The Birth Control Pill and Christian Greek Orthodox Faith

[Bride-to-be]

Where in the BIBLE :liturgy: and in the Greek Orthodox Faith does it state that taking the pill is a sin?

I have done everything right. I have my self respect, morals and I am a good person. I am a virgin and staying until after I am married this year in September.

I wanted to visit the gynaecologists to have a check up as my mum had a hard time conceiving and I have her genes. Also I wanted to go on the pill so I will not have my periods on my wedding day and honeymoon. I will be in the pill for 3 months max.

My fiance is against the pill due to him been more religious than me. I just do not understand why taking the PILL is such a sin.

Does the birth control pill actually abort an egg that is fertilised? OR is that just a MYTH???

The hormones in the pill work by keeping a woman’s ovaries from releasing eggs — ovulation. Pregnancy cannot happen if there is no egg to join with sperm. The hormones in the pill also prevent pregnancy by thickening a woman’s cervical mucus. The mucus blocks sperm and keeps it from joining with an egg.

Some people say that the pill works by keeping a fertilised egg from attaching to the lining of the uterus. But there is no proof that this actually happens. :confused:

:groupray: People have told my fiance that the pill does abort a fertilised egg. This is already stressing me out among the wedding plans. My fiance said that he will humble himself and wear a condom, since he understands that I do not want to have a honeymoon baby and wait a few months during our marriage before we fall pregnant. But it is not that easy for newly-weds who are both virgins to start using condoms and sleep together. I just want to have a clear mind and not worry about falling pregnant on my wedding night, having sex for the first time is frightening.

Is taking the pill that bad - how is this against nature and what god intended in a marriage? Am I been selfish wanting to wait a few months into the marriage to fall pregnant?

What is the best thing to do in this case? Do I listen to my future husband and not take the pill? We are going to see a priest tomorrow and speak about this issue. I am also going to see a gynaecologist next week due to 2 cyst that I have - on the cervix and ovary.

I have been tracking my periods since March and I am due to have my periods on my honeymoon. I also do get very depressed a week before I am due for my periods. I do not want to be all teary the week before my wedding and on the day.

I am not the first and the last woman that wants to take the pill on her honeymoon. It seems to be the norm these days, every woman is taking the pill on their honeymoon.

I wasn't going to take the pill behind my future husbands back. What type of marriage would I have?

We went and spoke to the priest (monk) the church said that I will be committing murder if I took the Pill and what if an egg gets fertilised and I abort it. Would I want to see my child in the after life. I am so confused. What are the chances that an egg would get fertilised, when the pill was designed to stop you from ovulating. Where is the proof?

He also said that there are safe days when you can have sex and not fall pregnant. For instance during your periods (which would be disgusting). I have also known that you can get pregnant while you have your periods, as sperm can live for maximum 5 days in your body. Had a terrible argument with my fiance over this and I should not have said that the priest was wrong. I have been doing a lot of reading.

He also said that I am making a mountain over a mole hill discussing such an issue with my fiance. My fiance did tell him before he met me that when he gets married he will impregnate his wife on the first night. I did not know of this, I found out last night. The priest also said that it is a big thing that my fiance is doing for me by wearing a condom, so I wont get pregnant straight away. Is it such a bad thing to want to have 6-12 months with my husband before we bring a child into this world, which is a life long commitment and responsibility. I have only known my fiance for a year and we are getting married in 2-3 months. The first year of marriage is the hardest.

He did make one good point: why can't your marriage be a honeymoon until the day you die?

[angrylittlefisherman]

My wife and I went to our priest and asked him about the Orthodox standpoint towards birth control. This is sort of a summary of what he told me. Scripture was not written at a time when we had so many "advances" medically and technologically, so the difficulty comes in applying it to these modern times. "The Pill" contains abortifacients, these are chemicals that cause the fetus to be aborted, and scripture is against killing human life, and we believe that abortion is murder. Hence if you willingly and knowingly take something that contains and abortifacient, then you may be committing murder. So to avoid this very likely potential for murder, the Church takes a stand against the the pill. What you should do is research the birth control you may need to assure that you have done your best to try to assure that the method is a right one. Most birth control does not eliminate entirely a period, it simply makes it less intense and more bearable, many of the girls I know use birth control to relieve some of the discomfort that it causes, but it does not make it go away. I do believe that there are other options out there to do this apart from birth control pills.
This is very difficult decision to make, and I am pleased to see you are taking it seriously.
God bless your soon to be marriage and may he preserve it for many years.:crosseo:

[buzuxi02]

The Church does not forbid limited use of birth control pills. Of course it is not the norm and not something that will ever be promoted, just like the taking of any medication for non-health reasons will never be promoted or officially sanctioned.

