhio]

What do you do when "faith" doesn't work?
-You'll burn. At least that's what Nebuchadnezzar thought about Hannaniah, Mishael, and Azariah. Where was their faith - they said "Our God will save us, but if he doesn't we still won't bow".

Why do we have to recieve the kingdom of God like children? Because they haven't been tainted by experience. Their unbelief is almost non-existent. Why do children have nightmares? Because they believe what they see, they don't doubt everything that comes along. It's why we must protect them and ourselves from so many things.

I knew that was coming. :P

[JimfromOhio]

What do you do when "faith" doesn't work?
-You'll burn. At least that's what Nebuchadnezzar thought about Hannaniah, Mishael, and Azariah. Where was their faith - they said "Our God will save us, but if he doesn't we still won't bow".

Why do we have to recieve the kingdom of God like children? Because they haven't been tainted by experience. Their unbelief is almost non-existent. Why do children have nightmares? Because they believe what they see, they don't doubt everything that comes along. It's why we must protect them and ourselves from so many things.
Daniel is one of my favorite Old Testament Books and reading the WHOLE books of Daniel explains the Sovereign of God. It was in God's will for those three to live however, there WERE many early Christians who died when they were thrown into the lions' den. How's early Christians' faith different than Hannaniah, Mishael, and Azariah's? Remember, Stephen was stoned to death and God didn't save him.

[razzelflabben]

Many people fear sickness, death, poverty, demons, etc. What I have learned over the years is to not fear these things, when we fear, we give power to the thing we fear. If you fear lack of faith, it is that lack of faith you give power. If you fear sickness, sickness has the power. Our goal is to give the power to God. Our fear is to be of God and God alone.

The point is this, a doctrine, any doctrine that plays off our fears and emotions to try and compel us to something, even a relationship with God or His healing power, is a false doctrine, plan and simple. When we seek and Love a God whose very presence is so awesome that we quake in fear when in that presence, and watch as He calms our fears and calls us sons, and friends, is giving Him power not the illness, or the poverty. It is His strength that overcomes it (note overcoming and healing are not always the same thing though sometimes they are) It is the touch of the supernatural over the natural the evidences for us that God is alive and well and at work in us. Problem is, we are so afraid to be sick, impoverished, suffering, that we give power to those things rather than to give power to the Living God.

No more in fear, but in Grace and Love.

[pinetree]

What do you do when "faith" doesn't work?
-You'll burn. At least that's what Nebuchadnezzar thought about Hannaniah, Mishael, and Azariah. Where was their faith - they said "Our God will save us, but if he doesn't we still won't bow".

Why do we have to recieve the kingdom of God like children? Because they haven't been tainted by experience. Their unbelief is almost non-existent. Why do children have nightmares? Because they believe what they see, they don't doubt everything that comes along. It's why we must protect them and ourselves from so many things.
look how small the seed is,We only need this tiny amount anyway,what is all the fuss?:D:P
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff253/douglasbass/mustard-seed.jpg

[Faithful Love]

If you go to the doctor and he gives you a prescription to make you well and you don't take it exactly as he prescribes it, whose fault is it if you don't get well - the doctor's? No... it is your fault because you didn't do it right.

[pinetree]

If you go to the doctor and he gives you a prescription to make you well and you don't take it exactly as he prescribes it, whose fault is it if you don't get well - the doctor's? No... it is your fault because you didn't do it right.
Instead of grace,where faith comes from anyway,it is not you producing faith.

[JimfromOhio]

If you go to the doctor and he gives you a prescription to make you well and you don't take it exactly as he prescribes it, whose fault is it if you don't get well - the doctor's? No... it is your fault because you didn't do it right.
Where does GRACE fit in? What you are saying is legalism of faith based on merit, not grace.

[~RENEE~]

What do you do when "faith" doesn't work?
Faith in God will always "work" maybe not in your timing. But God will NEVER fail.

[pdudgeon]

What do we do when we tell somebody something will happen if they just exercise faith … and it doesn’t happen? Does the fault always lie with the person and never (gasp!) with the doctrine?


ok, let's do some review work here.:)

in any given situation we have at least 3 variables and one constant.
we have
1, the person
2. the situation
3. prior experiences of that person
4. God and His word

add in that person's friends and you have one more variable.

exercising faith requires something/someone to trust in,
a willingness to believe,
and follow thru.

so if i believe that God will do something I first have to believe in God Himself.
secondly, I have to believe that He is able to perform what He says He will do.
third, i need to act on my belief. God cannot act for me.

but here i think is one of the key elements:
i am not trusting in the strength of my own faith, because faith cannot be measured like that.
Faith either is faith or it is doubt. Faith and doubt are like oil and water--they are different elements, they don't mix, and they come from a different source.
Faith always comes as a gift from God, while doubts always come as a lie, a delusion, and a binding from satan.

if i act on my faith in God, i will have the harvest of that faith.
if i act on my doubts then i will have that harvest of failure.

now let's get back to your original question.

What do we do when we tell somebody something will happen if they just exercise faith … and it doesn’t happen?

if that happens then we go back and look at each of the 4 elements to see where something went wrong.

1. look at the person--do they believe in God?
2. the situation--is what they were asking God for something that will bring glory and praise to Him?
3. prior experiences--have they ever experienced God's answer to prayer before? was it a positive or a negative experience.
4.God and His word--do their expectations line up with what God's word says.

every one of these 4 areas should be examined if the answer to their prayer is a 'no'.

most of the time it is an incomplete understanding of the word of God that is behind these 'no's', and not the fault of the doctrine.
God's directions are clear, and if we understand and follow them, they do work.

to put it another way..
if i look at a map and decide I want to get to point B, but later i decide not to go and thus never reach point B, is the map wrong?

or let's say i think i know a shortcut and take that instead, and wind up lost.
Did the map misdirect me? Can the map not be trusted?

so before anyone desides that it is "God's fault" (which it isn't ) or "man's fault" (which it isn't) find out where the misunderstanding happened, correct it, and then try again.

[JimfromOhio]

ok, let's do some review work here.:)

in any given situation we have at least 3 variables and one constant.
we have
1, the person
2. the situation
3. prior experiences of that person
4. God and His word

add in that person's friends and you have one more variable.

exercising faith requires something/someone to trust in,
a willingness to believe,
and follow thru.

so if i believe that God will do something I first have to believe in God Himself.
secondly, I have to believe that He is able to perform what He says He will do.
third, i need to act on my belief. God cannot act for me.

but here i think is one of the key elements:
i am not trusting in the strength of my own faith, because faith cannot be measured like that.
Faith either is faith or it is doubt. Faith and doubt are like oil and water--they are different elements, they don't mix, and they come from a different source.
Faith always comes as a gift from God, while doubts always come as a lie, a delusion, and a binding from satan.

if i act on my faith in God, i will have the harvest of that faith.
if i act on my doubts then i will have that harvest of failure.

now let's get back to your original question.



if that happens then we go back and look at each of the 4 elements to see where something went wrong.

1. look at the person--do they believe in God?
2. the situation--is what they were asking God for something that will bring glory and praise to Him?
3. prior experiences--have they ever experienced God's answer to prayer before? was it a positive or a negative experience.
4.God and His word--do their expectations line up with what God's word says.

every one of these 4 areas should be examined if the answer to their prayer is a 'no'.

most of the time it is an incomplete understanding of the word of God that is behind these 'no's', and not the fault of the doctrine.
God's directions are clear, and if we understand and follow them, they do work.

to put it another way..
if i look at a map and decide I want to get to point B, but later i decide not to go and thus never reach point B, is the map wrong?

or let's say i think i know a shortcut and take that instead, and wind up lost.
Did the map misdirect me? Can the map not be trusted?

so before anyone desides that it is "God's fault" (which it isn't ) or "man's fault" (which it isn't) find out where the misunderstanding happened, correct it, and then try again.
Where does "willing to believe" fit in with grace?

