"Thy Will be Done:" Faith or Fatalism?

[victoryword]

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. (Matthew 6:9, 10; see also Luke 11:2)

This passage is from the Lord's prayer and is cited by some to imply that Jesus wanted us to pray in a way in which we lacked knowledge or assurance of His will. It is often interpreted to mean, "Whatever your will is Lord, be it sickness, tragedy, or whatever, let it be done."

I find it a shame that so many take a dim view of the prayer instruction of our Lord Jesus the Messiah. Traditional Christianity seems to perplexingly thrive on the negative. Yet, God says that His will for men is "good" As affirmed by the angels during Jesus' birth: “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.” (Luke 2:14). Furthermore, if the phrase "as it is in heaven" means anything, then we should understand that only positive things occur in Heaven, therefore, God wants the same on the earth.

If one would begin to understand that God's Word is a revelation of God's will, then one would better understand this passage. When one knows the Word of God then the statement, "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" becomes a declaration and prayer of faith rather than a prayer of "que sera, sera, whatever will be is God's will for me."

We must recognize that God's will is not always being done on the earth. In prayer we are partnering with God to have His will done. God has decided to accomplish His will on the earth through the prayers of His people. In order to pray in confidence concerning that will, we must have a better grasp of His Word and the commands and promises therein. Out with those "if it be thy will" prayers when God's will has been clearly revealed.

For example, When I know the will of God concerning the preaching of the gospel then I can pray, "Thy will, which is to have laborers sent into East Asia, be done." I don't have to pray, "Lord, if it be thy will, send missionaries to East Africa." His will is already revealed in His Word. So learn the Word, recognize THAT is His revealed will, and then pray, "Thy will be done on earthas it is in Heaven."

[Tamara224]

Traditional Christianity (aka Orthodoxy) has a better grasp on Scripture than you seem to want to give it credit for.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but lots of people before you have had a good understanding (revelation) of what God's word says.


This smells strongly of Gnosticism. Special knowledge = special power.

No wonder you have a problem with "traditional Christianity". Traditional Christianity booted Gnosticism a long time ago.

[Jimbeaux]

Why is so distasteful to some to follow Jesus’ clear instructions, “When you pray say, Your will be done.” Was Jesus guilty of fatalism when He prayed, “Not my will but Yours be done”?

I really don’t get what your problem is in doing as Christ told you to do and in following Christ’s example. :scratch:

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[victoryword]

Traditional Christianity (aka Orthodoxy) has a better grasp on Scripture than you seem to want to give it credit for.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but lots of people before you have had a good understanding (revelation) of what God's word says.


This smells strongly of Gnosticism. Special knowledge = special power.

No wonder you have a problem with "traditional Christianity". Traditional Christianity booted Gnosticism a long time ago.

Why would Knowledge of God's Word be equal to "special knowledge" or "Gnosticism?" Ah, let the silly rebuttals begin ;)

Oh, and I could care less about traditional Orthodoxy. Traditional orthodoxy usally equals Calvinism which also at one time included cessationism. Let's talk BIBLE yo.

[Tamara224]

Why would Knowledge of God's Word be equal to "special knowledge" or "Gnosticism?"

Knowledge of God's word isn't equal to Gnosticism.

But what you wrote in the OP is very similar to it.

You suggested that "traditional Christianity" doesn't understand what the Bible really says and if we just "begin to understand that God's Word" [in the way that you want us to understand it] then we'd know God's will all the time and, presumably, be able to get whatever we ask for that way.



Oh, and I could care less about traditional Orthodoxy.

Obviously.

Traditional orthodoxy usally equals Calvinism which also at one time included cessationism. Let's talk BIBLE yo.

Don't be ridiculous. There was 1500 years of Christian history, Christian apologists, philosophers, teachers, writers, councils, etc, by the time Calvin was born.

[Tamara224]

Why is so distasteful to some to follow Jesus’ clear instructions, “When you pray say, Your will be done.” Was Jesus guilty of fatalism when He prayed, “Not my will but Yours be done”?

I really don’t get what your problem is in doing as Christ told you to do and in following Christ’s example. :scratch:

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.



~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



This is rhetorical, right? (That was. :P)

[Jimbeaux]

This is rhetorical, right?

Sure looks like it. ;) But it was meant as an honest question.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[GreatistheLord]

Why is so distasteful to some to follow Jesus’ clear instructions, “When you pray say, Your will be done.” Was Jesus guilty of fatalism when He prayed, “Not my will but Yours be done”?

I really don’t get what your problem is in doing as Christ told you to do and in following Christ’s example. :scratch:

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.



~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain


The example is to know God's will and do it. Who's disagreeing with you?

Matt 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons.

