Since this could be debatable, I will post here........

[NewSong]

Hypothetically of course........

How come you can have an emotion of anger so strong that you think it will destroy everything and anything and you just way for someone to call the devil out if there is such a thing but when they come by and pray for you, the anger never shows and is never dealt with God. Now if that anger is that ungodly shouldn't someone be praying for it if they truly are a discerning part of the ministry team?

[JimfromOhio]

Interesting question. Subscribing.

[probinson]

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. Could you clarify what you're asking?

[NewSong]

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. Could you clarify what you're asking?


Say a person who has rage constantly goes to a service where there is "the presence of God" and great anointing and the individual is standing in the prayer line to get prayer but it is not dealt with because the ministry team don't want you to tell them anything. They are discerning and walk by and pray for everyone, how come they don't call out that anger and rage and deal with it? Let me know if that wasn't clear either.

[probinson]

Say a person who has rage constantly goes to a service where there is "the presence of God" and great anointing and the individual is standing in the prayer line to get prayer but it is not dealt with because the ministry team don't want you to tell them anything. They are discerning and walk by and pray for everyone, how come they don't call out that anger and rage and deal with it? Let me know if that wasn't clear either.
OK. Thanks for clarifying. I think I understand the question now, but I'll restate it to make sure.

Basically, you're asking why if someone has a problem with anger and they're standing in a prayer line that the minister doesn't deal with that problem.

I'm not sure there's a one-size-fits-all answer to this. It could be that God doesn't want to call that person out in front of everyone. It's generally easier for people to repent when they're not put on the spot and backed into a corner. I think there most certainly are times when someone may get called out and admonished in a prayer line, but I also think that God prefers not to make a public display of disciplining those He loves.

Of course, that's only one possible explanation. Perhaps God was telling the ministry team to deal with the problem, but they didn't want to because they didn't want to offend the person. Of course, that's not a good reason, but I suspect it happens more often than we realize.

I'm reminded of a time when my pastor called out our current drummer. At the time, he wasn't drumming. And my pastor called him out and said, "You need to be drumming. God has given you a gift and you're not using it for His glory." I remember what I thought when I heard that. I thought to myself, this guy is not going to respond well to that... I was wrong. He stood up, said, "God has been telling me the same thing", came forward, and has been drumming for us ever since. That was almost 5 years ago.

My point is, there is a time for public admonishment, but it's not all the time. In the instance with our drummer, it was just what he needed to confirm what God was dealing with him about already. But if it's just us trying to "fix" something, we may well end up causing more damage than good.

I hope that helps you! :cool:

[Hortysir]

Could it be that the prayer (minister, deacon, whoever) WAS praying for the release of that anger, but the recipient wasn't opening themselves to the Spirit?
I cannot imagine the presence of the Holy Ghost AND anger in me at the same time...

GodBless

[~RENEE~]

My husband has an anger problem. He got confronted like that. It only made him tear into me when we got home. It is something the person needs to repent of. But confrontation could cause more damage.

Does that answer your question?

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Deep anger and rage can be indicative of other things besides something needing "repenting of". It can be indicative of very deep wounding in a person who has been programmed by early experiences to feel completely unsafe to show pain around others and therefore trained to ex-press (press out) their pain in the language that sounds like anger to others, precisely so that they won't feel weak and vulnerable (and thereby feeling at risk for being harmed again) at the same time.

What we see on the OUTWARD APPEARANCE as rage and anger in others can be something very, very different when it comes to the actuality of their heart-feelings prompting the expression. Calling that out as something one needs to repent of upon a person who actually bes victimized by it instead, can be a very cruel and dangerous (for them) thing to do and very damaging to them spiritually as well as emotionally.

Perhaps the ministers sensed a "check" in their spirit from the Holy Spirit with regard to discerning things like this, in which case it might have been appropriate for them to ask if you wanted to make time later for private prayer and counsel. Or it bes quite possible that they just plain did not discern it -- having discernment does not automatically mean one will see EVERYTHING there to see.

[~RENEE~]

Deep anger and rage can be indicative of other things besides something needing "repenting of". It can be indicative of very deep wounding in a person who has been programmed by early experiences to feel completely unsafe to show pain around others and therefore trained to ex-press (press out) their pain in the language that sounds like anger to others, precisely so that they won't feel weak and vulnerable (and thereby feeling at risk for being harmed again) at the same time.

What we see on the OUTWARD APPEARANCE as rage and anger in others can be something very, very different when it comes to the actuality of their heart-feelings prompting the expression. Calling that out as something one needs to repent of upon a person who actually bes victimized by it instead, can be a very cruel and dangerous (for them) thing to do and very damaging to them spiritually as well as emotionally.

