Is it ALWAYS God's will to heal? Can you prove it?

[Jimbeaux]

It is a Pentecostal (and offshoots) mantra that “healing is God’s will” and by that they mean in every instance. This belief is peculiar to P/C and stems from an acceptance that, since (they believe) physical healing is in the Atonement just as is the redemption from sin, then God must feel toward sickness and healing as He does toward sin and forgiveness. Since it is always God’s will to forgive, ergo it must also always be God’s will to heal. Sickness is equated with sin and always seen as a menace. And they have scripture to support this view.

But, if you do not accept the doctrine that physical healing is included in the atonement of Christ for sin then you will take a different view of sickness. It is not the menace to mankind that sin is. Sickness, though often painful, can actually work good in a person and God may, indeed, use an illness to discipline, train or modify the behavior of a Christian. Just as with those who believe otherwise, this group also has scripture to support their view.

Since I fall into the latter category, I would like to hear from those who disagree and believe that it is always God’s will to heal and to show me/us from scripture where this is unambiguously stated and why you believe it is always God’s will to heal the sick.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[victoryword]

Since I fall into the latter category, I would like to hear from those who disagree and believe that it is always God’s will to heal and to show me/us from scripture where this is unambiguously stated and why you believe it is always God’s will to heal the sick.


Since, as I stated in another thread, the Word of God reveals the will of God, then James 5:14, 15 should be sufficient evidence that it is God's will to heal. Now unless you are one who believes that God has some "secret mysterious will" that trumps His revealed will, then you would have to acept the teaching of James as valid proof that it is God's general will to heal.

Furthermore, there is no explicit reference within the Holy writ, which revelas God's general will, which says that there is ever a time in which it is NOT God's will to heal. Oh, some have pointed to Paul's thorn in the flesh as some example of God supposedly denying healing, but even reformers such as Martin Luther and the guy I disagree with most, John Calvin rejected this spurious understanding of that passage. You might also want to read chpter one of Ken Blue's book, "The Authority to Heal." This Vineyard pastor has a good refuation of that "Paul's Thorn" fallacy."

However, even if Paul's thorn were a sickness and healing was denied him, this is the only example out of thousands in the Bible which shows people being healed upon request along with numerous examples of stating in unequivocal terms that it is His general will to heal (Ex. 15:26; 23:23-25; Deut. 7:15; Psalm 103:1-5; James 5:14-16).

God's Word is the revelation of His general will, and He reveals that His will is healing in the flesh:

My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh (Prov. 4:20-22).

There is no way someone can interpret that passage to say that it is teaching "spiritual healing." This is clearly a passage that teaches adherence to the Word of God results in health to the FLESH, or to the BODY. Since God's Word reveals God's will, and since adherence to the Word results in health to all our flesh, then healing has to be the will of God.

I refuse to fuss over the redemptive work of my Lord Jesus. All I know is that the Bible says that sickness is a CURSE, and that part of the redemptive package of my Lord is redemption from that curse (see Gal. 3:13). BUt too many people fanagle over whether or not the "atonement" covers freedom from sickness along with salvation of the soul. I could do a word study on the word "sozo" and "soteria" and prove that Jesus atonement does indeed cover this, but why waste the time here? The Word of God has enough promises demonstrating God's will to heal to keep me from having to debate this from the "atonement" perspective.

[LeadWorship]

What he said.

Nice post Victoryword

I could do a word study on the word "sozo" and "soteria" and prove that Jesus atonement does indeed cover this, but why waste the time here?


Well, it wouldn't be the first. I have done it, and I believe Churchlady and others have as well. It simply went "unnoticed" and fell off the boards, with the typical reply "You can't pick and choose what definition you want to fit what you mean" or something of that sort.

[victoryword]

What he said.

Nice post Victoryword




Well, it wouldn't be the first. I have done it, and I believe Churchlady and others have as well. It simply went "unnoticed" and fell off the boards, with the typical reply "You can't pick and choose what definition you want to fit what you mean" or something of that sort.

Thanks for the kind words LW. Many of you have done a yeoman's job here of refuting the nonsense espused on these forums. Shame that, as usual, it falls on deaf ears.

[pinetree]

Since, as I stated in another thread, the Word of God reveals the will of God, then James 5:14, 15 should be sufficient evidence that it is God's will to heal. Now unless you are one who believes that God has some "secret mysterious will" that trumps His revealed will, then you would have to acept the teaching of James as valid proof that it is God's general will to heal.

Furthermore, there is no explicit reference within the Holy writ, which revelas God's general will, which says that there is ever a time in which it is NOT God's will to heal. Oh, some have pointed to Paul's thorn in the flesh as some example of God supposedly denying healing, but even reformers such as Martin Luther and the guy I disagree with most, John Calvin rejected this spurious understanding of that passage. You might also want to read chpter one of Ken Blue's book, "The Authority to Heal." This Vineyard pastor has a good refuation of that "Paul's Thorn" fallacy."

However, even if Paul's thorn were a sickness and healing was denied him, this is the only example out of thousands in the Bible which shows people being healed upon request along with numerous examples of stating in unequivocal terms that it is His general will to heal (Ex. 15:26; 23:23-25; Deut. 7:15; Psalm 103:1-5; James 5:14-16).

God's Word is the revelation of His general will, and He reveals that His will is healing in the flesh:
My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh (Prov. 4:20-22).
There is no way someone can interpret that passage to say that it is teaching "spiritual healing." This is clearly a passage that teaches adherence to the Word of God results in health to the FLESH, or to the BODY. Since God's Word reveals God's will, and since adherence to the Word results in health to all our flesh, then healing has to be the will of God.

I refuse to fuss over the redemptive work of my Lord Jesus. All I know is that the Bible says that sickness is a CURSE, and that part of the redemptive package of my Lord is redemption from that curse (see Gal. 3:13). BUt too many people fanagle over whether or not the "atonement" covers freedom from sickness along with salvation of the soul. I could do a word study on the word "sozo" and "soteria" and prove that Jesus atonement does indeed cover this, but why waste the time here? The Word of God has enough promises demonstrating God's will to heal to keep me from having to debate this from the "atonement" perspective.
Why did "faith teacher" Paula Whites son just die of a disease?

Why didn't kenny copeland go heal him?

You are in a history denial of 2000 years, of alot christians across the planet not being healed!

There are plenty more examples of other "faith teachers" who have physical issues too!


Our prayers go out to her,and her family.

[Jimbeaux]

Since, as I stated in another thread, the Word of God reveals the will of God, then James 5:14, 15 should be sufficient evidence that it is God's will to heal. Now unless you are one who believes that God has some "secret mysterious will" that trumps His revealed will, then you would have to acept the teaching of James as valid proof that it is God's general will to heal.

Furthermore, there is no explicit reference within the Holy writ, which revelas God's general will, which says that there is ever a time in which it is NOT God's will to heal. Oh, some have pointed to Paul's thorn in the flesh as some example of God supposedly denying healing, but even reformers such as Martin Luther and the guy I disagree with most, John Calvin rejected this spurious understanding of that passage. You might also want to read chpter one of Ken Blue's book, "The Authority to Heal." This Vineyard pastor has a good refuation of that "Paul's Thorn" fallacy."

However, even if Paul's thorn were a sickness and healing was denied him, this is the only example out of thousands in the Bible which shows people being healed upon request along with numerous examples of stating in unequivocal terms that it is His general will to heal (Ex. 15:26; 23:23-25; Deut. 7:15; Psalm 103:1-5; James 5:14-16).

God's Word is the revelation of His general will, and He reveals that His will is healing in the flesh:
My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh (Prov. 4:20-22).
There is no way someone can interpret that passage to say that it is teaching "spiritual healing." This is clearly a passage that teaches adherence to the Word of God results in health to the FLESH, or to the BODY. Since God's Word reveals God's will, and since adherence to the Word results in health to all our flesh, then healing has to be the will of God.

I refuse to fuss over the redemptive work of my Lord Jesus. All I know is that the Bible says that sickness is a CURSE, and that part of the redemptive package of my Lord is redemption from that curse (see Gal. 3:13). BUt too many people fanagle over whether or not the "atonement" covers freedom from sickness along with salvation of the soul. I could do a word study on the word "sozo" and "soteria" and prove that Jesus atonement does indeed cover this, but why waste the time here? The Word of God has enough promises demonstrating God's will to heal to keep me from having to debate this from the "atonement" perspective.

To accept your conclusions I/we are going to have to accept your premise, VW. And I do not. I would much prefer a clear statement that says something close to it is always God’s will to heal without having to make leaps of logic, without having to thread scriptures or add a particular small group’s interpretations of scripture. Surely, if a doctrine is true, there is a clear statement to that effect.
As for the James 5.14-15, I have seen this work too many times to ever doubt it is true but I have also seen times when it didn’t work. Why? Was it that one of us didn’t have faith when we prayed? If so, which one and how do we remedy it? Did we use the wrong kind of oil (Havoline instead of Quaker State)? Was one of the group not really an elder? Is there hidden unforgiven sin? In whom? These are questions most often without answers and, once again, I appeal to 1 John 5.14.15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205.14-15;&version=50;) and realize that my/our “prayer” may not be “according to His will.” Maybe God has something else in mind. Maybe God knows best. Maybe God lives outside our theology and preconception of Him?
As for the “sozo” part—since, apparently, a known language fails to communicate the “truth” (as some want it), I guess we have to go to a dead foreign language, which no one in this forum knows, in order to support a point of view. Since I (and, my guess is, you) cannot read a single sentence in Greek, much less understand all its nuances and idioms, can’t we just stick to a language we all can read?

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Jimbeaux]

Why did "faith teacher" Paula Whites son just die of a disease?

Why didn't kenny copeland go heal her?

You are in a history denial of 2000 years, of alot christians across the planet not being healed!

There are plenty more examples of other "faith teachers" who have physical issues too!

snap out of it...

Wow, PT, my ears are ringing so I turned the volume down a little. Hope you don’t mind.

