Tension between Patriarchs?

[Historynut]

Please read the following article:http://greekinsight.com/?conID=13613


Alright seeing as how I am rather new still to Orthodoxy would some of you guys/girls tell me if this is business as usual or something we should be somewhat worried about?

Hope its not a repost :o

[Philothei]

No, it is not a repost.. That is new. I heard it over the Greek TV... but it was just a report like that no commentary on it. I have to check the news tomorrow.. Oh...brother it is such a shame... :(

Lord have mercy :(

[Historynut]

This article certainly makes it all sound pretty bad but you are probably right we should wait for more sources before we panic.

I am not all that up to date on church politics overseas so is this a reflection of actual church disputes between the Ukrainian Orthodox and Russian Orthodox? Or is it just a reflection of the secular political climate between the two countries which i know are tense right now?

[Thekla]

Lord have mercy !

[Philothei]

I just found out it is hapenning it is true :( The church of Greece will side with the EP but there is one Metropolitan of Zakithos (figures) that would side with the MP... What a royal mess that will be. I think though that relationships had gone sour before and the actual schism never happened.. I am sure the RC is holding their breath with this... but I hope it is just a passing tension and nothing else....

Lord have mercy

[Philothei]

This article certainly makes it all sound pretty bad but you are probably right we should wait for more sources before we panic.

I am not all that up to date on church politics overseas so is this a reflection of actual church disputes between the Ukrainian Orthodox and Russian Orthodox?

Yes, it is and the EP is poking its nose in affairs that they should not.. IMO at least...

Or is it just a reflection of the secular political climate between the two countries which i know are tense right now?


No it has nothing to do with that I think... Greece is a great ally to Russia and vise versa... Defenately not a tension there. At least last time I checked...lol....

My question is why we have two churches in Ukraine the Patriarchate and the Church of Ukraine under Moscow? Was the EP trying to mendle with this church? then no wonder we will be excommunicated.....blah....:doh:

[Machachachi]

I cannot access this web page for whatever reason, could someone give a short synopsis of what is occurring?

[Mikeb85]

This is my understanding (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

First, the EP meddled in the MP's affairs by establishing an Estonian church (Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church) alongside the Estonian Orthodox Church. The EP (and a few others) doesn't recognize the OCA as autocephalous, and has set up churches in North America to rival it (GOA, UOCC, UOCA, etc...). Now, the EP is accused of going behind the MP's back, and talking with schismatic groups in Ukraine, potentially setting up/recognizing another Ukrainian church, to rival the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (MP).

Not to mention, there seems to be plenty of people who are unhappy with the stance the EP has taken with the Pope and ecumenism...

[Machachachi]

If these things are true, no one will benefit from the results. Lord have mercy!

[Mikeb85]

http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;23571/

[nutroll]

If what the EP is doing is so wrong, why don't they just depose him rather than creating a schism? Given that there is no heresy involved, it seems unnecessary, even cruel to put everyone under the EP into schism when they still share the same faith. I really don't understand this.

[-Kyriaki-]

*shudders*

Lord, have mercy. This is the kind of thing that makes me want to put my hands over my eyes and ears until it goes away.

And what about me? I'm (more or less) both Antiochian and Greek...does that make me half a schismatic if this happens?

[Machachachi]

I really don't understand what is going on.... What's this really about?

[Protoevangel]

I cannot access this web page for whatever reason, could someone give a short synopsis of what is occurring?

I really don't understand what is going on.... What's this really about?
The original linked story:

Moscow Patriarch Threatens Orthodox Church with Schism, Attacks Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew Over Ukraine Church (http://greekinsight.com/?conID=13613#)

22/07/2008

Athens- The Orthodox Christian Church has come under threat of schism for the first time in 954 years. The cause is Moscow Patriarch Alexy, who in an act of unprecedented aggression against Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew has raised the threat of a major schism in a letter sent to all church primates.

The Moscow Patriarchate has for many years sought to play the leading role among Orthodox churches. The present attempt comes in connection with events in Kiev on July 26th and 27th to celebrate 1020 years since the Christianization of the city’s population by Vladimir the Great. The Ecumenical Patriarch was among those officially invited to the events, to be attended by Ukraine President Victor Yushchenko, and of course Kiev Patriarch and Patriarch Alexy.

But in a sudden development on July 20th, Patriarch Alexy sent a letter to all heads of churches accusing Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew of ties with the Kiev Patriarchate and threatening the former with a schism “comparable to the events of 1054”, i.e. the Great Schism between Rome and Constantinople.

It should be noted that Archbishop of Albania Anastasios was the first to express his full support for the Ecumenical Patriarch – unlike Archbishop of Cyprus Chrysostomos, who was among the first to side with Patriarch Alexy.

In a leading article under the heading “Towards a New Schism!”, respected Greek newspaper To Vima says, “A downturn in relations between the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Patriarchate of Moscow are threatening the Orthodox Church with a new schism. What makes this possibility a dramatic one is that the schism is not the result of potentially worthwhile differences in dogma. Rather, the schism that is shaking the foundations of the Orthodox Church comes from administrative differences over the Church of Ukraine. May the Holy Spirit enlighten them and lead them towards agreement”.

[Machachachi]

Oh seriously. A schism? Honestly in my mind the Orthodox Church won't stand for a schism over this. Better that the leaders step down to be replaced by men who won't threaten the unity of Holy Orthodoxy over something so trivial. Am I out of line in saying this?

[Protoevangel]

Oh seriously. A schism? Honestly in my mind the Orthodox Church won't stand for a schism over this. Better that the leaders step down to be replaced by men who won't threaten the unity of Holy Orthodoxy over something so trivial. Am I out of line in saying this?
Machachachi,

I don't think so. I think you are saying much the same thing that Nutroll was suggesting, and which I would like to see. I would much rather see the EP deposed, than for a schism to occur.

[Machachachi]

Honestly these sorts of things break my heart. It also boggles my mind a lot of times.

[Komnenos]

So it comes in our time. The end of Orthodox unity.

[Matrona]

So it comes in our time. The end of Orthodox unity.

Please, don't get worked up about this. This is just more of the same smoke that's been blowing back and forth between Moscow and Constantinople for the past four hundred years. It's nothing to worry about.

[Komnenos]

Please, don't get worked up about this. This is just more of the same smoke that's been blowing back and forth between Moscow and Constantinople for the past four hundred years. It's nothing to worry about.
Maybe not for you, how can God's church be in schism? I'm seriously reexamining Orthodoxy.

