Making a $10,000 Challenge?

[Balance]

.......................................................................................................

Is this good theological debate?

If it is, then I will issue my own $10,000 challenge -

Show me ONE, just one instance where someone came to Jesus and asked for healing and Jesus said NO, and the person was not healed.

[The Lord is my banner]

Much as I would be delighted to relieve you of $10,000, I am delighted to say that I know there's no chance of any of us winning it! :D

[Jimbeaux]

.......................................................................................................

Is this good theological debate?

If it is, then I will issue my own $10,000 challenge -

Show me ONE, just one instance where someone came to Jesus and asked for healing and Jesus said NO, and the person was not healed.



Okay.
1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 It was that Mary who anointed the Lord with fragrant oil and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. 3 Therefore the sisters sent to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.”
-----
6 So, when He heard that he was sick, He stayed two more days in the place where He was.
-----
11 He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead."
-----
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. (John 11)
Make the check (cashiers check, please) payable to “Jim Miller”. I can PM you my mailing address.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[map4]

Okay.
1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 It was that Mary who anointed the Lord with fragrant oil and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. 3 Therefore the sisters sent to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.”
-----
6 So, when He heard that he was sick, He stayed two more days in the place where He was.
-----
11 He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead."
-----
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
Make the check (cashiers check, please) payable to “Jim Miller”.

~Jim


If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



Is that the end of the story?

[Jimbeaux]

Is that the end of the story?

As far as to what the OP asked for it is.

We never know the “end of the story” when God tells us “No,” do we?

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[nephilimiyr]

Buzzzzz!!!, Wrong answer there Jimbeaux. No where in that story does it say anyone asked for healing. Jesus was simply notified that Lazarus was sick.

Besides, the story is about the most ultimate physical healing of being raised from the dead, so where you see Jesus not healing someone I see Jesus performing the greatest physical healing of all. :D

The only way anyone can come close to winning this challenge is if you quote Matthew 13:58.
Matthew 13:58, And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

The problem with this is that it is too vague. We don't know if anybody there asked for healing and Jesus denying them because of their lack of faith, the verse simply doesn't say.

[Balance]

Sorry Jim - there's no mention of Jesus saying no - and BTW - Laz was raised and healed - this failed the test - no check, no Chucky Cheese good theologians award either.

[Balance]

And anyways Jim - by the time Jesus heard about Laz's sickness - he was already dead.

Let's look at the time line here -

I'll put in days of the week to help demonstrate.

John 11:1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 It was that Mary who anointed the Lord with fragrant oil and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. 3 Therefore the sisters sent to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.” (Day ONE - let's say Monday)
4 When Jesus heard that, He said, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So, when He heard that he was sick, He stayed two more days in the place where He was. (Days TWO and THREE - Wednesday)
7 the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.”
8 The disciples said to Him, “Rabbi, lately the Jews sought to stone You, and are You going there again?”
9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. 10 Then after this He said to But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.”11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death,(Day THREE - Wednesday - Jesus knew he had died) but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”
16 Then Thomas, who is called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with Him.”
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. (That means Laz WAS buried four days earlier - on Sunday.

Sorry Jim - your assumption doesn't stand up to scripture. Laz was dead by the time Jesus got the message - that is why there was no rush - coupled that with Laz being raised and healed from the sickness that killed him disqualifies your answer.

[nephilimiyr]

Hi Balance :wave:

What is your opinion on the Matthew quote I posted?

[Jimbeaux]

Sorry Jim - there's no mention of Jesus saying no - and BTW - Laz was raised and healed - this failed the test - no check, no Chucky Cheese good theologians award either.

Oh, I see. I figured you would find some wiggle room. Your brand of theology always does.

So, Jesus had to actually verbalize the word “No” (or whatever the equivalent word is in Aramaic or Greek) before it counts? A person has to actually say the word “no” to really refuse someone something they ask for.

There’s more to language than just words, B.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[pinetree]

.......................................................................................................

Is this good theological debate?

If it is, then I will issue my own $10,000 challenge -

Show me ONE, just one instance where someone came to Jesus and asked for healing and Jesus said NO, and the person was not healed.



thats easy..:)

you dont think every sick saint across the globe has asked?

same children of God,same holy Spirit in them too..

is the gospel over,are you a cessationist?

you once quoted to me,Jesus said GO!..using that verse as an answer...

as far as today we should go!

same gospel,same disciples (us),same Lord today,as back then..

[Balance]

Oh, I see. I figured you would find some wiggle room. Your brand of theology always does.

Jesus had to actually verbalize the word “No” (or whatever the equivalent word is in Aramaic or Greek) before it counts. A person has to actually say the word “no” to really refuse someone something they ask for.

There’s more to language than just words, B.

~Jim



Why does your 'brand of theology' always feel the need to be condescending when confronted with the truth?

Was Laz alive when the word of his sickness got to Jesus - yes or no?

As for this:

A person has to actually say the word “no” to really refuse someone something they ask for.

A person comes and makes a verbal request - and you are going to refuse that verbal request -

How exactly would Jim Miller refuse that verbal request without saying no?

How exactly would you do that.

[nephilimiyr]

Oh, I see. But I figured you would find some wiggle room. Your brand of theology always does.
So then is it your brand of theology to assume things when it isn't written?

Again, there is no mention of anyone asking Jesus for healing, He was simply notified that Lazarus was sick. The challenge is about people specifically asking for healing and Jesus denying them. Even though Jesus wasn't asked to heal Lazarus He raised him from the dead anyhow.

[pinetree]

balance,please read post 11,and send me some money,you did not say there had to be a scriptural verse.

I think this shows a good point.

Balance,what would you say to those saints today,that DID ask..?

unless of course you are a cessationist.:D

The gospel continues..fair point?

so it looks like He must have said no,or something like that,or allows suffering..something along those lines anyway..

[Jimbeaux]

[/size][/font]
So then is it your brand of theology to assume things when it isn't written?

Again, there is no mention of anyone asking Jesus for healing, He was simply notified that Lazarus was sick. The challenge is about people specifically asking for healing and Jesus denying them. Even though Jesus wasn't asked to heal Lazarus He raised him from the dead anyhow.

So, Martha and Mary sent word to Jesus that Lazarus was sick (obviously terminally sick) just as a FYI. Martha’s words in vs.21—“Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died—tells us why they sent word to Jesus.

Jesus already knew Lazarus was sick and it was a sickness unto death because He said so. And He could have healed Lazarus at that very instant without ever having left where He was as He did in a couple of other instances.