Now of course a major component of marriage and sex is procreation, as the divine command says 'Be fruitful and multiply".. Hopefully your Priest will counsel both of you on an appropriate route to take, In Orthodoxy this issue is dealt with pastorally, between you and your spiritual father, rather than through some official teaching of the Church.

[Matrona]

Where in the BIBLE :liturgy: and in the Greek Orthodox Faith does it state that taking the pill is a sin?

Because the Orthodox Church has always taught that life begins at conception. We don't rely on just the Bible for our teachings like non-Orthodox do, we use the entire body of tradition handed down from the apostles.

While the Pill does prevent ovulation, if ovulation does occur, and subsequently a conception, the Pill also makes it so that the developing baby can't survive. That's why they tell women not to try using the Pill if they think they might be pregnant already - because taking it while pregnant tends to cause miscarriage. They call it BIRTH control, rather than "conception control", for a reason.

I have done everything right. I have my self respect, morals and I am a good person. I am a virgin and staying until after I am married this year in September.

I wanted to visit the gynaecologists to have a check up as my mum had a hard time conceiving and I have her genes. Also I wanted to go on the pill so I will not have my periods on my wedding day and honeymoon. I will be in the pill for 3 months max.

My fiance is against the pill due to him been more religious than me. I just do not understand why taking the PILL is such a sin.

Does the birth control pill actually abort an egg that is fertilised? OR is that just a MYTH???

The hormones in the pill work by keeping a woman’s ovaries from releasing eggs — ovulation. Pregnancy cannot happen if there is no egg to join with sperm. The hormones in the pill also prevent pregnancy by thickening a woman’s cervical mucus. The mucus blocks sperm and keeps it from joining with an egg.

Some people say that the pill works by keeping a fertilised egg from attaching to the lining of the uterus. But there is no proof that this actually happens. :confused: The pill does not stop your period, it only makes them lighter. And yes, it can cause your body to abort a baby - the reason the pill makes your periods lighter is because it keeps the lining of your uterus from growing thick enough. If you do ovulate and conceive while on the Pill, the lining of your uterus will be too thin for the baby to implant, so the baby will be aborted instead.

You will hear some people tell you that you're not really pregnant until the "egg" implants. (It's actually an embryo by then.) This is a lie put out by the pro-abortion lobby, and completely inconsistent with science or even basic common sense. The same entity that a woman gives birth to, begins at conception. There is not some kind of magical status conferred on it by implantation, or "quickening", or whatever baloney definition of personhood that has been dreamed up lately.

:groupray: People have told my fiance that the pill does abort a fertilised egg. This is already stressing me out among the wedding plans. My fiance said that he will humble himself and wear a condom, since he understands that I do not want to have a honeymoon baby and wait a few months during our marriage before we fall pregnant. But it is not that easy for newly-weds who are both virgins to start using condoms and sleep together. I just want to have a clear mind and not worry about falling pregnant on my wedding night, having sex for the first time is hard enough.

Is taking the pill that bad - how is this against nature and what god intended in a marriage? Am I been selfish wanting to wait a few months into the marriage to fall pregnant?

What is the best thing to do in this case? Do I listen to my future husband or do I take the pill? We are going to see a priest tomorrow and speak about this issue. I am also going to see a gynecologist next week due to 2 cyst that I have - on the cervix and ovary.I'm not married myself, but it seems to me that using birth control behind your husband's back is a bad way to begin a marriage. Marriage is a martyrdom. The reason you and your future husband will be crowned in the wedding ceremony, is as a sign of your martyrdom to each other and to God's will. It is a sign that you and your new husband will be martyring yourselves not just for each other's sake, but for God's. You have been chosen by God to work out your salvation with this man, and he has been chosen by God to work out his salvation with you. That means inviting God's will to rule in your married life, and accepting that following your own will and living solely according to what you would prefer, is not enough to guide you on the path to salvation... or even earthly happiness, for that matter.

The Orthodox Church does not prohibit contraception in every case - methods like condoms and diaphragms ("barrier methods") can be used when advised by your spiritual father. The reason for this is because we recognize that not everyone who wants to use contraception is necessarily doing it for sinful reasons. The reason you have to clear it with your priest is to help you gain perspective on your reasons and to make sure that it does not interfere in your marital or spiritual life.

I should note, though, that the Pill is NEVER allowed, because of its abortion-causing properties, and the only circumstances where you might find someone using it is because they are either flouting Orthodox teaching or their spiritual father is unaware of the prohibition.