[Machachachi]

One might look at all of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism and various other schisms that exist within the church. The church has been in schism for a long time, Orthodoxy has kept the Ancient Faith while others have gone after "new" doctrine. I think its particularly foolish to question Holy Orthodoxy because of a couple of men and their political posturing. Just like the failed attempts at unity with RC that have gone in the past, the people of Orthodoxy ultimately decide rather than a few patriarch's. We can rely on The Holy Spirit to give us unity, and what's more we can rely on The Church that God has set in place as the bedrock of the truth.

[Greg the byzantine]

The Greek news made it sound like there is most definitely going to be a schism, but then again I don't trust Antenna Greek TV.

We need a lot of prayers. I don't want a schism, the Church can't handle another split. It's so stupid because we share the exact same faith. Lord have Mercy, Lord have Mercy, Lord have Mercy. Three Holy Hierarchs Pray for us.

[Protoevangel]

Maybe not for you, how can God's church be in schism? I'm seriously reexamining Orthodoxy.
That would be the reaction of a fool. There have been temporary schisms in the past. When the Church is made up of broken humans, we will continue to stumble.

[Andrew21091]

The EP is going to far. He should be deposed so this whole thing doesn't threaten the future of the Orthodox Church.

Lord have mercy on your servants!

[Komnenos]

That would be the reaction of a fool. There have been temporary schisms in the past. When the Church is made up of broken humans, we will continue to stumble.
Call me whatever you want, I'm so sick of these stupid political divisions in the church.

[Protoevangel]

Call me whatever you want, I'm so sick of these stupid political divisions in the church.
You are just overreacting, just like both parties in the squabble. You are sick of their politics, so you'll just schism on your own? We are all sick of the human elements. Look, even Paul and Barnabas parted company for a time. That does not change the nature of the Church.

[Andrew21091]

The reason for the divisions is the EP's ecumenist ideals that are going to destroy the Church.

[gzt]

Komnenos: Good grief, don't be so emo. How can it be in schism? Well, it isn't yet, silly, and probably won't be. As Matrona said, this is just smoke blowing back and forth. Call back when something comes of it.

[Komnenos]

You are just overreacting, just like both parties in the squabble. You are sick of their politics, so you'll just schism on your own? We are all sick of the human elements. Look, even Paul and Barnabas parted company for a time. That does not change the nature of the Church.
I might look into the RCC. At least they have some semblance of unity. I know about the SMALL break off groups of the RCC but its nothing compared to this.

[Komnenos]

Komnenos: Good grief, don't be so emo. How can it be in schism? Well, it isn't yet, silly, and probably won't be. As Matrona said, this is just smoke blowing back and forth. Call back when something comes of it.
What on earth is "Emo"?

[Machachachi]

I might look into the RCC. At least they have some semblance of unity. I know about the SMALL break off groups of the RCC but its nothing compared to this.

Yes the protestant reformation has nothing on this current dilemma. Have you ever heard the expression throwing the baby out with the bathwater?

[Protoevangel]

The reason for the divisions is the EP's ecumenist ideals that are going to destroy the Church.
Oh ye of little faith. You don't trust Christ when He says that the gates of Hades will not prevail?

[Protoevangel]

I might look into the RCC. At least they have some semblance of unity. I know about the SMALL break off groups of the RCC but its nothing compared to this.
Trade the Truth for a lie... and over nothing more than rumors. So sad.

[Andrew21091]

I might look into the RCC. At least they have some semblance of unity. I know about the SMALL break off groups of the RCC but its nothing compared to this.

You are going to deny the true Orthodox faith and go to a church that is holds heretical doctrines?

[gzt]

Andrew: Did you read the article?! The main issue at stake is both of the parties' involvements in Ukraine, not the EP meeting with the Pope or anything like that. It is a turf war, not a conflict about ecumenism.

[Komnenos]

You are going to deny the true Orthodox faith and go to a church that is holds heretical doctrines?
The protestants were not an Entire Patriarchate going into schism like whats happening now. The 9 patriarchates are all probably going to become independent churches now. I don't think Im going to the RCC, I was just feling hot and bothered. I'm still confused though.

[Protoevangel]

The protestants were not an Entire Patriarchate going into schism like whats happening now. The 9 patriarchates are all probably going to become independent churches now.
I still think you are greatly overreacting.

I don't think Im going to the RCC, I was just feling hot and bothered. I'm still confused though.
That I completely understand. I really respect your honesty here. Satan is working overtime.

[Machachachi]

It is times like this that I am reminded how important scripture is.

Ephesians 4
1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=31#fen-NIV-29265a)] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=31#fen-NIV-29265b)] 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=31#fen-NIV-29266c)]? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

[Protoevangel]

It is times like this that I am reminded how important scripture is.

Ephesians 4
1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=31#fen-NIV-29265a)] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=31#fen-NIV-29265b)] 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=31#fen-NIV-29266c)]? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
Amen!

[Dorothea]

The original linked story:

Moscow Patriarch Threatens Orthodox Church with Schism, Attacks Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew Over Ukraine Church (http://greekinsight.com/?conID=13613#)

22/07/2008

Athens- The Orthodox Christian Church has come under threat of schism for the first time in 954 years. The cause is Moscow Patriarch Alexy, who in an act of unprecedented aggression against Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew has raised the threat of a major schism in a letter sent to all church primates.

The Moscow Patriarchate has for many years sought to play the leading role among Orthodox churches. The present attempt comes in connection with events in Kiev on July 26th and 27th to celebrate 1020 years since the Christianization of the city’s population by Vladimir the Great. The Ecumenical Patriarch was among those officially invited to the events, to be attended by Ukraine President Victor Yushchenko, and of course Kiev Patriarch and Patriarch Alexy.

But in a sudden development on July 20th, Patriarch Alexy sent a letter to all heads of churches accusing Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew of ties with the Kiev Patriarchate and threatening the former with a schism “comparable to the events of 1054”, i.e. the Great Schism between Rome and Constantinople.

It should be noted that Archbishop of Albania Anastasios was the first to express his full support for the Ecumenical Patriarch – unlike Archbishop of Cyprus Chrysostomos, who was among the first to side with Patriarch Alexy.