[Optimax]

What do we do when we tell somebody something will happen if they just exercise faith … and it doesn’t happen? Does the fault always lie with the person and never (gasp!) with the doctrine?

IMO, if faith doesn’t work out in our life experiences the way we say it will, it isn’t faith, it’s folklore. Discounting experience from faith is like separating hydrogen from oxygen and expecting water.

Signs (i.e., experience) will follow those who believe (i.e., have faith). Experience, if I read scripture correctly, validates faith (Mark 16.20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:20;&version=51;)). If it is faith, shouldn’t what is hoped for come to pass? If I “claim a scripture,” “confess a ‘promise’,” “speak to a need,” “take authority over unbelief,” and do a lot of other silly things that is passed off as “faith” and nothing happens, I do not need to justify a belief system that has falsely taught me it was “faith”—I need to trash it. Which is exactly what I did about a dozen years ago and have had a more fruitful (and reliable) faith ever since.

Like I always say, faith works. If it don’t work it ain’t faith.

What it is is a doctrine of men.

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



Exercised faith always works.

However, without an understanding of what faith is, how it works and how to work faith on purpose it can appear to faith.

That is because one person cannot tell when someone is actually in faith until a manifestation can be seen.

The manifestation can be what was being believed for or the opposite.

If what was being believed for was manifested then faith was exercised.

If the opposite then their was faith was not worked properly.

OK, now you can come back with the works thing.

Those that do will clearly show that they do not know what faith is, and how it works. Much less how to do faith on purpose.

[Jimbeaux]

If you go to the doctor and he gives you a prescription to make you well and you don't take it exactly as he prescribes it, whose fault is it if you don't get well - the doctor's? No... it is your fault because you didn't do it right.

Aha! And maybe that is why WOF is no more successful in healing the sick than any other P/C in this forum.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[~RENEE~]

Aha! And maybe that is why WOF is no more successful in healing the sick than any other P/C in this forum.

~Jim


If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain


you see that's the problem you're looking to the people to heal. When the healer is God.

[Optimax]

Aha! And maybe that is why WOF is no more successful in healing the sick than any other P/C in this forum.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain




There you go again!

Making off the wall statements that you do not have the knowledge of to back up.

What makes you think that you know that?

[JimfromOhio]

Exercised faith always works.

However, without an understanding of what faith is, how it works and how to work faith on purpose it can appear to faith.

That is because one person cannot tell when someone is actually in faith until a manifestation can be seen.

The manifestation can be what was being believed for or the opposite.

If what was being believed for was manifested then faith was exercised.

If the opposite then their was faith was not worked properly.

OK, now you can come back with the works thing.

Those that do will clearly show that they do not know what faith is, and how it works. Much less how to do faith on purpose.

Very legalism explanation. That's what I am seeing.

[JimfromOhio]

you see that's the problem you're looking to the people to heal. When the healer is God.
People are looking at the Healer to be healed, not to do what God wants us to do.

[Optimax]

Very legalism explanation. That's what I am seeing.

Your response also shows that you have no concept of what faith is, how it works, nor how to do faith on purpose.

[Jimbeaux]

There you go again!

Making off the wall statements that you do not have the knowledge of to back up.

What makes you think that you know that?

Because I once wuz one. In fact, in all the hundreds of WOF meetings I have attended through the years I heard a lot of talk about healing and prosperity but never noticed that any more prospered (except the ones with the big sucker mailing list) or were healed any more than anyone else. I came to believe that their talk was bigger than their walk and bailed out. Still do.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Optimax]

Because I once wuz one. In fact, in all the hundreds of WOF meetings I have attended through the years I heard a lot of talk about healing and prosperity but never noticed that any more prospered (except the ones with the big sucker mailing list) or were healed any more than anyone else. I came to believe that their talk was bigger than their walk and bailed out. Still do.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain




Strange that!

In all the hundreds of WOF meetings, conventions, seminars, etc., I have attended over the years I have seen the opposite.

[JimfromOhio]

Strange that!

In all the hundreds of WOF meetings, conventions, seminars, etc., I have attended over the years I have seen the opposite.
Days later I have seen those who were supposely healed are back to their old self again. You may have seen where you have attended but you probably have not seen after the fact.

[Optimax]

Days later I have seen those who were supposely healed are back to their old self again. You may have seen where you have attended but you probably have not seen after the fact.

Now there you go doing the same thing Jim did.

What makes you think that you know what I have seen and the results.

That is very unwise to make such assertions about something that you have no knowledge about.

[probinson]

The old "I was WoF, so I know" argument.

Gotta love it.

Don't even waste your breath, Optimax. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, and you probably didn't even see what you think you saw, and if you did see what you think you saw, you probably saw incorrectly what you thought you'd seen.

See how simple? :D

[Jimbeaux]

Strange that!

In all the hundreds of WOF meetings, conventions, seminars, etc., I have attended over the years I have seen the opposite.

I am not saying I have not seen any healings in WOF meetings. Anyone who prays for the sick will see healing. And I have seen some healings in WOF meetings, but not any more than any other P/C group.

But I do have a frame of reference. I was Pentecostal (10 or so years), the Pentecostal-Charismatic (another 10), then (oops!) Word of Faith (yet another 10), then back to P/C until I discovered Vineyard, which suits me better than any of the aforementioned (but that’s JMO). So I have a frame of reference to make comparisons. Healings happened in them all but with no more or less frequency than with any of the other.

How 'bout you? What is your expereince?

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Optimax]

The old "I was WoF, so I know" argument.

Gotta love it.

Don't even waste your breath, Optimax. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, and you probably didn't even see what you think you saw, and if you did see what you think you saw, you probably saw incorrectly what you thought you'd seen.

See how simple? :D


Isn't it hilarious!

Like a room full of people that know that 2 + 2 = 4, listening to a few try to convince that 2 + 2 = 5.

[pdudgeon]

How 'bout you? What is your expereince?

24 years Methodist- no healings, 3 years Episcopal- 2 healings,
5 years charismatic- 1 healing, 3 years WOF- at least 30 healings

[Optimax]

i can't attest to 100's of healings but i can attest to at least two personally.:thumbsup: ( and quite a few more illnesses that i refused to have).


Amen!!

I have refused a few myself.

[pdudgeon]

yep, and thinking back on those experiences i can see that the difference was not that those people didn't believe in God or that He healed in the bible times. they just never thought to pray for healing in the here and now. :doh:

they were far too busy being resigned and praying for God's will to be done to stop and think about what His will actually was, and praying for that specifically.

(in other words, they never asked for healing because it was beyond their comprehension that He might do it.):sorry:

[Angel*Eyes]

If it is faith, shouldn’t what is hoped for come to pass? If I “claim a scripture,” “confess a ‘promise’,” “speak to a need,” “take authority over unbelief,” and do a lot of other silly things that is passed off as “faith” and nothing happens




When you use the phrase 'nothing happens' are you talking about if nothing happens immediately? after 2 years?

What is your timeline when it comes to waiting for something to come to pass?

[Jimbeaux]

When you use the phrase 'nothing happens' are you talking about if nothing happens immediately? after 2 years?

What is your timeline when it comes to waiting for something to come to pass?

Well, let’s say it is a prayer for God to heal a terminally ill patient and they die (something that happens every day). I would say that the “nothing happens” would apply to that. The "timeline" had run out.

Of course, every time we pray something happens. In the case above, God said No.

