Exercising Authority versus "If It Be Thy Will" Praying

[victoryword]

As I was out jogging this morning I began meditating on some of these issues due to a situation I encountered this weekend. I will spare you the details. Also, I have been reading the book of Exodus as part of my devotional time with the Lord. At the moment I had been reading the chapters concerning the plagues that God would send upon Pharoah and the Egyptians due to Pharoah's stubborness.

I notice that in the case of each plague God first made His will known to Moses, Aaron (and heck, even Pharoah). When it was time to bring the plague upon Pharoah and Egypt, Moses and Aaron were required to exercise their authority based on the revealed will of God before God did anything. For example, when God was ready to plague Egypt with tons of frogs, God gave these instructions:

And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch forth thine hand with thy rod over the streams, over the rivers, and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up upon the land of Egypt. And Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt; and the frogs came up, and covered the land of Egypt (Ex. 8:5, 6)

What would have happened if Aaron had not done this? Do you thik God would have brought about the plague anyway? I personally don't think He would have. Quite often, the known will of God is not done due to our failure to exercise our delegated authority in bringing about His will in our lives. We then blame God for not answering our prayers and bringing things to pass when often times it is our failure to "take the rod of God" and be His vessel for bring about His will.

As I was jogging the Lord reminded me that there is a time to pray and then there is a time to stop crying out to Him to do something and to exercise the authority that we have in Him. He brought me back to Exodus 14:

And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward: But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea (Ex. 14:15, 16)

When Pharoah and his army came after Moses and Israel, they began crying out to the Lord. But God rebuked Moses for this crying out. Moses was waiting for God to do something but God refused to do anything apart from Moses cooperation. Moses had to exercise his delegated authority. It was the will of God for the children of Israel to escape Pharaoh and for God to be glorified, but it was Moses job to us the rod of authority and maake that happen. It was not until Moses obeyed God and then God did something:

And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided (Ex. 14:21)

Now what if Moses was the type to settle everything with an "if it be thy will," making the assumption that if God did not open up the Red Sea that it must have been His will to have all of the Israelites slaughtered right there. This is often what happens to us. We pray and ask God to do things and then God wants to do them, but we also forget that we have an enemy who is stubborn and will fight against the will of God just as Pharaoh often tried to do.

When the answers to our prayers do not come to pass, we blame it on God and claim that it was His will (and some of us even become angry with God). However, there are times when we have to stop praying and start saying with an authority based on God's Word (Mat. 17:20; Mark 11:22-24).

On the flip side of this, those who attempt to challenge us with the idea that we should prove our doctrine by demonstrating to them that we are able to cast mountains into the sea and raise the dead at a whim (and for their entertainment) should know that unless we have either a specific promise to do a specific action or we hear a Word from God to do a certain thing, to take up such a foolish challenge is presumptuous.

I stand by my earlier statement that for someone to ask such a thing is also mimicking Satan as can be seen in Matthew 4:5-7.

Your thoughts are welcomed.

[JimfromOhio]

Subscribing and will comment later :)

[GreatistheLord]

Exercising authority shows we have a relationship with our heavenly Father. It is meant to give glory to God. When we don't know God's will, it is better to wait and pray for discernment, than to pray a prayer and not have faith.

James 1:6

But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.

[mont974x4]

God got angry at Moses when he struck the rock but still performed the miracle. Numbers 20


Jesus Himself asked for the cup to pass from his lips, but still submitted to God's will.

NASB
Mat 26:38 Then He *said to them, "My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me."
Mat 26:39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."
Mat 26:40 And He *came to the disciples and *found them sleeping, and *said to Peter, "So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour?
Mat 26:41 "Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."
Mat 26:42 He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done."


God is not our whipping boy. He does not sit there waiting for us to tell Him what to do according to our whims.


And then there's this:
NASB
Rom 8:24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
Rom 8:26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
Rom 8:27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.


The problem with Wof, and other prosperity teachings is that it places the burden on us. We questions ourselves and our faith. However, when we rest fully in His hands and His will, we are content with whatever happens.


I'll give you an example. Over the last few months I had been job hunting and looking at full time ministry opportunities. I continuously prayed that God would show me the doors He would open for me, and that He would close the doors He knows I should not mess with. As the doors closed, I praised Him for answering my prayer and protecting me and my family. He continues to be faithful and provides for us in so many ways. Had I taken the "name it and claim it" mindset in my prayers I would have ended up discouraged and questioning.

The same can be said for my healing. The fact that I am still alive is a miracle. The fact that I am not in a wheelchair is a miracle. Has He completely healed me? No, but I love Him and I trust Him. He has allowed me, and equipped me, to answer the calls He has placed on my heart regardless of health issues.

[pinetree]

As I was out jogging this morning I began meditating on some of these issues due to a situation I encountered this weekend. I will spare you the details. Also, I have been reading the book of Exodus as part of my devotional time with the Lord. At the moment I had been reading the chapters concerning the plagues that God would send upon Pharoah and the Egyptians due to Pharoah's stubborness.

I notice that in the case of each plague God first made His will known to Moses, Aaron (and heck, even Pharoah). When it was time to bring the plague upon Pharoah and Egypt, Moses and Aaron were required to exercise their authority based on the revealed will of God before God did anything. For example, when God was ready to plague Egypt with tons of frogs, God gave these instructions:

And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch forth thine hand with thy rod over the streams, over the rivers, and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up upon the land of Egypt. And Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt; and the frogs came up, and covered the land of Egypt (Ex. 8:5, 6)
What would have happened if Aaron had not done this? Do you thik God would have brought about the plague anyway? I personally don't think He would have. Quite often, the known will of God is not done due to our failure to exercise our delegated authority in bringing about His will in our lives. We then blame God for not answering our prayers and bringing things to pass when often times it is our failure to "take the rod of God" and be His vessel for bring about His will.

As I was jogging the Lord reminded me that there is a time to pray and then there is a time to stop crying out to Him to do something and to exercise the authority that we have in Him. He brought me back to Exodus 14:

And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward: But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea (Ex. 14:15, 16)
When Pharoah and his army came after Moses and Israel, they began crying out to the Lord. But God rebuked Moses for this crying out. Moses was waiting for God to do something but God refused to do anything apart from Moses cooperation. Moses had to exercise his delegated authority. It was the will of God for the children of Israel to escape Pharaoh and for God to be glorified, but it was Moses job to us the rod of authority and maake that happen. It was not until Moses obeyed God and then God did something:

And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided (Ex. 14:21)
Now what if Moses was the type to settle everything with an "if it be thy will," making the assumption that if God did not open up the Red Sea that it must have been His will to have all of the Israelites slaughtered right there. This is often what happens to us. We pray and ask God to do things and then God wants to do them, but we also forget that we have an enemy who is stubborn and will fight against the will of God just as Pharaoh often tried to do.

When the answers to our prayers do not come to pass, we blame it on God and claim that it was His will (and some of us even become angry with God). However, there are times when we have to stop praying and start saying with an authority based on God's Word (Mat. 17:20; Mark 11:22-24).

On the flip side of this, those who attempt to challenge us with the idea that we should prove our doctrine by demonstrating to them that we are able to cast mountains into the sea and raise the dead at a whim (and for their entertainment) should know that unless we have either a specific promise to do a specific action or we hear a Word from God to do a certain thing, to take up such a foolish challenge is presumptuous.

I stand by my earlier statement that for someone to ask such a thing is also mimicking Satan as can be seen in Matthew 4:5-7.

Your thoughts are welcomed.
Sorry,I dont see any grace here,all the emphasis is placed on the saint.

Is it about the glory of the Lord,or all about our decisions?

[map4]

Yes, and it is not demanding anything from God. It is simply praying and speaking what God's will is in the situation.

Do we miss it sometimes...sure. That is where GRACE come in. :)

But when we know God's will we have every right to see it come to pass. Even if it means WE have to DO something to HELP it happen. It is faith IN HIM to do what He said He would do. It is using the authority He gives us and obeying what He has told us to do.

Just like Jesus did. :)

[Jimbeaux]

As I was out jogging this morning I began meditating on some of these issues due to a situation I encountered this weekend. I will spare you the details. Also, I have been reading the book of Exodus as part of my devotional time with the Lord. At the moment I had been reading the chapters concerning the plagues that God would send upon Pharoah and the Egyptians due to Pharoah's stubborness.

I notice that in the case of each plague God first made His will known to Moses, Aaron (and heck, even Pharoah). When it was time to bring the plague upon Pharoah and Egypt, Moses and Aaron were required to exercise their authority based on the revealed will of God before God did anything. For example, when God was ready to plague Egypt with tons of frogs, God gave these instructions:

And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch forth thine hand with thy rod over the streams, over the rivers, and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up upon the land of Egypt. And Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt; and the frogs came up, and covered the land of Egypt (Ex. 8:5, 6)
What would have happened if Aaron had not done this? Do you thik God would have brought about the plague anyway? I personally don't think He would have. Quite often, the known will of God is not done due to our failure to exercise our delegated authority in bringing about His will in our lives. We then blame God for not answering our prayers and bringing things to pass when often times it is our failure to "take the rod of God" and be His vessel for bring about His will.

