Faith's source......................

[JimfromOhio]

Posting this again from "Is Sickness Suffering". I want to ask each WOFers to explain WOF's perspective on GRACE so that I can understand how your faith really works. Is your faith's power comes from YOU or God's grace.

Romans 5:15
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. (i.e. works of faith)

Ephesians 3:7
I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of His power.

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

2 Corinthians 12:9
"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

MOST IMPORTANT:1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

PLEASE explain how God's GRACE is not powerful enough for every believer as explained in Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with Him through your faith in the power of God (not ourselves), who raised Him from the dead. When you are filled with the Holy Spirit, then Jesus through His GRACE just flows out of you. In Corinthians, God gives us His GRACE to bear or endure which in greek, hupophero That it literally means to "get under it and carry it." Grace gets under us and carry our in ALL circumstances including those who are NOT HEALED.

From what I am seeing, WOF faith are encouraging people are to work on THEIR FAITH in order to "get what they want". They are taught to work on their faith without mentioning (much) about God's grace.

Corrie ten Boom's faith was an example. How did Corrie's faith survive through her TOUGHEST times? She said: "Trying to do the Lord's work in your own strength is the most confusing, exhausting, and tedious of all work. But when you are filled with the Holy Spirit, then the ministry of Jesus just flows out of you."

[~RENEE~]

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

[JimfromOhio]

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
Yes, I KNOW.

Jesus said in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.

[Optimax]

Posting this again from "Is Sickness Suffering". I want to ask each WOFers to explain WOF's perspective on GRACE so that I can understand how your faith really works. Is your faith's power comes from YOU or God's grace.



Faith's "power" has only one source. That is the Word of God.

Your next question is "How do you release the power from the word so that it does something"?

[Faithful Love]

My faith source? If God said it, I believe it!

He is simple that way.

[JimfromOhio]

Faith's "power" has only one source. That is the Word of God.

Your next question is "How do you release the power from the word so that it does something"?

My next question is "Who wrote the Word of God?"












Hint: All scripture is inspired by God.....Holy Spirit who is the Author of the Bible. Jesus said in John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

Then you can ask how the Holy Spirit work in our lives through the Word of God and through this sinful nature? The answer would be GRACE.

Now the question becomes... "How does GRACE work in us?"

[pinetree]

Faith's "power" has only one source. That is the Word of God.

Your next question is "How do you release the power from the word so that it does something"?
ya know bro,I have heard that phrase alot over the years..

could you please explain how one releases faith? Thank you.

[JimfromOhio]

My faith source? If God said it, I believe it!

He is simple that way.

You mean , you believed on your own or by the power of the Holy Spirit that gave you life through grace?

[Optimax]

My next question is "Who wrote the Word of God?"












Hint: All scripture is inspired by God.....Holy Spirit who is the Author of the Bible. Jesus said in John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

Then you can ask how the Holy Spirit work in our lives through the Word of God and through this sinful nature? The answer would be GRACE.

Now the question becomes... "How does GRACE work in us?"

I do not believe that grace is "in" us. According to this scripture it is all around us waiting for us to receive or access it.

God's grace can come into a persons life from what I can see in scripture two ways.

1. By Gods mercy.
2. Through the faith that God gave us.

Ro 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace ;
KJV

Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
KJV

Ro 5:2

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
KJV

[Optimax]

ya know bro,I have heard that phrase alot over the years..

could you please explain how one releases faith? Thank you.

The answer is that faith is released by words.

That is the same way Jesus released His faith.

That is the same way God released His faith.

The words that we speak to release faith is God's Word spoken out of our mouth.

[pinetree]

Romans 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=1&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
Romans 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=4&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
Romans 5:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=5&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God
Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
Romans 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.
2 Corinthians 8:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=8&verse=7&version=31&context=verse)
But just as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us —see that you also excel in this grace of giving.
Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Colossians 1:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=1&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ at Colosse: Grace and peace to you from God our Father.

1 Timothy 1:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
To Timothy my true son in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Timothy 1:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&verse=12&version=31&context=verse)
[ The Lord's Grace to Paul ] I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service.
1 Timothy 1:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&verse=14&version=31&context=verse)
The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 6:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=6&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.
Titus 1:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=63&chapter=1&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
Titus 3:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=63&chapter=3&verse=15&version=31&context=verse)
Everyone with me sends you greetings. Greet those who love us in the faith. Grace be with you all.
1 Peter 4:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=4&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.
1 Peter 5:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=5&verse=12&version=31&context=verse)
[ Final Greetings ] With the help of Silas, whom I regard as a faithful brother, I have written to you briefly, encouraging you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand fast in it.
Revelation 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=1&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
ya know Jim...You have come to the nucleus of the issue!:thumbsup:

We all believe in faith,and miracles...

But why all the debate!?

We do not oppose the wof types for the heck of it..:o:D

It is the absence of grace! Look how interconnected faith is with grace in the above verses. We never hear about grace,just the faith..

And thats what is missing here.Faith teachings without grace produces self effort,pride,and a burden,which is the very opposite of grace.Grace puts it all on God,and him alone..

Thats why there is opposition to the average wof teaching or sharring,in what ever form.

How can anyone produce faith,but by grace..:)


Acts 20:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=20&verse=32&version=31&context=verse)
"Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

If our wof bros,are serious about ending the contention,they should hear this truth.A confrontation with the other side of the coin..

[JimfromOhio]

I do not believe that grace is "in" us. According to this scripture it is all around us waiting for us to receive or access it.

God's grace can come into a persons life from what I can see in scripture two ways.

1. By Gods mercy.
2. Through the faith that God gave us.

Ro 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace ;
KJV

Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
KJV

Ro 5:2

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
KJV

It appears that you didn't really read my OP clearly. I referred most of the verses that GRACE that are part of our lives. 1 Corinthians 15:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=10&version=31&context=verse) But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. Ephesians 3:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=3&verse=7&version=31&context=verse) I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power. Ephesians 4:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=7&version=31&context=verse) But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. Philippians 4:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=4&verse=23&version=31&context=verse) The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. 2 Timothy 2:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=2&verse=1&version=31&context=verse) be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

If CHRIST is in US, then GRACE is in US.

[JimfromOhio]

Romans 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=1&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
Romans 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=4&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
Romans 5:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=5&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God
Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
Romans 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.
2 Corinthians 8:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=8&verse=7&version=31&context=verse)
But just as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us —see that you also excel in this grace of giving.
Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Colossians 1:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=1&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ at Colosse: Grace and peace to you from God our Father.

1 Timothy 1:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
To Timothy my true son in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Timothy 1:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&verse=12&version=31&context=verse)
[ The Lord's Grace to Paul ] I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service.
1 Timothy 1:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&verse=14&version=31&context=verse)
The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 6:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=6&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.
Titus 1:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=63&chapter=1&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
Titus 3:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=63&chapter=3&verse=15&version=31&context=verse)
Everyone with me sends you greetings. Greet those who love us in the faith. Grace be with you all.
1 Peter 4:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=4&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.
1 Peter 5:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=5&verse=12&version=31&context=verse)
[ Final Greetings ] With the help of Silas, whom I regard as a faithful brother, I have written to you briefly, encouraging you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand fast in it.
Revelation 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=1&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
ya know Jim...You have come to the nucleus of the issue!:thumbsup:

We all believe in faith,and miracles...

But why all the debate!?

We do not oppose the wof types for the heck of it..:o:D

It is the absence of grace! Look how interconnected faith is with grace in the above verses. We never hear about grace,just the faith..

And thats what is missing here.Faith teachings without grace produces self effort,pride,and a burden,which is the very opposite of grace.Grace puts it all on God,and him alone..

Thats why there is opposition to the average wof teaching or sharring,in what ever form.