Right now I am praying for a friend who seems to be sinking deeper and deeper toward financial disaster. I have lent (looks like it’s given) them hundreds (maybe thousands) of dollars to bail them out. The last time I was tempted to throw some more money down that hole, the Lord told me not to do it. He told me that I was interfering with what He was doing in the man’s life. All my prayers for their financial recovery was subject to what the Lord was doing in their life. Now I pray “Thy will be done” for the family.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[NewSong]

In response to the initial post here, I will tell you what I do...I was used to getting my own way with God....He pretty much answered every prayer I prayed and gave me the desires of my heart. The first time I thought my faith failed was the most devestating time of my life. I don't think I am the same. I have had a very hard time making my way back to an intimacy with God again. I felt violated and let down. I felt like HE didn't protect me and allowed something horrible to take me hostage. I felt like he lined up all these enemies and made me the target and I was shattered. I still have a hard time telling Him I love Him. I am very fearful of being intimate with God as I knew once before.........My life was devestated....

Now that I look back and even still have a lot of horrible pain for the experience that I prefer not to mention.......I think WHY GOD? Some of it I have answers to and some of it I don't. What I try to hang on to are the words in job...."Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him." I think it was my first revelation that God is sovereign and that I may have done nothing wrong but He just does things the way HE does because He is God. It is now up to me to accept Him the way He is and trust Him in the storms. It was easy to trust Him when I wasn't challenged!!! So, I have asked God to find me tried and true to HIM. I want to decrease so HE may increase in my life and be glorified ..no revelling in me anymore. Bless the Lord all my soul and all that is within me I want to BLESS HIS HOLY name. I never want to forget how He has rescued me from the horrible pits of destruction and is teaching me to walk! Let me be a good student.. I pray my faith don't fail!!! It is feeble but it is there!

[Angel*Eyes]

Well, let’s say it is a prayer for God to heal a terminally ill patient and they die (something that happens every day). I would say that the “nothing happens” would apply to that. The "timeline" had run out.



I am referring to cases where a person is still living but has been waiting for years to be healed.

[JimfromOhio]

I am referring to cases where a person is still living but has been waiting for years to be healed.
I was born deaf and still not healed after 49 years. I have posted how to respond in faith whenever we are not healed in the past but was pushed aside by those who believe in extreme faith healing. :wave:

[JimfromOhio]

However, I have seen healings of other people, still I don't get jealous, or covet or anything. Just simply TRUST His decisions.

[Tamara224]

The old "I was WoF, so I know" argument.



Right, because first-hand experience means nothing, apparently.

Oh, that's right. Experience doesn't count. We don't believe what we see or hear, we only believe what the Bible tells us. :doh:

It doesn't matter how many offline WoF preachers preach something, if the WoFers on Christian Forums claim otherwise, then WoF doesn't actually stand for that thing.

Having been WoF previously means nothing. Having listened to WoF preachers on TV means nothing. Having been a WoF teacher means nothing.

We must all submit to what the CF WoFers claim is WoF and NEVER bring up our own real-life experiences.

Jim and Jim... I can't believe you are still bringing up your personal experiences on this forum!!! Don't you know that only the WoFers here on CF can say what all WoFers believe and preach?!

[Angel*Eyes]

Right now I am praying for a friend who seems to be sinking deeper and deeper toward financial disaster. I have lent (looks like it’s given) them hundreds (maybe thousands) of dollars to bail them out. The last time I was tempted to throw some more money down that hole, the Lord told me not to do it. He told me that I was interfering with what He was doing in the man’s life. All my prayers for their financial recovery was subject to what the Lord was doing in their life. Now I pray “Thy will be done” for the family.

I recently heard a prophetic word, that God is trying to break people's reliance on man and have them have true faith.True faith is when you have no visible resources of help available and rely on God alone to supply your needs.


I have a relative in a similar situation and people have stopped loaning him money.In a sermon at church, God let him no that He was allowing this so he would trust HIm alone. God could use others to help him, but he has to first learn to seek first the kingdom of God.


God wants him to put FAITH into HIM and not into man. As long as he received help for man, he wouldn't put his FAITH into God ALONE.

[JimfromOhio]

:sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry:Jim and Jim... I can't believe you are still bringing up your personal experiences on this forum!!! Don't you know that only the WoFers here on CF can say what all WoFers believe and preach?!
:sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry:

:D

[pinetree]

When you use the phrase 'nothing happens' are you talking about if nothing happens immediately? after 2 years?

What is your timeline when it comes to waiting for something to come to pass?

ya know sis,on the other thread,I asked you to please explain how we activate our faith,but maybe you forgot to explain:),so could you now.


I said a typical scenario,you know the one..

they asked Jesus,they have a mustard seed of faith,they meditated in the word,they had hands layed on them,yet years later still sick,or poor for that matter.

Could you please explain how to activate their faith,:)

[Optimax]

Right, because first-hand experience means nothing, apparently.

Oh, that's right. Experience doesn't count. We don't believe what we see or hear, we only believe what the Bible tells us. :doh:

It doesn't matter how many offline WoF preachers preach something, if the WoFers on Christian Forums claim otherwise, then WoF doesn't actually stand for that thing.

Having been WoF previously means nothing. Having listened to WoF preachers on TV means nothing. Having been a WoF teacher means nothing.

We must all submit to what the CF WoFers claim is WoF and NEVER bring up our own real-life experiences.

Jim and Jim... I can't believe you are still bringing up your personal experiences on this forum!!! Don't you know that only the WoFers here on CF can say what all WoFers believe and preach?!

I am glad you brought this up.

It is a perfect example of people who listen but do not hear, nor understand.

Then go away and proclaim that their experience and knowledge is greater than God, thereby proving God to be a liar(in their opinions) and not able to perform what He said.

Some on the other hand stay with it even though it might appear at times "not to work" until understanding comes proving that God is not a liar and can and will perform what he promised.

[pinetree]

Right, because first-hand experience means nothing, apparently.

Oh, that's right. Experience doesn't count. We don't believe what we see or hear, we only believe what the Bible tells us. :doh:

It doesn't matter how many offline WoF preachers preach something, if the WoFers on Christian Forums claim otherwise, then WoF doesn't actually stand for that thing.

Having been WoF previously means nothing. Having listened to WoF preachers on TV means nothing. Having been a WoF teacher means nothing.

We must all submit to what the CF WoFers claim is WoF and NEVER bring up our own real-life experiences.

Jim and Jim... I can't believe you are still bringing up your personal experiences on this forum!!! Don't you know that only the WoFers here on CF can say what all WoFers believe and preach?!
good point .I guess Jims experience according to wof does not matter.

Can you imagine all the thousands of ill or financially burdened saints across the globe,that disproove wof formula doctrine!

I guess all those saints,are controlled by the devil,or have no faith.

The early church sure suffered alot,those faithless ones..;)

[pinetree]

yep, and thinking back on those experiences i can see that the difference was not that those people didn't believe in God or that He healed in the bible times. they just never thought to pray for healing in the here and now. :doh:

they were far too busy being resigned and praying for God's will to be done to stop and think about what His will actually was, and praying for that specifically.

(in other words, they never asked for healing because it was beyond their comprehension that He might do it.):sorry:
yup,your right;),all those unhealed saints never asked God to heal them..Like you were there with all of them.:doh:

Boy you guys sure got the inside on all the workings of Jesus.:thumbsup:^_^^_^^_^

[pinetree]

I am glad you brought this up.

It is a perfect example of people who listen but do not hear, nor understand.

Then go away and proclaim that their experience and knowledge is greater than God, thereby proving God to be a liar(in their opinions) and not able to perform what He said.

Some on the other hand stay with it even though it might appear at times "not to work" until understanding comes proving that God is not a liar and can and will perform what he promised.
Here is a list of others who don't understand..
Oral Roberts wears a pacemaker.
Kenneth Hagin (who has made the most outlandish statements regarding guaranteed healing for believers) died unhealed Sept.19,. 2003 in the cardiac intensive care unit of a Tulsa hospital after suffering a heart attack. Hagin’s sister had previously died unhealed of cancer.
Buddy Harrison Hagin’s son-in-law and founder of Harrison House Publishing, the largest disseminator of the PHIA doctrine, died of unhealed cancer in December 1999.