As I was jogging the Lord reminded me that there is a time to pray and then there is a time to stop crying out to Him to do something and to exercise the authority that we have in Him. He brought me back to Exodus 14:

And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward: But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea (Ex. 14:15, 16)
When Pharoah and his army came after Moses and Israel, they began crying out to the Lord. But God rebuked Moses for this crying out. Moses was waiting for God to do something but God refused to do anything apart from Moses cooperation. Moses had to exercise his delegated authority. It was the will of God for the children of Israel to escape Pharaoh and for God to be glorified, but it was Moses job to us the rod of authority and maake that happen. It was not until Moses obeyed God and then God did something:

And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided (Ex. 14:21)
Now what if Moses was the type to settle everything with an "if it be thy will," making the assumption that if God did not open up the Red Sea that it must have been His will to have all of the Israelites slaughtered right there. This is often what happens to us. We pray and ask God to do things and then God wants to do them, but we also forget that we have an enemy who is stubborn and will fight against the will of God just as Pharaoh often tried to do.

When the answers to our prayers do not come to pass, we blame it on God and claim that it was His will (and some of us even become angry with God). However, there are times when we have to stop praying and start saying with an authority based on God's Word (Mat. 17:20; Mark 11:22-24).

On the flip side of this, those who attempt to challenge us with the idea that we should prove our doctrine by demonstrating to them that we are able to cast mountains into the sea and raise the dead at a whim (and for their entertainment) should know that unless we have either a specific promise to do a specific action or we hear a Word from God to do a certain thing, to take up such a foolish challenge is presumptuous.

I stand by my earlier statement that for someone to ask such a thing is also mimicking Satan as can be seen in Matthew 4:5-7.

Your thoughts are welcomed.

It seems to me that Moses responded in obedience to God, not exercised authority. Jesus said (I repeat), “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself. He does only what he sees the Father doing. Whatever the Father does, the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him everything he is doing” (John 5.19-20).

And I am not so sure God would not have delivered Israel from Egypt in another way except using Moses. Everything does not hinge on us. We are only allowed to participate with God in His great work. He depends on no one. And I see nothing wrong with submitting to the will of God in everything.

IMHO.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[map4]

Sorry,I dont see any grace here,all the emphasis is placed on the saint.

Is it about the glory of the Lord,or all about our decisions?




No, pinetree. It is not about us except obeying what He tells us to do. HE GETS ALL THE GLORY.
Moses took no glory for himself. Yet, he had to do something. He had to obey. God did the work through him.

Jesus did what the Father said do. He took no glory for himself. But, He had to obey the Father.

God does the work THROUGH US. We take no credit for it. But we do have to obey.

The grace is there. He gives us grace and faith. How else could we do anything?

You yourself have said that it takes grace to even obey.

[JimfromOhio]

It seems to me that Moses responded in obedience to God, not exercised authority. Jesus said (I repeat), “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself. He does only what he sees the Father doing. Whatever the Father does, the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him everything he is doing” (John 5.19-20).

And I am not so sure God would not have delivered Israel from Egypt in another way except using Moses. Everything does not hinge on us. We are only allowed to participate with God in His great work. He depends on no one. And I see nothing wrong with submitting to the will of God in everything.

IMHO.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



You beat me to that part of my reply I will post tonight. :thumbsup:

[CryoftheNation]

Your thoughts are welcomed.


Interesting, I'll read it through again and let you know, but my first thought on reading this was the old adage,

Without God we can do nothing, without us God does nothing.

(Obviously a little simplistic I know:))

God Bless

Simon

[pinetree]

No, pinetree. It is not about us except obeying what He tells us to do. HE GETS ALL THE GLORY.
Moses took no glory for himself. Yet, he had to do something. He had to obey. God did the work through him.

Jesus did what the Father said do. He took no glory for himself. But, He had to obey the Father.

God does the work THROUGH US. We take no credit for it. But we do have to obey.

The grace is there. He gives us grace and faith. How else could we do anything?

You yourself have said that it takes grace to even obey.
Sounds like we are sort of saying the same thing.:)

It seems like in alot of teachings,all the EMPHASIS is placed on the believer.Sure we obey:thumbsup:

But should not the emphasis be put on his power,the throne of grace?

Something can be said,that is scripturally or historically true..

But what is the impression derived from the teaching?

Did it point to the decision of the saint,or the provision of God?

[victoryword]

God got angry at Moses when he struck the rock but still performed the miracle. Numbers 20

This is a valid point. However Moses still did SOMETHING even if he did not do the right right thing:

And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also (Num. 20:11)

So Moses exercised his authority improperly, noetheless he still got results. NOTHING would have happened had Moses done NOTHING.

Jesus Himself asked for the cup to pass from his lips, but still submitted to God's will.

Since this was discussed at length in another thread, I will not waste my time with it here.



The problem with Wof, and other prosperity teachings is that it places the burden on us. We questions ourselves and our faith. However, when we rest fully in His hands and His will, we are content with whatever happens.


I'll give you an example. Over the last few months I had been job hunting and looking at full time ministry opportunities. I continuously prayed that God would show me the doors He would open for me, and that He would close the doors He knows I should not mess with. As the doors closed, I praised Him for answering my prayer and protecting me and my family. He continues to be faithful and provides for us in so many ways. Had I taken the "name it and claim it" mindset in my prayers I would have ended up discouraged and questioning.

The same can be said for my healing. The fact that I am still alive is a miracle. The fact that I am not in a wheelchair is a miracle. Has He completely healed me? No, but I love Him and I trust Him. He has allowed me, and equipped me, to answer the calls He has placed on my heart regardless of health issues.


The problem with many of those who are opposed to so-called WoF teachings is that you simply continue to ignore the Scriptures giving both precepts and examples demonstrating that we have a part to play in seeing the will of God be done. Too many non-wofers excuse their laziness and unwillingness to do what may be necessary under the guise of believing God's "grace" or His "sovereignty."

There are just some things in life that God wills for His children that they will never have because they quit too quickly and too easily. They assume that God doesn't want them to have some things rather than find out where the problem just might be in their not receiving what He might possibly have for them. In some cases it might require some long fasting and praying (oh, that hurts the flesh, but if a person wants God to do something bad enough, they will be willing). and it might simply take an authoritative declaration of faith. However, the willingness to give up and say, "If God wants me to have it I will have it" is nothing more than the product of Western theology.

Thankfully as I have watched and listened to testimonies about missionaries who took over a year or more to reach the people they needed to reach, I know that Western Theology and it's "If God didn't do it, it wasn't His will" attitude is not the "taking the Kingdom by force" attitude promoted by Jesus.

[victoryword]

Without God we can do nothing, without us God does nothing.

(Obviously a little simplistic I know:))

God Bless

Simon

Simplistic, but pretty much sums up my thoughts on the whole thing. Thanks. Reps to you my friend.

[JimfromOhio]

I want to refer to another thread similar to this one and I replied in that thread with the answer quoted below. I will be back tonight. :)

God takes ALL prayers SERIOUSLY while at the same time, He ANSWERS them SERIOUSLY according to HIS Will. The Spirit is our intercessor, our personal indwelling intercessor interceding according to the will of God. The Father will always hear and always answer the intercessory prayer of the Spirit because the Spirit always prays according to God's will and God always does His will.

Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

When Paul wrote, "for all the saints", God will answers prayers for ALL of the saints according to His will without narrowing down to favorism to each Christian who DOES His will. This is the SAME concept of spiritual gifts, The spiritual gifts are to be submitted as the Lord determines in an unifying way. God will use our spiritual gifts by His Spirit as He wills. Your spiritual gifts are for the SAINTS, not for you.

In Proverbs 16:9 We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.

Romans 8:28-29 "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them."

Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

Do you think that God takes prayer seriously? http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7263366

[JimfromOhio]

Interesting, I'll read it through again and let you know, but my first thought on reading this was the old adage,

Without God we can do nothing, without us God does nothing.

(Obviously a little simplistic I know:))

God Bless

Simon


That's right. Without us, God does nothing however WITH us, He does alot according to His will. We are His vessels and He will do whatever He decides to do according to HIS will, not at "our will". :thumbsup:

[victoryword]

It seems to me that Moses responded in obedience to God, not exercised authority. Jesus said (I repeat), “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself. He does only what he sees the Father doing. Whatever the Father does, the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him everything he is doing” (John 5.19-20).

Ah, the semantics game. Jim, where do you think our "delegated authority" comes from other than our obedience to God? When God issues a command then we have the authority to carry it out. Moses and Aaron had authority over the nile and were able to bring heaps of frogs upon Egypt due to the fact that they obeyed God.

This is demonstrated in the very same chapter from which you quote Jesus obeying the Father:

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man (John 5:26, 27)

Authority is something that is delegated and is used in obedience, or abused, as Moses did in Numbers 20.

And I am not so sure God would not have delivered Israel from Egypt in another way except using Moses. Everything does not hinge on us. We are only allowed to participate with God in His great work. He depends on no one. And I see nothing wrong with submitting to the will of God in everything.

