You Pray for someone and they are not healed - What Next

[he4rty]

I don't care what camp your in, you pray for someone and they are not healed so what do you do next

Tell them they have no faith or God must be teaching them something and leave it at that

or

Offer to help them search there soul for the possible answer

[BenAdam]

Simple really, you put guilt on them by telling them they don't have enough faith, after all God's Word guarantees healing.

[he4rty]

Simple really, you put guilt on them by telling them they don't have enough faith, after all God's Word guarantees healing.

Although I sway more to your direction, having someone tell me it must be Gods will for you to be sick, he must be rebuking you, sounds just as bad.

So do you help these people find the root cause or as Ben said just leave 'em with the guilt trip and floundering.

[JimfromOhio]

In this life it is inevitable and it is useful because it produces the evidence of our true spiritual condition, humility and intimacy with God and allows God to put Himself on display in His grace. Trusting God is more important than healing because I trust God, Who is always making provisions for my future according to His will by providing and guiding for His glory. With that in mind, I am reminded that "God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work." (2 Corinthians 9:8). Grace of heart is a gift from God and this has nothing to do with the thorns because God change our circumstances by changing us internally, by allowing Him to lift us above our present thorn and He will lead us into His will.

If we come to Christ primarily to find fulfillment or to escape from bad habits or negative circumstances, Jesus may not be what we are looking for. Victory is the Holy Spirit convicted us and Christ is us, we all experience the power of the Holy Spirit to gain victory over sin, we may never attain total dominance over our drives and passions. Jesus is the Great Deliverer, through whom we have victory over sin, death and hell. In Christ we have all the power we will ever need.

[Jimbeaux]

I don't care what camp your in, you pray for someone and they are not healed so what do you do next

Tell them they have no faith or God must be teaching them something and leave it at that

or

Offer to help them search there soul for the possible answer

I do not feel obligated to tell them anything because I do not have a doctrine to defend when it does not work like I told them it would.

I can honestly say that we have done all that we can do, pray, and God will have to do the rest. All we have to do is submit to Him, trust Him that He will do what is best and what is right just as He always does.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Jimbeaux]

Although I sway more to your direction, having someone tell me it must be Gods will for you to be sick, he must be rebuking you, sounds just as bad.

So do you help these people find the root cause or as Ben said just leave 'em with the guilt trip and floundering.

Why do you feel obligated to tell people you pray for anything? Your job is not to teach them theology; it is to pray for them. If anything needs to be taught, let the Holy Spirit do it.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[he4rty]

In this life it is inevitable and it is useful because it produces the evidence of our true spiritual condition, humility and intimacy with God and allows God to put Himself on display in His grace. Trusting God is more important than healing because I trust God, Who is always making provisions for my future according to His will by providing and guiding for His glory. With that in mind, I am reminded that "God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work." (2 Corinthians 9:8). Grace of heart is a gift from God and this has nothing to do with the thorns because God change our circumstances by changing us internally, by allowing Him to lift us above our present thorn and He will lead us into His will.

If we come to Christ primarily to find fulfillment or to escape from bad habits or negative circumstances, Jesus may not be what we are looking for. Victory is the Holy Spirit convicted us and Christ is us, we all experience the power of the Holy Spirit to gain victory over sin, we may never attain total dominance over our drives and passions. Jesus is the Great Deliverer, through whom we have victory over sin, death and hell. In Christ we have all the power we will ever need.

So would you come along side your brother or sister in Christ and help them through prayer find that fulfilment even if there symptoms remain, or just tell them this paragraph and leave them be.

[he4rty]

Why do you feel obligated to tell people you pray for anything? Your job is not to teach them theology; it is to pray for them. If anything needs to be taught, let the Holy Spirit do it.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



I agree, let the Holy Spirit do it, but are you willing to help them in seeking the Spirit for the need in there life.

[Jimbeaux]

I agree, let the Holy Spirit do it, but are you willing to help them in seeking the Spirit for the need in there life.

If I am so directed to, I will. But I do not feel it is my responsibility to be their mediator. God is quite capable of dealing with a believer with or without my assistance. The church has survived twenty centuries without me. Sometimes (too many times, I fear) I just get in the way.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[JimfromOhio]

So would you come along side your brother or sister in Christ and help them through prayer find that fulfilment even if there symptoms remain, or just tell them this paragraph and leave them be.

I am one of them. ;)

Faith healing preachers often leave out GRACE when healing don't happen. They are told to work on their faith if they want to be healed. That's not what the Bible says. There is so much focus on the merit of faith but not enough of grace of faith. There's lack of full understanding of the true meaning of Grace.
Ephesians 3:7
I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of His power.
2 Corinthians 12:9 (My personal favorite)
But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I (Paul) will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

Through God's GRACE, Jesus is the Great Deliverer, through whom we have victory over sin, death and hell. In Christ we have all the power we will ever need. When you are filled with the Holy Spirit, then Jesus through His GRACE just flows out of you because if you DON'T, trying to do the Lord's work in your own strength is the most confusing, exhausting, and tedious of all work. It is God's will for us to be Spirit-filled (Ephesians 5:17-18). Some stumble because they rely on their own works rather than the Holy Spirit. Christian faith is inward, not outward because we are in the spirit and not in the flesh. In Ephesians 5:18 where the present tense of the verb in Greek means: "Keep on being filled with the Spirit".

This is one of my favorites:
The main thing to understand and remember is that Jesus is OUR SHEPHERD that He will supply all OUR needs (Phil. 4:19) and that He knows everything about OUR LIVES (Ps. 139:3), cares about US (1 Pet. 5:7), has the power for every difficulty (Ps. 62:11), is perfecting US to be like Christ (Phil. 1:6), and that nothing escapes Him (Ps. 147:5), that will lead US to be stable, not anxious living in His GRACE.

How?
1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.

[BenAdam]

Although I sway more to your direction, having someone tell me it must be Gods will for you to be sick, he must be rebuking you, sounds just as bad.

So do you help these people find the root cause or as Ben said just leave 'em with the guilt trip and floundering.

I was using hyperbole in my statement. But that is the obvious end of the healing is guaranteed for everyone all the time dogma. If we don't get healed and it is guaranteed, it is our fault, period. No grace, no comfort, only guilt.

I comfort when I can, I weep with those that weep and rejoice with those that rejoice. I certainly don't have all the answers except that Jesus is Lord.

[Optimax]

I don't care what camp your in, you pray for someone and they are not healed so what do you do next

Tell them they have no faith or God must be teaching them something and leave it at that

or

Offer to help them search there soul for the possible answer

When that happens I offer to help them further.

What they need is time spent in God's word concerning healing. This includes the four gospels in every instance that Jesus healed someone.
Particular attention to the man who told Jesus "I know you can, but will you".

Also the scripture(s) that say that God is no respector of persons because as it was his will to heal them it is hsi will to heal everyone.

Healing is not an actual guarantee as that would mean it was automatic to any Christian that was or became sick.

Healing is made available to every Christian by faith.

That means if one is to receive healing then one must learn what faith is, how it works and how to do faith on purpose.

[dkbwarrior]

I have a booklet of promises that I put together myself and print on my computer. When I pray for someone and healing is not manifested immediately, I give them the book and encourage them to meditate in and memorize the verses, and confess them out loud every day.

I tell them that they may have need of patience, to wait for the manifestation of their healing.

35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
-Hebrews 10:35-36

I tell them to hold fast the profession of their faith without wavering, because He is faithful that promised.

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
-Hebrews 10:23

If you waver, (that is, profess something different from what you believe you receive), then you likely will not receive anything.

6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
-James 1:6-8

I never tell someone that they lack faith because they don't see healing immediately. This is one of those strawmen that isn't really true.

The only time I tell someone that they lack faith is when they say that they don't believe they receive healing when they pray for it.

Jesus said that faith in God believes it receives what it asks for when it prays. If we pray, and they say they don't believe they have received, then we will have to work on their faith.

22And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
-Mark 11;22-24

I have stated many times on these forums, that a persons circumstance is no indicator of their faith. After all, alot of relatively healthy people don't have any faith, they are just lucky so far. Alot of them aren't even Christians.

The only indicator of a persons faith is their words. The confession of belief that one speaks is the evidence of their faith. (Faith is the evidence of things not seen...). After all, many are born with disibilities, and sickness is an equal opportunity attacker. One may well be in the stage of patience between believing and seeing, thus the circumstance of being sick or disabled is no indication of ones faith.

2My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
-James 1:2-4

Do you understand this?

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

I have a booklet of promises that I put together myself and print on my computer. When I pray for someone and healing is not manifested immediately, I give them the book and encourage them to meditate in and memorize the verses, and confess them out loud every day.

I tell them that they may have need of patience, to wait for the manifestation of their healing.

35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
-Hebrews 10:35-36

I tell them to hold fast the profession of their faith without wavering, because He is faithful that promised.

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
-Hebrews 10:23

If you waver, (that is, profess something different from what you believe you receive), then you likely will not receive anything.

6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
-James 1:6-8

I never tell someone that they lack faith because they don't see healing immediately. This is one of those strawmen that isn't really true.

The only time I tell someone that they lack faith is when they say that they don't believe they receive healing when they pray for it.

Jesus said that faith in God believes it receives what it asks for when it prays. If we pray, and they say they don't believe they have received, then we will have to work on their faith.

22And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
-Mark 11;22-24

I have stated many times on these forums, that a persons circumstance is no indicator of their faith. After all, alot of relatively healthy people don't have any faith, they are just lucky so far. Alot of them aren't even Christians.

The only indicator of a persons faith is their words. The confession of belief that one speaks is the evidence of their faith. (Faith is the evidence of things not seen...). After all, many are born with disibilities, and sickness is an equal opportunity attacker. One may well be in the stage of patience between believing and seeing, thus the circumstance of being sick or disabled is no indication of ones faith.

2My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
-James 1:2-4

Do you understand this?

Peace...
Many Christians take sufferings with despair and despondency, others despise them, some feel God is far off.

Instead of trust, doubt comes.

Instead of quietness, turmoil comes.

Instead of contentment, resentment comes.

Instead of hope—knowing God is perfecting us, that the testing of our patience has a perfect work—instead of hope and giving of thanks, thoughts of bitterness arise toward God.

Sufferings attempts to tempt us and trials to bring out the WORST in us (see: James 1:13-14).

As we Christians are training for our spiritual growth, we look NOT AT our faith but in Christ of WHO we have faith in, who is THE author and finisher. "Let us run with patience the race that is set before us." (Hebrews 12:1). The Holy Spirit tells us to keep our eyes on Jesus not on others who are also running the race! There are important things each of us should know and understand about our struggles as the faithful people of God.

James says trials have a perfecting work. Peter says after you've suffered a while the Lord will make you perfect. God uses suffering to reveal our spiritual condition. Trials come to us to reveal what we really love. Many Christians take trials with despair and despondency, others despise them, some feel God is far off. Instead of trust, doubt comes. Instead of quietness, turmoil comes. Instead of contentment, resentment comes. Instead of hope—knowing God is perfecting us, that the testing of our patience has a perfect work—instead of hope and giving of thanks, thoughts of bitterness arise toward God. Many people think they are Christians and claim to know God however when severe difficulties come into their lives, they can't really face the reality because they don't truly know Him and His Character. That they were unable to deal with the sufferings and not being healed, their faith is revealed to be dead because of "worrying" and other human negative emotional reactions.

Sufferings are intended to train Christians out of their worldly security and awaken them to the fact that they are to TRUST God during their sufferings but at the same time, don't trust yourself or trust your faith. TRUST GOD. In the book of James, the entire letter is about living faith during sufferings and list the tests intended to reveal the legitimacy of someone's faith. The VERY first test is the test of severe sufferings which means that we need to understand the strength or the genuineness of our own faith in God's GRACE. Sufferings cannot destroy true faith; they only put it to the test and strengthen it as in spiritual training.

Sufferings produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. (Romans 5:3-4) Suffering experiences may be viewed as coming from God to bring out the BEST in us (See: Gen. 22:1-2, 15-18; Hebrews 11:17).

If one is not healed, focus on God and His will to use your spiritual gifts rather than working on faith to get healed.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Although I sway more to your direction, having someone tell me it must be Gods will for you to be sick, he must be rebuking you, sounds just as bad.
Agree, they both sound bad. Which means, of course, that there must be unexplored alternatives out there, amongst which must lie the truth, waiting to be discovered. Since God cannot suck. Right? ;)

Generally for Moriah the best places to point someone continuing to suffer in spite of faith would be the book of Job -- and let THEM wrestle with what it means between themselves and God; do not try to impose your meaning upon it for them. When they finish coming to grips with it, they will have an understanding of what it means to, like Paul, have a thorn in the flesh which God has decided to leave there (at least for the time being) and to rely on His grace NOT to take it conveniently out of the way but to be present to lift them up THROUGH it, IN it, DESPITE it, proving Himself sufficient to meet them there. This bes a God who permeates everywhere; even the depths of the Abyss offer no escape from His presence (Psalm 139:7-8). There bes quite literally nowhere we can go that He bes not. Meditate on that awhile and stop limiting Him. It bes not our experiences and circumstances that need changing. It bes our awareness of Him through them, our attitudes about them, and how we perceive them. He has greater goals in mind -- just like the parent potty training the kid has something more important in mind than keeping the kid clean and dry for the rest of his life, and that means sometimes, as nasty as it seems, letting the kid feel the wet and soil as part of the training so he will be motivated to get with the program and not be in diapers still at the age of 10. ^_^

[GreatistheLord]

I was using hyperbole in my statement. But that is the obvious end of the healing is guaranteed for everyone all the time dogma. If we don't get healed and it is guaranteed, it is our fault, period. No grace, no comfort, only guilt.

I comfort when I can, I weep with those that weep and rejoice with those that rejoice. I certainly don't have all the answers except that Jesus is Lord.

There are many reasons why people don't get healed. WOF, as far as I am concerned, does not guarantee healing. The only people who say that are anti-WOFers who are allegedly quoting someone.

WOF believes that it is always God's will to heal, with the exception of God's sovereign timing (and then it is not IF but WHEN). The reasons people dont receive healing are mostly to do with unbelief, sin, demonic oppression, generational curses, unforgiveness, lack of patience....... Things we've *all* have to deal with. This, is why it takes time, as the person repents of things in their life, healing comes.

We are not usually in the place where we can explain all the reasons why people dont get healed, and it is not the time or place either. Healings are not always instant, so I would encourage them to believe. Giving them 10 reasons why God doesn't heal will not help their faith!

We have a simple mandate, to pray for the sick and believe. God and the Holy spirit will do the rest.

[Elijah2]

I don't care what camp your in, you pray for someone and they are not healed so what do you do next

Tell them they have no faith or God must be teaching them something and leave it at that

or

Offer to help them search there soul for the possible answer

Hey mate, when we suffer sickness, our sickness can be caused by self-infliction, poor standard of living, a trauma, emotional, mental, and/or spiritual.

Many healings we hear about, but we never really experience seeing the miracle of healing, are only hearsay.

Mate, I've seen people healed, and within seven days they lose their healing. Why, did they lose their healing, it wasn't because of lack of faith, but a lack of foundation in His Word, in our Lord Jesus Christ, and still sinning.

People expect prayer to perform like magic. They say, "NOW if I pray in faith, then you must be healed! Right!" Blind discipline and obedience doesn't heal.

It all comes down to good foundation in His Word and in HIM, and believing deepdown within your heart that the healing will come. Now whether it comes now, tomorrow, seven days later, seven months later, or seven years later, that all depends up many factors of the rules and principles of our Almighty God, our Lord Jesus Christ who those things in motion at Creation.

Don't beat yourself up, or even try to explain it away. It's in HIS WILL, and HIS WILL, will be done, in HIS Time.

Some say, that it's not the "receiver", but the "transmitter". I've seen where some who lay hands on the sick, are not right with our Lord Jesus Christ, and I've seen those people get sicker.

Meeting Specific Needs

“Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. (Therefore), confess your trespasses (sins) to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.”

Bring Back the Erring One

“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a (his) soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.” (James 5:13-20)

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

[Jimbeaux]

We don’t have to tell them anything.

Why do we feel it is necessary to “explain” everything? Who called us to always teach people. Your job, and mine, is to pray for one another, not give them conflicting advice. What happens when we feel it necessary to teach a poor seeker is to confuse them because if he has asked anyone else he has probably already gotten some conflicting advice from what you are telling him. Of course, our advice is “correct” as was the last person with conflicting advice and will be the next one.

Maybe this is why there is so much confusion among us—everyone is a teacher.

Here’s a sober warning for us all …
My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. (James 3.1)

You have been believers so long now that you ought to be teaching others. Instead, you need someone to teach you again the basic things about God’s word. You are like babies who need milk and cannot eat solid food.(Hebrews 5.12)
~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[dkbwarrior]

I have a booklet of promises that I put together myself and print on my computer. When I pray for someone and healing is not manifested immediately, I give them the book and encourage them to meditate in and memorize the verses, and confess them out loud every day.

I tell them that they may have need of patience, to wait for the manifestation of their healing.

35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
-Hebrews 10:35-36

I tell them to hold fast the profession of their faith without wavering, because He is faithful that promised.

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
-Hebrews 10:23

If you waver, (that is, profess something different from what you believe you receive), then you likely will not receive anything.

6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
-James 1:6-8

I never tell someone that they lack faith because they don't see healing immediately. This is one of those strawmen that isn't really true.

The only time I tell someone that they lack faith is when they say that they don't believe they receive healing when they pray for it.

Jesus said that faith in God believes it receives what it asks for when it prays. If we pray, and they say they don't believe they have received, then we will have to work on their faith.

22And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
-Mark 11;22-24

I have stated many times on these forums, that a persons circumstance is no indicator of their faith. After all, alot of relatively healthy people don't have any faith, they are just lucky so far. Alot of them aren't even Christians.

The only indicator of a persons faith is their words. The confession of belief that one speaks is the evidence of their faith. (Faith is the evidence of things not seen...). After all, many are born with disibilities, and sickness is an equal opportunity attacker. One may well be in the stage of patience between believing and seeing, thus the circumstance of being sick or disabled is no indication of ones faith.

2My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
-James 1:2-4

Do you understand this?

Peace...

If you are truly interested in what others believe about this and not just wanting to throw stones, then I encourage you to read this.

It is a misconception to say that WOF tells people that they lack faith if they are not yet healed.

Healing comes by faith, but that doesn't mean that if one is not yet healed, they don't have faith.

But if someone says that they have not received, and faith is believing you received, then by definition they don't have faith for healing.

Peace...

[Balance]

If you are truly interested in what others believe about this and not just wanting to throw stones, then I encourage you to read this.

It is a misconception to say that WOF tells people that they lack faith if they are not yet healed.

Healing comes by faith, but that doesn't mean that if one is not yet healed, they don't have faith.

But if someone says that they have not received, and faith is believing you received, then by definition they don't have faith for healing.

Peace...


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Reps to you! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Tamara224]

If you are truly interested in what others believe about this and not just wanting to throw stones, then I encourage you to read this.

It is a misconception to say that WOF tells people that they lack faith if they are not yet healed.

Healing comes by faith, but that doesn't mean that if one is not yet healed, they don't have faith.

But if someone says that they have not received, and faith is believing you received, then by definition they don't have faith for healing.

Peace...

Um... You just contradicted yourself.

If WoF's definition of faith is "believe you received" and people don't receive then WoF, by definition, is telling people they don't have faith.

That's what you just said - by your definition of faith, people who don't get healed, don't have faith.

So...how can you say you don't tell people they don't have faith?!?!

YOU JUST TOLD EVERYONE THAT IF THEY DON'T RECEIVE HEALING IT'S BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE FAITH FOR HEALING!

[dkbwarrior]

Um... You just contradicted yourself.

If WoF's definition of faith is "believe you received" and people don't receive then WoF, by definition, is telling people they don't have faith.

That's what you just said - by your definition of faith, people who don't get healed, don't have faith.

So...how can you say you don't tell people they don't have faith?!?!

YOU JUST TOLD EVERYONE THAT IF THEY DON'T RECEIVE HEALING IT'S BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE FAITH FOR HEALING!

No, I did not say that. Nowhere did I say that faith was receiving. You may want to read my post more closley. Faith is not receiving. Faith is believing you receive.

Quite a difference. Peoples words reflect what it is that they believe. When someone says that they don't believe they received, then that is evidence of lack of faith.

If faith was receiving, then it wouldn't be faith. You don't need to have faith to believe something that you can clearly see. Faith is the evidence of things you cannot see. Faith is believing you receive, when you don't yet see it.

Let me quote that sentence again:

But if someone says that they have not received, and faith is believing you received, then by definition they don't have faith for healing.

I even highlighted the word says in my original post so that it would not be missed. But apparently you missed it any ways.

Peace...

[Tamara224]

No, I did not say that. Nowhere did I say that faith was receiving. You may want to read my post more closley. Faith is not receiving. Faith is believing you receive.

Quite a difference. Peoples words reflect what it is that they believe. When someone says that they don't believe they received, then that is evidence of lack of faith.

If faith was receiving, then it wouldn't be faith. You don't need to have faith to believe something that you can clearly see. Faith is the evidence of things you cannot see. Faith is believing you receive, when you don't yet see it.

Let me quote that sentence again:



I even highlighted the word says in my original post so that it would not be missed. But apparently you missed it any ways.

Peace...


I didn't miss it, I just didn't realize what your semantics game was. Thanks for clarifying.

So, as long as a person believes they've received something they haven't, in actual fact, received, then they have faith. But if they admit that they are still, in fact/reality, suffering from sickness, then they don't have faith.

Gotcha.

It's doublespeak. Faith = lying.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

While Moriah can see the difference between saying "faith = receiving" versus "faith = believing you receive", and while it would agree the latter seems a better definition of faith indeed, it, too, has the same difficulty parsing this that Tamara expresses above. By this definition, faith means lying to oneself. GOD may have the ability to call things which be not as though they already bes, but creatures-in-flesh do not. When we claim something bes so that does not actually exist, we have borne false witness. Since God does not contradict Himself, He certainly cannot have made "faith" to mean breaking the 9th commandment that He Himself uttered and wrote with His own finger literally IN STONE. So there must be something missing from the equation here in terms of defining faith.

Thoughts?

[JimfromOhio]

If you are truly interested in what others believe about this and not just wanting to throw stones, then I encourage you to read this.

It is a misconception to say that WOF tells people that they lack faith if they are not yet healed.

Healing comes by faith, but that doesn't mean that if one is not yet healed, they don't have faith.

But if someone says that they have not received, and faith is believing you received, then by definition they don't have faith for healing.

Peace...
"even our" in 1 John 5:4 ?

KJV
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

NIV
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

2 Corinthians 12:9
God Said: "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness (even when my faith is weak)."

Paul responded: Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

[dkbwarrior]

Double Post, sorry...

[dkbwarrior]

I didn't miss it, I just didn't realize what your semantics game was. Thanks for clarifying.

So, as long as a person believes they've received something they haven't, in actual fact, received, then they have faith. But if they admit that they are still, in fact/reality, suffering from sickness, then they don't have faith.

Gotcha.

It's doublespeak. Faith = lying.


While Moriah can see the difference between saying "faith = receiving" versus "faith = believing you receive", and while it would agree the latter seems a better definition of faith indeed, it, too, has the same difficulty parsing this that Tamara expresses above. By this definition, faith means lying to oneself. GOD may have the ability to call things which be not as though they already bes, but creatures-in-flesh do not. When we claim something bes so that does not actually exist, we have borne false witness. Since God does not contradict Himself, He certainly cannot have made "faith" to mean breaking the 9th commandment that He Himself uttered and wrote with His own finger literally IN STONE. So there must be something missing from the equation here in terms of defining faith.

Thoughts?

I understand the concern. And I think this is where there is alot of confusion and misunderstanding, on both sides.

Alot of this confusion comes from the WOF side, where zealous but immature believers have not yet worked this out for themselves, and some comes from the critics side, who often are more interested in criticizing and finding fault, than truly trying to understand what it is that we believe.

Often, I would not bite here Tamara, it really wouldn't be worth the verbal fight, you know? But because Moriah has made a sincere atttempt to converse about this, and you seem at the least to be trying to wrap your head around it, I will try to explain.

Please forgive any verbal inadequacies I present here, and give me a chance to try to clarify any confusion before you throw me out the window with the dishwater if I explain something incorrectly. :)

I do not think that we should be lying. It has taken me some years to find ways to express my faith for healing that are both honest and believing. For instance, if there is a flu virus attacking me, and someone asks me how I am doing, instead of saying "I am fine", (which would be a lie), or, "I am sick with the flu", (which would be a confession of unbelief), I say something like, "I'm fighting the flu right now, but I believe I am healed by the stripes of Jesus. I would appreciate it if you would come into agreement with me for my healing."

I have come up with similar sayings for every common thing that attacks us, from colds to headaches. It takes a little forethought, and it requires us to change the normal habit of speaking that we have aquired over our lifetime, but how could that be a bad thing?

I don't know about you guys, but I grew up saying things like, "Don't get too close, you might catch my cold." Or, "I need to take some asprin for my headache."

It takes some effort and forethought to change these manners of speaking that we have aquired. I never use the word "my" to describe a sickness or disease or disability anymore. They are not mine. They just happen to be attacking me right now, but they don't belong to me. I refuse to own them with my speech.

Healing, on the other hand, is mine. Jesus purchased it for me by the stripes on his back (have you seen The Passion of the Christ?, that will give one pause, when one realizes what Jesus went through just to purchase our healing, and if He thought it was that important, who are we to despise it?), and gave it to me freely, with no charge. I will not allow the enemy to steal it from me.

I agree with you that we should not be deceptive. But there is a way to confess your faith without being deceptive. If one wants to do so.

Peace...

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Thanks for the explanation DKB. And don't worry, Moriah will not defenestrate you! ^_^

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/PrairieDell/BlogPicts/DefenestrationKaira.jpg

[bliz]

When I pray for someone's healing, and they are not healed, I just keep praying.

I have a friend who has some major physical problems and her body is both deformed and parts of her body are do not functional I asked her about others who tell her to pray for healing. She assured me that she has prayed her entire lie or healing and is usually told that if she only had a little more faith, she would be healed. I asked how she responded to that. Her answer, as best I can remember:

"When they tell me I don't have enough faith, I take my good hand and put it around the front of their throats, just to get their full attention. Then I ask them if they believe that God loves them. They always say yes. I then explain that when I wake up every morning in this body, I believe that God loves me. Now, which of us has more faith? - you in your body, or I in mine?"

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I have a friend who has some major physical problems and her body is both deformed and parts of her body are do not functional I asked her about others who tell her to pray for healing. She assured me that she has prayed her entire lie or healing and is usually told that if she only had a little more faith, she would be healed. I asked how she responded to that. Her answer, as best I can remember:

"When they tell me I don't have enough faith, I take my good hand and put it around the front of their throats, just to get their full attention. Then I ask them if they believe that God loves them. They always say yes. I then explain that when I wake up every morning in this body, I believe that God loves me. Now, which of us has more faith? - you in your body, or I in mine?"

FINALLY!!!! Nail, head, BANG. YES!!!!!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:
That bes EXACTLY what Moriah has been trying to say ALL ALONG when ppls trouble it about it being inhabited and not yet delivered, when they refuse to believe it does love and trust in God and don't understand how He could let something like this go on and therefore conclude Moriah must be lying or something. You have just said in two paragraphs what Moriah has spent the past YEAR on CF trying to explain (and finally just gave up and started keeping its "issues" mostly to itself).

THANK YOU Bliz/

[bliz]

Bear with me... I am trying to understand what you believe...


It has taken me some years to find ways to express my faith for healing that are both honest and believing. For instance, if there is a flu virus attacking me, and someone asks me how I am doing, instead of saying "I am fine", (which would be a lie), or, "I am sick with the flu", (which would be a confession of unbelief), I say something like, "I'm fighting the flu right now, but I believe I am healed by the stripes of Jesus. I would appreciate it if you would come into agreement with me for my healing."

So how is it unbelief to say that you are sick with the flu when you are sick with the flu? What is not believed?

Should the blind man not say that he is blind?

Should my diabetic husband not say that he is diabetic? Does he show a lack of faith in God every time he buys insulin?

Come into agreement with you about what? Agree that you are sick? Agree that you are not sick? Agree that God can heal? Agree that God will heal?

Healing, on the other hand, is mine. Jesus purchased it for me by the stripes on his back...

Scripture, please? Where are we told that healing was purchased for believers through the death of Jesus? Was there no healing prior to the death of Jesus?

[dkbwarrior]

Bear with me... I am trying to understand what you believe...

So how is it unbelief to say that you are sick with the flu when you are sick with the flu? What is not believed?

Should the blind man not say that he is blind?

Should my diabetic husband not say that he is diabetic? Does he show a lack of faith in God every time he buys insulin?

Come into agreement with you about what? Agree that you are sick? Agree that you are not sick? Agree that God can heal? Agree that God will heal?

Scripture, please? Where are we told that healing was purchased for believers through the death of Jesus? Was there no healing prior to the death of Jesus?

Most of these I already answered in this (http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=47873416&postcount=13) post.

But I will add:

So how is it unbelief to say that you are sick with the flu when you are sick with the flu? What is not believed?

If you believe that you are healed, why would you say that you are sick? If you say that you are sick, then you don't believe that you are healed, right? That is pretty simple.

Jesus said that faith in God will believe that you receive. That means that faith believes that it receives, right? That is what He said isn't it? This wasn't some idea that I came up with, I can gaurantee you that.


12And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.
19And when even was come, he went out of the city.
20And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
21And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
22And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
-Mark 11:12-14, 19-24

You can communicate the same thing by saying that the flu is attacking you, or that you are resisting the flu, or fighting the flu, without owning it by saying that is what you are. I am sick? No, I'm not, I am the healed, resisting a sickness that is attacking me.

Should my diabetic husband not say that he is diabetic?

In 1990 I was diagnosed with a highly virulent blood disease. I was given approximately 2-5 years to live. Here I am eighteen years later. According to the doctors the disease is still in my blood. But it has had no effect on me.

When I speak about it, I speak like I did above. I don't say I have a disease, because I believe that what I have is healing. I say I was diagnosed with a disease instead.

I don't say that I still have it, because I believe that what I have is healing. I say that according to the doctors the disease is still in my blood.

You see, the Word of God is truth, according to Jesus. Circumstances around or in me are simply facts, not truth. Truth supercedes facts.


Does he show a lack of faith in God every time he buys insulin?

I don't think so. He is treating the symptoms until the Truth that he believes becomes a fact.


Come into agreement with you about what? Agree that you are sick? Agree that you are not sick? Agree that God can heal? Agree that God will heal?

Agree with me that you also believe that I received my healing when I prayed of course. If you are agreeing with me, and I believe that I received when I prayed, then the only way for you to agree with me is to also believe that I received when I prayed, right? Anything else wouldn't be agreement, would it?


Scripture, please? Where are we told that healing was purchased for believers through the death of Jesus? Was there no healing prior to the death of Jesus?


4Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, And our pains -- he hath carried them, And we -- we have esteemed him plagued, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5And he is pierced for our transgressions, Bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement of our peace on him, And [I]by his bruise there is healing to us.
6All of us like sheep have wandered, Each to his own way we have turned, And Jehovah hath caused to meet on him, The punishment of us all.
7It hath been exacted, and he hath answered, And he openeth not his mouth, As a lamb to the slaughter he is brought, And as a sheep before its shearers is dumb, And he openeth not his mouth.
8By restraint and by judgment he hath been taken, And of his generation who doth meditate, That he hath been cut off from the land of the living? By the transgression of My people he is plagued,
9And it appointeth with the wicked his grave, And with the rich [are] his high places, Because he hath done no violence, Nor deceit in his mouth. 10And [I]Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed -- he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of Jehovah in his hand doth prosper.
-Isaiah 53:4-10

Jesus took our sicknesses on Himself. God put them there.

Of course there was healing prior to Jesus, just as there was forgiveness of sins prior to Jesus, but yet our sins were placed on Him. If we could be forgiven before our sins were placed on Jesus based on Gods foreknowledge of that act, then why could we not be healed before our sicknesses were placed on Jesus based on Gods foreknowledge of that act?

I hope that this answers your questions.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

Most of these I already answered in this (http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=47873416&postcount=13) post.

But I will add:



If you believe that you are healed, why would you say that you are sick? If you say that you are sick, then you don't believe that you are healed, right? That is pretty simple.

Jesus said that faith in God will believe that you receive. That means that faith believes that it receives, right? That is what He said isn't it? This wasn't some idea that I came up with, I can gaurantee you that.


12And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.
19And when even was come, he went out of the city.
20And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
21And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
22And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. 24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
-Mark 11:12-14, 19-24

You can communicate the same thing by saying that the flu is attacking you, or that you are resisting the flu, or fighting the flu, without owning it by saying that is what you are. I am sick? No, I'm not, I am the healed, resisting a sickness that is attacking me.



In 1990 I was diagnosed with a highly virulent blood disease. I was given approximately 2-5 years to live. Here I am eighteen years later. According to the doctors the disease is still in my blood. But it has had no effect on me.

When I speak about it, I speak like I did above. I don't say I have a disease, because I believe that what I have is healing. I say I was diagnosed with a disease instead.

I don't say that I still have it, because I believe that what I have is healing. I say that according to the doctors the disease is still in my blood.

You see, the Word of God is truth, according to Jesus. Circumstances around or in me are simply facts, not truth. Truth supercedes facts.




I don't think so. He is treating the symptoms until the Truth that he believes becomes a fact.




Agree with me that you also believe that I received my healing when I prayed of course. If you are agreeing with me, and I believe that I received when I prayed, then the only way for you to agree with me is to also believe that I received when I prayed, right? Anything else wouldn't be agreement, would it?





4Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, And our pains -- he hath carried them, And we -- we have esteemed him plagued, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5And he is pierced for our transgressions, Bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement of our peace on him, And [I]by his bruise there is healing to us.
6All of us like sheep have wandered, Each to his own way we have turned, And Jehovah hath caused to meet on him, The punishment of us all.
7It hath been exacted, and he hath answered, And he openeth not his mouth, As a lamb to the slaughter he is brought, And as a sheep before its shearers is dumb, And he openeth not his mouth.
8By restraint and by judgment he hath been taken, And of his generation who doth meditate, That he hath been cut off from the land of the living? By the transgression of My people he is plagued,
9And it appointeth with the wicked his grave, And with the rich [are] his high places, Because he hath done no violence, Nor deceit in his mouth. 10And [I]Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed -- he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of Jehovah in his hand doth prosper.
-Isaiah 53:4-10

Jesus took our sicknesses on Himself. God put them there.

Of course there was healing prior to Jesus, just as there was forgiveness of sins prior to Jesus, but yet our sins were placed on Him. If we could be forgiven before our sins were placed on Jesus based on Gods foreknowledge of that act, then why could we not be healed before our sicknesses were placed on Jesus based on Gods foreknowledge of that act?

I hope that this answers your questions.

Peace...

I hope those who read your posts are not gullible to accept what you say. :cool:

[Elijah2]

Hi M, we all know that FAITH isn't easy. But as we believe that the more we convince ourself that we are of the reality of an ALL-Powerful, ALL-God, ALL-might GOD, our Lord Jesus Christ, then the more our trust will grow in HIM, and the less we will beoverwhelmed by our doubts, confusion, concerns, and temptations.:cool:

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

[dkbwarrior]

I hope those who read your posts are not gullible to accept what you say. :cool:

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
-John 14:25-26

Those that are asking, seeking and knocking, will receive. They have the same Holy Spirit that we have. The Spirit is capable of helping us discern truth from error.

All it takes is a heart not yet hardened to the goodness of God by the circumstances of life.

I know this is true, because of the messages I receive from those who are reading. It is not a vain excercise, declaring the goodness of God.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

Hi M, we all know that FAITH isn't easy. But as we believe that the more we convince ourself that we are of the reality of an ALL-Powerful, ALL-God, ALL-might GOD, our Lord Jesus Christ, then the more our trust will grow in HIM, and the less we will beoverwhelmed by our doubts, confusion, concerns, and temptations.:cool:

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

That's the issue. People are trying to work on THEIR FAITH without the help from God. They are taught to work on their faith and they were never taught about God's grace.

Corrie ten Boom's faith was an example. How did Corrie's faith survive through her TOUGHEST times? She said: "Trying to do the Lord's work in your own strength is the most confusing, exhausting, and tedious of all work. But when you are filled with the Holy Spirit, then the ministry of Jesus just flows out of you."

Negative circumstances teach us dependence on His grace (John 15:1-5, 2 Corinthians 12:1-10) that whatever is happening makes us think of our own reflections, trying to look at it from the biblical and the personal viewpoint. Negative circumstances come to test the strength of our faith because they assist us in the knowledge of our own faith. (Genesis 22:1-18, Malachi 3:3-4, 1 Peter 1:6-9).

[JimfromOhio]

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
-John 14:25-26

Those that are asking, seeking and knocking, will receive. They have the same Holy Spirit that we have. The Spirit is capable of helping us discern truth from error.

All it takes is a heart not yet hardened to the goodness of God by the circumstances of life.

I know this is true, because of the messages I receive from those who are reading. It is not a vain excercise, declaring the goodness of God.

Peace...
Many people think they are Christians and claim to know God however when severe difficulties come into their lives, they can't really face the reality because they don't truly know Him and His Character. That they were unable to deal with the sufferings and not being healed, their faith is revealed to be dead because of "worrying" and other human negative emotional reactions. Sufferings produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. (Romans 5:3-4) Suffering experiences may be viewed as coming from God to bring out the BEST in us (See: Gen. 22:1-2, 15-18; Hebrews 11:17).

Over the years of discipleship, I have LEARNED that Jesus is OUR SHEPHERD that He will supply all our needs (Phil. 4:19) and that He knows everything about our lives (Ps. 139:3), cares about us (1 Pet. 5:7), has the power for every difficulty (Ps. 62:11), is perfecting US to be like Christ (Phil. 1:6), and that nothing escapes Him (Ps. 147:5), that will lead us to be stable, not anxious living.

[JimfromOhio]

I have been involved in various ministries that helps those who are not healed. The burden of loving help which we are admonished to give to others: "Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2) which never harmed a soul. Another area of burden is the moral responsibility which no one can shift to another: "For each one should carry his own load" (Galatians 6:5) which is a source of comfort if our hearts are right. The only way the spiritual gifts are going to operate is love. Love is the key. God is love. He gave us two commandments. We are to love God and others. With the Holy Spirit and love, I will walk in the Spirit, Christ produces the fruit. It is Christ through the Holy Spirit produces power, love, a sound mind through us. Christ helps us. Without Christ, we are nothing. I believe as Christians that the church must remove physical, emotional and spiritual barriers in order to bring in people who are suffering with disabilities. I believe that when those who are suffering are utilized in outreach of the Kingdom, the fullness of the Bride of Christ (Church) only then reflects the glory of the Bridegroom (God). I believe that the church are commanded by God through Scriptures to train and equip people with disabilities in order to help them exercise their Godgiven gifts in building the Body of Christ. God is NOT limited to goodness.

[bliz]

Sorry darlin' - I am trying to keep an open mind about what you say, but it all sounds like healing is based on the power of your faith, not on God's power to act is He so chooses to do so.

If you believe that you are healed, why would you say that you are sick? If you say that you are sick, then you don't believe that you are healed, right? That is pretty simple.

If I have a temp of 103, am nauseated, and every piece of me aches I am sick, I am not healed. God may choose to heal me in the next second. God may choose to heal me through the passage of time, but I am not healed. I am sick. That's why I would say I was sick, because I was sick.

You can communicate the same thing by saying that the flu is attacking you, or that you are resisting the flu, or fighting the flu, without owning it by saying that is what you are. I am sick? No, I'm not, I am the healed, resisting a sickness that is attacking me.

If I'm resisting, I'm not sick. If I'm fighting the flu, it's because I'm sick. I don't own it, it's not my disease, it does not define me, but you have been sick, I have been sick and both of us will be sick again.

In 1990 I was diagnosed with a highly virulent blood disease. I was given approximately 2-5 years to live. Here I am eighteen years later. According to the doctors the disease is still in my blood. But it has had no effect on me.

When I speak about it, I speak like I did above. I don't say I have a disease, because I believe that what I have is healing. I say I was diagnosed with a disease instead.

Well, in this case you have been healed, so that's why you would say you were healed.
Jesus took our sicknesses on Himself. God put them there.

Then why do we get sick now?

Of course there was healing prior to Jesus, just as there was forgiveness of sins prior to Jesus, but yet our sins were placed on Him. If we could be forgiven before our sins were placed on Jesus based on Gods foreknowledge of that act, then why could we not be healed before our sicknesses were placed on Jesus based on Gods foreknowledge of that act?

If we were healed of our sicknesses through the death of Jesus, then we would never be sick and our bodies would always work correctly. Only they don't. That's a fact AND that's the truth.

Further, your pairing of sins and sickness leads all too quickly to people declaring that people who are sick have sinned and therefore they are sick, or are not really believers or they would not be sick.

[probinson]

If I have a temp of 103, am nauseated, and every piece of me aches I am sick, I am not healed. God may choose to heal me in the next second. God may choose to heal me through the passage of time, but I am not healed. I am sick. That's why I would say I was sick, because I was sick.
You're saved, yes? Do you sin? Are you saved, even though you sin?

If we were healed of our sicknesses through the death of Jesus, then we would never be sick and our bodies would always work correctly. Only they don't. That's a fact AND that's the truth.
I'm sure we both agree that our sins were washed away by the blood of Jesus, but we don't always do right things, and we still do sinful stuff. Why? If sin was taken care of at the cross and we've been redeemed, why do we continue to do sinful things?

Further, your pairing of sins and sickness leads all too quickly to people declaring that people who are sick have sinned and therefore they are sick, or are not really believers or they would not be sick.
Jesus didn't draw too much of a distinction between sin and sickness here. In fact, it really messed with the teachers of the law;
Matthew 9:4-8 (NIV)
4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7 And the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.

[bliz]

Jesus didn't draw too much of a distinction between sin and sickness here. In fact, it really messed with the teachers of the law;Matthew 9:4-8 (NIV)
4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7 And the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.

Are you saying that sin causes sickness? (Is it just me, or are people hesitant to write clear English sentences on this thread?)

[JimfromOhio]

Are you saying that sin causes sickness? (Is it just me, or are people hesitant to write clear English sentences on this thread?)
[/indent]
Let's look at sickness, in the sense that all sickness is linked to sin, because if there were no sin, there would be no sickness. In this sinful world, this world do NOT discriminate between believers and unbelievers. Plane crashes, boat sinkings, train accidents, car collisions, heart disease, cancer.

We all get sick and will die. We live in a body that is decaying and dying which is temporal. If our bodies are decaying as Paul said, where does it say we are physically whole while our bodies are slowly dying? I disagree with Probinson on the concept of healing. The healing of the atonement will bring about our resurrection in glory, where there will be no pain or suffering (Rev. 21:1-4; 22:1-3). Jesus died to save us from our sins is clear in Isaiah 53 and many other portions of Scripture.

[dkbwarrior]

Jesus took our sicknesses on Himself. God put them there.
Then why do we get sick now?


Well, lets see....

Lets apply your logic to salvation.

If Jesus took our sin upon Himself, then why do we still sin now?




Of course there was healing prior to Jesus, just as there was forgiveness of sins prior to Jesus, but yet our sins were placed on Him. If we could be forgiven before our sins were placed on Jesus based on Gods foreknowledge of that act, then why could we not be healed before our sicknesses were placed on Jesus based on Gods foreknowledge of that act?
If we were healed of our sicknesses through the death of Jesus, then we would never be sick and our bodies would always work correctly. Only they don't. That's a fact AND that's the truth.


Again, lets apply this logic to the forgiveness of sin.

If we were healed of our sin through the death of Jesus, then we would never sin and we would always do the righteous thing. Only we don't. That's a fact AND that's the truth.

I deduce from this that your logic is flawed.

It really doesn't matter what you think. Your logic does not supercede the scripture. Isaiah specifically says that Jesus took our sicknesses, that God bruised Him making Him sick, and that by this bruise we are healed.

Jesus said, "Thy Word is truth." What you are saying may well be human reasoning, but it is not truth.

Peace...

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Jesus didn't draw too much of a distinction between sin and sickness here. In fact, it really messed with the teachers of the law;Matthew 9:4-8 (NIV)
4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7 And the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.Correct, He didn't. But it would be a misuse of this awareness to slot it in as some kind of indicator for the confirmation of that whole nest of false doctrines and bad judgments faulting the afflicted for having afflictions, imagining them to be moral criminals deserving condemnation for the dubious "crime" of having believed God and NOT gotten what they wanted.

Rather, the real purpose of this connection seems to be to elevate our awareness out of the abuse-marinated gutter of the legal/punitive model of morality and into the Kingdom Glory of the "medical"/healing model. In other words ... instead of viewing sin as crime which needs to be punished, meriting condemnation, Christ intends we view it as sickness which needs to be treated and cured, requiring compassion.

Those who find this awareness, truly find the heart of God. Those who never move past the "justice system" model -- well, God loves them too, so may He have mercy on them for they know not what they do. :prayer:

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

That's the issue. People are trying to work on THEIR FAITH without the help from God. They are taught to work on their faith and they were never taught about God's grace.

Corrie ten Boom's faith was an example. How did Corrie's faith survive through her TOUGHEST times? She said: "Trying to do the Lord's work in your own strength is the most confusing, exhausting, and tedious of all work. But when you are filled with the Holy Spirit, then the ministry of Jesus just flows out of you."
EXACTLY!!! That bes it EXACTLY.
We can apply the same realization and awareness to the problem of sin and the flesh. People get into trying to work on their "obedience", to make themselves "right in their walk", to be "holy", to "represent Christ" or "be Christlike," make ourselves "stop sinning", etc. That bes the most confusing, exhausting, tedious and horrid of all things trying to do it oneself--we always fail, always fail miserably, and always will fail!!! BUT when we WALK IN THE SPIRIT we automatically do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We don't have to be cognizant of this process; it bes a GIVEN. We don't have to struggle or monitor it; it just flows. When we do the one thing -- walk in the Spirit -- the other takes care of itself. :thumbsup:

[Elijah2]

That's the issue. People are trying to work on THEIR FAITH without the help from God. They are taught to work on their faith and they were never taught about God's grace.

Corrie ten Boom's faith was an example. How did Corrie's faith survive through her TOUGHEST times? She said: "Trying to do the Lord's work in your own strength is the most confusing, exhausting, and tedious of all work. But when you are filled with the Holy Spirit, then the ministry of Jesus just flows out of you."

Negative circumstances teach us dependence on His grace (John 15:1-5, 2 Corinthians 12:1-10) that whatever is happening makes us think of our own reflections, trying to look at it from the biblical and the personal viewpoint. Negative circumstances come to test the strength of our faith because they assist us in the knowledge of our own faith. (Genesis 22:1-18, Malachi 3:3-4, 1 Peter 1:6-9).

Yay Jim, too many of us measure faith, instead of using it as part of our fighting arsenal. Without faith, we will fall to the wiles of the enemy.

Corrie proved her faith when a prison guard that abused her in the concentration camp, was standing in the line for prayer and for her forgiveness. What faith Corri had, can you imagine what was going through her mind at that time.

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

[bliz]

Well, lets see....

Lets apply your logic to salvation.

If Jesus took our sin upon Himself, then why do we still sin now?

Again, lets apply this logic to the forgiveness of sin.
If we were healed of our sin through the death of Jesus, then we would never sin and we would always do the righteous thing. Only we don't. That's a fact AND that's the truth.

I sill sin, but, as a Christian, my sins will not be held against me concerning my salvation.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I sill sin, but, as a Christian, my sins will not be held against me concerning my salvation.
:thumbsup:
Yep, just like disobeying Mom & Dad does not mean you would no longer be their child or loved just as much. We are His children through Christ!! We belong to Him and He will NEVER cast us out.

John 6:37 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=6&verse=37&version=9&context=verse)
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Nothing can separate us from His love ... NOT EVEN DEMONS.

Romans 8:35-39
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Wonderful, AWESOME God whose mercy we do NOT deserve!!! How we praise and worship You, mighty King!! :bow: :bow: :bow: :prayer:

[JimfromOhio]

Yay Jim, too many of us measure faith, instead of using it as part of our fighting arsenal. Without faith, we will fall to the wiles of the enemy.

Corrie proved her faith when a prison guard that abused her in the concentration camp, was standing in the line for prayer and for her forgiveness. What faith Corri had, can you imagine what was going through her mind at that time.

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.
Yes...Her forgiveness respresents God's GRACE that was through HER. God was glorified through Corrie's ministry through many years until the day she died. Her ministry is still alive even though she is no longer with us physically but she is in heaven.

[JimfromOhio]

I sill sin, but, as a Christian, my sins will not be held against me concerning my salvation.


[/indent]
We Christians are still sinners but forgiven sinners under God's grace and His power through the Holy Spirit. More we are spirit-filled, more grace we are able to resist temptation to sin even though we still sin by accident. We will have this sinful nature until the day we go HOME (Heaven). We live in a body that is decaying and dying which is temporal. Our bodies are decaying as Paul said in 2 Corinthians, In other words, our human bodies are subject to death (and is already dying) because of sin, however our spirits are alive in Christ. We have eternal life in our possession, even though our bodies are dying because of sin, "My temorary body is decaying at the same time, my inner being is being renewed day by day" (2 Cor 4:16).

"If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." (Galatians 5:25).

Through the Holy Spirit, GRACE is more than sufficient for us to overcome anything. :thumbsup:

[JimfromOhio]

:thumbsup:
Yep, just like disobeying Mom & Dad does not mean you would no longer be their child or loved just as much. We are His children through Christ!! We belong to Him and He will NEVER cast us out.

John 6:37 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=6&verse=37&version=9&context=verse)
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Nothing can separate us from His love ... NOT EVEN DEMONS.

Romans 8:35-39
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Wonderful, AWESOME God whose mercy we do NOT deserve!!! How we praise and worship You, mighty King!! :bow: :bow: :bow: :prayer:
God's grace is very powerful. :thumbsup:

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

God's grace is very powerful. :thumbsup:
No less than the greatest force in all the Universe!! :clap:
Jesus Christ being the express, perfect, complete living incarnation of ALL His grace!!!

Colossians 1:12-22

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't care what camp your in, you pray for someone and they are not healed so what do you do next

Tell them they have no faith or God must be teaching them something and leave it at that

or

Offer to help them search there soul for the possible answer


it is really simple. the only publicly known man of Yhvh in the last century who taught about this what is right died after 13 years in solitary prison with much torture a few years ago.
no one on tv in the u.s.a. is teaching what is right.
find the man who died for his faith, and you won't have a question anymore.

[Lpe04]

I don't care what camp your in, you pray for someone and they are not healed so what do you do next

Walk away slowly, haha

[windcatcher]

The typical question "Why God heals some and doesn't all?" is something I have always wanted to know.

The Lord gave me some insights on this in years. I have learned a lot, little by little each time. And because of that, I can see how things seem so complicated.

Yet I do know that God's messages on any topic should be rather simple. It doesn't seem make sense right? But I believe that's because He has not revealed the whole picture on the subject of healing yet. Right now, we have to be patient and do whatever we know of.

I think the right mental attitude when you have prayed for a healing and nothing happened, you SHOULD think something was wrong. That's because you believe the Word and the power of God. The Bible doesn't lie nor God is powerless. And you should realize it is because of our weaknesses, the causes. One of the major weaknesses/causes is our lack of faith.

Jesus marveled to see a strong faith in certain people in the Bible. And He said that their faith healed their diseases. So, definitely one of the biggest keys to be healed is faith. I wanna talk about faith a bit here even though there are other possible causes that block God's blessing of healings.

This can shock you but, if you think about it carefully and ask yourself and be honest, you should understand. It's about the sound insight and analysis of your own faith. Can you see your faith and evaluate how it is? It's easy to say, " I have faith because I believe so." But I think faith is more than a declaration. Words from your mouth are not the power to move a mountain, but it really is the faith words empowered by the Holy Spirit that moves a mountain. So notice that you think you have faith or enough faith but you actually don't. There is this possibility. Especially, if you have neglected reading the Word, you really should realize that your faith is smaller than you think. I know it kinda hurts, but let's repent...

For a receiver of healing, if the level of faith (yes, faith can grow, faith to faith, we get closer to Jesus) is not high enough, he/she can miss God's blessing. In this case though, the receiver needs to believe in Jesus without doubting. It's rather simple.

Faith of those who minister and serve the need should be led by the Spirit of God first of all. And their faith, with the exercise of gift of faith and healings, should be strong enough to deal with the issue. Remember, Jesus healed all. He healed all who have asked. But He didn't even bother those who didn't believe in His power. He avoided them. So, if we have the same faith level that Jesus had, I think we can heal everyone who simply asks. The problem is that our faith isn't strong enough yet. And I believe this is one of the main reasons we don't always see God's glory through healings.

There are other possible answers to the question I mentioned at the beginning of this post, but I won't go there right now. All in all what we can do now is to be led by the Holy Spirit and act. Otherwise, when we say, "get up and walk", nothing would happen.

[GrapeGirl]

Be honest, admit that you don't know why, but tell them that you will continue to pray for them and personally seek His wisdom and grace to understand.

[EternalSummer]

^^ What she said. Personally I believe God sometimes delays healing to test those of us doing the ministering. He wants to see if we will pass judgment against the person who needs healing and heap blame upon them for "not REALLY believing" instead of being honest and admitting we don't know everything.

[RevKidd]

It amazes me how little is given towards scripture when it comes to healing. We have all these people teaching this, teaching that. Follow these steps, say this mantra, repeat this mantra.

There is no need to jump through scriptural hoops when it comes to healing. There is no level of faith required, no number of scriptures memorized will do it. No number of books read, or videos watched or CD's listened to will work.

God's Will, will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Period. We will all die. Some of natural causes, some from sickness, some from accidents. The death rate so far is one per person, and I don't see that changing.

Our guaranteed healing is of the spiritual kind. Where the sickness of sin and death has been defeated. No longer we the losers in death, but we are the victors in death. No where in scripture do you find healing guaranteed, no do you see this example anywhere in the NT or it's authors.

Should we also be protected from many other things in life as well. Like auto accidents, plan crashes, getting hit by cars, diving accidents, etc., Are those circumstances any different?

[BlackJack77]

First of all. Hello :wave: Nowhere in the Scriptures are we guaranteed an INSTANT healing. So, just because you pray for someone and there is no immediate evidence, does not make God a liar and men true. What we should do in that case make sure they understand that fact and leave them with "God's medicine" which is applicable Scripture that they need to continually feed on, because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God and it will help them to remain faithful and believing prior to seeing the manifestation and is very important because a person is most vulnerable to hearing lies from the enemy and vulnerable to becoming doubtful, (especially in this microwave generation) during the time of waiting and as we know from Scripture, unbelief is the fastest way to grieve the Holy Spirit and a double minded man is unstable in all his ways, and the Scripture tells us that such a man (or woman) ought not to expect anything from God. Sincerely in Christ, Jack. I don't care what camp your in, you pray for someone and they are not healed so what do you do next

Tell them they have no faith or God must be teaching them something and leave it at that

or

Offer to help them search there soul for the possible answer

[BlackJack77]

*seems to be a duplicate

[BlackJack77]

I should also emphasize that even before you pray for someone, ask them if they are holding any unforgiveness for anyone that they can think of, because if they are, they need to release that person of the bondage they are holding them in, because unforgiveness can and does thwart healing. They don't have to tell you who or for what reason. A yes or no will suffice and then you need to explain the above to them and instruct them to take a moment to deal with that, before you pray. Remember what Jesus said, "If you do not forgive, my Father in heaven will not forgive you." Sincerely in Christ, Jack

[rushingwind62]

Who knows why God doesn't heal sometimes. I don't believe the you have no faith argument. I think that is a very belittling and judgmental stance. I think sometimes the person that is sick and/or dying just gets tired of fighting and wants to go home. Our job is not to judge them, belittle them, or ridicule them. IMO our job is to serve them as we serve our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ. What one should do in that situation is comfort them by taking care of their needs. Feed them, bathe them, help them do the things they can no longer do for themselves. Help them get through the stages one goes through when gravely ill. And there are many stages ranging from denial, self pity, to anger. We are called to help others make peace with God, not push them away from God. We are called to encourage, not discourage. No one ever seems to think that maybe they are the reason God is not healing someone. But MAYBE He is testing you and your servitude. Just a little food for thought. God Bless You....Rob

[BlackJack77]

With all due respect brother RevKidd, that is untrue that no amount of faith is required. Without faith it is impossible to please Him. (Hebrews 11:6) Jesus was unable to do any mighty work in Nazareth because of unbelief. Unbelief grieves the Holy Spirit. When the Blind man came to Jesus, Jesus asked the man what He wanted! Was Jesus being facetious? Surely He knew and could see the man was blind right? And the Lord knows the desires of the hearts of men, so He knew full well what the man wanted. But asking for what he wanted from the Lord was an act of faith. It is faith that pleases Him. Jesus always required people to "do" something. You don't think the nasty River Jordan had healing elements in it do you? Or that a formula of 7 dips cures, do you? So, why do you suppose that those examples are written? Sincerely in Christ, Jack _______________________________________________________________ ADDED: I should add here also another account, where a man did ask Jesus for healing and Jesus asked him, "do you believe I can do this?" the man said, "yea Lord" and Jesus said, "Then as you have believed, let it be done so unto you." It amazes me how little is given towards scripture when it comes to healing. We have all these people teaching this, teaching that. Follow these steps, say this mantra, repeat this mantra.

There is no need to jump through scriptural hoops when it comes to healing. There is no level of faith required, no number of scriptures memorized will do it. No number of books read, or videos watched or CD's listened to will work.

God's Will, will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Period. We will all die. Some of natural causes, some from sickness, some from accidents. The death rate so far is one per person, and I don't see that changing.

Our guaranteed healing is of the spiritual kind. Where the sickness of sin and death has been defeated. No longer we the losers in death, but we are the victors in death. No where in scripture do you find healing guaranteed, no do you see this example anywhere in the NT or it's authors.

Should we also be protected from many other things in life as well. Like auto accidents, plan crashes, getting hit by cars, diving accidents, etc., Are those circumstances any different?

[Lpe04]

I hope those who read your posts are not gullible to accept what you say. :cool:

Jim, there is some truth to what she says. God does not want us to have a "spirit/mind of poverty". That's part of what faith is, accepting something even though I can't see it. I didn't personally see Jesus die on the cross, but I still accept His work, and His healing power in what He has done for me, which changes the way I live my life. There are many factors involved, but this is one of them :) Hope this makes sense. God bless.

[BlackJack77]

Hi rushingwind62. It sounds like you are speaking of someone within weeks of their death on hospice here. Surely by then many are tired and ready to go home. Not that they still could not receive a miraculous healing and recovery as they could, and many people have. For those that don't we cannot explain, as we are not omniscient, but there is no reason to minister unbelief and the opposite of faith to a person who still has hope, setting them up for a fall. Once they are gone, there is no more ministering. But as long as they are alive, the words of Life which are found in the atonement are what we are to speak into their lives. Oftentimes, people do not receive because they don't believe and that's just the way it is. There are many many people who say they believe, but when the rubber meets the road, their actions prove otherwise. I don't believe God would leave someone sick and dying just to teach you any kind of lesson either. That is just plain ludicrous and certainly not supported by Scripture. Jesus Christ Himself, could do no mighty work in Nazareth because of unbelief. It doesn't mean He was powerless, it is just that He does not work that way, and will not work that way. He performs His Word when we believe it. He is not a showman. He does not do dog and pony shows, to prove anything to anyone. There is no reason not to believe that those who believe with all of their hearts and profess those things out of their mouths, that they shall have whatsoever they say. And that works both ways, sure enough. And the Scripture do say that a double minded man is unstable in all his ways and that a person in such a state ought not think that they will receive anything from God. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. If people put a fraction of the faith in the Lord that they have for doctors who give them 50/50 odds, with the options available that come with no guarantee, I believe a whole lot more people would indeed be healed. Sincerely in Christ, Jack Who knows why God doesn't heal sometimes. I don't believe the you have no faith argument. I think that is a very belittling and judgmental stance. I think sometimes the person that is sick and/or dying just gets tired of fighting and wants to go home. Our job is not to judge them, belittle them, or ridicule them. IMO our job is to serve them as we serve our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ. What one should do in that situation is comfort them by taking care of their needs. Feed them, bathe them, help them do the things they can no longer do for themselves. Help them get through the stages one goes through when gravely ill. And there are many stages ranging from denial, self pity, to anger. We are called to help others make peace with God, not push them away from God. We are called to encourage, not discourage. No one ever seems to think that maybe they are the reason God is not healing someone. But MAYBE He is testing you and your servitude. Just a little food for thought. God Bless You....Rob

[BlackJack77]

Amen. This is a good post. Jim, there is some truth to what she says. God does not want us to have a "spirit/mind of poverty". That's part of what faith is, accepting something even though I can't see it. I didn't personally see Jesus die on the cross, but I still accept His work, and His healing power in what He has done for me, which changes the way I live my life. There are many factors involved, but this is one of them :) Hope this makes sense. God bless.

[Lpe04]

Amen. This is a good post.

Thanks brother :)

[rushingwind62]

Hi rushingwind62. It sounds like you are speaking of someone within weeks of their death on hospice here. Surely by then many are tired and ready to go home. Not that they still could not receive a miraculous healing and recovery as they could, and many people have. For those that don't we cannot explain, as we are not omniscient, but there is no reason to minister unbelief and the opposite of faith to a person who still has hope, setting them up for a fall. Once they are gone, there is no more ministering. But as long as they are alive, the words of Life which are found in the atonement are what we are to speak into their lives. Oftentimes, people do not receive because they don't believe and that's just the way it is. There are many many people who say they believe, but when the rubber meets the road, their actions prove otherwise. I don't believe God would leave someone sick and dying just to teach you any kind of lesson either. That is just plain ludicrous and certainly not supported by Scripture. Jesus Christ Himself, could do no mighty work in Nazareth because of unbelief. It doesn't mean He was powerless, it is just that He does not work that way, and will not work that way. He performs His Word when we believe it. He is not a showman. He does not do dog and pony shows, to prove anything to anyone. There is no reason not to believe that those who believe with all of their hearts and profess those things out of their mouths, that they shall have whatsoever they say. And that works both ways, sure enough. And the Scripture do say that a double minded man is unstable in all his ways and that a person in such a state ought not think that they will receive anything from God. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. If people put a fraction of the faith in the Lord that they have for doctors who give them 50/50 odds, with the options available that come with no guarantee, I believe a whole lot more people would indeed be healed. Sincerely in Christ, Jack

Well, fact of the matter is this, some are not healed and they are left to suffer. Whether it be for a short time or whether it be for a long agonizing death. Do we know why? NO! No one knows! To say someone has no faith is not a fact, nor is it supported with scripture. It is merely a condemning point of view and opinion.

No where did I state that God makes people sick to test us. Fact, we are humans and we all have to face sickness in our lives and the lives of our loved ones. What matters when we or one of our loved is sick, is how we deal with it. Condemning someone (including ourselves) when they are sick, is not scriptural. And rather than looking at someone's life and telling them they have no faith, we need to be looking at our own life and asking ourselves, how can I be a better Christian here and how will my actions speak to and affect this person. Do they encourage or discourage? No where in the bible does it say we are discourage, belittle, or condemn our brethren or anyone! When one is sick, they need help. When one falls down they need help getting back up, not beat back down. I think Jesus said it best when He said, "You without sin cast the first stone." Those words speak multitudes about condemning someone. You say that scripture has nothing to do with healing? That it was about sin and adultery. I say no it wasn't. It was about judging others and condemning them. Jesus didn't walk away from her, He was right there at her side loving her, forgiving her, and ENCOURAGING her! And He does the same thing with each one of us whether we are sick, living in sin, or in any other type of crisis. Life is full of tribulations, trials, and tests. And all too often we are looking at others and trying to get the splinter out of their eye when we have a log in our own eye.

[whatfor]

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, but wanted to share some things I deal with.

Firstly I have found this an awkward thing when praying for someone.
If you say to them , "it might work" then you are already doubting.
We are supposed to pray knowing God will heal them.
I don't blame them in any way.

I also believe there are root causes behind why some don't get healed or hold on to it.

I had an example of this in me.
I was prayed for numerous times for a very painful case of tennis elbow, I got temporary relief a few times but it wouldn't stay.
I went to a conferrence where they pray for healings first shouting out words of knowledge.
A word was given about someone with a problem on the outside of the left ear, I had this but didn't respond at the time.
As a result of the elbow I went to the doctor, while there I had the ear checked and as a result had to go back to have some suspect skin burned off before it developed skin cancer.
I realized I probably would not have gone to the doctor if the elbow was fine.
When I acknowledged this I felt a great joy in my spirit, as if I was being told I got it right.
Anyway I suffered with a very painful elbow for months , as soon as the ear was treated the elbow healed.
I feel there maybe all sorts of root causes.

I am still learning , and always like to hear of others testimonies to help me understand more.
I know there is so much more to learn.

[RevKidd]

With all due respect brother RevKidd, that is untrue that no amount of faith is required. Without faith it is impossible to please Him. (Hebrews 11:6)

Ok. What does this have to do with healing. Nothing. The author of Hebrews tells us that Faith is essential to believe in God and gives OT examples of OT faith in action.



And if you notice, Faith was used to secure their eternal righteousness.

[quote]Jesus was unable to do any mighty work in Nazareth because of unbelief. Unbelief grieves the Holy Spirit.

This is a huge theological fallacy that God requires our faith to move or to be able to do anything. Did God need our faith when he said, "Let there be light". Did he need our faith when he created the sun, moon, stars, our universe? Does he need our faith when he created the angels, heaven, anything? So now you take a line in the NT that says he was unable to do any might work because of unbelief. Does your interpretation of that scripture line up with the whole of scripture? If God, creator of all, you and me, is bound by our unbelief, how can he be God? Paul says that the clay cannot say to the potter, "why did you make me this way"? Paul recognizes that we are just that, a creation, by an almighty creator.

So there has to be a better interpretation to that scripture than what you give and many of those in the "Healing takes faith" camp. A better way to look at the scripture within it's context and one that harmonizes with scripture is that Christ was not going to cast his pearls before swine. Why perform miracles, teach and disciple where you have no respect. Just like the saying "a prophet hath no honor in his own country".

God can never be bound by us. NEVER.






What you are doing here is taking a narrative passage, and applying doctrine to it. That is a hermeneutical error. Why do I say that… When read about Peter and John outside the temple, they heal the lame man, who says absolutely nothing. All he does is give them his attention. Why was he healed? Luke doesn’t say anything about faith, the lame man’s faith or anyone’s faith.

My point is this, you are applying doctrine to a narrative story. The author’s intent is to relay a story about Christ. It is not meant to instruct us on how to heal. I could as easily say that we don’t have to request anything from the God, or the holy spirit based on the lame man outside the temple example. And that is the error of the “healing take faith” jargon. I will say that we can express our needs, we can express our wants, but our faith is not a force that enables or disables God. Christ said “Thy will be done on earth, as it is in HEAVEN”. Christ said “THY WILL”. Not MY WILL. God’s promise to prosper us spiritually and our ultimate goal is eternity in heaven with Him. That’s it. Man will die, you will die, I will die. There will be those of us who have good Christian parents, spouses and family who will succumb to death by illness, and what will you say to that person just before they take their last breath. “You didn’t have enough faith”…


[quote] It is faith that pleases Him. Jesus always required people to "do" something. You don't think the nasty River Jordan had healing elements in it do you? Or that a formula of 7 dips cures, do you? So, why do you suppose that those examples are written? Sincerely in Christ, Jack _______________________________________________________________ ADDED: I should add here also another account, where a man did ask Jesus for healing and Jesus asked him, "do you believe I can do this?" the man said, "yea Lord" and Jesus said, "Then as you have believed, let it be done so unto you."

I agree faith pleases God. No doubt about it. But “doing” does not provide healing. I agree that one should have faith for their healing, but show me a Christian who does not have faith. Faith provides nothing more than Grace. Grace guarantees our spiritual healing from sin and death. Eternity in Heaven is our Hope. Christ did not heal, so that we can develop a systematic thesis on how to heal today. That was not the author’s intent or purpose, nor do we see that example carried out in the Bible or any non-biblical accounts. The purpose of Christ’s healing was to show the people that he was from God. Christ’s miracles strengthened the faith of his Disciple and followers, so that they could carry on his work and build the Church. Thus his greatest miracle was that over death. And that is our hope. The resurrection and eternal life with him.

We have to have a proper perspective of scripture and the authors intent. When we start adding meaning to scripture when that is not what is intended, then you have people not being healed because they don’t have faith. I say people are not healed because God says so. It’s HIS WILL be done. Not ours.

[importunity]

I don't care what camp your in, you pray for someone and they are not healed so what do you do next

Tell them they have no faith or God must be teaching them something and leave it at that

or

Offer to help them search there soul for the possible answer


I try to locate where they are at before I take the next step in ministering an individual. I generally don’t have a problem with healing. Most people believe they receive when I pray and then the cool thing is I get to see God show up. There is no real pressure on me, I am not the healer Christ is the Healer. So as for the ones that don’t seem to have it show up in the natural realm, I locate where they are at and then help them appropriately. Not with condemnation or guilt, but with love and compassion.