Why Did "faith Teacher" Paula Whites Son Just Die Of A Disease ??

[pinetree]

Why did "faith teacher" Paula Whites daughter just die of a disease?

Why didn't Kenny copeland go heal her?

Some are in a history denial of 2000 years, of alot christians across the planet not being healed!

There are plenty more examples of other "faith teachers" who have physical issues too!

Our prayers go out to her,and her family.
I also do believe Jesus is still healing on the earth today!
In His timing,by His grace only.

[BenAdam]

Source?

[pinetree]

Source?
good morning brother benadam.

It was broadcast on TBN..

below are more that I borrowed from ~Jim..

Oral Roberts wears a pacemaker.
Kenneth Hagin (who has made the most outlandish statements regarding guaranteed healing for believers) died Sept.19,. 2003 in the cardiac intensive care unit of a Tulsa hospital after suffering a heart attack. Hagin’s sister had previously died unhealed of cancer.
Buddy Harrison Hagin’s son-in-law and founder of Harrison House Publishing, the largest disseminator of the PHIA doctrine, died of unhealed cancer in December 1999.
E.W. Kenyon died in 1948 while in a unhealed comatose cancerous state.
Charles Capps wife, Beverly, is under constant psychiatric care and uses meds to maintain unhealed emotional balance.
Kathryn Kuhlman died of unhealed heart failure in 1976 after suffering from a heart condition for twenty years.
Joyce Meyers has been medically treated for unhealed breast cancer.
John Osteen, although his wife Dodie was miraculously healed of liver cancer in the mid-1980s, himself died in a hospital of an unhealed heart condition. Osteen had suffered numerous unhealed medical problems.
Frederick Price’s wife, Betty, has undergone chemotherapy.
T.L. Osborne’s wife, Daisy, died in 1995 of unhealed cancer.
Rod Parsley has had back surgery and his son Austin suffers from Asperger's syndrome, form of autism.
R.W. Shambach has had quadruple bypass surgery.
William Branham died in 1965, at age 56, from complication following an automobile accident.
A.A. Allen died of in San Francisco in1970 of sclerosis of the liver (brought on by alcohol toxicity) and cardiac arrest.
Jack Coe died in 1956 of unhealed polio.
Robert Kelso Carter, the father and originator of the modern physical-healing-is-in-the-atonement-doctrine (c.1884 with the book The Atonement for Sin and Sickness), died of tuberculosis in 1998. To his credit, he recanted the atonement-for-sickness doctrine after seeing its lack of effectiveness and being unable to adequate answer its challenges in his book Faith Healing Reviewed After Twenty Years, returning to medical school, and setting up a medical practice in Baltimore in 1895. He wrote the song, “Standing On the Promises.” Here’s a bio of Carter-click here (http://healingandrevival.com/BioRKCarter.htm).

[BenAdam]

Robert Kelso Carter, the father and originator of the modern physical-healing-is-in-the-atonement-doctrine (c.1884 with the book The Atonement for Sin and Sickness), died of tuberculosis in 1998. To his credit, he recanted the atonement-for-sickness doctrine after seeing its lack of effectiveness and being unable to adequate answer its challenges in his book Faith Healing Reviewed After Twenty Years, returning to medical school, and setting up a medical practice in Baltimore in 1895. He wrote the song, “Standing On the Promises.” Here’s a bio of Carter-click here (http://healingandrevival.com/BioRKCarter.htm).


Should that be 1898?

[pinetree]

Should that be 1898?
very observant kippison..

[GreatistheLord]

Why did Jesus raise from the dead?

[pinetree]

Why did Jesus raise from the dead?
i dont quite know what you are trying to say.:)

[JimfromOhio]

Why did Jesus raise from the dead?
Christ through His death and resurrection, every legal hindrance has been met and satisfied. There is nothing that can keep me from the promise. Its not about thinking our way into salvation or to reason our way into salvation. The only way to get in is to believe Him with my heart which is sealed by the Holy Spirit through the gift of Faith, through Jesus Christ, His grace and the conviction of the Holy Spirit.:thumbsup:

[Balance]

Why did "faith teacher" Paula Whites son just die of a disease?

Why didn't Kenny copeland go heal him?

Some are in a history denial of 2000 years, of alot christians across the planet not being healed!

There are plenty more examples of other "faith teachers" who have physical issues too!

Our prayers go out to her,and her family.


WHY ARE YOU JUDGING THE WILL OF GOD BASED OFF THE FAILINGS OF A MAN/WOMAN?


DO BIG RED LETTERS MAKE MY POST BETTER?

[Balance]

Why do some Christian's children die and go to hell because they don't get saved?

[BenAdam]

Why do some Christian's children die and go to hell because they don't get saved?





Simple, unlike some people's view of healing, the salvation of your child is not guaranteed in scripture.

[Balance]

Simple, unlike some people's view of healing, the salvation of your child is not guaranteed in scripture.


What you and your buddies Jim and Jim do not recognize, though this has been explained over and over and over - the PHIA crap that you say Word of Faith teaches is NOT true and is in fact a false teaching that is only being propagated by the rabid ANTI-Word of Faithers that keep opening thread after thread promoting it.

I have posted no less than 15 times the proof (consisting of links and direct quotes), that Word of Faith's doctrinal stance is the EXACT same as the 7 major Pentecostal/Charismatic Denominations, including the Assemblies of God.

The reply is always somne type of hand grenade of accusations like "can you show me a doctrinal sight where everyone in the Word of Faith is defined. That false logic somehow gives license to make all manner of accusation about an entire movement that is based off the rabid ANTI-Word of Faithers personal stance.

Everything is then filtered through that biased viewpoint.

What the heck - even the term PHIA is found NOWHERE else but here on this portion of CF - why is that?

Because it's a false representation of what is actually taught in the Word of Faith.

Ben, I taught theology for Rhema and Faith Christian Fellowship, I further taught in KHM Healing school for four years, ministering an average of 210 times a year. I've opened healing schools in six states and four foreign countries and have personally trained more than 3,000 ministers who specialize in healing the sick.

I tell you as God as my judge, what you and the Jim's are saying about Word of Faith is wrong. I spend a portion of my time correcting some extreme bad teaching that you guys are concentrating all your time and effort on, but it's far and few.

But know this. Everytime any of you throw those hand grenades and try to prove your point by casting these accusations and imply that this garbage is a widely held beliefs of Word of Faith ministers and people

You are speaking a lie - bearing false witness -

This is the last time I post about it - do with it what you will.

Jimbeaux - I really believed your apology.

[dkbwarrior]

Geez Pinetree, I don't know! :)

Why did David commit adultery and murder?

Why do some poeple die and go to hell?

Why did jimmy Swaggart get caught with a prostitute?

Why do you use big letters that make it hard to read your post?

Alot of Christian men and women have died of sickness and disease, (I suppose that one could make the argument that we all do, it is debatable, but even if true it doesn't really matter). Alot of Christian men and women sin, (one could argue that all sin even as mature believers, it is debateable, but even if true it doesn't really matter).

Listen, we know that we still commit sin sometimes, but that doesn't mean it is Gods will for us to continue to do so. And we still sometimes get sick, but that doesn't mean it is Gods will for us to remain that way.

I mean, you seem to be saying that if one believes that it is Gods will for them to be well, and they get sick, that this proves that God wanted you sick.

That is as silly as saying that if you believe that God doesn't want you to sin, and you do, that this proves that God wanted you to sin.

Peace...

[dkbwarrior]

Simple, unlike some people's view of healing, the salvation of your child is not guaranteed in scripture.

I think you are missing the point.

We believe that God gaurantees healing in response to the prayer of faith.

Are you trying to say that God does not gaurantee their salvation if someones child prays the prayer of faith for salvation?

That appears to be what you are saying, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Peace...

[victoryword]

That is as silly as saying that if you believe that God doesn't want you to sin, and you do, that this proves that God wanted you to sin.

Unfortunately I have met a lot of people who actually believe this. They bvelieve that nothing happens apart from God's sovereign will, including sin. Crazy some of the beliefs that are out there. I wouldn't be surprised to find that some of the rabid anti-wofers here actually do adhere to this doctrine.

[Balance]

I think you are missing the point.

We believe that God gaurantees healing in response to the prayer of faith.

Are you trying to say that God does not gaurantee their salvation if someones child prays the prayer of faith for salvation, that?

That appears to be what you are saying, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Peace...

You might believe that - but the Word of Faith's doctrinal stance is that Healing of the body is PROVIDED for in the atonement.

There's an unrealistic and negative connotation to the word guarantee on this forum -

[SpiritPsalmist]

Why do some Christian's children die and go to hell because they don't get saved?


Are we positive they did not repent and are in hell? Do we really know what takes place in a persons heart...especially in those final moments?

[dkbwarrior]

You might believe that - but the Word of Faith's doctrinal stance is that Healing of the body is PROVIDED for in the atonement.

There's an unrealistic and negative connotation to the word guarantee on this forum -


That whole argument is kinda silly. It is completely semantical, and only used as a smoke screen for debate.

All gaurantees that I have ever had have conditions. And a provision is a conditional gaurantee. Six of one, half dozen of another. Yes, it is a provision of our covenant with God, but it is a provision that He gaurantees if we meet the conditions.

Just because Jim likes to obfuscate this issue doesn't mean we have to.

Peace...

[mont974x4]

He died because we all die. We are still in fleshly bodies prone to illness. We are still on this earth and prone to suffering and affliction.

The "guarantee" these false teachers sell to the masses does not exist. It's like buying an indulgence, it isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

[victoryword]

He died because we all die. We are still in fleshly bodies prone to illness. We are still on this earth and prone to suffering and affliction.