In a leading article under the heading “Towards a New Schism!”, respected Greek newspaper To Vima says, “A downturn in relations between the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Patriarchate of Moscow are threatening the Orthodox Church with a new schism. What makes this possibility a dramatic one is that the schism is not the result of potentially worthwhile differences in dogma. Rather, the schism that is shaking the foundations of the Orthodox Church comes from administrative differences over the Church of Ukraine. May the Holy Spirit enlighten them and lead them towards agreement”.
Amen. Lord, have mercy. :( :crosseo:

[Epiphanius]

I'm new to Orthodoxy but not to the human condition. Just because people are Orthodox and just because they are leaders, doesn't mean they won't make mistakes. Even a minor schism right now would be a tragedy, but the bottom line is that the fullness of Truth exists in the Orthodox Church. The Truth has prevailed for over 2000 years and it will continue to prevail, regardless of how hard mere humans try to destroy it. When the clergy in Russia became corrupted by the KGB during communism, the laity preserved the Truth regardless of the efforts of the merely human dictators. Regardless of what happens in this situation, Christ conquers all and the Truth will remain. I have faith in Christ, and therefor in his body. This is nothing more that a bit of sickness that will be fought by the whole until it gets better.

[Philothei]

:groupray::groupray:

Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy
:cry::cry:

Instead of bickering we need to come together in prayer... I am lighting my oil lamp until this threat leaves from our church


Dear God preserve the unity of our Church :crosseo:

[Protoevangel]

Here (http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=4974) is a story told from the Russian perspective. It seems a little less alarmist than the other story, although still quite serious.


Yes, this needs much prayer from all of us.


Lord have mercy!

[Epiphanius]

O God, Who art the unsearchable abyss of peace, the ineffable sea of love, the fountain of all blessings, and the bestower of affection, who sendest peace to those who receive it...

Open to us this day the sea of Thy love and bestow upon us the abundant riches of Thy grace. Make us children of quietness and heirs of peace. Kindle in us the fire of Thy love, strengthen our weakness by Thy power, and bind us closely to Thee in unity.
:crosseo::groupray:

[Philothei]

Nice prayer Ephiphanius...

Thank you.

[katherine2001]

The EP is going to far. He should be deposed so this whole thing doesn't threaten the future of the Orthodox Church.

Lord have mercy on your servants!

I agree. He is interfering in the territory of other patriarchs, which is forbidden by the canons. He is not the Orthodox Pope. We schismed over that issue before. If he's not careful, it will happen again.

[Protoevangel]

The EP is going to far. He should be deposed so this whole thing doesn't threaten the future of the Orthodox Church.

Lord have mercy on your servants!

I agree. He is interfering in the territory of other patriarchs, which is forbidden by the canons. He is not the Orthodox Pope. We schismed over that issue before. If he's not careful, it will happen again.
I tend to agree as well. But let's pray over the situation instead of pointing fingers and risk offending our Greek brothers and sisters... Because the problem is not their fault, but it is a very tender situation.

From what I've read, it looks like Archbishop Chrysostomos of Cyprus does not support the Ukrainian and Estonian interference, and has been working to straighten out the situation. God bless him! http://pwlrecruiters.com/images/OrthoPrayer.gif

[Philothei]

The MP is, of what I understand, in charge of the Ukranian church... and not with the Patriarchate of Ukraine...? Are there two churches in Ukraine? are they both legitemate? Some blame the MP for the conflict... I say that so that we know there might be some legitemacy to the claims of the EP. I have no idea who is doing what in that area. Also about Esthonia ... it is a puzzle too since some say that there is also a conflict there too...

Like Proto said though there no reason to flame the GOA faithful... It is clrearly not our fault that our hierarchy is handling this a cetain way...:cry::cry::cry:

[Philothei]

http://www.romfea.gr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1491&Itemid=1

for those greek speaking they can read about the issue. This site is not the best at accuracy but at least we know that it is all about Bartholomew's visit to Ukraine and Alexei's fear he will meet with the schismatic church...of Ukraine...

It sounds not too serious since I really doubt the EP will do something like that just to "mendle" with local politics....Then again no one knows...

Now that makes sense....

Prayers for them all involved...

[Matrona]

Philothei, the church situation in Ukraine is incredibly funky and complex. There are several groups calling themselves "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" there, only one of which is actually canonical (and has the vast majority of the faithful, thank God).

The canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine is under the Moscow Patriarchate. This is the only legitimate body of Orthodox Christians in Ukraine.

For complex reasons, Ukrainians tend to resent Moscow having authority over them. There is an uncanonical, schismatic group calling itself the "Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kiev Patriarchate". (There is also another group called the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church that is also schismatic and uncanonical.)

It appears that Patriarch Alexei was afraid that the EP would make nice with the "Kiev Patriarchate" wackos and wrest the Ukrainian faithful from the MP's authority, so he is saying that if the EP tries to legitimize the "Kiev Patriarchate", it will cause a schism of historic proportions.

In other words, this is basic saber-rattling. The MP is just putting his foot down about the uncanonical weirdoes in Ukraine. There is no reason to suspect that the EP is suddenly going to make friends with the wacko "Kiev Patriarchate" or that a schism is imminent or even likely.

[Thekla]

well, since I can't rep you I'll have to publicly say

thank-you, Matrona, for disentangling this situation for us !!!!

[Historynut]

Ah that clears it up some Matrona thanks. It appears that what we have here is the secular politics infringing on church politics. The Ukrainian schismatics are basically nationalists who resent Czarist Russian and then Soviet domination of their country, and the Russian church is concerned about the EP giving credence to this break away groups.

Seems like mostly a failure to communicate and hopefully something that will easily be worked out.

[Philothei]

Philothei, the church situation in Ukraine is incredibly funky and complex. There are several groups calling themselves "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" there, only one of which is actually canonical (and has the vast majority of the faithful, thank God).

The canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine is under the Moscow Patriarchate. This is the only legitimate body of Orthodox Christians in Ukraine.

For complex reasons, Ukrainians tend to resent Moscow having authority over them. There is an uncanonical, schismatic group calling itself the "Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kiev Patriarchate". (There is also another group called the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church that is also schismatic and uncanonical.)


I think that is worth repeating ;).... I guess the whole fuss was the EP visiting Ukraine and "meeting with that group"..... I hope and pray that the EP will go out of his mind.... I still believe we are under attack....

Lord have mercy....
:prayer::crosseo::crosseo::bow:

Thanks Matrona ...


It appears that Patriarch Alexei was afraid that the EP would make nice with the "Kiev Patriarchate" wackos and wrest the Ukrainian faithful from the MP's authority, so he is saying that if the EP tries to legitimize the "Kiev Patriarchate", it will cause a schism of historic proportions.

In other words, this is basic saber-rattling. The MP is just putting his foot down about the uncanonical weirdoes in Ukraine. There is no reason to suspect that the EP is suddenly going to make friends with the wacko "Kiev Patriarchate" or that a schism is imminent or even likely.
[/QUOTE]

[-Kyriaki-]

*sighs*

Oh, Lord have mercy. I pray this will all sort out.