But you are right, everyone who claims it is God’s will to heal believers at all times and in every situation (except, I suppose, where there is a lack of what they call “faith”) also must admit that every one of them are either faithless or else they are not covered in the atonement of Christ because they, well, get sick. Even their most prominent faith teachers do …
Oral Roberts wears a pacemaker.

Kenneth Hagin (who has made the most outlandish statements regarding guaranteed healing for believers) died unhealed Sept.19,. 2003 in the cardiac intensive care unit of a Tulsa hospital after suffering a heart attack. Hagin’s sister had previously died unhealed of cancer.
Buddy Harrison Hagin’s son-in-law and founder of Harrison House Publishing, the largest disseminator of the PHIA doctrine, died of unhealed cancer in December 1999.

E.W. Kenyon died in 1948 while in a unhealed comatose cancerous state.

Charles Capps wife, Beverly, is under constant psychiatric care and uses meds to maintain unhealed emotional balance.

Kathryn Kuhlman died of unhealed heart failure in 1976 after suffering from a heart condition for twenty years.

Joyce Meyers has been medically treated for unhealed breast cancer.

John Osteen, although his wife Dodie was miraculously healed of liver cancer in the mid-1980s, himself died in a hospital of an unhealed heart condition. Osteen had suffered numerous unhealed medical problems.

Frederick Price’s wife, Betty, has undergone chemotherapy.

T.L. Osborne’s wife, Daisy, died in 1995 of unhealed cancer.

Rod Parsley has had back surgery and his son Austin suffers from Asperger's syndrome, a form of autism.

R.W. Shambach has had quadruple bypass surgery.

William Branham died in 1965, at age 56, from complication following an automobile accident.

A.A. Allen died of in San Francisco in1970 of sclerosis of the liver (brought on by alcohol toxicity) and cardiac arrest.

Jack Coe died in 1956 of unhealed polio.

Robert Kelso Carter, the father and originator of the modern physical-healing-is-in-the-atonement-doctrine (c.1884 with the book The Atonement for Sin and Sickness), died of tuberculosis in 1898. To his credit, he recanted the atonement-for-sickness doctrine after seeing its lack of effectiveness and being unable to adequate answer its challenges in his book Faith Healing Reviewed After Twenty Years, returning to medical school, and setting up a medical practice in Baltimore in 1895. He wrote the song, “Standing On the Promises.” Here’s a bio of Carter-click here (http://healingandrevival.com/BioRKCarter.htm).
While I sympathize with their illnesses I can’t help but wonder if they are ignorantly or willfully blind to the gaping holes in their theology or why what they believe does not work for them any more than for anyone else. I do not sympathize with with willful blind leasders of the blind.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[pinetree]

Wow, PT, my ears are ringing so I turned the volume down a little. Hope you don’t mind.

But you are right, everyone who claims it is God’s will to heal believers at all times and in every situation (except, I suppose, where there is a lack of what they call “faith”) also must admit that every one of them are either faithless or else they are not covered in the atonement of Christ because they, well, get sick. Even their most prominent faith teachers do …
Oral Roberts wears a pacemaker.

Kenneth Hagin (who has made the most outlandish statements regarding guaranteed healing for believers) died Sept.19,. 2003 in the cardiac intensive care unit of a Tulsa hospital after suffering a heart attack. Hagin’s sister had previously died unhealed of cancer.
Buddy Harrison Hagin’s son-in-law and founder of Harrison House Publishing, the largest disseminator of the PHIA doctrine, died of unhealed cancer in December 1999.
E.W. Kenyon died in 1948 while in a unhealed comatose cancerous state.
Charles Capps wife, Beverly, is under constant psychiatric care and uses meds to maintain unhealed emotional balance.
Kathryn Kuhlman died of unhealed heart failure in 1976 after suffering from a heart condition for twenty years.
Joyce Meyers has been medically treated for unhealed breast cancer.
John Osteen, although his wife Dodie was miraculously healed of liver cancer in the mid-1980s, himself died in a hospital of an unhealed heart condition. Osteen had suffered numerous unhealed medical problems.
Frederick Price’s wife, Betty, has undergone chemotherapy.
T.L. Osborne’s wife, Daisy, died in 1995 of unhealed cancer.
Rod Parsley has had back surgery and his son Austin suffers from Asperger's syndrome, form of autism.
R.W. Shambach has had quadruple bypass surgery.
William Branham died in 1965, at age 56, from complication following an automobile accident.
A.A. Allen died of in San Francisco in1970 of sclerosis of the liver (brought on by alcohol toxicity) and cardiac arrest.
Jack Coe died in 1956 of unhealed polio.
Robert Kelso Carter, the father and originator of the modern physical-healing-is-in-the-atonement-doctrine (c.1884 with the book The Atonement for Sin and Sickness), died of tuberculosis in 1998. To his credit, he recanted the atonement-for-sickness doctrine after seeing its lack of effectiveness and being unable to adequate answer its challenges in his book Faith Healing Reviewed After Twenty Years, returning to medical school, and setting up a medical practice in Baltimore in 1895. He wrote the song, “Standing On the Promises.” Here’s a bio of Carter-click here (http://healingandrevival.com/BioRKCarter.htm).
While I sympathize with their illnesses I can’t help but wonder if they are ignorantly or willfully blind to the gaping holes in their theology or why what they believe does not work for them any more than for anyone else.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.



~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

thank you ~Jim..i feel better now.:);)

[GreatistheLord]

Why did "faith teacher" Paula Whites son just die of a disease?

Why didn't kenny copeland go heal him?

You are in a history denial of 2000 years, of alot christians across the planet not being healed!

There are plenty more examples of other "faith teachers" who have physical issues too!


Our prayers go out to her,and her family.

Why make a doctrine out of experience?

You'd be the first to label me as a heretic if I told you to worship me as God Almighty, yet you want to give personal experience a higher authority than the Word of God ??????

We can't just ignore passages of the Bible that don't seem to line up in our lives.

[pinetree]

Why make a doctrine out of experience?

You'd be the first to label me as a heretic if I told you to worship me as God Almighty, yet you want to give personal experience a higher authority than the Word of God ??????

good morning.

For the record,most scripture was written out of experience.
The gospel was given to Paul as a revelation,(Galations1) which is an experience for sure!

Apparently after 2000 years of unhealed saints,and all the above issues with "faith teachers" sicknesses and deaths,we have an interpretation issue,dont we?

Gods word is true,but how is it interpreted.?

We always hear about testing things,and does something bear fruit etc..

I think the failures listed test the doctrine quite well.:)

[Jimbeaux]

Why make a doctrine out of experience?

You'd be the first to label me as a heretic if I told you to worship me as God Almighty, yet you want to give personal experience a higher authority than the Word of God ??????

We can't just ignore passages of the Bible that don't seem to line up in our lives.

Experience confirms doctrine. Why else would Jesus say that signs would “confirm” the word we proclaim?

The Word works. If it don’t work, it ain’t the Word—it’s just a theory and a bad one, at that, because it does not work.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[map4]

As for the James 5.14-15, I have seen this work too many times to ever doubt it is true but I have also seen times when it didn’t work. Why? Was it that one of us didn’t have faith when we prayed? If so, which one and how do we remedy it? Did we use the wrong kind of oil (Havoline instead of Quaker State)? Was one of the group not really an elder? Is there hidden unforgiven sin? In whom? These are questions most often without answers and, once again, I appeal to 1 John 5.14.15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205.14-15;&version=50;) and realize that my/our “prayer” may not be “according to His will.” Maybe God has something else in mind. Maybe God knows best. Maybe God lives outside our theology and preconception of Him?

Jim,
I have read what you wrote here a couple of times and I have a question...sincerely...not for "debate purposes"...
You said you have seen it work too many times to ever doubt that it is true...then turn right around and say it hasn't worked. My first thought was, "well, is it true or not?" Then you go on to ask the "why" questions.
My question to you is...do you think this particular verse is "conditional"? If the conditions are not met, the verse won't "work"?
I don't know if this is a good comparison, but it is the thought that came to me: We know it is God's will that all be saved, that none should perish,...but not all are saved. Even some who will say "Lord, Lord", He will say He never knew them. So, even salvation is "conditional", right? If the right conditions are not met, one will not have true salvation. Even though we know it is God's will that all be saved.
Do you think there is any comparison between the two? That maybe conditions DO have to be met in those verses in James?
I am not asking this to put guilt on anyone for not having enough faith, etc.
Just wondering if that is in fact why it doesn't work sometimes?

Also, in the times you say it didn't work, did you notice anything different when praying for those people than the times it did work?

[GreatistheLord]

Experience confirms doctrine. Why else would Jesus say that signs would “confirm” the word we proclaim?

The Word works. If it don’t work, it ain’t the Word—it’s just a theory and a bad one, at that, because it does not work.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



Experience should confirm doctrine, but you are on dangerous ground when you can change theology based on personal experience.

Let me talk to a muslim about his experience, and see what my theology is after that!

[GreatistheLord]

Experience confirms doctrine. Why else would Jesus say that signs would “confirm” the word we proclaim?

The Word works. If it don’t work, it ain’t the Word—it’s just a theory and a bad one, at that, because it does not work.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



Jesus is talking about signs following preaching of the gospel.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=99MA8S9bXVg&feature=related

[pinetree]

Jim,
I have read what you wrote here a couple of times and I have a question...sincerely...not for "debate purposes"...
You said you have seen it work too many times to ever doubt that it is true...then turn right around and say it hasn't worked. My first thought was, "well, is it true or not?" Then you go on to ask the "why" questions.
My question to you is...do you think this particular verse is "conditional"? If the conditions are not met, the verse won't "work"?
I don't know if this is a good comparison, but it is the thought that came to me: We know it is God's will that all be saved, that none should perish,...but not all are saved. Even some who will say "Lord, Lord", He will say He never knew them. So, even salvation is "conditional", right? If the right conditions are not met, one will not have true salvation. Even though we know it is God's will that all be saved.
Do you think there is any comparison between the two? That maybe conditions DO have to be met in those verses in James?
I am not asking this to put guilt on anyone for not having enough faith, etc.
Just wondering if that is in fact why it doesn't work sometimes?