E.W. Kenyon died in 1948 while in a unhealed comatose cancerous state.

Charles Capps wife, Beverly, is under constant psychiatric care and uses meds to maintain unhealed emotional balance.

Kathryn Kuhlman died of unhealed heart failure in 1976 after suffering from a heart condition for twenty years.

Joyce Meyers has been medically treated for unhealed breast cancer.

John Osteen, although his wife Dodie was miraculously healed of liver cancer in the mid-1980s, himself died in a hospital of an unhealed heart condition. Osteen had suffered numerous unhealed medical problems.

Frederick Price’s wife, Betty, has undergone chemotherapy.

T.L. Osborne’s wife, Daisy, died in 1995 of unhealed cancer.

Rod Parsley has had back surgery and his son Austin suffers from Asperger's syndrome, a form of autism.

R.W. Shambach has had quadruple bypass surgery.

William Branham died in 1965, at age 56, from complication following an automobile accident.

A.A. Allen died of in San Francisco in1970 of sclerosis of the liver (brought on by alcohol toxicity) and cardiac arrest.

Jack Coe died in 1956 of unhealed polio.

Robert Kelso Carter, the father and originator of the modern physical-healing-is-in-the-atonement-doctrine (c.1884 with the book The Atonement for Sin and Sickness), died of tuberculosis in 1898. To his credit, he recanted the atonement-for-sickness doctrine after seeing its lack of effectiveness and being unable to adequate answer its challenges in his book Faith Healing Reviewed After Twenty Years, returning to medical school, and setting up a medical practice in Baltimore in 1895. He wrote the song, “Standing On the Promises.” Here’s a bio of Carter-click here (http://healingandrevival.com/BioRKCarter.htm).

[Angel*Eyes]

Oftentimes, Faith doesn't work because we limit HOW God wants to do something.


Most people just want the INSTANEOUS or the MIRACULOUS to happen. We give up when that doesn't happen. So, we MISS what God wants to do by closing our ears to HOW God might actually want to heal us.

It is CRUCIAL to have an open ear to hear God give us direction
i.e. change diet, go to a doctor so God can work via some sort of divine connection, lays hands on the person,etc.

[Angel*Eyes]

EXAMPLE:

There was a lady with multiple sclerosis who daily spoke healing scriptures and NOTHING HAPPENED.

While sitting still one day, she heard God say eat turkey, drink carrot juice,
and do a few other things ( I can't remember what else- maybe a probiotic). She could have easily stopped speaking scripture or assumed it wasn't God's will to heal her.

Recently, I heard some medical researchers talking about how there is something in turkey that helps MS ( I can't recall what it is). So, researchers are going to work on a medication using the beneficial element in turkey to help heal MS.

Researchers are now discovering something that God spoke to a woman years ago!!

So, people should not give up when nothing happens. Instead, they should listen to God for instruction.

[Angel*Eyes]

Could you please explain how to activate their faith,:)

I wished there was a set Formula.

Faith is simply activated by discerning God's will
{I.e. If I have financial problems ... It would be silly to have faith in God to send someone to give me thousands of dollars when He might want me to change my spending habits or have me start a business}& resting on grace & the faith of God in us, and trusting Him to bring the promise to pass.

[ARBITER01]

Right, because first-hand experience means nothing, apparently.

Oh, that's right. Experience doesn't count. We don't believe what we see or hear, we only believe what the Bible tells us. :doh:

It doesn't matter how many offline WoF preachers preach something, if the WoFers on Christian Forums claim otherwise, then WoF doesn't actually stand for that thing.

Having been WoF previously means nothing. Having listened to WoF preachers on TV means nothing. Having been a WoF teacher means nothing.

We must all submit to what the CF WoFers claim is WoF and NEVER bring up our own real-life experiences.

Jim and Jim... I can't believe you are still bringing up your personal experiences on this forum!!! Don't you know that only the WoFers here on CF can say what all WoFers believe and preach?!


Lol,.. that seems to be the case. I guess The Holy Spirit only speaks to the wof crowd huh?

[ARBITER01]

EXAMPLE:

There was a lady with multiple sclerosis who daily spoke healing scriptures and NOTHING HAPPENED.

While sitting still one day, she heard God say eat turkey
and do a few other things ( I can't remember what else- maybe a probiotic). She could have easily stopped speaking scripture or assumed it wasn't God's will to heal her.

Recently, I heard some medical researchers talking about how there is something in turkey that helps MS ( I can't recall what it is). So, researchers are going to work on a medication using the beneficial element in turkey to help heal MS.

Researchers are now discovering something that God spoke to a woman years ago!!

So, people should not give up when nothing happens. Instead, they should listen to God for instruction.


Right there,..... you touched on what true faith is, a relationship.

When we have a true relationship with GOD, we will hear hear HIM speak and feel the leading in our spirits from The Holy Spirit, and HE will know our needs and thoughts and act upon them. There have been many times that GOD did things in response to a thought I had about something, and I didn't even ask GOD about it.

Faith is part of that relationship.

[probinson]

Right, because first-hand experience means nothing, apparently.
Apparently not, because you're talking to someone with over 30 years of first-hand experience. But hey, both Jims say otherwise, so the fact that I've had 3x as much "first-hand experience" as Jimbeaux and perhaps exponentially more experience than JFO is somehow irrelevant.

Oh, that's right. Experience doesn't count. We don't believe what we see or hear, we only believe what the Bible tells us. :doh:

It doesn't matter how many offline WoF preachers preach something, if the WoFers on Christian Forums claim otherwise, then WoF doesn't actually stand for that thing.

Having been WoF previously means nothing. Having listened to WoF preachers on TV means nothing. Having been a WoF teacher means nothing.

We must all submit to what the CF WoFers claim is WoF and NEVER bring up our own real-life experiences.

Jim and Jim... I can't believe you are still bringing up your personal experiences on this forum!!! Don't you know that only the WoFers here on CF can say what all WoFers believe and preach?!
Wait... Don't tell me... That was sarcasm too, right? :P

Here, let me try...

JimfromOhio told us in another thread of his very short experience, a very very long time ago with WOF. Certainly he must be the authority, and not the WOF believers on this forum that have heard and lived it for decades. :doh:

How was that? :P

People want to post their experiences from 30 years ago when they were in a WoF church for 3 months? (Disclaimer: since I've never seen JFO give specifics about his foray into WOF, I made those numbers up) Wonderful. But don't be surprised when people don't put a whole lot of stock in that experience.


:cool:

[probinson]

Right there,..... you touched on what true faith is, a relationship.
Exactly.

It might shock you to know that I (and most WoFers I know) agree with that. :cool:

[ARBITER01]

Exactly.

It might shock you to know that I (and most WoFers I know) agree with that. :cool:

Yet,............. you and your other Wofer friends want people to take charge and act on their own faith in situations instead of in obediance to the faith of The Son of GOD?!?


You may agree with me in an area Pete, but you and your friends will continue to teach people differently from that area of agreement we have.

[probinson]

Yet,............. you and your other Wofer friends want people to take charge and act on their own faith in situations instead of in obediance to the faith of The Son of GOD?!?
No, actually I don't believe that.

But my past experience with you has shown me that you clearly don't care what I ACTUALLY believe and are only interested in your perception of what I believe, so I'll save my breath, and you can keep on thinking whatever it is you think I believe.

:cool:

[ARBITER01]

No, actually I don't believe that.