I have been tracking my periods since March and I am due to have my periods on my honeymoon.That's an awkward turn of events, but short of changing the date of your wedding, there isn't anything that can be done about it now, pill or no pill.

The normal course of the Pill does not stop your period. Courses like Seasonale (three months of active pills so you have four periods per year instead of twelve) take about a year to take full effect in your body, and in the meantime make it more likely for you to have bleeding and spotting between periods. So you could wind up having a flow like a regular period and not even have a way of predicting when it will come.

Anyone who tells you that there's a foolproof method of stopping your period for three months, doesn't know what they're talking about. The only foolproof way of stopping your periods is by getting a hysterectomy. Anything else that promises to stop them according to your preference is a jar of snake oil.

A more optimal course of action, since you expect your period on your honeymoon, might be to ask your priest about other forms of marital pleasure. There is no law anywhere that states that you must have vaginal intercourse every single day of your honeymoon. You'll have your whole married life for THAT. ;)

Anyway, good luck and best wishes to you and your fiance. May God grant you many blessed years!

[GenkiGirl]

Bride-to-be,

I can understand your frustration. I hope you will take the advice of others here and consult your priest first before making any hasty decisions. When I was engaged I was also in the boat of trying to figure out what method of birth control to use. At the time I was not an Orthodox Christian, and I could have use the pill without any 'moral' problem. However, my take on it was a little different. I was very hesitant about taking medication to stop a normal reaction of the female body. Being fertile is normal. It's how we were created to be. Being infertile, unless you've been through menopause, is abnormal. I couldn't see why I would want to take something that would make my body work in an abnormal way, contridictory to how it was designed to work. I certainly wouldn't take a pill to make me breathe fewer times in an hour, turn my complexion orange, or make my gall bladder vibrate. Taking a pill to stop my body from doing its normal, fertile function seemed the same as that to me.

So I began looking at my options. Condoms: yuck. Personally, I did not want anything, physical or not to come between me and my husband. Especially as we began our marriage. I started talking with a friend about this dilemma and she told me about NFP (Natural Family Planning). I checked it out online at CoupletoCoupleLeague.org and also read a book written by a Protestant couple at the time called Open Embrace. I was convinced that NFP was for me, and talked it over with my fiance. He agreed that it was the best thing for us, and we've been practicing it for 5 years now.

The good thing about it is that it is completely and immediately reversible. With the pill you have wait 3 months after coming off of it to start trying for a pregnancy. With NFP, you switch your routine immediately. When we decided to start trying, I didn't have to wait at all. In fact, NFP was so accurate for us that we were able to conceive immediately and our first child was born a little over a year ago.

Whatever you do decide to do, make sure you really think it over with your husband to be, and speak to your spiritual father about it.

[MariaRegina]

I have known several girls who have tracked their dates, and even postponed their wedding dates so that a period would not coincide only to discover that their period was delayed due to the stress of the marriage preparations, and then, surprise, they still had their period on their wedding day.

From Natural Family Planning studies, it is usually very hard to get pregnant from cycle day 3 to day 5. And a very short cycle is usually infertile too. Natural Family Planning is good to learn before you get married so that you know when you conceive. Although many use NFP as a form of birth control, I used it to try to conceive, and I did finally conceive after 14 months of trying. When I did conceive, I noticed my elevated temperature on cycle Day 15. By Day 17, when I was feeling tired and a bit nauseated, I knew I was pregnant. That day a blood pregnancy test proved it. I used that fact to estimate the birth of my son. I showed a due date of August 4, and my son was born on July 30. The old fashioned method, however, indicated that I was two weeks post-due and the nurse was having a fit about that, so she did not allow me to have a natural child birth in the specially designed rooms. Believe it or not, the nurse would not listen to the doctor.

[MariaRegina]

Interesting, my online icon shows that I am not online, but here I am.

Birth Control Pills mess up your body chemistry and pollute our natural environment. With the large number of women taking these pills, our waterways are being contaminated because these chemical hormones do affect our wildlife. For example, scientists say that the stickleback fish which starts life as a male, is starting life as a female and remains a female for the rest of its life. As a result few male fish are able to fertilize the females and the fish are approaching extinction. Frogs are also being affected by birth control estrogens and other plasticides that mimic estrogen.

We do have to be more responsible what we put into our bodies and how it affects the environment. It is falling short, and is not part of God's plan for our life.

There are also studies which show that newlyweds who postpone having a baby for more than a year, have a higher divorce rate. When a baby finally does come, the couple has become used to living a 'single' lifestyle so that the baby becomes an inconvenience.