How can anyone produce faith,but by grace..:)


Acts 20:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=20&verse=32&version=31&context=verse)
"Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

If our wof bros,are serious about ending the contention,they should hear this truth.A confrontation with the other side of the coin..

When GRACE is mentioned, some are lost for words. :o

[Optimax]

Romans 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=1&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
Romans 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=4&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
Romans 5:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=5&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God
Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
Romans 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.
2 Corinthians 8:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=8&verse=7&version=31&context=verse)
But just as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us —see that you also excel in this grace of giving.
Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Colossians 1:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=1&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ at Colosse: Grace and peace to you from God our Father.
1 Timothy 1:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
To Timothy my true son in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Timothy 1:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&verse=12&version=31&context=verse)
[ The Lord's Grace to Paul ] I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service.

1 Timothy 1:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&verse=14&version=31&context=verse)
The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 6:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=6&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.
Titus 1:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=63&chapter=1&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
Titus 3:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=63&chapter=3&verse=15&version=31&context=verse)
Everyone with me sends you greetings. Greet those who love us in the faith. Grace be with you all.
1 Peter 4:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=4&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.
1 Peter 5:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=5&verse=12&version=31&context=verse)
[ Final Greetings ] With the help of Silas, whom I regard as a faithful brother, I have written to you briefly, encouraging you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand fast in it.
Revelation 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=1&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
ya know Jim...You have come to the nucleus of the issue!:thumbsup:

We all believe in faith,and miracles...

But why all the debate!?

We do not oppose the wof types for the heck of it..:o:D

It is the absence of grace! Look how interconnected faith is with grace in the above verses. We never hear about grace,just the faith..

And thats what is missing here.Faith teachings without grace produces self effort,pride,and a burden,which is the very opposite of grace.Grace puts it all on God,and him alone..

Thats why there is opposition to the average wof teaching or sharring,in what ever form.

How can anyone produce faith,but by grace..:)


Acts 20:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=20&verse=32&version=31&context=verse)
"Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

If our wof bros,are serious about ending the contention,they should hear this truth.A confrontation with the other side of the coin..

What WOFers are using faith for is to access the grace that God has provided. Could be healing, success, or some other grace.

The Grace of God is everything that we can possibly have.

[probinson]

....

PLEASE explain how God's GRACE is not powerful enough for every believer ...
This post makes even less sense here than it did in the other thread.

Why are you asking WoF people to explain how God's grace is not powerful enough, when no WoF people believe that?

So, when did you stop beating your wife?

See how loaded that question is?

Do you really care what WoF people believe? I suspect the answer to that is a resounding "no".

[probinson]

And thats what is missing here.Faith teachings without grace produces self effort,pride,and a burden,which is the very opposite of grace.Grace puts it all on God,and him alone..pinetree, it's not that simple.

What you've just said here is at odds with what Jesus told many people. How many times did Jesus tell people, "your faith has made you whole", or "because of your faith"? How much did Jesus emphasize faith? Why would He do that if our faith had nothing to do with us? Why would Jesus tell us to do something that we were incapable of doing? Why would Jesus chastise people for their lack of faith, if that lack of faith had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with them?

If you're really interested in ending the contention ;), you'll think about those questions.

[JimfromOhio]

This post makes even less sense here than it did in the other thread.

Why are you asking WoF people to explain how God's grace is not powerful enough, when no WoF people believe that?

So, when did you stop beating your wife?

See how loaded that question is?

Do you really care what WoF people believe? I suspect the answer to that is a resounding "no".

Let me aks this:

When a believer is healed, is it that God found favor in a believer's faith at will or is it in God's Will through His grace?

[pinetree]

This post makes even less sense here than it did in the other thread.

Why are you asking WoF people to explain how God's grace is not powerful enough, when no WoF people believe that?

So, when did you stop beating your wife?

See how loaded that question is?

Do you really care what WoF people believe? I suspect the answer to that is a resounding "no".
boy oh boy Pete,look at all these posted verses.
fait runs hand in hand with grace.

lets all talk about it.I think this might be the way to come to a better place.

it is very silly to think Jim has nothing better to do,than to try to put wofers down for no reason ya know.

or are you going to keep acting out this persecution complex?

[pinetree]

pinetree, it's not that simple.

What you've just said here is at odds with what Jesus told many people. How many times did Jesus tell people, "your faith has made you whole", or "because of your faith"? How much did Jesus emphasize faith? Why would He do that if our faith had nothing to do with us? Why would Jesus tell us to do something that we were incapable of doing? Why would Jesus chastise people for their lack of faith, if that lack of faith had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with them?

If you're really interested in ending the contention ;), you'll think about those questions.
I never said faith had nothing to do with it.But we cant omit grace.:)

Look at all the faith and grace scriptures,both words wre there,faith AND grace.

[probinson]

Let me aks this:

When a believer is healed, is it that God found favor in a believer's faith at will or is it in God's Will through His grace?
It could be either.

Why was the woman with the issue of blood healed? She decided and said within herself, if I simply touch the hem of Jesus' garment, I will be healed. When she touched Him, He didn't even know WHO had touched Him, simply that someone had touched Him in faith. His response? "YOUR FAITH has made you whole."

Why was the man at the pool healed? Because Jesus showed grace on the man, stepped over others, and healed Him.

See, I don't have a problem believing God can work either way, but your theology 1) prevents you from seeing that there were many times that Jesus healed in response to someone's faith and 2) causes you to wrongly judge that people are in "pride" by exercising their faith.

[Faithful Love]

You mean , you believed on your own or by the power of the Holy Spirit that gave you life through grace?



:scratch:


I believe on my own with the free will and the brain He gave me.

I believe with the help of the Holy Spirit He gave me.

I believe because He told me anything not of faith is a sin.

I believe because He gave me grace to believe.



He gave you the same free will, the same Holy Spirit, the same faith, and the same grace to believe, but you choose to believe He brings sickness, disease and poverty to you and others. You convolute the scriptures to justify circumstances instead of standing on the Word to change circumstances.

It is all a choice. Some make it, some don't. I am glad I made the choice to believe.

[pinetree]

It could be either.

Why was the woman with the issue of blood healed? She decided and said within herself, if I simply touch the hem of Jesus' garment, I will be healed. When she touched Him, He didn't even know WHO had touched Him, simply that someone had touched Him in faith. His response? "YOUR FAITH has made you whole."

Why was the man at the pool healed? Because Jesus showed grace on the man, stepped over others, and healed Him.

See, I don't have a problem believing God can work either way, but your theology 1) prevents you from seeing that there were many times that Jesus healed in response to someone's faith and 2) causes you to wrongly judge that people are in "pride" by exercising their faith.
pete,if you really read those verses through the eyes of grace,you would understand what we are trying to say.:)
faith comes by grace.

[Faithful Love]

We do not oppose the wof types for the heck of it..:o:D


Yes you do - it is a sport with you and your folks.

You will be held accountable for it someday. I hope you wake up before it is too late --- grace will help you do that!:wave:

[Faithful Love]

pete,if you really read those verses through the eyes of grace,you would understand what we are trying to say.:)
faith comes by grace.


If you would exercise His freely given grace and really read through the eyes of grace you will see what GOD has already said.:thumbsup:

[JimfromOhio]

pinetree, it's not that simple.

What you've just said here is at odds with what Jesus told many people. How many times did Jesus tell people, "your faith has made you whole", or "because of your faith"? How much did Jesus emphasize faith? Why would He do that if our faith had nothing to do with us? Why would Jesus tell us to do something that we were incapable of doing? Why would Jesus chastise people for their lack of faith, if that lack of faith had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with them?