But my past experience with you has shown me that you clearly don't care what I ACTUALLY believe and are only interested in your perception of what I believe, so I'll save my breath, and you can keep on thinking whatever it is you think I believe.

:cool:

Oh,... that's right, you have a modified version of WOF, you don't necessarily agree with the Copelands, or people here, or anyone on TBN, yet you still agree with them and the doctrines they support and teach.

Sure Pete.

[~RENEE~]

Yet,............. you and your other Wofer friends want people to take charge and act on their own faith in situations instead of in obediance to the faith of The Son of GOD?!?


You may agree with me in an area Pete, but you and your friends will continue to teach people differently from that area of agreement we have.You are so funny.

[ARBITER01]

You are so funny.

Bandwagon?

[Tamara224]

I am glad you brought this up.

It is a perfect example of people who listen but do not hear, nor understand.

Then go away and proclaim that their experience and knowledge is greater than God, thereby proving God to be a liar(in their opinions) and not able to perform what He said.

Some on the other hand stay with it even though it might appear at times "not to work" until understanding comes proving that God is not a liar and can and will perform what he promised.


Ah, the next standard argument. When denying reality and real life experience fails to work, then pull out the "you just don't understand" card.

Yes, everyone but WoFers just lacks understanding. If we but had the same level of revelation that you all do, we'd agree with you.

And if all else fails, accuse your opponent of calling God a liar.

Whatever it takes to discredit your opponent rather than face the real issues, the real challenges.

So predictable. So illogical. :sigh:

[Faithful Love]

Your response also shows that you have no concept of what faith is, how it works, nor how to do faith on purpose.


Amen.

There is a very misunderstood doctrine of grace being promoted here.

It seems most think they can just sit on the sofa eating bon-bons and God will magically do it all.

The Word is full of conditions. Conditions are very graceful.

[GQ Chris]

So what exactly is Faith? I just want to know so that I can explain this to someone in my own words.

[ARBITER01]

So what exactly is Faith? I just want to know so that I can explain this to someone in my own words.

Faith is a revealed knowledge inside our spirits from GOD. It can be a lasting faith, where we know we can continually do something from that given point forward, or a momentary faith that has GOD moving through an us for the healing of another.

It originates from GOD and is continually perfected by HIM in our relationship with Jesus, hence the scripture "we live by the faith of The Son of GOD."

Those that desire to operate in the power gifts will be taught this aspect of the Christian life and many others so they can walk in that realm of faith that Jesus walked in. It requires complete reliance upon The Holy Spirit's leadings inside.

GOD's power gifts are designed where we can not manipulate them or GOD for our own personal benefit and glory, hence why you see many disagreeing with the idea that a person can step out in their own faith to operate in them whenever.

[FoundInGrace]

What do we do when we tell somebody something will happen if they just exercise faith … and it doesn’t happen? Does the fault always lie with the person and never (gasp!) with the doctrine?

IMO, if faith doesn’t work out in our life experiences the way we say it will, it isn’t faith, it’s folklore. Discounting experience from faith is like separating hydrogen from oxygen and expecting water.

Signs (i.e., experience) will follow those who believe (i.e., have faith). Experience, if I read scripture correctly, validates faith (Mark 16.20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:20;&version=51;)). If it is faith, shouldn’t what is hoped for come to pass? If I “claim a scripture,” “confess a ‘promise’,” “speak to a need,” “take authority over unbelief,” and do a lot of other silly things that is passed off as “faith” and nothing happens, I do not need to justify a belief system that has falsely taught me it was “faith”—I need to trash it. Which is exactly what I did about a dozen years ago and have had a more fruitful (and reliable) faith ever since.

Like I always say, faith works. If it don’t work it ain’t faith.

What it is is a doctrine of men.

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



Say thank goodness I don't have to keep trying to get 'it' right anymore, whatever 'it' is supposed to be and can just live my life doing the best I know how and leave the rest to God to do what He wants.

well, that was my personal reaction and the faith in God I've had since has also been more real and solid as a result.
Idon't discount those years of trying to get 'it' just right though because I learnt it's not up to me trying to achieve something that will get results faith isn't about that at all so that was good.

[Jimbeaux]

Faith is a revealed knowledge inside our spirits from GOD.

*****

Isn't this is called Gnosticism?

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[probinson]

Oh,... that's right, you have a modified version of WOF, you don't necessarily agree with the Copelands, or people here, or anyone on TBN, yet you still agree with them and the doctrines they support and teach.

Sure Pete.
Did you just call me a liar?

So, in your mind, it's impossible for me to believe things for myself and still call myself WoF, unless I agree with the Copeland's, and someone on TBN?

Holy stereotype, Batman!

It might interest you to know that I have never heard the Copeland's preach. Ever. It might also interest you to know that I very rarely (if ever) watch TBN.

Someone as in tune with the Spirit, as you claim to be, surely should have known that.

:cool:

[ARBITER01]

Isn't this is called Gnosticism?

~Jim


If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



No, not at all.

Example,..


Gal 2:2 (NKJV) And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain.


Paul was given knowledge by revelation inside his spirit to know what GOD wanted him to do next. GOD communicates with our spirit by The Holy Spirit within us, and this is an operation of faith, we receive the knowledge to lay our hands on a person and GOD will heal them, or to know to speak out a certain phrase over a person and they will be set free of their ailments. It is this "knowing" inside from GOD that we obey.

That is the leading of The Holy Spirit, and it was how The Lord Jesus moved in power. GOD did things through Him to touch others and still does things through Him with us as His representative body here on earth.

[ARBITER01]

Did you just call me a liar?

So, in your mind, it's impossible for me to believe things for myself and still call myself WoF, unless I agree with the Copeland's, and someone on TBN?

Holy stereotype, Batman!

It might interest you to know that I have never heard the Copeland's preach. Ever. It might also interest you to know that I very rarely (if ever) watch TBN.

Someone as in tune with the Spirit, as you claim to be, surely should have known that.

:cool:

Sure Pete, your form of WOF is different somehow.

[TheBloodOfJesus]

It is a subtle lie of the devil to say that "faith does not work."

Faith always works. Without exception. Jesus said if you can believe, all things are possible to them that believe. That is still true. The only place the word "if" exists is in the phrase "if you can believe." There are many cases where you cannot believe. There are things that you cannot believe for. Your spirit simply does not have the ability/functionality to believe just anything you want it to. It is also a subtle lie of the devil to suggest that there is something wrong with a Christian who does not believe a thing. There is no fault involved and to suggest there is something wrong with the Christian is just the devil lying and trying to get the Christian into real doubt and unbelief.
Faith is not something that can be "exercised" at your will. Either God has given you faith or He has not. If He has then you will have faith. If He has not, then you will not have faith. You cannot fluff up some faith from nothing, nor can you say faith into existance. You can say something a billion times... but if the faith is not already there, then you are speaking into the wind.
Where the OP misses it is in the area of doubt. While someone may have spiritual faith... it is possible to short cuicuit that faith with mental doubts. For instance, you may have faith for a thing.. but you then go around denying it by saying the opposite of what you believe. Jesus said you would have what you say. So it is true that many have faith, but their mouth ruins it. It would be better to just shut up. But it is best to side with God and His word. It is best to "confess your faith." That means to "say the same thing" as what your faith believes.

But faith ALWAYS works. It never fails. Jesus is always right.








What do we do when we tell somebody something will happen if they just exercise faith … and it doesn’t happen? Does the fault always lie with the person and never (gasp!) with the doctrine?

IMO, if faith doesn’t work out in our life experiences the way we say it will, it isn’t faith, it’s folklore. Discounting experience from faith is like separating hydrogen from oxygen and expecting water.

