Strict rules against...

[HalcyonFire]

...anything to do with other religions... (I mean the Jews have strict rules)... Doesn't this make the conversion of Jews to Christianity all the more unlikely? How do you even step over this thresh hold and ponder it...?? Just curious... if you don't wanna share in public feel free to PM me.

[Torah613]

these are fence laws designed to protect Israil from assimilation. Of course this is my interpretation. Regarding not speaking or writing the names of other gods, we actually dont' know why this is. It simply is.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

sure. I understand that. I just think it's interesting that some have gone outside these fences.

[Torah613]

Some fall off the darach, and some of those return (such as me--B"H)

Yochanan

[Torah613]

with any fence, there's always going to be those that jump it. For instance, during medeival times, it was punishable by death to leave the church. There were some, some of the early protestant reformers for instance, who jumped that fence. Its the nature of human beings to test their limits.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

um... wasn't what Eve did creating a fence?

[Torah613]

excuse me? I don't get the reference??

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

the not only don't eat but don't touch thing

[Torah613]

ok it could be inferred that Chava was setting up a gezirah or fence law. Unfortunately she did not keep it. Nor was such a law necessary as the halacha was given quite specifically. With some halachot in the written torah the actual law is a bit hazy looking and so we must look to the Oral Torah for the explanation (non Orthodox Rabbinic Jews woudl use a different interprative standard outside of tradition). One of the primary places to look for such explanations is the Shulcham Aruch, the definitive code of Jewish Law.

Many other practices taht some see as gezirah laws are actually not Halacha. They are in fact Minhag. However, Minhag (custom) is something that has become so ingrained in a community it carries the force of Halacha, however it only carries such force within the actual community in question and not in the rest of frum soceity. For instance Chabadnik women will toivel plastic. Most other frum Jews will not.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

I understand the need to clarify or be sure when something is vague.... like if I said "thou shalt not run"... what is running? is running moving at a certain speed? with a certain motion?

so how does one differ halacha from minhag really?

[Lulav]

It's not a world wide thing that is why it is hard for an outsider to understand, it is about community, what one community does may differ ( and usually does) from another community ( space is not a factor). Even keeping certain mitzvot are interpreted differently that is why you are to rely solely on your local Orthodox Rabbi to tell you what to do.

That is why for me to have only one is such a blessing! :)

[HalcyonFire]

my question is then, how can you call judaism any more united than Christianity??? (seems to me that sounds alot like the way church denoms work)

[Torah613]

oy my friend? You have just asked a question that would take like 6 years of yeshiva study to answer.

Yochanan

ps: I forgot to quote, but this post was about the difference between halacha and minhag.

[HalcyonFire]

oh. me and my big questions.
:)

hehehe

okay...

so anyway, it would be unusual for people to step out of this fence...so wouldn't that make conversion a rare thing?

[Torah613]

it is a very rare thing, at least for those who are frum.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

but it does happen. i just wonder about the psychology behind it. (more in a clinical sense than a religious one to be perfectly honest) to me it would be like being against murder, murdering someone and going beyond that to liking it (not saying this as a moral similarity, but that the desire NOT to do the first thing has to be super huge - just trying to match the severity of the idea is all)

[Torah613]

Jews have always wondered why people who are raised frum go off the darach.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

seems to me something really intense must have to happen to cause someone to dismiss their whole lives teaching... (but I guess the same could be said for a Christian converting to Judaism)

[Torah613]

I cannot comment on that given the rules of the forum.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

hmmm... okay. is there some way to rephrase that?

[HalcyonFire]

so people can comment i mean

[Torah613]

not within the rules of the forum.

Yochanan

[FaithfulWife]

:clap: YAY~

I was just wondering if maybe *I* could assist in moving this thread along. You see, I am a person who was raised christian and who has understood that I'm an undeserving sinner but that HaShem loves me and created a way for me since I was young! But as a person who was about 25 years old at the time, I began my studies and I think finally converted when I was early 30's.

;) So I can discuss this topic a little "in reverse" and be discussing the christian side--not "promoting another religion" but using christianity to discuss why/how I came to the place in my life to convert, etc. ;) Do you think I can be of assistance? For example, I can discuss the psychological impact (the stuff that interests you E) and I can attempt the spiritual side, although as a human I'm not the world's greatest debater via the school of logic nor am I the most theologically trained person. Still, I think I would be a great conduit to keep this thread going!

ElsanRandiMom, you wrote:
... seems to me something really intense must have to happen to cause someone to dismiss their whole lives teaching... (but I guess the same could be said for a Christian converting to Judaism)

Just to be clear, let's do some super, duper simple definitions so we're talking apples and apples, okay? I consider there to be "christians" with a lower "c" who are people who do not happen to be of the other major religions of the world like muslim, buddist, or judaism. They are of that religion and a huge variety of denominations, and some are "christian" by default for living in America but never show any signs of a life-changing love for HaShem or desire to live and please Him. Then there are "Jews" and that is a person who had a Jewish mother (and thus the heritage passed down) or who converted via the approved conversion methods. Then there are "Christians" with a capital "C" whom I also frequently call "Believers." These are people who believe in the divinity of Christ and who through faith alone are brought into a relationship with HaShem--and because of that relationship they have a life-changing way of acting, thinking, and growing ever closer to what HaShem wants them to be. Some Believers become Messianic and have the desire to please HaShem through Torah observance. Some Jews become Believers and come to understand that Yehoshua is the Messiah. So these are terms okay? And I'm not debating terms just saying this is what I mean when I say these terms.