[Jimbeaux]

Is God’s will limited to His Word or does God have a specific will for me and you, personally—one that is revealed and one that is not, one that can be known from scripture and one that can only be known by search or by the Spirit of God? Is their a great overarching will of God for every human being and yet another for each individual.

James said, 13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.” 16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. (James 4)

And Paul told the Corinthians, 19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord wills, and I will know, not the word of those who are puffed up, but the power. (1 Cor. 4)

Were these Apostles encouraging fatalism or were they encouraging surrendering our wills to that of the Lord’s? Apparently Paul was unclear as to whether or not the Lord willed for Him to come to Corinth or not and James taught us to surrender ourselves to whatever God decided in any matter effecting us.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[victoryword]

Why is so distasteful to some to follow Jesus’ clear instructions, “When you pray say, Your will be done.” Was Jesus guilty of fatalism when He prayed, “Not my will but Yours be done”?

I really don’t get what your problem is in doing as Christ told you to do and in following Christ’s example. :scratch:

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.



~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain


I love how your side uses so much distortion and misrepresentation Jimmy. First Tammy with this idea that I teach "special knowledge = gnosticism" and now your claim that I have a probelm with following Christ's example. Yeesh Jimmy, you are funny.

I preached a sermon on that passage above once. Let me copy and paste a portion of my sermon outline:

Now there are at least SIX views on what this "cup" Jesus was asking to have passed from Him.

1. Jesus was praying against the soon coming suffering and going to cross (the most common view – Matt. 10:38, 39).
2. Jesus was praying against being made sin and being separated from the Father (many Evangelicals believe this)
3. Jesus was praying against being made sin, being separated from the Father and going to hell.
4. Jesus was not praying against anything but simply submitting Himself to the Father’s will. Jesus was praying the prayer of consecration. Basically, Jesus was getting His desires to line up with God’s.
5. Jesus was praying not to stay dead but to be resurrected.
6. Jesus was praying against a premature death (held by many but not all).

Some hold to a combination of at least three of them. The first three presupposes that God denied Jesus' request. Many who like to advocate the "God answers to prayer are 'yes, no, and wait''" love the first three because it supports their position so well. The last two presupposes that the Father did indeed answer Jesus’ prayer with a yes.

I will leave you to guess which one I adhere too in this great example of Jesus. The rest of my sermon outline gives the Biblical reasons why I hold to those points. But why cast my pearls before swine, eh?

[Jimbeaux]

I love how your side uses so much distortion and misrepresentation Jimmy.

*****

Jimmy?

Was that said with a condescending tone?

My friends call me Jim, VW.

But I guess you can call me Jimmy.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Tamara224]

I love how your side uses so much distortion and misrepresentation Jimmy. First Tammy with this idea that I teach "special knowledge = gnosticism" and now your claim that I have a probelm with following Christ's example. Yeesh Jimmy, you are funny.

If you're going to call me by my nickname, spell it right.

Tami

:wave:

But if you're doing it to try to insult me, as I suspect, then you can call me ma'am. :kiss:

[JimfromOhio]

Faith or Fatalism......

Faith is by GRACE

Fatalism is by works of Faith.

Legalism faith that Word of Faith teaches that we "deserve" our temporal blessings and ignore the biblical concept of "eternal blessings". The religious leaders were the "faithful ones" and they were legalistic that Jesus was rebuking them and told them about GRACE. Grace (New Testament) versus Legalism (Old Testament). Naw, they focus on faith based on a system they believed in.

Faith is by GRACE: When we became a believer, we gained instant possession of all things that pertain to life and godliness according to God's grace as well as His will. The source of all things pertaining to life and godliness is God's divine power called GRACE which having God's own overwhelming energy that is concentrated on providing all our needs. God is constantly leading us (Rom. 8:14) and all we need to do is apply our will to HIS will to follow because God has already given us strength beyond our wildest dreams (Phil. 4:13).

[JimfromOhio]

Traditional Christianity (aka Orthodoxy) has a better grasp on Scripture than you seem to want to give it credit for.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but lots of people before you have had a good understanding (revelation) of what God's word says.


This smells strongly of Gnosticism. Special knowledge = special power.

No wonder you have a problem with "traditional Christianity". Traditional Christianity booted Gnosticism a long time ago.

What I can is knowing God is through right thinking about God which is very essential to true intimacy with Him. All we can know with any certainty about God is what is revealed in Scripture.

Gnostic (knowledge Gk.,gnosis) is like experiencing ascend higher into the eternal consciousness in which we cannot. I know I can't. Word of Faith's teaches that a person is not healed because he/she is not spiritual enough as well as not knowing how to USE faith in their lives. They leave out GRACE so they can focus on fatalism of faith based on man's doctrines.