IMHO.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain




A lot hinges on us more than you want to believe Jim. Let me show you some Scripture on this. Ezekiel gives us s sad commentary on how a nation was destroyed because God was unable to find someone to stand in the gap for it:

And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD (Eze. 22:30, 31)

Ezekiel also tells us how our failure to warn people to turn from their wicked ways could make us responsible for their demise. So a lot hinges on us than many of you really want to believe.

[JimfromOhio]

Delegated God's will as in authority? Wow... that much power :confused::o

[mont974x4]

This is a valid point. However Moses still did SOMETHING even if he did not do the right right thing:

And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also (Num. 20:11)
So Moses exercised his authority improperly, noetheless he still got results. NOTHING would have happened had Moses done NOTHING.



Since this was discussed at length in another thread, I will not waste my time with it here.


[size=3]
[size=3]

The problem with many of those who are opposed to so-called WoF teachings is that you simply continue to ignore the Scriptures giving both precepts and examples demonstrating that we have a part to play in seeing the will of God be done. Too many non-wofers excuse their laziness and unwillingness to do what may be necessary under the guise of believing God's "grace" or His "sovereignty."

There are just some things in life that God wills for His children that they will never have because they quit too quickly and too easily. They assume that God doesn't want them to have some things rather than find out where the problem just might be in their not receiving what He might possibly have for them. In some cases it might require some long fasting and praying (oh, that hurts the flesh, but if a person wants God to do something bad enough, they will be willing). and it might simply take an authoritative declaration of faith. However, the willingness to give up and say, "If God wants me to have it I will have it" is nothing more than the product of Western theology.

Thankfully as I have watched and listened to testimonies about missionaries who took over a year or more to reach the people they needed to reach, I know that Western Theology and it's "If God didn't do it, it wasn't His will" attitude is not the "taking the Kingdom by force" attitude promoted by Jesus.


What kind of god would have to wait for a man to act?


I don't care if you posted on Christ asking for the cup to pass from him in another thread. This is a new thread and a new discussion.

but whatever, unsubscribing

[victoryword]

Sorry,I dont see any grace here,all the emphasis is placed on the saint.

Is it about the glory of the Lord,or all about our decisions?



I'm afraid you have not understood the Bible teaching on grace. Grace is not "let me sit back and wait for the Lord to do it all." The Lord expects our participation and our cooperation.

Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: (Heb. 12:28)

Grace enables us to serve Him, cooperate with Him, and not sit back and hope for the best.

And yes, it has much to do with our decisions. If you do not believe that then you do not believe Scripture because Scripture constantly points to the decision of people to determine whether they receive from God or miss out on what He wants to do in their lives (Luke 7:30; Rev. 3:20).

[CryoftheNation]

Victoryword I love your sig by the way! :thumbsup:

God Bless

Simon

[victoryword]

What kind of god would have to wait for a man to act?


I don't care if you posted on Christ asking for the cup to pass from him in another thread. This is a new thread and a new discussion.

but whatever, unsubscribing

Thank you for unsubscribing, but allow me to answer your last post. Even if you do not read it, my answer might benefit others.

For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars (2 Chron. 16:9).

God is actually looking for agents to work through. If it were God's normal modus operandi to work in our lives apart from any consent on our part, then one must ask why He would need to have His eyes running to and fro throughout the earth to find a heart that is perfect toward Him so that he could demonstrate His great strength and might. So yes, God sometimes has to "wait" for a man to do His part before God is able to do His part.

[pinetree]

This teaching is egocentric..

It seeks to bring God down to our level.

Notice how all Gods power,and will,was only able to manifest,if man obeyed..:doh:

Like God took a guess on who he chose,like boy oh boy,thank God all obeyed or nothing God almighty wanted would have ever been done..

Like....,if Moses did not listen,they would still be sitting there making bricks.

Where were we ,when He brought forth the earth?

[LeadWorship]

Good word, victoryword.

It reminds me of my Grandmother. She's smoked since she was 12 - and is 79 now. She started smoking because she "liked the smell". I remember sitting down with her and my parents and they asked her to seek help to quit smoking. Her response, "Well, I belive in God, and if he wanted me to quit, he'd take away the desire." She now has full on emphysema and was supposed to die 6 months ago. She is limited to a 12 foot radius of a world because of her oxygen and inability to move herself around without running out of breath. She no longer smokes because of the oxygen and because the reality of her situation has hit her.

If, according to her comment, it was God's will for her to continue to smoke, it must have also been in his will for her to suffer miserably as she struggles daily just to do the simple tasks. I asked her on the 4th of July when we were all over, "So what do you do from day to day?"

She said, "Well baby darling (what she's always called me), I get up, make some cornmeal and warm milk, sit here for a while, then eat a little for lunch and get supper ready for that night. In between I'm getting my medicine and taking my treatments. Once a month the nurse and doctor come out. Pretty much I just spend all day taking care of myself! Hahaha!"

I am a firm believer in us having a "part to play". What stops God from moving in our lives? We do. What hinders God from breaking us free? We do. Even if we are waiting on God's will and power to move us in a direction, we cannot sit idly by and wait. We must make a plan - we must get out there and step out on our own accord. Plans represent order and structure. If we cannot keep order and structure in our lives what makes us think that God will force us to?

[JimfromOhio]

I'm afraid you have not understood the Bible teaching on grace. Grace is not "let me sit back and wait for the Lord to do it all." The Lord expects our participation and our cooperation.

Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: (Heb. 12:28)

Grace enables us to serve Him, cooperate with Him, and not sit back and hope for the best.

And yes, it has much to do with our decisions. If you do not believe that then you do not believe Scripture because Scripture constantly points to the decision of people to determine whether they receive from God or miss out on what He wants to do in their lives (Luke 7:30; Rev. 3:20).

Grace is God applies to us everything we need such as: to save us, to keep us, to enable us, to deliver us, to sanctify us and more. It is God's grace that just initiates there and sustains all the way, every benefit in life, every benefit in eternity is by God's grace. Faith rests not primarily upon God's promises but rather on God's Character. His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue. (2 Peter 1.3)

Reading Peter saying, "His divine power hath given unto us all things" (v. 3). When we became a believer, we gained instant possession of all things that pertain to life and godliness according to God's grace as well as His will. The source of all things pertaining to life and godliness is God's divine power called GRACE which having God's own overwhelming energy that is concentrated on providing all our needs. God gave us our potential in terms that we didn't earn it because it was undeserved and offered by grace according to His Soveriegn Will.

We are to be careful of how we pray because we do NOT know all of God's will for each of our lives. Some of "us" wants good things from God and surely early Christians didn't get that benefit of good things.

[JimfromOhio]

Noticed how many gold shields are supporting this thread. :)

[LeadWorship]

Noticed how many gold shields are supporting this thread. :)

Well, that's because it's a good word, and a good point to discuss. After all, this is
A subforum where WOF and non-WOF may discuss their different theological ideas.

Be blessed brother!

[probinson]

This teaching is egocentric..
No, it's not. It recognizes that God sees us as valuable, and has chosen to use us to fulfill His will.

It seeks to bring God down to our level.

Not hardly.

Notice how all Gods power,and will,was only able to manifest,if man obeyed..:doh:
Not always the case, but there most certainly are things that will not get done for God if you don't do them.

Why are the eyes of God roaming to and fro looking for someone if He doesn't need us?

God thinks a lot more of His people than you seem to.

[JimfromOhio]

Well, that's because it's a good word, and a good point to discuss. After all, this is


Be blessed brother!
In a way but actually its supporting and non-supporting, just like anti-WOF threads, non-WOF supports while WOF do not support those threads (as you have seen). ;)

[pinetree]

Noticed how many gold shields are supporting this thread. :)
:D:D:D

[LeadWorship]

Oh, and I didn't realize this was a WoF only idea. It's about authority and submission which is not limited to WoF. Watchman Nee wrote a great book on it.

[pinetree]

No, it's not. It recognizes that God sees us as valuable, and has chosen to use us to fulfill His will.

Not hardly.

Not always the case, but there most certainly are things that will not get done for God if you don't do them.

Why are the eyes of God roaming to and fro looking for someone if He doesn't need us?

God thinks a lot more of His people than you seem to.
need or want?;)

If i said to you..I need you to do such and such.
Doesn't that sound like,,hey,I need you,I cant do it?

But if said,I want you to do such and such.

Which statement has power, authority and sovereignty in it?

[LeadWorship]

In a way but actually its supporting and non-supporting, just like anti-WOF threads, non-WOF supports while WOF do not support those threads (as you have seen). ;)


lol well that's true. And it's not always that I don't support them either. It's just that iv'e been in too many threads where my "faith icon" limits people's ability to hear my pov. I don't even notice them to be honest. From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks - icon or not.

[victoryword]

Good word, victoryword.

It reminds me of my Grandmother. She's smoked since she was 12 - and is 79 now. She started smoking because she "liked the smell". I remember sitting down with her and my parents and they asked her to seek help to quit smoking. Her response, "Well, I belive in God, and if he wanted me to quit, he'd take away the desire." She now has full on emphysema and was supposed to die 6 months ago. She is limited to a 12 foot radius of a world because of her oxygen and inability to move herself around without running out of breath. She no longer smokes because of the oxygen and because the reality of her situation has hit her.