Perhaps the ministers sensed a "check" in their spirit from the Holy Spirit with regard to discerning things like this, in which case it might have been appropriate for them to ask if you wanted to make time later for private prayer and counsel. Or it bes quite possible that they just plain did not discern it -- having discernment does not automatically mean one will see EVERYTHING there to see.OK Moriah if that is the case then what should one in my position do. I do know of something that could possibly fit in that catigory. I will not post it. If you need to know to advice in this I will pm you.

[NewSong]

Deep anger and rage can be indicative of other things besides something needing "repenting of". It can be indicative of very deep wounding in a person who has been programmed by early experiences to feel completely unsafe to show pain around others and therefore trained to ex-press (press out) their pain in the language that sounds like anger to others, precisely so that they won't feel weak and vulnerable (and thereby feeling at risk for being harmed again) at the same time.

What we see on the OUTWARD APPEARANCE as rage and anger in others can be something very, very different when it comes to the actuality of their heart-feelings prompting the expression. Calling that out as something one needs to repent of upon a person who actually bes victimized by it instead, can be a very cruel and dangerous (for them) thing to do and very damaging to them spiritually as well as emotionally.

Perhaps the ministers sensed a "check" in their spirit from the Holy Spirit with regard to discerning things like this, in which case it might have been appropriate for them to ask if you wanted to make time later for private prayer and counsel. Or it bes quite possible that they just plain did not discern it -- having discernment does not automatically mean one will see EVERYTHING there to see.

Moriah, you are so right here! I certainly agree here and believe you hit the nail right on the head. Thank you for your sensitive and tender post. It is the one that I suspect that is right on! The others may be too but for this situation. Thank you!

[NewSong]

My husband has an anger problem. He got confronted like that. It only made him tear into me when we got home. It is something the person needs to repent of. But confrontation could cause more damage.

Does that answer your question?

Renee,
Thank you for sharing. I agree that confrontation could cause more damage to an individual. I am sorry your husband tore into you. Anger and Rage is a very sad issue and hurts so many folks. :hug:'s

[NewSong]

OK. Thanks for clarifying. I think I understand the question now, but I'll restate it to make sure.

Basically, you're asking why if someone has a problem with anger and they're standing in a prayer line that the minister doesn't deal with that problem.

I'm not sure there's a one-size-fits-all answer to this. It could be that God doesn't want to call that person out in front of everyone. It's generally easier for people to repent when they're not put on the spot and backed into a corner. I think there most certainly are times when someone may get called out and admonished in a prayer line, but I also think that God prefers not to make a public display of disciplining those He loves.

Of course, that's only one possible explanation. Perhaps God was telling the ministry team to deal with the problem, but they didn't want to because they didn't want to offend the person. Of course, that's not a good reason, but I suspect it happens more often than we realize.

I'm reminded of a time when my pastor called out our current drummer. At the time, he wasn't drumming. And my pastor called him out and said, "You need to be drumming. God has given you a gift and you're not using it for His glory." I remember what I thought when I heard that. I thought to myself, this guy is not going to respond well to that... I was wrong. He stood up, said, "God has been telling me the same thing", came forward, and has been drumming for us ever since. That was almost 5 years ago.

My point is, there is a time for public admonishment, but it's not all the time. In the instance with our drummer, it was just what he needed to confirm what God was dealing with him about already. But if it's just us trying to "fix" something, we may well end up causing more damage than good.

I hope that helps you! :cool:

Is it discipline that would be administered or freedom from some issue? I thank you for taking the time to post. I guess I just wonder why somethings are never dealt with and anger/rage is one of them. Thank you for your post. Good post~!

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

OK Moriah if that is the case then what should one in my position do. I do know of something that could possibly fit in that catigory. I will not post it. If you need to know to advice in this I will pm you.
Hon it does not mean to say that bes the case with your husband. Moriah does not know him personally and would have no way of knowing whether that bes the matter with him or not. It just wanted to share the information in general to broaden people's minds concerning dealing with people who seem to have anger all the time, that in some cases it might not be as it appears. Sorry if that came across in a way that frustrated you or made you feel criticized; it did not intend that. :hug:

But if you think this might be the case with him and you want to talk further? Yes, feel free to PM.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Moriah, you are so right here! I certainly agree here and believe you hit the nail right on the head. Thank you for your sensitive and tender post. It is the one that I suspect that is right on! The others may be too but for this situation. Thank you!

Very glad to be of any help it can. :thumbsup:

[~RENEE~]

Sorry if that came across in a way that frustrated you or made you feel criticized; it did not intend that. :hug: No dear you didn't make me feel that way at all.

[Elijah2]

I don't fully understand your question, but first off we need to understand "ANGER".