If you're really interested in ending the contention ;), you'll think about those questions.
I have heard this quote many time from WOFers, "You don't have enough faith to be healed. Your lack of faith is hindering God." I do have an issue with the focus of faith becomes faith in the miraculous, rather than faith in the Savior Himself. When He healed, He frequently said, "Your faith has made you well" (Matt. 9:22; Mk. 5:34; 10:52; Lk. 8:48; 17:19; 18:42). All those healings were object lessons on the doctrine of justification by faith alone through Jesus Christ by His GRACE. Who attempt to establish their own righteousness or mix faith with works only without GRACE will fall short of perfection where Christianity stands with the principle of sola fide.

[pinetree]

:scratch:


I believe on my own with the free will and the brain He gave me.

I believe with the help of the Holy Spirit He gave me.

I believe because He told me anything not of faith is a sin.

I believe because He gave me grace to believe.



He gave you the same free will, the same Holy Spirit, the same faith, and the same grace to believe, but you choose to believe He brings sickness, disease and poverty to you and others. You convolute the scriptures to justify circumstances instead of standing on the Word to change circumstances.

It is all a choice. Some make it, some don't. I am glad I made the choice to believe.
he is not choosing,he is observing what God has shown him.

Your very post shows..I I I I I I ,grace is not about I,it is about Him.

[pinetree]

The flesh has a built in revulsion to grace, because if it's all grace then we cannot boast or take any credit. So, instead of receiving grace for our whole lives, we limit it to our initial salvation experience and then construct an elaborate new system which may differ from group to group but basically says "God's power is dependent upon my efforts"(or "my" faith)

The flesh rejoices because it once again can take credit for successes, and so we go merrily along, publicly saying it's all God and secretly relishing our great knowledge.

[probinson]

pete,if you really read those verses through the eyes of grace,you would understand what we are trying to say.:)
faith comes by grace.
Nice. http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h128/petesarah/Smilies/rolleyes.gif

Do you really want to talk about this, or do you just want to pretend that you have some deeper understanding of the scripture? One of my brothers in Christ was accused of gnosticism for that earlier today on another thread... ;)

Jesus said... Let me say that again... JESUS SAID, your faith has made you whole to the woman with the issue of blood. Jesus took no active part in that woman's healing. He didn't even know who had touched Him, only that power had gone out of Him. She acted on her own.

So how does this fit your belief?

I'm willing to discuss this with you and explain my beliefs. Are you?

[probinson]

I have heard this quote many time from WOFers, "You don't have enough faith to be healed. Your lack of faith is hindering God." I do have an issue with the focus of faith becomes faith in the miraculous, rather than faith in the Savior Himself. When He healed, He frequently said, "Your faith has made you well" (Matt. 9:22; Mk. 5:34; 10:52; Lk. 8:48; 17:19; 18:42). All those healings were object lessons on the doctrine of justification by faith alone through Jesus Christ by His GRACE. Who attempt to establish their own righteousness or mix faith with works only without GRACE will fall short of perfection where Christianity stands with the principle of sola fide.
Hey pinetree, are you paying attention?

This did NOTHING to address my questions in the post. Just more random posting.

You still think Jim really cares what WoF people believe? Then I got some ocean-front property for you in Arizona ... ;)

[probinson]

The flesh has a built in revulsion to grace, because if it's all grace then we cannot boast or take any credit. So, instead of receiving grace for our whole lives, we limit it to our initial salvation experience and then construct an elaborate new system which may differ from group to group but basically says "God's power is dependent upon my efforts"(or "my" faith)

The flesh rejoices because it once again can take credit for successes, and so we go merrily along, publicly saying it's all God and secretly relishing our great knowledge.
What you are describing is a false humility, and an amazing hypcorsiy.

Just look at your last post to me. You said this;

pete,if you really read those verses through the eyes of grace,you would understand what we are trying to say.:)
faith comes by grace.
Look at that. You're telling me that you have a great knowledge of grace, and if only I could just see it through the eyes of grace...

Listen to yourself. You're doing the very thing you accuse others of doing, by saying you have a great knowledge of grace.

[pinetree]

pete.the op,as well as my view is about the speration of faith from grace.

can we have faith without grace?

[probinson]

can we have faith without grace?


No.

We wouldn't have anything apart from grace.

[pinetree]

What you are describing is a false humility, and an amazing hypcorsiy.

Just look at your last post to me. You said this;

Look at that. You're telling me that you have a great knowledge of grace, and if only I could just see it through the eyes of grace...

Listen to yourself. You're doing the very thing you accuse others of doing, by saying you have a great knowledge of grace.
Nope,just describing the flesh,yes,MY FLESH HATES GRACE TOO!:D

The op is about seperating the 2.

[pinetree]

No.

We wouldn't have anything apart from grace.
Than if faith comes by grace...

Then we can only have as much faith as grace (god) imparts.
agree?

After all,thats what grace is,it is HIS power.

[probinson]

Than if faith comes by grace...

Then we can only have as much faith as grace (god) imparts.
agree?

After all,thats what grace is,it is HIS power.
God gives us all THE MEASURE of faith;
Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=9&context=verse)
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
What we do with that measure of faith is entirely up to us.

Why would Jesus say to people, "Oh ye of little faith", if it was God who didn't give them enough faith for what they needed? Why would Jesus tell His disciples that they couldn't cast out the demon because of their lack of faith, if it had nothing to do with them?

[JimfromOhio]

It could be either.

Why was the woman with the issue of blood healed? She decided and said within herself, if I simply touch the hem of Jesus' garment, I will be healed. When she touched Him, He didn't even know WHO had touched Him, simply that someone had touched Him in faith. His response? "YOUR FAITH has made you whole."

Why was the man at the pool healed? Because Jesus showed grace on the man, stepped over others, and healed Him.

See, I don't have a problem believing God can work either way, but your theology 1) prevents you from seeing that there were many times that Jesus healed in response to someone's faith and 2) causes you to wrongly judge that people are in "pride" by exercising their faith.
What did Jesus mean by the phrase "According to your faith be it unto you."

How much faith did they have?

Did they have enough faith to be healed?

How do we know who much did they have?

Only Jesus KNOWS their hearts and their faith.

Faith in itself is nothing without grace, link between man's emptiness and God's grace. The fountain of God's grace, the channel through which we receive what God graciously gives us which gives us strong faith. To have faith in God, no matter how the fiery darts may be coming at us, understand that God has a purpose for us and that we are to trust God for that purpose.

[Faithful Love]

he is not choosing,he is observing what God has shown him.

Your very post shows..I I I I I I ,grace is not about I,it is about Him.


Yep.... God asks us all to make a choice --- choose Him (life) or death. It IS up to us! He gives us grace to make the decision. :bow:


But you and many others here just go in circles, confused and befuddled.


http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e186/feedpoor/circular-reasoning.jpg

[JimfromOhio]

:scratch:


I believe on my own with the free will and the brain He gave me.

I believe with the help of the Holy Spirit He gave me.

I believe because He told me anything not of faith is a sin.

I believe because He gave me grace to believe.



He gave you the same free will, the same Holy Spirit, the same faith, and the same grace to believe, but you choose to believe He brings sickness, disease and poverty to you and others. You convolute the scriptures to justify circumstances instead of standing on the Word to change circumstances.

It is all a choice. Some make it, some don't. I am glad I made the choice to believe.
The difference between "understanding" and "conviction" is the actual conversion. I want to go back to Paul's question in Galatians 3:2 "This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (decision), or by the hearing of faith (conviction) ?"

Learning from great faiths in the Bible, I saw that circumstances did not control them; it is their reaction to circumstances that determined what kind of people they were and most importantly, how faithful they were. They UNDERSTOOD God's grace. They made decisions they felt it is God's will however, circumstances made them change directions.