If, according to her comment, it was God's will for her to continue to smoke, it must have also been in his will for her to suffer miserably as she struggles daily just to do the simple tasks. I asked her on the 4th of July when we were all over, "So what do you do from day to day?"

She said, "Well baby darling (what she's always called me), I get up, make some cornmeal and warm milk, sit here for a while, then eat a little for lunch and get supper ready for that night. In between I'm getting my medicine and taking my treatments. Once a month the nurse and doctor come out. Pretty much I just spend all day taking care of myself! Hahaha!"

I am a firm believer in us having a "part to play". What stops God from moving in our lives? We do. What hinders God from breaking us free? We do. Even if we are waiting on God's will and power to move us in a direction, we cannot sit idly by and wait. We must make a plan - we must get out there and step out on our own accord. Plans represent order and structure. If we cannot keep order and structure in our lives what makes us think that God will force us to?

Thanks LW, this is a PERFECT example of what I am talking about.

[victoryword]

This teaching is egocentric..

It seeks to bring God down to our level.

Notice how all Gods power,and will,was only able to manifest,if man obeyed..:doh:

Like God took a guess on who he chose,like boy oh boy,thank God all obeyed or nothing God almighty wanted would have ever been done..

Like....,if Moses did not listen,they would still be sitting there making bricks.

Where were we ,when He brought forth the earth?

Daniel said, ".... but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits" (Daniel 11:32).

Jesus said that power would be demonstrated through vessels of faith (Matt. 17:20; Mark 9:23; 11:22-24; John 14:12-14) and Paul wrote that God's mighty power is demonstrated toward usward who believe (Eph. 3:20). It is normal for God to work His miracles through a cooperative vessel. Often if the vessel is not yielded and God is unable to find a yielded vessel, then His perfect will is not done (Eze. 22:30).

[probinson]

I am a firm believer in us having a "part to play". What stops God from moving in our lives? We do. What hinders God from breaking us free? We do. Even if we are waiting on God's will and power to move us in a direction, we cannot sit idly by and wait. We must make a plan - we must get out there and step out on our own accord. Plans represent order and structure. If we cannot keep order and structure in our lives what makes us think that God will force us to?
Excellent!

My pastor always says this;

"You are never out of the will of God when you're preparing to do the will of God."

[Jimbeaux]

Sure God uses us but the kingdom will not rise or fall on us. God will accomplish His will in the world with or without us. Didn’t Jesus says so when He said, “
Then, as He was now drawing near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen, saying: “‘Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the LORD!’ Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”
And some of the Pharisees called to Him from the crowd, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.”
But He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.” (Luke 19.27-40)
~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[victoryword]

Sure God uses us but the kingdom will not rise or fall on us. God will accomplish His will in the world with or without us. Didn’t Jesus says so when He said, “
Then, as He was now drawing near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen, saying: “‘Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the LORD!’ Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”
And some of the Pharisees called to Him from the crowd, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.”
But He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.” (Luke 19.27-40)
~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain




My OP was not so much the KINGDOM itself as it was the fact that God can do little or nothing in our personal lives, and many times in the lives of others, without our cooperation with Him. For example, Moses' prayer for Israel saved them:

Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them (Psalm 106:23).

This is what some (both WoF and Non-WoF) have referred to as "The Authority of the Intercessor." This passage makes it clearer than crystal water that what we do and do not do can effect not only our lives but the lives of many others. If Moses was one of those "if it be thy will" only type pray-ers, these folks would have been destroyed. However, Moses stood before God and was able to persuade god from giving these folks what they deserve.

If many Western Christians were more like Moses, we would not have the problems we have both in our nation and in our individual lives. Unfortunately, too many people are accepting the corruption of our nation as the predestined plan of God rather than praying for God to deal with the forces that have set us on this ungodly course. People have more faith in some "secret decree" of God than in the revealed will of God which is His Word.

Finally, while the ultimate future fulfillment of the Kingdom may not be dependent on the cooperation of God's people, certain aspects of the Kingdom in the here and now is very much dependent on the people of God and the exercise of their God-given authority, especially as intercessors.

[ARBITER01]

When the answers to our prayers do not come to pass, we blame it on God and claim that it was His will (and some of us even become angry with God). However, there are times when we have to stop praying and start saying with an authority based on God's Word (Mat. 17:20; Mark 11:22-24).

Our example to follow is Jesus, not Hagin. Jesus specifically said we can do nothing ourselves, so if you have not received the faith inside to speak something forth into existance, it will not happen. Period. If you are not acting in obediance to GOD's prompting inside your spirit, nothing will happen afterwards.

I'll say it again, our example is Jesus, and we need to allow The Holy Spirit to teach us "correctly" how we are to follow GOD instead of running ahead of HIM on our own.

It's really simple, yet many folks like to add their own spin on things outside of The Lord's example to us.

[victoryword]

Excellent!

My pastor always says this;

"You are never out of the will of God when you're preparing to do the will of God."

Excellent quote by your pastor.

[LeadWorship]

Sure God uses us but the kingdom will not rise or fall on us. God will accomplish His will in the world with or without us. Didn’t Jesus says so when He said, “
Then, as He was now drawing near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen, saying: “‘Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the LORD!’ Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”
And some of the Pharisees called to Him from the crowd, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.”
But He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.” (Luke 19.27-40)


I don't believe so. His disciples were praising Him and rejoicing. If they kept silent, surely the stones would cry out His praises, to me that's a lesson in withholding praise, not accomplishing His will.

[victoryword]

Our example to follow is Jesus, not Hagin. Jesus specifically said we can do nothing ourselves, so if you have not received the faith inside to speak something forth into existance, it will not happen. Period. If you are not acting in obediance to GOD's prompting inside your spirit, nothing will happen afterwards.

I'll say it again, our example is Jesus, and we need to allow The Holy Spirit to teach us "correctly" how we are to follow GOD instead of running ahead of HIM on our own.

It's really simple, yet many folks like to add their own spin on things outside of The Lord's example to us.

Excuse me sir, can you please tell me where I mentioned Hagin in any of my posts? This type of posts begins with the type of idiocy that is not conducive to good debating. Do you notice that in the very post you responded to I quoted Jesus and not Hagin? I do not worship "Hagin" nor any other preacher.

If Jesus is our example to follow then why do you ignore the very person I quote? Why do you ignore Jesus advice when He told us to "do unto others as we would have them do unto us?" Would you want me misrepresenting you? Then why did you just falsely misrepresent me and my motives?

Now if I have not received the faith inside to bring something forth then I have found the following to be applicable: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Rom. 10:17). The Word of God reveals the will of God. God's Word is a revelation of His will and where I know His will, I can have faith to see that will accomplished.

So if you really believe that Jesus is our example to follow, then follow Him and begin by not writing anymore asinine posts that distort and misrepresent your opponent with the intent to inflame. Follow His example of love or join the hypocrites club.

[ARBITER01]

Excuse me sir, can you please tell me where I mentioned Hagin in any of my posts? This type of posts begins with the type of idiocy that is not conducive to good debating. Do you notice that in the very post you responded to I quoted Jesus and not Hagin? I do not worship "Hagin" nor any other preacher.

If Jesus is our example to follow then why do you ignore the very person I quote? Why do you ignore Jesus advice when He told us to "do unto others as we would have them do unto us?" Would you want me misrepresenting you? Then why did you just falsely misrepresent me and my motives?

Now if I have not received the faith inside to bring something forth then I have found the following to be applicable: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Rom. 10:17). The Word of God reveals the will of God. God's Word is a revelation of His will and where I know His will, I can have faith to see that will accomplished.

So if you really believe that Jesus is our example to follow, then follow Him and begin by not writing anymore asinine posts that distort and misrepresent your opponent with the intent to inflame. Follow His example of love or join the hypocrites club.


Your post was full of Hagin thought, so was this one.

The very idea that the written word of GOD reveals the will of GOD to a believer is one of the types of the WOF teachings you and others promote here, which you just did again in this post.

For anyone who has been close to The Lord in any measure, they will know that it is a balanced life of Prayer to the Living Word each day, and a everyday feeding upon the written word. All things lead to Jesus no matter what, so the idea that the written word has all the clues to GOD's will for us down here is quite bogus when Jesus never did anything outside of what The Father told Him and showed Him. That is a son of GOD, and is our example to reach to.

My post here didn't distort or misrepresent, it cut through to what was really speaking through you to us in your posts. If you want to teach something here to us, please stop lacing it with Hagin and allow The Holy Spirit to have pre-eminence in your words. I'll gladly give you credit when it is Jesus speaking.

[LeadWorship]

I don't get that at all.

How long have you studied Hagin, arbiter?

[victoryword]

Your post was full of Hagin thought, so was this one.

My post was full of my own thoughts and none of Hagins. The rest of your post was not worth reading since you continue to make false accusations. Have a nice day.

[victoryword]

I don't get that at all.

How long have you studied Hagin, arbiter?

Probably only misquotes from "discernmanet" sites.

[ARBITER01]

Probably only misquotes from "discernmanet" sites.