[JimfromOhio]

Why would Knowledge of God's Word be equal to "special knowledge" or "Gnosticism?" Ah, let the silly rebuttals begin ;)

Oh, and I could care less about traditional Orthodoxy. Traditional orthodoxy usally equals Calvinism which also at one time included cessationism. Let's talk BIBLE yo.
Christian Tradition is an important guidance for all believers however, Christian Tradition should be carefully scrutinized (to look over closely and discerning) before we rely on them. Tradition by itself is not enough because it must be studied and be brought up to date to true orthodoxy. When Tradition is supported by the Scriptures, it will communicate not as dead words but rather spiritually alive words through the Holy Spirit through the Word of God (THE BIBLE). NOT MAN's DOCTRINES (i.e. Word of Faith). In 1 Timothy 4:1 we are told: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils." We are told yet again in Heb. 13:9, "Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace...".

Doctrines within denominations are important for aligning ourselves with local churches we belong to. Regarding "whose" Church is speaking of man-lead doctrines. I am a Christian FIRST. Secondary is the doctrines I rely on based on the Holy Spirit's conviction through the Word of God. What I can is knowing God is through right thinking about God which is very essential to true intimacy with Him. All we can know with any certainty about God is what is revealed in Scripture. I know the true God in the true way is thoroughly familiar with His Word which is the Bible.

We do not need Church for salvation, only Christ provides salvation. We do need to fellowship with our brothers & sisters in Christ and that can only be accomplish through a local church.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

...Gnosticism. Special knowledge = special power.
...Traditional Christianity booted Gnosticism a long time ago.

Actually it didn't do away with it entirely though, because you see, who will be the arbiter of what bes the "right understanding" in the "traditional" view then? It bes just as "gnostic" to claim special privilege, power, insight, dispensation for a consensus view as for any individual one. And while yes, scripture cautions that no prophecy bes of any private interpretation, that bes meant more to draw contrast between human thought and the understanding inspired by the Spirit of God rather than a contrast of numbers between the many and the few (or the one), as if truth should be determined by majority vote. Had truth been the provenance of the majority we would never have seen the Reformation.

Moreover, history has well attested that the consensus view not only can be dreadfully wrong (think selling indulgences for example) but heinously criminal and riddled with atrocity (think the crusades or the burning times).

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

OP asks:

"Thy Will be Done:" Faith or Fatalism?

Moriah answers: Neither... but rather, SUBMISSION.

[Faithful Love]

Victoryword,

You are wasting your good word here, pearls are only being trampled. :o

[Jimbeaux]

These is a pearl ...


http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/THK/THK022/oyster-shell-pearl_~e00010168.jpg

This is not ...

http://calpattypress.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/calpattypress.jpg
http://i.ixnp.com/images/v3.38/t.gifhttp://i.ixnp.com/images/v3.38/t.gif

[merryheart]

OP asks:

"Thy Will be Done:" Faith or Fatalism?

Moriah answers: Neither... but rather, SUBMISSION.

Amen! It is only through submission that faith can be born.

[pinetree]

These is a pearl ...


http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/THK/THK022/oyster-shell-pearl_~e00010168.jpg

This is not ...

http://calpattypress.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/calpattypress.jpg
http://i.ixnp.com/images/v3.38/t.gifhttp://i.ixnp.com/images/v3.38/t.gif
:D:D

[pinetree]

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. (Matthew 6:9, 10; see also Luke 11:2)
This passage is from the Lord's prayer and is cited by some to imply that Jesus wanted us to pray in a way in which we lacked knowledge or assurance of His will. It is often interpreted to mean, "Whatever your will is Lord, be it sickness, tragedy, or whatever, let it be done."

I find it a shame that so many take a dim view of the prayer instruction of our Lord Jesus the Messiah. Traditional Christianity seems to perplexingly thrive on the negative. Yet, God says that His will for men is "good" As affirmed by the angels during Jesus' birth: “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.” (Luke 2:14). Furthermore, if the phrase "as it is in heaven" means anything, then we should understand that only positive things occur in Heaven, therefore, God wants the same on the earth.

If one would begin to understand that God's Word is a revelation of God's will, then one would better understand this passage. When one knows the Word of God then the statement, "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" becomes a declaration and prayer of faith rather than a prayer of "que sera, sera, whatever will be is God's will for me."

We must recognize that God's will is not always being done on the earth. In prayer we are partnering with God to have His will done. God has decided to accomplish His will on the earth through the prayers of His people. In order to pray in confidence concerning that will, we must have a better grasp of His Word and the commands and promises therein. Out with those "if it be thy will" prayers when God's will has been clearly revealed.

For example, When I know the will of God concerning the preaching of the gospel then I can pray, "Thy will, which is to have laborers sent into East Asia, be done." I don't have to pray, "Lord, if it be thy will, send missionaries to East Africa." His will is already revealed in His Word. So learn the Word, recognize THAT is His revealed will, and then pray, "Thy will be done on earthas it is in Heaven."
If God,wants the earth to be like heaven..

Why did he say..
"In this world,you will have tribulation",sure,he has overcome it,but there is tribulation.

Why did he say,
"the poor you will always have with you"

Why is it written,that sin will increase,nations will rise against nations...

The Love of many will wax cold,famines ,etc...

It sounds like he knew the earth would NOT be as heaven.

So it sounds to me like you seem to only see one side of the coin.

You quote the healing verses,but deny all the suffering verses...

Here you quote the happy earth part,but deny all the things I just said here.

I mean,it seems to be a root issue with alot of wofers,you only seem to quote one side.

HAPPY,RICH,HEALTHY,SAINTS ON THE EARTH!

You forgot about the rest of the saints who have and do suffer terrible tragedies every single day!

Why dont you guys just write a new bible for yourselves,and take out all the suffering verses..:D

I mean if you keep saying what His will is,but we dont see it manifest for 2 centuries,I can only think then that God is not powerful,or something like that..

Unless of course you guys misinterpret what His will is..;)

I mean something is wrong with YOUR PICTURE.

Unless we are to believe it is all the saints fault,or it is the devil.

I thought Jesus disarmed the devil..

I mean is he God almighty,or not.

It says,"the earth is the Lords,and all it contains",sounds like he is in charge..


Maybe you guys should start realizing,His kingdom is not of this world,and stop looking for paradise here..

[Balance]

If we are going to stay purely with what Scripture states than let's look purely at the Word.

Matt 6:8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

Jesus is praying that Father's will would be done on earth as His will is done in Heaven. That means there is no difference between God's will on earth or in heaven. I'm not against praying that God's will is done on earth just the same as His will is done in heaven.

Where a good number of Christian miss it - IMO, is that they assume God has a different wills for heaven and earth.

The other verse that's quoted often is Jesus' prayer in the garden.

Luke 22:41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” 43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him.

The common mistake made here is that people take a prayer of consecration and make it into a prayer of entreaty. Somewhere they assume that because Jesus asked for "this cup to pass" (His dieing for us), is somehow equal to an illness or whatever the person is facing.

If these were the type of prayers we're to be praying - why did no one pray like this in the Epistles? Look at the Pauline Prayers -

Eph 1:15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Eph 3:14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Col 1:8 who also declared to us your love in the Spirit.
9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

And it's not just Paul who never prayed "if it be thy will" - Peter never did either. Even when he was arrested -

Acts 4:23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said:


‘ Why did the nations rage,
And the people plot vain things?
26 The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the LORD and against His Christ.’

27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”
31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

There is just no scriptural command nor precedence in praying that way for things you need.

Now if you are praying about doing something for God - I'm with you, because you need to hear God's will on going someplace to present the Gospel. And I can find evidence of God's will for someone not to go someplace to minister.

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia.

[JimfromOhio]

If we are going to stay purely with what Scripture states than let's look purely at the Word.

Matt 6:8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

Jesus is praying that Father's will would be done on earth as His will is done in Heaven. That means there is no difference between God's will on earth or in heaven. I'm not against praying that God's will is done on earth just the same as His will is done in heaven.

Where a good number of Christian miss it - IMO, is that they assume God has a different wills for heaven and earth.

The other verse that's quoted often is Jesus' prayer in the garden.

Luke 22:41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” 43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him.

The common mistake made here is that people take a prayer of consecration and make it into a prayer of entreaty. Somewhere they assume that because Jesus asked for "this cup to pass" (His dieing for us), is somehow equal to an illness or whatever the person is facing.

If these were the type of prayers we're to be praying - why did no one pray like this in the Epistles? Look at the Pauline Prayers -

Eph 1:15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Eph 3:14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Col 1:8 who also declared to us your love in the Spirit.
9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

And it's not just Paul who never prayed "if it be thy will" - Peter never did either. Even when he was arrested -

Acts 4:23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said:


‘ Why did the nations rage,
And the people plot vain things?
26 The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the LORD and against His Christ.’

27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”
31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

There is just no scriptural command nor precedence in praying that way for things you need.

Now if you are praying about doing something for God - I'm with you, because you need to hear God's will on going someplace to present the Gospel. And I can find evidence of God's will for someone not to go someplace to minister.

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia.



People are really confused about "as is in heaven". :doh:

The point is that heaven ratifies what is done on earth according to God's will but not like heaven because we still live in this sinful world. Heaven is too holy to be located in this sinful world. God the Father has already determined in heaven for us on earth is merely acting on the behalf of the will of God that the Father in heaven is acting with us with HIS GRACE. We are merely doing on earth what has already been done in heaven.

Do you want to do God's will on earth as it is in heaven? In God's grace, we are ambassadors of heaven on earth to to reflect His character and His will in OUR LIVES. NOT what we are able to get (like Heaven). As we Christians are training for our spiritual growth, we look NOT AT our faith but in Christ of WHO we have faith in, who is THE author and finisher.

Many people think they are Christians and claim to know God however when severe difficulties come into their lives, they can't really face the reality because they don't truly know Him and His Character. That's the knowledge the Bible is talking about. We have to remember that we Christians are not citizens of the earth as we are citizens of heaven. Philippians 3:20 says plainly, "Our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ." Christians have a dual citizenship however earth is a sinful place while Heaven is beautiful and sinless that we are to remember that we are citizens of heaven even though we live in a foreign world. We CAN'T live here on earth as we will in Heaven. we are in Christ His position is our position, His privilege is our privilege, His possessions are our possessions, and His practice our practice. We are significant not because of who we are, but because of who we are in Christ. As Paul said, "By the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).

[Faithful Love]

People are really confused about "as is in heaven". :doh:




On that we agree. :clap:

Some don't believe what Jesus said about it. They believe we are to be sick and broke and pitiful on earth. Jesus said we can have it here AND in heaven.




BTW, I'll take all of your shares of it down here since you only seem to want it in heaven. :P

[Balance]

People are really confused about "as is in heaven". :doh:



:doh::doh: Yes some are - because we're talking about God's will here - not the state that man lives in.

Question - will you sin in heaven?

Question - is it God's will for you to sin?

[PETE_]

It is stated here that God's will for things on Earth to be the same as they are in Heaven.

Also stated that His will on Earth is being thwarted by men.

How then will there be no sin in Heaven? Would not the same possiblity exsist for men to thwart His will in Heaven as well?

[Balance]

It is stated here that God's will for things on Earth to be the same as they are in Heaven.

Also stated that His will on Earth is being thwarted by men.

How then will there be no sin in Heaven? Would not the same possiblity exsist for men to thwart His will in Heaven as well?

Now THAT is a good question.

I'd also ask how Lucifer sinned when he was a cherub in the throne room of God!

How did 1/3 of the angels in heaven go against God's will and fall?

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

How do we know they went against God's will?

[pinetree]

If we are going to stay purely with what Scripture states than let's look purely at the Word.

Matt 6:8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

Jesus is praying that Father's will would be done on earth as His will is done in Heaven. That means there is no difference between God's will on earth or in heaven. I'm not against praying that God's will is done on earth just the same as His will is done in heaven.

Where a good number of Christian miss it - IMO, is that they assume God has a different wills for heaven and earth.

The other verse that's quoted often is Jesus' prayer in the garden.

Luke 22:41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” 43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him.

The common mistake made here is that people take a prayer of consecration and make it into a prayer of entreaty. Somewhere they assume that because Jesus asked for "this cup to pass" (His dieing for us), is somehow equal to an illness or whatever the person is facing.

If these were the type of prayers we're to be praying - why did no one pray like this in the Epistles? Look at the Pauline Prayers -

Eph 1:15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Eph 3:14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Col 1:8 who also declared to us your love in the Spirit.
9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

And it's not just Paul who never prayed "if it be thy will" - Peter never did either. Even when he was arrested -

Acts 4:23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said:


‘ Why did the nations rage,
And the people plot vain things?
26 The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the LORD and against His Christ.’

27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”
31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

There is just no scriptural command nor precedence in praying that way for things you need.

Now if you are praying about doing something for God - I'm with you, because you need to hear God's will on going someplace to present the Gospel. And I can find evidence of God's will for someone not to go someplace to minister.

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia.


how does your post,negate my post?(#22). Thank you.

[pinetree]

On that we agree. :clap:

Some don't believe what Jesus said about it. They believe we are to be sick and broke and pitiful on earth. Jesus said we can have it here AND in heaven.




BTW, I'll take all of your shares of it down here since you only seem to want it in heaven. :P
here is what you want..look,you can have it all.
it sounds like an old Frank Sinatra song..:D

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x39/kathygirl123/pot_of_gold.gif

[Balance]

how does your post,negate my post?(#22). Thank you.

I'm looking at it solely from a scriptural stand point.

Will you die in heaven?

Our differences lie in how we look at the sovereignty of God. We are at opposite ends of that view and it skews both of us.

viva le difference!

[Balance]

here is what you want..look,you can have it all.
it sounds like an old Frank Sinatra song..:D

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x39/kathygirl123/pot_of_gold.gif


Here we go again -

Why the need to be insulting? Can't we disagree without posting pictures of crap and other insulting messages - especially when the other side is saying we don't believe that way. Why the need for rudeness?