The "guarantee" these false teachers sell to the masses does not exist. It's like buying an indulgence, it isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

How about the guarantee that God gives in James 5:14-15? Is it worth the paper it's printed on or has it been dissected from your Bible already?

[mont974x4]

There is no guarantee of physical healing in this life.

This is a false teaching, giving a false hope, and has been used to dupe the masses out of cash and as a whip to beat the people who need love and compassion the most.

[victoryword]

There is no guarantee of physical healing in this life.

This is a false teaching, giving a false hope, and has been used to dupe the masses out of cash and as a whip to beat the people who need love and compassion the most.

Okay, let's try this again because either I am being ignored or just being refuted with MANTRAS.
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
The Random House Dictionary defines "shall" as "will have to, is determined to, or definitely will." If the Bible does not mean what it says then it is untrustworthy, all of its promises, including the ones concerning salvation, are a sham, and the Bible should be thrown away.

God says that the prayer prayed in faith "shall" or "definitely will" save the sick. Some of you say it is not guaranteed. Who should I believe? You or the Bible?

[mont974x4]

That does not say the sick will be healed instantly. That does not even say it will occur in this life.

You seemed to skip this part, which encourages us to be patient in our afflictions, whatever they may be:

NASB
Jas 5:7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains.
Jas 5:8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
Jas 5:9 Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.
Jas 5:10 As an example, brethren, of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord.
Jas 5:11 We count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.


healing is gauranteed. What is not guaranteed is the "when". The timing is still up to God. Does healing occur in this life? Yes. Do some faithful and godly people have to wait until they get their new body? Yes.

[Tamara224]

That does not say the sick will be healed instantly. That does not even say it will occur in this life.

You seemed to skip this part, which encourages us to be patient in our afflictions, whatever they may be:

NASB
Jas 5:7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains.
Jas 5:8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
Jas 5:9 Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.
Jas 5:10 As an example, brethren, of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord.
Jas 5:11 We count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.


healing is gauranteed. What is not guaranteed is the "when". The timing is still up to God. Does healing occur in this life? Yes. Do some faithful and godly people have to wait until they get their new body? Yes.





:thumbsup:


And:

Romans 8:22-25

22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

[victoryword]

That does not say the sick will be healed instantly. That does not even say it will occur in this life.

You seemed to skip this part, which encourages us to be patient in our afflictions, whatever they may be:

NASB
Jas 5:7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains.
Jas 5:8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
Jas 5:9 Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.
Jas 5:10 As an example, brethren, of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord.
Jas 5:11 We count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.


healing is gauranteed. What is not guaranteed is the "when". The timing is still up to God. Does healing occur in this life? Yes. Do some faithful and godly people have to wait until they get their new body? Yes.




Ah, the argument from silence fallacy. I think any unbias reader who read James 5:14-15 without the anti-pentecostal, anti-healing, or anti-wof bias would clearly see that the promise is for NOW. Otherwise why would the elders need to anoint him with oil? Is it to embalm the person and ready them for their funeral? It would appear to me that the anointing of oil is meant to bring the healing in this life:

Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Mar 6:13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.

Now, do you want to claim that the disciples of Jesus anointed people with oil and many of them died only to be healed in the next life? If you do, that would definitely be adding to Scripture. No my friend, what keeps us going is the fact that the Bible promises of God's goodness can be expected in this life:

Psa 27:13 I had fainted, unless I had believed to see the goodness of the LORD in the land of the living.

Healing is for those who are in the land of the living. James 5:14-15 is for the here and now. To say anything other than that is to read one's bias into the passage.

[~RENEE~]

Why didn't Kenny copeland go heal him?
Many people are looking to man to heal them. Look to Jesus the author and the finisher of our faith.

[mont974x4]

It stands to reason that if you are going to claim physical healing is guaranteed in this life the burden of proof is on you.


There's plenty of godly faithful men and women who suffer various ailments and they all die eventually.


Even those healed through the apostles, through medicine, through whatever means were healed by God...and they died eventually, and likely suffered colds, flus, and what have you from time to time.



You accuse of bias without acknowledging your own obvious bias? I think there's a word for that.


I admit I'm biased. I'm biased towards the reality of life and the truth of Gods Word. I am biased against false teachers and the lies they spread. I am biased against WoF, which used to beat down a dear friend of mine who had a miscarriage because she "sinned" and she "lacked faith" despite her being one of the most faithful women in that fellowship.

[~RENEE~]

There is no guarantee of physical healing in this life.
There is an offered promise. Just salvation is an offered promise.

[mont974x4]

Healing is promised, but not guaranteed to occur in this life. Which is my main point.

[~RENEE~]

Healing is promised, but not guaranteed to occur in this life. Which is my main point.
I fyou will go back and read. The most of the people saying guaranteed is the anti word of faith group.

[mont974x4]

possibly, but it's the WOFers implying that it is guaranteed, even if they are unwilling to use the word.

[~RENEE~]

This is what the Word of faith group is saying Main Entry: pro·vide http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?provid01.wav=provide')) Pronunciation: \prə-ˈvīd\ Function: verb Inflected Form(s): pro·vid·ed; pro·vid·ing Etymology: Middle English, from Latin providēre, literally, to see ahead, from pro- forward + vidēre to see — more at pro- (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pro-), wit (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wit) Date: 15th century intransitive verb1: to take precautionary measures <provide for the common defense — United States Constitution>2: to make a proviso (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proviso) or stipulation <the Constitution…provides for an elected two-chamber legislature — Current Biography>3: to make preparation to meet a need <provide for entertainment>; especially : to supply something for sustenance or support <provides for the poor>transitive verb1archaic : to prepare in advance2 a: to supply or make available (something wanted or needed) <provided new uniforms for the band>; also : afford (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/afford) <curtains provide privacy> b: to make something available to <provide the children with free balloons>3: to have as a condition : stipulate (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stipulate) <the contract provides that certain deadlines will be met
this is what the anti word of faith group is using. Main Entry: 2guarantee Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): guaranteed; guarantee·ing Date: 1731 1 : to undertake to answer for the debt, default, or miscarriage of <guarantee a loan> 2 : to engage for the existence, permanence, or nature of : undertake to do or secure <guarantee the winning of three tricks> 3 : to give security to <guaranteed her against loss> 4 : to assert confidently <I guarantee you'll like it>
Am i the only one that see's the differance here?

[mont974x4]

Sorry, you are missing something. One of your own called it a guarantee and said something about it having conditions.


God is not a cosmic santa clause waiting for our wish list to come to Him. God is not a man old man demanding we accomplish a set number of good works or read so much Scripture a day, or achieve a certain leval of faithfulness or pioty before He acts on our behalf.


At any given moment I know that God is giving me exactly what He knows I need, and not what I think I need. He's an awesome Father like that.

[geetrue]

We are suppose to admonish one another according to the scriptures.

Romans 15:14
And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

Col 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

2 Thess 3:15
15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.







Could that mean, jibe, chide, kid into seeing things God's way?

Isn't that what we are really doing?

[pinetree]

WHY ARE YOU JUDGING THE WILL OF GOD BASED OFF THE FAILINGS OF A MAN/WOMAN?


DO BIG RED LETTERS MAKE MY POST BETTER?

medium fonts..:D

The fact that you say,HER FAILINGS,clearly shows that you do not understand that faith comes by grace!

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. Eph 2:9

Romans 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=1&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.


Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.


1 Timothy 1:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&verse=14&version=31&context=verse)
The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

Faith is a gift,it is not of you!

Your statement shows that you think all the effort,and thefore the results,are up to the individual,that is not grace,my friend,that is works orientated Christianity.

[~RENEE~]

faith comes by grace!
Romans 10:17
King James Bible (http://kingjbible.com/romans/10.htm)
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

American King James Version (http://kjv.us/romans/10.htm)
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
American Standard Version (http://asvbible.com/romans/10.htm)
So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Bible in Basic English (http://basicenglishbible.com/romans/10.htm)
So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Douay-Rheims Bible (http://drb.scripturetext.com/romans/10.htm)
Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.
New American Standard Bible (http://nasb.scripturetext.com/romans/10.htm) (©1995) (http://www.lockman.org/)
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

[arielette]

Hmmm. When I was a young girl I was involved in what could be called a WoF organisation -- it's called the Way Ministry and many consider it a cult. I believed in healing absolutely. When I was married at 19, I could not have children. I believed "by his stripes were you healed" but my faith was in vain. I told my uncle who died of cancer around the same time (he was only 32) that I had prayed for him and he would live. He did not. I lost my faith big time. This is a huge big nasty monster in this room. Lets stop arguing and get to the bottom of it, or more people will have to go through a desert time before coming back to the faith like I did. This is not abstract for some -- careful --

[pinetree]

Romans 10:17
King James Bible (http://kingjbible.com/romans/10.htm)
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

American King James Version (http://kjv.us/romans/10.htm)
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
American Standard Version (http://asvbible.com/romans/10.htm)
So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Bible in Basic English (http://basicenglishbible.com/romans/10.htm)
So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Douay-Rheims Bible (http://drb.scripturetext.com/romans/10.htm)
Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.
New American Standard Bible (http://nasb.scripturetext.com/romans/10.htm) (©1995) (http://www.lockman.org/)
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Amen my sister!

Acts 20:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=20&verse=32&version=49&context=verse)
"And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

if you agree,it all comes as an impartation,from Him,why is the burden often placed on the beleiver,to do something he cant do.A supernatural act..

faith and grace come as one..

your bro pineanator:D

[Balance]

Faith is a gift,it is not of you!


so you are not saved by Grace through faith?

Romans 10:8-10 has nothing to do with you??

Hmmm......

[pinetree]

Hmmm. When I was a young girl I was involved in what could be called a WoF organisation -- it's called the Way Ministry and many consider it a cult. I believed in healing absolutely. When I was married at 19, I could not have children. I believed "by his stripes were you healed" but my faith was in vain. I told my uncle who died of cancer around the same time (he was only 32) that I had prayed for him and he would live. He did not. I lost my faith big time. This is a huge big nasty monster in this room. Lets stop arguing and get to the bottom of it, or more people will have to go through a desert time before coming back to the faith like I did. This is not abstract for some -- careful --
Thank you for sharing your heartfelt story..

[Balance]

Your statement shows that you think all the effort,and thefore the results,are up to the individual,that is not grace,my friend,that is works orientated Christianity.

No - what you believe my statement says is something completely different from what reality is.

Tell me - you pray for someone's salvation and they die without ever being saved -

Does that mean it was God's will that they die and go to hell forever?

Not a bait - I really want to know.

[pinetree]

Simple, unlike some people's view of healing, the salvation of your child is not guaranteed in scripture.
short and sweet and to the point!:thumbsup:

[pinetree]

Geez Pinetree, I don't know! :)

Why did David commit adultery and murder?

Why do some poeple die and go to hell?

Why did jimmy Swaggart get caught with a prostitute?

Why do you use big letters that make it hard to read your post?

Alot of Christian men and women have died of sickness and disease, (I suppose that one could make the argument that we all do, it is debatable, but even if true it doesn't really matter). Alot of Christian men and women sin, (one could argue that all sin even as mature believers, it is debateable, but even if true it doesn't really matter).

Listen, we know that we still commit sin sometimes, but that doesn't mean it is Gods will for us to continue to do so. And we still sometimes get sick, but that doesn't mean it is Gods will for us to remain that way.

I mean, you seem to be saying that if one believes that it is Gods will for them to be well, and they get sick, that this proves that God wanted you sick.

That is as silly as saying that if you believe that God doesn't want you to sin, and you do, that this proves that God wanted you to sin.

Peace...
just give it alot of thought..;)

by the way,why are you comparing the faith teachers,uncontrollable illness,to adulterers,and murderers willful sin?

The sick and dying faith teachers,could not help their situation could they?

By the way,are you going to funeral parlors tommorow?

I mean if healings are for all,so must the dead being raised to,we cant omit 1/2 of the verse..

Matthew 10:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

[~RENEE~]

Oh BTW Pine

I was just readin this with Cecil in my arms. And he raspberried you. :P

[arielette]

Sigh. Why should the people on t.v. be different from anyone else?

[pinetree]

Unfortunately I have met a lot of people who actually believe this. They bvelieve that nothing happens apart from God's sovereign will, including sin. Crazy some of the beliefs that are out there. I wouldn't be surprised to find that some of the rabid anti-wofers here actually do adhere to this doctrine.
Ya know bro,,shouldn't you be busy at those funeral parlors..

Matthew 10:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

I mean if you are going to be a doer of the word:thumbsup:,you cant omit 1/2 of the verse.

I am still waiting to see you guys toss a mountain into the sea,unless of course you want to omit that verse too..:D

i mean if you are going to tell a sick saint that it is not Gods will for them to be sick,cant they say,go raise the dead to you..?
It is in the same verse,is it not?

[pinetree]

Oh BTW Pine

I was just readin this with Cecil in my arms. And he raspberried you. :P
anytime that little guy,that futrue man of God wants to rasberry brother pinetree,I am most honored.:thumbsup::)

give him a big hug from me,and my wife sitting here!

[probinson]

I have a better question;

Why do you use the tragedies of other people to further your doctrinal agendas?

Can I ask you a sincere question; Do you even care about Paula White, or the fact that she just lost her son? Is it really that important to prove your doctrinal position that you capitalize on the tragedies of others to do so?

How about we take this opportunity to step back and pray for our sister Paula, who is most certainly hurting right now, and save the debate for one of the other 1,000 threads on the topic?

I really expected more from you, pinetree.

[pinetree]

He died because we all die. We are still in fleshly bodies prone to illness. We are still on this earth and prone to suffering and affliction.

The "guarantee" these false teachers sell to the masses does not exist. It's like buying an indulgence, it isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
ahhh a breath of truth,reality,and fresh air..

you Montana bros must not have to many toxins in the clean air up there.:thumbsup:

you can see clearly!

[JimfromOhio]

Romans 10:17
King James Bible (http://kingjbible.com/romans/10.htm)
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

American King James Version (http://kjv.us/romans/10.htm)
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
American Standard Version (http://asvbible.com/romans/10.htm)
So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Bible in Basic English (http://basicenglishbible.com/romans/10.htm)
So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Douay-Rheims Bible (http://drb.scripturetext.com/romans/10.htm)
Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.
New American Standard Bible (http://nasb.scripturetext.com/romans/10.htm) (©1995) (http://www.lockman.org/)
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

In the FAMOUS verse, Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God which backs up by Jesus in John 6:29 "The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent." Jesus said again in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. Since faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit by the conviction to submit into action, we are focus on our faith based on obedience to holiness, adding to our faith and fruit of the spirit through grace. Working on of faith means nothing if you don't act on your faith. If you don't act, then you don't have faith that the Holy Spirit provides through GRACE.

[~RENEE~]

good morning brother benadam.

It was broadcast on TBN..

below are more that I borrowed from ~Jim..

Oral Roberts wears a pacemaker.
Kenneth Hagin (who has made the most outlandish statements regarding guaranteed healing for believers) died Sept.19,. 2003 in the cardiac intensive care unit of a Tulsa hospital after suffering a heart attack. Hagin’s sister had previously died unhealed of cancer.
Buddy Harrison Hagin’s son-in-law and founder of Harrison House Publishing, the largest disseminator of the PHIA doctrine, died of unhealed cancer in December 1999.
E.W. Kenyon died in 1948 while in a unhealed comatose cancerous state.
Charles Capps wife, Beverly, is under constant psychiatric care and uses meds to maintain unhealed emotional balance.
Kathryn Kuhlman died of unhealed heart failure in 1976 after suffering from a heart condition for twenty years.
Joyce Meyers has been medically treated for unhealed breast cancer.
John Osteen, although his wife Dodie was miraculously healed of liver cancer in the mid-1980s, himself died in a hospital of an unhealed heart condition. Osteen had suffered numerous unhealed medical problems.
Frederick Price’s wife, Betty, has undergone chemotherapy.
T.L. Osborne’s wife, Daisy, died in 1995 of unhealed cancer.
Rod Parsley has had back surgery and his son Austin suffers from Asperger's syndrome, form of autism.
R.W. Shambach has had quadruple bypass surgery.
William Branham died in 1965, at age 56, from complication following an automobile accident.
A.A. Allen died of in San Francisco in1970 of sclerosis of the liver (brought on by alcohol toxicity) and cardiac arrest.
Jack Coe died in 1956 of unhealed polio.
Robert Kelso Carter, the father and originator of the modern physical-healing-is-in-the-atonement-doctrine (c.1884 with the book The Atonement for Sin and Sickness), died of tuberculosis in 1998. To his credit, he recanted the atonement-for-sickness doctrine after seeing its lack of effectiveness and being unable to adequate answer its challenges in his book Faith Healing Reviewed After Twenty Years, returning to medical school, and setting up a medical practice in Baltimore in 1895. He wrote the song, “Standing On the Promises.” Here’s a bio of Carter-click here (http://healingandrevival.com/BioRKCarter.htm).
And _____________ Renée _________ was born with spina bifida mylomengocele, mytral valve prolaspe, arthritis and today spina bifida, a leaky mytral valve, arthritis, severe asthma severe allergies and PCOS. Satan has put this garbage on me. But he is a liar and God is truth. I stand on His word HE IS THE LORD HEALETH ME.

Cecil was born with a distended pelvis, Tetralogy of Fallot, an abnormally small vertebrae and severe asthma and allergies. Once again it IS from Satan not from God.

Thank you Jesus for paying the price for Cecil's healing. For Lord it is in you and you alone.

[pinetree]

No - what you believe my statement says is something completely different from what reality is.

Tell me - you pray for someone's salvation and they die without ever being saved -

Does that mean it was God's will that they die and go to hell forever?

Not a bait - I really want to know.

before we go to your question ,my friend..:)

lets finish mine first,to retain order.:)

you clearly said,it was because of Paulas failings,that her sin died,did you not?

That clearly puts all the burden of not having faith on her..or her son..

I mean you have to put the blame somewhere it seems.
Instead of realizing maybe,just maybe,God took the young man home.

Why blame her,she or the young sick or diying man,can only have the faith God gives through his grace,so why blame her?

it clearly shows where you place your emphasis..

ON THE BELEIVER,NOT THE PROVIDER!.

[JimfromOhio]

I have a better question;

Why do you use the tragedies of other people to further your doctrinal agendas?

Can I ask you a sincere question; Do you even care about Paula White, or the fact that she just lost her son? Is it really that important to prove your doctrinal position that you capitalize on the tragedies of others to do so?

How about we take this opportunity to step back and pray for our sister Paula, who is most certainly hurting right now, and save the debate for one of the other 1,000 threads on the topic?

I really expected more from you, pinetree.

At least he is provoking thoughts of lurkers and making people aware of the flaws. We are not to a "tunnel vision" on healing doctrines (i.e. Word of Faith). A good witness isn't like a salesperson selling wealth and health simply because saleslperson focuses on the products (wealth & health) rather than the true source which is spiritual salvation.

[pinetree]

And _____________ Renée _________ was born with spina bifida mylomengocele, mytral valve prolaspe, arthritis and today spina bifida, a leaky mytral valve, arthritis, severe asthma severe allergies and PCOS. Satan has put this garbage on me. But he is a liar and God is truth. I stand on His word HE IS THE LORD HEALETH ME.

Cecil was born with a distended pelvis, Tetralogy of Fallot, an abnormally small vertebrae and severe asthma and allergies. Once again it IS from Satan not from God.

Thank you Jesus for paying the price for Cecil's healing. For Lord it is in you and you alone.
And I often commend your stand in faith.:thumbsup:

[arielette]

it clearly shows where you place your emphasis..

ON THE BELEIVER,NOT THE PROVIDER!.

I believe this is the crux of the issue. If God did not take the initiative with me on a daily basis, helping me with my very imperfect faith, I would be road kill.

[pinetree]

At least he is provoking thoughts of lurkers and making people aware of the flaws. We are not to a "tunnel vision" on healing doctrines (i.e. Word of Faith). A good witness isn't like a salesperson selling wealth and health simply because saleslperson focuses on the products (wealth & health) rather than the true source which is spiritual salvation.
Thank you Jim,for presuming my best.:)

[Faithful Love]

I will play Doubting Thomas here -- I would like a link to the OP story.

There is no information I can find on Paula White's website, TBN, or in any search engines.

[pinetree]

I believe this is the crux of the issue. If God did not take the initiative with me on a daily basis, helping me with my very imperfect faith, I would be road kill.
Amen,if you search all the grace scriptures,it will astound anyone,just how pivital it is to our faith..

Grace and truth,were realized in Jesus Christ. John 1:17

[mont974x4]

ahhh a breath of truth,reality,and fresh air..

you Montana bros must not have to many toxins in the clean air up there.:thumbsup:

you can see clearly!


Yep, even with some of you Texas transplants. LOL


to be fair, I'm a transplant too, but I've been here long enough to be accepted by most. :P

[pinetree]

Yep, even with some of you Texas transplants. LOL


to be fair, I'm a transplant too, but I've been here long enough to be accepted by most. :P
I dont know where you moved from,but was there an accent barrier..:D

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Why did Jesus raise from the dead?

i dont quite know what you are trying to say.:)

Why didn't He raise MORE people from the dead? Why just Lazarus and the daughter of Jairus?

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

WHY ARE YOU JUDGING THE WILL OF GOD BASED OFF THE FAILINGS OF A MAN/WOMAN?
Why do you judge an unavoidable tragedy -- someone dying of a disease -- to be the "failing" of ANYONE??

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Why do some Christian's children die and go to hell because they don't get saved?

Why do some Christians still believe false dogmas about God wanting to roast them alive when He has already sent His Son to prove otherwise -- yet refuse to believe the very clear statement of 1 Corinthians 15:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=22&version=9&context=verse)??? :P

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Simple, unlike some people's view of healing, the salvation of your child is not guaranteed in scripture.

Moriah's bes.
1 Corinthians 15:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=22&version=9&context=verse)

[pinetree]

Why didn't He raise MORE people from the dead? Why just Lazarus and the daughter of Jairus?
I dont know,but scripture says,he did much more than all the books can contain,maybe he did more raisings too.:)

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

There is no guarantee of physical healing in this life.

This is a false teaching, giving a false hope, and has been used to dupe the masses out of cash and as a whip to beat the people who need love and compassion the most.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quoted for Truth

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Okay, let's try this again because either I am being ignored or just being refuted with MANTRAS.Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
The Random House Dictionary defines "shall" as "will have to, is determined to, or definitely will." If the Bible does not mean what it says then it is untrustworthy, all of its promises, including the ones concerning salvation, are a sham, and the Bible should be thrown away.

God says that the prayer prayed in faith "shall" or "definitely will" save the sick. Some of you say it is not guaranteed. Who should I believe? You or the Bible?

OK, so when this gets done and healing does not occur, what would be the cause of that, then?

Have we degenerated back into the twisted Pharisaic thinking Jesus worked so hard to bust open and deconstruct as nonsense, that health and prosperity (and heck, maybe being pretty/handsome or thin/lean too, who knows?) all bes signs of God's favor and therefore those persons should be well-treated, while sickness, afflictions, deformities, poverty (and heck, maybe being ugly or fat, too, who knows?) bes signs of God's disfavor -- specifically upon some horrible unknown and unnamed sins those rotten persons MUST have committed to incur so much wrath from Him -- and therefore they should be not merely disfavored by men also but actively mistreated and outright ostracised or shunned for spiritual lepers???

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Romans 10:17
King James Bible (http://kingjbible.com/romans/10.htm)
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

American King James Version (http://kjv.us/romans/10.htm)
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
American Standard Version (http://asvbible.com/romans/10.htm)
So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Bible in Basic English (http://basicenglishbible.com/romans/10.htm)
So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Douay-Rheims Bible (http://drb.scripturetext.com/romans/10.htm)
Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.
New American Standard Bible (http://nasb.scripturetext.com/romans/10.htm) (©1995) (http://www.lockman.org/)
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

And how much part did you or Moriah or Monty or any other creature in flesh have in bringing that Word into being for any of us to hear, hmmm?

None? Thought so.

Again, it bes the gift of God, not of works, lest ANY man should boast. The avenue by which it comes to us does not alter the fact that none of us can generate it ourselves or that every one of us bes wholly, utterly, helplessly dependent upon God for obtaining it.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Wheee lookaddit talksy to itself. :P
*vanishes*

[~RENEE~]

And how much part did you or Moriah or Monty or any other creature in flesh have in bringing that Word into being for any of us to hear, hmmm?Not a bit Moriah not a bit. It was all Jesus and Him alone.

[~RENEE~]

Why didn't He raise MORE people from the dead? Why just Lazarus and the daughter of Jairus?actually dear do you remember the funeral procession that Jesus stopped and raised the dead to life?

[Seeking Him]

I think it is cruel to imply that if someone isn't healed or healed yet, that they don't have the faith. People who are sick are fighting a battle as it is, they are suffering. They don't need the added pain that they have to get the faith to be healed or that they are not doing something right.

God is kind and full of compassion. But this doctrine is not. And so, the love of God goes out the window, as it does whenever these strange doctrines are exalted above the mercy of Christ.

Not to long ago Benny Hinn said he had a back problem and had pain for 9 months. Then he was healed. He said he never realized how bad it is for people who are suffering with pain and sickness until this happened. He said the experience gave him so much more compassion for the sick because of what he suffered.

[Seeking Him]

OK, so when this gets done and healing does not occur, what would be the cause of that, then?

Have we degenerated back into the twisted Pharisaic thinking Jesus worked so hard to bust open and deconstruct as nonsense, that health and prosperity (and heck, maybe being pretty/handsome or thin/lean too, who knows?) all bes signs of God's favor and therefore those persons should be well-treated, while sickness, afflictions, deformities, poverty (and heck, maybe being ugly or fat, too, who knows?) bes signs of God's disfavor -- specifically upon some horrible unknown and unnamed sins those rotten persons MUST have committed to incur so much wrath from Him -- and therefore they should be not merely disfavored by men also but actively mistreated and outright ostracised or shunned for spiritual lepers??? Well said, God favors all his children, especially those who are suffering. Look at all the suffering our Lord went through for us, He bore are griefs and carried our sorrows. He went through it all for us, one who can be touched with the feelings of our infirmities. "For the same Lord is over them all, and He is infinitely kind to all who call upon Him" Romans 10:12

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I think it is cruel to imply that if someone isn't healed or healed yet, that they don't have the faith. People who are sick are fighting a battle as it is, they are suffering. They don't need the added pain that they have to get the faith to be healed or that they are not doing something right.

God is kind and full of compassion. But this doctrine is not. And so, the love of God goes out the window, as it does whenever these strange doctrines are exalted above the mercy of Christ.
Completely agree. :thumbsup:

Not to long ago Benny Hinn said he had a back problem and had pain for 9 months. Then he was healed. He said he never realized how bad it is for people who are suffering with pain and sickness until this happened. He said the experience gave him so much more compassion for the sick because of what he suffered.
And here we have it: suffering produces compassion in us, or more to the point, returns us to it. When we do not suffer we inadvertently lose touch with those who do, and can no longer be truly and deeply TOUCHED with the feelings of their infirmities. As Jesus desires to make us over in HIS image, and since HE bes touched with the feelings of OUR infirmities, He in turn desires that we should be as well -- but it bes the nature of human flesh (or what Merlin in Excalibur called "the doom of man") that we forget. In His infinite mercy and desire to bring His Body into true love-bonded unity, He permits us to have experiences that put us in direct awareness of the needs and hurts of others.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Well said, God favors all his children, especially those who are suffering. Look at all the suffering our Lord went through for us, He bore are griefs and carried our sorrows. He went through it all for us, one who can be touched with the feelings of our infirmities. "For the same Lord is over them all, and He is infinitely kind to all who call upon Him" Romans 10:12
Wow! Talk about synched up! :thumbsup: Finished the post above BEFORE reading your next one here. Second witnessing each other!! Awesome God!!! ^_^

[Seeking Him]

Completely agree. :thumbsup:


And here we have it: suffering produces compassion in us, or more to the point, returns us to it. When we do not suffer we inadvertently lose touch with those who do, and can no longer be truly and deeply TOUCHED with the feelings of their infirmities. As Jesus desires to make us over in HIS image, and since HE bes touched with the feelings of OUR infirmities, He in turn desires that we should be as well -- but it bes the nature of human flesh (or what Merlin in Excalibur called "the doom of man") that we forget. In His infinite mercy and desire to bring His Body into true love-bonded unity, He permits us to have experiences that put us in direct awareness of the needs and hurts of others.
That was excellent:)

[probinson]

I will play Doubting Thomas here -- I would like a link to the OP story.

There is no information I can find on Paula White's website, TBN, or in any search engines.
Odd...

No news headline. Nothing on Paula's website. Nothing at TBN... Nothing anywhere on the Internet that I can find.

What gives, pinetree? Why is there nothing about this anywhere? Can you source your OP?

[pinetree]

Odd...

No news headline. Nothing on Paula's website. Nothing at TBN... Nothing anywhere on the Internet that I can find.

What gives, pinetree? Why is there nothing about this anywhere? Can you source your OP?
really,do you think I made it up,it was about a month ago,it will come out sooner or later.

[probinson]

really,do you think I made it up,it was about a month ago,it will come out sooner or later.
What?

You want me to believe that Paula White's son died a month ago, and it's not all over the Internet?

Source?

[pinetree]

What?

You want me to believe that Paula White's son died a month ago, and it's not all over the Internet?

Source?
your right,my wife just reminded me,it was over 2 months ago..my apologies

we have been busy..

careful not to pounce to hard there Pete,it will come out ya now..

[probinson]

your right,my wife just reminded me,it was over 2 months ago..my apologies

we have been busy..

careful not to pounce to hard there Pete,it will come out ya now..
Dude, I'm not pouncing, I'm simply asking for a source.

However, your OP states that Paula White's son "just" died of a disease. You made that abundantly clear by using ridiculously large fonts to convey the message. When pressed for a source, you then said that it was "broadcast on TBN". But now, you're saying that it happened 2 months ago, but yet there is not one mention of it to be found on the Interenet, anywhere.

I find it incredibly difficult to believe in this information age that Paula White's son died over 2 months ago, and there is nary a word of it ANYWHERE on the Internet.

We had a local guy here die in a small plane crash last year, and it was all over the Internet within 2 hours (not 2 months) of the crash.

So this is not a pouncing. This is a request for you to source your infromation, which I find suspect for the reasons listed above.

Prove me wrong.

[JuanOfAKind]

Why did "faith teacher" Paula Whites son just die of a disease?

Why didn't Kenny copeland go heal him?

Some are in a history denial of 2000 years, of alot christians across the planet not being healed!

There are plenty more examples of other "faith teachers" who have physical issues too!

Our prayers go out to her,and her family.

He died because he died. Everyone had an appointment with death (Heb 9:27). Some appointments arrive sooner than others.

[pinetree]

Dude, I'm not pouncing, I'm simply asking for a source.

However, your OP states that Paula White's son "just" died of a disease. You made that abundantly clear by using ridiculously large fonts to convey the message. When pressed for a source, you then said that it was "broadcast on TBN". But now, you're saying that it happened 2 months ago, but yet there is not one mention of it to be found on the Interenet, anywhere.

I find it incredibly difficult to believe in this information age that Paula White's son died over 2 months ago, and there is nary a word of it ANYWHERE on the Internet.

We had a local guy here die in a small plane crash last year, and it was all over the Internet within 2 hours (not 2 months) of the crash.

So this is not a pouncing. This is a request for you to source your infromation, which I find suspect for the reasons listed above.

Prove me wrong.
Dude,while you are waiting,here is more for you to study in the mean time..

Oral Roberts wears a pacemaker.
Kenneth Hagin (who has made the most outlandish statements regarding guaranteed healing for believers) died unhealed Sept.19,. 2003 in the cardiac intensive care unit of a Tulsa hospital after suffering a heart attack. Hagin’s sister had previously died unhealed of cancer.
Buddy Harrison Hagin’s son-in-law and founder of Harrison House Publishing, the largest disseminator of the PHIA doctrine, died of unhealed cancer in December 1999.

E.W. Kenyon died in 1948 while in a unhealed comatose cancerous state.

Charles Capps wife, Beverly, is under constant psychiatric care and uses meds to maintain unhealed emotional balance.

Kathryn Kuhlman died of unhealed heart failure in 1976 after suffering from a heart condition for twenty years.

Joyce Meyers has been medically treated for unhealed breast cancer.

John Osteen, although his wife Dodie was miraculously healed of liver cancer in the mid-1980s, himself died in a hospital of an unhealed heart condition. Osteen had suffered numerous unhealed medical problems.

Frederick Price’s wife, Betty, has undergone chemotherapy.

T.L. Osborne’s wife, Daisy, died in 1995 of unhealed cancer.

Rod Parsley has had back surgery and his son Austin suffers from Asperger's syndrome, a form of autism.

R.W. Shambach has had quadruple bypass surgery.

William Branham died in 1965, at age 56, from complication following an automobile accident.

A.A. Allen died of in San Francisco in1970 of sclerosis of the liver (brought on by alcohol toxicity) and cardiac arrest.

Jack Coe died in 1956 of unhealed polio.

Robert Kelso Carter, the father and originator of the modern physical-healing-is-in-the-atonement-doctrine (c.1884 with the book The Atonement for Sin and Sickness), died of tuberculosis in 1898. To his credit, he recanted the atonement-for-sickness doctrine after seeing its lack of effectiveness and being unable to adequate answer its challenges in his book Faith Healing Reviewed After Twenty Years, returning to medical school, and setting up a medical practice in Baltimore in 1895. He wrote the song, “Standing On the Promises.” Here’s a bio of Carter-click here (http://healingandrevival.com/BioRKCarter.htm).

[probinson]

Dude,while you are waiting,here is more for you to study in the mean time..
Oral Roberts wears a pacemaker.
Kenneth Hagin (who has made the most outlandish statements regarding guaranteed healing for believers) died unhealed Sept.19,. 2003 in the cardiac intensive care unit of a Tulsa hospital after suffering a heart attack. Hagin’s sister had previously died unhealed of cancer.
Buddy Harrison Hagin’s son-in-law and founder of Harrison House Publishing, the largest disseminator of the PHIA doctrine, died of unhealed cancer in December 1999.

E.W. Kenyon died in 1948 while in a unhealed comatose cancerous state.

Charles Capps wife, Beverly, is under constant psychiatric care and uses meds to maintain unhealed emotional balance.

Kathryn Kuhlman died of unhealed heart failure in 1976 after suffering from a heart condition for twenty years.

Joyce Meyers has been medically treated for unhealed breast cancer.

John Osteen, although his wife Dodie was miraculously healed of liver cancer in the mid-1980s, himself died in a hospital of an unhealed heart condition. Osteen had suffered numerous unhealed medical problems.

Frederick Price’s wife, Betty, has undergone chemotherapy.

T.L. Osborne’s wife, Daisy, died in 1995 of unhealed cancer.

Rod Parsley has had back surgery and his son Austin suffers from Asperger's syndrome, a form of autism.

R.W. Shambach has had quadruple bypass surgery.

William Branham died in 1965, at age 56, from complication following an automobile accident.

A.A. Allen died of in San Francisco in1970 of sclerosis of the liver (brought on by alcohol toxicity) and cardiac arrest.

Jack Coe died in 1956 of unhealed polio.

Robert Kelso Carter, the father and originator of the modern physical-healing-is-in-the-atonement-doctrine (c.1884 with the book The Atonement for Sin and Sickness), died of tuberculosis in 1898. To his credit, he recanted the atonement-for-sickness doctrine after seeing its lack of effectiveness and being unable to adequate answer its challenges in his book Faith Healing Reviewed After Twenty Years, returning to medical school, and setting up a medical practice in Baltimore in 1895. He wrote the song, “Standing On the Promises.” Here’s a bio of Carter-click here (http://healingandrevival.com/BioRKCarter.htm).

Why would I study a list of fallible human beings and their sicknesses? And why do you keep posting the same thing over and over again? I saw this list 3 years ago when Jim posted it, before you ever came to this forum.

I think, perhaps, if you'd learn that these men aren't perfect, just like you and I aren't perfect, you might start to understand where I'm coming from.

In any event, dude, I'm waiting FOR YOU to source YOUR information.

That's not pouncing, my friend. Call it "berean", searching the Internet to see if your claim is so. ;)

[pinetree]

Why would I study a list of fallible human beings and their sicknesses? And why do you keep posting the same thing over and over again? I saw this list 3 years ago when Jim posted it, before you ever came to this forum.

I think, perhaps, if you'd learn that these men aren't perfect, just like you and I aren't perfect, you might start to understand where I'm coming from.

In any event, dude, I'm waiting FOR YOU to source YOUR information.

That's not pouncing, my friend. Call it "berean", searching the Internet to see if your claim is so. ;)
let me tell ya one thing friend..

I am not going to put to much energy into it.

God is my witness,thats all I need.

if nothing is found,no problem,my concience is clear before God.

It was a quick,short statement mentioned.My wife and I saw and heard it clearly.

Give it a chance cowboy...time will tell.

Please,do persue me though,I enjoy the challenge!:thumbsup:

[Jimbeaux]

Why would I study a list of fallible human beings and their sicknesses?

*****

Because these are the founders, teachers and vanguards of WOFism, the brand of Christianity you/others hold up in this forum as the true and living way. On the one hand they teach that a Christian should never be ill and if he is healing is always provided for him because in the Atonement … blah, blah ... all you need to do is believe ... blah, blah ...

Only the doctrine does not work for them in practice like it does on paper (or TV screen) any more than it works for anyone else, despite all their/your claims to the contrary, yet they/you keep on teaching it as the truth of God’s word when it is, at the very best, nothing better than a flawed an disproved supposition. The proof of the pie is in the eating and the PHIA pie is full of sand and dispproven in the lives of those pioneers of WOF who have suffered “death by faith,” I guess.

That’s why.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[ImmersionX]

Ok I have read NONE of this thread...but to answer the OP's question(in the title):

Cause he's human.

Peace and God Bless.

[mont974x4]

I have not found anything verifying that her son died.

A quick Google did show reports that she has denied Christ, and she was divorced last year. Of course, being divorced isn't so much a sin as the reasons cited for the divorce.

[pinetree]

I have not found anything verifying that her son died.

A quick Google did show reports that she has denied Christ, and she was divorced last year. Of course, being divorced isn't so much a sin as the reasons cited for the divorce.

wow,i dont know whether to:D or :cry:

Thanks for the help friend.:)
All I know is,my wife and I both saw a brief statement about it,on tbn,about 2 months ago.

Maybe because the net is so clogged with all the senate money investigation stuff too.

[Jere209]

Dude,while you are waiting,here is more for you to study in the mean time..

Oral Roberts wears a pacemaker.
Kenneth Hagin (who has made the most outlandish statements regarding guaranteed healing for believers) died unhealed Sept.19,. 2003 in the cardiac intensive care unit of a Tulsa hospital after suffering a heart attack. Hagin’s sister had previously died unhealed of cancer.
Buddy Harrison Hagin’s son-in-law and founder of Harrison House Publishing, the largest disseminator of the PHIA doctrine, died of unhealed cancer in December 1999.

E.W. Kenyon died in 1948 while in a unhealed comatose cancerous state.

Charles Capps wife, Beverly, is under constant psychiatric care and uses meds to maintain unhealed emotional balance.

Kathryn Kuhlman died of unhealed heart failure in 1976 after suffering from a heart condition for twenty years.

Joyce Meyers has been medically treated for unhealed breast cancer.

John Osteen, although his wife Dodie was miraculously healed of liver cancer in the mid-1980s, himself died in a hospital of an unhealed heart condition. Osteen had suffered numerous unhealed medical problems.

Frederick Price’s wife, Betty, has undergone chemotherapy.

T.L. Osborne’s wife, Daisy, died in 1995 of unhealed cancer.

Rod Parsley has had back surgery and his son Austin suffers from Asperger's syndrome, a form of autism.

R.W. Shambach has had quadruple bypass surgery.

William Branham died in 1965, at age 56, from complication following an automobile accident.

A.A. Allen died of in San Francisco in1970 of sclerosis of the liver (brought on by alcohol toxicity) and cardiac arrest.

Jack Coe died in 1956 of unhealed polio.

Robert Kelso Carter, the father and originator of the modern physical-healing-is-in-the-atonement-doctrine (c.1884 with the book The Atonement for Sin and Sickness), died of tuberculosis in 1898. To his credit, he recanted the atonement-for-sickness doctrine after seeing its lack of effectiveness and being unable to adequate answer its challenges in his book Faith Healing Reviewed After Twenty Years, returning to medical school, and setting up a medical practice in Baltimore in 1895. He wrote the song, “Standing On the Promises.” Here’s a bio of Carter-click here (http://healingandrevival.com/BioRKCarter.htm).

Not true.
Joyce has been healed. She does not have breast cancer. Yes, she was medically treated, but she's been healed. God heals through medicine as well. If not, why did He give us the brains and ability to become doctors and scientists?
However God chooses to heal, sobeit. Jesus used mud and spit. Today we have chemotherapy.
Can God heal miraculously? Yes, of course He can. He is God. He is I AM!
Does He always choose to do it that way? No.
Alot can be traced to doubt and unbelief. Let's say someone did receive their healing during a healing service. Well, what about the next day or so when they are walking around saying, I feel terrible. That pain is back again. I feel so terrible. Are we all so silly to think that the words of our mouth, our very own confessions, do not mean anything?? I'm not that silly, I know my very own words hinders what God wants to do in my life at times. I don't blame it on God and His inability. lol, that's nuts.

As far as the death of Paula White's son. It isn't in her blog, I saw nothing about it either. Not to say it isn't true, but I would think something like that would be broadcast. So, when I see it or hear it for myself, I'll believe it. But, thanks for passing on the info..I'll have my ears perked up!!!

[habeas]

I seem to recall on Larry King (which I watch about once a week or so) around the time the senate investigation was on blast that Paula was talking about her ill child. Some felt she was using it to deflect from her divorce issues because the child was really her ex-husband's adult child or something.

Perhaps that person passed away.

[habeas]

Here is a blog concerning the death of Randy and Paula White's daughter due to brain cancer on April 30, 2008.

http://www.christianvibes.com/MarylandgirlUSA/blog/Rev-Randy-White-and-wife-Rev-Paula-White-have-lost-their-daughter-to-brain-cancer,2261

[probinson]

Here is a blog concerning the death of Randy and Paula White's daughter due to brain cancer on April 30, 2008.

http://www.christianvibes.com/MarylandgirlUSA/blog/Rev-Randy-White-and-wife-Rev-Paula-White-have-lost-their-daughter-to-brain-cancer,2261
Thank you for finding that.

It was actually Paula White's step-daughter, Kristen Renee Hernandez-White.

[Alpine]

I actually agree with Pinetree's post, however, is this the time to bash a lady who really needs our prayers more than anything?

She must be in major pain right now with the loss of a child (has to be one of the worst feelings one can experience) and her divorce.

Hard for me to write that, cause I uh...don't really enjoy her much...but...can't we show a little restraint?

[probinson]

I actually agree with Pinetree's post, however, is this the time to bash a lady who really needs our prayers more than anything?
No, it's not.

It's time for the body of Christ to rise up in unity, put aside our doctrinal differences, and surround this family with our prayers.

[pinetree]

Thank you for finding that.

It was actually Paula White's step-daughter, Kristen Renee Hernandez-White.

hi Pete,when did you find that out?:)

[pinetree]

Forgive me everyone,I made a mistake,it was Paula Whites daughter,not her son.

pinetree.

[pinetree]

so you are not saved by Grace through faith?

Romans 10:8-10 has nothing to do with you??

Hmmm......

Yes,but the origination af all faith,come by grace..

meaning we can only have the measure of faith,that God gives,no more,no less..

[pinetree]

He died because he died. Everyone had an appointment with death (Heb 9:27). Some appointments arrive sooner than others.
well said.The plain and simple truth,that history shows us time and time again...

[pinetree]

Here is a blog concerning the death of Randy and Paula White's daughter due to brain cancer on April 30, 2008.

http://www.christianvibes.com/MarylandgirlUSA/blog/Rev-Randy-White-and-wife-Rev-Paula-White-have-lost-their-daughter-to-brain-cancer,2261
Thank you for the information.

[JimfromOhio]

No, it's not.

It's time for the body of Christ to rise up in unity, put aside our doctrinal differences, and surround this family with our prayers.
The concept of the unity of all things written in God's GRACE that God will reconcile all things (i.e. sufferings) unto Himself. I have learned to understand the true nature of the Christian life which is unpredictable and expanding called "sanctification" in HIS GRACE. Through out the history (in the past 2, 000 years), God uses people of limitless backgrounds who can minister “together” (unity) for Christ. God works all things together for His purposes in His grace. Faith is an important issue but GRACE is more important when it comes to faith.

[probinson]

The concept of the unity of all things written in God's GRACE that God will reconcile all things (i.e. sufferings) unto Himself. I have learned to understand the true nature of the Christian life which is unpredictable and expanding called "sanctification" in HIS GRACE. Through out the history (in the past 2, 000 years), God uses people of limitless backgrounds who can minister “together” (unity) for Christ. God works all things together for His purposes in His grace. Faith is an important issue but GRACE is more important when it comes to faith.
I don't know what your obsession with faith and grace is, but neither of them are worth a dime without Love.

Can you honestly read through this thread, which is nothing more than more of the same old argument, and say that this is how we should demonstrate Love to our sister in Christ who is most certainly hurting in the midst of this? Using her tragic circumstances to try and prove a point?

[Jimbeaux]

Kudos to Ms. White for even mentioning it. :thumbsup: Too many people (particularly evangelists) take such extremes theological faith-positions that when they are faced with an insurmountable crisis where their doctrine does not work for them will hide it from general view instead of honestly facing it and admitting that their extreme positions may need a little tweaking.

One evangelist I know was so adamant about healing and “perpetual health for believers” that when his eyes began to fail, around age 40, he wore contact lenses to hide the fact that his doctrine was less than correct. Another more prominent evangelists (whose name constantly crops up in this forum but who will remain nameless) who takes such an extreme position on faith that he has coined the phrase “The Force of Faith” and made such excessive (and crowd-pleasing) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=4&verse=3&version=50&context=verse) statements as …

"Well, they say, you need balance in this, get out there in that hyper-faith, that
name-it-and-claim-it, that blab-it-and-grab-it. YEAH!
We named it and claimed it and got it. Blabbed it and grabbed it
and still got it ! Hallelujah! And our bills are paid."


and

"You have the same creative faith and ability on the inside of you
that God used when he created the heavens and the earth."

and

"God cannot do anything for you apart or separate from faith,"

… that when he was diagnosed with a serious medical condition and was admitted to Oral Roberts “City of Faith” hospital in Tulsa registered under an assumed name and kept the matter a secret from his large following. Only a small private group of colleagues (to which I was privy) ever knew about it. Not all of them (I among them) looked favorably at what they called a cover up.

What do we say to such doctrinally excessive positions that would tempt us to hypocrisy rather than integrity?

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[pinetree]

I actually agree with Pinetree's post, however, is this the time to bash a lady who really needs our prayers more than anything?

She must be in major pain right now with the loss of a child (has to be one of the worst feelings one can experience) and her divorce.

Hard for me to write that, cause I uh...don't really enjoy her much...but...can't we show a little restraint?
ya know bro I really understand what you mean.

But what happens is,when these mega leaders,all over the place,are proof that the doctrine fails,us little people have to show the futility of it..

I dont mean it to sound so blunt,but when we look also at the other long list posted here in the thread,of other ill leaders of the doctrine,we must show that if the leaders of the doctrine cant do it,then something is really wrong..

Others might say,we should be good bereans.

pinetree

[pinetree]

I don't know what your obsession with faith and grace is, but neither of them are worth a dime without Love.

Can you honestly read through this thread, which is nothing more than more of the same old argument, and say that this is how we should demonstrate Love to our sister in Christ who is most certainly hurting in the midst of this? Using her tragic circumstances to try and prove a point?
Hi Pete,when did you know it was the daughter?

[pinetree]

Kudos to Ms. White for even mentioning it. :thumbsup: Too many people (particularly evangelists) take such extremes theological faith-positions that when they are faced with an insurmountable crisis where their doctrine does not work for them will hide it from general view instead of honestly facing it and admitting that their extreme positions may need a little tweaking.

One evangelist I know was so adamant about healing and “perpetual health for believers” that when his eyes began to fail, around age 40, he wore contact lenses to hide the fact that his doctrine was less than correct. Another more prominent evangelists (whose name constantly crops up in this forum but who will remain nameless) who takes such an extreme position on faith that he has coined the phrase “The Force of Faith” and made such excessive (and crowd-pleasing) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=4&verse=3&version=50&context=verse) statements as …

"Well, they say, you need balance in this, get out there in that hyper-faith, that
name-it-and-claim-it, that blab-it-and-grab-it. YEAH!
We named it and claimed it and got it. Blabbed it and grabbed it
and still got it ! Hallelujah! And our bills are paid."


and

"You have the same creative faith and ability on the inside of you
that God used when he created the heavens and the earth."

and

"God cannot do anything for you apart or separate from faith,"

… that when he was diagnosed with a serious medical condition and was admitted to Oral Roberts “City of Faith” hospital in Tulsa registered under an assumed name and kept the matter a secret from his large following. Only a small private group of colleagues (to which I was privy) ever knew about it. Not all of them (I among them) looked favorably at what they called a cover up.

What do we say to such doctrinally excessive positions that would tempt us to hypocrisy rather than integrity?

~Jim


If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

Amen,Paula came forth in an atmosphere where sickness is not tolerated,that was brave of her!

[probinson]

Hi Pete,when did you know it was the daughter?
habeas posted a link to a blog above. That is when I found out it was her step-daughter, because it said so at the link. I also then did some searchig of my own, and found the obit in the local newspaper, which is actually the same thing that the blog posting said. If you read it, it says this;
... She is survived by her husband, Wilfredo Hernandez Jr., son Robert Andrew Thomas, III "Drew," daughter, Emma Renee Hernandez; mother, and stepdad, Debra and Eric Cross; father and stepmom, the Rev. Randy White and Rev. Paula White, ...

[probinson]

Amen,Paula came forth in an atmosphere where sickness is not tolerated,that was brave of her!
It would probably be more accurate to say that Paula came from an atmosphere where sickness is not embraced and thought of as being from God.

[pinetree]

I don't know what your obsession with faith and grace is, but neither of them are worth a dime without Love.

Can you honestly read through this thread, which is nothing more than more of the same old argument, and say that this is how we should demonstrate Love to our sister in Christ who is most certainly hurting in the midst of this? Using her tragic circumstances to try and prove a point?
Pete,to be honest with ya ,this is a heated debate section of the forum,you have been sarcastic at times,but us men can play rough a little,like football,then just schrug it off.

but I think you are using this as an excuse to avoid the point,that you cant sperate grace from faith..

[JimfromOhio]

I don't know what your obsession with faith and grace is, but neither of them are worth a dime without Love.

Can you honestly read through this thread, which is nothing more than more of the same old argument, and say that this is how we should demonstrate Love to our sister in Christ who is most certainly hurting in the midst of this? Using her tragic circumstances to try and prove a point?

When something really happened within WOF's circle, there are times people (two sides) are wondering. Did WOF lectured Paula for her lack of faith as many did with many Christians?

That's the issue I am raising because there are those fail to use grace for unconditional love and grace to other people regardless of their level of "faith".

[JimfromOhio]

habeas posted a link to a blog above. That is when I found out it was her step-daughter, because it said so at the link. I also then did some searchig of my own, and found the obit in the local newspaper, which is actually the same thing that the blog posting said. If you read it, it says this;
... She is survived by her husband, Wilfredo Hernandez Jr., son Robert Andrew Thomas, III "Drew," daughter, Emma Renee Hernandez; mother, and stepdad, Debra and Eric Cross; father and stepmom, the Rev. Randy White and Rev. Paula White, ...


Still a family member no matter how you look at it. I have step-daughters and I treated them like my own daughter just as GOD treated all of us sinners as His own CHILDREN once we became a member of His Kingdom.

[probinson]

but I think you are using this as an excuse to avoid the point,that you cant sperate grace from faith..


This isn't a football game, pinetree. This is a real woman, your sister in Christ, that lost her step-daughter.

But, if you must continue to capitalize on her tragedy, if your doctrinal position is really that important, at least have the decency to go back and edit your thread title to be accurate.

It was Paula White's step-daughter that died.

[probinson]

Did WOF lectured Paula for her lack of faith as many did with many Christians?
First off, WOF isn't a person, and that would make it impossible for WOF to "lecture" anyone.

Second, if someone did lecture Paula for her lack of faith when she lost her step-daugther, then they are probably well-meaning, immature fools that don't know when to keep their mouth shut.

There is a time to speak and a time to be silent. No matter what the case may be, when someone is hurting, that is not the time for a bunch of "I-told-you-so's". It's a time for the Love of God on the inside of us to be there for one another, bearing one another's burdens in Love.

[Jimbeaux]

First off, WOF isn't a person, and that would make it impossible for WOF to "lecture" anyone.

Second, if someone did lecture Paula for her lack of faith when she lost her step-daugther, then they are probably well-meaning, immature fools that don't know when to keep their mouth shut.

There is a time to speak and a time to be silent. No matter what the case may be, when someone is hurting, that is not the time for a bunch of "I-told-you-so's". It's a time for the Love of God on the inside of us to be there for one another, bearing one another's burdens in Love.

Pete. You are beginning to impress me. :thumbsup:

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[pinetree]

This isn't a football game, pinetree. This is a real woman, your sister in Christ, that lost her step-daughter.

But, if you must continue to capitalize on her tragedy, if your doctrinal position is really that important, at least have the decency to go back and edit your thread title to be accurate.

It was Paula White's step-daughter that died.
The debate section is for football,you know what I mean.

But what happens is,when these mega leaders,all over the place,are proof that the doctrine fails,us little people have to show the futility of it..

I dont mean it to sound so blunt,but when we look also at the other long list posted here in the thread,of other ill leaders of the doctrine,we must show that if the leaders of the doctrine cant do it,then something is really wrong..

Others might say,we should be good bereans.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I don't know what your obsession with faith and grace is, but neither of them are worth a dime without Love.
Agreed, provided we define love as does Christ and 1 Cor 13, not twist the definition as a covert promotion of legalism (another topic for another thread, Moriah realises).

Can you honestly read through this thread, which is nothing more than more of the same old argument, and say that this is how we should demonstrate Love to our sister in Christ who is most certainly hurting in the midst of this? Using her tragic circumstances to try and prove a point?
While completely understanding your point and your concern here, Moriah also has to point out that likewise using her tragic circumstances to try and "guilt trip" a brother bes no better than the charge you lay at his feet. Would you honestly be even trying to do so did you not disagree with his views on the broader subject itself? (You don't need to answer that, it bes a question designed for self-reflection between yourself and God, not an indictment and no less than Moriah would confront itself with.) :hug:

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

The debate section is for football,you know what I mean.
Let's debate football and other spectator sports. Boring, stupid, turns people into idiots, and a colossal waste of time, energy, engagement and enthusiasm. If one enjoys a sport for playing that bes one thing -- team sports when played bes good rigorous exercise for the body and good practical experience in cooperation for the social aspect -- but never understood the fascination with slugging on the couch watching others work up the sweat while shouting, screaming, acting as if it has anything to do with oneself at all -- then the endless tiresome analysis for the next three days over every move as if any of it really matters and as if it will not all immediately be forgotten.

Never understood the fascination. Then again there bes much Moriah has never understood about your species (homo sapiens). ^_^

(*dons asbestos suit & braces self for flame throwers*)

[dkbwarrior]

The debate section is for football,you know what I mean.

But what happens is,when these mega leaders,all over the place,are proof that the doctrine fails,us little people have to show the futility of it..

I dont mean it to sound so blunt,but when we look also at the other long list posted here in the thread,of other ill leaders of the doctrine,we must show that if the leaders of the doctrine cant do it,then something is really wrong..

Others might say,we should be good bereans.

Actually, this whole thread is in poor taste. These are the same tactics used by unbelievers who paint the church as ineffective hypocritical fools because of the moral failings of its leaders.

The fact that we christians fail in many things is not proof of anything but a failure. It doesn't make God a liar.

Jimmy Swaggart got caught with a prostitute. Does that mean that Pentecostals shouldn't preach against sin? Or that God doesn't really give his children power to overcome sin?

Paula Whites step daughter died. Does that mean God doesn't give us power over sickness?

What a simple and human based logic. Not to mention false.

Peace...

[dkbwarrior]

Let's debate football and other spectator sports. Boring, stupid, turns people into idiots, and a colossal waste of time, energy, engagement and enthusiasm. If one enjoys a sport for playing that bes one thing -- team sports when played bes good rigorous exercise for the body and good practical experience in cooperation for the social aspect -- but never understood the fascination with slugging on the couch watching others work up the sweat. Then again there bes much Moriah has never understood about your species (homo sapiens). ^_^

(*dons asbestos suit & braces self for flame throwers*)

You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile...

Peace...

[probinson]

Would you honestly be even trying to do so did you not disagree with his views on the broader subject itself? (You don't need to answer that, it bes a question designed for self-reflection between yourself and God, not an indictment and no less than Moriah would confront itself with.) :hug:
I'll gladly answer that, because it's already happened.

About a year ago, one of my fellow WoF members posted a tragic situation and tried to capitalize on those circumstances to further prove the WOF doctrine, and I responded the same way I am responding here.

It's no secret to anyone who posts here that I have no problem with debate, but this is not the time to say "See there, it doesn't work!" There are at least 20 other threads where that is going on and I'm just happily debating along.

But we sometimes get so entangled in our doctrinal arguments that we fail to understand that this is not a game. It's not just a bunch of words on a screen. It's a real-life woman who is hurting.

It's not a "guilt-trip". It's a wake-up call. Our doctrinal differences aren't nearly as important as standing with our sister, no matter what she may believe.

[pinetree]

Agreed, provided we define love as does Christ and 1 Cor 13, not twist the definition as a covert promotion of legalism (another topic for another thread, Moriah realises).


While completely understanding your point and your concern here, Moriah also has to point out that likewise using her tragic circumstances to try and "guilt trip" a brother bes no better than the charge you lay at his feet. Would you honestly be even trying to do so did you not disagree with his views on the broader subject itself? (You don't need to answer that, it bes a question designed for self-reflection between yourself and God, not an indictment and no less than Moriah would confront itself with.) :hug:
Thanks Moriah,I did not want to say that but glad you did! I did tell pete,to slow down on me..the truth would come out,and it did.What is the difference anyway,son or daughter...
it was a mistake on my part,but does not change the point of the op!

[probinson]

Thanks Moriah,I did not want to say that but glad you did! I did tell pete,to slow down on me..the truth would come out,and it did.What is the difference anyway,son or daughter...
pinetree, listen to yourself...

What's the difference? Really? This is a woman's step-daughter, not a pawn in a game for you to earn points.

You don't even care. "What is the difference anyway..." Son, daughter, it doesn't matter. As long as you prove your point, you're cool.

Sad.

[pinetree]

Actually, this whole thread is in poor taste. These are the same tactics used by unbelievers who paint the church as ineffective hypocritical fools because of the moral failings of its leaders.

The fact that we christians fail in many things is not proof of anything but a failure. It doesn't make God a liar.

Jimmy Swaggart got caught with a prostitute. Does that mean that Pentecostals shouldn't preach against sin? Or that God doesn't really give his children power to overcome sin?

Paula Whites step daughter died. Does that mean God doesn't give us power over sickness?

What a simple and human based logic. Not to mention false.

Peace...
good morning..

Again,you are using a fall into sin of swaggart,to compare your point.

We are talking about the leaders who had no control over their illness,2 totally different things.

No comparrison.!

[pinetree]

pinetree, listen to yourself...

What's the difference? Really? This is a woman's step-daughter, not a pawn in a game for you to earn points.

You don't even care. "What is the difference anyway..." Son, daughter, it doesn't matter. As long as you prove your point, you're cool.

Sad.
sounds like you are doing what you accuse me of..:scratch::o

[JimfromOhio]

Pete. You are beginning to impress me. :thumbsup:

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain




You think he is catching on?

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

These are the same tactics used by unbelievers who paint the church as ineffective hypocritical fools because of the moral failings of its leaders.

The fact that we christians fail in many things is not proof of anything but a failure. It doesn't make God a liar.

No, it does not make God a liar. But while Moriah totally GETS your point here (and agrees with the principle behind it even if questioning its application here) there bes a MAJOR difference between human frailty and failings versus just plain being pigheadedly, stiffnecked stubborn and WRONG, imposing that onto OTHER people in ways that HURT them, and then running under the shadow of the Cross to whitewash oneself of any responsibility and invoking OTHERS' "moral obligations" (to forbear, forgive, etc.) to avoid FACING THE FREAKING MUSIC when the one seeking to avoid it wrote the sorry symphony and hired the band to play it screamingly loud for years to bleed the ears of others. :mad:

Palming that off as "just human frailty & failing" makes a MOCKERY of genuine stumbling through weakness as well as everything we (Christians) preach and teach before a world watching to see whether we really have the "right stuff" and the "real deal" we CLAIMS to have.

These rugged individualist "pull self up by own moral bootstraps" types who disparage the afflicted and struggling turn the Gospel of Christ into a wretched club beating others over the head for not being perfect. They make the power of God out to be some twisted religious form of Dumbo's magick feather, a cure containing the disease itself. By refusing deliberately to listen to the cries of the oppressed and afflicted, they have painted themselves into a corner where establishing themselves and defending the "rightness" of their views takes precedence over Christ and compassion for others. They render themselves thus deserving of whatever it takes to wake them up to the harm they bes perpetrating not just upon the Body of Christ, crippling and oppressing It from within, but upon the watching world in desperate need of a genuine GOSPEL (GOOD news) of GRACE, MERCY, and COMPASSION not to mention GOD'S power and consistency of character (He bes Himself NO MATTER WHAT WE DO) rather than a tainted mixture of truth and lies which sours the belly and builds private mental prisons for everyone who imbibes it.

Moriah pities them as people for what that will entail, but has no sympathy for the lies from the pit of hell they peddle, lies designer-made to seduce, if possible, the very elect: the ones most concerned with holiness, obedience, and pleasing God.

[Alpine]

As I said, Agree with Pinetree's postion, BUT I honestly think the topic is kind of...tasteless since it's so close.

What if we changed the beginning to this: Why did "faith teacher" Larry Donka's daughter just die in one of the twin towers on 9-1-1?


Would anyone find that kind of offensive?

[probinson]

sounds like you are doing what you accuse me of..:scratch::o
If you say so...

Really, what I'm trying to do (and some others in this thread) is get you to understand that Paula White is your sister in Christ, and more than anything right now, she needs your prayers, not your "I-told-you-so's".

[dkbwarrior]

good morning..

Again,you are using a fall into sin of swaggart,to compare your point.

We are talking about the leaders who had no control over their illness,2 totally different things.

No comparrison.!

I don't see how the logic does not apply.

You are inferring that because Paulas step-daughter died, this proves that the WOF doctrine that believes God wills for us to be healed is then wrong.

One can use the same logic to say that because Jimmy Swaggart was caught with a prostitute that this proves that the Pentecostal doctrine that believes God wills for us to be free from sin is then wrong.

The problem with your argument is that it assumes that all believers are fully mature and perfected. Even Paul himself said that he considered not himself to have aprehended. If a failure to apprehend proves the will of God, then we are all in trouble.

Your logic here is confused, and is nothing but a pile of vain imaginations exalting themselves against the knowledge of Christ. And it smells like manure to me. ;)

Peace...

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

sounds like you are doing what you accuse me of..:scratch::o
According to Romans 2:1, that bes the lot of all of us, of any one of us, whenever we resort to judgments and accusations:

Romans 2:1 -- Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

The "whosoever" means that at any given time, any one of us can be in that role, by judging another.

[JimfromOhio]

According to Romans 2:1, that bes the lot of all of us, of any one of us, whenever we resort to judgments and accusations:

Romans 2:1 -- Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

The "whosoever" means that at any given time, any one of us can be in that role, by judging another.

Actually, what we are doing in this thread as well as other threads. Discernment is to biblically sort out between right and wrong and between truth and error. The basic Greek root for discern, diakrino, means "to judge through, to see through to the truth, to truly evaluate something."

We are looking at doctrines and examining them. Truth comes through practicing the discipline of careful reading of the Bible, seeking to find the author's intended meaning (Ephesians 3:4) and its implications for the issues we are facing today. The role of the Holy Spirit is not to add anything to the text but to make the readers' heart humble so that we will welcome and embrace the truth and act upon it (1 Corinthians 2:14).

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

One can use the same logic to say that [incident] proves that the Pentecostal doctrine that believes God wills for all to not sin is then wrong.
Who says it cannot be? When did "proving Pentecostal doctrine wrong" become the measure for establishing whether a concept could be viable or not? Have we scrapped Christ, Holy Spirit, and the written Word of Scripture in favor of erecting stone temples where we should humbly continue packing tents and moving toward Kingdom Come, instead? After all, DKB, you yourself pointed out:

The problem with your argument is that it assumes that all believers are fully mature and perfected. Even Paul himself said that he considered not himself to have aprehended. If a failure to apprehend proves the will of God, then we are all in trouble.Likewise, "Pentecostal doctrine" bes MAN MADE. It bes not Christ, not the Holy Spirit, and not the written Word of Scripture, but rather a conglomerate of humanly-filtered perceptions and interpretations of these. AS SUCH it bes subject to the SAME consideration in what Moriah quotes above from you: namely, that it bes not fully mature nor perfect, and therefore subject to growth and change -- or ought to be -- for that bes the definition of "living", and the name given to finite, imperfect, incomplete, immature things that fail to grow or to change bes .... DEAD.

Your logic here is confused, and is nothing but a pile of vain imaginations exalting themselves against the knowledge of Christ.How do you know this statement does not fall into that category itself though -- meaning a vain imagination exalting itself against the knowledge of Christ? After all, you have just "logically" equated this knowledge with some lesser, imperfect, incomplete, immature human form thereof called "Pentecostal doctrine". With all due respect Friend, Moriah would call that "confused" too. ;)

And it smells like manure to me. ;)Well HAY now ... :D ... it can be argued that manure, while stinky, nevertheless fertilizes soil and makes it capable of germinating life from seed .... ^_^

Pax!

[pinetree]

pinetree, listen to yourself...

What's the difference? Really? This is a woman's step-daughter, not a pawn in a game for you to earn points.

You don't even care. "What is the difference anyway..." Son, daughter, it doesn't matter. As long as you prove your point, you're cool.

Sad.
ok,final statement on this particular part.

when I said what is the diiference,i meant,that if it is the son or daughter,it does not change the point of the op.

[probinson]

OK, pinetree.

In any event, I think the entire thread is in horribly bad taste, and this is the first thread ever in my almost 3 years of membership that I am officially unsubscribing from.

[dkbwarrior]

No, it does not make God a liar. But while Moriah totally GE