[Khaleas]

Matrona,
while the pill doesn't stop your period you can move your period while being on the pill.
Bride-to-be, just because you go on the pill doesn't mean you won't be emotional. A lot of people get super moody from the pill and it can takes months for your emotions to settle down when you're on the pill, or you might even have to switch pills. Plus a bunch of other side effects that aren't to convenient.
Ultimately, whatever people say here, it's an issue between you, your spouse to be and your priest.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Where in the BIBLE :liturgy: and in the Greek Orthodox Faith does it state that taking the pill is a sin?

I have done everything right. I have my self respect, morals and I am a good person. I am a virgin and staying until after I am married this year in September.

I wanted to visit the gynaecologists to have a check up as my mum had a hard time conceiving and I have her genes. Also I wanted to go on the pill so I will not have my periods on my wedding day and honeymoon. I will be in the pill for 3 months max.

My fiance is against the pill due to him been more religious than me. I just do not understand why taking the PILL is such a sin.

Does the birth control pill actually abort an egg that is fertilised? OR is that just a MYTH???

The hormones in the pill work by keeping a woman’s ovaries from releasing eggs — ovulation. Pregnancy cannot happen if there is no egg to join with sperm. The hormones in the pill also prevent pregnancy by thickening a woman’s cervical mucus. The mucus blocks sperm and keeps it from joining with an egg.

Some people say that the pill works by keeping a fertilised egg from attaching to the lining of the uterus. But there is no proof that this actually happens. :confused:

:groupray: People have told my fiance that the pill does abort a fertilised egg. This is already stressing me out among the wedding plans. My fiance said that he will humble himself and wear a condom, since he understands that I do not want to have a honeymoon baby and wait a few months during our marriage before we fall pregnant. But it is not that easy for newly-weds who are both virgins to start using condoms and sleep together. I just want to have a clear mind and not worry about falling pregnant on my wedding night, having sex for the first time is hard enough.

Is taking the pill that bad - how is this against nature and what god intended in a marriage? Am I been selfish wanting to wait a few months into the marriage to fall pregnant?

What is the best thing to do in this case? Do I listen to my future husband or do I take the pill? We are going to see a priest tomorrow and speak about this issue. I am also going to see a gynaecologist next week due to 2 cyst that I have - on the cervix and ovary.

I have been tracking my periods since March and I am due to have my periods on my honeymoon. I also do get very depressed a week before I am due for my periods. I do not want to be all teary the week before my wedding and on the day.

Not to sound harsh, but why even marry your husband if you are not going to be 100% honest with him about such momentous things from the start? If he has made it clear to you that he is against you taking the pill and yet you still want to marry the man, then you must respect his wishes. You taking the pill can be an occasion of sin for him as well as you.

As for birth control, scripture is not 100% completely silent on that and relating matters:

Genesis 38:8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.

[rusmeister]

Welcome to TAW!

What the others said.

I'd add that we do not rely exclusively on our own interpretation of Scripture, but when it matters we seek the Church's teachings and advice of our priests.

[Stringaling]

I have to agree with Matrona. I was on the pill when I became pregnant with my first child. That means that it did not stop ovulation for me. I have researched so much about the pill since then. While I conceived and implantation did occur, that is not the norm. Although there is no way to track and study how many fertilized eggs pass on through and are aborted because of the pill thinning and weakening the endometrial lining, it is known that it happen. In fact back in the 1970's the package inserts for the birth control pills included preventing implantation as one of the three primary ways that the pill works. (1. Preventing ovulation, 2.Thickening cervical mucous to limit sperm motility, 3. Preventing implantation by thinning utering lining)The outcry from pro-life groups pushed the pharmaceutical companies That is why it is no longer spelled out on the insert and why many christians have fallen into that deception, believing that it is not abortifacient.

Also, with my past experience with the pill the side effects are not so pleasant. One even made me VERY depressed. One made me feel just moody all the time. Sexual desire is often subdued because of hormonal suppression. I've heard that it causes weight gain in some people. These things are not really something I would want to risk enduring because of the possibility of a period on the wedding day.

Besides, like Matrona said above, you have your whole lives for the other stuff. Enjoy your honeymoon knowing that...Waiting a couple more days won't kill you..;)

[Dorothea]

Before I was a practicing Orthodox, and before I knew the church's beliefs on contraception, I was on the Pill for about 6 years due to heavy flows. That took care of it, but it also caused me other hormonal problems, and eventually when I was diagnosed with hypoglycemia, it messed with my blood sugar. I got off of it and did ok. My periods were no longer heavy, either. Hubs and I used condoms before and in between the births of our two boys.