Signs (i.e., experience) will follow those who believe (i.e., have faith). Experience, if I read scripture correctly, validates faith (Mark 16.20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:20;&version=51;)). If it is faith, shouldn’t what is hoped for come to pass? If I “claim a scripture,” “confess a ‘promise’,” “speak to a need,” “take authority over unbelief,” and do a lot of other silly things that is passed off as “faith” and nothing happens, I do not need to justify a belief system that has falsely taught me it was “faith”—I need to trash it. Which is exactly what I did about a dozen years ago and have had a more fruitful (and reliable) faith ever since.

Like I always say, faith works. If it don’t work it ain’t faith.

What it is is a doctrine of men.


If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[pinetree]

Isn't this is called Gnosticism?

~Jim


If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain




Paul seemed to rely on grace,and revelation.:)

Galations 1:11,12 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Paul received the gospel by revelation.


Luke 2:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=2&verse=32&version=31&context=verse)
a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel."

Revelation from God,seems to be the origin of knowing what God is saying.

Galatians 2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=2&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain.

paul was led by revelation


John 16:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=16&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.





Ephesians 1:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=1&verse=17&version=31&context=verse)
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know
him better.


Be not carried away with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace,not by ceremonial foods,which are of no value to those who eat them. Heb 13:9


grace helps against false doctrine too.

[Optimax]

Ah, the next standard argument. When denying reality and real life experience fails to work, then pull out the "you just don't understand" card.

Yes, everyone but WoFers just lacks understanding. If we but had the same level of revelation that you all do, we'd agree with you.

And if all else fails, accuse your opponent of calling God a liar.

Whatever it takes to discredit your opponent rather than face the real issues, the real challenges.

So predictable. So illogical. :sigh:


A person hears the gospel preached about Jesus and gets born again.

They could not explain nor would they even know the process that occurred when they were saved.

They would not know it was by faith. They do not know what faith is, how it works, they surely could not do faith on purpose.

Most Christians go through life and never learn the process. The same process we call "by faith" also results in healing, and other manifestations of the blessings(grace) of God, available to every Christian.

BTW: Available does not mean automatic or guaranteed.

[Tamara224]

A person hears the gospel preached about Jesus and gets born again.

They could not explain nor would they even know the process that occurred when they were saved.

They would not know it was by faith. They do not know what faith is, how it works, they surely could not do faith on purpose.

Most Christians go through life and never learn the process. The same process we call "by faith" also results in healing, and other manifestations of the blessings(grace) of God, available to every Christian.

BTW: Available does not mean automatic or guaranteed.


So? What's your point? Do we need to know "the process" in order for it to work?

The person in your scenario (which I will accept solely for the argument's sake) didn't know how faith worked to save him/her but still got saved.

So why do we need to know the formula in order to receive anything else?


This may come as a really big shock to you, so brace yourself (and I will also brace myself for the flames that are surely coming my way and the post from Pete telling me he's been in the same WoF church for 20 years and he understands what is being preached).

You go around saying everyone else just doesn't understand.

Well, IMO, it's you who doesn't understand what you're talking about. You just think you do. It's all real fancy sounding and even plausible on the surface. But scratch below the surface by, for example, seeing how it plays out in reality, and this special understanding of the process that you think you have is revealed as nothing more than man-made formulas trying to express a mystery that hasn't been completely revealed to us and is really of little importance, practically speaking.

[Angel*Eyes]

Right there,..... you touched on what true faith is, a relationship.

When we have a true relationship with GOD, we will hear hear HIM speak and feel the leading in our spirits from The Holy Spirit, and HE will know our needs and thoughts and act upon them. There have been many times that GOD did things in response to a thought I had about something, and I didn't even ask GOD about it.

Faith is part of that relationship.

I agree. It is all about relationship.

[TheBloodOfJesus]

Did you just call me a liar?

So, in your mind, it's impossible for me to believe things for myself and still call myself WoF, unless I agree with the Copeland's, and someone on TBN?

Holy stereotype, Batman!

It might interest you to know that I have never heard the Copeland's preach. Ever. It might also interest you to know that I very rarely (if ever) watch TBN.

Someone as in tune with the Spirit, as you claim to be, surely should have known that.

:cool:
WHAT!!!!!
You mean you can agree with one thing a person says, and yet not everything they say!!!! GASP! What a novel concept. What a revolutionary idea!
You mean you can disagree with Martin Luther about slavery, but still agree with him about savlation by faith????!!!
Boy that sure lets a lot of people off the heresy hunters hook. They count on that guilt by association you know.:D
They are more interested in making you wrong than they are in making you right.
Nuff said.

[probinson]

(and I will also brace myself for the flames that are surely coming my way and the post from Pete telling me he's been in the same WoF church for 20 years and he understands what is being preached).
Awesome! I get a personal mention in your post! :D

BTW, that's 30 years in the same WoF church, for those who are keeping score.

:cool:

[GrapeGirl]

When my faith doesn't work I get mad. First at God, then at myself. Then I settle for frustrated. It is then that I can begin to form questions to ask as to why it didn't work. Then I can study the bible thing and read what Jesus says about it. Then I fight about it with Danny for 3 days. Then I conclude that what I believed was wrong. Then I study some more. Then I believe something else. Then I try that out. And if that doesn't work, I repeat the process. If it does work, then I keep that one and move on to something else......


Isn't that what we're supposed to do?

[Angel*Eyes]

Well, let’s say it is a prayer for God to heal a terminally ill patient and they die (something that happens every day). I would say that the “nothing happens” would apply to that. The "timeline" had run out.
Of course, every time we pray something happens. In the case above, God said No.


If God says NO that isn't saying that faith doesn't work but it shows a misplaced faith.

People should first discern God's Will then rest on faith!

Too often christians believe for something then try to figure out the Will of God. That is a backward way of doing it.


Also, would you say that a person's faith isn't working if they'e been sick for a long time? Would you tell one of your church members to just accept the fact that God doesn't want to heal them?

[Optimax]

So? What's your point? Do we need to know "the process" in order for it to work?

The person in your scenario (which I will accept solely for the argument's sake) didn't know how faith worked to save him/her but still got saved.

So why do we need to know the formula in order to receive anything else?


This may come as a really big shock to you, so brace yourself (and I will also brace myself for the flames that are surely coming my way and the post from Pete telling me he's been in the same WoF church for 20 years and he understands what is being preached).

You go around saying everyone else just doesn't understand.

Well, IMO, it's you who doesn't understand what you're talking about. You just think you do. It's all real fancy sounding and even plausible on the surface. But scratch below the surface by, for example, seeing how it plays out in reality, and this special understanding of the process that you think you have is revealed as nothing more than man-made formulas trying to express a mystery that hasn't been completely revealed to us and is really of little importance, practically speaking.


The process is this:

First the person heard the gospel or word of God preached about Jesus.

Without going thru the process of the decision making which I am sure you know well, the end result was that they were fully persuaded and believed the word of God preached.

They then acted on what they believed. They acted like what Jesus accomplished on the cross was true. The action was they said yes and followed the instructions given them which resulted in them being saved.

They confessed with their mouth or said out loud a prayer. If not right then at some point they will say out loud that "Jesus is Lord".

When this process is understood and followed then a person can hear and receive the word of God on anything that pertains to life and/or godliness and the word of God will cause change for the better in their lives.

When it is understood it can be done on purpose.

[map4]

When my faith doesn't work I get mad. First at God, then at myself. Then I settle for frustrated. It is then that I can begin to form questions to ask as to why it didn't work. Then I can study the bible thing and read what Jesus says about it. Then I fight about it with Danny for 3 days. Then I conclude that what I believed was wrong. Then I study some more. Then I believe something else. Then I try that out. And if that doesn't work, I repeat the process. If it does work, then I keep that one and move on to something else......


Isn't that what we're supposed to do?