Also, in the times you say it didn't work, did you notice anything different when praying for those people than the times it did work?
hi map,if I may bud in.

The words He speaks are Spirit and life.
I think that we have to hear what God says to us subjectly.
Then it is mine. I think your question raises a good point,

I see that everyone who wrote scripture,wrote out of their personal revelation,and experiences.So how can we now,subjectify all things,all the time?

The wofers have their verses,thats fair to say..
But it is when we make a formula out of the scriptures,there in lies the problem.

Some verses can be quoted for all,like our new covenant standing,what Christ did on the cross,etc.

Example... matt 10:8,Jesus commisioned them,go raise the dead..try going into a funeral hall..WITHOUT having a living word,and try to raise that person.

But if faith is an action of the Spirit,to heal or do whatever..

Can we quote and control that action,and dictate where and where the power goes to and fro? And is it Gods timing,do we really know?

History shows we dont..

as always,nice chating,iron sharpens iron.

[he4rty]

It is a Pentecostal (and offshoots) mantra that “healing is God’s will” and by that they mean in every instance. This belief is peculiar to P/C and stems from an acceptance that, since (they believe) physical healing is in the Atonement just as is the redemption from sin, then God must feel toward sickness and healing as He does toward sin and forgiveness. Since it is always God’s will to forgive, ergo it must also always be God’s will to heal. Sickness is equated with sin and always seen as a menace. And they have scripture to support this view.

But, if you do not accept the doctrine that physical healing is included in the atonement of Christ for sin then you will take a different view of sickness. It is not the menace to mankind that sin is. Sickness, though often painful, can actually work good in a person and God may, indeed, use an illness to discipline, train or modify the behavior of a Christian. Just as with those who believe otherwise, this group also has scripture to support their view.

Since I fall into the latter category, I would like to hear from those who disagree and believe that it is always God’s will to heal and to show me/us from scripture where this is unambiguously stated and why you believe it is always God’s will to heal the sick.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain


Just to pick up on the bolded part, once I've learnt my lesson will God leave me sick or will God heal me as he did for the Israelites....

Numbers 21:7-9 (New International Version)

7 The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people.
8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.


So the above argument seems illogical to me, If God was to allow a sickness to teach,train or discipline then surely such a God would heal me once my lesson is learned.
So to me it does say that Gods will is to heal and he will but we must be in his will.

[victoryword]

Why did "faith teacher" Paula Whites son just die of a disease?

Why didn't kenny copeland go heal him?

You are in a history denial of 2000 years, of alot christians across the planet not being healed!

There are plenty more examples of other "faith teachers" who have physical issues too!


Our prayers go out to her,and her family.

First of all, "Who cares?"

If salvation is for all then why are so many dying and going to hell? Huh? Unless you are a Calvinist or a universalist, you would have a hard time answering that question. Does God predestine some to be lost in spite of His words in 1 Tim. 2:4 and 2 Pet. 3:9 stating His will for everyone's salvation? Does he eventually save all in the end as the universalist claims (while ignoring John 3:18, Rev. 20-21 and numerous other passages that teach that some will suffer eternal damnation)?

So if experience vice the word is the determination of doctrine then I should either become a Calvinist or a universalist. Are you one of these two pine tree?

Furthermore, "Kenny Copeland" as you refer to him is no ones healer. Jesus is the healer. If anyone looked to Copeland, Hagin et. al to be their healer then they failed miserably. The Bible says in James 5 that "the Lord will raise him up."

So Pinetree, I don't give a flip who is sick and who is not, which "faith teacher" died of sickness and which one did not. If you and your side are so Scripturally bankrupt that you cannot center these doctrinal debates on Scripture alone, then I pity you.

We were asked to prove that doctrine. I thought SCRIPTURE was sufficient proof. But I suppose when one cannot rebut the Scripture then they resort to these constant red herrings and strawmen as if someone's experience is a sound rebuttal of God's Word. Your side of this debate is pitiful. You guys really disgust me sometimes.

[Jimbeaux]

Just to pick up on the bolded part, once I've learnt my lesson will God leave me sick or will God heal me as he did for the Israelites....

*****

I do not know what God will do about your sickness. That is strictly God’s call and He is under no obligation to tell me, a third party, what He is doing in the life of someone else. But if God is teaching you something I am quite sure He knows how to do it and what He does after that is still His call, not ours.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[BenAdam]

First of all, "Who cares?"

If salvation is for all then why are so many dying and going to hell? Huh? Unless you are a Calvinist or a universalist, you would have a hard time answering that question. Does God predestine some to be lost in spite of His words in 1 Tim. 2:4 and 2 Pet. 3:9 stating His will for everyone's salvation? Does he eventually save all in the end as the universalist claims (while ignoring John 3:18, Rev. 20-21 and numerous other passages that teach that some will suffer eternal damnation)?

So if experience vice the word is the determination of doctrine then I should either become a Calvinist or a universalist. Are you one of these two pine tree?

Furthermore, "Kenny Copeland" as you refer to him is no ones healer. Jesus is the healer. If anyone looked to Copeland, Hagin et. al to be their healer then they failed miserably. The Bible says in James 5 that "the Lord will raise him up."

So Pinetree, I don't give a flip who is sick and who is not, which "faith teacher" died of sickness and which one did not. If you and your side are so Scripturally bankrupt that you cannot center these doctrinal debates on Scripture alone, then I pity you.

We were asked to prove that doctrine. I thought SCRIPTURE was sufficient proof. But I suppose when one cannot rebut the Scripture then they resort to these constant red herrings and strawmen as if someone's experience is a sound rebuttal of God's Word. Your side of this debate is pitiful. You guys really disgust me sometimes.

nm

[victoryword]

Wow, PT, my ears are ringing so I turned the volume down a little. Hope you don’t mind.

But you are right, everyone who claims it is God’s will to heal believers at all times and in every situation (except, I suppose, where there is a lack of what they call “faith”) also must admit that every one of them are either faithless or else they are not covered in the atonement of Christ because they, well, get sick. Even their most prominent faith teachers do …
Oral Roberts wears a pacemaker.

Kenneth Hagin (who has made the most outlandish statements regarding guaranteed healing for believers) died unhealed Sept.19,. 2003 in the cardiac intensive care unit of a Tulsa hospital after suffering a heart attack. Hagin’s sister had previously died unhealed of cancer.
Buddy Harrison Hagin’s son-in-law and founder of Harrison House Publishing, the largest disseminator of the PHIA doctrine, died of unhealed cancer in December 1999.

E.W. Kenyon died in 1948 while in a unhealed comatose cancerous state.

Charles Capps wife, Beverly, is under constant psychiatric care and uses meds to maintain unhealed emotional balance.

Kathryn Kuhlman died of unhealed heart failure in 1976 after suffering from a heart condition for twenty years.

Joyce Meyers has been medically treated for unhealed breast cancer.

John Osteen, although his wife Dodie was miraculously healed of liver cancer in the mid-1980s, himself died in a hospital of an unhealed heart condition. Osteen had suffered numerous unhealed medical problems.

Frederick Price’s wife, Betty, has undergone chemotherapy.

T.L. Osborne’s wife, Daisy, died in 1995 of unhealed cancer.

Rod Parsley has had back surgery and his son Austin suffers from Asperger's syndrome, a form of autism.

R.W. Shambach has had quadruple bypass surgery.

William Branham died in 1965, at age 56, from complication following an automobile accident.

A.A. Allen died of in San Francisco in1970 of sclerosis of the liver (brought on by alcohol toxicity) and cardiac arrest.

Jack Coe died in 1956 of unhealed polio.

Robert Kelso Carter, the father and originator of the modern physical-healing-is-in-the-atonement-doctrine (c.1884 with the book The Atonement for Sin and Sickness), died of tuberculosis in 1898. To his credit, he recanted the atonement-for-sickness doctrine after seeing its lack of effectiveness and being unable to adequate answer its challenges in his book Faith Healing Reviewed After Twenty Years, returning to medical school, and setting up a medical practice in Baltimore in 1895. He wrote the song, “Standing On the Promises.” Here’s a bio of Carter-click here (http://healingandrevival.com/BioRKCarter.htm).
While I sympathize with their illnesses I can’t help but wonder if they are ignorantly or willfully blind to the gaping holes in their theology or why what they believe does not work for them any more than for anyone else. I do not sympathize with with willful blind leasders of the blind.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.



~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain


Jim

Let me show you the usual hypocrisy of your camp here. In your OP you asked my side to do the following:

I would like to hear from those who disagree and believe that it is always God’s will to heal and to show me/us from scripture where this is unambiguously stated and why you believe it is always God’s will to heal the sick.


After we make our attempts you and yours do your usual fancy pants dancing around the Scriptures and resort to your usual off handed tactics. How am I to respect you guys and take you seriously when you ask for Biblical evidence and you turn around and attempt to deny the Bible with a list of people who got sick and died (supposedly).

The answer: I cannot. You guys have no Biblical basis for your beliefs and you both need to wake up to this fact. If you did, you would NOT have to resort to the usual foolishness. I came here to debate from Scripture. It is NOT my job to defend Hagin, Paula White, Copeland, or any other human being. Do you understand THAT?!

If your side is this Biblically replete and you have such little to no respect for God's Word then stop issuing challenges to prove something to you from the Bible. And don't give me this crap about a "private interpretation" since that is just another scapegoat for you. You simpky do not believe the Bible or you would not have to resort to this foolishness.

[JimfromOhio]

Wow, PT, my ears are ringing so I turned the volume down a little. Hope you don’t mind.