[rusmeister]

Still, imo, it's best when nothing artificial (made by humans) is involved! :)

[MariaRegina]

Still, imo, it's best when nothing artificial (made by humans) is involved! :)

I agree, rus.

[buzuxi02]

Wait a sec, maybe because im a guy, i have been mistaken on what the pill is supposed to accomplish. Doesnt it just regulate a womans menstrual cycle and eliminate p.m.s.?
These posts seems to show that there is no difference between the birthcontrol pill and the morning after pill (which is simply an abortion pill). Im not even too sure what post #11 means.

[choirfiend]

Wait a sec, maybe because im a guy, i have been mistaken on what the pill is supposed to accomplish. Doesnt it just regulate a womans menstrual cycle and eliminate p.m.s.?
These posts seems to show that there is no difference between the birthcontrol pill and the morning after pill (which is simply an abortion pill). Im not even too sure what post #11 means.


No, that's not what the pill does at all. Several people (post #4, #11) described things perfectly. If you're still unsure what those mean, you should probably brush up on some basic reproductive biology.

epigee.org is a good resource. It provides information on ALL types of birth control in what seems to be a pretty neutral bias. Check out
http://www.epigee.org/guide/pill.html
to learn about the pill in a basic way. No matter what the companies say, it can and does cause fertilized and developing eggs (ie, a tiny little person) to die. The Church stands against hormonal birth control being used when there is the chance the woman could conceive.

[Protoevangel]

Wait a sec, maybe because im a guy, i have been mistaken on what the pill is supposed to accomplish. Doesnt it just regulate a womans menstrual cycle and eliminate p.m.s.?
These posts seems to show that there is no difference between the birthcontrol pill and the morning after pill (which is simply an abortion pill). Im not even too sure what post #11 means.
Choirfiend and the others are right.

One of the ways the pill works is to prevent implantation, causing a fertilized egg to "pass". Ergo, an innocent human child had just been killed.

[MariaRegina]

I do have a question.

A medical doctor who is pro-life said that birth control pills are made out of concentrated horse urine which contains the hormone. Is this true? I really do not believe that, but he sure convinced a lot of women.

[Matrona]

They used to use hormones derived from the urine of pregnant mares in hormone supplements for menopausal women - "premarin". Now there is a synthetic form available, which is great because the living conditions for the mares who provide the urine were widely known to be horribly abusive.

[Xpycoctomos]

Still, imo, it's best when nothing artificial (made by humans) is involved! :)

You know, my wife and I were talking about this the other day and we agree with this. It seems the Church always has too.

However (and I am not trying to be contrary to you rus, or anyone), what strongly anti-contraception people fail to take into consideration are the real world stresses and the fact that not everyone is at the same place in their faithwalk and perhaps one spouse is farther along than the other, but that spouse needs to take into consideration how a pregnancy would affect the other person.

It goes without saying that ending a pregnancy either through a procedure or inadvertently with the Pill or other chemicals is completely forbidden and will have to be answered for as a grave matter one day. But some marriages just aren't ready for 8 kids. One can say that that is due to lack of faith... and that may be so, but faith needs to be nurtured, not pushed into a corner and yelled at in hopes that it will grow fast. And one can callously say "well, then they shouldn't have sex" but that can be detrimental to a marriage as well.

I believe it is always best when a marriage can go about things completely naturally, the Church fathers seem to be unequivocal about this. And yes, falling short of that is a sin becuase it is missing the mark. It's an ideal that one is to strive for similar to a stronger prayer life. All of us know that we should be praying more, but pushing ourselves quickly into a nun/monk-like rule of prayer can be more detrimental to our spirtuality than simply saying the Our Father every morning and night. We are falling short of God's hope for us, but He also respects Baby Steps... as long as we have a greater goal that we strive toward.

This is why, in my mind, tubal ligations and visectomies are so extreme and so scary. I will never judge a couple that decides on one because I don't understand all of their medical needs or psychological issues that both or one of the spouses (especially the mother) have to deal with. But it is so permament (in most cases) and allows little to no room for you and your spouse to move forward toward the ideal as set by God through the Church.

Using condoms are not living within that perfected state of holy marriage. However, it at least allows people to take baby steps towards perfection. Sure, it can become an impediment too and allow people to have more faith in the condom than in God. But that is something that always needs to be worked on.

NFP, although I do see it as a higher form than condoms now (I didn't used to) is still something that can easily become a crutch and one can have more faith in the method than in God. But certainly for many it is, at the same time, a sign of faith.

