Is sickness suffering?

[Jimbeaux]

Is sickness suffering?

Some say it isn’t, only persecution is suffering. I say suffering is suffering is suffering. And that includes sickness …
News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed, and he healed them. (Matt. 4.24)

"Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering." (Matt. 8.6)

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." (Matt. 15.22)

Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water. (Matthew 17.15)

She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse.. . . and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering . . . He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering." (Mark 5.26, 29, 34)

Jesus left the synagogue and went to the home of Simon. Now Simon's mother-in-law was suffering from a high fever, and they asked Jesus to help her. (Luke 4.34)

There in front of him was a man suffering from dropsy. (Luke 14.2)
Sometimes I wonder where some beliefs that are posted in this forum come from. Apparently, not from the Bible.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Balance]

Sometimes I wonder where some beliefs that are posted in this forum come from. Apparently, not from the Bible.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain


This is the best reply I found:



Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue. (Prov. 17.28)

The prudent man keeps quiet in such times, for the times are evil. (Amos 5.3)
There were times when Christ Himself obeyed the wisdom of scripture to be silent (SEE HERE (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isa.%2053.7;%20Matt.%2026.62-63;%2027.14;%20Luke%2023.9;&version=31;)).

Our speech is supposed to edify others, not add to peoples' burdens.

~Jim

[victoryword]

Jim

Who on this forum says that sickness is not suffering? The question that you should have asked is "Is Sickness suffering for the Lord" or "Is sickness the kind of suffering we are called to?" Your question is a distortion of what is actually being said. It is nothing more than a prooftexted strawman.

Not one of those passages state that any of those people suffered sickness due to God's sovereign will and everyone of those passages you cited, when shown in context will show that Jesus healed each one and relieved them of their suffering.

Nice strawboy Jim, but it will not hold up. You have done nothing but prove that your side has no real Biblical argument.

[Jimbeaux]

Jim

Who on this forum says that sickness is not suffering? The question that you should have asked is "Is Sickness suffering for the Lord" or "Is sickness the kind of suffering we are called to?" Your question is a distortion of what is actually being said. It is nothing more than a prooftexted strawman.

Not one of those passages state that any of those people suffered sickness due to God's sovereign will and everyone of those passages you cited, when shown in context will show that Jesus healed each one and relieved them of their suffering.

Nice strawboy Jim, but it will not hold up. You have done nothing but prove that your side has no real Biblical argument.

You will have to speak for yourself, VW. If this does not apply to what you believe, great. But I think you told us you had been away from this forum for a while and so may not be privy to previous discussions about this subject and I am certainly not going to dig through previous threads to show you. Sorry.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[victoryword]

You will have to speak for yourself, VW. If this does not apply to what you believe, great. But I think you told us you had been away from this forum for a while and so may not be privy to previous discussions about this subject and I am certainly not going to dig through previous threads to show you. Sorry.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain




Why not just produce ONE post in which someone made the claim that sickness is not suffering.

[Faithful Love]

Why not just produce ONE post in which someone made the claim that sickness is not suffering.


Many have persecution for the Word's sake quite mixed up.

They firmly believe this persecution for the Word's sake includes sickness, disease and poverty - all of which Jesus already bore for us and we are to resist.

They do not want to change their minds.

[Tamara224]

Yes, sickness is suffering. It can even be suffering for Christ's sake. *Gasp*

[pinetree]

does anyone know,how old Joseph was when he died,and do we know how he died?

That could be interesting..:)

[Jimbeaux]

Why not just produce ONE post in which someone made the claim that sickness is not suffering.

Aren’t you listening? I do not want to take the time to catch you up on conversations you have not been in because you chose to stay away from this forum for a season. I do not have that kind of time or willingness, VW.

Why don’t you take the time show me where they haven’t said it?

See what I mean. :P

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[victoryword]

Aren’t you listening? I do not want to take the time to catch you up on conversations you have not been in because you chose to stay away from this forum for a season. I do not have that kind of time or willingness, VW.

Why don’t you take the time show me where they haven’t said it?

See what I mean. :P

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain




Jim

You are unbelievable. You claim that someone believes a certain way and you build a post refuting it. I ask you to prove it and you use LAZINESS as your defense and then ask me to prove that people did not say what you claim that they are saying. The burden of proof falls on you Jim since you make this accusation. The issue of credibility does not fall on me but on you sir.

Otherwise you have done nothing but guard the corn with yet another strawman that the crows use for resting.