Upset a little bit?

Why?

Did the truth strike a nerve?


Anytime someone identifies what you or another are teaching here as WOF thought and Hagin speak, you and others get upset and mad, why?

Like I said, I'll gladly give you credit when Jesus starts speaking through you on subjects like this instead of Hagin. I'm only interested in what He has to say and teach, not anyone else, as anyone of us should be.

[Jimbeaux]

My OP was not so much the KINGDOM itself as it was the fact that God can do little or nothing in our personal lives, and many times in the lives of others, without our cooperation with Him. For example, Moses' prayer for Israel saved them:
Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them (Psalm 106:23).
This is what some (both WoF and Non-WoF) have referred to as "The Authority of the Intercessor." This passage makes it clearer than crystal water that what we do and do not do can effect not only our lives but the lives of many others. If Moses was one of those "if it be thy will" only type pray-ers, these folks would have been destroyed. However, Moses stood before God and was able to persuade god from giving these folks what they deserve.

If many Western Christians were more like Moses, we would not have the problems we have both in our nation and in our individual lives. Unfortunately, too many people are accepting the corruption of our nation as the predestined plan of God rather than praying for God to deal with the forces that have set us on this ungodly course. People have more faith in some "secret decree" of God than in the revealed will of God which is His Word.

Finally, while the ultimate future fulfillment of the Kingdom may not be dependent on the cooperation of God's people, certain aspects of the Kingdom in the here and now is very much dependent on the people of God and the exercise of their God-given authority, especially as intercessors.

Good point, VW.

One thing I keep noticing, though, in these threads is a tendency to point back to bygone days as in your statement …

If many Western Christians were more like Moses, we would not have the problems we have both in our nation and in our individual lives.


Moses or Jack Coe or Smith Wigglesworth or Kathryn Kuhlman or William Branham anybody but somebody alive today. Have you noticed that? Why do you think we always think it was once better than it is today?

I am sure people in those generations pointed back to previous generations saying, “If only now what they had then …” Maybe that’s why we are so powerless ... we live in folklore and not present reality.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[ARBITER01]

The truth never strikes a nerve. It sets me free John 8:32. When you start speaking the truth then let me know.




You are spiritually bankrupt due to your inability to engage my posts based on Scripture. Since you lack any Biblical foundation the best weapon in your arsenal is the power of insult. It was totally unnecessary to bring up the name of any man. My posts were based on my thoughts from God's Word. I was hoping to engage in debates of people who saw it from a different perspective, but could prove it from God's Word.

Obviously you are entrenched in bitterness toward Hagin and others but due to you being destitute of Scriptural knowledge, you are unable to engage in a debate centered on Scripture so your next best effort consists of regurgitating the usual heresy hunting innuendo.

The last word is yours. Your posts smell of dung fields that have sat too long in the Sahara sun so I would prefer not to read them anymore.

But I hope this last response did not sound too much like Hagin :D


I'm not insulting you at all (like you have been for some reason), I'm just calling it out as it is. I see nothing more than Hagin speak being promoted in your posts that you call teachings.

We have no scriptural standard that says we find GOD's will for us through HIS written word, nothing, nor was it the example of obedience that Jesus gave us to follow.

If you have a line of scripture that you wish to post that says we shall find the will of GOD for our lives in the written word instead of from HIM directly by revelation of The Holy Spirit, please post it and we'll discuss it, until then you are wrong.

[Jimbeaux]

*****
If Moses was one of those "if it be thy will" only type pray-ers, these folks would have been destroyed. However, Moses stood before God and was able to persuade god from giving these folks what they deserve.
*****

Excuse me, but I am wondering why are you are so opposed to following Jesus’ clear instruction to pray, “Thy will be done” when we pray and following His example when He prayed, “Not my will but Yours be done”? Am I in unbelief when I do that? Does submitting to God’s will make me ineffectual as a Christian? :scratch:

This is one of those WOF faith-doctrines that I have a problem with?

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[probinson]

Excuse me, but I am wondering why are you are so opposed to following Jesus’ clear instruction to pray, “Thy will be done” when we pray and following His example when He prayed, “Not my will but Yours be done”? Am I in unbelief when I do that? Does submitting to God’s will make me ineffectual as a Christian? :scratch:

This is one of those WOF faith-doctrines that I have a problem with?

Jesus' prayer of "Thy will be done" was not indicative of Jesus not knowing the will of God and saying "que sera sera".

When Jesus prayed "Thy will be done", He knew what the will of the Father was, and was simply submitting His will to that of the Father.

[Tamara224]

Jesus' prayer of "Thy will be done" was not indicative of Jesus not knowing the will of God and saying "que sera sera".

When Jesus prayed "Thy will be done", He knew what the will of the Father was, and was simply submitting His will to that of the Father.


If that is the case (and I'm not saying it's not) then why do you seem to presume that when Christians follow his example we are saying "que sera sera"?

[probinson]

If that is the case (and I'm not saying it's not) then why do you seem to presume that when Christians follow his example we are saying "que sera sera"?
Well, all you have to do is look at how most people talk when they say, "If it be Thy will/Thy will be done".

"It might not be God's will".

Jesus never said anything that remotely resembled that. Ever.

[Tamara224]

This is one of those WOF faith-doctrines that I have a problem with?




It seems to me whenever I hear or read these kinds of WoFish doctrines that there is an overemphasis on a believer's authority and a desire for control.

And I am reminded of this:

Matthew 20:20-28
20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to Jesus with her sons, bowing down and making a request of Him.

21And He said to her, "What do you wish?" She said to Him, "Command that in Your kingdom these two sons of mine may sit one on Your right and one on Your left."
22But Jesus answered, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?" They said to Him, "We are able."
23 He said to them, "My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on My left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father."
24 And hearing this, the ten became indignant with the two brothers.
25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.
26 "It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,
27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

It is contrary to the teaching of Jesus for his disciples to be constantly hankering after authority. And yet that seems to me to be exactly what a lot of the WoF doctrine promotes. (And a lot of non-WoF doctrines, too, btw).

[Tamara224]

Well, all you have to do is look at how most people talk when they say, "If it be Thy will/Thy will be done".

"It might not be God's will".

Jesus never said anything that remotely resembled that. Ever.


Yes and we're all exactly like Jesus, aren't we? We all know God's exact will for every situation of our lives 100% of the time.

(That was sarcasm).

What about this:

James 4:13-15

13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit."
14Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.
15Instead, you ought to say, " If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that." 16But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.
Some people need to get real. The truth is that none of us knows God's will perfectly all the time for every situation of our lives. And praying "if it be God's will" is a simple statement of trust in God.

It's not wrong to admit that we don't know God's will all the time. In fact, it's pure arrogance (according to Scripture) to presume that we do or that we can. Scripture calls it evil.

[JimfromOhio]

Daniel said, ".... but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits" (Daniel 11:32).

Jesus said that power would be demonstrated through vessels of faith (Matt. 17:20; Mark 9:23; 11:22-24; John 14:12-14) and Paul wrote that God's mighty power is demonstrated toward usward who believe (Eph. 3:20). It is normal for God to work His miracles through a cooperative vessel. Often if the vessel is not yielded and God is unable to find a yielded vessel, then His perfect will is not done (Eze. 22:30).
Daniel is one of my favorites.:thumbsup: I want to mention this verse:
Daniel 4:35
All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as He pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back His hand
or say to Him: "What have you done?"

Which goes with this verse: Ephesians 1:11, "He works all things according to the purpose of His own will."

There are two wills, set over against each other, dominated by two wills, the will of man (me) and the will of God, respectively. Guess whose will is stronger at will?

[probinson]

Yes and we're all exactly like Jesus, aren't we? We all know God's exact will for every situation of our lives 100% of the time.

(That was sarcasm).
Thanks for the heads up about the sarcasm... http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h128/petesarah/Smilies/rolleyes.gif

We're not all exactly like Jesus, no one said we are, and your statement is a simple deflection of the real issue we're discussing, and that is following Jesus' example.

The claim is that you're "following Jesus' example" by praying "Thy will be done", but that's not the case at all. Jesus knew God's will, so when He prayed "Thy will be done" it wasn't a "prayer of trust". It was a prayer of submission to the known will of God for Him.

What about this:

James 4:13-15

13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit."
14Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.
15Instead, you ought to say, " If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that." 16But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.
Some people need to get real. The truth is that none of us knows God's will perfectly all the time for every situation of our lives. And praying "if it be God's will" is a simple statement of trust in God.

It's not wrong to admit that we don't know God's will all the time. In fact, it's pure arrogance (according to Scripture) to presume that we do or that we can. Scripture calls it evil.
Who is saying that they know God's will 100% of the time for every situation of their lives? I must've missed that post...

Holy strawman, Batman!

What I said was WHEN JESUS prayed "Thy will be done", He already knew the will of God. It was not a mystery to Him. So to say you're praying "Thy will be done" and "following Jesus' example", you'd also have to already know the will of God concerning whatever it was you were praying for. Otherwise, you're selectively following Jesus' example. :cool:

[JimfromOhio]

Excellent!