My silly categorization of seriousness above is just how I make sense of it in my mind. In the end, though, my point is simply that despite what is "allowed" in practice, none of it is part of the ideal state of marital relations, neither physically nor spiritually, but I don't believe God sees things as all or nothing.

However, for the purpose of the OP abortive or possibly abortive methods (Such as the Pill) should never be considered. While many priests and such remain shamefully silent on this issue, the CHurch has spoken and if we know any of these control methods to create a hostile environment that may impede the healthy develoipment or even the development at all of human life, it is necessarily implied that this is forbidden by the Church. It's not important if they could even dream of the method itself. IT's wrong and is a serious and grave sin beyond most that can be mentioned. Unfortunately in our times, most of us are not aware of this and to be frank, our Church (at least in the States) does not help as this is not spoken of much at all. I remember I spoke to a prominent priest once in person about this issue and he stuttered and couldn't answer my questions and just kept saying "it's between a priest and the person". Well, everything is. But where does that priest get his guidance from? What's the norm? Why isn't that preached like the importance of fasting and intense prayer is? Surely is life not even more important than fasting?

But while many within the Church remain silent, the Church Herself has not. I believe we will make it through this difficult time and the Holy Spirit will force the CHurch to unequivocably speak to this issue once again so that there is no confusion among the lay. And we need to understand that the Church is not attempting to oppress anyone but looking after the innocent life as well as our spiritual well being because we will have to answer for our sins one day, even those done in ignorance.

Xpy

[Xpycoctomos]

Wait a sec, maybe because im a guy, i have been mistaken on what the pill is supposed to accomplish. Doesnt it just regulate a womans menstrual cycle and eliminate p.m.s.?
These posts seems to show that there is no difference between the birthcontrol pill and the morning after pill (which is simply an abortion pill). Im not even too sure what post #11 means.

It's meant to prevent ovulation. That is it's primary function. A side effect of that is that it regulates periods. That has been helpful to many sexually inactive girls (and imo is an entirely different issue... perhaps still medically controversial, but not morally).

But it is important to understand how the body reacts to the prevention or attempted prevention of ovulation. If the uterus isn't expecting an egg, it's not going to prepare for any possible implantation and so, if ovulation does occur (ie the Pill fails which HAS been proven to happen before, no one denies this) and an egg is fertalized, it essentially has nowhere safe to go and it is very unlikely that it will be able to implant. In other words, a hostile environment is created for the fertalized egg and then is flushed out.. a less grotesque version of abortion, although just as real.

It is true that this happens a lot anyhow in healthy women not on the pill (very early spontaneous abortions happen without women ever knowing they were pregnant in the first place), but for it to happen as a result of our choices, choices specifically meant to prevent a pregnancy, choices that said "I really don't want to be pregant" (and you get your wish!), is now placed on our hearts and our souls. I am not judging what should or would happen to that person on judgement day, but I'm also not saying what will happen to the women and men who walk into abortion clinics either. May God haver mercy on my soul just as He has mercy on theirs!

Xpy

[rusmeister]

Thanks, Xpy - that fits everything I know.

[Kristos]

He did make one good point: why can't your marriage be a honeymoon until the day you die?


Bride-to-be,

You got yourself a keeper:) May God bless your union!

[Julina]

could there ever be any good reasons for not wanting to have children?

[Kristos]

could there ever be any good reasons for not wanting to have children?

Sure - if you want to devote your entire life to God. I suppose that would be a good reason.

[Xpycoctomos]

could there ever be any good reasons for not wanting to have children?

For a married person I think the general consensus of the Church in both word and practice would be no. However, that does not at all mean that people should just have children anyway and hope they get cured of this sickness. They should deal with the underlying issues first (ideally). If God wishes to push them into it... the He will... and Has :)

So, I suppose I would say there is no "Holy" reason for not wanting children if you are intending to marry. But again, that doesn't translate into having children as a cure :)

Xpy

[Dorothea]

What if preventive pretty permanent measures to not get pregnant was made before the couple knew their church was against it because they were pretty new to the faith and didn't even think about that issue being an issue?? Are we going to be in dire circumstances on judgment day for our ignorance?

[choirfiend]

We pray for the forgiveness of sins committed in ignorance or in knowledge, and God forgives.

[Xpycoctomos]

What if preventive pretty permanent measures to not get pregnant was made before the couple knew their church was against it because they were pretty new to the faith and didn't even think about that issue being an issue?? Are we going to be in dire circumstances on judgment day for our ignorance?