But you are right, everyone who claims it is God’s will to heal believers at all times and in every situation (except, I suppose, where there is a lack of what they call “faith”) also must admit that every one of them are either faithless or else they are not covered in the atonement of Christ because they, well, get sick. Even their most prominent faith teachers do …
Oral Roberts wears a pacemaker.

Kenneth Hagin (who has made the most outlandish statements regarding guaranteed healing for believers) died unhealed Sept.19,. 2003 in the cardiac intensive care unit of a Tulsa hospital after suffering a heart attack. Hagin’s sister had previously died unhealed of cancer.
Buddy Harrison Hagin’s son-in-law and founder of Harrison House Publishing, the largest disseminator of the PHIA doctrine, died of unhealed cancer in December 1999.

E.W. Kenyon died in 1948 while in a unhealed comatose cancerous state.

Charles Capps wife, Beverly, is under constant psychiatric care and uses meds to maintain unhealed emotional balance.

Kathryn Kuhlman died of unhealed heart failure in 1976 after suffering from a heart condition for twenty years.

Joyce Meyers has been medically treated for unhealed breast cancer.

John Osteen, although his wife Dodie was miraculously healed of liver cancer in the mid-1980s, himself died in a hospital of an unhealed heart condition. Osteen had suffered numerous unhealed medical problems.

Frederick Price’s wife, Betty, has undergone chemotherapy.

T.L. Osborne’s wife, Daisy, died in 1995 of unhealed cancer.

Rod Parsley has had back surgery and his son Austin suffers from Asperger's syndrome, a form of autism.

R.W. Shambach has had quadruple bypass surgery.

William Branham died in 1965, at age 56, from complication following an automobile accident.

A.A. Allen died of in San Francisco in1970 of sclerosis of the liver (brought on by alcohol toxicity) and cardiac arrest.

Jack Coe died in 1956 of unhealed polio.

Robert Kelso Carter, the father and originator of the modern physical-healing-is-in-the-atonement-doctrine (c.1884 with the book The Atonement for Sin and Sickness), died of tuberculosis in 1898. To his credit, he recanted the atonement-for-sickness doctrine after seeing its lack of effectiveness and being unable to adequate answer its challenges in his book Faith Healing Reviewed After Twenty Years, returning to medical school, and setting up a medical practice in Baltimore in 1895. He wrote the song, “Standing On the Promises.” Here’s a bio of Carter-click here (http://healingandrevival.com/BioRKCarter.htm).
While I sympathize with their illnesses I can’t help but wonder if they are ignorantly or willfully blind to the gaping holes in their theology or why what they believe does not work for them any more than for anyone else. I do not sympathize with with willful blind leasders of the blind.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.



~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain


Let's take a look at these Word of Faith preachers or faith healers for a moment.

Yesterday, in another thread, Victoryword answered PT's reponse of this question: “all the sick Christians on the earth today, are bound by the devil”? as "YUP".

According to Word of Faith doctrines, these faith healers were bound by the devil.

Let's consider Word of Faith's doctrines for a bit. Many Christians like me are believe that Word of Faith teaches contrary to the teachings of the Bible.

I don’t view their doctrines as the essentials of Christian life and practice. Looking at the names above, dead and/or sick, WOF teaches that a God who actually hears our prayers and wants to answer them by telling us of the desire of God to heal people of their physical infirmities when often goes unanswered for many Christians. What happened to THEM?

WOF have yet to prove a biblically-coherent theology of the language of empowerment of "FAITH". They often over-look GRACE. Grace of heart is a gift from God and this has nothing to do with the thorns because God change our circumstances by changing us internally, by allowing Him to lift us above our present thorn and He will lead us into His will.

Faith doctrine without GRACE is a form of legalism that was created by man.

Word of Faith can boost and preach all they want, at the end, they will get sick like everyone else on earth and one day, they will die.

Word of Faith doctrines are often called "dream doctrines". Dreaming and hoping in faith to get what they want.

[Jimbeaux]

First of all, "Who cares?"

If salvation is for all then why are so many dying and going to hell? Huh? Unless you are a Calvinist or a universalist, you would have a hard time answering that question. Does God predestine some to be lost in spite of His words in 1 Tim. 2:4 and 2 Pet. 3:9 stating His will for everyone's salvation? Does he eventually save all in the end as the universalist claims (while ignoring John 3:18, Rev. 20-21 and numerous other passages that teach that some will suffer eternal damnation)?

So if experience vice the word is the determination of doctrine then I should either become a Calvinist or a universalist. Are you one of these two pine tree?

Furthermore, "Kenny Copeland" as you refer to him is no ones healer. Jesus is the healer. If anyone looked to Copeland, Hagin et. al to be their healer then they failed miserably. The Bible says in James 5 that "the Lord will raise him up."

So Pinetree, I don't give a flip who is sick and who is not, which "faith teacher" died of sickness and which one did not. If you and your side are so Scripturally bankrupt that you cannot center these doctrinal debates on Scripture alone, then I pity you.

We were asked to prove that doctrine. I thought SCRIPTURE was sufficient proof. But I suppose when one cannot rebut the Scripture then they resort to these constant red herrings and strawmen as if someone's experience is a sound rebuttal of God's Word. Your side of this debate is pitiful. You guys really disgust me sometimes.
Sure salvation is for all and to all WHO BELIEVE, VW. No one WHO BELIEVES will ever go to hell.

Every believer is permanently saved. So, why isn’t every believer permanently healed, if healing is in the same atonement? Would you mind answering that question before you toss another one of your own? I have never gotten an answer to it in this forum yet.

And, despite your arrogant claim, VW, you didn’t prove anything. You just offered your own erroneous interpretations of scriptures as though you are an oracle of God and seem to expect the rest of us to fall into line. Sorry to disgust you, but we get a little disgusted, too.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[he4rty]

I do not know what God will do about your sickness. That is strictly God’s call and He is under no obligation to tell me, a third party, what He is doing in the life of someone else. But if God is teaching you something I am quite sure He knows how to do it and what He does after that is still His call, not ours.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



Would you leave your child still grounded after he had learnt his lesson or would you remove the punishment, we know how to give good gifts.

Yes, In society some punishments are preset and even if we have fully repented of that thing we done we must still serve the sentence for it.
Now the only sentence I know of that applies to all of us is that the wages of sin are death.

[JimfromOhio]

First of all, "Who cares?"

If salvation is for all then why are so many dying and going to hell? Huh? Unless you are a Calvinist or a universalist, you would have a hard time answering that question. Does God predestine some to be lost in spite of His words in 1 Tim. 2:4 and 2 Pet. 3:9 stating His will for everyone's salvation? Does he eventually save all in the end as the universalist claims (while ignoring John 3:18, Rev. 20-21 and numerous other passages that teach that some will suffer eternal damnation)?

So if experience vice the word is the determination of doctrine then I should either become a Calvinist or a universalist. Are you one of these two pine tree?

Furthermore, "Kenny Copeland" as you refer to him is no ones healer. Jesus is the healer. If anyone looked to Copeland, Hagin et. al to be their healer then they failed miserably. The Bible says in James 5 that "the Lord will raise him up."

So Pinetree, I don't give a flip who is sick and who is not, which "faith teacher" died of sickness and which one did not. If you and your side are so Scripturally bankrupt that you cannot center these doctrinal debates on Scripture alone, then I pity you.

We were asked to prove that doctrine. I thought SCRIPTURE was sufficient proof. But I suppose when one cannot rebut the Scripture then they resort to these constant red herrings and strawmen as if someone's experience is a sound rebuttal of God's Word. Your side of this debate is pitiful. You guys really disgust me sometimes.


Who cares?

This is like no-brainer. You preach the doctrines created by man that used the Bible as a source. Scripture is SUFFICIENT PROOF according to the Bible, not to man's doctrine. I have learned to be careful how I read and need to look from doctrinal perspective rather than each of our own satisfaction. I do not want to read watered down gospel doctrines because it is false gospel and doctrinally wrong. It is my responsibility as a Christian to discern and I don't want to be gullible. I can either be gullible or discerner. I choose to be a discerner.

This is one of them. Word of Faith is all TALK and don't really prove anything at all.

[pinetree]

First of all, "Who cares?"

If salvation is for all then why are so many dying and going to hell? Huh? Unless you are a Calvinist or a universalist, you would have a hard time answering that question. Does God predestine some to be lost in spite of His words in 1 Tim. 2:4 and 2 Pet. 3:9 stating His will for everyone's salvation? Does he eventually save all in the end as the universalist claims (while ignoring John 3:18, Rev. 20-21 and numerous other passages that teach that some will suffer eternal damnation)?

So if experience vice the word is the determination of doctrine then I should either become a Calvinist or a universalist. Are you one of these two pine tree?

Furthermore, "Kenny Copeland" as you refer to him is no ones healer. Jesus is the healer. If anyone looked to Copeland, Hagin et. al to be their healer then they failed miserably. The Bible says in James 5 that "the Lord will raise him up."

So Pinetree, I don't give a flip who is sick and who is not, which "faith teacher" died of sickness and which one did not. If you and your side are so Scripturally bankrupt that you cannot center these doctrinal debates on Scripture alone, then I pity you.

We were asked to prove that doctrine. I thought SCRIPTURE was sufficient proof. But I suppose when one cannot rebut the Scripture then they resort to these constant red herrings and strawmen as if someone's experience is a sound rebuttal of God's Word. Your side of this debate is pitiful. You guys really disgust me sometimes.
ok,let me quote an experience for ALL of you wofers to do tommorrow..
Matthew 10:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

Come on,after all it is a formula,I want to see you go raise 5 tommorrow,and all the other wofers do the same!

I still have the 10,000.00 because no one tossed a mountain into the sea!

Seems like we should now we have 2 verses you guys quote,but just cant seem to make em be a formula.

Come on,make their experience from scripture become yours today.:thumbsup:

If you are going to quote some,why not quote em all?