But some in this forum want us to believe that because Martha and Mary--who were already deeply distressed--did not properly verbalize their desire they were denied what they wanted because Jesus had to have pictures drawn for Him or things spelled out before He could act. That sounds more like religion than grace to me.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Faithful Love]

James tells us "you have not because you ask not". I don't see any scriptural reference that M&M asked. Instead they fretted and moaned, wringing their hands, and 'sent word'. If they truly wanted Jesus to heal him, they could've asked in faith, knowing who Jesus was.

OP still boils down to: There is NO case of Jesus saying no.

He tells us how to receive YES answers to prayers, trouble is most people are so bound up in tradition and religion (and rebellion to the word) to pray the way He tells us to.

[mont974x4]

The request for healing is implied, otherwise the people would not have gone to Him.

he was not healed from his illness, he was allowed to die. He was healed from death, not the illness that killed him.


See, I can play word games too. Of course, when I read the OP, I expected nothing else.

[pinetree]

The request for healing is implied, otherwise the people would not have gone to Him.

he was not healed from his illness, he was allowed to die. He was healed from death, not the illness that killed him.


See, I can play word games too. Of course, when I read the OP, I expected nothing else.
good point,going to Him is a form of asking..:thumbsup:

[~RENEE~]

thats easy..:)

you dont think every sick saint across the globe has asked?

same children of God,same holy Spirit in them too..

is the gospel over,are you a cessationist?

you once quoted to me,Jesus said GO!..using that verse as an answer...

as far as today we should go!
I got this one for ya B. NOpe. Because God has NEVER said no me. He says yes. But I have an enemy of my soul that is still fighting to keep me disabled. Why? Because he hates everything that God loves.

So this don't work pineanator

[pinetree]

I got this one for ya B. NOpe. Because God has NEVER said no me. He says yes. But I have an enemy of my soul that is still fighting to keep me disabled. Why? Because he hates everything that God loves.

So this don't work pineanator
Hi Renee,that is great that God has never said no to you.And that is true many people are standing on what God has said to them, waiting for their healing.

Just so you know, I don't mean to discourage anyone who is waiting in faith for their healing. I think your a fine example of someone holding steadfast to what God has said.:thumbsup:

But I don't think God wants us feeling guilty and that it is our fault if we are not healed yet. Maybe you don't feel guilt or burdened, but many do. I think, like the woman with the issue of blood, she heard the report about Jesus, and it seems she had simple child like faith. I think some make faith into a complex confusing issue, when Jesus said to become like little children.

your buddy pineanator:D

[map4]

Jesus already knew Lazarus was sick and it was a sickness unto death because He said so. And He could have healed Lazarus at that very instant without ever having left where He was as He did in a couple of other instances.


~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain





John 11:4
When Jesus heard that, He said, "This sickness is NOT unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it"

Is that the scripture you are talking about?? Or did I miss one?

He planned on raising Lazarus all along...He knew Lazarus would die...is that why He said that?
_________________________________

Are we missing the whole point of the death and resurrection of Lazarus??

Some sound like those in John 11:37 -
And some of them said, "Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying?"


Of course He could have...but that was not the plan...Lazarus died so he could be raised again.

But, I think everyone here already knows that.

Which makes the argument that Jesus said "no" to Lazarus even more a mute point, imo.
When you know why he was allowed to die in the first place.

[Jimbeaux]

The request for healing is implied, otherwise the people would not have gone to Him.

he was not healed from his illness, he was allowed to die. He was healed from death, not the illness that killed him.


See, I can play word games too. Of course, when I read the OP, I expected nothing else.

You can be healed of death? Is resurrection a healing? Are we saved because we believe Christ was healed rather than resurrected?

I am going to have to find one of your dictionaries.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[pinetree]

The request for healing is implied, otherwise the people would not have gone to Him.

he was not healed from his illness, he was allowed to die. He was healed from death, not the illness that killed him.


See, I can play word games too. Of course, when I read the OP, I expected nothing else.
sorry, but,aren't you implying that they did ask?
maybe in my prvious reply i misunderstood your point.:)
where you respondidng to where balance asked,where any told no?

[Jimbeaux]

Let me see if I got this straight. Christ knew beforehand of Lazarus’ sickness and knew it was terminal. Even with this knowledge, He waited until He was “asked” before He would respond to their need. When He was finally “asked” He still did not respond because they failed to hold their mouth right and say, “come and heal our brother,” even though He knew what their request was. So He let Lazarus die to teach his already grief-stricken sisters a lesson about holding their mouths right.

If that is true, then Christianity is more works and religion—saying and doing the right thing to earn God’s grace—than it simply is grace in itself.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[pinetree]

Let me see if I got this straight. Christ knew beforehand of Lazarus’ sickness and knew it was terminal. Even with this knowledge, He waited until He was “asked” before He would respond to their need. When He was finally “asked” He still did not respond because they failed to hold their mouth right and say, “come and heal our brother,” even though He knew what their request was. So He let Lazarus die to teach his already grief-stricken sisters a lesson about holding their mouths right.

If that is true, then Christianity is more works and religion—saying and doing the right thing to earn God’s grace—than it simply is grace in itself.

~Jim


If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

gotcha.i think I misunderstood the point mont974x4 was making..

[Jimbeaux]

gotcha.i think I misunderstood the point mont974x4 was making..

^_^ I was making a general observation, PT..

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[mont974x4]

You can be healed of death? Is resurrection a healing? Are we saved because we believe Christ was healed rather than resurrected?

I am going to have to find one of your dictionaries.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain




Sorry, poor word choice on my part.

[Tamara224]

Let me see if I got this straight. Christ knew beforehand of Lazarus’ sickness and knew it was terminal. Even with this knowledge, He waited until He was “asked” before He would respond to their need. When He was finally “asked” He still did not respond because they failed to hold their mouth right and say, “come and heal our brother,” even though He knew what their request was. So He let Lazarus die to teach his already grief-stricken sisters a lesson about holding their mouths right.

If that is true, then Christianity is more works and religion—saying and doing the right thing to earn God’s grace—than it simply is grace in itself.

~Jim


If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



QFT.


Also... I may have missed it, but.... No one every specifically asked Jesus to raise Lazarus from the dead.

So... I guess that Jesus has to be asked specifically, with the correct words (mantra, if you will) in order to be able to heal someone. But that's not necessary to bring someone back to life. :scratch:

This theology gets more and more convoluted every minute.