[probinson]

What did Jesus mean by the phrase "According to your faith be it unto you."

He meant exactly what He said.

How much faith did they have?
THE MEASURE of faith that God gives every believer.

Did they have enough faith to be healed?

How do we know who much did they have?

Only Jesus KNOWS their hearts and their faith.

Faith in itself is nothing without grace, link between man's emptiness and God's grace. The fountain of God's grace, the channel through which we receive what God graciously gives us which gives us strong faith. To have faith in God, no matter how the fiery darts may be coming at us, understand that God has a purpose for us and that we are to trust God for that purpose.
So hang on a second. Jesus made the statement to His disciples that they could not cast a demon out because they lacked faith, but you and pinetree seem to be saying that the "amount" of faith that someone has is solely dependent upon God. So IOW, it seems you believe that Jesus was telling them that they lacked faith, even though there was nothing they could do about it, because you believe that it's entirely up to God, and has nothing at all to do with us.

What you are preaching is an unbalanced grace message, that will cause people to feel condemned when they are simply just trying to exercise the measure of faith that God has given to them.

[pinetree]

God gives us all THE MEASURE of faith;
Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=9&context=verse)
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
What we do with that measure of faith is entirely up to us.

Why would Jesus say to people, "Oh ye of little faith", if it was God who didn't give them enough faith for what they needed? Why would Jesus tell His disciples that they couldn't cast out the demon because of their lack of faith, if it had nothing to do with them?
Well,if He ,the author and finisher does give a measure of faith,as we agree on,then is it not true then that an unhealed saint,was not given the measure of faith by God .(after all we agree,faith can only come by grace)

Which would show that for some reason,all are not healed,and it is not the sick persons fault,after all,he cant produce faith,or wealth,other than the grace bestowed upon him by God.

So apparently Gods will might,just might for some reason,might be that all are not healed,or rich.

[JimfromOhio]

If you would exercise His freely given grace and really read through the eyes of grace you will see what GOD has already said.:thumbsup:
Sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise his faith in which man's will is free because God is sovereign in which He gave us faith through His grace.

[probinson]

Well,if He ,the author and finisher does give a measure of faith,as we agree on,then is it not true then that an unhealed saint,was not given the measure of faith by God .(after all we agree,faith can only come by grace)
pinetree, did you read what I believe concerning healing? If you did, then why are we even having this discussion? In that post, I said this;

...
I do not condemn people for their sickness. I don't tell people all they need is faith, even though that may be true, only God can show a person that. I do not try to speculate why people are not healed. I simply do not know.
...
So why are we still going round and round on this?

[pinetree]

He meant exactly what He said.

THE MEASURE of faith that God gives every believer.

So hang on a second. Jesus made the statement to His disciples that they could not cast a demon out because they lacked faith, but you and pinetree seem to be saying that the "amount" of faith that someone has is solely dependent upon God. So IOW, it seems you believe that Jesus was telling them that they lacked faith, even though there was nothing they could do about it, because you believe that it's entirely up to God, and has nothing at all to do with us.

What you are preaching is an unbalanced grace message, that will cause people to feel condemned when they are simply just trying to exercise the measure of faith that God has given to them.
nope,that is a common misconception..

the saint that totally knows it is grace..HAS NO CONDEMNTAION,THEY KNOW IT IS FROM GOD!:clap:

we only get condemmed when WE fail in our own strength,bearong the full responsibilty of everything.

works based christianity!

[probinson]

Sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise his faith in which man's will is free because God is sovereign in which He gave us faith through His grace.
This may well be the most incoherent statement I've ever read on CF... :cool:

[pinetree]

pinetree, did you read what I believe concerning healing? If you did, then why are we even having this discussion? In that post, I said this;

So why are we still going round and round on this?
yes i read it.:thumbsup:

the point is,faith without grace.

[pinetree]

pete,do you agree with these words?

Well,if He ,the author and finisher does give a measure of faith,as we agree on,then is it not true then that an unhealed saint,was not given the measure of faith by God .(after all we agree,faith can only come by grace)

Which would show that for some reason,all are not healed,and it is not the sick persons fault,after all,he cant produce faith,or wealth,other than the grace bestowed upon him by God.

So apparently Gods will might,just might for some reason,might be that all are not healed,or rich

[probinson]

nope,that is a common misconception..

the saint that totally knows it is grace..HAS NO CONDEMNTAION,THEY KNOW IT IS FROM GOD!:clap:

we only get condemmed when WE fail in our own strength,bearong the full responsibilty of everything.

works based christianity!
The works of faith are necessary, if you are to believe this scripture;
James 2:17 (AMP)
So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).
If your faith does not have corresponding works, it is DEAD and INOPERATIVE.

This is why the unbalanced message of grace you are pushing is dangerous. It causes people to sit on their laurels, doing nothing, and just chalking it all up to grace.

Your deeds and actions should back up your faith, and if they don't your faith is inoperative and dead.

[probinson]

yes i read it.:thumbsup:

the point is,faith without grace.
Who is talking about faith without grace? WHO?

No one. :cool:

[probinson]

pete,do you agree with these words?


pinetree,

No. I do not agree with those words completely.

My posts show what I believe.

[pinetree]

Yep.... God asks us all to make a choice --- choose Him (life) or death. It IS up to us! He gives us grace to make the decision. :bow:


But you and many others here just go in circles, confused and befuddled.


http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e186/feedpoor/circular-reasoning.jpg
ok ok ,it is a funny picture,i admit it..:D

check out the funny i did on you on another thread here in the debate section..

hint..fatalism..:cool:

[pinetree]

pinetree,

No. I do not agree with those words completely.

My posts show what I believe.
could you please highlight the part you dont agree with.Thank you.

[JimfromOhio]

Yep.... God asks us all to make a choice --- choose Him (life) or death. It IS up to us! He gives us grace to make the decision. :bow:


But you and many others here just go in circles, confused and befuddled.


http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e186/feedpoor/circular-reasoning.jpg

Actually, when it comes to "faith" (salvation), God didn't tell us to make a choice or made us choose. You won't find many words of "choice" and "choose" in the New Testament. Jesus said in John 15:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=16&version=31&context=verse) You did not choose me, but I chose you. When a person do NOT acknowledge the Holy Spirit, Jesus said in Mark 3:29 "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." In Acts 7:51, "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"

[Faithful Love]

Actually, when it comes to "faith" (salvation), God didn't tell us to make a choice or made us choose. You won't find many words of "choice" and "choose" in the New Testament. Jesus said in John 15:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=16&version=31&context=verse) You did not choose me, but I chose you. When a person do NOT acknowledge the Holy Spirit, Jesus said in Mark 3:29 "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." In Acts 7:51, "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"


Actually, Jim, He tells us that IF we love Him WE will KEEP His commands.. He also tells us if we don't believe we are in sin...

So, in reality, He DOES ask US to make some choices.

That is what free will is all about.:angel:

[JimfromOhio]

This may well be the most incoherent statement I've ever read on CF... :cool:
Of course from your perspective. :P

May I ask,

Define "YOUR FAITH" as Christ have spoken many times from your perspective and how person get the knowledge and have strong faith get the blessings.

[pinetree]

I have heard this quote many time from WOFers, "You don't have enough faith to be healed. Your lack of faith is hindering God." I do have an issue with the focus of faith becomes faith in the miraculous, rather than faith in the Savior Himself. When He healed, He frequently said, "Your faith has made you well" (Matt. 9:22; Mk. 5:34; 10:52; Lk. 8:48; 17:19; 18:42). All those healings were object lessons on the doctrine of justification by faith alone through Jesus Christ by His GRACE. Who attempt to establish their own righteousness or mix faith with works only without GRACE will fall short of perfection where Christianity stands with the principle of sola fide.
:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[JimfromOhio]

Actually, Jim, He tells us that IF we love Him WE will KEEP His commands.. He also tells us if we don't believe we are in sin...