I got the news on,no mountains in the sea,lets see it today wofers go into all the funeral homes,and raise the dead!;):D:P

with all you wofers in one accord,there should be thousands raised today!:clap:

[victoryword]

To accept your conclusions I/we are going to have to accept your premise, VW. And I do not. I would much prefer a clear statement that says something close to it is always God’s will to heal without having to make leaps of logic, without having to thread scriptures or add a particular small group’s interpretations of scripture. Surely, if a doctrine is true, there is a clear statement to that effect.
As for the James 5.14-15, I have seen this work too many times to ever doubt it is true but I have also seen times when it didn’t work. Why? Was it that one of us didn’t have faith when we prayed? If so, which one and how do we remedy it? Did we use the wrong kind of oil (Havoline instead of Quaker State)? Was one of the group not really an elder? Is there hidden unforgiven sin? In whom? These are questions most often without answers and, once again, I appeal to 1 John 5.14.15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205.14-15;&version=50;) and realize that my/our “prayer” may not be “according to His will.” Maybe God has something else in mind. Maybe God knows best. Maybe God lives outside our theology and preconception of Him?
As for the “sozo” part—since, apparently, a known language fails to communicate the “truth” (as some want it), I guess we have to go to a dead foreign language, which no one in this forum knows, in order to support a point of view. Since I (and, my guess is, you) cannot read a single sentence in Greek, much less understand all its nuances and idioms, can’t we just stick to a language we all can read?

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.



~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain


Jim

You claim to have seen James 5:14-15 work sometimes and at other times it did not work as if those "other times" God was not true to His Word. Perhaps in your ideaology, God is so sovereign that He can mean what He says sometimes and at other times he does not have to mean it?

In James 5:14-15, never once does God say that He will SOMETIMES heal. Not once Jim. Not even once. The Greek does not give any hints that God may at times ignore the prayer prayed in faith and not heal the sick person or raise him up. But your ideaology reads that into it. Let's see how James 5:14-15 is interpretted by the Jim Camp:

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And if it be the will of God, the prayer of faith may save the sick. But this should not always be expected. Also, if it is the will of God, the Lord might raise him up. Nonetheless, the only real guarantee that the sick person has is that if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him (James 5:14-15; the JimBeaux Translation).

Now that is your translation Jim. But the Bible speaks different on the subject. God says that if He said it, He will do it (Num. 23:19) and that He watches over His Word to perform it (Jer. 1:12). So sad that your theology does not include the faithfulness of god. Instead, the "sovereignty" espoused on this forum swallows up God's other attributes to include His integrity, faitfulness, compassion, etc.

Really sad.

[Balance]

It can be proven to some and to others it can never be proven.

[pinetree]

Let's take a look at these Word of Faith preachers or faith healers for a moment.

Yesterday, in another thread, Victoryword answered PT's reponse of this question: “all the sick Christians on the earth today, are bound by the devil”? as "YUP".

According to Word of Faith doctrines, these faith healers were bound by the devil.

Let's consider Word of Faith's doctrines for a bit. Many Christians like me are believe that Word of Faith teaches contrary to the teachings of the Bible.

I don’t view their doctrines as the essentials of Christian life and practice. Looking at the names above, dead and/or sick, WOF teaches that a God who actually hears our prayers and wants to answer them by telling us of the desire of God to heal people of their physical infirmities when often goes unanswered for many Christians. What happened to THEM?

WOF have yet to prove a biblically-coherent theology of the language of empowerment of "FAITH". They often over-look GRACE. Grace of heart is a gift from God and this has nothing to do with the thorns because God change our circumstances by changing us internally, by allowing Him to lift us above our present thorn and He will lead us into His will.

Faith doctrine without GRACE is a form of legalism that was created by man.

Word of Faith can boost and preach all they want, at the end, they will get sick like everyone else on earth and one day, they will die.

Word of Faith doctrines are often called "dream doctrines". Dreaming and hoping in faith to get what they want.

ya know Jim,ya hit the nail on the head.:thumbsup:Faith comes through grace,lest any man can boast,or produce it themselves.:)

[BenAdam]

You claim to have seen James 5:14-15 work sometimes and at other times it did not work as if those "other times" God was not true to His Word.

Well maybe God will not be true to your version of His Word, rather He desires to be true to what it really means.

[pinetree]

Well maybe God will not be true to your version of His Word, rather He desires to be true to what it really means.
excellent captain!:thumbsup:

[victoryword]

ok,let me quote an experience for ALL of you wofers to do tommorrow..
Matthew 10:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

Come on,after all it is a formula,I want to see you go raise 5 tommorrow,and all the other wofers do the same!

I still have the 10,000.00 because no one tossed a mountain into the sea!

Seems like we should now we have 2 verses you guys quote,but just cant seem to make em be a formula.

Come on,make their experience from scripture become yours today.:thumbsup:

I got the news on,no mountains in the sea,lets see it today wofers go into all the funeral homes,and raise the dead!;):D:P

with all you wofers in one accord,there should be thousands raised today!:clap:


Ah, we have an UNBELIEVER. You know, Satan did the same thing to Jesus. he issued a similar challenge by quoting a Scripture. Let me show you:

Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God (Mat. 4:5-7).

Just like you, the devil quoted a promise from God and then asked jesus to "prove himself" and to prove that this is true by performing some act. Let me tell you Pinetree, that like Jesus did with Satan, I do with YOU and tell you that I will not tempt the Lord my God just to prove something to you.

If you don't believe that it is God's will to heal the sick and raise the dead then live in your powerless Christian existence. But in the meantime, watch how you bring these challenges because you may not be sure where such a challlenge originated from.

[Jimbeaux]

Jim,
I have read what you wrote here a couple of times and I have a question...sincerely...not for "debate purposes"...
You said you have seen it work too many times to ever doubt that it is true...then turn right around and say it hasn't worked. My first thought was, "well, is it true or not?" Then you go on to ask the "why" questions.
My question to you is...do you think this particular verse is "conditional"? If the conditions are not met, the verse won't "work"?
I don't know if this is a good comparison, but it is the thought that came to me: We know it is God's will that all be saved, that none should perish,...but not all are saved. Even some who will say "Lord, Lord", He will say He never knew them. So, even salvation is "conditional", right? If the right conditions are not met, one will not have true salvation. Even though we know it is God's will that all be saved.
Do you think there is any comparison between the two? That maybe conditions DO have to be met in those verses in James?
I am not asking this to put guilt on anyone for not having enough faith, etc.
Just wondering if that is in fact why it doesn't work sometimes?

Also, in the times you say it didn't work, did you notice anything different when praying for those people than the times it did work?

No, I noticed nothing different. They were faithful to call me I was faithful to come and pray for them, even anoint them with oil, and pray with the same faith I ever had when I prayed for people who did receive healing. I used to be perplexed by this, but no longer (see below).

The problem is that no one who believes that James 5.14-15 is a guarantee of healing, a formula, can say why it does not work perfectly. They do not know why some people who faithfully call for the leaders of the church who come and anoint them and pray over them are not healed. They can offer no held except maybe it is this or maybe it is that.

And I have an answer, a perfectly clear and satisfactory one based on scripture (1 John 5.14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205.14-15;&version=50;)): when we have followed all the formulas and remained unhealed we need to accept that it is not in God’s will to do so, despite what our preferred theology may tell us. We have simply not asked for something that is “according to His will.”

Simple, when you don’t have preconceptions (misconceptions) about God.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[pinetree]

Ah, we have an UNBELIEVER. You know, Satan did the same thing to Jesus. he issued a similar challenge by quoting a Scripture. Let me show you:
Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God (Mat. 4:5-7).
Just like you, the devil quoted a promise from God and then asked jesus to "prove himself" and to prove that this is true by performing some act. Let me tell you Pinetree, that like Jesus did with Satan, I do with YOU and tell you that I will not tempt the Lord my God just to prove something to you.

If you don't believe that it is God's will to heal the sick and raise the dead then live in your powerless Christian existence. But in the meantime, watch how you bring these challenges because you may not be sure where such a challlenge originated from.
nice try..

Now,it says to be doers of the word..
Faith without works is dead!
So lets get to those funeral halls today!:thumbsup:

I mean if you guys think all should be healed,then lets get all those dead raised,it came out of the same great commission! same verse! you cant quote only half!

[victoryword]

Well maybe God will not be true to your version of His Word, rather He desires to be true to what it really means.

So then tell me Ben Adam, is this my version or is this the version found originally in the Bible?

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him (James 5:14-15).

If this is "my version" then prove it. And then show me where I am misinterpretting this passage. Show me where in the passage there is a "might" or a "maybe" or a "possibly not" or any hint of a denial. I don't think you can.

Not sure why I keep answering these ridiculous posts.

[JimfromOhio]

Ah, we have an UNBELIEVER. You know, Satan did the same thing to Jesus. he issued a similar challenge by quoting a Scripture. Let me show you:

Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God (Mat. 4:5-7).
Just like you, the devil quoted a promise from God and then asked jesus to "prove himself" and to prove that this is true by performing some act. Let me tell you Pinetree, that like Jesus did with Satan, I do with YOU and tell you that I will not tempt the Lord my God just to prove something to you.

If you don't believe that it is God's will to heal the sick and raise the dead then live in your powerless Christian existence. But in the meantime, watch how you bring these challenges because you may not be sure where such a challlenge originated from.

Actually, you are focusing on man's teachings on healing of man can obtain TODAY while the Bible teaches the healing of the atonement will bring about our resurrection in glory, where there will be no pain or suffering (Rev. 21:1-4; 22:1-3). Jesus died to save us from our sins is clear both in Isaiah 53 and many other portions of Scripture. What is the most balanced biblical statement regarding healing? Healing does happen and at the same time, God will commend you for your faith, if you have not received what has been promised (i.e. healing) before you die. God has planned something BETTER for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect (Heb 11:39-40).

My FAITH is in God, not in my faith to claim what I want at will. Spiritual faith keeps our hearts open to whatever is of God, and rejects everything that is NOT of God, not matter how wonderful they offer to us in temporal sense.