[juliagreece]

The MP is, of what I understand, in charge of the Ukranian church... and not with the Patriarchate of Ukraine...? Are there two churches in Ukraine? are they both legitemate? Some blame the MP for the conflict... I say that so that we know there might be some legitemacy to the claims of the EP. I have no idea who is doing what in that area. Also about Esthonia ... it is a puzzle too since some say that there is also a conflict there too...

Like Proto said though there no reason to flame the GOA faithful... It is clrearly not our fault that our hierarchy is handling this a cetain way...:cry::cry::cry:

Yeah, the MP isn't so innocent when he himself has the schism in his own back yard. Perhaps he should deal with that first before creating a greater schism in the Church.

[Protoevangel]

Yeah, the MP isn't so innocent when he himself has the schism in his own back yard. Perhaps he should deal with that first before creating a greater schism in the Church.
Yes, both sides have their schismatics.

Maybe we can try to be an example to our Bishops, though. Whada ya say? :hug:

[Kreikkalainen]

Tensions between patriarchates is business as usual in the Orthodox church. The rhetorics from Moscow are, I have to say, indeed unusually strong this time, though.

Anyway, it is important not to forget that a schism is not a schism until accepted by the laity. Pretty much like a reunion is not a reunion until accepted by the laity. So let's assume things come to the worst and Moscow breaks communion with Constantinople. Will this automatically stop the thousands of russians who go down to Greece every summer to venerate the relics of their patron saints? I don't think so.

I think for those of us members of the laity who live in places with overlapping jurisdictions, the best we can do (appart from prayer) is pay regular visits to other jurisdictions & receive the sacraments there (so long as the priests don't deny them). It's our way to make our statement that we aren't going to buy this thing for a schism. I can't do that where I am now, but if I was still in UK I would most certainly do.

[Kreikkalainen]

Greek news report that in a letter to Moscow, Bartolomew denied the accusation that he was about to accept the Ukraine schismatics & proposed that Alexei & he celebrate the liturgy together in Kiev. They also report that in meetings with Ukrainian civil authorities, the representatives of Constantinople made it clear that they will not accept the invitation if schismatic groups participate in the celebrations. Further, both Constantinople & Athens have made it clear that if they find schismatics taking part in the celebrations when they arrive in Kiev, then they will walk out.

The video can be found in http://www.ant1online.gr/Pages/Home.aspx for those who understand greek.

Side question: is it me, or does anyone else agree that it is a bit weird to celebrate 1020 years of something? :confused:

[Philothei]

Thanks Kreik I thought that was the deal too...but not sure :)

Hope this tension would ease somehow... I have been stewing over this since yesterday... I could hardly sleep...last night. But you are right they cannot "excommunicate" the laity will for sure protest and also the rest of the Patriachates will not budge... and so the MP will be left alone... It is not to their advantage to do this. I think again the MP and EP have to come together and stop this madness....it reminds me of a elemenatary school children's fight....:(

[Epiphanius]

Side question: is it me, or does anyone else agree that it is a bit weird to celebrate 1020 years of something? :confused:

Well, the 1,000 year mark was reached while they were under oppression by the USSR, so maybe they are making up for it now.

[gzt]

Any excuse for a party. What, you want them to wait another 980 years?

[Mikeb85]

Thanks Kreik I thought that was the deal too...but not sure :)

Hope this tension would ease somehow... I have been stewing over this since yesterday... I could hardly sleep...last night. But you are right they cannot "excommunicate" the laity will for sure protest and also the rest of the Patriachates will not budge... and so the MP will be left alone... It is not to their advantage to do this. I think again the MP and EP have to come together and stop this madness....it reminds me of a elemenatary school children's fight....:(

Not that it matters now, but if the EP were to accept the UOC-KP and UAOC, it would be a HUGE slap in the face to the MP.

The EP has already set up a church in Estonia (Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church) to compete with the Estonian Orthodox Church (under the MP - as a note, Patriarch Alexei II was born and raised in Estonia). The EP has refused to recognize the autocephalousy of the OCA, not to mention his dealings with the pope, and other disputes with the MP...

The UOC-KP are schismatics, their 'Patriarch' has been anathemized and excommunicated (for very good reason) - if the EP had accepted them, on this date no less (especially considering how important Kyiv has been to the history of Orthodoxy in Russia/Ukraine), Moscow would have to act...

Not to mention, the invitation to the EP was sent forward by President Yushenko, who favours the schismatics and uniates (Rome is also set to create a Ukrainian Catholic 'Patriarchate') over the canonical UOC, and is trying to use the EP as a political tool.

And honestly, more Patriarchs would likely side with the MP than the EP over this... In terms of sheer numbers, the Russian Orthodox Church represents nearly 50% of all EO believers...

[Philothei]

But their "party" is going sour...and it has not started yet.... Sorry I am in a funny mood ....Like a "bar browl"...more likely....lol....

[Mikeb85]

Side question: is it me, or does anyone else agree that it is a bit weird to celebrate 1020 years of something? :confused:

http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;23610/


“The 1020th anniversary is not such a round date,” said Fr. Kyryl. “But this is a certain revision of that which happened with us in the last 20 years.” The archimandrite recalled the celebration of the 1000th anniversary of the Baptism of Kyivan Rus, in which the main goal was to revive spiritual life. The goal of the celebration now, in his words, after 10 years of rebirth, is to reflect on how to organize church life and its mutual relations with the state, society, and other religious subjects.

[Philothei]

Not to mention, the invitation to the EP was sent forward by President Yushenko, who favours the schismatics and uniates (Rome is also set to create a Ukrainian Catholic 'Patriarchate') over the canonical UOC, and is trying to use the EP as a political tool.

And honestly, more Patriarchs would likely side with the MP than the EP over this... In terms of sheer numbers, the Russian Orthodox Church represents nearly 50% of all EO believers...


You could be right.. but it is a mess that the MP create in Ukraine? That is the other side of the problem ... and Estonia too was a problem there.. so if the EP is interfering ...well, don't you think they do since there is a canonical problem that was not settled by the MP? There are Orthodox people there who need to be ministered to. Similar problems existed in Greece over juristiciton, but in Greece there was no schism with the existing church... I think the MP as much as I like Alexei, must settle its own back yard ... if he does not want another to mess up with his job. What would be the alternative? to let those schismatics to be devoured by the RC? well then... that is how you have the Estonia problem IMO. The EP said that there will be no contact with the schismatic Church though and I would take his word. It was publicly announced.