[JimfromOhio]

Jim

Who on this forum says that sickness is not suffering? The question that you should have asked is "Is Sickness suffering for the Lord" or "Is sickness the kind of suffering we are called to?" Your question is a distortion of what is actually being said. It is nothing more than a prooftexted strawman.

Not one of those passages state that any of those people suffered sickness due to God's sovereign will and everyone of those passages you cited, when shown in context will show that Jesus healed each one and relieved them of their suffering.

Nice strawboy Jim, but it will not hold up. You have done nothing but prove that your side has no real Biblical argument.

Let's look at sickness, in the sense that all sickness is linked to sin, because if there were no sin, there would be no sickness. But it is wrong in assuming that a person became directly sick from being sinful. In John 9:2-3, Jesus and His disciples encountered a blind man. “His disciples asked Him, ‘Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?’ ‘Neither this man nor his parents sinned,’ said Jesus, ‘but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.” Satan sometimes causes illness (Job 2:7; Luke 13:16).

This SINFUL world do NOT discriminate between believers and unbelievers. Plane crashes, boat sinkings, train accidents, car collisions, heart disease, cancer doesn't discriminate between a sinner and a saint, or between a sinner and a sinner. People got sick, hurt, disabled and even DIED.

There was a man in the New Testament who was sick and DIED, he just happened to be Lazarus. Jesus said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified by it. (John 11:4)

Sometimes sickness is designed for the glory of God. Many people who are in the Word of faith-healing movement teaches that sickness is always a result of sin. That isn't always true. In John 9 and 11, sickness had nothing to do with sin. A disabled Christian believer can enrich in a Christian community, Christians with disabilities – especially those in positions of leadership can serve as God's best examples of His power being made perfect in weakness. The Bible also teaches us to bear the burdens of someone with a disability fulfils a command of scripture (Galatians 6:2). 2 Samuel 9:3-4 tells the story of David’s kindness to Mephibosheth, the lame son of Jonathan, modeling the way the church should minister. There are those who (especially WOF) says that Joni Tada's disability (illness) do NOT glorify God at all.

There are many who are born with illness or fell into illness in early live. There are others who got sick directly from sin as whether or not the a Christian understood how his/her sickness was related to his/her sin, as in the case of James 5:14-15, a Christian would and should know that there was sin in his/her life that needed to be dealt with. James explained in detailed instructions for those who are sick (astheneo) which is a word is often used in the New Testament of those who are spiritually weak or immature (Rom. 14:1,2; 1 Cor. 8:11,12).

Both sicknesses are called suffering no matter how you look at it. :doh:I take the Bible seriously and I agree that God hates suffering. Jesus spent much of His time relieving it during His three year ministry. Regarding doctrines of healing and suffering, the Bible does not teach that He will always physically, emotionally and mentally heal those who come to Him in faith. His sovereignty reserves the right to heal or not to heal as He sees fit (1 Peter 3:17, 1 Peter 4:19, 1 Thessalonians 5:18).

[Jimbeaux]

Jim

You are unbelievable. You claim that someone believes a certain way and you build a post refuting it. I ask you to prove it and you use LAZINESS as your defense and then ask me to prove that people did not say what you claim that they are saying. The burden of proof falls on you Jim since you make this accusation. The issue of credibility does not fall on me but on you sir.

Otherwise you have done nothing but guard the corn with yet another strawman that the crows use for resting.

Doing your work for you is laziness?!?

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[charityagape]

Of course you suffer when you're sick. Just cause you're suffering doesn't mean that God MADE you suffer and that He made you suffer for the sake of the Kingdom.

[JimfromOhio]

Of course you suffer when you're sick. Just cause you're suffering doesn't mean that God MADE you suffer and that He made you suffer for the sake of the Kingdom.

You don't know that biblically, only man's doctrines say that. :wave:

[charityagape]

You don't know that biblically, only man's doctrines say that. :wave:

:wave:Strike that, reverse it, and back at ya.;)

[JimfromOhio]

:wave:Strike that, reverse it, and back at ya.;)

Yes I do.

In 2 Corinthians 12:10 "That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." ?

Weaknesses: (From Strong's Greek #769) of strength, weakness, infirmity, of the body, its native weakness and frailty, feebleness of health or sickness, of the soul , want of strength and capacity requisite 1b, to understand a thing 1b, to do things great and glorious 1b, to restrain corrupt desires 1b, to bear trials and troubles

Insults: (From Strong's Greek #5196) insolence impudence, pride, haughtiness, a wrong springing from insolence, an injury, affront, insult, mental injury and wantonness of its infliction being prominent, injury inflicted by the violence of a tempest

Hardships: (From Strong's Greek #318) necessity, imposed either by the circumstances, or by law of duty regarding to one's advantage, custom, argument, calamity, distress, straits

Persecutions: (From Strong's Greek #1375) persecution

Difficulties: (From Strong's Greek #4730) narrowness of place, a narrow place, metaph. dire calamity, extreme affliction.