[victoryword]

nice try..

Now,it says to be doers of the word..
Faith without works is dead!
So lets get to those funeral halls today!:thumbsup:

"Tempt ye not the Lord thy God" said Jesus to Satan.

[Jimbeaux]

Ah, we have an UNBELIEVER. You know, Satan did the same thing to Jesus. he issued a similar challenge by quoting a Scripture. Let me show you:

Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God (Mat. 4:5-7).
Just like you, the devil quoted a promise from God and then asked jesus to "prove himself" and to prove that this is true by performing some act. Let me tell you Pinetree, that like Jesus did with Satan, I do with YOU and tell you that I will not tempt the Lord my God just to prove something to you.

If you don't believe that it is God's will to heal the sick and raise the dead then live in your powerless Christian existence. But in the meantime, watch how you bring these challenges because you may not be sure where such a challlenge originated from.

Then are we mimicking the devil when we obey the scripture that tells us to “prove all things”? If you say do this and that will happen or believe that and this will happen and we ask you to prove it, are we acting like the devil? I would say we are acting like obedient children.

And FYI, I do not live a powerless Christian existence. I would not say that to anyone on your side of these debates. I do not know how God uses you but I do know it is not because you have a better theology than someone else. Theology doesn’t heal; God does. He has not asked us to have faith in our doctrine but to "Have faith in God." FYI #2, I witness healings, answers to prayer and miracles on a regular basis, even more so than I did when I believed like you do. I do not chalk it up to getting my doctrine straight. It is probably because I just have more years and experience under my belt and more opportunities to minister.

So, personally, I think you are out of line to assume you are more powerful than anyone else in this forum.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[BenAdam]

So then tell me Ben Adam, is this my version or is this the version found originally in the Bible?

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him (James 5:14-15).
If this is "my version" then prove it. And then show me where I am misinterpretting this passage. Show me where in the passage there is a "might" or a "maybe" or a "possibly not" or any hint of a denial. I don't think you can.

Not sure why I keep answering these ridiculous posts.

Well I am no greek scholar, but I don't read any greek word in there that states he will be healed, seems more like it is dealing with sin and getting right with God to me.

On another subject. You think my posts are ridiculous? Then do us both a favor, don't answer them. Respect what I have to say as I do what you have to say. Maybe we can learn, but your attacks discredit anything and everything you have to say.

[pinetree]

"Tempt ye not the Lord thy God" said Jesus to Satan.
Please do not insult me with cheap poiltical tactics!:D

Now,if a sick Christian,who has a mustard seed of faith,asked you to go raise 5 dead people today,and you said I cant!

Then why would it not be a fair question for the sick saint to ask ..why then do you quote I should be healed today!?

[pinetree]

Well I am no greek scholar, but I don't read any greek word in there that states he will be healed, seems more like it is dealing with sin and getting right with God to me.

On another subject. You think my posts are ridiculous? Then do us both a favor, don't answer them. Respect what I have to say as I do what you have to say. Maybe we can learn, but your attacks discredit anything and everything you have to say.
yup,when he gets cornered,he says I am of satan..

cheap political tactic:D

[JimfromOhio]

Jim

You claim to have seen James 5:14-15 work sometimes and at other times it did not work as if those "other times" God was not true to His Word. Perhaps in your ideaology, God is so sovereign that He can mean what He says sometimes and at other times he does not have to mean it?

In James 5:14-15, never once does God say that He will SOMETIMES heal. Not once Jim. Not even once. The Greek does not give any hints that God may at times ignore the prayer prayed in faith and not heal the sick person or raise him up. But your ideaology reads that into it. Let's see how James 5:14-15 is interpretted by the Jim Camp:

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And if it be the will of God, the prayer of faith may save the sick. But this should not always be expected. Also, if it is the will of God, the Lord might raise him up. Nonetheless, the only real guarantee that the sick person has is that if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him (James 5:14-15; the JimBeaux Translation).
Now that is your translation Jim. But the Bible speaks different on the subject. God says that if He said it, He will do it (Num. 23:19) and that He watches over His Word to perform it (Jer. 1:12). So sad that your theology does not include the faithfulness of god. Instead, the "sovereignty" espoused on this forum swallows up God's other attributes to include His integrity, faitfulness, compassion, etc.

Really sad.
There are many who are born with illness or fell into illness in early live so this does not apply.

There are others who got sick directly from sin as whether or not the a Christian understood how his/her sickness was related to his/her sin, as in the case of James 5:14-15, a Christian would and should know that there was sin in his/her life that needed to be dealt with. James explained in detailed instructions for those who are sick (astheneo) which is a word is often used in the New Testament of those who are spiritually weak or immature (Rom. 14:1,2; 1 Cor. 8:11,12). The Bible does not teach that He will always physically, emotionally and mentally heal those who come to Him in faith. His sovereignty reserves the right to heal or not to heal as He sees fit (1 Peter 3:17, 1 Peter 4:19, 1 Thessalonians 5:18).

[victoryword]

Well I am no greek scholar, but I don't read any greek word in there that states he will be healed, seems more like it is dealing with sin and getting right with God to me.

On another subject. You think my posts are ridiculous? Then do us both a favor, don't answer them. Respect what I have to say as I do what you have to say. Maybe we can learn, but your attacks discredit anything and everything you have to say.

Your posts are ridiculous. I answer them for the benfit of others and not you.

Now, here is a literal Greek translation:

ekklEsia kai proseuchomai epi autos aleiphO autos elaion ho onoma ho kurios kai ho euchE ho pistis sOzO ho kamnO kai egeirO autos ho kurios kan hamartia eimi poieO aphiEmi autos

IS-beING-UN-FIRM ANY IN YOU(p) LET-him-TOWARD-CALL THE SENIORS OF-THE OUT-CALLED AND LET-THEM-pray in him RUBBING him to-OLIVE-on THE NAME OF-THE Master AND THE vow OF-THE BELIEF SHALL-BE-SAVING THE FALTERING AND SHALL-BE-ROUSING him THE MASTER AND-(IF)-EVER misses he-MAY_BE HAVING-DONE it-SHALL-BE-BEING-FROM-LE to-him.

You can find it at the Online Interlinear Bible. Do a Google search for it. If the part about the "Lord raising him up" does not convince you that it is dealing with more than just sin and getting right, then you have simply blinded yourself to the truth.

[victoryword]

Then are we mimicking the devil when we obey the scripture that tells us to “prove all things”?


Your side most certainly is, yes.

[JimfromOhio]

Your posts are ridiculous. I answer them for the benfit of others and not you.

Now, here is a literal Greek translation:

ekklEsia kai proseuchomai epi autos aleiphO autos elaion ho onoma ho kurios kai ho euchE ho pistis sOzO ho kamnO kai egeirO autos ho kurios kan hamartia eimi poieO aphiEmi autos

IS-beING-UN-FIRM ANY IN YOU(p) LET-him-TOWARD-CALL THE SENIORS OF-THE OUT-CALLED AND LET-THEM-pray in him RUBBING him to-OLIVE-on THE NAME OF-THE Master AND THE vow OF-THE BELIEF SHALL-BE-SAVING THE FALTERING AND SHALL-BE-ROUSING him THE MASTER AND-(IF)-EVER misses he-MAY_BE HAVING-DONE it-SHALL-BE-BEING-FROM-LE to-him.
You can find it at the Online Interlinear Bible. Do a Google search for it. If the part about the "Lord raising him up" does not convince you that it is dealing with more than just sin and getting right, then you have simply blinded yourself to the truth.

“That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death”. Phil 3:10

Corinthians 15.
Verses 3-4:
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day .

Verses 12-19
But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

1 Peter 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

When Jesus said, "I am the resurrection, and the life" (Jn. 11:25). He was stating that He not only heals but able to raise people from death. God's promise is eternal because Christ is the mediator of the covenant, that we receive the promised eternal inheritance. Its not about Faith but rather about God's character. God alone gives life.:thumbsup:

[Jimbeaux]

Your side most certainly is, yes.

Thanx for saying it, VW. This may come back to haunt you but now we know how you feel about us. I could say the same about your beliefs ... but I won’t. Tossing grenades and defaming each other does not good.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[JimfromOhio]

Thanx for saying it, VW. This may come back to haunt you but now we know how you feel about us. I could say the same about your beliefs ... but I won’t. Tossing grenades and defaming each other does not good.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



He is frustrated with his doctrines and wondered why he is not getting through. His flesh is revealing his fustrations.

[mont974x4]

Is it God's will to heal? Yes and no.

Yes, He desires to give us good gifts. Yes, He is our Healer.

No, we are not promised full physical healing in this life.

Why might He have some of us wait for healing?

nasb
2Co 12:5 On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses.
2Co 12:6 For if I do wish to boast I will not be foolish, for I will be speaking the truth; but I refrain from this, so that no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me.
2Co 12:7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!
2Co 12:8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.
2Co 12:9 And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.


Paul suffered mightily in many ways. I doubt any of us would be so bold as to claim he lacked the faith to be healed, or some other such nonsense.

In essence God told Paul "no" to physical healing in this life. However, we know that in the scheme of eternity God really meant, "wait".

Was Jacob healed from his limp?
Was Samsons sight returned?
Don't we all die? Get sick?

[BenAdam]

Your posts are ridiculous. I answer them for the benfit of others and not you.

Now, here is a literal Greek translation:

ekklEsia kai proseuchomai epi autos aleiphO autos elaion ho onoma ho kurios kai ho euchE ho pistis sOzO ho kamnO kai egeirO autos ho kurios kan hamartia eimi poieO aphiEmi autos

IS-beING-UN-FIRM ANY IN YOU(p) LET-him-TOWARD-CALL THE SENIORS OF-THE OUT-CALLED AND LET-THEM-pray in him RUBBING him to-OLIVE-on THE NAME OF-THE Master AND THE vow OF-THE BELIEF SHALL-BE-SAVING THE FALTERING AND SHALL-BE-ROUSING him THE MASTER AND-(IF)-EVER misses he-MAY_BE HAVING-DONE it-SHALL-BE-BEING-FROM-LE to-him.
You can find it at the Online Interlinear Bible. Do a Google search for it. If the part about the "Lord raising him up" does not convince you that it is dealing with more than just sin and getting right, then you have simply blinded yourself to the truth.