Okay, so you said that you thought something pretty intense must have to happen to cause someone to dismiss their whole lives teaching..., right? I believe you are correct, and furthermore, from what I have come to learn and know, the "something pretty intense" is probably even MORE intense if it's a Jewish-->Christian/Believer change than a christian/Christian-->Jewish change. Here in the U.S. we are taught as "christians by default" not to be prejudice, not to judge by skin-color or religion, not to even judge homosexuality! And yep--some folks still DO judge anyway, but I'm just saying it's something we sort of hear out there...and for for a "christian by default" to go to Judaism it can be a little like the moment that you first hear The Gospel and "get it." It's not utterly and completely against everything that you believe and your head says, "Oh My! That makes sense! It's TRUE!" You realize that you know NOTHING about it, and I mean NO THING, but it's not entirely against the fabric of your being. I think going from Jewish-->Christian/Believer actually IS agains the entire fabric of the being though, because from a young age a Jewish child is taught how to live in a Jewish community; how to never-ever-ever forget that every aspect of life (clothing, food, hair, work, reading, prayer, everything) is an aspect of Judaism, Torah and worshipping HaShem; and that there is a duty (I mean drilled into you OBLIGATION) to stay apart so that you don't mix and dilute and the Torah stays observed. The only thing I can think of that somewhat similar is if a person were a christian or Christian and grew up in a small town of 100, and for that child's whole life in addition to getting to know the folks in town there were certain town traditions and it was deeply engrained in the child that staying in town preserved the traditions and made life for THEIR children safe and good, but leaving town or having new people move in admitted some element that would change things. And that's not even really close it's just maybe something a small-town person could identify with... a little. ^_^

So yep--something MAY JAH usually happens to make someone go either way and give up all that you believe.



~Faithful

[kivi]

my question is then, how can you call judaism any more united than Christianity??? (seems to me that sounds alot like the way church denoms work)

kivi says: personally, I am not here to defend Judaism in that manner. Modernity has been the greatest challenge that Judaism has faced since the two Roman wars. If you are the canary and they leave the cage door open [or better yet, leave the cage door open with a trail of the juiciest sunflower seeds in the world leading out of the cage], it would require a tremendous level of self discipline not to leave the cage. Many Jews have not been able to meet that challenge. The assimulation rates are astromonical. We have fewer Jews in 2007 then in 1939. And the assimulation rate are expected to go up in the next two decades. But, as we have been challenged in the past, so now we are raising to meet the current challenge. Birth rates in the Orthodox community are at an all time high. B'al Tsuvah [Jews returning to Judaism] are incredible. The spiritual, social and cultural vibrancy in Orthodoxy is a true miracle. G-d promised us when He gave us the Torah that he would take care of us. He may punish us for our errors, but He does as a loving father. He will never abandon us and we are always His spiritual shock-troops.

Personally, I work in one small corner of the work effort, the anti missionary part. There are many others all over the different areas of difficulty that modernity has and will continue to cause. Many Jewish organizations work to good effect: CHABAD, Young Israel, OU, Aish, Agudath Israel, hundreds of top rate Yeshivas and Kollels, etc etc etc. We trust in G-d and work our tushes off, every day. What else is there to do?

[HalcyonFire]

thanks faithful wife! that was so illuminating!

kivi... no need to defend. it wasn't a baiting question. it was an offhand remark. :)

[ChavaK]

We have fewer Jews in 2007 then in 1939.

However, this is not necessarily due to assimilation....we lost
one third of our people in the shoah...
Torah scholars and assimilated Jews alike.

[HalcyonFire]

shoah? (holocaust maybe?)

[FaithfulWife]

Yes that's right. In my gramma's generation pretty much the entire Polish Jewish community was wiped out, so yeah--many, MANY, MANY were lost during the holocaust.

(P.S. Yom Ha'Shoah = the Day to Remember the Holocaust)

[HalcyonFire]

so, besides being a horrific event in history for the world... what significance does the holocaust have for Jews... does it have significance like the imprisonment in Egypt did?

[Torah613]

well that is a complicated question. Not to diminish the tragedy in any way, but the Shoah only affected one part (Ashkenaz) of the Jewish world. Of course the Ashkenazic community mourns the spanish inquisition which only affected directly the sephardic population. However, it is a fact that slavery in Egypt affected every Jew, whereas these tragedies do not.

The destruction of the temple, the loss of Yerushalayim, as well as all other tragedies (including HaShoah and the Inquisition) which befell the Jewish people are mourned on Tisha B'av (here in a couple weeks). In addition the Shoah is remembered on Yom HaShoah. Personally, I don't like simply pointing out that it is remembered on Yom HaShoah, because in a very big way its remembered on Israeli Independence Day as well. If the Shoah had not happened, the world would not have been galvinized enough to give us back our homeland. I say this not to diminish in any way the horrendous nature of the shoah but to point out that, as with any tragedy that befalls the Jewish people, there is always that glimmer of hope.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

basically the point of that was, yes the Shoah did affect the whole of the Jewish community, but we've yet to fully feel its effects. That may take generations.

Yochanan

[anisavta]

Hashoah affects every Jew in some way or another. If you don't have family members who were directly involved you have friends who do.