[Mikeb85]

You could be right.. but it is a mess that the MP create in Ukraine? That is the other side of the problem ... and Estonia too was a problem there.. so if the EP is interfering ...well, don't you think they do since there is a canonical problem that was not settled by the MP? There are Orthodox people there who need to be ministered to. Similar problems existed in Greece over juristiciton, but in Greece there was no schism with the existing church... I think the MP as much as I like Alexei, must settle its own back yard ... if he does not want another to mess up with his job. What would be the alternative? to let those schismatics to be devoured by the RC? well then... that is how you have the Estonia problem IMO. The EP said that there will be no contact with the schismatic Church though and I would take his word. It was publicly announced.

The only solution is for the schismatics to reunite with the canonical church (under the Moscow Patriarchate), and then eventually, be granted autocephalousy... The canonical UOC-MP is already autonomous.

Here's a brief history of the UOC-KP. The current self-styled 'Patriarch', Filaret, used to be the Metropolitan of All Ukraine. He was at one point a front-runner to become Patriarch of Moscow and all-Russia. However, it was discovered he secretly had a common-law wife, children (in contravention of his monastic vows), as well as some shady financial dealings, and instead Alexei II became Patriarch. When he was eventually ousted from his position, he unilaterally changed the Metropolitan see into the so-called Kyiv 'Patriarchate'. Afterwards, violent disputes arose over church property, the Kyiv 'Patriarchate' aligned itself with paramilitary groups, and eventually Filaret was anathemized and excommunicated.

Hopefully you can see why the EP should in no way recognize them...

[ArnautDaniel]

Isn't this the sort of thing ecumenical councils are called to deal with?

It looks rather like the issue of who has what authority where is an issue for a council.

I imagine they could organize the North American situation as well while they are at.

Although it seems to me that all the other ecumenical councils required the prodding of an emperor with authority over all the various patriarchal jurisdictions.

[Andrew21091]

Isn't this the sort of thing ecumenical councils are called to deal with?


The Ecumenical Councils were called to combat heresy, this is only politics.

[ArnautDaniel]

The Ecumenical Councils were called to combat heresy, this is only politics.

It has been years since I went through the councils, but I recollect they invariably also established jurisdictions and set the boundaries of jurisdictions.

I recall the canons of Nicaea deal with church order and church governance, some examples:

"Let the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya, and Pentapolis prevail: that the Bishop of Alexandria have jurisdiction in all these, sine the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also. Likewise in Antioch and the other provinces, let the Churches retain their privileges. And this is to be universally understood: that if any one be made bishop without the consent of the Metropolitan, the Great Synod has declared that such a man ought not to be a bishop. If, however, two or three bishops shall from natural love of contradiction, oppose the common suffrage of the rest, it being reasonable and in accordance with the ecclesiastical law, then let the choice of the majority prevail."

"Since custom and ancient tradition have prevailed that the Bishop of Aelia [Capitolina = Jerusalem] should be honored, let him (saving the due dignity to the Metropolis [Caesarea Maritima]) have the next place of honor."

Neither bishop, nor presbyter, nor deacon shall be transferred from city to city. But they shall be sent back should they attempt to do so, to the Churches in which they were ordained.

That all sounds like things of a similar nature to what is at issue in the present situation.

[juliagreece]

The only solution is for the schismatics to reunite with the canonical church (under the Moscow Patriarchate), and then eventually, be granted autocephalousy... The canonical UOC-MP is already autonomous.

Hopefully you can see why the EP should in no way recognize them...

There is no way the EP recognizes them or is going to. The MP, though, should start cleaning up its own mess and stop pointing fingers at the EP to make everything look like it's the EP's fault.

[Mikeb85]

There is no way the EP recognizes them or is going to. The MP, though, should start cleaning up its own mess and stop pointing fingers at the EP to make everything look like it's the EP's fault.

The MP has been doing everything in it's power to restore the church - and so far has been incredibly successful, considering what they're up against. Not only did they have to deal with nearly a century of Communist oppression, but now they have western governments trying to tear them apart too.

The self-styled Patriarch of Kyiv is at best a schismatic, at worst a thief and criminal, and he's being backed by the corrupt, pro-western Ukrainian government. To say that the MP caused this problem is an ignorant statement considering the politics that are at work in the Ukraine...

Thankfully most of the Ukrainian faithful recognize this, and still are part of the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church (MP), but it's more than just an internal church matter. This most recent attempt by the Ukrainian President to use the EP as a tool against the MP is yet more proof of the hostility of that government towards the canonical Orthodox church.

[ArnautDaniel]

As I understand it the Russian Orthodox Church is easily the largest of the Orthodox Churches, to the point where one could realistically say that nothing is really going to go in the Orthodox world unless the ROC and the MP go along with it.

This per some Orthodox acquaintances of mine.

That said, to what degree should this spat be interpreted as political muscle flexing by the MP against the EP as to who is really (practically speaking) "top dog" among the Orthodox Patriarchs?

[Komnenos]

http://www.archons.org/news/detail.asp?id=250

[Epiphanius]

Efforts to win autonomy have already split the Ukrainian church. Two breakaway churches have set themselves up since the 1991 Soviet collapse - the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kiev Patriarchate, whose self-declared Patriarch Philaret has been excommunicated by Alexy as a renegade, and its splinter, the Ukrainian Autocephalous Church, also unrecognized.

This leaves out the reason for Philaret's excommunication, which is that he is in violation of his monastic vows as he has a common law wife and children (according to another member of this board).

Which makes this...

The two breakaway churches have attempted to unite in hope of winning recognition from Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople. But so far these efforts have failed.

a childish attempt to run to another parent when one slaps your wrist and says no.

Another scenario Ukrainian leaders could be aiming for is to have Bartholomew recognize the Ukrainian church which now answers to Moscow as independent. Under this plan, the church would later absorb the two rebel churches.

This is an unfortunate nationalist move on the side of Ukrainian political leaders to distance themselves from Russia. It hurts me to see political leaders play leaders of the Church against each other for worldly political gains. This needs to be about The Church, about spiritual life and answering to the spiritual authority placed over you by God, not paltry political moves by men who do not have the best interest of the Orthodox Christians at heart.

That could be tempting for Bartholomew, who is eager to boost his global clout and is jostling for influence with the powerful Moscow Patriarchate, the biggest Orthodox church in the world claiming some 95 million believers, Zolotov said.

This is just sad and I hope it's not true.

[Philothei]

As I understand it the Russian Orthodox Church is easily the largest of the Orthodox Churches, to the point where one could realistically say that nothing is really going to go in the Orthodox world unless the ROC and the MP go along with it.

This per some Orthodox acquaintances of mine.