I tend to agree that if faith doesn't seem to 'work' then I need to see if I missed something somewhere. But I believe, as someone said, that faith always works...faith from God can't fail because He can't fail.
Like angeleyes said, it may be misplaced faith and we need to seek Him to see if that is the case. Or if it is just not time and I just need to keep standing and waiting for it to 'work'.


But, whether or not what I have faith for comes to pass in this lifetime or not...God is still God and His Word is still true.

Some things we just don't know. Period.

[Tamara224]

The process is this:

First the person heard the gospel or word of God preached about Jesus.

Without going thru the process of the decision making which I am sure you know well, the end result was that they were fully persuaded and believed the word of God preached.

They then acted on what they believed. They acted like what Jesus accomplished on the cross was true. The action was they said yes and followed the instructions given them which resulted in them being saved.

They confessed with their mouth or said out loud a prayer. If not right then at some point they will say out loud that "Jesus is Lord".

When this process is understood and followed then a person can hear and receive the word of God on anything that pertains to life and/or godliness and the word of God will cause change for the better in their lives.

When it is understood it can be done on purpose.


LOL, did you read my post at all? (It's funny how it seems you're doing what you were getting after others for doing).

Why don't you answer my question.... If we didn't need to understand the formula in order to get saved (which is what you said in your previous post), then why do we need it for anything else?

IMO, this stuff you've posted is reminiscent of gnosticism. Special knowledge (gnosis) giving us special powers.

[ARBITER01]

LOL, did you read my post at all? (It's funny how it seems you're doing what you were getting after others for doing).

Why don't you answer my question.... If we didn't need to understand the formula in order to get saved (which is what you said in your previous post), then why do we need it for anything else?

IMO, this stuff you've posted is reminiscent of gnosticism. Special knowledge (gnosis) giving us special powers.


This part here,...


When this process is understood and followed then a person can hear and receive the word of God on anything that pertains to life and/or godliness and the word of God will cause change for the better in their lives.



Has a similar ring to Victorywords aspect of knowing GOD's will for a person from the bible instead of GOD.

[Tamara224]

This part here,...

Has a similar ring to Victorywords aspect of knowing GOD's will for a person from the bible instead of GOD.


Yeppers.

[Optimax]

LOL, did you read my post at all? (It's funny how it seems you're doing what you were getting after others for doing).

Why don't you answer my question.... If we didn't need to understand the formula in order to get saved (which is what you said in your previous post), then why do we need it for anything else?

IMO, this stuff you've posted is reminiscent of gnosticism. Special knowledge (gnosis) giving us special powers.


Because when a person hears about Jesus the Holy Spirit is working with them to reprove them of sin.

Jn 16:8-9

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
KJV

The word reprove is NT:1651

NT:1651
elegcho (el-eng'-kho); of uncertain affinity; to confute, admonish:


KJV - convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

When a person is convinced by the Holy Spirit of sin, and the answer is being preached they go thru the process of faith without being conscious of it.

Once we are born again then we are commanded to live by faith.
The scriptures are listed at the end of this post.

Since we have no idea what faith is, how it works(operates), or how to do faith on purpose we must study in order to learn and understand.

The Holy Spirit as we learn from God's Word about faith helps us with the understanding.

Ro 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith .
KJV

Gal 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith .
KJV

Heb 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith : but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
KJV

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
KJV


Faith is not what denomination or church that one belongs to.

[pinetree]

m

[Tamara224]

Because when a person hears about Jesus the Holy Spirit is working with them to reprove them of sin.

Jn 16:8-9

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
KJV

The word reprove is NT:1651

NT:1651
elegcho (el-eng'-kho); of uncertain affinity; to confute, admonish:


KJV - convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

When a person is convinced by the Holy Spirit of sin, and the answer is being preached they go thru the process of faith without being conscious of it.

Once we are born again then we are commanded to live by faith.
The scriptures are listed at the end of this post.

Since we have no idea what faith is, how it works(operates), or how to do faith on purpose we must study in order to learn and understand.

The Holy Spirit as we learn from God's Word about faith helps us with the understanding.

Ro 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith .
KJV

Gal 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith .
KJV

Heb 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith : but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
KJV

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
KJV


Faith is not what denomination or church that one belongs to.


:scratch: Who said that's what faith is?

So, I'll boil down your position as I understand it.... To get saved you don't have to understand the process because God will take care of that part for us.

But once we're saved, we have to understand the process or we aren't walking by faith. And God won't help us out for other things like He did for salvation.

But, apparently, faith to you means something we do - because you say we're supposed to "do it on purpose" (as opposed to on accident?).

So, faith is an action on our part... is that what you're saying?

Seriously, I am even more convinced that you don't even understand what you're saying. It's mumbo-jumbo.

Faith is really very simple. Faith is believing and trusting. That's it. Walking by faith means that we live and act based on the belief in God and our hope of eternal life. It means that our actions are no longer determined by our temporal, material needs and wants - but that our goal is Jesus. We act based on our faith that we are not citizens of this world.

Living by faith is only tangentially related to receiving blessings from God.

[Optimax]

:scratch: Who said that's what faith is?

So, I'll boil down your position as I understand it.... To get saved you don't have to understand the process because God will take care of that part for us.

But once we're saved, we have to understand the process or we aren't walking by faith. And God won't help us out for other things like He did for salvation.

But, apparently, faith to you means something we do - because you say we're supposed to "do it on purpose" (as opposed to on accident?).

So, faith is an action on our part... is that what you're saying?

Seriously, I am even more convinced that you don't even understand what you're saying. It's mumbo-jumbo.

Faith is really very simple. Faith is believing and trusting. That's it. Walking by faith means that we live and act based on the belief in God and our hope of eternal life. It means that our actions are no longer determined by our temporal, material needs and wants - but that our goal is Jesus. We act based on our faith that we are not citizens of this world.

Living by faith is only tangentially related to receiving blessings from God.

I am saying that the way we receive any blessing from God.

That blessing can be being saved, being healed, being delivered from a habit, or any other blessing from God.

I am saying that we are blessed by the same process that we are saved.

We hear the word about whatever blessing we need or desire.

We choose to believe it or not.

We at some point become fully persuaded that God will perform what he promised (in this case what ever blessing we need or desire).

We begin at some point to speak or say out loud the same thing God says about us concerning the blessing we are needing/desiring.

We continue being fully persuaded not allowing other thoughts, other's beliefs, circumstances, imaginations and other voices that attempt to convince us that it wont happen, until it happens and the blessing is manifested.

[JimfromOhio]

The source of Faith is the Holy Spirit that faith is kindled and is preserved and made strong by grace alone. Faith is the first step of obedience proves to be an act of faith in the word of Christ by responding to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. But we should completely misunderstand the nature of grace if we were to suppose that there was no need to take the first-step, because faith was already there. Faith comes only when the outward fact penetrates to the inner heart of man and takes possession of him there and this is the work of the Spirit, not man. By faith we receive the saving grace of God that delivers us from guilt and sin. In love we participate in the victorious struggle of God against the principalities and powers of evil. Faith, as Apostle Paul saw it, was a living, flaming thing leading to surrender and obedience to the commandments of Christ.

Faith recognizes the fact that God is in control of my life. Whether I believe it or not, it's a fact that God is in control of the world. If I don't believe it, I'm just robbing myself of the enjoyment of the fact. Faith never means gullibility. The man who believes everything is as far from God as the man who refuses to believe anything. Faith believes that God, in his grace, has stepped over the boundary into human history and told us some great and very valuable facts. Faith believes and adjusts according to life by those facts and walks on that basis. Faith is when you cannot answer a skeptic but be content to wait for more light while at the same time never forsake a great principle of God's Character. The Christian faith is meant to be lived moment by moment by looking forward to our eternal inheritance will help us maintain a proper perspective on temporal things and motivate us to praise and adore God. We know it takes true faith to perseverance because true faith is to believe what you do not yet see; the blessings for faith is to see what you believe. As this one well known verse says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1). Faith never knows where it is being led, but it loves and knows the One who is leading. Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible only according to God's will, not our imagination. The great enemy of faith is a complacent spirit, an attitude of self-satisfaction with the status quo.