[mont974x4]

sorry, but,aren't you implying that they did ask?
maybe in my prvious reply i misunderstood your point.:)
where you respondidng to where balance asked,where any told no?


I was responding to whoever said they didn't ask. IMO, by simply going to Christ they were asking.



unsubscribing as I shouldn't have let myself get baited into this thread which was obviously started with the agenda of proving a point.

I leave on the thread on this note. While God does continue to heal people in this life, and we are all promised healing, we are not promised that healing in this life. No matter how faithful and God fearing a person is we will all suffer the occassional illness and we will die. It is a simple fact of living in this fallen world. The word "healed" in the verse about being healed by His stripes deals with being made whole. Despite the health issues that I am not yet healed from I am whole in Him. Where I am weak He is strong and His grace is sufficient.

[Jimbeaux]

*****

This theology gets more and more convoluted every minute.

You can’t see a virus until you put it under a microscope.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Balance]

balance,please read post 11,and send me some money,you did not say there had to be a scriptural verse.

I think this shows a good point.

Balance,what would you say to those saints today,that DID ask..?

unless of course you are a cessationist.:D

The gospel continues..fair point?

so it looks like He must have said no,or something like that,or allows suffering..something along those lines anyway..

Your post is a mute point unless you think that you are personally speaking for Jesus.

The Word - that's what we are speaking about - not your opinion or what your aunt Nellie experienced - the Word.

[Balance]

And anyways Jim - by the time Jesus heard about Laz's sickness - he was already dead.

Let's look at the time line here -

I'll put in days of the week to help demonstrate.

John 11:1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 It was that Mary who anointed the Lord with fragrant oil and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. 3 Therefore the sisters sent to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.” (Day ONE - let's say Monday)
4 When Jesus heard that, He said, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So, when He heard that he was sick, He stayed two more days in the place where He was. (Days TWO and THREE - Wednesday)
7 the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.”
8 The disciples said to Him, “Rabbi, lately the Jews sought to stone You, and are You going there again?”
9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. 10 Then after this He said to But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.”11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death,(Day THREE - Wednesday - Jesus knew he had died) but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”
16 Then Thomas, who is called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with Him.”
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. (That means Laz WAS buried four days earlier - on Sunday.

Sorry Jim - your assumption doesn't stand up to scripture. Laz was dead by the time Jesus got the message - that is why there was no rush - coupled that with Laz being raised and healed from the sickness that killed him disqualifies your answer.




Do you plan on addressing this - or just continue to try ignored it?

[Tamara224]

Your post is a mute point unless you think that you are personally speaking for Jesus.


[Pedant alert]

It's MOOT, not mute.

A mute is someone who cannot speak.

Moot means obsolete or no longer important.

[/Pedant alert]

Carry on.:wave:

[The Lord is my banner]

Hey Tamara! Good work! :D

[Faithful Love]

Not sure why so many here don't believe the Word when they read it. It is not bizarre doctrine, it is reading the Word and believing it means what it says.

Takes a lot of twisting to make it say you don't have to ask or that He says no or that we don't have a part to play. :doh:

Here's just a few.


Matt 7:7
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matt 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Matt 18:19
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Matt 21:22
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

John 11:22
But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give [it] thee.

John 16:23
Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you.



James 1:5 makes it clear God does not give wisdom unless you ask:
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

James 1:6
But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.


1 John 3:22 further instructs there are conditions to our asking - but too many here call it "works"... no, it is not works, it is the Word.

And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

[Jimbeaux]

Do you plan on addressing this - or just continue to try ignored it?





I thought I did, but since you do not bother to read all my posts I will recap:


Let me see if I got this straight. Christ knew beforehand of Lazarus’ sickness and knew it was terminal. Even with this knowledge, He waited until He was “asked” before He would respond to their need. When He was finally “asked” He still did not respond because they failed to hold their mouth right and say, “come and heal our brother,” even though He knew what their request was. So He let Lazarus die to teach his already grief-stricken sisters a lesson about holding their mouths right.

If that is true, then Christianity is more works and religion—saying and doing the right thing to earn God’s grace—than it simply is grace in itself.

~Jim




~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Optimax]

Let me see if I got this straight. Christ knew beforehand of Lazarus’ sickness and knew it was terminal. Even with this knowledge, He waited until He was “asked” before He would respond to their need. When He was finally “asked” He still did not respond because they failed to hold their mouth right and say, “come and heal our brother,” even though He knew what their request was. So He let Lazarus die to teach his already grief-stricken sisters a lesson about holding their mouths right.

If that is true, then Christianity is more works and religion—saying and doing the right thing to earn God’s grace—than it simply is grace in itself.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



Consider these instances in which Jesus was passing by.

Jesus did not stop until someone "ask". In fact he would have passed them by had they not.

Asking is good!

Mk 6:48-50

48 And he saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them: and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them.

49 But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out:

50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid.
KJV

Mt 20:30-32

30 And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by , cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou Son of David.

31 And the multitude rebuked them, because they should hold their peace: but they cried the more, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou Son of David.

32 And Jesus stood still, and called them, and said, What will ye that I shall do unto you?
KJV

[Balance]

I thought I did, but since you do not bother to read all my posts I will recap:





~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain


That's not an answer to the question because:

It doesn't address the fact that Laz was dead by the time Jesus was told he was sick.

Care to address this specifically and not the rabbit trail you are currently on.

[Balance]

Here - I'll post it a third time:

And anyways Jim - by the time Jesus heard about Laz's sickness - he was already dead.

Let's look at the time line here -

I'll put in days of the week to help demonstrate.

John 11:1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 It was that Mary who anointed the Lord with fragrant oil and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. 3 Therefore the sisters sent to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.” (Day ONE - let's say Monday)
4 When Jesus heard that, He said, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So, when He heard that he was sick, He stayed two more days in the place where He was. (Days TWO and THREE - Wednesday)
7 the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.”
8 The disciples said to Him, “Rabbi, lately the Jews sought to stone You, and are You going there again?”
9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. 10 Then after this He said to But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.”11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death,(Day THREE - Wednesday - Jesus knew he had died) but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”
16 Then Thomas, who is called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with Him.”
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days.(That means Laz WAS buried four days earlier - on Sunday.

Sorry Jim - your assumption doesn't stand up to scripture. Laz was dead by the time Jesus got the message - that is why there was no rush - coupled that with Laz being raised and healed from the sickness that killed him disqualifies your answer.

Emphasis in red to help focus on what I am specifically addressing.

Getting it? In the three days that Jesus got the message and waited two days, Laz died, was morned (traditionally 3 days) and in the grave for four days. If Jesus had left immediately, he would have arrived two days earlier and Laz would have been buried for two days instead of four.

[Balance]

My offer still stands



Beuler?
Beuler?

[The Lord is my banner]

Balance, I'm confused about the days and how you say Lazarus died the day before (Sunday) the sisters sent for Jesus to come (Monday.)
Sorry, I'm not getting something here... :confused:

[The Lord is my banner]

(But don't do it in red - reminds me of my maths teacher yelling at me!!!)

[Balance]

Balance, I'm confused about the days and how you say Lazarus died the day before (Sunday) the sisters sent for Jesus to come (Monday.)
Sorry, I'm not getting something here... :confused:

I'm trying to show what scripture is saying here.

Mary and Martha send a messenger to Jesus because Lazarus is sick. So when the messenger left, Lazarus was alive (or else they would said that he died - logical, right).

The messenger travels from Lazarus' home to where Jesus was and tells Jesus that Lazarus is sick.

That is the first day. (Monday)

I'm using days of the week to help clarify, so let's put a date with it just to further help.

For examples sake:

The messenger get's to Jesus and gives him the message.

Day One - July 1

Jesus waits for two before heading towards Lazarus' home, that means He left on day 3

Day 3 - July 3

When He arrives at Lazarus' home, Lazarus has been buried four four days.

Four days earlier - June 30

Jesus did not know of Lazarus' sickness until the day after Lazarus died. So how could He do anything other than raise him from the dead?

[Tamara224]

Here - I'll post it a third time:



Emphasis in red to help focus on what I am specifically addressing.

Getting it? In the three days that Jesus got the message and waited two days, Laz died, was morned (traditionally 3 days) and in the grave for four days. If Jesus had left immediately, he would have arrived two days earlier and Laz would have been buried for two days instead of four.





:scratch: So the sisters told Jesus Lazarus was sick when he was actually already dead?

Why didn't they just say "Lazarus died this morning"?


IMO, your timeline is mostly speculation and built on several assumptions.

You don't take into account travel time.

When Martha said Laz had been dead for four days, did she mean 96 hours? Or did she mean approximately four days? Four days and four nights? Or four days and three nights? Was she rounding up or down?

What time of day (or night) was it when Jesus raised Laz from the dead?

What time of day (or night) did he die?

What time of day (or night) did they bury him?

Did Jesus travel at night to get back to Judea? Or only during the day? How long did it take him to travel? A day? A day and a half? Two days?

Can we be sure that part of this story didn't take place on the Sabbath which would have prevented travel?




If we want to play with the numbers we can come up with a scenario where Laz was alive the moment Jesus got word of his sickness, died 20 minutes later, was buried three hours after that and in the grave for four days by the time Jesus got there.

Your timeline proves nothing except what you want to believe.

[Andry]

nm

[Jimbeaux]

That's not an answer to the question because:

It doesn't address the fact that Laz was dead by the time Jesus was told he was sick.

Care to address this specifically and not the rabbit trail you are currently on.


^_^ I (and Tamara) have answered it, B, and I am not going to follow your badger trail.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Jimbeaux]

Not sure why so many here don't believe the Word when they read it. It is not bizarre doctrine, it is reading the Word and believing it means what it says.

Takes a lot of twisting to make it say you don't have to ask or that He says no or that we don't have a part to play. :doh:

Here's just a few.


Matt 7:7
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matt 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Matt 18:19
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Matt 21:22
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

John 11:22
But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give thee.

John 16:23
Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you.



James 1:5 makes it clear God does not give wisdom unless you ask:
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

James 1:6
But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.


1 John 3:22 further instructs there are conditions to our asking - but too many here call it "works"... no, it is not works, it is the Word.

And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Why didn’t Jesus just heal everybody in Judea and Galilee? There are some things that is beyond our understnading. God has not obligated Himself to tell us why He does anything He does. We do not have to know it all.

Maybe this is a clue: 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel (John 5).

It had little to do with “asking”. Anyhow, how could a deaf-mute (not moot) ask for anything?
~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. [I]~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Balance]

^_^ I (and Tamara) have answered it, B, and I am not going to follow your badger trail.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



Well, that's not surprising.


At least now we can get back on topic.

[Jimbeaux]

Consider these instances in which Jesus was passing by.

Jesus did not stop until someone "ask". In fact he would have passed them by had they not.

Asking is good!

Mk 6:48-50

48 And he saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them: and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them.

49 But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out:

50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid.
KJV

Mt 20:30-32

30 And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by , cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou Son of David.

31 And the multitude rebuked them, because they should hold their peace: but they cried the more, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou Son of David.

32 And Jesus stood still, and called them, and said, What will ye that I shall do unto you?
KJV

Why didn’t Jesus just heal everybody in Judea and Galilee?

Maybe this is a clue: 19</SPAN> Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel (John 5).

See previous post, above.

[GrapeGirl]

Dude you got $10,000 to blow and you're gonna waste it on a thread on Christian Forums to prove a point?????????

[~RENEE~]

Dude you got $10,000 to blow and you're gonna waste it on a thread on Christian Forums to prove a point????????? Really! I need eyeglasses and to pay off all my bills. Plus I'll have enough left over for a deposit on an apartment.

I accept pay pal B.

[JimfromOhio]

This is silly, all of the New Testament writers are very concerned about people who may be self-deceived as to their faith and made sure that "faith" is really understood. Biblically, "Faith", (mostly in the book of James), without a corresponding change of life, without a transformation, without a product has no evidence and therefore is not real. "Be ye doers of the Word," that means whatever has happened in your life produces obedience to Scripture, "and not just hearers deceiving your ownselves." In other words, don't be under the illusion that because you hear truth and your mind affirms truth that that is enough. Faith is invisible because this is between a believer and God. True saving faith is not dependent on positive circumstances but negative circumstances as well. The Old Testament great faiths reacted in Faith of God's commands by responding to Him. I have learned that saving faith is not a system or method but rather how I respond myself to God.

Grace is power, therefore faith accordance to Word of Faith's merit faith methods are without grace is without real power. There is so much focus on the merit of faith but not enough of grace of faith. God didn't give us the burden to work on our faith but rather to focus on HIM as we grow in faith in HIS GRACE. Through God's GRACE, Jesus is the Great Deliverer, through whom we have victory over sin, death and hell. In Christ we have all the power we will ever need. When you are filled with the Holy Spirit, then Jesus through His GRACE just flows out of you because if you DON'T, trying to do the Lord's work in your own strength is the most confusing, exhausting, and tedious of all work.

Through God's grace, when we have been convicted by the Holy Spirit to put our faith in Jesus Christ, righteousness is imputed to us, that is it is deposited into us automatically without having to work for it. Weu don't earn this from merit because we receive it as a gift from God. That's the marvel of salvation by grace through faith. His sovereign grace deposits in our account the very righteousness which He possesses and we stand right with Him. He dispenses that grace to us. We respond in believing faith to that sovereign grace and we're saved. No works involved. One of the examples is in Galatians 2:9, Paul wrote "...and recognizing the grace that had been given to me".

In Ephesians 3:2 "if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you;" and in verse 7, "of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power." Paul said, "...the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2 Cor 4:18). We are to be focused on the things we cannot see. The issue is that we cannot have faith in something we can see and touch. Why? Because we know that it is a reality. Faith means believing what God says despite the fact that we cannot see Him, touch Him, or hear Him. When we walk by faith and not by sight, we will mature into the type of Christians God intends us to be. (See also 2 Cor 5, Rom 8: 18, Rom 8:38)

I have said what I wanted to say about faith and grace. People can choose to be selective in their beliefs, so be it. That's between them and God. :)

[pinetree]

Your post is a mute point unless you think that you are personally speaking for Jesus.

The Word - that's what we are speaking about - not your opinion or what your aunt Nellie experienced - the Word.



how did you know I had an aunt nellie?:)

[pinetree]

[Pedant alert]

It's MOOT, not mute.

A mute is someone who cannot speak.

Moot means obsolete or no longer important.

[/Pedant alert]

Carry on.:wave:
:) as much as I would love to tease balance here.I wont,my spelling can make spellcheck crash!:D

[The Lord is my banner]

Well, that's not surprising.


At least now we can get back on topic.


:) as much as I would love to tease balance here.I wont,my spelling can make spellcheck crash!:D


Your punctuation isn't much better LOL! ;)

[pinetree]

Your punctuation isn't much better LOL! ;)
:blush::blush:

[Balance]

Well, I'm off to bed reassured that my 10g's are safe and sound.

[pinetree]

Well, I'm off to bed reassured that my 10g's are safe and sound.
mine too..
nighty night..:)

[nephilimiyr]

So, Martha and Mary sent word to Jesus that Lazarus was sick (obviously terminally sick) just as a FYI. Martha’s words in vs.21—“Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died—tells us why they sent word to Jesus.
So basically the answer to my question of you is, yes I get to assume things when it is not written; and I'm sure the assumtions you make are made to fit your theology, I would presume so anyway ;)

There is nothing in the story that tells us that Mary or Martha requested Jesus to heal Lazarus. It's specfically worded so that the idea is that their message was to simply notify Jesus of what was happening with Lazarus. Since you now want me to assume the reason for this, ok, I'll try. Perhaps they're basically bringing it to Jesus' attention that there mighjt be a problem Jesus might want to consider coming back and taking care of. There is absolutely no reason why anybody should believe that Mary or Martha thought this was a life or death situation. The message was that he was sick, not that he was dieing, this makes a big difference. They might not have even known there was any reason to ask Jesus for a miraculous healing. For all they knew Lazarus could very well possibly snap out of it naturally. That's why the lack of urgency in the message to Jesus. Just simply a 'Hey Jesus, Lazarus is sick' . No, "Come quickly as you can Jesus, Lazarus is dieing!!!' They probably didn't know what to do and that is the reason for the message. They might have though, 'He'll know what to do, we wont even have to ask.'


Jesus already knew Lazarus was sick and it was a sickness unto death because He said so. And He could have healed Lazarus at that very instant without ever having left where He was as He did in a couple of other instances.
That's not the point. The point is nobody asked him to heal Lazarus. Lazarus didn't ask for the healing and nor did Mary or Martha. You can assume all you want but Mary and Martha did not ask Jesus to heal Lazarus.

If I assume like you have, Jesus however still decided to heal the man, after death, what's the problem? You're saying Jesus denied the request for Him to heal Lazarus yet Lazarus is raised from the dead. How is this not Jesus healing him? Lazarus recieved the ultimate physical healing, he was raised from the dead. How is that considered a denial of a request to heal?


But some in this forum want us to believe that because Martha and Mary--who were already deeply distressed--
By the evidence of the story, Mary and Martha were only deeply distressed after Lazarus had died.

did not properly verbalize their desire they were denied what they wanted because Jesus had to have pictures drawn for Him or things spelled out before He could act. That sounds more like religion than grace to me.
If you want to assume wrongly about things, like I believe you have, I guess I can then see your point.

[nephilimiyr]

James tells us "you have not because you ask not". I don't see any scriptural reference that M&M asked. Instead they fretted and moaned, wringing their hands, and 'sent word'. If they truly wanted Jesus to heal him, they could've asked in faith, knowing who Jesus was.
Interesting speculative thought, instead of Mary and Martha asking, they were complaining. This could be possible...


OP still boils down to: There is NO case of Jesus saying no.

I was thinking about this last night and the story of the Syrophoenician woman came to mind. The answer to this challenge is that yes, Jesus did deny healings but still performed the healing after the person making the request had showed great faith, and or, gave the right answer.

Mark 7:26-29, The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter. First let the children eat all they want, he told her, for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs. Yes, Lord, she replied, but even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs. Then he told her, For such a reply, you may go; the demon has left your daughter.

As you can see, at first, Jesus did deny her request, or at least told her to wait until it was time. Yet as she showed Him what kind of faith she had, He by passed the wait and healed her daughter on the spot. An amazing story!

[nephilimiyr]

So... I guess that Jesus has to be asked specifically, with the correct words (mantra, if you will) in order to be able to heal someone. But that's not necessary to bring someone back to life. :scratch:
In Matthew we read Jesus telling us of things we are not to worry about, or things we shouldn't ever have to ask for; clothes, food, drink. If we seek the Kingdom of God all these things will be given without worrying or asking. "All these things" do not include raising from the dead or healing of sickness. If you want or need a healing or for someone to be raised from the dead you are to make your requests known to God.

OPPS, I accidently editted this post...

[nephilimiyr]

I was responding to whoever said they didn't ask. IMO, by simply going to Christ they were asking.
IMO I strongly disagree with you. I often go to God with things, not even half of those things are requests.

Many people in Jesus day went to Him without requests. I don't see why we have to automatically see going to God with something as being a request. And of course, if the only reason you ever go to God is to request something from Him, then I think your relationship with Him is a little one sided, don't you think?

[Jimbeaux]

*****
There is nothing in the story that tells us that Mary or Martha requested Jesus to heal Lazarus. It's specfically worded so that the idea is that their message was to simply notify Jesus of what was happening with Lazarus.
*****

:eek:

Oh, yes there is:

Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.” John 11.21

So, what do you think that tells us about why they sent for Jesus?

Why would you, if you knew He could heal the sick, have sent for Him if you had a seriously sick relative? Just to send him a FYI? Or do you think you have to draw Jesus a picture of what you are needing when you tell Him your brother is sick? The Lord was smart enough to know what their need was. The Lord knows the things we have need of before we ask Him (Matt. 6.8).

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[BenAdam]

:eek:

Oh, yes there is:

Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.” John 11.21

So, why do you think they sent for Jesus?

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain




They were low on wine?

[Jimbeaux]

*****

I honest can't understand how you came to this deduction.


*****

She’s not the only one. It's where flawed logic leads.

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[nephilimiyr]

:eek:

Oh, yes there is:

Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.” John 11.21

So, what do you think that tells us about why they sent for Jesus?

Why would you, if you knew He could heal the sick, have sent for Him if you had a seriously sick relative? Just to send him a FYI? Or do you think you have to draw Jesus a picture of what you are needing when you tell Him your brother is sick? The Lord was smart enough to know what their need was. The Lord knows the things we have need of before we ask Him (Matt. 6.8).


Hi Jim :wave: Where I am coming from I don't see them sending for Jesus, that is not written in the text nor do I see it implied. The text reads that they sent word to Him, nothing more, nothing less.

I think it's odvious enough that both Mary and Martha wanted Jesus to come but wanting Jesus to come and asking Him to do so are two different things. One of the reasons why I see this the way I do is because of verses 8 and 16.

John 11:8, But Rabbi, they said, a short while ago the Jews tried to stone you, and yet you are going back there?

11:16, Then Thomas (called Didymus) said to the rest of the disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.

I think it's odvious that the reality of the situation was that if Jesus traveled back to Judea he would be entering into a very dangerous situation where men were seeking to kill him. In verse 16 doubting Thomas makes it clear that they believed Jesus would surely die and that they would go and die with Him. They were going with Him to Judea with the belief that they all were going to die.


Mary, Martha, and Lazarus were very close to Jesus so I don't think it out of the realm of possibility that they knew Jesus and his disciples would be putting themselves in grave danger by coming to Lazarus' side in Bethany. This is why I believe they didn't ask Jesus but simply let him know what was happening to Lazarus. They informed him of the situation to let Him decide what He was going to do about it. They may have desparitly wanted Jesus to come but they didn't ask Him to. The text says they simply sent word to Jesus and that's all I see them doing. There is no reason to see it any other way, unless your theology dictates that you should or have to.


Haven't you ever fell short of asking someone to do something you know would be above and beyond what is expected of them or worse, might put them in danger? I don't think I have ever asked someone to do something for me that might put them in grave danger but I can imagine the reasons why I might need to. The point is, neither Mary nor Martha wanted to put Jesus in that situation by asking Him to come. Perhaps they had thoughts of Jesus coming to Bethany to heal Lazarus and at the same time getting stoned to death, and all because of their request for Him to come. They might have thought or felt responsible for His death if something like that would happen, and given the situation that I'm sure they knew about, that was something that was very likely to happen. So they let Him decide on His own what to do, and with the hope He would come, and in the end Jesus did come and healed Lazarus.

"Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died." Mary clearly believed that Jesus had to be there but this is not evidence that therefore she did ask for Him to come. Another poster made the comment that he thought this was Mary complaining about Jesus not coming when He was asked to. I reject this as there is no indication for this. We read that she was mournful and weeping when she made this statement. All I can gather from this is that she was very distrought with grief and simply making a statment of fact, or faith. There is no evidence that she said this in anger, an emotion that given the circumstances might be seen as perfectly understandable but only if you believe that Jesus was asked to come but refused. She did believe Jesus could have prevented Lazarus' death, she's stateing her faith with that remark, nothing more and nothing less. She seems more like a person hurt over the unfortunate circumstances that have led to the death of her brother.

[nephilimiyr]

They were low on wine?
There is no evidence that Mary or Martha requested anything Ben, wine or healing. ;)

[nephilimiyr]

She’s not the only one. It's where flawed logic leads.

I'd appreciate it if you would at least hear me out before you judge what my theolgy is or the logic I use. Fair enough? I'm more than sure you appreciate it when people do the same with you.

[nephilimiyr]

So... I guess that Jesus has to be asked specifically, with the correct words (mantra, if you will) in order to be able to heal someone. But that's not necessary to bring someone back to life. :scratch:.
In Matthew we read Jesus telling us of things we are not to worry about, or things we shouldn't ever have to ask for; clothes, food, drink. If we seek the Kingdom of God all these things will be given without worrying or asking. "All these things" do not include raising from the dead or healing of sickness. If you want or need a healing or for someone to be raised from the dead you are to make your requests known to God.

[probinson]

This theology gets more and more convoluted every minute.
Only when you put your spin on it. ;)

[probinson]

Since we all seem to be hung up on Lazarus, let's take a look at the story a bit more closely.

Jesus arrives on the scene. The very first thing that Martha says to Him is this;John 11:21-22 (AMP)
21 Martha then said to Jesus, Master, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 And even now I know that whatever You ask from God, He will grant it to You.I suppose you could look at this different ways, but essentially, Martha is doing what we've all done at some point, and that is blaming Jesus for her sorrow.

In any event, she tells Jesus that "if You had been here", or IOW, Martha's belief was that it was necessary for Jesus to be present to heal Lazarus. She also professes that no matter what Jesus asks from God, God would grant it to Him.

So then Jesus says this;John 11:23 (AMP)
Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again.
Now you'd think that this would get her excited, since she just professed that no matter what Jesus asked of God, He would grant Him. But instead, she responds like most of the church today;John 11:24 (AMP)
Martha replied, I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
So Jesus is trying to get through to her that He is talking about NOW, and instead, she takes the "some day in the great by and by" approach that is so prevalent among many Christians today. So Jesus responds by saying this;John 11:25-26 (AMP)
25 Jesus said to her, I am [Myself] the Resurrection and the Life. Whoever believes in (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on) Me, although he may die, yet he shall live; 26 And whoever continues to live and believes in (has faith in, cleaves to, and relies on) Me shall never [actually] die at all. Do you believe this?
Jesus is asking her if she believes this. And this is how she responds;John 11:27 (AMP)
She said to Him, Yes, Lord, I have believed [I do believe] that You are the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One), the Son of God, [even He] Who was to come into the world. [It is for Your coming that the world has waited.]
So here, Martha is professing her faith in Christ. And then she goes to get Mary. Mary says the same thing Martha said;John 11:32 (AMP)
When Mary came to the place where Jesus was and saw Him, she dropped down at His feet, saying to Him, Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
So apparently, Martha and Mary are on the same page in their belief that if Jesus had been present, Lazarus would not have died. Jesus' response to this is described like this;John 11:33 (AMP)
When Jesus saw her sobbing, and the Jews who came with her [also] sobbing, He was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. [He chafed in spirit and sighed and was disturbed.]
What follows is the shortest scripture in the Bible. "Jesus wept". Now many people believe that Jesus wept because he loved Lazarus and simply to show His human side, but that makes absolutely no sense in the context of what is occurring. Jesus knew that He was going to raise Lazarus. Why would He be weeping about it? And why would it cause Him to be troubled in Spirit and "disturbed"? Verse 38 goes into further detail about how Jesus responded to this situation;John 11:38 (AMP)
Now Jesus, again sighing repeatedly and deeply disquieted, approached the tomb. It was a cave (a hole in the rock), and a boulder lay against [the entrance to close] it.
So I ask myself, why is Jesus "sighing repeatedly", and why is He "deeply disquieted"? Jesus then gets very bold;John 11:39 (AMP)
Jesus said, Take away the stone. Martha, the sister of the dead man, exclaimed, But Lord, by this time he [is decaying and] throws off an offensive odor, for he has been dead four days!
Now, recall that Martha has already declared to Jesus that she believed that no matter what He asked, God would grant it to Him. But here, where the rubber meets the road, Martha is saying "But Lord...", he stinks! Jesus then says this;John 11:40 (AMP)
Jesus said to her, Did I not tell you and promise you that if you would believe and rely on Me, you would see the glory of God?
Martha was thinking what many Christians today think. "Some day". But Jesus was talking about RIGHT NOW, and Jesus said to her "Didn't I tell you...?"

It's clear that no one really believed what Jesus said. They kept pushing it off to "some day" at the ressurrection, when Jesus was talking about NOW. It seems that Jesus was "sighing repeatedly" and "deeply disquieted" because no one really believed what He was trying to tell them.

What's even more amazing is the response to this miraculous act of raising the dead. This one miraculous act is what caused them to begin plotting how to kill Jesus.

Why?John 11:47-48 (AMP)
47 So the chief priests and Pharisees called a meeting of the council (the Sanhedrin) and said, What are we to do? For this Man performs many signs (evidences, miracles). 48 If we let Him alone to go on like this, everyone will believe in Him and adhere to Him, and the Romans will come and suppress and destroy and take away our [holy] place and our nation [our temple and city and our civil organization].
It basically boils down to the fact that they didn't want everyone to believe in Him. Jesus was upsetting their apple cart, so to speak, and they were none too thrilled about it.

It seems not much has changed. Jesus wants to do things for us, right NOW, today, in this life. And as long as their are religious spirits running around telling lies about how God is only concerned with "eternal" vs. "temporal", or saying they believe what Jesus says, but then turning around and saying, "But Lord, this stinks" when He goes to move on their behalf, people will continue to miss out on the fullness of the glory He wants for them. And there are still people that will seek to kill what God wants to do for you when you choose to really believe what He says.

[nephilimiyr]

I'm in the middle of a concert here at Rockwater but it's inbetween sets and nobody wants me for anything at the moment so I logged on :D

That was a good post Pete but how does what you said pertain to the OP or the debate at hand?:scratch:

[FoundInGrace]

Going back to this passage that was mentioned earlier, this are a couple of 'no's' from Jesus here, even being ignored, at least for a time, and quite harsh really. I'm glad God has His purposes to fulfill (hence the poor old Gentiles except for a select few weren't on Jesus list to help back then) but I'm also glad Jesus has compassion and that this story is in there because to me it shows we will get 'no' to our healing questions sometimes repeatedly and thats normal. Gods purposes have to come first.

God does say 'no' sometimes and I don't reckon it's because of a lack of faith - this woman had loads of it right from the start of her conversation and she still got a 'no' several times.

maybe persistence comes into it as well and God's timing.



Matt 15:21-28

Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

[probinson]

I'm in the middle of a concert here at Rockwater but it's inbetween sets and nobody wants me for anything at the moment so I logged on :D

That was a good post Pete but how does what you said pertain to the OP or the debate at hand?:scratch:
Well, there was a whole lot of discussion about Lazarus, so I thought I'd break it down. ;)

There really are a ton of lessons to be learned from the story of Lazarus. :cool:

[probinson]

Going back to this passage that was mentioned earlier, this are a couple of 'no's' from Jesus here, even being ignored, at least for a time, and quite harsh really. I'm glad God has His purposes to fulfill (hence the poor old Gentiles except for a select few weren't on Jesus list to help back then) but I'm also glad Jesus has compassion and that this story is in there because to me it shows we will get 'no' to our healing questions sometimes repeatedly and thats normal. Gods purposes have to come first.
This is actually a great point.

The way some people talk here on this forum, when the woman made a request of Jesus that was ignored, they would interpret that to mean it was not God's will. Some will even tell you that it has nothing to do with you, which is nothing but a false humility.

The woman had to be persistent. If she'd walked away and said, "Oh well, it must not be God's will for my daughter to be well", her daughter would not have been healed. If she had just sat there and waited for her daughter to be healed by "grace" the way some in this forum promote, her daughter also would not have been healed. In this instance, it was her actions that corresponded with her faith, and her persistence, that resulted in Jesus healing her daughter.

[FoundInGrace]

This is actually a great point.

The way some people talk here on this forum, when the woman made a request of Jesus that was ignored, they would interpret that to mean it was not God's will. Some will even tell you that it has nothing to do with you, which is nothing but a false humility.

The woman had to be persistent. If she'd walked away and said, "Oh well, it must not be God's will for my daughter to be well", her daughter would not have been healed. If she had just sat there and waited for her daughter to be healed by "grace" the way some in this forum promote, her daughter also would not have been healed. In this instance, it was her actions that corresponded with her faith, and her persistence, that resulted in Jesus healing her daughter.

we are always healed by grace though, the actual process of healing is by the grace of God. Everything from the hand of God is His grace - being healed is and not being healed is (my grace is sufficient). Either way is evidenced by the grace of God and both are of equal value imo.

As an aside to the topic of this thread I find the persistant aspect of our walk with God of great interest. The persistent widow for example. Very interesting. I do not have a problem with God healing or not healing, I've made my peace with that; circumstances do not change God, but the fact that God seems to respond to persistance in other aspects of my walk with God fascinates me.



"In this instance, it was her actions that corresponded with her faith, and her persistence, that resulted in Jesus healing her daughter."


In response to your above quote: and/or Jesus was impressed by her answer and that was why He healed her... it was a pretty cool answer gotta give her that. I don't know if we could then go on to say that the components of this interaction with Jesus could or should be applied to every situation. ie. if we get the right answer plus the right amount of faith plus the right persistence level then that is automatic for healing to happen. I would be very wary of ever putting what happened with this woman onto another's situation. God deals with us all very personally and we have no way of knowing what He is really doing in someone.

Jesus still had to choose to heal her, He could still have sent her away.

[probinson]

In response to your above quote: and/or Jesus was impressed by her answer and that was why He healed her... it was a pretty cool answer gotta give her that. I don't know if we could then go on to say that the components of this interaction with Jesus could or should be applied to every situation.
No, we most certainly can't apply this to every situation, but it does demonstrate that there are many ways God will interact with us.

Yes, I know it all starts from God's grace. Apart from God's grace, we have nothing.

But still, if we look at the man at the pool, he "did" nothing. Jesus just up and healed him out of the blue, while there were tons of other people that He did not.

With this woman, He ignored her and insulted her by calling her a "dog", and yet because of the woman's persistence, Jesus commended her for her faith and healed her daughter.

With the woman with the issue of blood, Jesus didn't even know who had touched Him. Her actions that corresponded with her faith resulted in her healing, so much so that Jesus said to her, "Your faith has made you whole".

Three different people. Three very different ways that God provided their healing.

[JimfromOhio]

There are more forcus on "healing" (as well as prosperity) than grace. When the focus is wrong, many fail to understand, receive and live out God's conditional grace, forgiveness and the real practice of faith in God's grace. In Corinthians, God gives us His GRACE to bear or endure which in greek, hupophero That it literally means to "get under it and carry it." Grace gets under us and carry our burdens for us whether we are healed or not, whether we are rich or poor. God's grace is power for all regardless their level of their faith. We have to remember that faith is effective when there is unity. Any attempt to follow Jesus’ example of ministry will be ineffective unless we also follow His example of love. Its a reminder that the life of the church is made up of spiritual attitudes and spiritual motivations, spiritual graces that come from deep within the community. Its a reminder of this verse in Ephesians 4:4, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."

Legalism. When someone teaches that one person do not have "enough faith", that's legalism. Real FAITH is their own spiritual growth grows because the Holy Spirit (God) is in them and not because they are following special rules of faith (as Pharisees did). The law often directs their behavior when focusing on faith but the law has no power to change THEIR mind or THEIR heart. Hebrews 7:18-19 "The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God."

WOF often refer to Romans 12:1-2 for their explaination of faith but the real explanation is that Christians are called to a life of transformation in which we yield our lives to the power of the Holy Spirit who changes us from within (inside out) through God's grace. Ephesians 4:22-24, You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

How? Ephesians 4:30 ".....do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption".

"Jesus reserved his hardest words for the hidden sins of hypocrisy, pride, greed and legalism." Philip Yancey

[probinson]

There are more forcus on "healing" (as well as prosperity) than grace.
It's not even necessary to read any further than this, because this single statement demonstrates your ignorance of what is actually taught in WoF circles.

Since your entire premise is based on the foundation of this single flaw, the rest of your argument is moot.

[JimfromOhio]

It's not even necessary to read any further than this, because this single statement demonstrates your ignorance of what is actually taught in WoF circles.

Since your entire premise is based on the foundation of this single flaw, the rest of your argument is moot.
You got something there. Christians believe what the Bible teaches in context which are the basics of what Christians believe and unite on. Christians' conclusions are either ignorance or loyalty to a specific denomination, cause, teachings (doctrines) or person.

Ever wondered why some of us disagree with WOF's doctrines? You don't have to listen to us but listen to your consciene that God has provided. 1 Timothy 1:5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. When a Christian who is saved by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, this Christian is living in a new Creature with holy conscience rather than sinful conscience. If we didn't feel the conviction and didn't have the motivation to change from "within", then we should be concerned whether we are truly saved or not.

As much as I disagree with WOF's doctrines, I have not hard feelings for those who follow them. I just focus on the topic (hopefully I am, if I am not, then I am sorry, forgive me). Grace is about loving other people that we have the freedom to do so but at the same time, respect how they practice their beliefs. In Romans 14:5 "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." 1 Corinthians 10:28-29 "both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake, the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience?" Everyone will have different view based on their "convictions".

What offends me when some told me of my own faith that I am not strong because I am not healed. They are NOT respecting my faith but rather putting me down for what they perceived that "I have lack of knowledge to obtain healing that is required through faith".

[Where]

How about this...

2 Corinthians 12:7-9

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


Or what about

Matthew 27:40-42

40and saying, "(A)You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! (B)If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross."

41In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes and elders, were mocking Him and saying,

42"He saved others; He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel; let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe in Him.

-He didn't heal Himself, and He was asked to do so. Mark 15:29-32 is the same thing.

Luke 23:35-39 as well...

35And the people stood by, looking on. And even the (A)rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; (B)let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One."

36The soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, (C)offering Him sour wine,

37and saying, "(D)If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!"

38Now there was also an inscription above Him, "(E)THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS."

39(F)One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? (G)Save Yourself and us!"


He never did heal the criminal saying "save yourself and us." The other, of course, was with Him, that very day :)

We know Jesus never healed Himself while He was on earth because Thomas put his fingers in Christs wounds.

Those are some thoughts

-Where