My pastor always says this;

"You are never out of the will of God when you're preparing to do the will of God."

Depends on our flesh's perspectives on God's will. 1 Peter 4:2 As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.

In James 4:15 Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that."

Psalms 143:10 Teach me to do your will,
for you are my God;
may your good Spirit
lead me on level ground.

[Tamara224]

Thanks for the heads up about the sarcasm... http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h128/petesarah/Smilies/rolleyes.gif

We're not all exactly like Jesus, no one said we are, and your statement is a simple deflection of the real issue we're discussing, and that is following Jesus' example.

The claim is that you're "following Jesus' example" by praying "Thy will be done", but that's not the case at all. Jesus knew God's will, so when He prayed "Thy will be done" it wasn't a "prayer of trust". It was a prayer of submission to the known will of God for Him.

Who is saying that they know God's will 100% of the time for every situation of their lives? I must've missed that post...

Holy strawman, Batman!

What I said was WHEN JESUS prayed "Thy will be done", He already knew the will of God. It was not a mystery to Him. So to say you're praying "Thy will be done" and "following Jesus' example", you'd also have to already know the will of God concerning whatever it was you were praying for. Otherwise, you're selectively following Jesus' example. :cool:


Talk about deflecting.

The topic of this thread is "Exercising Authority vs. "if it be thy will" Praying."

Another thread recently posted by VW was talking about whether such an "if it be thy will prayer" is "fatalism".

You act as though anytime anyone prays "if it be thy will" they are saying "que sera sera" (i.e. fatalism). You then suggested that the fact that we might not know what God's will is for our means that it's not possible for follow Jesus example there. And that the "might" in the equation makes it a que sera sera type of prayer. That's not true and it misses the point of His example. IMO.

Jesus example is one of submission to God's will despite what we ourselves may want in a given circumstance, I agree with you there. That is the "not my will but yours be done prayer".

It is in many ways very similar to the prayers believers pray. Whether we actually know the will of God for that situation (as Jesus did) or not. The point is that by praying "if it be thy will" or "thy will not mine be done" - in both cases it is a mark of submission to the will of God and recognition that His way is best THUS a statement of trust in Him. We submit because we trust.

When I pray for something, for example a job, I may pray "Lord, I really want a job with such-and-such a firm, but let your will be done, not mine." I don't actually know if God wants me to work there or not. That doesn't mean that I'm not emulating Jesus when I pray that.

Either way, it's a submission of my will to His.

So, IMO, you're straining out gnats with your claim that we're not following Christ's example unless we happen to know God's will in a certain circumstance. The example is submitting to God's will. Whether that exact will is known or not is irrelevant.

[JimfromOhio]

Excuse me, but I am wondering why are you are so opposed to following Jesus’ clear instruction to pray, “Thy will be done” when we pray and following His example when He prayed, “Not my will but Yours be done”? Am I in unbelief when I do that? Does submitting to God’s will make me ineffectual as a Christian? :scratch:

This is one of those WOF faith-doctrines that I have a problem with?

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain




I agree. When someone is trying to get they want, they interpret as God's will in their imagination which breaks one of God's commandments in Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." Faith is at the foundation of all Christian living, and because faith has to do with the character of God, not what we can GET from Him which is a form of idoltary.

Proverbs 12:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=12&verse=11&version=31&context=verse)
He who works his land will have abundant food, but he who chases fantasies lacks judgment.

[Jimbeaux]

Jesus' prayer of "Thy will be done" was not indicative of Jesus not knowing the will of God and saying "que sera sera".

When Jesus prayed "Thy will be done", He knew what the will of the Father was, and was simply submitting His will to that of the Father.

If that is so, then why did He pray, “Father, if it is Your will (gasp! shudder!) take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done” (Luke 22.42 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2022.42%20;&version=50;)). Apparently, the Lord needed some better teaching in WOF doctrine. Can you imagine someone praying in such unbelief as to say “if it is Your will” when they were asking something from God? It's downright heresy! Jesus, who (as you say) knew the will of God, must have had a lapse of memory to pray like that.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but it seemed fitting at this point.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[probinson]

You act as though anytime anyone prays "if it be thy will" they are saying "que sera sera" (i.e. fatalism). You then suggested that the fact that we might not know what God's will is for our means that it's not possible for follow Jesus example there. And that the "might" in the equation makes it a que sera sera type of prayer. That's not true and it misses the point of His example. IMO.
I have to ask then, why is it irrelevant that Jesus knew God's will? Because you say so? How have you made the determination that Jesus knowing God's will when He said "Thy will be done" is irrelevant?

Jesus example is one of submission to God's will despite what we ourselves may want in a given circumstance, I agree with you there. That is the "not my will but yours be done prayer".

It is in many ways very similar to the prayers believers pray. Whether we actually know the will of God for that situation (as Jesus did) or not. The point is that by praying "if it be thy will" or "thy will not mine be done" - in both cases it is a mark of submission to the will of God and recognition that His way is best THUS a statement of trust in Him. We submit because we trust.
It could be. It could also be a statement of distrust.

For example, if I tell my son, "We're going to the park tonight", he doesn't say, "We might go to the park tonight, if my daddy wants to". That would be a statement of distrust, that he doesn't believe what I told him. But because he knows me and trusts me, he emphatically says, "My daddy's taking me to the park tonight!"

Where we part company is that you don't believe that God has promised the same things that I believe He has promised.

When I pray for something, for example a job, I may pray "Lord, I really want a job with such-and-such a firm, but let your will be done, not mine." I don't actually know if God wants me to work there or not. That doesn't mean that I'm not emulating Jesus when I pray that.
When I needed a job, I didn't pray for a specific job, I did much what you just described.

In doing so, I was not "emulating Jesus" when He prayed "Thy will be done", because I did not know God's will for that situation.

We should always seek to "emulate Jesus" as you say, but to say we're "following Jesus' example" in a specific instance, we can't just pick and choose the parts His example that we find relevant.

Either way, it's a submission of my will to His.

So, IMO, you're straining out gnats with your claim that we're not following Christ's example unless we happen to know God's will in a certain circumstance. The example is submitting to God's will. Whether that exact will is known or not is irrelevant.
The fact of the matter is, when Jesus prayed, "Thy will be done", God's will was known to Him. As far as I can tell from your posts, the only reason that you think that is "irrelevant" is because it's damaging to your argument.

:cool:

[probinson]

If that is so, then why did He pray, “Father, if it is Your will (gasp! shudder!) take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done” (Luke 22.42 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2022.42%20;&version=50;)). Apparently, the Lord needed some better teaching in WOF doctrine. Can you imagine someone praying in such unbelief as to say “if it is Your will” when they were asking something from God? It's downright heresy! Jesus, who (as you say) knew the will of God, must have had a lapse of memory to pray like that.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but it seemed fitting at this point.


So then, you believe that Jesus did not know the will of God?

:confused:

[Jimbeaux]

So then, you believe that Jesus did not know the will of God?

:confused:

Looks like it. If I am wrong, maybe you can explain to us why Jesus, if He did not think there could be another way, would pray “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

This should be interesting.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[probinson]

Looks like it. If I am wrong, maybe you can explain to us why Jesus, if He did not think there could be another way, would pray “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

This should be interesting.


Hyperbole.

:P

:D

[JimfromOhio]

Looks like it. If I am wrong, maybe you can explain to us why Jesus, if He did not think there could be another way, would pray “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

This should be interesting.

~Jim


If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain


That's what fustrating because they are seeing that God's will for "temporal flesh's" benefits, not His. Faith has turned to fantasy with a message of health, wealth, and comfort. This is between God's will and Adam's will. Jeremiah 17:9--The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked." They say, "God answers prayer in order to give us what we want. He has to--He made a promise." Two-way relationship with God requires our submission, obedience and love to Him. Humility is putting God first in our prayers while pride is putting God last in our prayers.

God wants us to understand His will far more than we want to understand it. He always makes His will clear to those who seek it with an obedient heart. God answers prayer for His sake, not ours. We have to remember that the Spirit of God prays in the life of each believers as Romans 8:26 says, "...we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit Himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

Here are some of God's will:
Saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9)
Spirit-filled (Ephesians 5:17-18)
Sanctified (1 Thessalonians 4:3-7)
Submissive (1 Peter 2:13-15)
Suffering ( Philippians 1:29; 2 Timothy 3:12)

We all understand that God sovereignly works out His plan through our desires (Psalm 37:4; Philippians 2:13). But, that's ONLY according to HIS WILL as He has plans for each of us in this world. He routinely works through our decisions to accomplish what He purposes. By asking in the will of God I think you are acknowledging that whatever God would want to do would be best. Now in a very practical sense there may be sometimes when God gives you what you ask, even though it isn't the best. God will use and have used our ignorance to accomplish His will.

[probinson]

Let me see if I can explain this using, (gasp!) our earthly fathers.

Think back to when you were 16, and you asked your dad on Monday if you could have the car on Friday night. Your dad says to you, "Yes, you can have the car on Friday night."

So you call up all your buddies, and you prepare for a Friday night of fun in daddy-o's car. Why? Because you trust your daddy. You don't go around saying, "If my dad lets me have the car, we can go out on Friday." That is not a statement of trust. It is a statement of DISTRUST, in that you don't really believe, or aren't fully convinced, that your dad really meant what he said when he said you can take the car.

In this instance, it would be distrust of your father's statement that would cause you to tell your buddies that you could have the car, IF your dad lets you have it.

OTOH, if your father never told you that you could have the car, you would be correct in saying "IF he lets me have the car".

This is where the problem lies. Because some people don't believe that God has provided healing for all (for example), they believe it is a statement of trust to pray "If it be Thy will", whereas the people who believe and are convinced that God has said healing is available for all see it as a statement of DISTRUST to say "If it be Thy will" in those instances.

This debate will likely never end this side of heaven, but at least by thinking of it this way, even if you disagree, you can hopefully see why in instances where we believe that God has already told us His will, that we see it as a statement of DISTRUST in Him to say "If it be Thy will."

[pinetree]

Daniel said, ".... but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits" (Daniel 11:32).

Jesus said that power would be demonstrated through vessels of faith (Matt. 17:20; Mark 9:23; 11:22-24; John 14:12-14) and Paul wrote that God's mighty power is demonstrated toward usward who believe (Eph. 3:20). It is normal for God to work His miracles through a cooperative vessel. Often if the vessel is not yielded and God is unable to find a yielded vessel, then His perfect will is not done (Eze. 22:30).

ahhhh yes,but what is at work in us lowly vessels?
Seems like it is God at work,since grace comes from his throne..

So do I look at me me me me,or Him?

1 Corinthians 3:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=3&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds.

Paul started churches by grace.(Gods power)


Acts 4:33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=4&verse=33&version=31&context=verse)
With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all.
Look here,grace gave them boldness ( God's power)

Acts 6:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=6&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people
miracles by grace ( God's power)

Acts 14:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=14&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders
more miracles! (Gods power)

1 Corinthians 15:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
look here,Paul realized it was grace (God's power)

Acts 20:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=20&verse=32&version=31&context=verse)
"Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Even his word is grace.If faith comes by hearing the word,faith comes by grace!

[JimfromOhio]

Let me see if I can explain this using, (gasp!) our earthly fathers.

Think back to when you were 16, and you asked your dad on Monday if you could have the car on Friday night. Your dad says to you, "Yes, you can have the car on Friday night."

So you call up all your buddies, and you prepare for a Friday night of fun in daddy-o's car. Why? Because you trust your daddy. You don't go around saying, "If my dad lets me have the car, we can go out on Friday." That is not a statement of trust. It is a statement of DISTRUST, in that you don't really believe, or aren't fully convinced, that your dad really meant what he said when he said you can take the car.

In this instance, it would be distrust of your father's statement that would cause you to tell your buddies that you could have the car, IF your dad lets you have it.

OTOH, if your father never told you that you could have the car, you would be correct in saying "IF he lets me have the car".

This is where the problem lies. Because some people don't believe that God has provided healing for all (for example), they believe it is a statement of trust to pray "If it be Thy will", whereas the people who believe and are convinced that God has said healing is available for all see it as a statement of DISTRUST to say "If it be Thy will" in those instances.

This debate will likely never end this side of heaven, but at least by thinking of it this way, even if you disagree, you can hopefully see why in instances where we believe that God has already told us His will, that we see it as a statement of DISTRUST in Him to say "If it be Thy will."
The "mythical" good Christian tries to act like a mature believer but is really a child at heart because his/her life revolves around "what is good for me." When that happens, a Christian fails to accept responsibility of Christ's Commandments. (gasp!!!!)

[probinson]

The "mythical" good Christian tries to act like a mature believer but is really a child at heart because his/her life revolves around "what is good for me." When that happens, a Christian fails to accept responsibility of Christ's Commandments. (gasp!!!!)
^_^

You never cease to amaze me Jim. You have an uncanny ability to make seemingly random statements on cue.

Think you could make that brush any broader? :D

[PETE_]

Let me see if I can explain this using, (gasp!) our earthly fathers.

Think back to when you were 16, and you asked your dad on Monday if you could have the car on Friday night. Your dad says to you, "Yes, you can have the car on Friday night."

So you call up all your buddies, and you prepare for a Friday night of fun in daddy-o's car. Why? Because you trust your daddy. You don't go around saying, "If my dad lets me have the car, we can go out on Friday." That is not a statement of trust. It is a statement of DISTRUST, in that you don't really believe, or aren't fully convinced, that your dad really meant what he said when he said you can take the car.

In this instance, it would be distrust of your father's statement that would cause you to tell your buddies that you could have the car, IF your dad lets you have it.

OTOH, if your father never told you that you could have the car, you would be correct in saying "IF he lets me have the car".

This is where the problem lies. Because some people don't believe that God has provided healing for all (for example), they believe it is a statement of trust to pray "If it be Thy will", whereas the people who believe and are convinced that God has said healing is available for all see it as a statement of DISTRUST to say "If it be Thy will" in those instances.

This debate will likely never end this side of heaven, but at least by thinking of it this way, even if you disagree, you can hopefully see why in instances where we believe that God has already told us His will, that we see it as a statement of DISTRUST in Him to say "If it be Thy will."I would say that is a fair analogy and our Father has promised us when as well.

[JimfromOhio]

^_^

You never cease to amaze me Jim. You have an uncanny ability to make seemingly random statements on cue.

Think you could make that brush any broader? :D

Don't know about uncanny but the responses just happens. :P

[pinetree]

I'm afraid you have not understood the Bible teaching on grace. Grace is not "let me sit back and wait for the Lord to do it all." The Lord expects our participation and our cooperation.

Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: (Heb. 12:28)

Grace enables us to serve Him, cooperate with Him, and not sit back and hope for the best.

And yes, it has much to do with our decisions. If you do not believe that then you do not believe Scripture because Scripture constantly points to the decision of people to determine whether they receive from God or miss out on what He wants to do in their lives (Luke 7:30; Rev. 3:20).

That is your own misconception of grace,I never said that grace means we sit back,actually grace emboldens us.:clap:

Grace is,the very power of God.I always thought grace was our new covenant standing.
Must be pretty important..look here..


Luke 2:40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=2&verse=40&version=31&context=verse)
And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.

wisdom comes by grace!

John 1:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another

we get blessings by grace!

Acts 4:33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=4&verse=33&version=31&context=verse)
With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all.

power by grace too!

Acts 6:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=6&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
[ Stephen Seized ] Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people.

miracles come by grace!

Acts 15:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=15&verse=11&version=31&context=verse)
No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

we are saved through it.


Romans 3:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=24&version=31&context=verse)
and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

justified through it.

Romans 5:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=5&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.


we stand in it!

Romans 6:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=6&verse=14&version=31&context=verse)
For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

wow,look here,victory over sin too!


Romans 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=4&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

gee look,even FAITH comes by grace..that should be your favorite verse!;)



Romans 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.

gifts even seem to come from grace!

[JimfromOhio]

That is your own misconception of grace,I never said that grace means we sit back,actually grace emboldens us.:clap:

Grace is,the very power of God.I always thought grace was our new covenant standing.
Must be pretty important..look here..


Luke 2:40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=2&verse=40&version=31&context=verse)
And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.

wisdom comes by grace!

John 1:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another

we get blessings by grace!

Acts 4:33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=4&verse=33&version=31&context=verse)
With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all.

power by grace too!

Acts 6:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=6&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
[ Stephen Seized ] Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people.

miracles come by grace!

Acts 15:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=15&verse=11&version=31&context=verse)
No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

we are saved through it.


Romans 3:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=24&version=31&context=verse)
and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

justified through it.

Romans 5:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=5&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.


we stand in it!

Romans 6:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=6&verse=14&version=31&context=verse)
For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

wow,look here,victory over sin too!


Romans 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=4&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

gee look,even FAITH comes by grace..that should be your favorite verse!;)



Romans 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.

gifts even seem to come from grace!













Just watch, Victoryword will find ways to make his doctrines match up with those verses. ;)

[pinetree]

Just watch, Victoryword will find ways to make his doctrines match up with those verses. ;)
yup,well it is pretty hard to separate grace from faith..I think there are about 155 grace verses,.

If only wof would minister grace by faith instead of leagalism,it would solve the whole issue.

[LeadWorship]

Fight the good fight. Be stregthened and encouraged. May God look down upon this thread and smile at the hearts and intents of all involved, knowing it is all said and done out of love, and in the highest regards.

Selah.

[pinetree]

ya know victoryword...I have an idea:idea:

Thought I might help you out a bit here..you can show us all!!;)

You can excercise authority...:thumbsup:

Many feel that the wof,puts a yoke of legalism on the believers by the simple fact that they keep presenting the healing verses (and prosperity) in scripture in an all for all,all for now type of way,across the board in a sweeping style.:o

When really,we can only have faith through grace,I cant manufacture a supernatural substance,can you?..


Seems like we cant really separate grace from faith..:)

Romans 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=4&verse=16&version=49&context=verse)
For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Also we see in scripture that even faith is alloted by God in proportions,meaning one can only have the amount given by God.. It is scriptural.

Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=49&context=verse)
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

also..

Romans 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=6&version=49&context=verse)
Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;



Since Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith,He is in control of my measure,I can only have what he gives me.:)

Hebrews 12:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=12&verse=2&version=49&context=verse)
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God
John 1:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&verse=17&version=49&context=verse)
For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.



Apparently,since you seem to think faith is a formula,denying these verses.Denying the fact that the sick saint only has the proportion Jesus gives him,from the throne of grace.

Then please align yourself with this verse from the great commision,and go into the funeral homes tomorrow,and be a doer of the word!:thumbsup:


Matthew 10:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give


After all,you have to lead by example,you cant tell a sick Christian..
HAVE MORE FAITH! Unless of course you can show the way! What is good for the sick,is good for the strong.;)

I mean if we are going to quote,lets quote.:preach:

thank you,brother pinetree.

[CryoftheNation]

Guys,

Here's my two penneth worth (If its worth that much! :D)

God calls us to submit ourselves to Him and His will everyday. There are certain things he has made clear to us and His word tells us that through Christ we have authority over them. Things like the power to heal, cast out demons, raise the dead, etc. There are other areas where Gods word is not so clear - where I will work, how much will I earn, do I take up this ministry or that one, who do I talk to about God today, etc.

When we submit ourselves completely to His will, we want what He wants, that is when God grants the desires of our hearts. I don't believe that He wants us all materially rich by just giving us money, we have to work for it! (Shock Horror) but I do believe His word tells us that He wants us to prosper both spiritually and physically. That doesn't mean we can just sit back and expect everything to be given to us. We have to follow Him, stay in His will, work hard and He will grant the desires of our hearts.

If we don't know Gods will in a certain area we have to choose one of the following :-


sit and wait going "if God wills it it will be done but I don't know Gods will so I don't have to do anything"
Earnestly seek Gods will through prayer, study and fasting
Trust that you know Gods general will, step out in faith that you have acted correctly.

Now personally I don't go much for number one! Its a cop out. What we should be doing is seeking Gods will at ALL times. Therefore we should be doing number two anyway. So that leaves us the choice of number 3.

I try to live in Gods will, sometimes that requires an act of faith on my part, so I step out, trusting that God will honour that faith, if not He will let me know.

Let me give you an example. A friend of mine came to me with a dilema. She really wanted to go to Romania on a weeks mission but didn't know whether it was Gods will for her or not. She wanted some advice. I told her that since we know Gods general will "go and preach the gospel to all men" she could quite legitimately step out in faith and go as I believed God would honour that. I would much rather do something I believed was right than nothing. She could sit around for weeks waiting on God or she could Go. I said that I believed that God would honour her actions because they were done in the right spirit with the right motives. She went. God blessed her and the people there.

If we had sat around going "If its your will" "let me know" then she would not have gone. Sometimes we know Gods general will so we step out. We are still within His will but we don't know the specific will for this point.

Its the same with healing. I will pray for everyone who asks me. I will pray with faith that they will be healed. Gods word tells me that He wants to heal us. Therefore I am in Gods will when I do that. Does that mean everyone gets healed? I wish. But it was still within Gods will to do it. He alone knows why they weren't healed.

I do believe there is power in words. I'm not "name it and claim it" all the way, but I do believe in speaking positive things into your life. What we say translates into our minds, it then moves to our hearts and affects what we believe. I do however, believe that if God has given you a vision of something to come, then speak it out. Claim that! For example he has given me a vision of where he wants me to go in youth work, I have it written out. I am planning each step, I know how much it will cost, Every detail. I can see it in my minds eye, I know that I know that I know it will happen. When? That is in Gods time, He hasn't revealed that to me yet, but I act in authority and faith in that I speak it out and claim that word for Gods glory.

The main point of this rather long post (I seem to get very preachy these days!:preach:) is that as long as we are surrendering ourselves daily to God we are within his general will. We can then take authority over some things. We then move into His specific (perfect, pleasing) will with prayer, fasting and stepping out in faith.

I guess I'm a bit more of a wofer than I thought!:D

God Bless

Simon

[Jimbeaux]

Let me see if I can explain this using, (gasp!) our earthly fathers.

Think back to when you were 16, and you asked your dad on Monday if you could have the car on Friday night. Your dad says to you, "Yes, you can have the car on Friday night."

So you call up all your buddies, and you prepare for a Friday night of fun in daddy-o's car. Why? Because you trust your daddy. You don't go around saying, "If my dad lets me have the car, we can go out on Friday." That is not a statement of trust. It is a statement of DISTRUST, in that you don't really believe, or aren't fully convinced, that your dad really meant what he said when he said you can take the car.

In this instance, it would be distrust of your father's statement that would cause you to tell your buddies that you could have the car, IF your dad lets you have it.

OTOH, if your father never told you that you could have the car, you would be correct in saying "IF he lets me have the car".

This is where the problem lies. Because some people don't believe that God has provided healing for all (for example), they believe it is a statement of trust to pray "If it be Thy will", whereas the people who believe and are convinced that God has said healing is available for all see it as a statement of DISTRUST to say "If it be Thy will" in those instances.

This debate will likely never end this side of heaven, but at least by thinking of it this way, even if you disagree, you can hopefully see why in instances where we believe that God has already told us His will, that we see it as a statement of DISTRUST in Him to say "If it be Thy will."

That’s good, Pete, but what about my question …
If I am wrong, maybe you can explain to us why Jesus, if He did not think there could be another way, would pray “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”
As for comparing God to earthly fathers—You should know my dad! My Dad’s first response to everything was a noncommittal silence (kind of like my Heavenly Father) or, even a NO, sometimes. If I told my buddies I could get the car on Friday before I got a clear answer from my Dad, I would have been presumptuous, not acting in faith.

Now, what about my question?

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[ARBITER01]

This may be harsh, but it is the truth,..


Romans 8:14 (NKJV) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.


Any Christian who cannot learn to follow the leading of The Holy Spirit in things and move on received faith inside, will never operate in the power gifts and see miraculous things happen through them from GOD. They will remain a servant.

A son of GOD operates differently than a servant does.

[victoryword]

Excuse me, but I am wondering why are you are so opposed to following Jesus’ clear instruction to pray, “Thy will be done” when we pray and following His example when He prayed, “Not my will but Yours be done”? Am I in unbelief when I do that? Does submitting to God’s will make me ineffectual as a Christian? :scratch:

This is one of those WOF faith-doctrines that I have a problem with?

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain




Jim

I am not opposed to following Jesus example if applied correctly. Unfortunately too many do not. Furthermore, people seem to believe that the Gethsemane prayer is the only example of Jesus praying in the Bible. It is almost as if there are no other instructions in the Bible on prayer by Jesus or any of the other Holy Ghost inspired contributors to Scripture.

We have written ad infintum in other threads about how we understand the Gethsemane prayer and how it is to be applied. I even have two chapters on it in a book that I have written ("The Goodness of God" which can be purchased at lulu.com. An older unedited version of it can be found free on my web page). In my book I talk about when we should pray "if it be thy will" and when we should not pray such a prayer.

Therefore it is incorrect to say that I or any other person who advocates similar Biblical principles ignore or disregard our Lord's prayer in Gethsemane. The difference between ourselves and others is that we do not make this the Gethsemen prayer the all comprehensive rule for all praying while others, due to a strict adherence to a doctrine of unilateral sovereignty, cannot seem to understand that God has given man a certain amount of "sovereignty" within his own sphere, a sovereignty defined and limited by the parameters of God's Word.

[Jimbeaux]

Jim

I am not opposed to following Jesus example if applied correctly. Unfortunately too many do not. Furthermore, people seem to believe that the Gethsemane prayer is the only example of Jesus praying in the Bible. It is almost as if there are no other instructions in the Bible on prayer by Jesus or any of the other Holy Ghost inspired contributors to Scripture.

We have written ad infintum in other threads about how we understand the Gethsemane prayer and how it is to be applied. I even have two chapters on it in a book that I have written ("The Goodness of God" which can be purchased at lulu.com. An older unedited version of it can be found free on my web page). In my book I talk about when we should pray "if it be thy will" and when we should not pray such a prayer.

Therefore it is incorrect to say that I or any other person who advocates similar Biblical principles ignore or disregard our Lord's prayer in Gethsemane. The difference between ourselves and others is that we do not make this the Gethsemen prayer the all comprehensive rule for all praying while others, due to a strict adherence to a doctrine of unilateral sovereignty, cannot seem to understand that God has given man a certain amount of "sovereignty" within his own sphere, a sovereignty defined and limited by the parameters of God's Word.

So, do you suggest we ignore the Gethsemane prayer? Or do we get to pick-and-choose which prayers of Jesus will serve as our example?

I will probably not be buying your book, VW (sorry!), so, even though you have posted your beliefs about the Gethsemane prayer “ad infinitum” in this forum, would you mind doing it again. I must have missed those posts and some of us are new here.

~Jim


If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[JimfromOhio]

Jim

I am not opposed to following Jesus example if applied correctly. Unfortunately too many do not. Furthermore, people seem to believe that the Gethsemane prayer is the only example of Jesus