Faith, for instance, is not positive thinking; that is something quite different. Faith is not a hunch that is followed. Faith is not hoping for the best, hoping that everything will turn out all right. Faith is not a feeling of optimism. Faith is none of these things, though all of them have been identified as faith.

[Elijah2]

“But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honour and everlasting power. Amen.” (1 Tim.6: 11-16)

Once again, faith is not fully grounded on “grace”. And at times, we see many claim faith through materialism. By these words above, faith comes from righteousness, godliness, the Fruit of the Spirit, and a spirit-controlled life. When we pursue righteousness, godliness and the Fruit of the Spirit, then we can be sure of “eternal life”.

We can be saved, but if we have no fruitfulness of life and give a “good confession” of our life, then rewards will be ours, but only if we continue in His Word and in HIM. Our faith comes from obedience and discipline as well.

We see many empty religious arguments and debates

Our faith comes from being faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ in all our ways, and as in the case of these verses, we are told to remain faithful to HIM, and to focus upon His return. As HIS return is the motive behind us living a Godly life!

Grace is given to us, and that isn’t what makes us “faithful”, it’s what we “pursue (in) righteousness, (in) godliness, (in) faith, (in) love,(in) patience, (in) gentleness…(in a) good confession in the presence of many witnesses”.

[TheBloodOfJesus]

Originally Posted by ARBITER01 http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47951085#post47951085)
"Faith is a revealed knowledge inside our spirits from GOD."
*****
Isn't this is called Gnosticism?

~Jim


THis is why I question some people's claim that they were once WoF. They have no idea what WoF teaches, but then they step up and claim to be experts by experience. They do not know what revelation knowledge is nor do the know the difference between revelation knowledge and gnosticism. Real WoFers laugh when they read this ignorance.
Gnosticism does not teach that knowledge is revealed into the spirit. It teaches secrect knowledge the same way the Masons teach secret knowledge.
There is nothing secret about the the knowledge in the Word. It is right there for all to see. Anyone who can read can know on a head level everthing that can be known about God, Christianity, and spiritual things. What "revelation knowledge" does is take that same information and inserts it into the spirit where it becomes belief. That is what WoF means when they speak of "revelation knowledge." It is the process by which God takes "raw" information and inserts it into your spirit. As long as it is only in your head, it does nothing for you. Only after God speaks it into your spirit does it become faith, i.e. a "belief."

This is so basic to WoF, that anyone who can compare it to Gnosticism knows very little about what WoF teaches.

[Tamara224]

I am saying that the way we receive any blessing from God.

That blessing can be being saved, being healed, being delivered from a habit, or any other blessing from God.

I am saying that we are blessed by the same process that we are saved.

We hear the word about whatever blessing we need or desire.

We choose to believe it or not.

We at some point become fully persuaded that God will perform what he promised (in this case what ever blessing we need or desire).

We begin at some point to speak or say out loud the same thing God says about us concerning the blessing we are needing/desiring.

We continue being fully persuaded not allowing other thoughts, other's beliefs, circumstances, imaginations and other voices that attempt to convince us that it wont happen, until it happens and the blessing is manifested.


Which brings us back around to the OP....

What happens when your formula is followed and it doesn't work?

IOW... when the formula doesn't stand the test of reality, do you live in denial, or do you face up to the fact that maybe your formula is flawed?

[probinson]

If there's one thing a "system" administrator (btw, that's what I do for a living ;))can tell you, it is that there are always exceptions and nuances to the "system", that only those who are intimately acquainted with how the system works can even begin to understand. (I can already hear the accusations of "gnostic" teaching forming on the keyboards all over the world... :D)

Simply put, God and our faith is not to be looked at as a "formula". The things that Optimax is saying are good principles to be followed, but there is no "formula" for faith. If it were as simple as step 1, step 2, step 3, bingo!, then we'd have no need for God.

God wants us to rely on and trust Him. As I look back over my relatively short life, there really aren't two comparable instances that I can show to even attempt to design a "formula" for faith.

While my systems administration example is not a perfect analogy, we still must become intimately acquainted with God. It's not a "special" power or knowledge. It's something that every one of us has a choice about. We can choose to seek God, or we can cling to doctrine and "formulas".

Yes, there are principles, and I agree fully with what Optimax has presented. But this should not to be taken as the "formula" for faith, and/or for determining if it "works".

So what's next? I don't know, because I'm not God.

I believe that God wants us to go to Him personally, not debate endlessly on a forum why the "formula" didn't work, of which I am tremendously guilty.

[GreatistheLord]

Jesus demonstrated perfectly that there is no formula or method in what we do, i.e. spit in their eye, or rub mud in their eye. The essence is that we are obedient and act in faith. That is a principle and not a method.

[ARBITER01]

If there's one thing a "system" administrator (btw, that's what I do for a living ;))can tell you, it is that there are always exceptions and nuances to the "system", that only those who are intimately acquainted with how the system works can even begin to understand. (I can already hear the accusations of "gnostic" teaching forming on the keyboards all over the world... :D)

Simply put, God and our faith is not to be looked at as a "formula". The things that Optimax is saying are good principles to be followed, but there is no "formula" for faith. If it were as simple as step 1, step 2, step 3, bingo!, then we'd have no need for God.

God wants us to rely on and trust Him. As I look back over my relatively short life, there really aren't two comparable instances that I can show to even attempt to design a "formula" for faith.

While my systems administration example is not a perfect analogy, we still must become intimately acquainted with God. It's not a "special" power or knowledge. It's something that every one of us has a choice about. We can choose to seek God, or we can cling to doctrine and "formulas".

Yes, there are principles, and I agree fully with what Optimax has presented. But this should not to be taken as the "formula" for faith, and/or for determining if it "works".

So what's next? I don't know, because I'm not God.

I believe that God wants us to go to Him personally, not debate endlessly on a forum why the "formula" didn't work, of which I am tremendously guilty.

Good post.

You also made a post recently about becoming a son. A big part of that change to sonship is how we spend our time being acquainted with GOD and allowing HIM to change us into HIS Son.

We obviously should allot more time to that relationship with Jesus than what we give towards a forum. Only then do we really begin to understand GOD's priniciples, and most likely, begin to see those priniciples of man that hinder us.

[probinson]

Good post.

You also made a post recently about becoming a son. A big part of that change to sonship is how we spend our time being acquainted with GOD and allowing HIM to change us into HIS Son.

We obviously should allot more time to that relationship with Jesus than what we give towards a forum. Only then do we really begin to understand GOD's priniciples, and most likely, begin to see those priniciples of man that hinder us.
Eureka! Did we just agree on something?

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h128/petesarah/Smilies/scif445.gif

[ARBITER01]

Eureka! Did we just agree on something?

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h128/petesarah/Smilies/scif445.gif

Yes we did.

You made a post that was truthful but neutral in stance. You stepped into my arena with that. Your post had nothing to do with the doctrinal issues or teachings of men, but demonstrated a desire just to be closer to Jesus and allow Him to teach you instead of anyone else. You will always find agreement with me in that area.

[razzelflabben]

wow I missed a lot, we went from talking about faith to what individual groups believe. To make matters worse, no one as best I can tell even said a thing about my post, either in agreement or disagreement. Makes me wonder where the Spirit is when we can't find any agreement because our focus has to be on denominations and not on God.

Oh well, my son is home for a week, time to enjoy him before he ships out for Iraq. Enjoy your arguments.