So, in reality, He DOES ask US to make some choices.

That is what free will is all about.:angel:

Pharisees thought the same way. But I am talking about AFTER we are convicted to accept Christ. AFTER we are saved, God (Jesus) wants us to use His grace to follow His commandments. In God's grace through Jesus Christ, I am free from bondage of sin. We can look at grace as 'costly grace' as opposed to 'cheap grace, ' which means 'Grace without price; grace without cost, ' or "grace without discipleship.' God didn't give us the burden of discipleship but rather to focus on HIM as we grow in faith in HIS GRACE by following His commandments. Paul wrote in Galatians 5:1 [ Freedom in Christ ] It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery (sin). Many Christians have spent their time correcting their faith symptoms rather than allowing the Holy Spirit lead their faith. Spiritual faith keeps our hearts open to whatever is of God, and rejects everything that is NOT of God, not matter how wonderful they offer to us in temporal sense.

AFTER ALL, He gave us two commandments. We are to love God and others. With the Holy Spirit and love, I will walk in the Spirit, Christ produces the fruit through His GRACE.

[pinetree]

The works of faith are necessary, if you are to believe this scripture;
James 2:17 (AMP)
So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).
If your faith does not have corresponding works, it is DEAD and INOPERATIVE.

This is why the unbalanced message of grace you are pushing is dangerous. It causes people to sit on their laurels, doing nothing, and just chalking it all up to grace.

Your deeds and actions should back up your faith, and if they don't your faith is inoperative and dead.
nope,that is another common misconception..
It is just the opposite,one grace filled man,named paul did alot!

By the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain, but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 1 Cor 15:10

grace is the power of God.

I decresed,he increased,,Who gets the glory in a grace and faith action..only God,not me.

do you see bro how your posts seem to have an emphasis on you?
And what you do...
All the faith actions you do,really originate from Him..

And God is able to make all grace abound to you, that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed. 2 Cor 9:8

Your faith deeds and actions,are really an outcome of grace,


Works can even be when we think we are producing faith.:)

ps,I appreciate your zeal for faith.:thumbsup::)

[pinetree]

Actually, Jim, He tells us that IF we love Him WE will KEEP His commands.. He also tells us if we don't believe we are in sin...

So, in reality, He DOES ask US to make some choices.

That is what free will is all about.:angel:
here is yet ANOTHER you emphasis post..:doh:

[pinetree]

Actually, when it comes to "faith" (salvation), God didn't tell us to make a choice or made us choose. You won't find many words of "choice" and "choose" in the New Testament. Jesus said in John 15:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=16&version=31&context=verse) You did not choose me, but I chose you. When a person do NOT acknowledge the Holy Spirit, Jesus said in Mark 3:29 "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." In Acts 7:51, "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"
wow,I never noticed that before..:thumbsup:

he chose me first,sure,how can a dead man,choose life?

Thanks Jim,that really blessed me.

[pinetree]

Yep.... God asks us all to make a choice --- choose Him (life) or death. It IS up to us! He gives us grace to make the decision. :bow:


But you and many others here just go in circles, confused and befuddled.


http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e186/feedpoor/circular-reasoning.jpg
here is another choose centered post..:doh:

[charityagape]

This post makes even less sense here than it did in the other thread.

Why are you asking WoF people to explain how God's grace is not powerful enough, when no WoF people believe that?

So, when did you stop beating your wife?

See how loaded that question is?

Do you really care what WoF people believe? I suspect the answer to that is a resounding "no".


Be careful about asking that question, its a no no.

[JimfromOhio]

May I ask to ANY WOFers,

Define "YOUR FAITH" as Christ have spoken many times from your perspective and how person get the knowledge and have strong faith get the blessings.

Well?

[probinson]

Well?
I tell ya what, Jim.

When you start answering questions with straight answers, I'll think about answering yours. Again. Because it's not like you haven't already read what I believe at least 100 times over...

Let's start with your question.

When Jesus said to the woman with the issue of blood, "YOUR FAITH has made you whole", what was He saying to her?

[pinetree]

I tell ya what, Jim.

When you start answering questions with straight answers, I'll think about answering yours. Again. Because it's not like you haven't already read what I believe at least 100 times over...

Let's start with your question.

When Jesus said to the woman with the issue of blood, "YOUR FAITH has made you whole", what was He saying to her?
Pete,we first have to lay a foudation here..grace is the origin.


If as you said,faith comes by grace,then why do you continue to stress the persons faith,like it is all up to them,when they can only have the measure God gves?

It would be like saying to a child..

"why aren't you in 9th grade yet?

when the child is only in 5th grade.

If faith is from God,we must reaize that it is at different measures with different people.

When Jesus asked,"where is your faith",dont you think the master would only ask that person the question,if He knew that the person could only answer according to the measure of faith he had at that time?

Different deposits,at different times..

It is all by the grace of God.

[probinson]

Pete,we first have to lay a foudation here..

If as you said,faith comes by grace,then why do you continue to stress the persons faith,like it is all up to them,when they can only have the measure God gves?

Let me put it to you this way.

Let's say I were to deposit $1,000 into your bank account. So your mortgage comes due, your car payment, etc., and you don't pay your bills. Are you going to tell the collectors when they call that I gave you "the measure" you needed to pay those bills, and you can't understand why they're upset?

Everything we have comes by the grace of God. I'm not disputing that. But it is up to us to exercise and put corresponding action to the faith that God gives us freely.

In the example above, when I give you the $1,000, it is still up to you to DO SOMETHING with it. Otherwise, that money does you no good. It just sits there in the bank, inoperative, doing nothing.

Likewise with faith. God gives us all THE MEASURE of faith. But it is up to us to put corresponding action with that faith. Otherwise, it is stagnant, inoperative, dead.

[JimfromOhio]

I tell ya what, Jim.

When you start answering questions with straight answers, I'll think about answering yours. Again. Because it's not like you haven't already read what I believe at least 100 times over...

Let's start with your question.

When Jesus said to the woman with the issue of blood, "YOUR FAITH has made you whole", what was He saying to her?

What did Jesus mean by the phrase "According to your faith be it unto you." How much faith did she really have? Did she have enough faith to be healed according to WOF's doctrines? How do we know she have a strong faith that much? Was she actually SAVED or was her FAITH actually believed that Jesus is a Messiah?

Only Jesus KNOWS their hearts and their faith. In 1 John 5:4 (KJV), explains. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. This woman perhaps KNEW that Jesus was the Messiah and through God's GRACE, she was convicted by the Holy Spirit to believe in HIM as the rest of us did. Jesus spent much of His time relieving it during His three year ministry. Jesus came to earth in order to deal with sin by paying its penalty on the cross. He also dealt with the results of sin – faced with demon possession, He cast out evil spirits. Finding disease, He healed the sick. God can, and sometimes does, heal people in miraculous ways today, but the Bible does not teach that He will always physically, emotionally and mentally heal those who come to Him in faith. His sovereignty reserves the right to heal or not to heal as He sees fit (1 Peter 3:17, 1 Peter 4:19, 1 Thessalonians 5:18).

For 3 years, Jesus taught His Disciples who became Apostles after His death. What kind of education did Jesus gave them? Reading all of the New Testament, I have come to conclusion that Jesus taught them Spiritual matters. In the Book of Acts, the Apostles took over what Jesus left off and did everything as Christ commanded as their roles as "Apostles".

[JimfromOhio]

Let me put it to you this way.

Let's say I were to deposit $1,000 into your bank account. So your mortgage comes due, your car payment, etc., and you don't pay your bills. Are you going to tell the collectors when they call that I gave you "the measure" you needed to pay those bills, and you can't understand why they're upset?