If you look at verse 9 leading up to verse 10..... God told Paul "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

Of course Word of Faith would ignore GRACE and selectively ignore some of the thorns. ;)

[dkbwarrior]

Is sickness suffering?

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." (Matt. 15.22)


One can certainly say that sickness is suffering. But is sickness a biblical definition of suffering for the Lord? And does the fact that the Bible calls sickness suffering prove that it therefor means suffering for the Lord?

I find it ironic that one of the scriptures that you quoted in your post to prove that sickness is suffering in the biblical sense, says that demon possession is suffering also.

Therefore, if the word suffering attached to something in the Bible automatically means that it is suffering for the Lord, then one would also have to infer that demon possession is suffering for the Lord.

Of course, rather than go there, you may want to let this one go.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

One can certainly say that sickness is suffering. But is sickness a biblical definition of suffering for the Lord? And does the fact that the Bible calls sickness suffering prove that it therefor means suffering for the Lord?

I find it ironic that one of the scriptures that you quoted in your post to prove that sickness is suffering in the biblical sense, says that demon possession is suffering also.

Therefore, if the word suffering attached to something in the Bible automatically means that it is suffering for the Lord, then one would also have to infer that demon possession is suffering for the Lord.

Of course, rather than go there, you may want to let this one go.

Peace...
1 Peter 2:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=2&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

Paul said in Romans 5:3-5 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us. James says count it all joy when you fall into various trials cause trials have a perfecting work. Peter says after you've suffered a while the Lord will make you perfect.

God uses suffering to reveal our spiritual condition.

[JimfromOhio]

I am sure they will be back tomorrow for another round. I am going to bed and REST my organs so I can be ready tomorrow night. :)

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Yes, sickness is suffering. It can even be suffering for Christ's sake. *Gasp*
Agreed. Anything that we must bear up under and don't get immediate relief from can constitute a "thorn in the flesh" and that gets borne for Christ's sake precisely because it provides a staging ground where He may consistently and continually, day by day, demonstrate His grace to be sufficient for us and His strength to be made perfect in our weakness. Paul says to glory in tribulations and trials AND AFFLICTIONS, i.e., infirmities. Take a look at the entire verse:

2 Corinthians 12:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=12&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Whatever afflicted Paul we know it to be something in his flesh, whether a physical ailment, a socio-emotional barb (he did call it a "messenger of Satan") or even a demon. It clearly afflicted him daily and created such suffering that he sought the Lord three times to be rid of it before being told outright, "No, Paul. But keep trusting in Me, because I will uphold you IN this."

[probinson]

Is sickness suffering?

Some say it isn’t, only persecution is suffering. I say suffering is suffering is suffering. And that includes sickness …
No one, but no one, has said that sickness isn't suffering. Ever. Period.

What has been said is that sickness is not the suffering that we are to endure for Christ's sake.

But you already knew that. :cool:

[probinson]

Jim

You are unbelievable. You claim that someone believes a certain way and you build a post refuting it. I ask you to prove it and you use LAZINESS as your defense and then ask me to prove that people did not say what you claim that they are saying. The burden of proof falls on you Jim since you make this accusation. The issue of credibility does not fall on me but on you sir.

Otherwise you have done nothing but guard the corn with yet another strawman that the crows use for resting.
vw, you haven't missed a thing. I've been here all along, and no one has EVER said that sickness is not suffering.

Jim knows this, and that's why he won't (can't) show you a link to a post where someone said this, because that post does not exist. ;)

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

hey probe how come you bes not on staffs anymore? :scratch:

[JimfromOhio]

No one, but no one, has said that sickness isn't suffering. Ever. Period.

What has been said is that sickness is not the suffering that we are to endure for Christ's sake.

But you already knew that. :cool:
For Christ's Sake....

Let's go further on that topic. We were saved for Christ's sake and not our sake, not matter what we go through in this early life. There are some wonderful side benefits to us, but the ultimate purpose was His glory. I believe you were referring to Philippians 1:29, "For you it has been granted for Christ's sake not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake." In God's GRACE, He granted us the privilege of believing for Christ's sake, for the glory of Christ, for the honor of Christ He allowed US to believe by the power of Grace. Going to 1 Corinthians where Paul wrote My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness. Most gladly therefore I will rather boast about my weaknesses that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties for Christ's sake, for when I am weak then I'm strong.