What is it?

Anger can be caused from wrongs, pain, grief, or sorrow. Anger is caused by many things.

His Word says not to let the sun go down on anger.

Anger festers into bitterness, then into hatred, then possibly into murder.

Anger without a cause is judged.

If a Ministry team walks by and ignores a person, then they are not discerning, and if they are discerning, they should still come to the person and offer prayer and counselling for it, because it's a heart matter and it needs healing, inner healing.

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

[The Lord is my banner]

Loved Moriah's reply.

I'd bear in mind that anger usually grows out of fear. Therefore the better way to address anger is to cut out the root of fear. Anger would wither after that because nothing would be feeding it.

Probably not that many ministry teams realise this, so maybe God doesn't tell them to pray for people with anger because they could make it worse?

There's a prickly bramble in my garden that keeps growing. I keep chopping it off at ground level, but when it grows back it's stronger and has multiple stems.
I need to get some chemical root killer.

Ministries that understand root issues are still too rare. Send more healers Lord!

[GreatistheLord]

It could just be that the person is not ready to receive ministry for something. Then it would actually do more harm than good. If we are not willing to repent, I dont think the Holy spirit will prompt the minister, apart from maybe to warn them.

[PETE_]

I think this is a great obsevation New Song, especially since so many believe that illness is tied to sin. The illness or handicap are called out and healed but the sin itself is not dealt with. If the sin is the basic cause of the disease, how is one healed without addressing the source?

[probinson]

Is it discipline that would be administered or freedom from some issue?
Well, it could be (and probably usually is) both.

Some of the posts here have spoken about dealing with the core issue, which is very true. When someone is responding in anger, it's probably really out of hurt or fear. But in order to get rid of those things, one must be willing to allow God to purge those things and/or heal the past hurts and wounds that cause the anger. To do so will seem painful at first, likely very much so, but in the end will produce amazing results and true freedom.

This is the discipline that God uses. So at the time, it will seem painful, but once it's over, the freedom that you mentioned comes.

I thank you for taking the time to post. I guess I just wonder why somethings are never dealt with and anger/rage is one of them. Thank you for your post. Good post~!
I think it's because to do what people in this thread are suggesting, dealing with root issues, one has to really Love someone. It's going to take time, coming along side them and bearing their burden in Love, until they are strong enough or until we can help them (and they'll let us) cast that care on Jesus.

It's not likely that a moment in a prayer line is going to change anything. It takes time and relationship to get to the root.

[JimfromOhio]

I have been thinking about this and looked in the scriptures. The opposite of the "fruit of the spirit" is cultivating bitterness, resentment, and anger in our hearts.

When confronting an angry person, to protect against accusations of bias, favoritism, or bitterness, it is necessary that we take one or two others who can objectively witness the second confrontation and confirm that there was a heart of repentance, or one of indifference or rejection. IN PRIVATE (NOT in public). We have to remember that the MAIN purpose of discipline is restoration.

Repentance can only happen after confrontation and the Holy Spirit's work in an angry Christian's heart.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

No dear you didn't make me feel that way at all.
Good! :hug:

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

There's a prickly bramble in my garden that keeps growing. I keep chopping it off at ground level, but when it grows back it's stronger and has multiple stems.
I need to get some chemical root killer.

Ministries that understand root issues are still too rare. Send more healers Lord!

It could just be that the person is not ready to receive ministry for something. Then it would actually do more harm than good. If we are not willing to repent, I dont think the Holy spirit will prompt the minister, apart from maybe to warn them.

Moriah thinks this gets back to Sue's point about dealing with the root.

Anger that has arisen from someone dealing offense, for example, or from a lifetime of accumulated offenses dealt callousedly without any regard (or seeming and feeling that way because others do not make things right after wronging you) needs root dissolving (healing of the wound) rather than cutting off the trunk or stems (trying to chop out the anger by saying "it's wrong to feel that, you need to forgive now"). Denying what sprouted the anger weed in the first place, and not dealing with the root cause, will only set one up for a futility cycle going around and around with it. This bes why therapists always aim for achieving some form of closure in relationships that have stagnated, died, or been circumstantially terminated by bad interactive patterns.

Why do we have this interactive, dynamic system of confession and repentance? Precisely because those elements sweeten and smooth the path for forgiveness to flow. Have you ever tried to forgive someone who refuses to even acknowledge they have wronged you? It quite literally cannot be done. Sure, you may respond to them from an attitude and intent of forgiveness in your heart, but you cannot GIVE forgiveness to someone who does not confess their wrong and repent of it. Thus while it still of course benefits your heart to forgive, if the other party to the equation refuses to recognize they have done you any harm or ill at all, and instead holds the charge on you that you have simply been unreasonable or oversensitive or whatever other dismissive "ostriching" and "fig leafing" accusatory spin device seems expedient at the time, you cannot truly GIVE them your forgiveness for they cannot, in such a condition, RECEIVE it. One must be cognizant of wrongdoing and desirous to avoid repeating it in order for forgiveness to transpire as a dynamic, interactive element bringing restoration and renewal into a relationship!

Scripture (Jesus in fact) states that those forgiven much, love much. And it takes much love TO forgive. When our hearts get healed, bitter roots get dissolved, and angry sour weeds diminish and cease to spring forth anew. Then, under the EASY and LIGHT yoke of Christ's JOY and HOPE, forgiveness flows soooo freely and easily, effortlessly, requiring nothing but the willingness for it!! Whereas trying to push it past a ground (heart) marinated in bitter waters choked with thorns of anger and plagued by thoughts of payback or "lesson teaching" will only result in it, too, being embittered and choked before it can really take root.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Some of the posts here have spoken about dealing with the core issue, which is very true. When someone is responding in anger, it's probably really out of hurt or fear. But in order to get rid of those things, one must be willing to allow God to purge those things and/or heal the past hurts and wounds that cause the anger. To do so will seem painful at first, likely very much so, but in the end will produce amazing results and true freedom.
One great thing about pain -- it bes naturally designed to cause us to get sick and tired of it REALLY fast. :thumbsup:

I think it's because to do what people in this thread are suggesting, dealing with root issues, one has to really Love someone. It's going to take time, coming along side them and bearing their burden in Love, until they are strong enough or until we can help them (and they'll let us) cast that care on Jesus.

It's not likely that a moment in a prayer line is going to change anything. It takes time and relationship to get to the root.Yes. :thumbsup: Good answer. Though in situations where this close careful work has already begun for people with their spouses, friends, spiritual mentors, etc., an insightful word spoken in season during prayer time can be like an extra wonderful balm and encouragement to that process and a confirmation of it, like a gentle nod from God saying "good job, keep going, I am with you!"

[Jimbeaux]

Hypothetically of course........

How come you can have an emotion of anger so strong that you think it will destroy everything and anything and you just way for someone to call the devil out if there is such a thing but when they come by and pray for you, the anger never shows and is never dealt with God. Now if that anger is that ungodly shouldn't someone be praying for it if they truly are a discerning part of the ministry team?

Here’s my 2¢ …

The charismata does not operated at our will. The Apostle tells us this in 1 Corinthians 12:
7 A spiritual gift is given to each of us so we can help each other. 8 To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice; to another the same Spirit gives a message of special knowledge. 9 The same Spirit gives great faith to another, and to someone else the one Spirit gives the gift of healing. 10 He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to discern whether a message is from the Spirit of God or from another spirit. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages, while another is given the ability to interpret what is being said. 11 It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.
The Holy Spirit determines to whom and when a revelation will be given. If a revelation (discernment) is needed and will be effectual at any moment the Spirit will reveal that to someone. If not, He won’t. We cannot discern into the spirit world at will, no matter how much we would like (or want others) to believe.

So, be patient. If anger/rage is inside you but you will not resolve it at any given moment, the Holy Spirit knows this and will not bother to reveal it to someone. If, on the other hand, you are open (truly open) to ministry in that area, He will. This is the Spirit’s business, not ours. Ourts is to be submissive to what the Spirit is doing at any given moment—and it may not be what we think or hope.


~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[JimfromOhio]

Here’s my 2¢ …

The charismata does not operated at our will. The Apostle tells us this in 1 Corinthians 12:
7 A spiritual gift is given to each of us so we can help each other. 8 To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice; to another the same Spirit gives a message of special knowledge. 9 The same Spirit gives great faith to another, and to someone else the one Spirit gives the gift of healing. 10 He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to discern whether a message is from the Spirit of God or from another spirit. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages, while another is given the ability to interpret what is being said. 11 It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.
The Holy Spirit determines to whom and when a revelation will be given. If a revelation (discernment) is needed and will be effectual at any moment the Spirit will reveal that to someone. If not, He won’t. We cannot discern into the spirit world at will, no matter how much we would like (or want others) to believe.

So, be patient. If anger/rage is inside you but you will not resolve it at any given moment, the Holy Spirit knows this and will not bother to reveal it to someone. If, on the other hand, you are open (truly open) to ministry in that area, He will. This is the Spirit’s business, not ours. Ourts is to be submissive to what the Spirit is doing at any given moment—and it may not be what we think or hope.


~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.



~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

I agree.

I had at least two threads talking specifically about charisma (divine grace gifts) but as predicted, the threads are not busy. :P