[JimfromOhio]

On that we agree. :clap:

Some don't believe what Jesus said about it. They believe we are to be sick and broke and pitiful on earth. Jesus said we can have it here AND in heaven.




BTW, I'll take all of your shares of it down here since you only seem to want it in heaven. :P
Let's look at it this way.....Jesus said in
Matthew 6:19-24: "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal; for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. The lamp of the body is the eye; if, therefore, thine eye be healthy, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If, therefore, the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! No man can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and money." Do you know if we see in our lives a happiness based in heaven or on earth? Satan was defeated in heaven, but now the earth is his domain that he wants to keep as many sinners as possible in his system and on his side. We need help from the Jesus who is in heaven and the Spirit on earth who is in our hearts. Without the intercessory work of Christ and His GRACE, we would never get to heaven. We have a faithful High Priest in heaven, and a faithful High Priest in our hearts: "The Spirit Himself maketh intercession for us" (Rom. 8:26). As much as we want to bring heaven down, as much as we want to do on earth what is being done in heaven, as much as we want to be heavenly, we can't quite make it on our own.

HEAVEN:
Revelation 3:12 says there is a temple in heaven, which the saints never leave. It is an immense, infinite, eternal temple. In fact, the Lord Himself and the Lamb are the temple (Rev. 21:22). Matthew 5:5 says, "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth." Therefore, it will then be unnecessary to pray for God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven because He will reign on earth. By the way, there are those who have tried to suggest that the Kingdom of heaven and the Kingdom of God are two different things. That is not true. The Kingdom of heaven is simply another way of saying the Kingdom of God. The reason we know that is because in Luke 8:10, a parallel passage of Matthew 13:11, "the kingdom of God" is used instead of "the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 6:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=6&verse=10&version=9&context=verse) (KJV)
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

NIV: Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

NKJV: Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

What is the will of the Father in heaven? Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven, the phrase "as it is in heaven" perceives the universal Kingdom of God, and the phrase "in earth" perceives the earthly, mediated Kingdom of God. Understanding God's Kingdom and His Sovereign, we are to pray, "God, rule on the earth the way You rule everywhere else." We are praying for Christ to reign on earth as He already does in Heaven.

People can view "God's will" differently, and it is obvious that WOF's perspective are very different from the rest of Christianity.

[Balance]

People can view "God's will" differently, and it is obvious that WOF's perspective are very different from the rest of Christianity.

No - you are mistaken here -

The verses I quoted I learned when I was with the Assemblies of God.

You're personal bias jades you.

[JimfromOhio]

:doh::doh: Yes some are - because we're talking about God's will here - not the state that man lives in.

Question - will you sin in heaven?

Question - is it God's will for you to sin?


Question - Are you still sinning on earth?

Question - Is it God's will for you to sin on earth?

[pinetree]

Here we go again -

Why the need to be insulting? Can't we disagree without posting pictures of crap and other insulting messages - especially when the other side is saying we don't believe that way. Why the need for rudeness?



now now balance..you are quite the jokster here ya know.Posting photos.
In our first heated conversation,we ever had you told me,that sometimes sarcaism proves a point..:);)

brother pinetree loves ya bro!

[JimfromOhio]

Now THAT is a good question.

I'd also ask how Lucifer sinned when he was a cherub in the throne room of God!

How did 1/3 of the angels in heaven go against God's will and fall?



Lucifer fell because of his pride and became Satan. It was pride that made him fell. Desire to be equal or be like God is PRIDE. The very FIRST SIN occurred in heaven by Lucifer (Satan) was related to selfishness (wanting to be equal to God). One-third of all the angels fell according to Revelation 12, it says, "When the dragon fell he took one third of the stars with him." So there are two-third holy angels and one third fallen angels. Lucifer fell from Heaven due to pride. Pride also will lead people to hell. Lucifer fell because of his pride and became Satan. It was pride that made him fell. When Lucifer (who became Satan) sinned due to pride: "I will cast off God's rule. I am too great to be bound by it. I shall declare myself autonomous. I will be like the Most High" (Isaiah 14:14) When talking about faith, James 2:19 (New International Version) You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder

[JimfromOhio]

No - you are mistaken here -

The verses I quoted I learned when I was with the Assemblies of God.

You're personal bias jades you.

There are times that I deal with my own "theological bias" however I know the definition of God's will. If I am correct, most of Assemblies of God doctrines are in agreement with WOF?

[habeas]

James said, 13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.” 16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. (James 4)

And Paul told the Corinthians, 19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord wills, and I will know, not the word of those who are puffed up, but the power. (1 Cor. 4)



If these were not scriptures you posted, this would be considered a flame!
Who on earth knows the will of God in every single circumstance touching every matter? I should like to know...

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Some don't believe what Jesus said about it. They believe we are to be sick and broke and pitiful on earth. Jesus said we can have it here AND in heaven.

Matt 19:23-24
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 18:18-25
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 8:34-38
34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Matt 16:24-26
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Matt 10:37-39
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Luke 16:13-15
13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Wow, sure does not sound like Christ saying we can have our cake and eat it too. quite the opposite in fact. It would seem for those who want good things of the Kingdom, that expecting a bit of earthly sacrifice to be demanded, extracted from, and made by themselves would be in order.

BUT ... some have itching ears indeed ...............

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

also Matt 6:19-24:
Matthew 6:19-24: "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal; for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. The lamp of the body is the eye; if, therefore, thine eye be healthy, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If, therefore, the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

[habeas]

How on earth do you spin the beatitudes in Luke? Jesus's message is as radical today after all these years, and so people turn from it and make up doctrines less offensive to their flesh.

Luke 6:20-26

Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
Blessed are you who are hungry now,
for you will be filled.
Blessed are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.
Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you, revile you, and defame you on account of the Son of Man.
Rejoice in that Day and leap for joy, for surely your reward is great in heaven; for that is what their ancestors did to the prophets.
But woe to you who are rich,
for you have received your consolation.
Woe to you who are full now,
for you will be hungry.
Woe to you who are laughing now,
for you will mourn and weep.
Woe to you when all speak well of you, for that is what their ancestors did to the false prophets

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

How on earth do you spin the beatitudes in Luke? Jesus's message is as radical today after all these years, and so people turn from it and make up doctrines less offensive to their flesh.

Luke 6:20-26

Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
Blessed are you who are hungry now,
for you will be filled.
Blessed are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.
Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you, revile you, and defame you on account of the Son of Man.
Rejoice in that Day and leap for joy, for surely your reward is great in heaven; for that is what their ancestors did to the prophets.
But woe to you who are rich,
for you have received your consolation.
Woe to you who are full now,
for you will be hungry.
Woe to you who are laughing now,
for you will mourn and weep.
Woe to you when all speak well of you, for that is what their ancestors did to the false prophets

^^ QFT ^^

Anyone who turns Jesus Christ into a cheerleader or worse, foundational pillar for maintaining a capitalist status quo has been thoroughly deceived by the modern conceits of Western hemisphere nationalism and the Babylonian intoxicant (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2018:2-3;&version=9;) of right-wing political rhetoric carefully distilled in their brainwash stills ("think tanks") and distributed to the masses to hijack their moral and spiritual sensibilities.

[ewkenyon2]

"before he has pledged his word he was free to do as it pleased him; but after he has made a promise, his truth & honor bind him to do as he said. to him, indeed, this is no limiting of his liberty; for the promise is always the declaration of his sovereign will & good pleasure, & it is ever his delight to act according to his word"
"according to promise"
"charles spurgeon" copyright 1890pg#69

"faith does not move the hand of god, the hand of god has already moved & faith simply receives what god now offers as a gift"
"max ridgeway"
"from dwight davis ministries"

"....the faith of god-it exercises the power of god & is irresistible... the master of all girds the servant with his own power & in-trusts him with authority to command. faith not only the blessing but power to bless....

"lessons in the school of prayer"
"a.t. pierson"copyright 1895 pg#97

my dear brother troy(a.k.a. victoryword) it is always a deep pleasure to read your faith-filled, sense making, in-depth teachings.

it is the true gift of a teacher, line upon line, precept upon precept, shepherding the flock of god into healthy pastures to nourish their health & life, as the heart of a pastor stands steady in the face of feisty sheep kicking up their heels, wanting to eat from their own pickings, not seeing the full benefit of lusher pastures.

brother balance, as always, you kindly steer the sheep towards the true path, using the staff of the word to reign in headstrong wanders, bringing light to the difference between "the known will of god" in the word from our redemption through the work of christ, & where at times for our own personal daily & future life we must indeed seek the father for the path we must take.

but, indeed, as troy has stated, we must never doubt the fathers good will for us, our redemption in christ is full, complete & ongoing everyday, our liberation from the lineage of adam, all that entered into the first man due to his fall, & our death to the realm & authority of satan, we as new men in the creation of the new man, christ,we stand exactly as he is now, free, redeemed, made alive with the life of god, healed, triumphant over all things.


in a book by ken jr. titled," the prison door is open, what are you waiting for" holds true for us today, the father has moved in the fact of redemption, now as the father told the son who had stayed when his brother left , (luke 15
:31 amplified" 'son, all that is mine is yours".