That said, to what degree should this spat be interpreted as political muscle flexing by the MP against the EP as to who is really (practically speaking) "top dog" among the Orthodox Patriarchs?

anyhow what is your interest in this? you are not Orthodox obviously... I do not mean to be rude just curious why a matte such as this would interest you... This is an internal Orthodox Church matter and you are just an outsider looking inside... Matters of that nature are much more complicated than what meets the eye....:yawn:

[Philothei]

Thankfully most of the Ukrainian faithful recognize this, and still are part of the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church (MP), but it's more than just an internal church matter. This most recent attempt by the Ukrainian President to use the EP as a tool against the MP is yet more proof of the hostility of that government towards the canonical Orthodox church.

Lets pray the MP will take care of that mess... and the the EP will not get involved... when politics are involved in the Church, then there is no growth in the Church....too bad....and how sad...

That could be tempting for Bartholomew, who is eager to boost his global clout and is jostling for influence with the powerful Moscow Patriarchate, the biggest Orthodox church in the world claiming some 95 million believers, Zolotov said.

I really think this will be too obvious of a move and the EP (would give him that as a credit) is not stupid...if he is then he should not be there.... It seems to me to be more of a political issue than religious... What is sad and might be seen as an enticement is that fact that there is a whole church that is schismatic right now and excommunicated. There are faithful who their souls are in danger... I hope that MP realizes that and tries its best to solve the situation....
Because pastorally speaking these faithful need to be incorporated back into the flock. And I still believe that if EP tries to do that he will take the "heat" of course... but under the circumstances ... the MP should realize the importance of such action that is the taking care of this people... Instead of throwing stones at EP they would have to realize this is not a "minor issue"....

[Mikeb85]

What is sad and might be seen as an enticement is that fact that there is a whole church that is schismatic right now and excommunicated. There are faithful who their souls are in danger... I hope that MP realizes that and tries its best to solve the situation....


Whole church?

The canonical (autonomous) Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the MP is still the largest Ukrainian church, and the majority of Ukrainians belong to it.

The schismatics make up only a small portion of Ukrainian faithful, mostly in the western regions of the Ukraine (where you'll also find most of the Uniates).

Believe me, the Ukrainian people want a united church, the UOC-MP want a united church, but it should be done the proper way. What a terrible precedent it would set if schismatics could just seperate from a canonical church, then run to the EP for recognition.

[Philothei]

if the numers are that low the EP would not even consider it ...I do not think it will be worth it then... We need to be vigilant... :(

[Mikeb85]

if the numers are that low the EP would not even consider it ...I do not think it will be worth it then... We need to be vigilant... :(

Well, they do have significant numbers compared to the EP's (adding the Ukrainian schismatics would more than double the EP's faithful - if the numbers I've seen are correct). Compared to the canonical UOC however, they are a minority.

[Philothei]

I want you to understand me what I am saying ... I do not think of "numbers adding onto" the EP ... that is not what is the problem in my book and I am sure the EP has many churches under him to 'want" more.. My concern is the actual pastoral care of these people who are schismatic... that is my point. Whether it will be EP or MP is irrelevant to me (if you put politics aside) and more important is their canonicity....

[cassc]

I keep opening and closing this tread, there are things I would like to say but it frustrates me that whenever this type of criss comes up everyone on this board starts pointing fingers at the EP. Do you guys see how extremely hurtful that is? I'm not going to contribute directly to this tread right now because I am too upset, but please people- more prayers and less finger pointing. :crosseo:

[Mikeb85]

I want you to understand me what I am saying ... I do not think of "numbers adding onto" the EP ... that is not what is the problem in my book and I am sure the EP has many churches under him to 'want" more.. My concern is the actual pastoral care of these people who are schismatic... that is my point. Whether it will be EP or MP is irrelevant to me (if you put politics aside) and more important is their canonicity....

Well, politics are the entire problem. The UAOC and EOC-KP exist because of politics. I'm sure if any of their bishops wished to re-join the UOC they'd be more than welcome, and the UOC has more than enough presense to be able to take care of the faithful.

Moscow's objections don't seem to be to re-unification with the schismatics, rather, the (perception) of the EP playing into the hands of the politicians who openly oppose the canonical church.

As for the issue of EP or MP, the UOC has already gained autonomous status, I'm sure full autocephalous status isn't far off. In the future (perhaps near), there could be a canonical, independant Ukrainian church and the faithful could be re-united.

[Kreikkalainen]

I'm sure if any of their bishops wished to re-join the UOC they'd be more than welcome, and the UOC has more than enough presense to be able to take care of the faithful.


Even the guy with the alleged common-law wife?

[JustinHesychast]

Dear God! Lord, have utmost mercy! :(

[Epiphanius]

I keep opening and closing this tread, there are things I would like to say but it frustrates me that whenever this type of criss comes up everyone on this board starts pointing fingers at the EP. Do you guys see how extremely hurtful that is? I'm not going to contribute directly to this tread right now because I am too upset, but please people- more prayers and less finger pointing. :crosseo:

My finger is not pointing at the EP, I believe that he has the best intentions for the Orthodox faithful. My fingers are being pointed at the Ukrainian political officials that are abusing those very good intentions, by trying to use them to make a politically advantageous move. I believe that the MP reacted too harshly (although there were sensitivities because of prior occurrences so, I understand why). I wish that he had simply met with the EP on a personal basis to talk about it instead of immediately assuming the worst, this was bad form on his part but we are all human and we all make mistakes. I think that the proper frame of mind for us (the laity) to keep, is to assume the best of our leaders until we have more than speculation and future possibilities to base our reactions on. Let us hope that this problem will be worked out through the prayers of the Church and it's Saints and that all will proceed in humility and wisdom.

[Prawnik]

I might as well tell you what I saw, since I live in Kiev. I do not mean to offend, but I will tell you what I heard and saw.

Full and fair disclosure: I agree with Mike's analysis of the situation in Ukraine, but I would not be as nice about it if it were me.

I.

There had been some talk in the last few days of cancelling the entire event for the Baptism of Russia. One of my co-workers told me that a letter purporting to be from Patriarch Alexei II was published telling the Orthodox to stay away.

I commented that this did not make sense, as advertisements were placed in the streets saying "Ukraine Welcomes Its Patriarch!" and showing Alexei quite clearly. Many had been defaced. I do not knowby whom.

My co-worker seemed unimpressed. He is quite strongly in favor of Russia, but has little time for religion.

Other rumors were that the government had refused to admit Alexei, or that police action would be expected. I cannot speak to their truth.

II.

Tacked to the door of my building was a notice that said that the DL was scheduled for a certain park. Like the stupid person that I am, I went.

There was no DL there, just some confused people. Since the Kiev Lavra is not far away, we walked there. The DL was beautiful, but there were strangely not as many people in attendance as I would expect.

The Priest serving the Liturgy clearly stated that the DL was under the omophorion [sic] of Alexei and Bartholomew.

After the service, I left, somewhat confused. Then I went to get money and find something for lunch.

Scorching sun.

III.

Lunch was mediocre at best. When I was walking in the direction of the Metro, I found where everyone had gone.

Coming down the street in the direction of the Lavra was a ginormous crowd. I am not an expert in estimating crowds, but I would say 10,000 people at an absolute minimum, and I would believe it if anyone said 20,000 were in attendance.

This procession was better attended than a football match with the national team playing.

Anyone who knows anything about Ukraine knows that you can raise a crowd for anything. For a few dollars a day, you can get protestors in favor or against any cause.

This was clearly not a rent-a-crowd. Normally, such crowds are filled with indifferent "protestors" doing the absolute minimum necessary to get paid. They spend most of their time texting on their mobile phones and trying to sneak off until the money gets passed around.

These people were carrying icons and singing with great enthusiasm; not always the same tune. I can now report that there are people who sing worse than I do. Probably 98% of the women were wearing headscarves; about 95% in skirts or dresses. Not a rent-a-crowd.

Many of the people were carrying Russian flags and banners with political slogans, many guaranteed to offend NATO, every one guaranteed to offend the nationalist government and creepy Filaret.

Many monarchists, some of them wishing that Putin would take on the tsardom. Almost everyone in Ukraine loves Putin, so this is no surprise. Some strange people were in attendance, the grown-ups playing soldier and one very enthusiastic young man who wanted Rasputin proclaimed a saint.

The Church is a large family, and every family has some odd members.

IV.

The entire walk would have been at least four miles. The government had marked the route with Greek and Ukrainian flags. No Russian.

Busses filled with riot police followed the procession.

We arrived at the Lavra, barely any room to get in. A police officer with a large camera snapped photos of the crowd as it entered.

I was surprised that noone fainted in the crush of the crowd. The crowd parted like the sea as some Bishops entered.

A lunch (kasha and tea) was served. I did not eat. While drinking kvas, one older gentleman was telling strange stories about political machinations and that Alexei had to go home.

After lunch, we went to see the assembled heirarchs. I made friends with a sweet older lady from Cherson, who had come to Kiev and planned to sleep in a church (this is a traditional Russian way to get around on a low budget.) I invited her to stay with us if she wished.

Together we waited for the Patriarchs and joked with a couple of Russian "businessmen" who had taken security upon themselves. In their opinion, this had to be done because the Ukrainian government could not be trusted to protect Alexei. I personally doubt that the government would want to provoke an international incident like that.

Security were surprisingly gentle with us, as they moved us around. You don't see that much. The lady from Cherson climbed a stone wall like Zaccheus to see Alexei, and asked me to pass a letter to Bishop Iov.

[Protoevangel]

I might as well tell you what I saw, since I live in Kiev. I do not mean to offend, but I will tell you what I heard and saw.

Full and fair disclosure: I agree with Mike's analysis of the situation in Ukraine, but I would not be as nice about it if it were me.
I enjoy your reporting. Do you have more detail on the event?

[cassc]

I might as well tell you what I saw, since I live in Kiev. I do not mean to offend, but I will tell you what I heard and saw.

Hmm, thank you for the first hand account. That sounds like quite a day.


I made friends with a sweet older lady from Cherson, who had come to Kiev and planned to sleep in a church (this is a traditional Russian way to get around on a low budget.)

Can you really sleep in Churches? That seems like a nice option.

[Dorothea]

Here's a recent story on this that I just saw:

Ukraine and Russia Face Off Over Christian OrthodoxyBy Emma Stickgold
Moscow
27 July 2008

Top Orthodox Christian leaders gathered in Ukraine's capital this week to mark the 1,020th anniversary of the region's conversion to Christianity. But Russian leaders are viewing the festivities as a politically motivated demonstration of a growing schism between the Ukrainian and Russian churches. As Emma Stickgold reports for the VOA from Moscow, apparent political overtones threatened to cast a pall over the elaborate religious ceremonies.

http://voanews.com/english/images/ap-ukraine-orthodox-celebration-174eng27jul08.jpgPriests carry a religious relic after a liturgy in Kyiv, 27 Jul 2008On the surface it seemed like a routine celebration of Christianity's rich history in the region, as the haunting melodies of traditional Christian chants mixed with scent of incense sent swirling by Orthodox clergy in their customary gold vestments.

But numerous comments and actions preceding the solemn liturgy were viewed by many in Moscow as a clear sign that Ukraine is trying to consolidate its three Orthodox churches into one united church that is no longer under Russian influence.

Orthodox believers in Ukraine and Russia trace their faith to Kyivan Rus, an ancient state that ruled Ukraine and parts of today's Russia, and which adopted Christianity in 988. Over the centuries, Ukrainians and Russians developed separate ethnic identities and languages.

During the Soviet era, the Orthodox patriarch in Moscow had control over Ukraine's Orthodox churches. Many of them continue to recognize the Moscow patriarch, but other Ukrainians are seeking recognition of their own church leader in Kyiv.

Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko ruffled some feathers Saturday when he asked Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I, the Istanbul-based spiritual leader for about 250 million people worldwide, to bless the creation of a Ukrainian church that would be independent of Russia.

Mr. Yushchenko says he considers Patriarch Bartholomew's visit as recognition of the achievements of Ukrainian Christians and the Ukrainian Church.

The Russian and Ukrainian churches both fall under the purview of the Orthodox Christian church and Patriarch Bartholomew, who arrived last week in Kyiv.

Bartholomew says he came to celebrate a joint mass in favor of unifying all Orthodox believers in Ukraine into one church.

Though his remarks were non-committal, they were seen by many in Ukraine and Russia as supportive of the bid to move away from Russia's jurisdiction. Russian Orthodox leaders downplayed the perceived backing of an independent Ukrainian church.

But President Yushchenko's role in this weekend's ceremonies gave it a political charge that made Moscow uneasy, with Ministry of Foreign Affairs officials calling recent Ukrainian actions disrespectful towards Russian Orthodox leaders.

The reaction underscored recent political tensions that have emerged surrounding Ukraine's bid to join NATO against Moscow's wishes, and other brewing skirmishes such as the fate of the Russian naval base in Sevastopol on Ukraine's Crimean peninsula.

Russia Profile magazine editor Andrei Zolotov, whose area of specialty is the Orthodox Church, told VOA that the politicization of this weekends' event was in no way subtle, and that there may be repercussions if the church's fate remains in the political arena.

"So, sooner or later, these issues have to be resolved and the unification of the orthodoxies in Ukraine is very necessary and this is a very, kind of the whole situation is a very painful wound on the body of the Orthodox Church worldwide, but of course the attempt to push these measures - to have an excessive kind of pressure from the government to do this can result not in healing this wound, but in actually exacerbating the problem," said Andrei Zolotov.

But Patriarch Bartholomew said the unity of the church transcends any political or religious objective.



I pray the EP is right on that!!!

[ArnautDaniel]

anyhow what is your interest in this? you are not Orthodox obviously... I do not mean to be rude just curious why a matte such as this would interest you... This is an internal Orthodox Church matter and you are just an outsider looking inside... Matters of that nature are much more complicated than what meets the eye....:yawn:

I find the place the MP and the ROC seem to be occupying in post-Soviet Russia interesting.

Russia (of course) feels it should be to regain something of its former superpower grandeur. It wouldn't surprise me if the Orthodox in general are seen as potential Russian allies in other nations (rather the way the Chinese government sees Chinese emigrants abroad).

It also wouldn't surprise me if this translates to a feeling that the MP should run the Orthodox churches in general.

There is certainly some nationalism in all this that goes beyond mere church politics.

[Protoevangel]

Alexy II, Bartholomew I conducting divine service in Kiev

Kiev, July 27, Interfax - Patriarch Alexy II of Moscow and All Russia and Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople are jointly conducting an open-air divine service in Kiev on Sunday, marking 1020 years since Christianity was adopted in Kievan Rus.Full Story (http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=5002)


Alexy II, Bartholomew I confirm readiness to solve problem through dialog

Moscow, July 27, Interfax - Patriarch Alexy II of Moscow and All Russia and Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople have stated the need to hold talks between the two churches in order to resolve issues of controversy.
Full Story (http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=5006)


Russian Orthodox leader urges church unity

Kiev, July 26, Interfax - The head of the Russian Orthodox Church Patriarch Alexy II urged Orthodox believers in Kiev on Saturday to pray for church unity.Full Story (http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=5001)

[Protoevangel]

Thousands greet head of Russian Church during Kiev visit

Kiev, July 26, Interfax - Patriarch Alexy II of Moscow and All Russia was greeted by thousands of people on the streets of Kiev, where he arrived from Moscow on Saturday, an Interfax-Religion reports.



Full Story (http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=dujour&div=36)

[Dorothea]

Alexy II, Bartholomew I confirm readiness to solve problem through dialog

Moscow, July 27, Interfax - Patriarch Alexy II of Moscow and All Russia and Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople have stated the need to hold talks between the two churches in order to resolve issues of controversy.





Full Story (http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=5006)
That's good to know. I'm glad to see they will be holding talks.

[Komnenos]

Praise God! It looks like a peaceful resolution after all.

[Philothei]

http://www.euronews.net/en/article/27/07/2008/orthodox-church-calls-for-an-end-to-religous-row/

I found the video....yay...
!!!!!!

They both look akward... do they? I thought the report was very clear too...


thanks for the links Proto :)

[Prawnik]

I enjoy your reporting. Do you have more detail on the event?

Tell me what you wish to know.

As an aside, I tend to distrust the reporting on Ukraine or Russia that you find in most news sources. Even where I wonder if we are talking about the same country.

Western reporters in Ukraine tend to come in two flavors - those with an agenda to push and professional journalists for whom Kiev is just a rung on the career ladder.

Because the second type have little depth of interest in Ukraine or Russia, they tend to write stories which fit their preconceived notions or what their editor wants to see so that they can get a more prestigious assignment elsewhere.

They are also very limited in their perception and first-hand knowledge. Most have rarely ventured beyond the downtown areas of the capital city, which is a very different world than that of the average frustrated Ukrainian. If they associate with locals at all, it tends to be with relatively westernized, English-speaking professionals. I don't need to tell you that these people are not typical Ukrainians in habits, beliefs, or attitudes.

For that matter, the journalists don't have much choice. They don't speak Russian, so they are forced to stick to places where people speak English and to rely on English-speaking sources.

Something similar can be said for many journalists of the first type.

[Prawnik]

http://www.euronews.net/en/article/27/07/2008/orthodox-church-calls-for-an-end-to-religous-row/

I found the video....yay...
!!!!!!

They both look akward... do they? I thought the report was very clear too...

Thanks for the link. You might see my monkey face in the video somewhere, but I doubt it. I have not looked.

That is some genuinely bizarre reporting. It seems to be some generic phrases rammed together, but the end result makes it sound as if Alexei doesn't want unity.

[Prawnik]

n.b. I was not there, so I cannot confirm this personally, but many people told me that this happened:

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=5004

I can confirm the presence of banners suggesting that Ukraine has no need for autocephaly and the Church there should be run directly from Moscow.

[rusmeister]

Tell me what you wish to know.

As an aside, I tend to distrust the reporting on Ukraine or Russia that you find in most news sources. Even where I wonder if we are talking about the same country.

Western reporters in Ukraine tend to come in two flavors - those with an agenda to push and professional journalists for whom Kiev is just a rung on the career ladder.

Because the second type have little depth of interest in Ukraine or Russia, they tend to write stories which fit their preconceived notions or what their editor wants to see so that they can get a more prestigious assignment elsewhere.

They are also very limited in their perception and first-hand knowledge. Most have rarely ventured beyond the downtown areas of the capital city, which is a very different world than that of the average frustrated Ukrainian. If they associate with locals at all, it tends to be with relatively westernized, English-speaking professionals. I don't need to tell you that these people are not typical Ukrainians in habits, beliefs, or attitudes.

For that matter, the journalists don't have much choice. They don't speak Russian, so they are forced to stick to places where people speak English and to rely on English-speaking sources.

Something similar can be said for many journalists of the first type.

Hey, Prawnik! Nice to see you around!

Ditto on all that, and the same goes for Moscow and probably everywhere. That's the essence of journalism today. The trouble is, we're conditioned to believe it, because it's in print from a traditional news source.

[Prawnik]

I find the place the MP and the ROC seem to be occupying in post-Soviet Russia interesting.

Russia (of course) feels it should be to regain something of its former superpower grandeur. It wouldn't surprise me if the Orthodox in general are seen as potential Russian allies in other nations (rather the way the Chinese government sees Chinese emigrants abroad).

It also wouldn't surprise me if this translates to a feeling that the MP should run the Orthodox churches in general.

There is certainly some nationalism in all this that goes beyond mere church politics.

Jump to conclusions at all?