Well VW, I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I know see that you are dogmatic and do not care about belittling of others.

Quite simply you have no credibility. Good day to you sir.

[Balance]

Thanx for saying it, VW. This may come back to haunt you but now we know how you feel about us. I could say the same about your beliefs ... but I won’t.

You won't???? You have been doing exactly that for four years?

Tossing grenades and defaming each other does not good. Then why do you keep on doing it?

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain





Same back atcha big guy!;);)

Pot: - hey Kettle
Kettle: - yeah,
Pot: you are black
Kettle - so are you

[LeadWorship]

lol

[Jimbeaux]

You won't???? You have been doing exactly that for four years?


Same back atcha big guy!;);)

Pot: - hey Kettle
Kettle: - yeah,
Pot: you are black
Kettle - so are you



Since you are now making this a personal matter and have chosen to falsely accuse me, I am going to ask you to show me where I have ever said that anyone in this forum is “bound by Satan” or “mimicking the devil” or anything resembling those remarks. You said I have been doing exactly that for years; now I am going to ask you to prove it. You owe me that.

This is called bearing false witness and worse still in a public forum. I deny that I have ever said anything resembling the above and will ask you to prove it or else apologize publicly for saying it and retract your statement.

I am surprised at you. I would never say this about you.

This kind of mudslinging and character assassination is what makes honest debates deplorable.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Optimax]

It is a Pentecostal (and offshoots) mantra that “healing is God’s will” and by that they mean in every instance. This belief is peculiar to P/C and stems from an acceptance that, since (they believe) physical healing is in the Atonement just as is the redemption from sin, then God must feel toward sickness and healing as He does toward sin and forgiveness. Since it is always God’s will to forgive, ergo it must also always be God’s will to heal. Sickness is equated with sin and always seen as a menace. And they have scripture to support this view.

But, if you do not accept the doctrine that physical healing is included in the atonement of Christ for sin then you will take a different view of sickness. It is not the menace to mankind that sin is. Sickness, though often painful, can actually work good in a person and God may, indeed, use an illness to discipline, train or modify the behavior of a Christian. Just as with those who believe otherwise, this group also has scripture to support their view.

Since I fall into the latter category, I would like to hear from those who disagree and believe that it is always God’s will to heal and to show me/us from scripture where this is unambiguously stated and why you believe it is always God’s will to heal the sick.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



There is no scripture I know of that God says " It is my will to heal everyone".

However we can learn from what scripture says.

In the scripture below a man comes to Jesus and says that he knows God can heal but ask if he is willing.

Jesus answer was "I will".

Mt 8:2-3
2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will ; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
KJV

In the scriptures listed below we can see that God does nothing because of who a person is or isn't. He is not a respecter of persons.

Ac 10:34

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
KJV

Dt 10:17

17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
KJV

2 Ch 19:7

7 Wherefore now let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.
KJV

Lk 20:21

21 And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person of any, but teachest the way of God truly:
KJV

Ro 2:11

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
KJV

Eph 6:9

9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
KJV

Col 3:25-4:1

25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
KJV

There is more "no respecter of persons" scripture but that is enough to see that God is no respecter of persons.

Therefore we can see that if it is God's will to heal one then it is His will to heal all.

[LeadWorship]

Come on,after all it is a formula...


Please tell us then. I have never seen or heard anyone say they know a "formula" by which healings happen. I didn't know there was a "formula". I know there's multiple ways, but not a formula.

[dkbwarrior]

But you are right, everyone who claims it is God’s will to heal believers at all times and in every situation (except, I suppose, where there is a lack of what they call “faith”) also must admit that every one of them are either faithless or else they are not covered in the atonement of Christ because they, well, get sick.

According to your own logic, you would have to consider yourself faithless then, because you do not use your faith to save the world. Why are people dying and going to hell, when faith can save them? Doesn't the Bible say that God wills that all be saved? Why don't you save them?

Of course you cant, for the same reason that Jesus could do no mighty work in His own hometown. Because of their unbelief.

Peace...

[Jimbeaux]

There is no scripture I know of that God says " It is my will to heal everyone".

However we can learn from what scripture says.

In the scripture below a man comes to Jesus and says that he knows God can heal but ask if he is willing.

Jesus answer was "I will".

Mt 8:2-3
2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will ; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
KJV

In the scriptures listed below we can see that God does nothing because of who a person is or isn't. He is not a respecter of persons.

Ac 10:34

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
KJV

Dt 10:17

17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
KJV

2 Ch 19:7

7 Wherefore now let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.
KJV

Lk 20:21

21 And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person of any, but teachest the way of God truly:
KJV

Ro 2:11

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
KJV

Eph 6:9

9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
KJV

Col 3:25-4:1

25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
KJV

There is more "no respecter of persons" scripture but that is enough to see that God is no respecter of persons.

Therefore we can see that if it is God's will to heal one then it is His will to heal all.

So, when Jesus told this ONE person on the ONE occasion that He was willing to heal HIM, we are to assume from that that it is God’s will to heal everybody at all times because He is no respecter of persons.

Then, if this is a proper extrapolation of scripture, why isn’t everybody healed at all times?

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Jimbeaux]

According to your own logic, you would have to consider yourself faithless then, because you do not use your faith to save the world. Why are people dying and going to hell, when faith can save them? Doesn't the Bible say that God wills that all be saved? Why don't you save them?

Of course you cant, for the same reason that Jesus could do no mighty work in His own hometown. Because of their unbelief.

Peace...

Okay.

:sigh:

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Optimax]

So, when Jesus told this ONE person on the ONE occasion that He was willing to heal HIM, we are to assume from that that it is God’s will to heal everybody at all times because He is no respecter of persons.

Then, if this is a proper extrapolation of scripture, why isn’t everybody healed at all times?

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



It is God's will that all be saved.

Why isn't everyone saved.

Because it is for "whosoever will".

God made the new birth available to "whosoever will".

Whosoever will what? Whosoever will receive salvation.

Healing is the same. God made it available to who ever will receive it.

Same exact process as being saved is, which is by faith.

[Balance]

Since you are now making this a personal matter and have chosen to falsely accuse me,

I haven't falsely accused you of anything and I am settled to let your words speak for you.

As for me - I'm done trying to reason with people who will not listen, nor even acknowledge a scriptural reply.

Your words speak for you, as mine speak for me.

[Tamara224]

Same back atcha big guy!;);)

Pot: - hey Kettle
Kettle: - yeah,
Pot: you are black
Kettle - so are you



That's a lie!! I've been reading Jimbeaux's posts for 2 1/2 years now and I've never once seen him insinuate that another believer is playing the part of Satan or that other believers are bound by Satan or that other believers are "powerless".

This vendetta against Jimbeaux is getting really old Balance. Maybe you should just put him on ignore and let it go. Bearing false witness against him isn't going to prove that you're right.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting sick of seeing the sniping at Jimbeaux around here. Jimbeaux isn't perfect, and he can come across as harsh sometimes (you know it's true, Jimbeaux:)) but he doesn't deserve the constant battering that several people in this forum give him.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

[Jimbeaux]

It is God's will that all be saved.

Why isn't everyone saved.

Because it is for "whosoever will".

God made the new birth available to "whosoever will".

Whosoever will what? Whosoever will receive salvation.

Healing is the same. God made it available to who ever will receive it.

Same exact process as being saved is, which is by faith.

Well, if you don’t know the answer to this, this is a hopeless discussion. God’s will is to save everybody but it is conditioned on them believing in Christ. when they do, they become believers and have eternal life. That’s what the Atonement is for.

Why then, if every believer is eternally saved, aren’t they also eternally healed, if it is all in the same Atonement? Are their two atonements? Is one a full atonement and the other partial?

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[GreatistheLord]

Well, if you don’t know the answer to this, this is a hopeless discussion. God’s will is to save everybody but it is conditioned on them believing in Christ. when they do, they become believers and have eternal life. That’s what the Atonement is for.

Why then, if every believer is eternally saved, aren’t they also eternally healed, if it is all in the same Atonement? Are their two atonements? Is one a full atonement and the other partial?

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



Hebrews 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

But you probably knew that already.

[Jimbeaux]

I haven't falsely accused you of anything and I am settled to let your words speak for you.

As for me - I'm done trying to reason with people who will not listen, nor even acknowledge a scriptural reply.

Your words speak for you, as mine speak for me.





I want to get this straight. I am not just going to drop it.

So, you are NOT saying that I have accused people of being bound by Satan or mimicking the devil. Is that what you are saying? If you are accusing me of that you are going to have to prove it. If you didn’t then I would like to know it (because it sure sounded like you did).

While I do not think much of many of the beliefs you try to pass off as biblical in this forum, I have always respected you as a person and everyone else I may disagree with. Issues are issues, I will gladly debate them; but individuals are people that God loves, my brothers and sisters in Christ, and even though I might disagree with them (and sometimes strongly), I would never defame them or you.

And you are right, by our words we are either condemned or justified.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[JCFantasy23]

It is tragic, but sometime some things are meant to be. Some children are meant to die young, and this is the hardest thing I face. I do not think God's will is to heal all everytime, or we would be immortal.

[GreatistheLord]

It's not so tragic, they're in a better place now. We all have a time to die, regardless of what we believe. Let's rejoice that we have an eternal hope in Jesus.

[pinetree]

So, when Jesus told this ONE person on the ONE occasion that He was willing to heal HIM, we are to assume from that that it is God’s will to heal everybody at all times because He is no respecter of persons.

Then, if this is a proper extrapolation of scripture, why isn’t everybody healed at all times?