Everything we have comes by the grace of God. I'm not disputing that. But it is up to us to exercise and put corresponding action to the faith that God gives us freely.

In the example above, when I give you the $1,000, it is still up to you to DO SOMETHING with it. Otherwise, that money does you no good. It just sits there in the bank, inoperative, doing nothing.

Likewise with faith. God gives us all THE MEASURE of faith. But it is up to us to put corresponding action with that faith. Otherwise, it is stagnant, inoperative, dead.
Agreed, since faith is a gift from God through the Holy Spirit by the conviction to submit into action through His power, not our own. Working on of faith means nothing if you don't act on your faith. If you don't act, then you don't have faith which means grace in you is not being used that is sufficient to operate in your life.

[probinson]

What did Jesus mean by the phrase "According to your faith be it unto you." How much faith did she really have? Did she have enough faith to be healed according to WOF's doctrines? How do we know she have a strong faith that much? Was she actually SAVED or was her FAITH actually believed that Jesus is a Messiah?

Only Jesus KNOWS their hearts and their faith. In 1 John 5:4 (KJV), explains. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. This woman perhaps KNEW that Jesus was the Messiah and through God's GRACE, she was convicted by the Holy Spirit to believe in HIM as the rest of us did.
But that's not what scripture says. Scripture is very clear why this woman touched Jesus garment;
Mark 5:28 (AMP)
For she kept saying, If I only touch His garments, I shall be restored to health.
It is clear why this woman touched Jesus. She desired to be restored to health. And Jesus didn't condemn her or call her "self-centered" for this. She was healed, because power went out of Him.

Look at what it says happened when the woman touched Jesus;
Mark 5:30 (AMP)
And Jesus, recognizing in Himself that the power proceeding from Him had gone forth, turned around immediately in the crowd and said, Who touched My clothes?
Jesus didn't even know who had touched Him. Only that someone had touched Him in faith. And then Jesus said to her, "Your faith" has made you whole.

This is a pretty straightforward passage of scripture, unless your doctrine prevents you from seeing what actually took place. :cool:

[JimfromOhio]

But that's not what scripture says. Scripture is very clear why this woman touched Jesus garment;
Mark 5:28 (AMP)
For she kept saying, If I only touch His garments, I shall be restored to health.
It is clear why this woman touched Jesus. She desired to be restored to health. And Jesus didn't condemn her or call her "self-centered" for this. She was healed, because power went out of Him.

Look at what it says happened when the woman touched Jesus;
Mark 5:30 (AMP)
And Jesus, recognizing in Himself that the power proceeding from Him had gone forth, turned around immediately in the crowd and said, Who touched My clothes?
Jesus didn't even know who had touched Him. Only that someone had touched Him in faith. And then Jesus said to her, "Your faith" has made you whole.

This is a pretty straightforward passage of scripture, unless your doctrine prevents you from seeing what actually took place. :cool:

Let's look at that in context and understanding the Jewish culture of the time. From the Jewish point of view, you couldn't imagine anything worse than being a woman with an issue of blood. It was humiliating beyond anything else, with the possible exception of leprosy. The disease rendered the sufferer unclean, according to Leviticus 15:25-27: "And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation, all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she shall be unclean. Every bed whereon she lieth all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her separation; and whatsoever she sitteth upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her separation. And whosoever toucheth those things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening."

In that culture, a woman wouldn't go around touching men, let alone grabbing them, as the word "touch" indicates in the Greek. What type of illness was this issue of blood? For twelve years, the woman could not stop bleeding. As a result of her condition, she was considered perpetually unclean. Luke said that she could not be cured (8:43) and Mark said that she had spent all her money on doctors and was even worse (5:26). Bythe way Luke wouldn't have said what Mark have wrote, of course, because he was a doctor! :P Every bed she laid upon and everything she sat on, anything she wore, and anyone who touched her also became unclean. Therefore, she was excommunicated from the synagogue, divorced by her husband, and ostracized from all human relationships. Consequently, for twelve years that poor woman had lived in isolation.

Do you see why she so desperately sought to touch Jesus?

The woman touched the hem (Gk. kraspedon = "tassel"; Heb. zizith = "fringe") of Jesus' garment. In the Old Testament (Num. 15:37-41; Dt. 22:12), the Israelites were instructed to mark their garments with a fringe of four blue tassels symbolizing the law of God. They identified a Jewish person as a member of God's chosen people regardless of where he was in the world, and reminded him every time he took his clothes off or put them on that he belonged to God. Reaching out for one of them, the woman kept saying to herself, "If I may but touch His garment, I shall be well" (Mt. 9:21b).

When the woman grabbed the tassel, Jesus suddenly stopped in the midst of the crowd; it was if time itself stopped, and for the moment it seemed as if only the woman and her great need existed. The disciples didn't understand Jesus' sensitivity to a woman's seeking heart. Mark 5:31 and Luke 8:45 record them as saying, in effect, "Are You kidding? How can You say, `Who touched You?' People are crowding all around You." Even faith as small as a mustard seed will move a mountain has healed this woman.

When Jesus said, "...thy faith hath made thee well" (8:22), Jesus didn't use the usual word for healing, iaomai, but rather used the word sozo, which can mean to save in terms of redemption. She was actually SAVED by grace of God. Jesus did miracles of healing everywhere, even for those who had no faith, but He saved only those who had faith in Him through the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Her faith was like that of one man who said "Lord, I believe; help Thou mine unbelief" (Mk. 9:24).

Understanding what Faith really is, then you know that God's grace is within you.

[probinson]

... but rather used the word sozo, which can mean to save in terms of redemption. ...
It's interesting you should mention that, because in Romans 10:9-10, the word sozo is used also.

So here, Jesus uses the word "sozo" as speaking about a physical healing, and in Romans 10:9-10, the word "sozo" is used to describe what happens when we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our heart that God raised Him from dead, we shall be "sozo".

[JimfromOhio]

It's interesting you should mention that, because in Romans 10:9-10, the word sozo is used also.

So here, Jesus uses the word "sozo" as speaking about a physical healing, and in Romans 10:9-10, the word "sozo" is used to describe what happens when we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our heart that God raised Him from dead, we shall be "sozo".

Yes but, Jesus healed many who didn't have faith. (unless you are purposely over-looking that). The word for spiritual salvation (eternally) translated "will restore" is the normal word for salvation (sozo). It is used often in the gospels of restoration to health (cf, Matt. 9:21,22; Mark 5:23,28,34; 6:56; John 11:12; etc.) which meant “at-one-ment” with God and referred to all the ways in which God and humans have been reconciled through the work of Jesus Christ. God's Promise which God has entered guarantees reconciliation. We are reconciled to God. God's gracious new will—His promise—guarantees pardon. We may be restored into the household of God by faith.

[JimfromOhio]

Faith and Legalism

Legalism is the belief that if you perform certain as a Christian, God will save and bless you on that basis rather than on faith based on God's grace and the attitude of your heart. Reading Galatians had been all God had intended until legalism entered their churches and their members began stumble. In the book of Galatians, Paul was saying, "Before you continue to follow the false teaching of this group, you better consider what kind of persons they are." Paul wants his readers to evaluate the character of false teachers regarding faith (man's doctrines) teachings. Sometimes Christians (I did in the past) can find themselves falling into a pattern of legalism when they disregard the truths about the GRACE of God.

[GreatistheLord]

pinetree, it's not that simple.

What you've just said here is at odds with what Jesus told many people. How many times did Jesus tell people, "your faith has made you whole", or "because of your faith"? How much did Jesus emphasize faith? Why would He do that if our faith had nothing to do with us? Why would Jesus tell us to do something that we were incapable of doing? Why would Jesus chastise people for their lack of faith, if that lack of faith had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with them?