we are redeemed, lets stop making excuses for doubt or unbelief, lets swallow our pride, & say you know what, i know he is for me, his will is good, I'm am as christ is even now, & if my experience isn't lining up with the redemption in the work of christ, then the problem lies here with me, not an easy pill for the religious mindset to swallow, but as one pastor friend of mine has said, recognition is the first step to recovery

"in union with christ'
scott

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

we are redeemed, lets stop making excuses for doubt or unbelief, lets swallow our pride, & say you know what, i know he is for me, his will is good, I'm am as christ is even now, & if my experience isn't lining up with the redemption in the work of christ, then the problem lies here with me, not an easy pill for the religious mindset to swallow, but as one pastor friend of mine has said, recognition is the first step to recovery
Actually, Scott, the issue here does not appear to be whether one's experience lines up with the redemptive work of Christ or not, but rather, one of understanding exactly what that redemptive work DOES result in for all of us versus what others might claim it results in, for various reasons of their own. Such claims may be in error and thus lead to unnecessary disappointment, bitterness, and even full shipwreck of faith for those who believe in them wholeheartedly yet do not see them manifested in their lives. This spiritual cognitive dissonance will then naturally lead to having soul-searching, heart-wrenching, meaning-probing HONEST QUESTIONS -- about themselves, about God, about their own expectations, and about the nature of Reality as a Believer -- that they need to ask and work through, and will naturally lead to disagreement with those upholding those claims.

These do NOT constitute "excuses" or "pride" and frankly, it seems to Moriah a very discouraging and counterproductive course indeed -- not to mention quite realistically indicative of its own pockets of deadly pride -- to resort to mischaracterizing others' struggles and disparaging them in this way. Coming to grips with the irritants in one's flesh that poke through into one's personality and interactions can be difficult enough without having to suffer pseudo-pious false characterizations by others of good things indicative of growth and honesty as if they bes evil things indicative of sin, pride, laziness, "excuse making", or rebellion.

Scripture does not recommend such a course (i.e., labeling and judging others' struggles as sin or truth-avoidance) but rather exhorts that we forbear with one another in love, remembering our own weaknesses and need of His grace, and place one another in the best light possible. If you need the actual scriptures for these recommendations Moriah would be glad to dig them up and retrieve them for you (fetch, Moriah--WoF! WoF! ^_^) but anyone truly familiar with the written Word will recognize immediately the accuracy of this statement and be familiar with the scriptures it invokes indirectly.

[probinson]

Why is so distasteful to some to follow Jesus’ clear instructions, “When you pray say, Your will be done.” Was Jesus guilty of fatalism when He prayed, “Not my will but Yours be done”?

I really don’t get what your problem is in doing as Christ told you to do and in following Christ’s example. :scratch:


When Jesus prayed "Not my will but Yours be done", He knew darn right well what God's will was for Him. THAT is the example of Jesus.

However, far too many people try to use as the example this when they DON'T know God's will, which is not what Jesus was saying or doing. So if you're going to use this as the example, you also need to realize that Jesus already knew what the will of God was, and was simply surrendering to His will.

[pinetree]

Matt 19:23-24
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 18:18-25
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 8:34-38
34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Matt 16:24-26
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Matt 10:37-39
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Luke 16:13-15
13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Wow, sure does not sound like Christ saying we can have our cake and eat it too. quite the opposite in fact. It would seem for those who want good things of the Kingdom, that expecting a bit of earthly sacrifice to be demanded, extracted from, and made by themselves would be in order.

BUT ... some have itching ears indeed ...............
yup,:thumbsup:

[pinetree]

When Jesus prayed "Not my will but Yours be done", He knew darn right well what God's will was for Him. THAT is the example of Jesus.

However, far too many people try to use as the example this when they DON'T know God's will, which is not what Jesus was saying or doing. So if you're going to use this as the example, you also need to realize that Jesus already knew what the will of God was, and was simply surrendering to His will.
excuse me,Pete,do you always know Gods will?:)

[probinson]

excuse me,Pete,do you always know Gods will?:)
No.

[probinson]

Of course, before I pray for anything, I renew my mind to find out what God's will is (Romans 12:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)) so that I don't ask amiss or with wrong motives (James 4:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=4&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)) and because I do this, I can go boldly to the throne room of grace in time of need (Hebrews 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=4&verse=16&version=9&context=verse)) and I can be confident that He hears me, and because I know He hears me, I know I have whatever it is I ask of Him (1 John 5:14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=5&verse=14&end_verse=15&version=31&context=context)). I also must make sure that I am not tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine (Ephesians 4:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)) and when I ask, I must believe and not doubt (James 1:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=1&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)). Otherwise, I shouldn't expect to receive anything from God (James 1:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=1&verse=7&version=31&context=verse))

[pinetree]

No.
ok:)

[pinetree]

:)