Do you mean like visectomies or abortive measures like the Pill? Well, anyway, while I will not predicetGod's reaction on JD, I will only say that God understands our weaknesses and He is not an arbitrary judge. Certainly He takes ignorance into great account.

I hope you didn't take any of what I said as a prediction of HOW God would or should judge anyone, even those who have had abortions! IT certainly was not the purpose of my posts. God save me if it were!

Xpy

[Xpycoctomos]

We pray for the forgiveness of sins committedin ignorance or in knowledge, and God forgives.

And that (the part I bolded) is the most important part to remember.

[Matrona]

So, I suppose I would say there is no "Holy" reason for not wanting children if you are intending to marry. But again, that doesn't translate into having children as a cure :)

I think that we'd all agree that welcoming children, wherever and however they are given to us, is the more perfect path. But there are couples with reason enough to use contraception and we are not supposed to judge them. I know married couples who have been advised to (not merely allowed to) use contraception in the first few years of marriage because of other concerns in their lives.

[Julina]

maybe i just worry too much :( but i know if i were to get married right now i really would not want to have any kids right away. i'm afraid i'd never be a good mother.

[Kristos]

I think that's common. I would only worry, if you weren't worried about it:P

[Xpycoctomos]

I think that we'd all agree that welcoming children, wherever and however they are given to us, is the more perfect path. But there are couples with reason enough to use contraception and we are not supposed to judge them. I know married couples who have been advised to (not merely allowed to) use contraception in the first few years of marriage because of other concerns in their lives.

Good point. Adoption is something I hadn't kept in mind when writing. The idea is simply that hatred or rejection of children is considered a problemin the Church. Perhaps not everyone is ready to accept a child (either by adoption or biologically) into their home for various reasons (financial, psychological, etc...) and of course we should never judge anyone. But there should be some initial sadness upon realizing this fact, and I am sure there is. I know people who have had visectomies, use non-abortive contraceptions and choose to only have one, a couple or no children at all. And I don't know there circumstances. That may very well be the best spiritual decision for them. I don't judge them at all, how could I?

But Hopko says that if a couple cannot ever recieve children into their home then they should be sure to make helping children in an active way a major part of their life's goal. I think there is a lot of truth to that.

Xpy

[Xpycoctomos]

maybe i just worry too much :( but i know if i were to get married right now i really would not want to have any kids right away. i'm afraid i'd never be a good mother.

This is the problem with contraception. It has become such a viable option in our minds that we use it as a crutch. There may very well be things I don't know about you so I am not trying to tell you what to do. However, you concern is not at all new. May women (and men) worry about the same thing. And they still worry about it even 5 years after thy have been married and frist find out they are finally pregnant. That fear doesn't go away until you actually have the kid in yoru hands and realize... "I can do this!... and it's still scary!" The greatest blessigns are scary.

Speaking of which... my blessing crying for no apparent reason. :) Got to go!

Xpy

[Dorothea]

Do you mean like visectomies or abortive measures like the Pill? Well, anyway, while I will not predicetGod's reaction on JD, I will only say that God understands our weaknesses and He is not an arbitrary judge. Certainly He takes ignorance into great account.

I hope you didn't take any of what I said as a prediction of HOW God would or should judge anyone, even those who have had abortions! IT certainly was not the purpose of my posts. God save me if it were!

Xpy
I was talking about vesectomies.

[Xpycoctomos]

What's the past is the past. God forgives those who repent. That's the most important thing of all to remember. Your priest will surely have wiser more helpful things to say, though.

[Dorothea]

Thanks, Xpy.

[Julina]

This is the problem with contraception. It has become such a viable option in our minds that we use it as a crutch.
see i've also heard stories about contraception not working that i probably wouldn't even want to have sex on my wedding night. i really just don't want to rush in to things.
However, you concern is not at all new. May women (and men) worry about the same thing. And they still worry about it even 5 years after thy have been married and frist find out they are finally pregnant. That fear doesn't go away until you actually have the kid in yoru hands and realize... "I can do this!... and it's still scary!" The greatest blessigns are scary.
yeah i was kind of wondering if parenting just comes naturally.

[rusmeister]

Have to tell you about the pacifier rule, though -
With the first child, when the pacifier falls to the floor, you panic, pick it up, sterilize it with boiling water, etc before using again.
With the second child, when the pacifier falls to the floor, you pick it up and rinse it.
With the third child, when the pacifier falls to the floor, you pop it in your own mouth first.
By the time you get to the fourth child, you give it to the dog to lick...