Let me repeat: 2 Corinthians 12:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=12&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Where is that Christ-centered faith that stands and holds its ground in the midst of hard trials (insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties for Christ's sake)? There is sort of fantasy faith, not affixed on Christ, but a sort of nebulous faith that wants to attach itself to miracles, healings, health, wealth, prosperity, comfort, personal gain.

Something's wrong when the doctrines are twisted.

[probinson]

hey probe how come you bes not on staffs anymore? :scratch:
I haven't been on staff for a few months now. I resigned.

I could tell you why, but then I'd have to kill you. :cool:

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Ahhhh you would not tellsy anyway, deadings or no deadings. :P

[Jimbeaux]

vw, you haven't missed a thing. I've been here all along, and no one has EVER said that sickness is not suffering.

Jim knows this, and that's why he won't (can't) show you a link to a post where someone said this, because that post does not exist. ;)
:confused:

This thread is a response to Balance’s thread, “Focusing on Health/Wealth or Suffering/Sickness Doctrine,”where he said otherwise, admitting there were extremes on both sides. Here is what B said in post #2, here (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7259100&highlight=suffering+doctrine&page=2), quote …
I personally think there's no such doctrine from either side. But there are a proportionate few from both sides that hold those teachings and others have labeled them doctrines.
I am agreeing with him.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[victoryword]

vw, you haven't missed a thing. I've been here all along, and no one has EVER said that sickness is not suffering.

Jim knows this, and that's why he won't (can't) show you a link to a post where someone said this, because that post does not exist. ;)

Thanks Pete. I already figured as much. The tactics of the anti-faith crusaders here leave much to be desired.

:confused:

This thread is a response to Balance’s thread, “Focusing on Health/Wealth or Suffering/Sickness Doctrine,”where he said otherwise, admitting there were extremes on both sides. Here is what B said in post #2, here (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7259100&highlight=suffering+doctrine&page=2), quote …
I personally think there's no such doctrine from either side. But there are a proportionate few from both sides that hold those teachings and others have labeled them doctrines.
I am agreeing with him.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.

~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain


Jim, if this is the only post you can find in which you claim that someone believes that sickness is not suffering then you have already lost the battle you started.

[pinetree]

Thanks Pete. I already figured as much. The tactics of the anti-faith crusaders here leave much to be desired.



Jim, if this is the only post you can find in which you claim that someone believes that sickness is not suffering then you have already lost the battle you started.
maybe if you guys preached real faith,that it comes through grace,you would not have opposition.;)
Alot of faith,but no grace,is works Christianity.



Romans 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=4&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.


Romans 12:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.


1 Timothy 1:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&verse=14&version=31&context=verse)
The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

Seems like very little mention of grace around here.See,these verses show how grace and faith,are together..

[Elijah2]

Hey Jimbo, these words are so true for the so-called medical practice of today:

She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse.. . . (Mark 5.26, 29, 34)

Actually, they also call themselves General Practioners. Yep they are still practicing, and we are still SUFFERING.;)

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

[dkbwarrior]

maybe if you guys preached real faith,that it comes through grace,you would not have opposition.;)


Right. No opposition like Jesus had no opposition, right?

And please tell me who said that faith doesn't come by way of grace?

The only person I have heard say that is you and Jim. No one from our side of the isle has said that. Faith is a free gift, just like salvation. It comes from hearing the Word. Of course it is grace.

Alot of faith,but no grace,is works Christianity.

Totally agree.

[JimfromOhio]

[/size]

Right. No opposition like Jesus had no opposition, right?

And please tell me who said that faith doesn't come by way of grace?

The only person I have heard say that is you and Jim. No one from our side of the isle has said that. Faith is a free gift, just like salvation. It comes from hearing the Word. Of course it is grace.



Totally agree.

Explain the power of Grace verses from Word of Faith's perspective so that I can understand how your faith really works. Is your faith's power comes from YOU or God's grace:

Romans 5:15
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. (i.e. works of faith)

Ephesians 3:7
I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of His power.

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

2 Corinthians 12:9
"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

PLEASE explain each verses how God's GRACE is not powerful enough for every believer as explained in Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with Him through your faith in the power of God (not ourselves), who raised Him from the dead. When you are filled with the Holy Spirit, then Jesus through His GRACE just flows out of you. In Corinthians, God gives us His GRACE to bear or endure which in greek, hupophero That it literally means to "get under it and carry it." Grace gets under us and carry our in ALL circumstances including those who are NOT HEALED.