If you're really interested in ending the contention ;), you'll think about those questions.

To JimFromOhio,

God indeed gives us grace, and His grace can give us faith. What grace can never do is override our unbelief. We usually have our part to play.

Yes, God can give us so much grace that it is virtually impossible to fail, but that is not how God normally works or wants to work.

It is also not impossible for a human to have faith in God without supernatural help, but I thank God that His grace is the only reason for anything good I am, or will ever ultimately do.

[GreatistheLord]

It could be either.

Why was the woman with the issue of blood healed? She decided and said within herself, if I simply touch the hem of Jesus' garment, I will be healed. When she touched Him, He didn't even know WHO had touched Him, simply that someone had touched Him in faith. His response? "YOUR FAITH has made you whole."

Why was the man at the pool healed? Because Jesus showed grace on the man, stepped over others, and healed Him.

See, I don't have a problem believing God can work either way, but your theology 1) prevents you from seeing that there were many times that Jesus healed in response to someone's faith and 2) causes you to wrongly judge that people are in "pride" by exercising their faith.

Amen

[JimfromOhio]

To JimFromOhio,

God indeed gives us grace, and His grace can give us faith. What grace can never do is override our unbelief. We usually have our part to play.

Yes, God can give us so much grace that it is virtually impossible to fail, but that is not how God normally works or wants to work.

It is also not impossible for a human to have faith in God without supernatural help, but I thank God that His grace is the only reason for anything good I am, or will ever ultimately do.
We can't produce faith on our own because if we did, we would not be saved by GRACE because in Ephesians 4:30 ".....do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption" Our salvation provides everything necessary to transform us on the inside and the outside that therefore we have no excuse for not living godly lives because of God's sufficient GRACE. The Greek word translated "spiritual" (pneumatikos) in the New Testament always refers to the work of the Holy Spirit that ALL God's grace is given to us through the power and grace of the Holy Spirit. With that in mind, I am reminded that "God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work." (2 Corinthians 9:8). Even our faith as 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

[pinetree]

To JimFromOhio,

God indeed gives us grace, and His grace can give us faith. What grace can never do is override our unbelief. We usually have our part to play.

Yes, God can give us so much grace that it is virtually impossible to fail, but that is not how God normally works or wants to work.

It is also not impossible for a human to have faith in God without supernatural help, but I thank God that His grace is the only reason for anything good I am, or will ever ultimately do.
the only thing is,if unbelief is a lack of faith,and faith comes by grace,than grace is the answer to override unbelief.

Your part to play,is to walk in grace,like Paul did.That takes weakness,and is where grace overrides self strength..


By the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain, but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 1 Cor 15:10

[JimfromOhio]

Amen
It appears you agree with legalism of FAITH. I want to go back to Paul's question in Galatians 3:2 "This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (decision), or by the hearing of faith (conviction) ?" In Galatians 6:3 says "If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself." And in James 1:26 says, "If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless."

[Seeking Him]

I think faith can be distorted if we try to bring it about in our strength. Real faith will always focus on Jesus and his power. You will become aware of His ability, not your own

False faith focuses on you and your strength, then God's power remains on the sidelines.

Isn't faith really coming to God in childlike belief in a Father we know will always be there to answer. It seems like we complicate it.

[pinetree]

I think faith can be distorted if we try to bring it about in our strength. Real faith will always focus on Jesus and his power. You will become aware of His ability, not your own

False faith focuses on you and your strength, then God's power remains on the sidelines.

Isn't faith really coming to God in childlike belief in a Father we know will always be there to answer. It seems like we complicate it.
:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[GreatistheLord]

We can't produce faith on our own because if we did, we would not be saved by GRACE because in Ephesians 4:30 ".....do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption" Our salvation provides everything necessary to transform us on the inside and the outside that therefore we have no excuse for not living godly lives because of God's sufficient GRACE. The Greek word translated "spiritual" (pneumatikos) in the New Testament always refers to the work of the Holy Spirit that ALL God's grace is given to us through the power and grace of the Holy Spirit. With that in mind, I am reminded that "God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work." (2 Corinthians 9:8). Even our faith as 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

I'm not taking away from you, our need of grace, and we wouldn't be saved unless we received faith from God. We all need God's grace.

*BUT*, if we receive miracles from God by grace alone, (because faith is received by grace from God), you leave alot of questions to be answered.

i) Why isn't God moving everywhere, all the time? Why was Jesus hindered from healing in his own town? God didn't want them healed?

ii) Why are miracles less common in western nations than in poorer countries? Is God's lack of grace so uniform across continents?

iii) It makes faith "automatic", and kind of meaningless. What then does "the gift of Faith" mean?

iv) There is a paradox of how do we receive faith (by grace) without having faith to ask in the first place?

In contrast

Rom 10 faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.....

I Thes 3:10 Night and day we pray most earnestly that we may see you again and supply what is lacking in your faith. - Paul is saying that by personally visiting, they will suppy them faith!

2 Thes 1:3 We ought always to thank God for you, brothers, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for each other is increasing.

[pinetree]

I'm not taking away from you, our need of grace, and we wouldn't be saved unless we received faith from God. We all need God's grace.

*BUT*, if we receive miracles from God by grace alone, (because faith is received by grace from God), you leave alot of questions to be answered.

i) Why isn't God moving everywhere, all the time? Why was Jesus hindered from healing in his own town? God didn't want them healed?

ii) Why are miracles less common in western nations than in poorer countries? Is God's lack of grace so uniform across continents?

iii) It makes faith "automatic", and kind of meaningless. What then does "the gift of Faith" mean?

iv) There is a paradox of how do we receive faith (by grace) without having faith to ask in the first place?

In contrast

Rom 10 faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.....

I Thes 3:10 Night and day we pray most earnestly that we may see you again and supply what is lacking in your faith. - Paul is saying that by personally visiting, they will suppy them faith!

2 Thes 1:3 We ought always to thank God for you, brothers, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for each other is increasing.
grace is the origin.:thumbsup:

It is a measure that God gives in His timing and will..

If faith grows ,by what power does it grow? grace!

Acts 6:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=6&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people.

Acts 14:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=14&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders

look at these verses,what was the origin of the power?

look how it was God's grace at work.

The emphasis was on grace,not the persons faith.

Why wouldn't it be, if you admit faith can only come by grace,and we know grace has a measure,which means Jesus puts it when and where he wants,by his timing and desire to accomplish his will!

See how in this verse,the measure of faith AND grace,run togrther,as by his will.and His will alone,not dependant on me.

Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.


Romans 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.


1 Timothy 1:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&verse=14&version=31&context=verse)
The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

it is all by grace,lest any should boast. Faith cant be separated from grace...

Jesus is grace...

Grace and truth,were realized in Jesus Christ. John 1:17

So we must ask the question..how does all this faith we hear about,really come,where does the power come from to impart it into our hearts.?

Since it is by grace,can I really control,or add to anything? hhmmmmm

[GreatistheLord]

grace is the origin.:thumbsup:

The emphasis was on grace,not the persons faith.


Why would it be if you admit faith can only come by grace,and we know grace has measure,which means Jesus puts it when and where he wants,by his timing and desire to accomplish his will!

I wasn't saying that faith comes by grace alone. Just because faith can come by grace does not mean that it can *only* come by grace.

If I was with Jesus's ministry, I would have alot of faith that God can heal the sick. If I grew up with Jesus, I would find it hard to believe that he can. It's not complicated.

Luke 18:8 However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?

[pinetree]

I wasn't saying that faith comes by grace alone. Just because faith can come by grace does not mean that it can *only* come by grace.

