Projection

[probinson]

So, I've been lurking in the shadows of the WOF debates for a few days (somewhat), reading posts, and I've noticed something (from a WoF perspective. I'm sure the non-WoF could make the same observations...)

I'm using "WoF" topics as the example, since there are eleventy-billion threads in this debate section on these topics, but it can happen with anything.

People who say they have been "burned" by WoF tend to take a much more vehement stance against it. (Duh.)

I believe that's what you call "projection". IOW, when you see the "WoF" doctrines, or anything that remotely resembles it, it causes you to revolt. You don't actually hear what is said, and you continue to project your bad experience into everything that everyone says.

So for example, someone carrying the WOF icon says something like "God wants you to be prosperous", and the people that have had bad WoF experiences will automatically respond with "God isn't here to give you a mansion and a yacht". Or someone says, "God wants to heal you", and it conjures up past memories of how some well-meaning, foolish WoF person hurt you or a loved one with their ill-timed, un-compassionate words, and you no longer objectively hear what is said.

For me, it's the complete opposite. I had well-meaning, non-WoF people tell me that it wasn't God's will for me to be free of allergies. But I chose not to believe that. I chose to believe that not only could God heal, but that He would heal me, simply because of His Love for me. So now when I hear people say "It might not be God's will to heal you", I think back to those well-meaning Christians who tried to incorrectly tell me that it might not God's will for me to be free of allergies, and I tend to project that into my responses.

I submit to you that NONE of us will make any progress in these debates until we allow God to remove those roots of bitterness that exist in us and stop projecting our hurts. Worse yet, the Bible tells us that not only will those roots defile us, but they will defile many around us.

The bottom line is, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. I have seen NO ONE here preaching "another gospel", as I've heard some people say.

In any event, those are just some of my random thoughts. Feel free to add your random thoughts. :cool:

[map4]

How about....Amen! :D

Some people, from both sides, don't seem to really "hear" what the others are saying. They react to what they perceive or want to hear.

[Jere209]

So, I've been lurking in the shadows of the WOF debates for a few days (somewhat), reading posts, and I've noticed something (from a WoF perspective. I'm sure the non-WoF could make the same observations...)

I'm using "WoF" topics as the example, since there are eleventy-billion threads in this debate section on these topics, but it can happen with anything.

People who say they have been "burned" by WoF tend to take a much more vehement stance against it. (Duh.)

I believe that's what you call "projection". IOW, when you see the "WoF" doctrines, or anything that remotely resembles it, it causes you to revolt. You don't actually hear what is said, and you continue to project your bad experience into everything that everyone says.

So for example, someone carrying the WOF icon says something like "God wants you to be prosperous", and the people that have had bad WoF experiences will automatically respond with "God isn't here to give you a mansion and a yacht". Or someone says, "God wants to heal you", and it conjures up past memories of how some well-meaning, foolish WoF person hurt you or a loved one with their ill-timed, un-compassionate words, and you no longer objectively hear what is said.

For me, it's the complete opposite. I had well-meaning, non-WoF people tell me that it wasn't God's will for me to be free of allergies. But I chose not to believe that. I chose to believe that not only could God heal, but that He would heal me, simply because of His Love for me. So now when I hear people say "It might not be God's will to heal you", I think back to those well-meaning Christians who tried to incorrectly tell me that it might not God's will for me to be free of allergies, and I tend to project that into my responses.

I submit to you that NONE of us will make any progress in these debates until we allow God to remove those roots of bitterness that exist in us and stop projecting our hurts. Worse yet, the Bible tells us that not only will those roots defile us, but they will defile many around us.

The bottom line is, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. I have seen NO ONE here preaching "another gospel", as I've heard some people say.

In any event, those are just some of my random thoughts. Feel free to add your random thoughts. :cool:
Thank you for posting this. It's exactly what I have been thinking, and was wondering how to bring it up. Thank you again.
God bless
Jere

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

People who say they have been "burned" by WoF tend to take a much more vehement stance against it. (Duh.)

I believe that's what you call "projection". IOW, when you see the "WoF" doctrines, or anything that remotely resembles it, it causes you to revolt. You don't actually hear what is said, and you continue to project your bad experience into everything that everyone says.

So for example, someone carrying the WOF icon says something like "God wants you to be prosperous", and the people that have had bad WoF experiences will automatically respond with "God isn't here to give you a mansion and a yacht". Or someone says, "God wants to heal you", and it conjures up past memories of how some well-meaning, foolish WoF person hurt you or a loved one with their ill-timed, un-compassionate words, and you no longer objectively hear what is said.

Unless Moriah bes mistaken, the correct term for this, in psychotherapeutic parlance, would be "abreaction". The item or element precipitating it would be known as a "trigger".

The observations you make above, incidentally, also work in matters of toxic soteriology and legalism, particularly where these have preyed upon inclinations toward scrupulosity.

Not all disagreement, however, arises from instances of abreaction. In some cases, bona fide theological differences exist which cannot easily be reconciled. We should not automatically regard disagreement as a negative thing in itself OR as inimical to unity; on the contrary, we should perceive it as a challenging opportunity to manifest a unity that transcends the worldly weakness of relying upon uniformity to maintain it.

[Tenebrae]

To be perfectly honest, the reason one of the only issues I have with WoF is because not one of its adherents can explain to me why I recieve all the things they insist can only come to its adherants

[pdudgeon]

To be perfectly honest, the reason one of the only issues I have with WoF is because not one of its adherents can explain to me why I recieve all the things they insist can only come to its adherants

James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

the reason those gifts are perfect is because they both reflect God's perfection, and they glorify him.
Satan gives gifts as well, but they are imperfect, they bind a person in sin, and they glorify satan.

the issue of people in general who are not Christians having gifts has long puzzled observers, wondering exactly where the gifts came from and how to tell the difference. But in both instances the spiritual gifts reflect the giver moreso than they do the person who uses them.

[Balance]

To be perfectly honest, the reason one of the only issues I have with WoF is because not one of its adherents can explain to me why I recieve all the things they insist can only come to its adherants


From a Word of Faith pastor, I just want to saythat whoeversaid that to you is a moron and has no clue what we believe.

I'm sorry you had to hear such crap.

[MadameGuyon]

I believe that's what you call "projection". IOW, when you see the "WoF" doctrines, or anything that remotely resembles it, it causes you to revolt. You don't actually hear what is said, and you continue to project your bad experience into everything that everyone says.

The Bible calls this 'offense'. I have seen women who have tried to submit to unkind husbands, become very offended at the scriptures on submission, so that if it was brought up, they reacted with great anger.

Usually, it is only with great care that true submission and being a door mat can be separated in their mind, so that the offense at God's word can be rectified.

But as you have said, the worse thing that happens is that offense shuts down hearing what is true, due to the wound experienced from the false. The person who thinks themselves free is sometimes just in another bondage of a different kind.

[JimfromOhio]

For awhile, right after I left WOF (my very, very short stay many, many years ago), I would not even go into WOF's situation. However, "they" keep appearing and I am on the receiving end of "hearing" (reading) their doctrines, especially in this forum. Man's doctrines often gets in the way of the doctrine of love. Thinking logically is a tough thing to do because it works against our human and horizontal perspective on true eternal salvation (healing). From a non-WOF Christian perspective, we believe that God's Word is true and that He can be trusted to perform all that He has promised. Our faith is in God that He has provided through His Spirit, not in faith itself.

Holy Spirit's convictions are to break down our pleasures, pride, passions, selfish motives however if you READ carefully, and compare doctrinal notes, you will see why I can't accept their doctrines. We should all take a long hard look at what things we consider to be important from God's perspective rather than man's perspective. This is like Jesus versus Pharisees & Scribes. The Scribes and Pharisees were guilty of bibliolatry and they did highly honor the words of Scripture (Old Testament). They knew the Book and so tragic that the knowing the words of the Book, knew not its Author. "You know neither me nor my Father," pronounced Jesus. People can take sides and I would be on Jesus' side. The new creature in Spirit within us as for example Jesus likened the religious Pharisees to a group of dishwashers who clean the outside of a cup while leaving the inside dirty. He said, "Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. Foolish ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also?" (Luke 11:39-40). The true prophet says humbly, "To me, a sinful man, God spoke." But the scribes and Pharisees declare, "When we speak, God agrees."

So in reality, this will not stop until Christ returns. Until then, divisions and strifes will continue.

[JimfromOhio]

I'm sorry you had to hear such crap.

I know the feeling.

[LeadWorship]

lol Pete - I do believe we travel in the same wave length. At our church, we call it being "unified in Spirit". ;)

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7263439

[LeadWorship]

sry dbl post.

[probinson]

For awhile, right after I left WOF (my very, very short stay many, many years ago), I would not even go into WOF's situation. However, "they" keep appearing and I am on the receiving end of "hearing" (reading) their doctrines, especially in this forum.
This is a perfect example of my OP.

You were in WoF, by your own words, for a "very short stay many, many years ago". But here you are, trying to tell us what WoF people believe.

And then, you started a thread (here (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7262990)) about Fanny Crosby, in which YOU brought up whether it was God's will to heal her or not. Now I assume I'm a "they" in your post that keeps appearing, but all I said in that thread was "God bless Fanny Crosby" to answer your question, to which you brought up the WoF doctrine. It didn't appear until you brought it up...

And I'm sure I've done the same thing, starting a topic myself and then saying, "Why are we always talking about this?" That's a clue to everyone else...

The point is, you believe that you see WoF doctrine under every rock, because you are so vehemently opposed to it that you interject it into everything we talk about, even when no one's brought it up.

[Jimbeaux]

So, I've been lurking in the shadows of the WOF debates for a few days (somewhat), reading posts, and I've noticed something (from a WoF perspective. I'm sure the non-WoF could make the same observations...)

I'm using "WoF" topics as the example, since there are eleventy-billion threads in this debate section on these topics, but it can happen with anything.

People who say they have been "burned" by WoF tend to take a much more vehement stance against it. (Duh.)

I believe that's what you call "projection". IOW, when you see the "WoF" doctrines, or anything that remotely resembles it, it causes you to revolt. You don't actually hear what is said, and you continue to project your bad experience into everything that everyone says.

So for example, someone carrying the WOF icon says something like "God wants you to be prosperous", and the people that have had bad WoF experiences will automatically respond with "God isn't here to give you a mansion and a yacht". Or someone says, "God wants to heal you", and it conjures up past memories of how some well-meaning, foolish WoF person hurt you or a loved one with their ill-timed, un-compassionate words, and you no longer objectively hear what is said.

For me, it's the complete opposite. I had well-meaning, non-WoF people tell me that it wasn't God's will for me to be free of allergies. But I chose not to believe that. I chose to believe that not only could God heal, but that He would heal me, simply because of His Love for me. So now when I hear people say "It might not be God's will to heal you", I think back to those well-meaning Christians who tried to incorrectly tell me that it might not God's will for me to be free of allergies, and I tend to project that into my responses.

I submit to you that NONE of us will make any progress in these debates until we allow God to remove those roots of bitterness that exist in us and stop projecting our hurts. Worse yet, the Bible tells us that not only will those roots defile us, but they will defile many around us.

The bottom line is, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. I have seen NO ONE here preaching "another gospel", as I've heard some people say.

In any event, those are just some of my random thoughts. Feel free to add your random thoughts. :cool:

This is a good post, Pete. Truth always lies somewhere between the extremes.

I was not “burned” by WOF. I just simple came to a point where WOF’s more outlandish claims did not measure up to what it promised—signs did not confirm what was being preached—so I stepped back and reevaluated what I had been taught. And I rejected some (but not all) of it and left a fellowship of hopeful (they would say faith-full) believers who selectively believed the scriptures they wanted to believe and explained away those they didn’t want to believe. It was a personal choice, a watershed moment after years of defending indefensible positions, not one that came from being "burned". The WOF people I associated with were, for the most part, caring people—a little more self-centered than most, but caring.

Somewhere between God always wanting a person to be healed in every instance and faith being a formula to get whatever I want from God (my cosmic genie in a bottle) and those who believe it is God’s will for a sick person to always be sick and faith not factoring into anything, lies the truth.

Admittedly, I am trying to find that point of balance between the extremes. Threads like this can help if we don’t go to extremes defending an indefensible position (on either side).

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[probinson]

Not all disagreement, however, arises from instances of abreaction. In some cases, bona fide theological differences exist which cannot easily be reconciled. We should not automatically regard disagreement as a negative thing in itself OR as inimical to unity; on the contrary, we should perceive it as a challenging opportunity to manifest a unity that transcends the worldly weakness of relying upon uniformity to maintain it.
While I agree that not all disagreement results from this, I would say that very little disagreement on this forum finds its root in bona fide theological differences. All you have to do is listen to ourselves talk. "When I was in a WoF church, they told me I didn't have enough faith." "My grandma was a great woman of faith, and that lady had the nerve to tell her she wasn't in faith." "My cousin was deeply hurt by WoF people". Or if you prefer, "That guy told me it wasn't God's will to heal me, and if I'd listened to him, I might be dead." "I've known people that will try to talk you out of what you're believing for and discourage your faith." .... the list could go on and on...

Everyone of those statements is indicative of an experience that has tainted our ability to hear one another clearly. Instead of hearing what people are truly saying, we hear the echos of the people that have hurt us.

People will tell you that they've let those things go, and they don't affect them anymore, but when someone repeatedly talks about the hurt they endured, they have not let it go, and they're only fooling themselves into thinking they have.

Example; Some people know that I went through a church split about 5 years back that included much of my family (on both sides of the split) and people I thought I could trust. I'll spare you the details, but it was ugly. In any event, I told myself it didn't affect me, but when people would ask, I would go on and on about how wrong it was, and how they'd hurt "others" in the church by leaving, and just generally get all fired up about it.

It even transferred over to my posting at CF. I'd read threads about people who were thinking of leaving their church, and I would reply very abruptly. It wasn't until about 2 years ago that I finally went to God and said, "Help."

I had to get real with myself. Everyone knew it was affecting me, but I refused to admit it. In reality, I now know that I wanted to hold on to that offense, because it made me feel justified to attack the people that had done that, under the guise of "warning" people of what could happen.

Now that I'm done telling on myself, ;) God taught me something in the midst of all this, and I began to see clearer than ever the hurts inside me and the way it was causing me to react to people. So I began the process of letting those hurts go, with God healing the wounds of the past. And as that healing process began, I began to notice the same things that I saw in myself in other people.

Certainly I'm not perfect in this aspect, but I'm relating my story here in hopes that it will help someone realize, that unless we allow God to heal those past hurts and wounds that people have inflicted upon us, we will continue to have roots of bitterness in us that will prevent us from hearing clearly what others are saying, and those roots will cause us to hurt others as well.

[map4]

While I agree that not all disagreement results from this, I would say that very little disagreement on this forum finds its root in bona fide theological differences. All you have to do is listen to ourselves talk. "When I was in a WoF church, they told me I didn't have enough faith." "My grandma was a great woman of faith, and that lady had the nerve to tell her she wasn't in faith." "My cousin was deeply hurt by WoF people". Or if you prefer, "That guy told me it wasn't God's will to heal me, and if I'd listened to him, I might be dead." "I've known people that will try to talk you out of what you're believing for and discourage your faith." .... the list could go on and on...

Everyone of those statements is indicative of an experience that has tainted our ability to hear one another clearly. Instead of hearing what people are truly saying, we hear the echos of the people that have hurt us.

People will tell you that they've let those things go, and they don't affect them anymore, but when someone repeatedly talks about the hurt they endured, they have not let it go, and they're only fooling themselves into thinking they have.

Example; Some people know that I went through a church split about 5 years back that included much of my family (on both sides of the split) and people I thought I could trust. I'll spare you the details, but it was ugly. In any event, I told myself it didn't affect me, but when people would ask, I would go on and on about how wrong it was, and how they'd hurt "others" in the church by leaving, and just generally get all fired up about it.

It even transferred over to my posting at CF. I'd read threads about people who were thinking of leaving their church, and I would reply very abruptly. It wasn't until about 2 years ago that I finally went to God and said, "Help."

I had to get real with myself. Everyone knew it was affecting me, but I refused to admit it. In reality, I now know that I wanted to hold on to that offense, because it made me feel justified to attack the people that had done that, under the guise of "warning" people of what could happen.

Now that I'm done telling on myself, ;) God taught me something in the midst of all this, and I began to see clearer than ever the hurts inside me and the way it was causing me to react to people. So I began the process of letting those hurts go, with God healing the wounds of the past. And as that healing process began, I began to notice the same things that I saw in myself in other people.

Certainly I'm not perfect in this aspect, but I'm relating my story here in hopes that it will help someone realize, that unless we allow God to heal those past hurts and wounds that people have inflicted upon us, we will continue to have roots of bitterness in us that will prevent us from hearing clearly what others are saying, and those roots will cause us to hurt others as well.


Good post, thank you.

I believe that root of bitterness is one of the most harmful things there is.
The root spreads from the original thing that made us bitter to all areas of our lives. It chokes out the truth of showing God's love and grace to others because we end up seeing and reacting to everything through that bitterness. Being bitter, imo, is a classic sign of selfishness and being 'me' centered. I know, I am speaking from experience here :).
Bitterness gave me a "victim" mentality and a false sense of humility. 'Woe is me' for I have been so hurt and wronged. And I wanted everyone to know how hurt and wronged I was. 'See, I am justified in feeling the way I do. Just look at what they did to me'. I didn't see that I was doing the very same thing to others through bitterness.

Thank God for His mercy and grace!

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

The person who thinks themselves free is sometimes just in another bondage of a different kind.

^^ QFT ^^

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Holy Spirit's convictions are to break down our pleasures, pride, passions, selfish motives however if you READ carefully, and compare doctrinal notes, you will see why I can't accept their doctrines. We should all take a long hard look at what things we consider to be important from God's perspective rather than man's perspective. This is like Jesus versus Pharisees & Scribes. The Scribes and Pharisees were guilty of bibliolatry and they did highly honor the words of Scripture (Old Testament). They knew the Book and so tragic that the knowing the words of the Book, knew not its Author. "You know neither me nor my Father," pronounced Jesus. People can take sides and I would be on Jesus' side. The new creature in Spirit within us as for example Jesus likened the religious Pharisees to a group of dishwashers who clean the outside of a cup while leaving the inside dirty. He said, "Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. Foolish ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also?" (Luke 11:39-40). The true prophet says humbly, "To me, a sinful man, God spoke." But the scribes and Pharisees declare, "When we speak, God agrees."

So in reality, this will not stop until Christ returns. Until then, divisions and strifes will continue.

Yes, in the world we will have tribulation and that includes the world of the church, unfortunately. There bes no safe haven in a sick divided Body so we must seek as much as possible to live in peace and to find fellowship with believers God places in our path to be part of our experience and journey with Him. Likewise the Bible says it must needs that offenses come but woe to him by whom they come (because he makes little ones to stumble -- we bes ALL God's "little ones" and "little" in Him--John addresses us as "Little children" for example in his epistles). So we must endeavor not to be either the source of strife and division ourselves or the factor that keeps perpetuating it and exacerbating it.

There bes time and season for everything -- a time to speak up and a time to be silent included. Sometimes the appropriate thing to do bes to challenge another's belief -- in love and kindness taking heed of our own frailty and potential to err -- and sometimes it works best just to note the error that snares them and take it to the Lord in prayer.

Just Moriah's thoughts on this of late, of how it wishes to order its life and walk in Him and believes He calls it to. What bes work for it bes in its nature to be confrontational and contentious particularly when it comes to matters of setting truth against error. It takes humbleness to see where one needs changing course so it prays God for this blessed special mercy from Him. Anyway hope its thoughts bes a help and edify to others.

[map4]

Yes, in the world we will have tribulation and that includes the world of the church, unfortunately. There bes no safe haven in a sick divided Body so we must seek as much as possible to live in peace and to find fellowship with believers God places in our path to be part of our experience and journey with Him. Likewise the Bible says it must needs that offenses come but woe to him by whom they come (because he makes little ones to stumble -- we bes ALL God's "little ones" and "little" in Him--John addresses us as "Little children" for example in his epistles). So we must endeavor not to be either the source of strife and division ourselves or the factor that keeps perpetuating it and exacerbating it.

There bes time and season for everything -- a time to speak up and a time to be silent included. Sometimes the appropriate thing to do bes to challenge another's belief -- in love and kindness taking heed of our own frailty and potential to err -- and sometimes it works best just to note the error that snares them and take it to the Lord in prayer.

Just Moriah's thoughts on this of late, of how it wishes to order its life and walk in Him and believes He calls it to. What bes work for it bes in its nature to be confrontational and contentious particularly when it comes to matters of setting truth against error. It takes humbleness to see where one needs changing course so it prays God for this blessed special mercy from Him. Anyway hope its thoughts bes a help and edify to others.

Thank you Moriah. :)

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Good post, thank you.

I believe that root of bitterness is one of the most harmful things there is.
The root spreads from the original thing that made us bitter to all areas of our lives. It chokes out the truth of showing God's love and grace to others because we end up seeing and reacting to everything through that bitterness. Being bitter, imo, is a classic sign of selfishness and being 'me' centered. I know, I am speaking from experience here :).
Agree totally that bitterness causes tremendous spiritual, psychological and emotional harm, but our personal experiences with it seem to differ a bit . In Moriah's experience it did not have to do with selfishness. Moriah experiences it as related to being wounded and harmed by someone else, as the fallout thereof and what threats to spring up if we do not open our hearts to God and express willingness to forgive. Bitterness lies to us and tries to seduce us with false promises of making us strong and protected so we will not get hurt again when in reality it seeks to make a prison of our pain and turn us into helpless, involuntary inflicters of pain on others in the process.

Not saying your experience bes not valid -- perhaps it sang different swan songs to you -- just sharing what its own has been. :) If you'd like to read more about what the Holy Spirit showed Moriah about this it bes in its blog in this entry here (http://christianforums.com/blog.php?b=1973) (click link).

I didn't see that I was doing the very same thing to others through bitterness.
Thank God for His mercy and grace!
This much, though, we shared in common in wrestling that monster -- and yes thank God indeed for without His precious Spirit striving for both our sakes we would easily be overtaken by this monster and made into its slave.

[probinson]

Thank you all for your responses. This is something that is becoming more and more real to me every day.

In case you missed it back in March, I made a groovy thread on spam, (the "meat", not the unsolicited commercial email) that talked about this very topic.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6990167

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

While I agree that not all disagreement results from this, I would say that very little disagreement on this forum finds its root in bona fide theological differences. All you have to do is listen to ourselves talk. "When I was in a WoF church, they told me I didn't have enough faith." "My grandma was a great woman of faith, and that lady had the nerve to tell her she wasn't in faith." "My cousin was deeply hurt by WoF people". Or if you prefer, "That guy told me it wasn't God's will to heal me, and if I'd listened to him, I might be dead." "I've known people that will try to talk you out of what you're believing for and discourage your faith." .... the list could go on and on...
Understands your point BUT ... often personal experience results in krisis, the act of drawing a distinction between one thing and another, i.e., a change in one's theological perspective as a result. Perhaps those experiences serve as reference points to the individual for where s/he began to question deeply things s/he'd been taught that had never met with a reality-challenge before, and in the course of so doing, discovered that while those formerly embraced teachings may have had some truth in them, another perspective and awareness added even further truth and caused them to have to leave behind the former for the latter in order to proceed with their journey of faith. We need to be open to this matter as well and not, simply because it seems to validate our own stance, take to coloring everyone with the same brush.

For example, Moriah (who still confesses to having to wrestle a bit with bruised feelings over this) can refer to a time it got brainwashed totally by what it terms "toxic soteriology" as precipitating a tremendous crisis in faith -- a shipwreck thereof really -- and thus this experience it can recall becomes the "first cause" in a chain of circumstances and experiences precipitating a radical shift in its own theological awareness, one it genuinely believes to be for the better as this shift has freed it from the psychological clutches of a cultic and spiritually abusive line of dogma touted by a particular 'sect' it now knows it does NOT have to return to in order to return to Christ. Without that harrowing experience and the awareness it brought, though, it would still be in the dark concerning law and grace, confusing the latter for a mere backdrop to the former, and still in misery. But though it freely admits to still wrestling with bad feelings over that at times, this does not become the sum total of its motivation in sharing the experience, but rather it shares so that others will not be ensnared by those subtle lies that prey upon the most earnest among us.

Everyone of those statements is indicative of an experience that has tainted our ability to hear one another clearly. Again -- that MAY have so tainted. In some cases yes, people appear to be abreacting, but honestly, having no particular horse in this race by the way, Moriah sees just as much abreaction from people on the "WoF" side, literally terrified or utterly refusing and avoidant when it comes to entertaining the possibility of another perspective or approach to a painful situation to the point where they read "tone" into others' words that bes not there and attribute offense at the content to offense at what they imagine to be some motive or attitude the person sharing simply may not have at all.

Instead of hearing what people are truly saying, we hear the echos of the people that have hurt us.Not denying this happens in some cases, just saying not all. Again, we need to be careful not to judge. No one should have to endure being saddled with a label that doesn't fit their actual being and expression, and saying to someone who truly has a different perspective on the matter that their perspective bes invalid simply because the precipitating event causing them to examine the matter more closely bes, well, what typically WILL precipitate people to closer examination of their beliefs, hmmm that just seems dismissive somehow, like saying their whole journey to find answers and resolution to what HAD been a painful experience bes "invalid" somehow because they can reference the precipitating experience.

People will tell you that they've let those things go, and they don't affect them anymore, but when someone repeatedly talks about the hurt they endured, they have not let it go, and they're only fooling themselves into thinking they have.Remembering a precipitating event does not constitute bearing a grudge or holding onto bitterness over a hurt. It simply constitutes being able to point to a logical sequence of events. Again we must take care not to judge. Usually if someone bes still hurting over something it shows in more than just the ability to recollect and state "event X happened".

Now that I'm done telling on myself, ;) God taught me something in the midst of all this, and I began to see clearer than ever the hurts inside me and the way it was causing me to react to people. So I began the process of letting those hurts go, with God healing the wounds of the past. And as that healing process began, I began to notice the same things that I saw in myself in other people. Yes, and you will. Excellent testimony btw. It might help others recognize where those things bes going on for themselves. :thumbsup:

Certainly I'm not perfect in this aspect, but I'm relating my story here in hopes that it will help someone realize, that unless we allow God to heal those past hurts and wounds that people have inflicted upon us, we will continue to have roots of bitterness in us that will prevent us from hearing clearly what others are saying, and those roots will cause us to hurt others as well.As a point in and of itself, this (in bold) certainly bears repeating and being given serious and sober consideration. So please be aware that by bringing a little "balancing factor" here (what it intends doing by its responsing) it bes not seeking to undermine or erase the force of your point here -- please don't feel that way Bro. :)

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Thank you all for your responses. This is something that is becoming more and more real to me every day.

In case you missed it back in March, I made a groovy thread on spam, (the "meat", not the unsolicited commercial email) that talked about this very topic.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6990167

From your spam post:
But, if I continue to post about the evils of spam, day in and day out, for years on end, you might start to wonder about me and begin to think that maybe the problem doesn't exist with the spam, but really, it's with me, and I must really have some deep seated issues with spam.

If the only thing I ever talk about is how awful and negative spam is, you would rightly draw the conclusion that I have obviously had some horrendous experiences with spam. Perhaps it made me sick when I ate it. Perhaps someone tricked me into eating spam when they told me it was some other meat. Whatever it may be, if my "obsession" became about spam, you would begin to wonder why I was holding on to such bitterness regarding spam.There may be others besides Moriah who recognize the attempt to pre-emptively configure others' perceptions by putting forth this meme. Moriah terms this "social engineering". By placing a specific coloring and characterization of something "out there" and making a good case for it (usually based on the fact that in SOME cases yes, it indeed reflects the reality of the situation, but not in ALL) one clearly hopes to "stack the deck" in terms of human perception concerning any and all future discourse on the matter, thus saving oneself the trouble of having to actually meet and answer legitimate challenges to one's own perspective, position or stance on a matter. If all such challenges can be pre-emptively negated through socially-engineered automatic invalidation, no further need to answer them exists.

This, too, alas, proves itself the product of bitterness in that it seeks to deny authentic voice to those who disagree with whatever position or stance the one engaging in this social engineering takes, and thus pre-program others to automatically assess any such disagreement in this fashion and dismiss any validity it might contain.

Another word exists for such tactics: sorcery. This bes nothing short of linguistic and memetic sorcery, a low-level application of dark psycho-spiritual tech for the purposes of establishing control. You may not be aware of that, Probe, since you do not have a background (as far as Moriah bes aware) in authentic occultism.

[map4]

Agree totally that bitterness causes tremendous spiritual, psychological and emotional harm, but our personal experiences with it seem to differ a bit . In Moriah's experience it did not have to do with selfishness. Moriah experiences it as related to being wounded and harmed by someone else, as the fallout thereof and what threats to spring up if we do not open our hearts to God and express willingness to forgive. Bitterness lies to us and tries to seduce us with false promises of making us strong and protected so we will not get hurt again when in reality it seeks to make a prison of our pain and turn us into helpless, involuntary inflicters of pain on others in the process.

Not saying your experience bes not valid -- perhaps it sang different swan songs to you -- just sharing what its own has been. :) If you'd like to read more about what the Holy Spirit showed Moriah about this it bes in its blog in this entry here (http://christianforums.com/blog.php?b=1973) (click link).


This much, though, we shared in common in wrestling that monster -- and yes thank God indeed for without His precious Spirit striving for both our sakes we would easily be overtaken by this monster and made into its slave.

Yes, I agree with what you said.

To me, when I say selfishness, I used bitterness to focus on me and my hurts and how I was 'wronged'. I was also a defense mechanism in that I lashed out through bitterness at the 'one' who made me bitter. Trying to inflict as much pain as I had received.
Short explanation...several years ago my husband and I were going through a rough time. Because of things that have happened to him he is, at times, angry and bitter. And, when alcohol is involved he could say some very hurtful things. I took offense and allowed bitterness to take root. I'm not in any way excusing his actions...but I wasn't seeing the 'big picture'. I lashed right back at him through bitterness. It was very ugly at times. But, I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. I felt fully justified in acting just as bad as him. God used my youngest son, who I think was about 4 or 5 at the time. I made a comment about me and his daddy arguing so much (fully thinking that he would 'side' with me)...and he said, "yeah, mom. Sometimes you are really mean to dad." Talk about an eye opener :).
When I stepped back and looked at things...I realized that I took a lot of stuff personally that was not directed to me personally. I was my husband's "safety zone" where he could vent. He felt safe with me. He was venting to me, not at me. I had become so bitter that I saw personal attacks in everything. God showed me this, not to excuse my husband's actions, but to see that I had become a hindrance and not a help. My actions were making things worse. I began to really listen to my husband and saw his hurt and pain from past experiences. When I saw this I was able to begin to help him heal from these. And, I knew how to direct my prayers concerning him. I saw him as he really is...a child of God in pain who needs a touch from God. He needs the healing power of the Holy Spirit in his life. But, oh, how he fights it :). It is not easy, but God is helping me to love him the way He does.

[JimfromOhio]

This is a perfect example of my OP.

You were in WoF, by your own words, for a "very short stay many, many years ago". But here you are, trying to tell us what WoF people believe.

And then, you started a thread (here (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7262990)) about Fanny Crosby, in which YOU brought up whether it was God's will to heal her or not. Now I assume I'm a "they" in your post that keeps appearing, but all I said in that thread was "God bless Fanny Crosby" to answer your question, to which you brought up the WoF doctrine. It didn't appear until you brought it up...

And I'm sure I've done the same thing, starting a topic myself and then saying, "Why are we always talking about this?" That's a clue to everyone else...

The point is, you believe that you see WoF doctrine under every rock, because you are so vehemently opposed to it that you interject it into everything we talk about, even when no one's brought it up.

You are right. I had a motive to post that thread. However, its the same motive as some WOF's threads that talks about prosperity and healing. So, therefore everyone is guilty of starting up threads with bias views and one-side agenda.

As you know, this kind of debate has been going on for a long time and everyone has different point of views regarding "extreme doctrines".

Speaking of extreme doctrines, I found Newsong's thread and the link to the article interesting. Paula White even tried to play "pity game".
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7263778

[probinson]

From your spam post:
There may be others besides Moriah who recognize the attempt to pre-emptively configure others' perceptions by putting forth this meme. Moriah terms this "social engineering". By placing a specific coloring and characterization of something "out there" and making a good case for it (usually based on the fact that in SOME cases yes, it indeed reflects the reality of the situation, but not in ALL) one clearly hopes to "stack the deck" in terms of human perception concerning any and all future discourse on the matter, thus saving oneself the trouble of having to actually meet and answer legitimate challenges to one's own perspective, position or stance on a matter. If all such challenges can be pre-emptively negated through socially-engineered automatic invalidation, no further need to answer them exists.

This, too, alas, proves itself the product of bitterness in that it seeks to deny authentic voice to those who disagree with whatever position or stance the one engaging in this social engineering takes, and thus pre-program others to automatically assess any such disagreement in this fashion and dismiss any validity it might contain.

Another word exists for such tactics: sorcery. This bes nothing short of linguistic and memetic sorcery, a low-level application of dark psycho-spiritual tech for the purposes of establishing control. You may not be aware of that, Probe, since you do not have a background (as far as Moriah bes aware) in authentic occultism.
Astounding...

All I can say is for one who has been admonishing me not to judge people incorrectly, you've just done a whopper of a job misjudging my post and my intent.

:cool:

[pinetree]

So, I've been lurking in the shadows of the WOF debates for a few days (somewhat), reading posts, and I've noticed something (from a WoF perspective. I'm sure the non-WoF could make the same observations...)

I'm using "WoF" topics as the example, since there are eleventy-billion threads in this debate section on these topics, but it can happen with anything.

People who say they have been "burned" by WoF tend to take a much more vehement stance against it. (Duh.)

I believe that's what you call "projection". IOW, when you see the "WoF" doctrines, or anything that remotely resembles it, it causes you to revolt. You don't actually hear what is said, and you continue to project your bad experience into everything that everyone says.

So for example, someone carrying the WOF icon says something like "God wants you to be prosperous", and the people that have had bad WoF experiences will automatically respond with "God isn't here to give you a mansion and a yacht". Or someone says, "God wants to heal you", and it conjures up past memories of how some well-meaning, foolish WoF person hurt you or a loved one with their ill-timed, un-compassionate words, and you no longer objectively hear what is said.

For me, it's the complete opposite. I had well-meaning, non-WoF people tell me that it wasn't God's will for me to be free of allergies. But I chose not to believe that. I chose to believe that not only could God heal, but that He would heal me, simply because of His Love for me. So now when I hear people say "It might not be God's will to heal you", I think back to those well-meaning Christians who tried to incorrectly tell me that it might not God's will for me to be free of allergies, and I tend to project that into my responses.

I submit to you that NONE of us will make any progress in these debates until we allow God to remove those roots of bitterness that exist in us and stop projecting our hurts. Worse yet, the Bible tells us that not only will those roots defile us, but they will defile many around us.

The bottom line is, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. I have seen NO ONE here preaching "another gospel", as I've heard some people say.

In any event, those are just some of my random thoughts. Feel free to add your random thoughts. :cool:
The problem I have with your op is this..

It sounds like you are saying that all who disagree with wof,are just so blinded with bitterness,and so projecting that they cant see straight!

Sometimes what is viewed as bitterness,is really just a healthy reaction to what one views as wrong.On both sides.

Read Pauls " bitterness" in gal 5:12..
"As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!"

So to some up,the op is saying we cant see straight,and what is aggression,is being called bitterness.That is a political tactic to silence someone with an opposing view.

if you speak out,you are bitter..and then you are put on the defense..and instead of talking doctrine,you are defending against the accusation.

[GreatistheLord]

Yes, I think it colours so much of our reactions and we are all guilty at least to some degree. We each have a theological background we want to defend, and take some personal gratification when other people justify it, and vice versa. It's human nature.

I see too many times when someone has a really good response in a thread, shows true wisdom, and the other person casually ignores it and responds with a blithe generalisation that says very little about the topic.

The *hope* that we have is that occassionally, someone will really think about if they are really right, or more realistically, if they are too extreme in a view.

[probinson]

The problem I have with your op is this..

It sounds like you are saying that all who disagree with wof,are just so blinded with bitterness,and so projecting that they cant see straight!
Excellent demonstration of the OP! :thumbsup:

In the OP, I said this;

from a WoF perspective. I'm sure the non-WoF could make the same observations...)
and this...

I'm using "WoF" topics as the example, since there are eleventy-billion threads in this debate section on these topics, but it can happen with anything.
and this...

So now when I hear people say "It might not be God's will to heal you", I think back to those well-meaning Christians who tried to incorrectly tell me that it might not God's will for me to be free of allergies, and I tend to project that into my responses.
and this...

I submit to you that NONE of us will make any progress in these debates until we allow Godto remove those roots of bitterness that exist in us and stop projecting our hurts.
and this...

I have seen NO ONE here preaching "another gospel", as I've heard some people say.
But you didn't "hear" any of that. All you heard was an indictment of non-WoF, despite the fact that I said I was coming from a WoF viewpoint and that non-WoF could make the same observations. Despite the fact that I said I myself was guilty of projecting things into my posts.

You didn't hear that at all. You heard what you wanted to hear, and nothing more, which is unfortunately, what most of us do, and that was the point of the OP.

[GreatistheLord]

These icons don't help either. Anyone with a WOF icon posting in certain forums on this site is just asking for it, sorry to say.

[pinetree]

Excellent demonstration of the OP! :thumbsup:

In the OP, I said this;

and this...

and this...

and this...

and this...

But you didn't "hear" any of that. All you heard was an indictment of non-WoF, despite the fact that I said I was coming from a WoF viewpoint and that non-WoF could make the same observations. Despite the fact that I said I myself was guilty of projecting things into my posts.

You didn't hear that at all. You heard what you wanted to hear, and nothing more, which is unfortunately, what most of us do, and that was the point of the OP.
I will let my post stand.:)

[Jimbeaux]

These icons don't help either. Anyone with a WOF icon posting in certain forums on this site is just asking for it, sorry to say.

Why is that? Much of what WOF believes is orthodox and solicits no debate from any believer. It is those few more controversial ideas that are unique to WOF, which IMO have not been completely thought through, that are debated, and rightly so.



If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

... I lashed out through bitterness at the 'one' who made me bitter. Trying to inflict as much pain as I had received.
Short explanation...several years ago my husband and I were going through a rough time. Because of things that have happened to him he is, at times, angry and bitter. And, when alcohol is involved he could say some very hurtful things. I took offense and allowed bitterness to take root. I'm not in any way excusing his actions...but I wasn't seeing the 'big picture'. I lashed right back at him through bitterness. It was very ugly at times.
Yep ... been there, done that, got the tee shirt, gave the seminars. ^_^ Not the alcohol or the husband, but the whole lashing out in bitterness thing. Still very much a thorn to wrestle for daimonizomai as it has been dealt some incredibly outrageous levels of very personal and direct pain and injustice by humans in its lifetime, or at least it feels that way in proportion to its native intelligence and ability to keenly penetrate facades -- often it thinks the less intelligent, more shallow and unaware types must be far happier that way for the simple fact that what they don't perceive accurately will whizz past their ears rather than sticking in their hearts as barbs ... that kind of oblivion might actually be nice .... not sure what the price would be for it though. To be continually made a fool would be horrible, but perhaps not so much as seeing through it every time others stupidly attempt it.

When I stepped back and looked at things...I realized that I took a lot of stuff personally that was not directed to me personally. I was my husband's "safety zone" where he could vent. He felt safe with me. He was venting to me, not at me. ..... ..... [B]I saw personal attacks in everything. Got a very VERY VERY painful personal situation going on right now that resembles this, with one who used to be a close friend but now bes estranged. Moriah would be like you, with its friend being like your husband, in this parallel situation. This bes the crux of it exactly -- she has forgotten who Moriah truly bes and what causes certain matters and -- Moriah speculates -- after laboring long and hard to earn that level of trust found it too difficult to bear and endure what it means to have daimonizomai feel safe enough with you to let the necessary spiritual warfare spill out into the emotional and relational level. She mistook this for being abused and unappreciated and began to see personal attack and personal offense in everything. :( :cry: so after promising never to forsake or abandon daimonizomai she resort to judging it falsely from those things and abandons it anyway. This has caused more pain, upheaval, and severe damage than even its own captors could inflict, and done more to damage its efforts to find freedom than anything they could come up with, and it has spun out with the desperation of NEEDING her to know the severity of this impact, NOT to lash back or hurt her over it but so she will realize the wrongness of it and turn back. But it bes futile because she remains convinced of the lies They have always sought to sell anyone who gets too close so as to pose a threat to Their longstanding and comfortable dominion. :cry:

Anyway -- it did not mean to spill its guts here -- just wanted to share that it could relate to what you bes saying, and how it wishes its estranged precious one could see what you have come to see in this. :cry:

God showed me this, not to excuse my husband's actions, but to see that I had become a hindrance and not a help. My actions were making things worse. I began to really listen to my husband and saw his hurt and pain from past experiences. When I saw this I was able to begin to help him heal from these. And, I knew how to direct my prayers concerning him. I saw him as he really is...a child of God in pain who needs a touch from God. He needs the healing power of the Holy Spirit in his life. But, oh, how he fights it :). It is not easy, but God is helping me to love him the way He does.
Yeah, but see, you STARTED from a position of wrongness and then CAME to this... into this awareness you now have ... you could not help how you felt/perceived before; it bes your natural reaction or whatever that you had to "learn better about" from God and thus having seen what He showed you, you make conscious selection of that over your previous interpretation of things and conscious effort to live the light you have seen. BUT in Moriah's situation its estranged precious one BEGAN with this clarity and awareness KNOWING the truth of the matter from God and then ENDED UP turning aside from the truth and yielding to the lies AFTER having known better. :cry:
There bes NO remedying THAT ... NONE. :cry:

[probinson]

Yes, I agree with what you said.

To me, when I say selfishness, I used bitterness to focus on me and my hurts and how I was 'wronged'. I was also a defense mechanism in that I lashed out through bitterness at the 'one' who made me bitter. Trying to inflict as much pain as I had received.
Short explanation...several years ago my husband and I were going through a rough time. Because of things that have happened to him he is, at times, angry and bitter. And, when alcohol is involved he could say some very hurtful things. I took offense and allowed bitterness to take root. I'm not in any way excusing his actions...but I wasn't seeing the 'big picture'. I lashed right back at him through bitterness. It was very ugly at times. But, I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. I felt fully justified in acting just as bad as him. God used my youngest son, who I think was about 4 or 5 at the time. I made a comment about me and his daddy arguing so much (fully thinking that he would 'side' with me)...and he said, "yeah, mom. Sometimes you are really mean to dad." Talk about an eye opener :).
When I stepped back and looked at things...I realized that I took a lot of stuff personally that was not directed to me personally. I was my husband's "safety zone" where he could vent. He felt safe with me. He was venting to me, not at me. I had become so bitter that I saw personal attacks in everything. God showed me this, not to excuse my husband's actions, but to see that I had become a hindrance and not a help. My actions were making things worse. I began to really listen to my husband and saw his hurt and pain from past experiences. When I saw this I was able to begin to help him heal from these. And, I knew how to direct my prayers concerning him. I saw him as he really is...a child of God in pain who needs a touch from God. He needs the healing power of the Holy Spirit in his life. But, oh, how he fights it :). It is not easy, but God is helping me to love him the way He does.
Thank you for sharing this!

I think the key is what you said about seeing his hurt and pain from past experiences. For this to really "work" in us, we have to stop saying "woe is me, I was wronged", or as the Amplified Bible puts it, Love does not insist on its own rights or its own way, and pays no attention to a suffered wrong.

Boy, is that ever hard, because our flesh wants JUSTICE when someone does something wrong to us. But when we choose Love, God unlocks and opens doors that we never dreamed possible.

Thank you for sharing your personal story. :cool:

[map4]

Thank you for sharing this!

I think the key is what you said about seeing his hurt and pain from past experiences. For this to really "work" in us, we have to stop saying "woe is me, I was wronged", or as the Amplified Bible puts it, Love does not insist on its own rights or its own way, and pays no attention to a suffered wrong.

Boy, is that ever hard, because our flesh wants JUSTICE when someone does something wrong to us. But when we choose Love, God unlocks and opens doors that we never dreamed possible.

Thank you for sharing your personal story. :cool:

You are so right about flesh wanting justice :).

Thank God for His mercy and GRACE!

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Boy, is that ever hard, because our flesh wants JUSTICE when someone does something wrong to us. But when we choose Love, God unlocks and opens doors that we never dreamed possible.
Yes, indeed He does!! (Trusting in Him for that anyway) -- and even before He does, the RELIEF ALONE, having that heavy yoke of soul-corroding MISERY lifted as HE lifts you into realms of hopefulness and joy, bes worth seeking His path on it.

... as the Amplified Bible puts it, Love does not insist on its own rights or its own way, and pays no attention to a suffered wrong. Actually it does not state love pays NO attention to a suffered wrong. It states it keeps no record of wrongs. To pay NO attention to a situation though can be detrimental for a relationship ... the RIGHT KIND of attention needs to be paid, that of resolving the problem together so the relationship can be better for it. Love does not advocate "ostriching".

[probinson]

Yes, indeed He does!! (Trusting in Him for that anyway) -- and even before He does, the RELIEF ALONE, having that heavy yoke of soul-corroding MISERY lifted as HE lifts you into realms of hopefulness and joy, bes worth seeking His path on it.

Actually it does not state love pays NO attention to a suffered wrong. It states it keeps no record of wrongs. To pay NO attention to a situation though can be detrimental for a relationship ... the RIGHT KIND of attention needs to be paid, that of resolving the problem together so the relationship can be better for it. Love does not advocate "ostriching".
We're meandering a bit from the OP (but since it's my topic.. ;)), but the Amplified Bible states this;
1 Corinthians 13:5 (AMP)
It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God's love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].
...which actually is the same thing as keeping no record of it.

Jesus shows us this in His relationship with Judas. Jesus hardly blinked an eye when Judas betrayed Him. It didn't phase Him one bit. Just imagine how we'd react to Judas' betrayal!

We've got a long way to go... :cool:

[map4]

Yep ... been there, done that, got the tee shirt, gave the seminars. ^_^ Not the alcohol or the husband, but the whole lashing out in bitterness thing. Still very much a thorn to wrestle for daimonizomai as it has been dealt some incredibly outrageous levels of very personal and direct pain and injustice by humans in its lifetime, or at least it feels that way in proportion to its native intelligence and ability to keenly penetrate facades -- often it thinks the less intelligent, more shallow and unaware types must be far happier that way for the simple fact that what they don't perceive accurately will whizz past their ears rather than sticking in their hearts as barbs ... that kind of oblivion might actually be nice .... not sure what the price would be for it though. To be continually made a fool would be horrible, but perhaps not so much as seeing through it every time others stupidly attempt it.

Got a very VERY VERY painful personal situation going on right now that resembles this, with one who used to be a close friend but now bes estranged. Moriah would be like you, with its friend being like your husband, in this parallel situation. This bes the crux of it exactly -- she has forgotten who Moriah truly bes and what causes certain matters and -- Moriah speculates -- after laboring long and hard to earn that level of trust found it too difficult to bear and endure what it means to have daimonizomai feel safe enough with you to let the necessary spiritual warfare spill out into the emotional and relational level. She mistook this for being abused and unappreciated and began to see personal attack and personal offense in everything. :( :cry: so after promising never to forsake or abandon daimonizomai she resort to judging it falsely from those things and abandons it anyway. This has caused more pain, upheaval, and severe damage than even its own captors could inflict, and done more to damage its efforts to find freedom than anything they could come up with, and it has spun out with the desperation of NEEDING her to know the severity of this impact, NOT to lash back or hurt her over it but so she will realize the wrongness of it and turn back. But it bes futile because she remains convinced of the lies They have always sought to sell anyone who gets too close so as to pose a threat to Their longstanding and comfortable dominion. :cry:

Anyway -- it did not mean to spill its guts here -- just wanted to share that it could relate to what you bes saying, and how it wishes its estranged precious one could see what you have come to see in this. :cry:


Yeah, but see, you STARTED from a position of wrongness and then CAME to this... into this awareness you now have ... you could not help how you felt/perceived before; it bes your natural reaction or whatever that you had to "learn better about" from God and thus having seen what He showed you, you make conscious selection of that over your previous interpretation of things and conscious effort to live the light you have seen. BUT in Moriah's situation its estranged precious one BEGAN with this clarity and awareness KNOWING the truth of the matter from God and then ENDED UP turning aside from the truth and yielding to the lies AFTER having known better. :cry:
There bes NO remedying THAT ... NONE. :cry:

Moriah, don't ever feel bad about 'spilling your guts'. We need to do that sometimes.
I have shared things in the past two days here that I haven't shared with many people. And it feels good :). We need each other.

Things have gotten better but I still "blow it" sometimes. Even knowing what God has showed me. When I do that I go crawling into My Daddy's arms and He gives me His grace and mercy. And His love.

All I know to tell you is to keep doing what you know to do. Keep leaning on Him and His forgiveness for you and your friend. I can't tell you that your relationship with your friend will be healed. But I can tell you that He will heal you...your hurt. He did it for me and I know He will do it for you.
He continues to do it for me. But I have to give it to Him first then let Him do His wonderful healing work in me.

[probinson]

We need each other.

Sanctus Real has an awesome song you just reminded me of..

♪♬ "Oh oh, we need each other..." ♪♬

[LeadWorship]

These icons don't help either. Anyone with a WOF icon posting in certain forums on this site is just asking for it, sorry to say.

Sometimes it's not just "certain" forums, but any forum other than the "WoF Specific" forum lol.

[Tamara224]

From your spam post:
There may be others besides Moriah who recognize the attempt to pre-emptively configure others' perceptions by putting forth this meme. Moriah terms this "social engineering". By placing a specific coloring and characterization of something "out there" and making a good case for it (usually based on the fact that in SOME cases yes, it indeed reflects the reality of the situation, but not in ALL) one clearly hopes to "stack the deck" in terms of human perception concerning any and all future discourse on the matter, thus saving oneself the trouble of having to actually meet and answer legitimate challenges to one's own perspective, position or stance on a matter. If all such challenges can be pre-emptively negated through socially-engineered automatic invalidation, no further need to answer them exists.

This, too, alas, proves itself the product of bitterness in that it seeks to deny authentic voice to those who disagree with whatever position or stance the one engaging in this social engineering takes, and thus pre-program others to automatically assess any such disagreement in this fashion and dismiss any validity it might contain.

I agree and I've noticed that too, but I never could think of the right words to say it in. Well done.

[Tamara224]

People who say they have been "burned" by WoF tend to take a much more vehement stance against it. (Duh.)

I believe that's what you call "projection". IOW, when you see the "WoF" doctrines, or anything that remotely resembles it, it causes you to revolt. You don't actually hear what is said, and you continue to project your bad experience into everything that everyone says.

Actually, projection is when you attribute your own attitudes, thoughts, motives onto others.

A liar suspects others of lying. A thief suspects others of stealing. An adulterer thinks everyone cheats. A bitter person thinks everyone else is motivated by bitterness...
Common definitions (Wikipedia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection)


"Projection is the opposite defense mechanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_mechanism) to identification. We project our own unpleasant feelings onto someone else and blame them for having thoughts that we really have."
"A defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to other people impulses and traits that he himself has but cannot accept. It is especially likely to occur when the person lacks insight into his own impulses and traits."
"Attributing one's own undesirable traits to other people or agencies."
"The individual perceives in others the motive he denies having himself. Thus the cheat is sure that everyone else is dishonest."
"People attribute their own undesirable traits onto others."
"An individual who possesses malicious characteristics, but who is unwilling to perceive himself as an antagonist, convinces himself that his opponent feels and would act the same way."

[probinson]

Actually, projection is when you attribute your own attitudes, thoughts, motives onto others.

A liar suspects others of lying. A thief suspects others of stealing. An adulterer thinks everyone cheats. A bitter person thinks everyone else is motivated by bitterness...
Common definitions (Wikipedia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection)


"Projection is the opposite defense mechanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_mechanism) to identification. We project our own unpleasant feelings onto someone else and blame them for having thoughts that we really have."
"A defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to other people impulses and traits that he himself has but cannot accept. It is especially likely to occur when the person lacks insight into his own impulses and traits."
"Attributing one's own undesirable traits to other people or agencies."
"The individual perceives in others the motive he denies having himself. Thus the cheat is sure that everyone else is dishonest."
"People attribute their own undesirable traits onto others."
"An individual who possesses malicious characteristics, but who is unwilling to perceive himself as an antagonist, convinces himself that his opponent feels and would act the same way."

Intriguing...

So a person who desires control and authority thinks everyone else is motivated by the desire for control and authority.

Perhaps we could come up with a slogan for APA;
Putting an end to legitimate discussion for centuries
;)

In any event, it would seem that I've chosen the wrong psychological term for the topic of my thread. Abreaction seems a bit closer, but still doesn't seem quite right either.

To avoid any more confusion, are there any closet psychotherapists out there have a term for when you read into a statement something that isn't there because of past experiences?

[pdudgeon]

To avoid any more confusion, are there any closet psychotherapists out there have a term for when you read into a statement something that isn't there because of past experiences?


i think the term you are looking for is 'conditioned response'.

[JimfromOhio]

When people start reasoning by thinking psychological terminology, which is the two-nature terminology, this leads to heresy. ^_^

[ImmersionX]

So, I've been lurking in the shadows of the WOF debates for a few days (somewhat), reading posts, and I've noticed something (from a WoF perspective. I'm sure the non-WoF could make the same observations...)

I'm using "WoF" topics as the example, since there are eleventy-billion threads in this debate section on these topics, but it can happen with anything.

People who say they have been "burned" by WoF tend to take a much more vehement stance against it. (Duh.)

I believe that's what you call "projection". IOW, when you see the "WoF" doctrines, or anything that remotely resembles it, it causes you to revolt. You don't actually hear what is said, and you continue to project your bad experience into everything that everyone says.

So for example, someone carrying the WOF icon says something like "God wants you to be prosperous", and the people that have had bad WoF experiences will automatically respond with "God isn't here to give you a mansion and a yacht". Or someone says, "God wants to heal you", and it conjures up past memories of how some well-meaning, foolish WoF person hurt you or a loved one with their ill-timed, un-compassionate words, and you no longer objectively hear what is said.

For me, it's the complete opposite. I had well-meaning, non-WoF people tell me that it wasn't God's will for me to be free of allergies. But I chose not to believe that. I chose to believe that not only could God heal, but that He would heal me, simply because of His Love for me. So now when I hear people say "It might not be God's will to heal you", I think back to those well-meaning Christians who tried to incorrectly tell me that it might not God's will for me to be free of allergies, and I tend to project that into my responses.

I submit to you that NONE of us will make any progress in these debates until we allow God to remove those roots of bitterness that exist in us and stop projecting our hurts. Worse yet, the Bible tells us that not only will those roots defile us, but they will defile many around us.

The bottom line is, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. I have seen NO ONE here preaching "another gospel", as I've heard some people say.

In any event, those are just some of my random thoughts. Feel free to add your random thoughts. :cool:

I was never WoF, so it's irrelevant to me but I can't resist. Unfortunately WoF is definately associated with the Copelands and the lot of liers who invented the doctrines of prosperity gospel and health/wealth, the little gods doctrine, and many many more.(NO matter what people here claim!)

So the entire movement can go the way of the gnostics of yore.

Peace.

[charityagape]

I was never WoF, so it's irrelevant to me but I can't resist. Unfortunately WoF is definately associated with the Copelands and the lot of liers who invented the doctrines of prosperity gospel and health/wealth, the little gods doctrine, and many many more.(NO matter what people here claim!)

So the entire movement can go the way of the gnostics of yore.

Peace.


Well bless you too.

[probinson]

I was never WoF, so it's irrelevant to me but I can't resist. Unfortunately WoF is definately associated with the Copelands and the lot of liers who invented the doctrines of prosperity gospel and health/wealth, the little gods doctrine, and many many more.(NO matter what people here claim!)

So the entire movement can go the way of the gnostics of yore.

Peace.
You, by your own admission, have NEVER BEEN WoF, and yet here you are, trying to tell me, someone who has been in WoF circles almost my whole life, that you understand WoF better than I do by your statement of no matter what people (I presume like myself) claim...

Amazing.

I've seen you post in other threads that you're Baptist. Myself? I've never even been to a Baprist church. So I don't presume to know what it is you believe and teach in the Baptist church. I've heard and read things, both good and bad about Baptists, but because you are my brother in Christ, rather than automatically lump you in with the bad that I've heard, if I was interested in finding out what you believe, I would ask YOU.

[Tamara224]

You, by your own admission, have NEVER BEEN WoF, and yet here you are, trying to tell me, someone who has been in WoF circles almost my whole life, that you understand WoF better than I do by your statement of no matter what people (I presume like myself) claim...

Amazing.

I've seen you post in other threads that you're Baptist. Myself? I've never even been to a Baprist church. So I don't presume to know what it is you believe and teach in the Baptist church. I've heard and read things, both good and bad about Baptists, but because you are my brother in Christ, rather than automatically lump you in with the bad that I've heard, if I was interested in finding out what you believe, I would ask YOU.


:D That's funny, Pete.

If we don't like WoF because we have experience with WoF then we're abreacting (or projecting or whatever you want to call it) because of bad experiences that cloud our judgment.

If we don't like WoF for another reason without ever having been WoF, then it's because we lack experience with WoF.

You might as well stick your fingers in your ears because it's obvious you're going to find a reason, ANY reason, not to listen whenever anyone points out anything wrong with WoF.

[probinson]

:D That's funny, Pete.

If we don't like WoF because we have experience with WoF then we're abreacting (or projecting or whatever you want to call it) because of bad experiences that cloud our judgment.

If we don't like WoF for another reason without ever having been WoF, then it's because we lack experience with WoF.

You might as well stick your fingers in your ears because it's obvious you're going to find a reason, ANY reason, not to listen whenever anyone points out anything wrong with WoF.
OK. You're obviously right. Clearly the people who have had limited experience in WoF years ago and the people who just plain don't like it are far more qualified to tell us all about what is wrong with WoF than those of us that actually believe it. http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h128/petesarah/Smilies/rolleyes.gif

FTR, I do listen to sincere people who have genuine concerns, regardless of what they believe, and some of them have made me re-examine things that I believe.

Now, I'll wait for you to come back and give me some condescending response as to how I'm not qualifed to decide for myself who is sincere.

:cool:

[Leimeng]

~ So is anybody up the participating the real solution to the issue (as posted on other threads)? Or do we just want to continue arguing?
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~

[charityagape]

There's a solution?

[probinson]

Well, sure there is!

We need to all ask God to purge anything that is not of Him.

We need to all ask God to reveal and heal any wounds in us.

Not many people want to do that, because it means letting go of offenses, not holding grudges, keeping no record of wrongs, forgiving, being ever-ready to believe the best of people.

Loving.

[pdudgeon]

agreeing with you, Pete. this happens in a number of topics or experiences, not just with WOF. If it didn't we could not account for our like or dislike of various foods, for instance.

for example we could have a wonderful discussion on liking spinnach or liver.
Some people like them while others don't.
but liking or not liking doesn't change the nutritional value of either food.;)

and so it is with God's word. believe and apply it, and gain the spiritual benefits from doing so, or else don't. but whichever a person chooses does not change the spiritual benefits of God's word.

[GrapeGirl]

There's a solution?



Yes! The redneck solution: Shoot 'em all and let God sort 'em out!


*Disclaimer...... you should not take this seriously. I am me. You should all know me by now. I would never dream of killing anyone (besides my mother, the Anti-Christ......JOKE!).

[map4]

Yes! The redneck solution: Shoot 'em all and let God sort 'em out!


*Disclaimer...... you should not take this seriously. I am me. You should all know me by now. I would never dream of killing anyone (besides my mother, the Anti-Christ......JOKE!).


oh no!! pinetrees gonna come on here with pictures of his guns :D

[charityagape]

Yes! The redneck solution: Shoot 'em all and let God sort 'em out!


*Disclaimer...... you should not take this seriously. I am me. You should all know me by now. I would never dream of killing anyone (besides my mother, the Anti-Christ......JOKE!).


Actually, that's a good idea, then everyone would know that I'm right.;)

[TheBloodOfJesus]

:D That's funny, Pete.

If we don't like WoF because we have experience with WoF then we're abreacting (or projecting or whatever you want to call it) because of bad experiences that cloud our judgment.

If we don't like WoF for another reason without ever having been WoF, then it's because we lack experience with WoF.

You might as well stick your fingers in your ears because it's obvious you're going to find a reason, ANY reason, not to listen whenever anyone points out anything wrong with WoF.

All I know is that those who claim to be "ex-WoF" do not show it by their knowledge. Those who have never been WoF can only relate the heresy hunter opinions of it. But those who KNOW what WoF teaches all become WoF... and remain WoF!

[Leimeng]

All I know is that those who claim to be "ex-WoF" do not show it by their knowledge. Those who have never been WoF can only relate the heresy hunter opinions of it. But those who KNOW what WoF teaches all become WoF... and remain WoF!

~ I prefer to be a Christian. Where does that put me? It is almost funny, I am a full gospel type with a lot of liking for Copeland & Hagin, but I also have spent 11 years in a southern baptist church. So I don't like ICONs. The Baptists dont like me to post in their section because I dont have a Baptist Icon and the WOF forum does not like me posting in their column because I dont have a WOF Icon. Of course I was raised United Methodist but I cant post there because I dont sport their Icon, and even though I am very conservative theologically, politically, economically, socially etc, the Conservative forum has a bit of an issue with me as well...
~ Go figure...
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~