[MariaRegina]

Have to tell you about the pacifier rule, though -
With the first child, when the pacifier falls to the floor, you panic, pick it up, sterilize it with boiling water, etc before using again.
With the second child, when the pacifier falls to the floor, you pick it up and rinse it.
With the third child, when the pacifier falls to the floor, you pop it in your own mouth first.
By the time you get to the fourth child, you give it to the dog to lick...

I breastfed my son until he was 3.5 years old. So he never had a pacifier and hated to look at them.
He never sucked his thumb either. (Maybe in the womb, but that I could not observe.) :)

[Dorothea]

Have to tell you about the pacifier rule, though -
With the first child, when the pacifier falls to the floor, you panic, pick it up, sterilize it with boiling water, etc before using again.
With the second child, when the pacifier falls to the floor, you pick it up and rinse it.
With the third child, when the pacifier falls to the floor, you pop it in your own mouth first.
By the time you get to the fourth child, you give it to the dog to lick...
^_^ I've just got 2, and the first one, I washed when the passy fell, but with the second child, I blew on it, rubbed it off with the palm of my hand, and gave it to him. ^_^

[Khaleas]

Have to tell you about the pacifier rule, though -
With the first child, when the pacifier falls to the floor, you panic, pick it up, sterilize it with boiling water, etc before using again.
With the second child, when the pacifier falls to the floor, you pick it up and rinse it.
With the third child, when the pacifier falls to the floor, you pop it in your own mouth first.
By the time you get to the fourth child, you give it to the dog to lick...

I'm the first and I have a ton of dental problems because of the bacteria that was transfered from my parents to me. I have straight pretty teeth but plenty of fillings...
Aka don't 'suck' on your kids pacifier... we've learned the hard way.

[cassc]

Bride-to-be, I can't imagine that you got the answers you were hoping for and it probably a little (or a lot overwhelming). I can't disagree with what everyone else has told you, but I will share what Archbishop Demitrios said a few weeks ago at a Young Adult Question and Answer session when asked why the Church does not more definitively take a stance on social and moral issues of today: (I'm paraphrasing) but he told us that the Church does not wish to overburden the faithful by getting involved in their personal lives. Now I'm sure he didn't mean it quite as lackadaisical as I present it but I think the general sentiment is true. Pray and I think God will guide your heart.

Forgive me.

[Xpycoctomos]

Have to tell you about the pacifier rule, though -
With the first child, when the pacifier falls to the floor, you panic, pick it up, sterilize it with boiling water, etc before using again.
With the second child, when the pacifier falls to the floor, you pick it up and rinse it.
With the third child, when the pacifier falls to the floor, you pop it in your own mouth first.
By the time you get to the fourth child, you give it to the dog to lick...

we're already on the second stage as of lately... but with our first child! lol

[Bride-to-be]

I am still a virgin. Just wanted to go on the pill to delay my periods for a few days until after the wedding. I have bad PMS and period pain, which requires me to be in bed (missing in action).

Once the wedding is over, I am not fused over getting my periods on my honeymoon. I will be off them before our marriage is consummated. So there is no chance of an egg getting fertilised and aborted.

We both agreed to use condoms. So there will be no sperm reaching an egg!

[Anhelyna]

I am still a virgin. Just wanted to go on the pill to delay my periods for a few days until after the wedding. I have bad PMS and period pain, which requires me to be in bed (missing in action).I hate to break it to you - but unless you have started treatment long before this - it's toooooo late to delay menstruation for your wedding.

Oops just noticed this

We both agreed to use condoms. So there will be no sperm reaching an egg!

You wanna bet ? Has man ever made anything that is perfect ?

[Barky]

Bride-to-be, I can't imagine that you got the answers you were hoping for and it probably a little (or a lot overwhelming). I can't disagree with what everyone else has told you, but I will share what Archbishop Demitrios said a few weeks ago at a Young Adult Question and Answer session when asked why the Church does not more definitively take a stance on social and moral issues of today: (I'm paraphrasing) but he told us that the Church does not wish to overburden the faithful by getting involved in their personal lives. Now I'm sure he didn't mean it quite as lackadaisical as I present it but I think the general sentiment is true. Pray and I think God will guide your heart.

Forgive me.

This seems strange to me. Orthodoxy demands intrusion into your personal life if you are to be a follower. It commands every thought to be on getting to God.

I can't think of something more intrusive in to the personal life, and that's a good thing.

[Chocolatesa]

might be to ask your priest about other forms of marital pleasure.

Is it just me or does this sound a bit off??? I wouldn't go to a priest to ask about that specific question, if you don't already know of other kinds of "marital pleasure" other than vaginal intercourse, use your imagination or ask a married friend :)

But everything else she said is great! :D