If I was with Jesus's ministry, I would have alot of faith that God can heal the sick. If I grew up with Jesus, I would find it hard to believe that he can. It's not complicated.

Grace does not take away the serious job of believing when all hope seems to have gone.

Luke 18:8 However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?
hello,nice to chat with you.:wave:

It can only come by grace,how can we,impart super natural power into the heart..

Sure,I agree , you our faith can grow also by our experiences,as I am sure the deciples faith grew by what they witnessed.
As far as standing in hope,we stand in grace,,,

This is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it! 1 Peter 5:12

faith and grace cant be separated..

in fact,we are told to look to grace..

Fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of
Jesus Christ. 1Peter 1:13

also..
We have a high priest who can sympathize with our weaknesses,who was tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
Let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need. Heb 4:15,16

our strength even is to be His grace.

Be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 Tim 2:1

See how really the foundation should be grace,it comes from the throne..
Sure,along with faith too..

paul laid the foundation by the grace of God..

[JimfromOhio]

I'm not taking away from you, our need of grace, and we wouldn't be saved unless we received faith from God. We all need God's grace.

*BUT*, if we receive miracles from God by grace alone, (because faith is received by grace from God), you leave alot of questions to be answered.

i) Why isn't God moving everywhere, all the time? Why was Jesus hindered from healing in his own town? God didn't want them healed?

ii) Why are miracles less common in western nations than in poorer countries? Is God's lack of grace so uniform across continents?

iii) It makes faith "automatic", and kind of meaningless. What then does "the gift of Faith" mean?

iv) There is a paradox of how do we receive faith (by grace) without having faith to ask in the first place?

In contrast

Rom 10 faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.....

I Thes 3:10 Night and day we pray most earnestly that we may see you again and supply what is lacking in your faith. - Paul is saying that by personally visiting, they will suppy them faith!

2 Thes 1:3 We ought always to thank God for you, brothers, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for each other is increasing.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word..... now.. explain the source of that FAITH when a person finally "LISTEN" to. Because I have explained this many times already and I am not going to repeat until you TELL me the source when a person finally acknowledged God and God supplies Faith through...............(blank).............

[pinetree]

Acts 20:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=20&verse=32&version=31&context=verse)
"Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

The word,... that faith comes by,is grace.:clap:

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith,not us.

What is the origin of faith?...:)

[Seeking Him]

Originally Posted by GreatistheLord http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47904923#post47904923)
I wasn't saying that faith comes by grace alone. Just because faith can come by grace does not mean that it can *only* come by grace.

If I was with Jesus's ministry, I would have alot of faith that God can heal the sick. If I grew up with Jesus, I would find it hard to believe that he can. It's not complicated.

Grace does not take away the serious job of believing when all hope seems to have gone.

Luke 18:8 However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



When you speak of the"serious job of believing" it brings to mind a workload of striving with inner resolve with one's own strength.

I think faith is more of a simple childlike belief in a generous and compassionate Father who has our best interests at heart.

The woman with the issue of blood simply 'heard the reports about Jesus" I don't think there was much labor involved, but a love response to God.

False faith puts the burden on our ability to believe, real faith is a heart response to an all powerful God.:)

[GreatistheLord]

Acts 20:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=20&verse=32&version=31&context=verse)
"Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

The word,... that faith comes by,is grace.:clap:

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith,not us.

What is the origin of faith?...:)


I'm not disagreeing with you. Either of you, but let's go further.
We receive faith by grace. Through faith and patience we inherit the promises. This is our work. Faith works though love.
If faith without works is dead, then faith, by grace, without works is also dead. So in the *whole* process, we need God's grace and faith, but also our "works" of patience, love, belief (human faith), and stepping out.
God's grace can be in vain.

[JimfromOhio]

***sigh****

Here are some hints:

Hearing the Word is this: Jesus said in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. When a person do NOT acknowledge the Holy Spirit, that is explained in Mark 3:29 "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." In Acts 7:51, "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"

I want to go back to Paul's question in Galatians 3:2 "This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" What's the differences between LAW and FAITH? Law is works while FAITH is GRACE.

1 Thessalonians 1:5
For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance (conviction), as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with Him in baptism and raised with Him through your faith in the power of God (not ourselves), who raised Him from the dead.

[pinetree]

I'm not disagreeing with you. Either of you, but let's go further.
We receive faith by grace. Through faith and patience we inherit the promises. This is our work. Faith works though love.
If faith without works is dead, then faith, by grace, without works is also dead. So in the *whole* process, we need God's grace and faith, but also our "works" of patience, love, belief (human faith), and stepping out.
God's grace can be in vain.
even our works are grace rooted..

Acts 6:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=6&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people.



But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. Rom 11:6


And God is able to make all grace abound to you, that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed. 2 Cor 9:8


By the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain, but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 1 Cor 15:10

i cant help it,it is scripture..:);)

[JimfromOhio]

even our works are grace rooted..

Acts 6:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=6&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people.



But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. Rom 11:6


And God is able to make all grace abound to you, that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed. 2 Cor 9:8


By the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain, but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 1 Cor 15:10

i cant help it,it is scripture..:);)




That's what important. Its in the Scriptures and MAN can teach their version of the doctrine. It is VERY CLEAR in the SCRIPTURES that it is from GRACE, not from our own flesh. Legalism of Faith doctrines have twisted things around and focused on works of faith rather than grace working in our faith.

[GreatistheLord]

Why do we fail then? It God's grace not sufficient?

[JimfromOhio]

Why do we fail then? It God's grace not sufficient?
We fail because we are NOT relying on GRACE. Some stumble because they rely on their own works rather than the Holy Spirit. Many do not fully understand how powerful God's grace is and how to have faith under grace. How much grace can do for us without an ounce of effort from our flesh.

Through your posts, you are focusing on man's works of faith.

[GreatistheLord]

We fail because we are NOT relying on GRACE. Some stumble because they rely on their own works rather than the Holy Spirit. Many do not fully understand how powerful God's grace is and how to have faith under grace. How much grace can do for us without an ounce of effort from our flesh.

Through your posts, you are focusing on man's works of faith.

I'm not sure we will ever agree so maybe this is a good place to stop. I have no personal desire to make faith work-based, and if it is was all grace, I would be *very* happy. Maybe it's just semantics in the end.

When we receive miracles, it is God's grace, but I think of all the times when I blew it, and I know that it was *me* that messed up. Therefore, I need to do something different. Whether you dress that up in "grace terminology" or "w*rks terminology", it was still me!

[JimfromOhio]

I'm not sure we will ever agree so maybe this is a good place to stop. I have no personal desire to make faith work-based, and if it is was all grace, I would be *very* happy. Maybe it's just semantics in the end.

When we receive miracles, it is God's grace, but I think of all the times when I blew it, and I know that it was *me* that messed up. Therefore, I need to do something different. Whether you dress that up in "grace terminology" or "w*rks terminology", it was still me!
The real question is this:

Am I allowing God to work in me through the Holy Spirit and allowing God's grace to make things happen?

Remember Corrie ten Boom's quote I have quoted a few times.

[pinetree]

oopps,sorry mistake.

[~RENEE~]

We fail because we're human but we have an advocate with the Father the man Christ Jesus.

[JimfromOhio]

We fail because we're human but we have an advocate with the Father the man Christ Jesus.
Yes, by the power of His GRACE. :thumbsup:

[~RENEE~]

no by his mercy

[JimfromOhio]

no by his mercy
Read more about GRACE (Charisma) in these two threads: :thumbsup:

Charisma: Powerful GRACE http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7263131

Friendship that Christians have with
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7263128 (which talks more in detailed about Charisma (i.e. gift of divine GRACE)