[dkbwarrior]

Explain the power of Grace verses from Word of Faith's perspective so that I can understand how your faith really works. Is your faith's power comes from YOU or God's grace:

Romans 5:15
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. (i.e. works of faith)

Ephesians 3:7
I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of His power.

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

2 Corinthians 12:9
"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

PLEASE explain each verses how God's GRACE is not powerful enough for every believer as explained in Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with Him through your faith in the power of God (not ourselves), who raised Him from the dead. When you are filled with the Holy Spirit, then Jesus through His GRACE just flows out of you. In Corinthians, God gives us His GRACE to bear or endure which in greek, hupophero That it literally means to "get under it and carry it." Grace gets under us and carry our in ALL circumstances including those who are NOT HEALED.

As usual I have little clue what it is you are actually saying. Alot of your posts just appear to be words with no coherent message or reason to them.

Why would I want to explain why Gods grace is not powerful enough? Of course it is powerful enough. Why don't you explain why it isn't powerful enough? I happen to think it is, if you don't that is between you and God.

Unless you are claiming that Gods grace operates outside of faith. Grace operates through faith, not outside of it, and faith itself is a result of grace.

That would mean someone could be saved without believing, if grace operates independently from faith. No, grace operates in conjuction with faith. First it gives us the faith, then if responds to it. All we have to do is accept it.

It is possible to refuse the gift of faith by grace. The writer of hebrews tells us that:

1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
-Hebrews 4:1-2

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

As usual I have little clue what it is you are actually saying. Alot of your posts just appear to be words with no coherent message or reason to them.

Why would I want to explain why Gods grace is not powerful enough? Of course it is powerful enough. Why don't you explain why it isn't powerful enough? I happen to think it is, if you don't that is between you and God.

Unless you are claiming that Gods grace operates outside of faith. Grace operates through faith, not outside of it, and faith itself is a result of grace.

That would mean someone could be saved without believing, if grace operates independently from faith. No, grace operates in conjuction with faith. First it gives us the faith, then if responds to it. All we have to do is accept it.

It is possible to refuse the gift of faith by grace. The writer of hebrews tells us that:

1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
-Hebrews 4:1-2

Peace...

It appears that you can't explain how Word of Faith's perspective on Grace and "faith" applies in people's lives. If you don't know, just say so.

[Elijah2]

:idea::blush::o:confused::doh:

[Jimbeaux]

***** If you don't know, just say so.

^_^^_^^_^ This is unlikely.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[dkbwarrior]

It appears that you can't explain how Word of Faith's perspective on Grace and "faith" applies in people's lives. If you don't know, just say so.

I have absolutely no clue what it is that you are asking. If I did, I would certainly answer.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

I have absolutely no clue what it is that you are asking. If I did, I would certainly answer.

Peace...
Is it because you know more about faith than you know about grace?

[dkbwarrior]

Is it because you know more about faith than you know about grace?

Or it could be, well, nevermind! :)

I did the same thing in the previous post, a nice little quip about why you talk in circles to the point that most of us have no idea what it is that you are saying, but then deleted it before I posted it.

I figured I'd let you take the potshots instead.

It does more for my argument to be clear and unambiguous. My theology (though far from perfect I am sure) has the benefit of a consistent, logical, and Word based framework. Easy to understand and explain if one truly desires to know Truth, but hard to accept, because it goes against human nature and reasoning.

Your theology is inconsistent, illogical, and circumstance based, rather than Word based, and difficult to understand and explain, though easy to accept because it flows with human nature and reasoning.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

Or it could be, well, nevermind! :)

I did the same thing in the previous post, a nice little quip about why you talk in circles to the point that most of us have no idea what it is that you are saying, but then deleted it before I posted it.

I figured I'd let you take the potshots instead.

It does more for my argument to be clear and unambiguous. My theology (though far from perfect I am sure) has the benefit of a consistent, logical, and Word based framework. Easy to understand and explain if one truly desires to know Truth, but hard to accept, because it goes against human nature and reasoning.

Your theology is inconsistent, illogical, and circumstance based, rather than Word based, and difficult to understand and explain, though easy to accept because it flows with human nature and reasoning.

Peace...
We don't want to be guilty of "circular reasoning" for focusing on doctrines without grace. You do agree that faith without grace, faith is nothing. How can a person have strong faith without using grace?

We should all take a long hard look at what things we consider to be important from God's perspective rather than man's perspective.