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



THANK U THANK U THANK U.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Balance]

I want to get this straight. I am not just going to drop it.

So, you are NOT saying that I have accused people of being bound by Satan or mimicking the devil.

NO Jim - you have never done that - you have however called people false prophets, teachers - cultist and the like.


Is that what you are saying? If you are accusing me of that you are going to have to prove it. If you didn’t then I would like to know it (because it sure sounded like you did).

My apologies - I am not saying that.

While I do not think much of many of the beliefs you try to pass off as biblical in this forum,

I doubt you really know what my beliefs are - the ones you say they are - are certainly not as I have said many times.


I have always respected you as a person and everyone else

I don't doubt you have have respect - your words just do not show it often enough. IMO


I may disagree with. Issues are issues, I will gladly debate them; but individuals are people that God loves, my brothers and sisters in Christ, and even though I might disagree with them (and sometimes strongly), I would never defame them or you.

But what you are not seeing, and I'm not sure why, you are defaming an entire people group because of the bad teaching of just a few of them.

And you are right, by our words we are either condemned or justified.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



You have so much knowledge and gifting to offer us - I wish you would speak FOR what you believe instead of focusing on the few Word of Faith teachers that teach garbage.

In pointing out the few - you miss all the rest of us.

[pinetree]

Please tell us then. I have never seen or heard anyone say they know a "formula" by which healings happen. I didn't know there was a "formula". I know there's multiple ways, but not a formula.


Originally Posted by Jimbeaux http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47873114#post47873114)
So, when Jesus told this ONE person on the ONE occasion that He was willing to heal HIM, we are to assume from that that it is God’s will to heal everybody at all times because He is no respecter of persons.

Then, if this is a proper extrapolation of scripture, why isn’t everybody healed at all times?

~Jim
This is what I meant,it is ~Jims quote,but it helps to show what I mean.:)

[pinetree]

It's not so tragic, they're in a better place now. We all have a time to die, regardless of what we believe. Let's rejoice that we have an eternal hope in Jesus.
hello,tell a grieving loved one,who just lost someone it is not tragic.:o

[pinetree]

It is tragic, but sometime some things are meant to be. Some children are meant to die young, and this is the hardest thing I face. I do not think God's will is to heal all everytime, or we would be immortal.
Thank you for your heartfelt words..

As far as we know,Joseph died too..

I am sure,Joseph and Mary,by then,recognized who Jesus was,and how he could have changed that destiny.

[JimfromOhio]

According to your own logic, you would have to consider yourself faithless then, because you do not use your faith to save the world. Why are people dying and going to hell, when faith can save them? Doesn't the Bible say that God wills that all be saved? Why don't you save them?

Of course you cant, for the same reason that Jesus could do no mighty work in His own hometown. Because of their unbelief.

Peace...
Unbelief is the oldest of the many spiritual diseases by which fallen human nature is afflicted. Flesh produces fear to motivate them to do 'works" (or unbelief) while Spirit produces faith. Saving faith is not a system or method but rather how we respond to God through His Grace by the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Eternal Security = saving faith makes us an overcomer- Revelation 3:5 "that is overcoming", looking back in one of Apostle John's letters, 1 John 5:4,"For whatever or whoever is born of God is overcoming the world."

I am reminded of this verse, 1 Thessalonians 1:5 "because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake." Contrary to what we have learned that we are to focus on our "efforts" towards faith which leads to pride. Word of Faith's legalism of "works of faith" is pride which is flesh-lead based on flesh efforts. Pride leads to the "I can do it myself" approach. We think we're capable of anything.

[Jimbeaux]

You have so much knowledge and gifting to offer us - I wish you would speak FOR what you believe instead of focusing on the few Word of Faith teachers that teach garbage.

In pointing out the few - you miss all the rest of us.


I do speak for what I believe, B. You just seem to want to focus on the negative posts.

But what about that nasty negative personal accusation you made of me? Are you going to prove I actually said those things, apologize or just ignore it and hope I forget about it? I do not want to belabor this thing and I am not offended but I do deserve better treatment than to be misrepresented just because you do not like some of my views.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[JimfromOhio]

It is God's will that all be saved.

Why isn't everyone saved.

Because it is for "whosoever will".

God made the new birth available to "whosoever will".

Whosoever will what? Whosoever will receive salvation.

Healing is the same. God made it available to who ever will receive it.

Same exact process as being saved is, which is by faith.
In the New Testament, God calls Church "mine elect" and chose those whoever responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. In Romans 9:19 says "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" When a person do NOT acknowledge the Holy Spirit, that is explained in Mark 3:29 "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." In Acts 7:51, "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"

It is God's GRACE that we are able to believe and be saved through the conviction of the Holy Spirit, not our own will. Jesus said in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

[Optimax]

Well, if you don’t know the answer to this, this is a hopeless discussion. God’s will is to save everybody but it is conditioned on them believing in Christ. when they do, they become believers and have eternal life. That’s what the Atonement is for.

Why then, if every believer is eternally saved, aren’t they also eternally healed, if it is all in the same Atonement? Are their two atonements? Is one a full atonement and the other partial?

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



Hear the answer this time.

Healing is available for everyone just as being saved is.

One is saved by faith if one decides to receive salvation. If they are unwilling(for whatever reason) to receive salvation the result is they are not saved.

One is healed by faith if one decides to receive healing. If they are unwilling(for whatever reason) to receive healing the result is they are not healed.

BOTH ARE AVAILABLE TO WHO EVER WILL RECEIVE.

[mont974x4]

Well, if you don’t know the answer to this, this is a hopeless discussion. God’s will is to save everybody but it is conditioned on them believing in Christ. when they do, they become believers and have eternal life. That’s what the Atonement is for.

Why then, if every believer is eternally saved, aren’t they also eternally healed, if it is all in the same Atonement? Are their two atonements? Is one a full atonement and the other partial?

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain




And of course the flipside to that....
if healing and salvation are both in the atonement, and people who reject Christ are not saved, then it would stand to reason that people who reject Him would not be healed either.

Of course, the reality of the situation is there are both saved and unsaved who are sick. There are both saved and unsaved who are healed.



The pivotal verse, that is used by WoFers and other faith healing proponents, that talks about being healed by His stripes is being misunderstood and misapplied by them. A few months ago I did a word study on the word "healed" from that verse. It talks of wholeness, as I said in another thread on this issue. I may have severe health issues, but I am whole in Christ. It is because of who I am in Him and with Him in me that I can say I am whole.

[mont974x4]

Hear the answer this time.

Healing is available for everyone just as being saved is.

One is saved by faith if one decides to receive salvation. If they are unwilling(for whatever reason) to receive salvation the result is they are not saved.

One is healed by faith if one decides to receive healing. If they are unwilling(for whatever reason) to receive healing the result is they are not healed.

BOTH ARE AVAILABLE TO WHO EVER WILL RECEIVE.


That's pretty presumptuous to say that they are unwilling to receive healing.


I'll have to ask my friend, who is an amputee, what he thinks of your theory. He's a godly and faithful man but God has not grown his legs back.

[JimfromOhio]

Hebrews 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

But you probably knew that already.
If you are talking about eternal salvation, God's promise is eternal because Christ is the mediator of the covenant, that we receive the promised eternal inheritance. Paul wrote, "For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come" (1Tim 4:8).

Since you were referring to Hebrews Chapter 6, let me go to Hebrews 11, Hebrews 11:39-40
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Faith is indeed the title deed for things hoped for. Saving faith is placed in something that was promised to happen. Faith is believing something that God promises will happen, not because we will it to happen, but because He PROMISED THEY will happen.

Now, the differences between you and I, you focus on temporal promises based on man's doctrine while I focus on God's eternal promises based on God's Word.

[JimfromOhio]

You have so much knowledge and gifting to offer us - I wish you would speak FOR what you believe instead of focusing on the few Word of Faith teachers that teach garbage.

In pointing out the few - you miss all the rest of us.


Well, I with Jim trying to sort out what's wrong with some of the doctrines. :wave:

[Tamara224]

Hear the answer this time.

Healing is available for everyone just as being saved is.

One is saved by faith if one decides to receive salvation. If they are unwilling(for whatever reason) to receive salvation the result is they are not saved.

One is healed by faith if one decides to receive healing. If they are unwilling(for whatever reason) to receive healing the result is they are not healed.

BOTH ARE AVAILABLE TO WHO EVER WILL RECEIVE.


Are they mutually exclusive or is one required for the other?

So, for example, can someone believe for healing but not for salvation? IOW, can an agnostic claim the promise of physical healing by believing that Jesus died on the cross in order to heal us, but not believe that Christ died to atone for sins?

It seems that, according to this doctrine, people can believe for salvation but not for healing.

So does it work the other way around too?

Or we have to apply Jesus' blood twice to get the full atonement?

Just trying to understand your position.

I'm with Jimbeaux on this... it seems to me that according to PHIA, anyone who accepts Jesus Christ should be immediately healed at the same time they are immediately saved.

What I'm saying is that that is the logical conclusion to the premise. I'm not saying anyone actually preaches that. But, hypothetically speaking, just because people choose not to take their idea to its ultimate logical conclusion, doesn't invalidate that conclusion. It just means the person probably doesn't like the conclusion but doesn't want to abandon the idea.

[JimfromOhio]

Hear the answer this time.

Healing is available for everyone just as being saved is.

One is saved by faith if one decides to receive salvation. If they are unwilling(for whatever reason) to receive salvation the result is they are not saved.

One is healed by faith if one decides to receive healing. If they are unwilling(for whatever reason) to receive healing the result is they are not healed.

BOTH ARE AVAILABLE TO WHO EVER WILL RECEIVE.

This is NOT about "unwilling" on a believer's part but knowing God and His Grace. This is not about faith in relation to "getting what you want" but faith in WHO and at HIS will. All have the same "will". The Holy Spirit is always interceding for us, always praying for us, always coming before the throne of God in perfect harmony with God's will. Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit