How does a Jew begin to believe in a triune God?

[Kris10leigh]

I'm very curious about this and hope not to strike up any hostility. I've been chatting extensively for a few months now about the Jewish Messiah and what He is going to be and it does not add up to what Yeshua is, or was. Yet I believe that He is the promised Messiah, but I view Him differently than the typical Christian.

So how does one who is born Jewish come to worship Yeshua the same way Christians do? Is it because Christians are the ones who first taught the concept to the person?

I'm surprised at our division still and curious as to how Messianics (Jews, gentiles, etc) come to believe in the Jesus as part of the trinity. It seems natural that a gentile would come to be a Messianic believer who believes in the trinity. It seems natural that a Jew would be a Messianic believer who does not believe in the trinity and who might even think Jesus is just a man, yet the Messiah. I am an oddball and I know that. Being a gentile, it seems natural I would believe the trinity. Without being disrespectful (notice I called myself out as being odd), I find it odd that Messianics Jews would believe in the trinity.

Am I making sense yet?

[kivi]

kivi says: I find it odd that anyone would think that the character called Jesus Christ as found in the New Testament is the Jewish Messiah.

I'm very curious about this and hope not to strike up any hostility. I've been chatting extensively for a few months now about the Jewish Messiah and what He is going to be and it does not add up to what Yeshua is, or was. Yet I believe that He is the promised Messiah, but I view Him differently than the typical Christian.

So how does one who is born Jewish come to worship Yeshua the same way Christians do? Is it because Christians are the ones who first taught the concept to the person?

I'm surprised at our division still and curious as to how Messianics (Jews, gentiles, etc) come to believe in the Jesus as part of the trinity. It seems natural that a gentile would come to be a Messianic believer who believes in the trinity. It seems natural that a Jew would be a Messianic believer who does not believe in the trinity and who might even think Jesus is just a man, yet the Messiah. I am an oddball and I know that. Being a gentile, it seems natural I would believe the trinity. Without being disrespectful (notice I called myself out as being odd), I find it odd that Messianics Jews would believe in the trinity.

Am I making sense yet?

[Kris10leigh]

eh...you're talking to someone who grew up in the church and still attends but does not believe in the trinity. So yes, I do believe I am worshipping the Jewish Messiah and understand that Jews think I am not. ;) That's fine. That's not really my issue at present though. :sorry:

[visionary]

old habits die hard.

[ContraMundum]

Could you possibly be more insulting?

Are you insinuating that Jewish Trinitarians are dumb, lacking brains? That's the way it looks.

Believe me, we've done our homework.

[ContraMundum]

Just so others can see that Jews can easily, logically and readily understand the deeper revealed truths about God found in the NT, here is a link that I think would have been obvious to check out when posing this question.

A Messianic Jews Explains the Trinity (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi2nAHPpgvI)

This is a basic, simple introductory level explanation for people too lazy to do more work for their own theology. :D

[visionary]

Could you possibly be more insulting?

Are you insinuating that Jewish Trinitarians are dumb, lacking brains? That's the way it looks.

Believe me, we've done our homework.You are jumping to conclusions ..

That old habit doesn't have to be wrong...

Change is always difficult...

It was not the theology I was commenting on.. but the process by which someone goes from one understanding to another.

[Kris10leigh]

Could you possibly be more insulting?

Are you insinuating that Jewish Trinitarians are dumb, lacking brains? That's the way it looks.

Believe me, we've done our homework.
I hope you're not talking to me, and if you are, I'll happily go back and edit, just show me my error.

My question is in wondering how Jews go from believing the promised Messiah will be only a man to believing in a Messiah who IS God. Though I don't believe in the trinity, I see it as open for discussion, so I promise you I mean no disrepect.

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: I find it odd that anyone would think that the character called Jesus Christ as found in the New Testament is the Jewish Messiah.

Well, considering we are being blunt...I find it odd that RJs have a Messianic image and expectation that is framed by people who rejected Jesus and then later went about making it binding dogma on everybody, rejecting certain reasonable arguments, interpretations and positions previously held by some of their ancient peers that clearly got it right.

[ContraMundum]

Is it because Christians are the ones who first taught the concept to the person?

I'm surprised at our division still and curious as to how Messianics (Jews, gentiles, etc) come to believe in the Jesus as part of the trinity. It seems natural that a gentile would come to be a Messianic believer who believes in the trinity.

That seems to imply that Jewish Christians believe in the Trinity because the Gentiles "said so". That's what is insulting. Also, what are you saying that would make a Gentile more readily believe the Trinity? It's just as "illogical" on the carnal level to the Gentile as to the Jew. are you saying that Gentiles are dumber, smarter, more illogical or more logical or do you think there is some pagan copy-cat conspiracy behind it all?

My question is in wondering how Jews go from believing the promised Messiah will be only a man to believing in a Messiah who IS God. Though I don't believe in the trinity, I see it as open for discussion, so I promise you I mean no disrepect.It's part of being born again. The scriptures make sense to you by the Holy Spirit and you see the Divinity of Jesus throughout the whole counsel of God- even in Rabbinic tradition if you know it. Logically, it makes sense too, but I don't think people will pursue such heavenly logic without the promoting power of the new birth to inspire them.

[Kris10leigh]

It's part of being born again. The scriptures make sense to you by the Holy Spirit and you see the Divinity of Jesus throughout the whole counsel of God- even in Rabbinic tradition if you know it. Logically, it makes sense too, but I don't think people will pursue such heavenly logic without the promoting power of the new birth to inspire them.
This I can understand. :thumbsup: Thank you.

[ContraMundum]

You are jumping to conclusions ..

That old habit doesn't have to be wrong...

Change is always difficult...

It was not the theology I was commenting on.. but the process by which someone goes from one understanding to another.


Thanks vis...I think you're right about this at least in some people's circumstances. That isn't my personal experience, but it could easily be the experience of others I would imagine.

[ContraMundum]

This I can understand. :thumbsup: Thank you.

OK Kris...but I find it hard to follow your train of thought sometimes.

I sometimes get confused about what I supposed to understand from your words, sister. I am, after all, a mere male. :cool:

[Kris10leigh]

OK Kris...but I find it hard to follow your train of thought sometimes.

I sometimes get confused about what I supposed to understand from your words, sister. I am, after all, a mere male. :cool:
I know. Feel free to ask.;) I tried to word it as carefully as possible.

[kivi]

Well, considering we are being blunt...I find it odd that RJs have a Messianic image and expectation that is framed by people who rejected Jesus and then later went about making it binding dogma on everybody, rejecting certain reasonable arguments, interpretations and positions previously held by some of their ancient peers that clearly got it right.


kivi respectfully asks: Who/what are RJs?

[Kris10leigh]

kivi respectfully asks: Who/what are RJs?
Rabbinic Jews ;)

[kivi]

Rabbinic Jews ;)

kivi asks, very respectfully:): That means me?

[Kris10leigh]

kivi asks, very respectfully:): That means me?

I dunno. ^_^ I just know that's what the letters stand for. I'm still trying to figure out the definition myself.

[kivi]

Well, considering we are being blunt...I find it odd that RJs have a Messianic image and expectation that is framed by people who rejected Jesus and then later went about making it binding dogma on everybody, rejecting certain reasonable arguments, interpretations and positions previously held by some of their ancient peers that clearly got it right.

kivi says: Since the framework, as you refer to it, was created {see Moses} and was published by the latter Prophets {see Zech and the boys}, who lived long before Jesus Chirst is supposed to have shown up, it is hardly scholary rigor to claim that the current Jewish framework was created after Jesus Christ is supposed to have existed. In fact, the entire idea that current Rabbinic Judaism was invented after the time period of the supposed Jesus Christ is totally false as to chronology and fact. While Judaism continues, as was orginially planned, to adopt the changing conditions of Mankind to the spiritual program of Torah and a lot of history has occured since 0 CE, so there has been a lot of adoption, the adoption has fallen totally within the confines of the Torah True Tradition. There is an unbroken and continous Traditon from Moses to the present, straight as an arrow and true as the morning dew.

There were not a lot of co-equal Jewish sects in 0 CE, all competing equally for the Jewish soul. There was the Torah True Tradition, referred to as Pharisaic Judaism, which was the vast majority of all Jews in the entire world and was the successor to the Prophets and precursor to current Rabbinic Judaism. And then there were some hertical sects influenced by the assimulation of foreign religions like the Hellenists, the Sadducees, the Zealots, Essenes, etc. which made up a small minority of Jews, primarily in Eretz Israel and the Greco-Roman Mediterranean cities. There were no 'reasonable arguements' etc that were rejected. What there was is the continous Torah Tradition and some heresies. It should be noted that all of the heresies either disappeared or stopped being Jewish. Which is always the end game for heresies in Judaism.

[kivi]

I dunno. ^_^ I just know that's what the letters stand for. I'm still trying to figure out the definition myself.

kivi says: Thank you.

[ContraMundum]

kivi asks, very respectfully:): That means me?

Yes indeed!

kivi says: Since the framework, as you refer to it, was created {see Moses} and was published by the latter Prophets {see Zech and the boys}, who lived long before Jesus Chirst is supposed to have shown up, it is hardly scholary rigor to claim that the current Jewish framework was created after Jesus Christ is supposed to have existed. In fact, the entire idea that current Rabbinic Judaism was invented after the time period of the supposed Jesus Christ is totally false as to chronology and fact. While Judaism continues, as was orginially planned, to adopt the changing conditions of Mankind to the spiritual program of Torah and a lot of history has occured since 0 CE, so there has been a lot of adoption, the adoption has fallen totally within the confines of the Torah True Tradition. There is an unbroken and continous Traditon from Moses to the present, straight as an arrow and true as the morning dew.

OK...let me clarify. There is indeed a direct connection with Moses to the current plethora of Jewish groups and sects. But various ways of being Jewish have been cut off since the time of Jesus and some have been added. Not all of them are "true". Therefore, the issue is not one of continuity itself, but rather one of continuous truth.

The Pharisaic sect are easily the most influential in Orthodox Judaism in our day- but their Judaism is rather different to the Judaism of the Second Temple period. Things have changed. Lots of things. One of the things that has changed is that certain ideas about Messianic prophecy, once clearly acceptable opinions, have been pushed under the carpet because they inevitably point to Jesus. In their stead, other opinions about the Messiah have been enshrined and labelled "true". Yet, to this day, there is nothing but confusion and diversity when Jews discuss Moshiach. Christians say that the truth was there all along, but now, it's desperately attempted to be kept hidden to keep certain sects in power.

There were not a lot of co-equal Jewish sects in 0 CE, all competing equally for the Jewish soul. There was the Torah True Tradition, referred to as Pharisaic Judaism, which was the vast majority of all Jews in the entire world and was the successor to the Prophets and precursor to current Rabbinic Judaism. And then there were some hertical sects influenced by the assimulation of foreign religions like the Hellenists, the Sadducees, the Zealots, Essenes, etc. which made up a small minority of Jews, primarily in Eretz Israel and the Greco-Roman Mediterranean cities. There were no 'reasonable arguements' etc that were rejected. What there was is the continous Torah Tradition and some heresies. It should be noted that all of the heresies either disappeared or stopped being Jewish. Which is always the end game for heresies in Judaism.This is rather a subjective point, though, don't you think? It is a statement of faith, not fact, that Pharisaic Judaism is "true Torah", when in fact it does not keep the whole Torah at all- it only keeps certain aspects of Torah. Furthermore, Pharisaic Judaism embraces strange new Eastern theologies like the Zohar which Moses would have found to be completely alien. It has added, and it has taken away.

As I've said before, if popularity is equal to survival, which is by your reasoning a sign of being "true", then Christianity wins hands down. Christianity has clearly led the way in spreading light to the Gentiles, helping them be new priests (as prophecied in the Tanach- and much more). Without Christianity few would know the commandments and the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob who gave them.

[kivi]

Yes indeed!
kivi says: :clap:

OK...let me clarify. There is indeed a direct connection with Moses to the current plethora of Jewish groups and sects.
kivi says: If Observant, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionists is a plethora of groups, what are Roman Catholic, Charismatic, Old Catholic, Ukraine Catholic, Polish Catholic, Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, Armenean Orthodox, Chaldeans, Coptic, Missouri Lutheran, United Lutheran, Free Chruch Lutheran, German Lutheran, Danish Lutheran, Swedish Lutheran, Finnish Lutheran, Anglician [High, Low, Episcopalian [pro and anti gay marriage; pro and anti women priests], United Methodist, Southern Methodist, Mentalphysis Chruch, Religious Science Church, Unitarian, Universalist, Moravian Brethan, Mennonites [100 different groups], Amish, Southern Baptist, Baptists, 4 Square, Morman, Reconstructed Morman, Old Morman [with and without poligamy] 7th day Adventists, Christian Scientists, Jehovah Witnesses, Anabaptists, Nazerene, Assemblies of God, Church of God, United Church of Christ, Metropolitian Church, African Methodist Episcopal Church, Fundamentalists [of various stripes], Calvary Chapel. Congregationalist, Community Church, Christian Church, Presbytarians, United Missionary Alliance, etc etc etc etc?

But various ways of being Jewish have been cut off since the time of Jesus and some have been added. Not all of them are "true". Therefore, the issue is not one of continuity itself, but rather one of continuous truth.

kivi says: It is one of the promises from G-d to the Jews that while He will punish us when we are disobedient, He will not cut us off and that we can always return to Him from any averiah we may do. So, for us, the condition of 'continuity' is the proof of the truth, the proof of G-d's promise to us. Those heresies that died out or left Judaism or became so segregated that they stopped having any influence [ie:Karites] are proof that they stopped being under G-d's promise. That we exist is the proof.

The Pharisaic sect are easily the most influential in Orthodox Judaism in our day- but their Judaism is rather different to the Judaism of the Second Temple period.
kivi says: Some of the practices of the Pharisees may have changed, there is no Temple, for example. But the continuity is obvious. The Tradition is unbroken. The identity of action and belief is clear. There is no question that Pharisaic Judaism of ) CE and Observant Judaim of 2000 CE are part of the same Tradition. As for the other heresies, they are all gone. They cut themselves off from the Living Torah, from G-d's Word. So, yes, the condition of Judaism has changed. There are new heresies, there are new assaults, there are new challenges. Your point is?

Things have changed. Lots of things. One of the things that has changed is that certain ideas about Messianic prophecy, once clearly acceptable opinions, have been pushed under the carpet because they [I]inevitably point to Jesus.
kivbi says: That is wrong. You make a lot of vague and general statements, what is your evidence and proof. It may take a while for a heresey to work itself out and it most definily takes time for a heresy to die out or leave Judaism, but that does not mean it is not a heresy. So, I would say that you arguement hinges on the word 'acceptable'. Since G-d continues to maintain the Torah True Tradition, then the opinons that are 'acceptable' with in that Tradition clearly are what G-d wants. And those that are not acceptable, they have 'left'.

In their stead, other [I]opinions about the Messiah have been enshrined and labelled "true". Yet, to this day, there is nothing but confusion and diversity when Jews discuss Moshiach.
kivi says: I don't think so and Judaism doesn't think so. If Christianity thinks that of Judaism, then Christianity, one more time, has it wrong about Judaism. On th other hand, if you want to talk about 'diversity' in theology, Christianity is the the religion of chaos and confusion. Look at the table of contents in CF alone [see above].

Christians say that the truth was there all along, but now, it's desperately attempted to be kept hidden to keep certain sects in power.
kivi says: I'll have to wait on you because you have not shared the 'other opinions' you say with such confidence. Until you do share these 'other opinions', it is impossible for me to make an intelligent comment.;)

This is rather a subjective point, though, don't you think? It is a statement of faith, not fact, that Pharisaic Judaism is "true Torah", when in fact it does not keep the whole Torah at all- it only keeps certain aspects of Torah. Furthermore, Pharisaic Judaism embraces strange new Eastern theologies like the Zohar which Moses would have found to be completely alien. It has added, and it has taken away.
kivi says: I think a good arguement can be made for 'fact' and not just 'faith'. 1/ I think that the list of the 613 Mitzvahs can be brought out, the ones that Observant Judaism does can be marked off and the reasons it does not do the ones it does not do can be marked off and then compared with the ones that any other sect does or does not do. 2/ I also think that it is logical to trace the teacher to student continous linkage over the centuries and see which non-Obsevant/Pharisaic sect can match Torah Judaism. I think those two exersises are valid ways to identifying the 'fact' in the matter.
Galus makes it impossible to fulfill certain Mitzvahs. That is one of the results of Galus. That does not mean we don't want to do them. We do every one we can, look to ways to start re-building the Temple, even now, and wait in faithful anticipation for Moshiach so we can finally do those we can not do now. You say you know what the appropriate Mitzvahs are and how they are kept. I believe you. So pick an average Observant Jew, count the number of Mitzvahs the Jew does daily and then count how many your Christian friend does and tell me who is in and not in the Tradition.
I know you have difficulites with the Zohar. I wish I had the background to talk with you on it. It just is not my area of expertise. Sorry. :sorry: All I can do is hope someone with that expertise joins so you will have a knowledgable Jew to talk with.


As I've said before, if popularity is equal to survival, which is by your reasoning a sign of being "true", then Christianity wins hands down.
kivi says: Really, I did not say that. I did say that continuity is proof of G-d's promise. We never expect to be popular. I would say that popularity would get in the way of our obligations to G-d and Mankind. There is just not a lot of people checking the Help Wanted ads to be canaries. And to be honest, it doesn't take a lot of people to do the job. So, there will never be many of us. I suspect that the 0 CE census of Jews in the world and the 2000 census of Jews in the world are pretty simular. The thing that is that the proof of G-d's promise is that we are there, in both censuses, live and kicking, the 'center of attention' of a lot of people who wish we would just go away, still cutting it up and still setting the bar for doing G-d's Will

Christianity has clearly led the way in spreading light to the Gentiles, helping them be new priests (as prophecied in the Tanach- and much more). Without Christianity few would know the commandments and the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob who gave them.

kivi says: And Judaism fully recognises the contribution of both Islam and Christianity in spreading the message of monotheism. Keep up the good work. The 'priest' part is just a little inaccurate. Join us in the mines and then we can talk.:)

[RebYosef]

The Pharisaic sect are easily the most influential in Orthodox Judaism in our day- but their Judaism is rather different to the Judaism of the Second Temple period. Things have changed. Lots of things.


The loss of the Royal Throne, Temple and it's High Priests would rank up there I assume.


One of the things that has changed is that certain ideas about Messianic prophecy,

You can use your fingers to count the amount of topics in the Mishna that have to do with Eschatology, much less Olam HaBa, even less, moshiach ben Dovid. Everything else, comes from later Gemora at it's earliest.

Unless you are speaking of Hetrodox groups and those outside of the Pharisee?

once clearly acceptable opinions, have been pushed under the carpet because they inevitably point to Jesus. In their stead, other opinions about the Messiah have been enshrined and labelled "true".

What are these do you speak of? Who is pushing them under the carpet? And where? When?

Yet, to this day, there is nothing but confusion and diversity when Jews discuss Moshiach.

There isn't much that doesn't elicit diversity in Judaism.


Furthermore, Pharisaic Judaism embraces strange new Eastern theologies like the Zohar which Moses would have found to be completely alien. It has added, and it has taken away.


I don't think I've ever embraced the ZoHar, nor is acceptance of this text mandated by anyone.

[Mikeb85]

kivi says: :clap:


kivi says: If Observant, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionists is a plethora of groups, what are Roman Catholic, Charismatic, Old Catholic, Ukraine Catholic, Polish Catholic, Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, Armenean Orthodox, Chaldeans, Coptic, Missouri Lutheran, United Lutheran, Free Chruch Lutheran, German Lutheran, Danish Lutheran, Swedish Lutheran, Finnish Lutheran, Anglician [High, Low, Episcopalian [pro and anti gay marriage; pro and anti women priests], United Methodist, Southern Methodist, Mentalphysis Chruch, Religious Science Church, Unitarian, Universalist, Moravian Brethan, Mennonites [100 different groups], Amish, Southern Baptist, Baptists, 4 Square, Morman, Reconstructed Morman, Old Morman [with and without poligamy] 7th day Adventists, Christian Scientists, Jehovah Witnesses, Anabaptists, Nazerene, Assemblies of God, Church of God, United Church of Christ, Metropolitian Church, African Methodist Episcopal Church, Fundamentalists [of various stripes], Calvary Chapel. Congregationalist, Community Church, Christian Church, Presbytarians, United Missionary Alliance, etc etc etc etc?


Keep in mind that Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, OCA, Albanian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Jerusalem Patriarchate, Alexandrian Patriarchate, etc... (all other canonical Orthodox, some 300 million people in total), are all the SAME group. All our churches are fully united by faith and communion.

As for all the protestant churches and schismatic groups, it's unfortunate, and we pray for re-unification. But that's what happens when people forsake the faith that has been handed down, and instead rely upon their own interpretations.

[kivi]

Keep in mind that Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, OCA, Albanian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Jerusalem Patriarchate, Alexandrian Patriarchate, etc... (all other canonical Orthodox, some 300 million people in total), are all the SAME group. All our churches are fully united by faith and communion.

As for all the protestant churches and schismatic groups, it's unfortunate, and we pray for re-unification. But that's what happens when people forsake the faith that has been handed down, and instead rely upon their own interpretations.


kivi asks: Just for my clarification, so I get it right: Do the various Orthodox Churches recognize each other ordinations? Can a priest ordained in the Greek Orthodox officate and be accept in full communiion with all of the rest of Orthodox Churches you mention? Is the same for marriages, baptism, confirmation? How do the heads of the various Churches interact at an offical level? Is it a hierarchy with a single head or a communion of different governing bodies? Thanks for taking the time to clarify in my mind the polity of the Orthodox Churches.

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: :clap:


kivi says: If Observant, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionists is a plethora of groups, what are Roman Catholic, Charismatic, Old Catholic, Ukraine Catholic, Polish Catholic, Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, Armenean Orthodox, Chaldeans, Coptic, Missouri Lutheran, United Lutheran, Free Chruch Lutheran, German Lutheran, Danish Lutheran, Swedish Lutheran, Finnish Lutheran, Anglician [High, Low, Episcopalian [pro and anti gay marriage; pro and anti women priests], United Methodist, Southern Methodist, Mentalphysis Chruch, Religious Science Church, Unitarian, Universalist, Moravian Brethan, Mennonites [100 different groups], Amish, Southern Baptist, Baptists, 4 Square, Morman, Reconstructed Morman, Old Morman [with and without poligamy] 7th day Adventists, Christian Scientists, Jehovah Witnesses, Anabaptists, Nazerene, Assemblies of God, Church of God, United Church of Christ, Metropolitian Church, African Methodist Episcopal Church, Fundamentalists [of various stripes], Calvary Chapel. Congregationalist, Community Church, Christian Church, Presbytarians, United Missionary Alliance, etc etc etc etc?

There's a lot more Christians than there are any other religion on theplanet- naturally, that would lead to more expressions of the faith. What you fail to see is that almost all of them are in good fellowship with each other, share ministries, teachers, bookstores, etc. There's no real denomination wars these days. Catch up bro.

kivi says: Some of the practices of the Pharisees may have changed, there is no Temple, for example. But the continuity is obvious. The Tradition is unbroken. The identity of action and belief is clear. There is no question that Pharisaic Judaism of ) CE and Observant Judaim of 2000 CE are part of the same Tradition. I never said otherwise. I agree. You're merely repeating what I said.

It's just taken a wrong turn, that's all.

More another time...running short here bro.

[ContraMundum]

The loss of the Royal Throne, Temple and it's High Priests would rank up there I assume.

Yep- and some of those things form the bulk of the Torah.

You can use your fingers to count the amount of topics in the Mishna that have to do with Eschatology, much less Olam HaBa, even less, moshiach ben Dovid. Everything else, comes from later Gemora at it's earliest.

I know.

Unless you are speaking of Hetrodox groups and those outside of the Pharisee?

Not really...I think the Pharisaic camp is dreadfully unorthodox.

What are these do you speak of? Who is pushing them under the carpet? And where? When?

I wish I more time today. I have Shabbos in 20 mins.

I don't think I've ever embraced the ZoHar, nor is acceptance of this text mandated by anyone.

The mere fact that it is tolerated in Judaism is an affront to truth, IMHO. That tolerance alone would make Judaism heterodox at best.

More another time, but thanks for replying.

[RebYosef]

Yep- and some of those things form the bulk of the Torah.

and

I wish I more time today. I have Shabbos in 20 mins.

You are going to expand on both these subjects.



I know.

and

Not really...I think the Pharisaic camp is dreadfully unorthodox.

Unless there is some sort of miscomunication, you have left yourself with about 5 paragraphs to work with. This going to be some feat to explain how we have deviated from this small amount of text, with so little and broad to work with.




The mere fact that it is tolerated in Judaism is an affront to truth, IMHO. That tolerance alone would make Judaism heterodox at best.

If one is familiar with Midrash and it's purpose, I'm not sure how you could exactly come to this conclusion.

[Torah613]

kivi asks: Just for my clarification, so I get it right: Do the various Orthodox Churches recognize each other ordinations? Can a priest ordained in the Greek Orthodox officate and be accept in full communiion with all of the rest of Orthodox Churches you mention? Is the same for marriages, baptism, confirmation? How do the heads of the various Churches interact at an offical level? Is it a hierarchy with a single head or a communion of different governing bodies? Thanks for taking the time to clarify in my mind the polity of the Orthodox Churches.

Kivi, it works like with CofE and ECUSA. Technically different churches, same communion.

Yochanan

[kivi]

Kivi, it works like with CofE and ECUSA. Technically different churches, same communion.

Yochanan
kivi says: And the CofE and the ECUSA are? Thanks for clearing that up. :)

[Mikeb85]

kivi asks: Just for my clarification, so I get it right: Do the various Orthodox Churches recognize each other ordinations? Can a priest ordained in the Greek Orthodox officate and be accept in full communiion with all of the rest of Orthodox Churches you mention? Is the same for marriages, baptism, confirmation? How do the heads of the various Churches interact at an offical level? Is it a hierarchy with a single head or a communion of different governing bodies? Thanks for taking the time to clarify in my mind the polity of the Orthodox Churches.

Yes, they recognize each others ordinations, marriages, baptisms, etc...

Any Orthodox believer (within the canonical Orthodox church) can visit and recieve communion in any other canonical Orthodox church - whether it's in Jerusalem, Egypt, Greece, Russia, the USA, Canada, etc...

It's not a hierarchy with a single head like the Roman Catholic church, rather, a communion of different churches, united fully in doctrine, faith, practice, etc... No church has the authority to change doctrine or practices of the faith without the approval of a council of all the churches. Each church however takes care of affairs of administration, finances, etc...

[Torah613]

kivi says: And the CofE and the ECUSA are? Thanks for clearing that up. :)

Kivi I'm shocked!

ECUSA=Episcopal Church of hte United States of America

CofE= Church of England

[ChavaK]

So how does one who is born Jewish come to worship Yeshua the same way Christians do? Is it because Christians are the ones who first taught the concept to the person?


I am going to make a very generalized statement here, but one that holds
true from what I have seen in real life and on forums.
Of course I must say there are always exceptions to every generalization.

In my experience, Jews who become Messianic and Jews who accept the
trinity are Jews who have not been raised religiously. They are almost
universally from secular homes, or raised in another faith and later on
discover they are Jewish ("conveniently", LOL).

So they assume the religion they were not raised in has nothing to offer
and go looking for what they think is greener pastures. Being surrounded
by gentile beliefs and gentile spirituality is a great draw to them.

So from that, once they dabble in other religions, specifically Christianity,
I don't think it is that great of a step to accept the trinity. They have
no background or basis not to accept it. Other than a secular belief
that Jews don't believe that....but once they lose their connection to
Judaism they lose their aversion to trinitarian and Christian beliefs.

Now, again I am saying this is generalized...there are, presumabely,
some raised Orthodox who make the jump.
But I believe this is pretty rare....most come from homes where they
were not raised in a religions household. They come from a position
of ignorance.

[Torah613]

I am going to make a very generalized statement here, but one that holds
true from what I have seen in real life and on forums.
Of course I must say there are always exceptions to every generalization.

In my experience, Jews who become Messianic and Jews who accept the
trinity are Jews who have not been raised religiously. They are almost
universally from secular homes, or raised in another faith and later on
discover they are Jewish ("conveniently", LOL).

So they assume the religion they were not raised in has nothing to offer
and go looking for what they think is greener pastures. Being surrounded
by gentile beliefs and gentile spirituality is a great draw to them.

So from that, once they dabble in other religions, specifically Christianity,
I don't think it is that great of a step to accept the trinity. They have
no background or basis not to accept it. Other than a secular belief
that Jews don't believe that....but once they lose their connection to
Judaism they lose their aversion to trinitarian and Christian beliefs.

Now, again I am saying this is generalized...there are, presumabely,
some raised Orthodox who make the jump.
But I believe this is pretty rare....most come from homes where they
were not raised in a religions household. They come from a position
of ignorance.

I once heard tell of a woman who became a messianic in college after discovering a verse in the NT that was just so spiritual she knew it had to be of G-d. the verse? Love your G-d with all your heart..... This verse for those not in the know is the second line of the Vahavata (its originally in deutoronomy) which is recited by every religious Jew 2 times a day.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

I once heard tell of a woman who became a messianic in college after discovering a verse in the NT that was just so spiritual she knew it had to be of G-d. the verse? Love your G-d with all your heart..... This verse for those not in the know is the second line of the Vahavata (its originally in deutoronomy) which is recited by every religious Jew 2 times a day.

Yochanan

Yes, this is very sad....the ignorance amongst Jews is a tragedy.

[Kris10leigh]

I am going to make a very generalized statement here, but one that holds
true from what I have seen in real life and on forums.
Of course I must say there are always exceptions to every generalization.

In my experience, Jews who become Messianic and Jews who accept the
trinity are Jews who have not been raised religiously. They are almost
universally from secular homes, or raised in another faith and later on
discover they are Jewish ("conveniently", LOL).

So they assume the religion they were not raised in has nothing to offer
and go looking for what they think is greener pastures. Being surrounded
by gentile beliefs and gentile spirituality is a great draw to them.

So from that, once they dabble in other religions, specifically Christianity,
I don't think it is that great of a step to accept the trinity. They have
no background or basis not to accept it. Other than a secular belief
that Jews don't believe that....but once they lose their connection to
Judaism they lose their aversion to trinitarian and Christian beliefs.

Now, again I am saying this is generalized...there are, presumabely,
some raised Orthodox who make the jump.
But I believe this is pretty rare....most come from homes where they
were not raised in a religions household. They come from a position
of ignorance.
This makes sense to me, though I wouldn't go so far as to say their position is from ignorance. ;) For many it may come from quite a bit of study. There is a lot written on the topic, for instance.

Is the official Messianic stance for trinity, does anyone know?

[ChavaK]

This makes sense to me, though I wouldn't go so far as to say their position is from ignorance. ;) For many it may come from quite a bit of study.
Yes, but what these people do is study Christianity first, and then
they go back and try to study and learn about Judaism from a Christian
perspective. They try to put the round peg of Christianity into the
square peg of Judaism.


Is the official Messianic stance for trinity, does anyone know?
LOL, is there any "official" Messianic stance for anything? ;):D

[Kris10leigh]

LOL, is there any "official" Messianic stance for anything? ;):D
I have no idea. :D

[RebYosef]

Is the official Messianic stance for trinity, does anyone know?

Messianic Christanity is more of a congregational movement, adopting styles of worship. On the theology end, it's nothing new, but straight from standards of Christian doctrine.

That being said, I think you'll find belief in the trinity a majority, becuase it is a widely accepted doctrine in both Protestant and Orthodox beleifs.

[ContraMundum]

Unless there is some sort of miscomunication, you have left yourself with about 5 paragraphs to work with. This going to be some feat to explain how we have deviated from this small amount of text, with so little and broad to work with.

The problem I have is this: it's been done to death. It's flogging a dead horse and I made a commitment not to argue the law with those of different traditions on this forum, because of the NT mandate not to argue with those who are not ready to actually discuss things with an open mind and heart.

Simply put: a) we disagree on the interpretation of certain portions of the Tanach b) we disagree on the role and authority of oral tradition and c) we disagree on who has the real authority on matters relating to a) and b).

Therefore, all I would do is point out that there are traditions within Judaism that clearly support and validate the NT and the interpretations of the church. You would in reply simply try to prove that a) we don't understand the plain teachings of those sources, not being "ed-um-acated" properly or worse and b) that those citations are "no longer believed, or a minority position proved wrong" or some other skullduggery: eg. commence the Rabbinic pilpul shell game.

So, unless you are serious about this, and are prepared to take time and commit it to this discussion and honestly and humbly ask why Jews are becoming Christians (without compulsion and often without the contact of a "missionary"), we have nothing to say to each other on this topic.

If one is familiar with Midrash and it's purpose, I'm not sure how you could exactly come to this conclusion.

I'm familiar with Midrash. I also know it's often a horse men ride to take it where they wish it to go. I know its purpose.

[ContraMundum]

I am going to make a very generalized statement here, but one that holds
true from what I have seen in real life and on forums.....
Now, again I am saying this is generalized...there are, presumabely,
some raised Orthodox who make the jump.
But I believe this is pretty rare....most come from homes where they
were not raised in a religions household. They come from a position
of ignorance.

I agree with your post, in general. But I'd hasten to add that times are a'changing. Since the war more and more religious Jews (including some prominent Chief Rabbis) are seeing that the Christian position is not only reasonable, but it is a miracle that can be lived.

I personally admit that being religious as a kid had its benefits, but I wasn't really prepared to accept some of what was being taught to me as true and the older I got the more I lost interest. This is quite normal for a lot of Jews in my experience, just like it is for any religious group, as most of my childhood friends went way off the track until they got married. I've always had a mind for critical, independant thinking, even as a child. God made me that way. He didn't make a mistake. Such is life.

[Torah613]

See, and here I am wishing that I had been raised frum. For over two decades I didn't keep the mitzvoth. I did nothing to elevate the divine sparks, nothing to bring Moshiach.

So, nu, when innocent children die of hunger and disease, who is at fault? me.

Yochanan

[Kris10leigh]

That being said, I think you'll find belief in the trinity a majority, becuase it is a widely accepted doctrine in both Protestant and Orthodox beleifs.
This is true. I just find it odd because it's supposed to be about getting back to Jewish roots, not about flavoring Judaism with Christianity.

[Torah613]

unfortunately, not all, but many in the messianic movement are (as stated earlier in the thread) ignorant of the ins and outs of Jewish belief and praxis. thus they read and study (maybe even voraciously) the chr*Stian teachings. Then they go back and look at Judaism through chr*Stian glasses. it just doesn't work to do that.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

Since the war more and more religious Jews (including some prominent Chief Rabbis) are seeing that the Christian position is not only reasonable, but it is a miracle that can be lived.
I think that we can safely say that if they say this, it is for Gentiles, but most definitely not reasonable or miraculous for a Jew....;)

I personally admit that being religious as a kid had its benefits, but I wasn't really prepared to accept some of what was being taught to me as true

That's one of the great things about Judaism- you should question.

This is quite normal for a lot of Jews in my experience, just like it is for any religious group, as most of my childhood friends went way off the track until they got married.
Interesting, I can't really think of anyone I know who was brought up
religious that has gone off the derech. I do know some BT's though
that have....but they usually end up returning in the end.

I've always had a mind for critical, independant thinking, even as a child. God made me that way. He didn't make a mistake. Such is life.
So, are you saying religous Jews don't have critical, independent thinking
skills? These are a pre-requisite for being a Jew, LOL.

[ContraMundum]

I think that we can safely say that if they say this, it is for Gentiles, but most definitely not reasonable or miraculous for a Jew....;)

Oh, so now God restricts miracles according to race? That's really weird.

That's one of the great things about Judaism- you should question.Yes, you should.

Interesting, I can't really think of anyone I know who was brought up
religious that has gone off the derech. I do know some BT's though
that have....but they usually end up returning in the end.A confusing statement.

So, are you saying religous Jews don't have critical, independent thinking
skills? These are a pre-requisite for being a Jew, LOL. Some do, some don't. I wouldn't make a generalisation like that, I don't have that kind of omniscience. I only know what I see. Obviously, if a Jew does not possess or claim his or her critical, independant thought they remain Jewish, no? Let's not make pre-requisites that God does not.

We've both been to shiurim, so let's not paint a rosy picture for the Gentiles, and tell it like it is. There's levels of being studious, and all are found at shiurim. I know plenty of people who presume asking a question at a shiur is being independant and employing critical thought, but it is not the questioning that makes independant, critical thought, but what one does with the answers.

Some people accept the answers as told them, others go further and dig deeper, even seeking opposing views. Which is employing critical independant thought best?

Jews are people too- maybe generally very good people (I think) but we all have the same fallibilities as others. I think we owe it to the people on this forum of other backgrounds to at least acknowledge that they share all the common human traits with us.

[Simonline]

Post deleted

[Simonline]

Post deleted

[kivi]

CM says: There's a lot more Christians than there are any other religion on theplanet- naturally, that would lead to more expressions of the faith. What you fail to see is that almost all of them are in good fellowship with each other, share ministries, teachers, bookstores, etc.
kivi says: All I see is the TV preachers fighting each other and sending each other to Hell. All I see is the Anglican communion falling apart [of which you are a part]. All I see is Christians on one side of the police line in front of the abortion clinic and Christians on the other side of the police line, both wishing they could kill each other. All I see is a religion that, if left to its own devices, would tear itself into pieces and everybody else. In the history of Christianity, the only people that Christians hate more than Jews is other Christians. Right now, the 'secular' governments of the 'West' keep the various combatants apart, so the only serious problems is the sharpened tongues. But in the US, many of the writers of the Constituions were old enough to remember that the Puritians loved to execute Quaker missionaries as well as witches. And that the original 'religious liberites' amendment was to the Virginia State Constituion [Jefferson] to stop the Anglicans and Baptists from going after each other's throats. In fact, I think that the growth of 'secular' government was a direct outcome of the 200 year slaughter of Catholic ad Protestant in Europe.

CM says: There's no real denomination wars these days. Catch up bro.
kivi says: You're an Anglican and you say that with a straight face? Of course, there are no knives and clubs, no racks and thumb screws, but that is only because the 'secular' governments learned how to protect themselves from the Christians.


kivi says: Some of the practices of the Pharisees may have changed, there is no Temple, for example. But the continuity is obvious. The Tradition is unbroken. The identity of action and belief is clear. There is no question that Pharisaic Judaism of ) CE and Observant Judaim of 2000 CE are part of the same Tradition.

CM says: I never said otherwise. I agree. You're merely repeating what I said.

It's just taken a wrong turn, that's all.
kivi says: Were, pray tell?

More another time...running short here bro.

__________________

[kivi]

Kivi I'm shocked!

ECUSA=Episcopal Church of hte United States of America

CofE= Church of England

kivi says: I haven't been 'there' for over 30 years: cut me a break.:cool: And all of these acronym's:confused: Back-in-the-day, we spelled them out, like they should be:liturgy:.

[kivi]

[quote=ContraMundum;47912867]Oh, so now God restricts miracles according to race? That's really weird.[quote]

kivi says: CM, I will not allow you to causually confuse race and nationality. Judaism is not a race, Judaism is a nationality and, yes, the Jewish neshumah, as you are fully aware of, even if you don't agree, is different than the Greek neshumah, as the Greek neshumah is different than the Edomite one, etc. Judaism and Torah sees that each nationality has a particular and unique contribution to all of Mankind and each contribution is necessary to the fulfill of the potential of Mankind, both now and in Olam Habah.

[kivi]

kivi says: I'm on:wave:

The problem I have is this: it's been done to death. It's flogging a dead horse and I made a commitment not to argue the law with those of different traditions on this forum, because of the NT mandate not to argue with those who are not ready to actually discuss things with an open mind and heart.

Simply put: a) we disagree on the interpretation of certain portions of the Tanach b) we disagree on the role and authority of oral tradition and c) we disagree on who has the real authority on matters relating to a) and b).

Therefore, all I would do is point out that there are traditions within Judaism that clearly support and validate the NT and the interpretations of the church. You would in reply simply try to prove that a) we don't understand the plain teachings of those sources, not being "ed-um-acated" properly or worse and b) that those citations are "no longer believed, or a minority position proved wrong" or some other skullduggery: eg. commence the Rabbinic pilpul shell game.

So, unless you are serious about this, and are prepared to take time and commit it to this discussion and honestly and humbly ask why Jews are becoming Christians (without compulsion and often without the contact of a "missionary"), we have nothing to say to each other on this topic.



I'm familiar with Midrash. I also know it's often a horse men ride to take it where they wish it to go. I know its purpose.

[kivi]

If Jesus were just a man (i.e. a regular human creature) then, first of all, he would have been born 'into Adam' and therefore be a sinner, just like the rest of us (Rom.3:9-18; Rom.5:12-20; 1Cor.15:20-23). That would disqualify him from being the Messiah.
kivi says: Torah and Judaism is very clear on this matter. Only G-d is G-d and no man can be G-d. By definition, Moshiach is a man.

The Biblical teaching is that whilst the Messiah is human He is not just a regular human creature (i.e. a fallen sinful human creature). Instead The Messiah is YHWH Himself (the Holy One of Israel) incarnate as a perfect human creature, i.e. a perfect human creature just like Adam before the Fall (Isa.43:10-13; 44:6-8 1Jn.4:1-3).
kivi says: Torah and Judaism is very clear on the matter. Moshiach is a human. The dividing line between the Creator and His Creaton is absolute. G-d promised us that He is not a man, will not become a man and abhores any attempt to confuse Him with a man.

The Messiah, first and foremost, Exists as YHWH, the Holy One of Israel since, as such, He is both Eternal and Immutable. Only in a secondary sense does the Messiah exist as the perfect human creature, Jesus of Nazareth.
kivi says: While that may be excellent Christian theology, it is totally anathama to Judaism and Torah.

It was for this reason that the Messiah asked the Jewish religious leaders of His day 'Who's Son is the Christ?' (in other words 'Do you believe that the Messiah is just a regular human creature or do you believe that the Messiah is more than just a regular human creature?' 'Do you believe that the Messiah is just a man (just a descendent of King David) or do you believe that the Messiah is YHWH Himself, incarnate as a man (i.e. the Son of God)'? (Matt.22:41-46).
kivi says: While this scene in the New Testament is most likely something invented by the early Church Fathers, the problem was not with Judaism, but the varrious other competing Christian heresies of the 2nd and 3rd centuries, all of which had differing views/ideas/teachings about the 'nature' of Jesus Christ. Of course, the correct Jewish answer is simple. Moshiach is a human.

From a Biblical perspective
kivi says: Just a note, it is very important that it be acknowledged that no Christian Bible has any validity for Judaism.

, to think of the Messiah as being just a regular human creature is simply not an option.
kivi says: It is the Torah option.
From a Biblical perspective, if the Messiah is just a human creature then He has to be a sinful human creature. From a Biblical perspective, it is only because the Messiah is YHWH Himself, incarnate as a man, that He is Perfect and therefore acceptable as 'the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world'. Simonline.
kivi says: Since it is not the job of Moshiach to 'take away the sins of the world', Simonline's claim is not Torah or Judaism.

[kivi]

Getting back to Jewish roots does not mean becoming Unitarian because Biblical Judaism (as distinct from Rabinical Judaism) whilst implacably Monotheistic is not Unitarian in Nature (see The Jewish Trinity by Yoel Natan http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Trinity-Yoel-Natan/dp/1593300689)

Simonline.


kivi says: Got any examples?:groupray:

[ChavaK]

Oh, so now God restricts miracles according to race? That's really weird.

Since when are Jews a race? And did I say G-d restricts miracles
according to race?
What I said was in response to your comment:

more religious Jews (including some prominent Chief rabbis) are seeing that
the Christian position is not only reasonable, but it is a miracle that can
be lived I read this as saying that it's perfectly okay for Jews to believe in Christianity. And that chief rabbis and religious Jews say so.I was
pointing out this is not the case. Christian beliefs are for
Christians, not Jews




A confusing statement.
What confusion? You say most of your friends went off the derech.
I'm saying in my experience, I haven't seen it....the religious stayed
religious.....but BT's have strayed away from observance, but almost
always return eventually.

Some do, some don't. I wouldn't make a generalisation like thatNo generalization.....it just appeared from your post that you gave up
Judaism because you have a mind for "critical, independent thinking".
That would indicate that Jews who remain observant aren't capable
of such.

Let's not make pre-requisites that God does not. ??


I think we owe it to the people on this forum of other backgrounds to at least acknowledge that they share all the common human traits with us.I have no idea where this comes from- of course we all share common traits. you believe I think less of gentiles?
:confused:

[Torah613]

Bezrat HaShem may I not be one of hte BT's that falls off the darach!

I think most every person with a Jewish soul will eventually make Tshuva. Its just a matter of time. We've been around for 3,000 years plus. We can wait another 10-20 or so.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

of course goyim are human beings. C"S that any Jew here (or elsewhere) should believe differently. Goyim are simply different spiritually, they have different roles to fulfill and different mitzvoth attendant upon them.

Yochanan

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: All I see is the TV preachers fighting each other and sending each other to Hell. All I see is the Anglican communion falling apart [of which you are a part]. All I see is Christians on one side of the police line in front of the abortion clinic and Christians on the other side of the police line, both wishing they could kill each other. All I see is a religion that, if left to its own devices, would tear itself into pieces and everybody else. In the history of Christianity, the only people that Christians hate more than Jews is other Christians. Right now, the 'secular' governments of the 'West' keep the various combatants apart, so the only serious problems is the sharpened tongues. But in the US, many of the writers of the Constituions were old enough to remember that the Puritians loved to execute Quaker missionaries as well as witches. And that the original 'religious liberites' amendment was to the Virginia State Constituion [Jefferson] to stop the Anglicans and Baptists from going after each other's throats. In fact, I think that the growth of 'secular' government was a direct outcome of the 200 year slaughter of Catholic ad Protestant in Europe.

Are you familiar with the moral behind the nursery rhyme "Pussycat, Pussycat"?

Pussycat, pussycat, Where have you been?
I've been to London to visit the Queen.
Pussy cat, pussy cat,What did you do there?
I chased a little mouse right under the chair.


An appropriate rhyme in this case.

[ContraMundum]

Since when are Jews a race? And did I say G-d restricts miracles
according to race?
What I said was in response to your comment:
I read this as saying that it's perfectly okay for Jews to believe in Christianity. And that chief rabbis and religious Jews say so.I was
pointing out this is not the case. Christian beliefs are for
Christians, not Jews




What confusion? You say most of your friends went off the derech.
I'm saying in my experience, I haven't seen it....the religious stayed
religious.....but BT's have strayed away from observance, but almost
always return eventually.
No generalization.....it just appeared from your post that you gave up
Judaism because you have a mind for "critical, independent thinking".
That would indicate that Jews who remain observant aren't capable
of such.
??

I have no idea where this comes from- of course we all share common traits. you believe I think less of gentiles?
:confused:


You've completely misunderstood me, ChavaK. I can't be bothered explaining it.

[cyberlizard]

I'm very curious about this and hope not to strike up any hostility. I've been chatting extensively for a few months now about the Jewish Messiah and what He is going to be and it does not add up to what Yeshua is, or was. Yet I believe that He is the promised Messiah, but I view Him differently than the typical Christian.

So how does one who is born Jewish come to worship Yeshua the same way Christians do? Is it because Christians are the ones who first taught the concept to the person?

I'm surprised at our division still and curious as to how Messianics (Jews, gentiles, etc) come to believe in the Jesus as part of the trinity. It seems natural that a gentile would come to be a Messianic believer who believes in the trinity. It seems natural that a Jew would be a Messianic believer who does not believe in the trinity and who might even think Jesus is just a man, yet the Messiah. I am an oddball and I know that. Being a gentile, it seems natural I would believe the trinity. Without being disrespectful (notice I called myself out as being odd), I find it odd that Messianics Jews would believe in the trinity.

Am I making sense yet?


this thread appears to have gone off track slightly.... seems to have turned into who is a jew / how authentic is judaism argument.

may be there should be a rule of one point of debate per post....


briefly though i want to break that rule in response to something kivi quoted from the book of Numbers.... G-d is not a man that he should lie. This verse is not a verse speaking about the ontology of the creator or his metaphysical substance. Context is everything. G-d is simply telling Balak that He is not full of double standards or false economy... He will do as he says He will. It is a twisting (if that is the right term) of the plain meaning of the text to make it mean something which although it says, is not necessarily what is to be understood.


But as to the OP.... Christian should not be worshipping Yeshua per se'. Yeshua is the man.... it is the incarnate 'word/debar/mamre' who is G-d, the problem arises in christian theology in that Messiah is deemed to have both natures which are completely inseperable. That said, prior to being wrapped in a human cover, the Word was entirely G-d.


Other posts imply that only uneducuated Jews (uneducated in a orthodox theology) become 'christians'. What a complete and utter slight on these people. It would be as good to call them ugly people (remember the old story).

Many orthodox Jews appear to teach that these people are open to suggestion as they are poor or uneducated or in need. What complete nonsense! Many people do fit these categories, however history is scattered by some of the greatest of Jewish minds coming to believe Jesus to be the Messiah (note i do not say become christians) because there should be no reason to change religion. Jesus taught if you see a brother in need you should help him, and the tanakh itself teaches that if you see your brother struggling under a heavy load, or even his donkey you should put out your hand and help. If these supposed poor people are being aided by believers of Christ then we have to ask why there needs are not being met by the community in which they live...



Steve

[Torah613]

Are you familiar with the moral behind the nursery rhyme "Pussycat, Pussycat"?

Pussycat, pussycat, Where have you been?
I've been to London to visit the Queen.
Pussy cat, pussy cat,What did you do there?
I chased a little mouse right under the chair.


An appropriate rhyme in this case.




Contra, we don't all have the pleasure of being subjects to HRM. Frankly, I've never even heard of this rhymn.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

You've completely misunderstood me, ChavaK. I can't be bothered explaining it.

well then, I misunderstood you as well (as did a couple people who no longer post here but do occassionally view the posts). What was your meaning?

Yochanan

[Torah613]

STeve, it is not a slight on those people. In fact we pointed out that there are exceptions. However, generally speaking the many of people who convert to chr*Stianity from judaism do so out of a point of ignorance of Judaism. Now I'm sure there are some people who are well schooled in matters frum who do go off the darach, and saying that there are some who are not well schooled who go off the darach does not negate this. 1+1 does not equal 4.

You will notice however that the rabbinic Jewish population here chose not to address this question directly. why? because it violates the rules of this forum to do so.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

You've completely misunderstood me, ChavaK. I can't be bothered explaining it.

No, please do explain, even if it is a bother. I do not want to
misunderstand what you said....I was quite concerned by
what you wrote because it does not seem in character for you.
So, please please explain...I do not want to misinterpret it.

[visionary]

Rabbis who become believers in Yeshua...

Life began for Leopold Cohn in the little town of Berezna, in the eastern part of Hungary. At the age of seven a great calamity befell the young lad; he lost both his parents in the same year and was left to shift as well as he could for himself. In later years he often recalled how those days of terrible loneliness and bitter struggle for existence taught him to trust in God with all of his heart. It seems natural, then, to find young Cohn, after his confirmation at the age of thirteen, determined to enter upon a course of study with a view to becoming eventually a rabbi and leader among his people. That he gave a good account of himself as a student we conclude from the fact that at the age of eighteen he graduated from the Talmudic academics with a record of high scholarship and with commendations as a worthy teacher of the Law.

Following the completion of his formal studies and the subsequent receipt of smicha or ordination, Rabbi Cohn contracted a very happy marriage and, in keeping with the custom of the time, became installed in his wife’s paternal home, there to devote himself to the further study of the sacred writings.

http://www.shalom.org.uk/Rabbis/cohn.htm

[visionary]

Another Rabbi who believes in Yeshua...

I was a Jewish Rabbi for 35 years. Born in Yugoslavia, I was brought up in a very Orthodox Jewish home. I was taught to say formal prayers and wear tefillin as prescribed for every pious Jew (Deuteronomy 6:8; 11:18).

At the age of I5 I went to the theological school for Rabbis where I studied the Hebrew Bible and Talmudic commentaries and six years later I was ordained as Rabbi in Romania. Afterwards I served in Belgium, England and California.

http://www.shalom.org.uk/Rabbis/levy.htm

[visionary]

Another Rabbi who believes in Yeshua...
Philipp Philips had the good fortune, like so many Jewish people, to descend from a pious family, and at an early age he became acquainted with the literature of his nation. Later he became Rabbi of a Synagogue in New York and one Friday evening he entered the synagogue just at the moment the cantor was singing the words: "O Bridegroom, meet the Bride., let us go forward to bring in the Sabbath . . . Arise from the dust. Put on your beautiful garments, My people., through the son of Jesse from Bethlehem comes salvation to my soul."

http://www.shalom.org.uk/Rabbis/philipps.htm

[visionary]

Such intellegent Jews studious in the Judaism writtings and scholars in their own right as Rabbi... yet they found Yeshua and believed.

Born of Orthodox Jewish parents, my earliest childhood impression was of my parents rising very early in the morning to spend a long time reading the Hebrew prayers. Even in the cold winter, before fires were kindled for their physical comfort, they carried on faithfully these early devotions. Insofar as their knowledge of God was concerned, they were a devout and God-fearing couple.

From the age of five to fifteen my training was in a Jewish school, in Orthodox Judaism. A scholarly Hebrew instructed me in the five books of Moses. I went to the Gymnasium for my classical training and was later apprenticed to a manufacturer, doing office work. My associates at that time led me into the sinful pleasures of the world and, although I attended synagogue and read my Hebrew prayers on the Sabbath, I drifted from the faith of my fathers.

A parental decision to send me to America to pursue my classical education brought me to Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati, Ohio. I graduated in seven years, having meanwhile taken my degrees in letters and Hebrew literature, and four years later my Master’s degree. We studied the Hebrew Scriptures, translated it from Hebrew into the vernacular, went through Jewish history from the beginning to the present day, and learned the Oral law.

After finishing the rabbinical course we were publicly ordained and inducted into the rabbinical office. My first call was to Dayton, Ohio, where I officiated as Rabbi for ten years, during which I made many friends and received many tokens of love which I treasure highly. In my Friday evening lectures I spoke on social, industrial and economic questions, monotheism, ethical culture, the moral systems of the Jews, etc. In the Saturday morning addresses I took weekly sections of the Pentateuch, followed by a corresponding section of the prophets. On Sunday I taught Sunday School from eight in the morning until five in the evening with a one hour intermission for dinner.

http://www.shalom.org.uk/Rabbis/wertheimer.htm

[visionary]

Is it true that only ignorant, unlearned and vulnerable Jews believe in Yeshua?

The testimonies come from the above devout rabbis who were steeped in Judaism from their earliest days and were hostile to the message of Jesus. When each of them examined the evidence for Jesus they found it compelling and, in spite of rejection and personal hardship, they followed the truth.

I would say that this statement is inaccurate. "No Jew who understands even one line of Gemara would ever believe in Jesus." Amos Wittenberg

[ChavaK]

t

Other posts imply that only uneducuated Jews (uneducated in a orthodox theology) become 'christians'. What a complete and utter slight on these people. It would be as good to call them ugly people (remember the old story).

Many orthodox Jews appear to teach that these people are open to suggestion as they are poor or uneducated or in need. What complete nonsense!

It isn't what we have been taught....it is what we have learned for
ourselves from being on Messianic forums, and having seen in
our own lives the people who are attracted to the Messianic faith.



Many people do fit these categories, however history is scattered by some of the greatest of Jewish minds coming to believe Jesus to be the Messiah (note i do not say become christians) because there should be no reason to change religion.

The "greatest Jewish minds"? such as.....?

[kivi]

Are you familiar with the moral behind the nursery rhyme "Pussycat, Pussycat"?

Pussycat, pussycat, Where have you been?
I've been to London to visit the Queen.
Pussy cat, pussy cat,What did you do there?
I chased a little mouse right under the chair.


An appropriate rhyme in this case

kivi says: I googled it and all I came up with is the story of QEI pardoning a cat that had cased a mouse under her throne and startled her. So, if you want to elaborate?

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: I googled it and all I came up with is the story of QEI pardoning a cat that had cased a mouse under her throne and startled her. So, if you want to elaborate?


[/indent]

The Pussycat went to London to see the Queen, with all the pagentry and beautiful culture, architecture and splendour. But it ended up chasing a mouse- 'cos that what Cats do. All it saw was the mouse, and it missed out on the real reason it went to London. In other words, people will see only what they want.

[ContraMundum]

Myth: "True" Orthodox don't change religion.

Try to explore or explain the myth, and the excuses come a'flowin'.

An old favorite quote of mine that makes sense to me:

"Conversion consists in responding to a call from God. A man is not converted at the time he chooses, but at the hour when he receives God's call. When the call is heard, he who receives it has only one thing to do: obey. Paul is 'converted'. Did he abandon the God of Israel? Did he cease to love Israel? It would be absurd to think so. But then? The convert is who feels impelled by an irresistible force to leave a pre-established order and seek his own proper way. It would be easier to continue along the road he was on." (Israel Zolli)

Conversion is not done in yeshivas or seminaries, synagogues or churches. They are the working of God's power.

[Torah613]

Contra, we are not saying that frum people don't go off the darach. It happens occassionally. (I would say unfortunately)

The vast majority of those people however do not become chr*Stians. They become reform Jew, or maybe conservative or reconstructionist. Then those people's grandchildren become chr*stians, because their own sects have abandoned truth and spirituality and so they are searching.

Now, as to why we scoff at the these rabbis stories, well the very first one said he had a confirmation. Do you want to know what kind of Beisai Midrash do confirmation services? oh yes, Reform.

The other one that Chava pointed out is definitly another one to come from a non-frum individual. Seriously, what kind of frum parents sends their child to a reform school? oh yes, none.

I'm not saying these "rabbis" (keep in mind, as a frummie I only accept frum shmitta--how can a reform rabbi posken?) aren't good individuals, heck they might even be real menschin. But frum they are not.

This is precisely what me and chava were talking about a few pages back. Yes some frum people go off the darach, but the vast majority of people who do so to chr*Stianity (or Buddhisim or any other non-Jewish religion) are from a non-frum background. These "rabbis" prooves the case.

Did you know that india is full of Jews? I don't mean the b'nai manashah, I mean ashkenazic Jews who grew up reform. Yep, their over there looking for spirituality. They know so little of their own heritage they think they cannot find a connection to HaShem there so they go off searching. But we haven't forgotten them. Every year, representatives of Chabad-lubavitch and Breslov go searching out these Jews to show them a taste of true Judaism.

Yochanan

[ContraMundum]

This is precisely what me and chava were talking about a few pages back. Yes some frum people go off the darach, but the vast majority of people who do so to chr*Stianity (or Buddhisim or any other non-Jewish religion) are from a non-frum background. These "rabbis" prooves the case.

Like I said, excuses abound. They come thick and fast from the orthodox.

I know a few converts from frum background.

What you guys are insinuating is that "true" Orthodox are too "right" to get thrown off the derech. I would argue that people from frum backgrounds are merely more socially conditioned to resist free investigation of other faiths and traditions etc. This is evidenced even on this forum, as you yourself have said that halacha forbids you check other stuff out.

But still, my point is eternally valid, for everybody. God is the only real converter. A frum, or a Hindu, or a drug addict will become a Christian when God does the work, and only then.

Did you know that india is full of Jews? I don't mean the b'nai manashah, I mean ashkenazic Jews who grew up reform. Yep, their over there looking for spirituality. They know so little of their own heritage they think they cannot find a connection to HaShem there so they go off searching. But we haven't forgotten them. Every year, representatives of Chabad-lubavitch and Breslov go searching out these Jews to show them a taste of true Judaism.

God forbid- could it possibly be that they found Jewish spirituality a little dry and smothering? A little too legalistic? People do have valid reasons for checking out other faiths. I know of one prominent Jew who was raised orthodox, went to yeshiva, and by all intents and purposes could have been a Lubavitcher rabbi. Instead, he's spent the last ten years trying to figure out what fits him, for real. He's not dumb, or emotionally needy, he's remarkably successful in his career and his parents sent him to the right schools. He's just not content with marching to the tune.

[kivi]

The Pussycat went to London to see the Queen, with all the pagentry and beautiful culture, architecture and splendour. But it ended up chasing a mouse- 'cos that what Cats do. All it saw was the mouse, and it missed out on the real reason it went to London. In other words, people will see only what they want.

kivi says: So, to make sure I got it right, what you are saying is that people revert to form, that habit wins, a variation on the 'scorpion and the frog'?

And could you then refresh us on how you want the story to apply to the discussion we are having. Thank you.:)

[ContraMundum]

"'Conversion' can not be a call from G-d for a Jew. G-d forbids a Jew to convert.

Unless of course the Jew is doing the wrong thing, like for example rejecting the Messiah's call on his or her life. Then God is right to call Him to His truth according to His Divine will, as He is presently doing throughout the world.

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: So, to make sure I got it right, what you are saying is that people revert to form, that habit wins, a variation on the 'scorpion and the frog'?

And could you then refresh us on how you want the story to apply to the discussion we are having. Thank you.:)

The application: You only see bad things about Christians. You look for what you want to see.

[Torah613]

Like I said, excuses abound. They come thick and fast from the orthodox.

I know a few converts from frum background.

What you guys are insinuating is that "true" Orthodox are too "right" to get thrown off the derech. I would argue that people from frum backgrounds are merely more socially conditioned to resist free investigation of other faiths and traditions etc. This is evidenced even on this forum, as you yourself have said that halacha forbids you check other stuff out.

But still, my point is eternally valid, for everybody. God is the only real converter. A frum, or a Hindu, or a drug addict will become a Christian when God does the work, and only then.



God forbid- could it possibly be that they found Jewish spirituality a little dry and smothering? A little too legalistic? People do have valid reasons for checking out other faiths. I know of one prominent Jew who was raised orthodox, went to yeshiva, and by all intents and purposes could have been a Lubavitcher rabbi. Instead, he's spent the last ten years trying to figure out what fits him, for real. He's not dumb, or emotionally needy, he's remarkably successful in his career and his parents sent him to the right schools. He's just not content with marching to the tune.

Contra, you are reading way too much into what I'm saying. You are assuming things about what I've said that aren't the case.

Unfortunately (at least from my view) plenty (in my view, way too many) frum people go off the darach, but not to Chr*stianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, or any other faith. They generally go to the nonfrum movements. It is their children and grandchildren who become chr*stians or whatever else. They become such because they have lost the connection by becoming secular and/or nonfrum movement Jews. So they go searching. They find something in chr*stianity that fills that need, at least for a time--maybe even a few generations. But eventually every Jew will find their way back. Nothing can kill the pentele yid.

Also, I never said it was halachically forbidden to investigate other faiths. I said it was halachically forbidden according to a machmir position to have the scriptures of other religions in one's home. Many frum Jews follow a less machmir position which has it that they cannot be on the same shelf as sefirot.

Actually Contra, the people I mentioned are people who felt lost, and did not know Jewish spirituality. They did not know chasidus. Most had never sat down with a talmud, the vast majority had never truly studied it in depth. These were people who had grown up either completely secular, or reform, or reconstructionist. They felt they had no connection, felt a spiritual need, which they tried to fill from non-Torah sources. Chabad and breslov reached out to these people in love to show them that they were still loved and accepted as part of the Jewish people. There is a chabad house in Nepal that serves a seder to 15,000 people every year. Do you think anyone is telling these Jews that they have to sit down (or rather recline) and eat gefilte fish? Is anyone chaining them there until the afikomen is eaten? Are they cuffed to the chairs until the last of the four cups has been drank? of course not. They are merely given the opportunity to fulfill a mitzvah. This is what chasidus is about.

Now regarding the story you told. Taht is sad. That is all.

Regarding these rabbis that were presented as frum, well one had a confirmation service (aka reform) and one went to Hebrew Union (again, reform) as well as a reform highschool. We merely pointed out that these rabbis that were presented were not frum.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

The application: You only see bad things about Christians. You look for what you want to see.

Ok, let me point out some good things then. And then we can see if it changes my mind.

Ok:
1. Chr*stians do a fantastic job with charity. Noway of denying that.
2. Chr*stians preserved many texts (such as plato, aristotle, and euripedes) after the collapse of the Roman Empire thus effectively holding civilization together (Technically,it was the Irish that accomplished this)
3. Catholic hospitals, at least in this part of the country, are cheaper than secular hospitals and have better care to boot.
4. Chr*stian tourism is great for the Israeli economy.
5. I can also think of a whole slew of good chr*Stian folk honored in the Forest of Righteous Gentiles at Yad Vashem.

Does that change my mind on whether or not chr*Stianity is compadable with Judaism? nope.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

Conversion is not done in yeshivas or seminaries, synagogues or churches. They are the working of God's power.

So, this is also true when former Christians convert to Judaism?
;)

[anisavta]

This is just my observation from following the posts in the varied threads. And I probably need to put on my anti-flame suit for this but...
Those who have "converted" from the religion of the christian church to Judiasm seem to have a vendeta against all things Christian because lets face it they were burned badly by either someone or something that happened to them in the name of christianity. I read lots of anger in the posts instead of valid thought provoking study and contemplation. They have lots of christian knowledge and now use it as a weapon against all things christian. They may know their Jewish education because of all the study needed for conversion, but I'm afraid I don't see the Jewish soul. I just see angry ex-christians who are now angry Jewish converts.







http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=[object Object]&pp=ZSYYYYYYOHUS (http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb112undefined&utm_id=7920)

[ChavaK]

Those who have "converted" from the religion of the christian church to Judiasm seem to have a vendeta against all things Christian because lets face it they were burned badly by either someone or something that happened to them in the name of christianity. I read lots of anger in the posts instead of valid thought provoking study and contemplation. They have lots of christian knowledge and now use it as a weapon against all things christian. They may know their Jewish education because of all the study needed for conversion, but I'm afraid I don't see the Jewish soul. I just see angry ex-christians who are now angry Jewish converts.

I think this goes both ways.....I very often see Jews who have converted
to Christianity who then rail against Jews, Judaism, and especially
"Talmudic Jews", "Talmudic Rabbis", and all the "man made rules" they
perceive Judaism has. They hate and despise that which they never knew.

Lots of angry ex-Jews who are not full of Christian love.....ex-Jews who are now angry Christian converts.

Human nature is human nature, no matter which way one is converting.







http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=%5Bobject%20Object%5D&pp=ZSYYYYYYOHUS (http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb112undefined&utm_id=7920)

[anisavta]

I agree with you. People is people and whatever is in their hearts before a conversion can leech over after conversion.
There is a book out called, "Girl Meets G~d" that a friend of mine recommended to me as a great book. It made me so angry that I had to journal my feelings after each chapter so I would not explode. She is a Jewish gal who converted to being an Episcopalian. She tore down her Jewish heritage and traditions but all she did was replace them with Episcopalian traditions and liturgy. For her it was trading one religion for another.
And that's what I mean about the angry christian becoming the angry Jew. There is so much depth to being Jewish beyond the religiosity.

[ContraMundum]

So, this is also true when former Christians convert to Judaism?
;)

Having met a few, I'd say no. I could be wrong, but it seems most covert by use of human reasoning, rather than by Divine intervention. I haven't met a person who was born again who converted to another religion.

[ContraMundum]

This is just my observation from following the posts in the varied threads. And I probably need to put on my anti-flame suit for this but...
Those who have "converted" from the religion of the christian church to Judiasm seem to have a vendeta against all things Christian because lets face it they were burned badly by either someone or something that happened to them in the name of christianity. I read lots of anger in the posts instead of valid thought provoking study and contemplation. They have lots of christian knowledge and now use it as a weapon against all things christian. They may know their Jewish education because of all the study needed for conversion, but I'm afraid I don't see the Jewish soul. I just see angry ex-christians who are now angry Jewish converts.

I think this goes both ways.....I very often see Jews who have converted
to Christianity who then rail against Jews, Judaism, and especially
"Talmudic Jews", "Talmudic Rabbis", and all the "man made rules" they
perceive Judaism has. They hate and despise that which they never knew.

Lots of angry ex-Jews who are not full of Christian love.....ex-Jews who are now angry Christian converts.

Human nature is human nature, no matter which way one is converting.


I agree with both of you.

[ContraMundum]

Unfortunately (at least from my view) plenty (in my view, way too many) frum people go off the darach, but not to Chr*stianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, or any other faith. They generally go to the nonfrum movements. It is their children and grandchildren who become chr*stians or whatever else. They become such because they have lost the connection by becoming secular and/or nonfrum movement Jews. So they go searching. They find something in chr*stianity that fills that need, at least for a time--maybe even a few generations. But eventually every Jew will find their way back. Nothing can kill the pentele yid.

OK..I get ya. And I agree about the pentele yid.

Also, I never said it was halachically forbidden to investigate other faiths. I said it was halachically forbidden according to a machmir position to have the scriptures of other religions in one's home. Many frum Jews follow a less machmir position which has it that they cannot be on the same shelf as sefirot.

I understand, but I would add further that it is impossible to investage a religion properly unless one studies at length their sources of authority. You can't really do it otherwise.

Actually Contra, the people I mentioned are people who felt lost, and did not know Jewish spirituality. They did not know chasidus. Most had never sat down with a talmud, the vast majority had never truly studied it in depth. These were people who had grown up either completely secular, or reform, or reconstructionist. They felt they had no connection, felt a spiritual need, which they tried to fill from non-Torah sources. Chabad and breslov reached out to these people in love to show them that they were still loved and accepted as part of the Jewish people. There is a chabad house in Nepal that serves a seder to 15,000 people every year. Do you think anyone is telling these Jews that they have to sit down (or rather recline) and eat gefilte fish? Is anyone chaining them there until the afikomen is eaten? Are they cuffed to the chairs until the last of the four cups has been drank? of course not. They are merely given the opportunity to fulfill a mitzvah. This is what chasidus is about.

I understand what you are saying. I've seen it too.


Regarding these rabbis that were presented as frum, well one had a confirmation service (aka reform) and one went to Hebrew Union (again, reform) as well as a reform highschool. We merely pointed out that these rabbis that were presented were not frum.

Yochanan

I actually didn't read the stories the others presented. I kinda wasn't really referring to them.

[visionary]

Orthodox Rabbi...

http://mangdiddles.blogspot.com/2008/05/orthodox-rabbi-yeshua-is-messiah.html

[visionary]

Another orthodox Rabbi...
http://www.sidroth.org/site/News2?abbr=art_&page=NewsArticle&id=6535

[visionary]

Yeshua is a Jew. The Yeshua of the gospels is not a one-size-fits-all mystic. To remove him from his Jewish context is to misunderstand him. He lived as Jew, he taught as a Jew, he prayed as a Jew and he died as a Jew. His blood was Jewish blood. The sign above his cross said, "Yeshua of Nazareth, King of the Jews."

[visionary]

My favorite...Rabbi had no courage in life, but final say .. or written words say it all..


http://share.ovi.com/mobile/channel/Called-Watchmen.public

[kivi]

Unless of course the Jew is doing the wrong thing, like for example rejecting the Messiah's call on his or her life. Then God is right to call Him to His truth according to His Divine will, as He is presently doing throughout the world.

kivi says: You don't get to decide. Only G-d decides. You know as well as I do that G-d gave B'nai Israel, the Jews, the obligation of Torah. He has never freed us from that obligation. That obligation still holds. If G-d is a trickster and has been lieing to us for 3300 years, then your 'conversion' might make sense. But G-d is not a trickster and He doesn't lie and neither you or me or any Jew has the right to deny G-d's Will as shown in the Torah True Tradition. We are on the train, ee have no right to get off. Our individual and collective promise at Mt Sinai settled that.

[anisavta]

kivi says: You don't get to decide. Only G-d decides. You know as well as I do that G-d gave B'nai Israel, the Jews, the obligation of Torah. He has never freed us from that obligation. That obligation still holds. If G-d is a trickster and has been lieing to us for 3300 years, then your 'conversion' might make sense. But G-d is not a trickster and He doesn't lie and neither you or me or any Jew has the right to deny G-d's Will as shown in the Torah True Tradition. We are on the train, ee have no right to get off. Our individual and collective promise at Mt Sinai settled that.

Following Torah is a given. He sure didn't trick me into anything.

[kivi]

staff edit

kivis: Since I have no faith in Jesus to distract me, I am forced to look at the historic record as I would in any other area of inquiry. As an historian, I stand in suppott of my assersion: It is impossible to recover the historic Jesus, if there ever was one]

[kivi]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_33_7.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxmk788OGUS) http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_12.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxmk788OGUS) Jewish atheists? They have Jewish souls according to your line of thot. But they deny the very G~d who made them Jews in the first place. It don't compute.





http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb096&pp=ZNxmk788OGUS (http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb096_ZNxmk788OGUS&utm_id=7924)

kivi says: FYI: If you are interested in learning rather than arguing: In Judaism, the idea/concept of personality is much less important than neshuamh: the soul, that part of a human that G-d created that is the foundation of all else. My personallity is like a sand castle built by a child, below the shore line, before hi-tide comes in. My neshuamh is the shore, itself. Tides will wash my personality away, no matter how I am in worship to it, cultivating my likes and dislikes, trying to protect it with dikes and slews. Personality is temporary, knocked down by death. Neshuamh is permanent and passes from personality to personality, from life to life, until Moshiach and Olam Habah will reveal the neshuamh in its true state. To be honest, when Christians talk about their conversion experiences as the axis of spirituality, Jews see it as just another one of the temporary masks of the personality, no more permanent that being a fan of the Steelers or liking brussel sprouts, to be wiped away at the next converson experience. Faith, as such, is a sometimes thing. All Jewish neshumahs will be returned when Moshiach Comes, those lost through the destruction of the Northern Kingdom, those lost through Greek and Roman and Christian assimulation, those lost through modernity. In fact, the converson of a 'ger', today, is just the public acknowledgement of a lost Jewish neshumah coming home.

[anisavta]

Thank you Kivi for posting a thoughful response. No accuastions, no whining about being hurt by bad people.
I want to ponder what you wrote and respond at a later time.

[christianmomof3]

This is a long thread and I just saw it - I have been busy lately and not online much. So, I have not read all of the responses.

However, here is my pov.

The op addressed how could a Jew believe in a Triune God.
To me, that is simple.
Triune means three one.
Therefore, a belief in a Triune God is still a belief in only one God.
It is not a belief in more than one God.
To me it fits perfectly.
So yes, I do believe I am worshipping the Jewish Messiah and understand that Jews think I am not.
I do not believe that anyone should be worshipped other than God, so to me the concept of worshipping Jesus if He is not God does not make sense and is actually idolatrous.

I am going to make a very generalized statement here, but one that holds
true from what I have seen in real life and on forums.
Of course I must say there are always exceptions to every generalization.

In my experience, Jews who become Messianic and Jews who accept the
trinity are Jews who have not been raised religiously. They are almost
universally from secular homes, ...

So they assume the religion they were not raised in has nothing to offer
and go looking for what they think is greener pastures. Being surrounded
by gentile beliefs and gentile spirituality is a great draw to them.
...
But I believe this is pretty rare....most come from homes where they
were not raised in a religions household. They come from a position
of ignorance.
I would say that shows a big problem with the Jewish religion - that so many of it's members are ignorant of it's teachings. However, that happens in Christianity a lot too - there are many more secular Christians in number than there are secular Jews simply because there are so many more Christians. I don't know if the percentages are the same or not though.
That would be an interesting thing to find out.

kivi says: But Torah tells us that once a Jew, always a Jew. A Jew may not stop being a Jew. So, for a Jew to say that they have converted is a denial of the Torah, by definition. Any personal taste in the matter is irrelevant. According to Torah, every Jew's neshuamh was at Mt Siani and every neshuamh said that "We will do and we will understand." That is an oath that no Jew has permission from G-d, Torah, B'nai Israel and their own children to renounce. The temporal belief of a Jew is not as important as that Jew's integrity.
:confused:

I think this goes both ways.....
Human nature is human nature, no matter which way one is converting.

I agree. People who leave any religion leave it because it did not satisfy their needs. They do not leave because they did not learn enough about the religion, but because despite whatever they learned in that religion, they either feel it is wrong, or that something is missing or both.

I do not consider myself a convert.
I never converted to anything.
I am a Jew and I am a born again Christian.
I do not follow a religon.
I follow God.

I did not become a born again Christian because someone taught me that I should be one or because I learned some teachings of Christianity that I liked.

I became a born again Christian because I prayed to God as Jesus and He came into my human spirit and He now dwells in me.

As a Jew, I was not sure if God existed at all.
I did figure that if there was a God - there was only One of Him.

My belief that Jesus is God did not come from any teaching, but first came from my experience of Him dwelling in me.

When a friend shared the gospel and asked me to pray to Jesus, I did hesitate. I knew what that meant as a Jew. I realized that I would be seen as a traitor by my people.
But, I did it anyway.
I figured that if I prayed to Jesus and He was not God, then I was just wasting my breath and a little bit of time and nothing would happen.
I really did not rationally consider that Jesus could be God.
I had no idea what the concept of being born again was or what it meant.
I had no idea what I was doing other than it seemed the right thing to do at the time so I did it.
Then, my friends asked if I would be baptised and I agreed to it and was baptised in their bathtub.
I had no idea what baptism was or meant but I did it and had no idea why.

And it was the most radical life changing thing I have ever done.
I have never been the same since.
I have God living in me.
I know He exists because He is in me and I can contact Him any time I want to. All I need to do is turn to Him and He is there. Sometimes I don't turn to Him, but He is still there and He fills me with His love and peace anyway and turns me to Him.

After being born again, over the past 17 years, I have read the entire Bible (several times - but the first time was the most impressive) and I have studied Christian teachings and learned a lot about the Lord.
I enjoy learning more about Him because the more I know about Him, the more I appreciate and love Him.
I share my experience of Christ with other members of His Body, the church.
I have seen other people come to know the Lord just like I did and experience the same Joy that I did and do.

I believe that God is triune because He is.

[Kris10leigh]

:kiss: Back to topic!:kiss:



I do not believe that anyone should be worshipped other than God, so to me the concept of worshipping Jesus if He is not God does not make sense and is actually idolatrous.
I agree, which is why I do not "worship" Yeshua.







I do not consider myself a convert.
I never converted to anything.
I am a Jew and I am a born again Christian.
I do not follow a religon.
I follow God.

Good for you! :thumbsup:



I did not become a born again Christian because someone taught me that I should be one or because I learned some teachings of Christianity that I liked.

I became a born again Christian because I prayed to God as Jesus and He came into my human spirit and He now dwells in me.

As a Jew, I was not sure if God existed at all.
I did figure that if there was a God - there was only One of Him.

My belief that Jesus is God did not come from any teaching, but first came from my experience of Him dwelling in me.

When a friend shared the gospel and asked me to pray to Jesus, I did hesitate. I knew what that meant as a Jew. I realized that I would be seen as a traitor by my people.
But, I did it anyway.
I figured that if I prayed to Jesus and He was not God, then I was just wasting my breath and a little bit of time and nothing would happen.
I really did not rationally consider that Jesus could be God.
I had no idea what the concept of being born again was or what it meant.
I had no idea what I was doing other than it seemed the right thing to do at the time so I did it.
:cool:

Then, my friends asked if I would be baptised and I agreed to it and was baptised in their bathtub.
:cool::cool:

I had no idea what baptism was or meant but I did it and had no idea why.

And it was the most radical life changing thing I have ever done.
I have never been the same since.
I have God living in me.
I know He exists because He is in me and I can contact Him any time I want to. All I need to do is turn to Him and He is there. Sometimes I don't turn to Him, but He is still there and He fills me with His love and peace anyway and turns me to Him.

After being born again, over the past 17 years, I have read the entire Bible (several times - but the first time was the most impressive) and I have studied Christian teachings and learned a lot about the Lord.
I enjoy learning more about Him because the more I know about Him, the more I appreciate and love Him.
I share my experience of Christ with other members of His Body, the church.


I am so glad you shared this whole story here. It's a beautiful testimony of faith!

[christianmomof3]

thank you

[Talmidah]

In all seriousness myself I prefer to post in the Messianic Judaism forum because I can relax and share my beliefs and my questions without defending my beliefs continually.
For awhile over here there was the same freedom. Several of us Rabbinic and Messianic Jews were able to have lively but respectful conversation. But like night and day when you and Shir came back the fur began to fly again. Shir begins to accuse and degrade anything to do with Yeshua and then you join her and that's when all the other Messianics drop out and back to were it is safe. Glad we're not all pointing fingers over here! :thumbsup:

Again, I find this all very interesting. For years I posted here with no problems. The running joke was "Everybody loves Talmidah" because I loved engaging in discussions, especially with people who believed differently than myself. Sure, I like being around like-minded folks, but I have plenty of them in real life and on other forums. Its interesting to talk with others as well. Go ahead and look through my posts over the past 4 1/2 years...you'll see I'm not quite the monster you like to make me out to be. However, when I realized just what people here thought of "rabbinical Jews", people whom I believed to be my friends, I realized that friends are not to be had on this forum. I've never questioned your claim of discovering that you were Jewish, which is a very common claim among messianics. I've questioned your knowledge of and respect for Jewish law, but never you nor your soul nor your blood. You on the other hand repeatedly bring up the fact that people have converted, when you've been told its against halacha to do so, obviously not caring whom you hurt, even when your words hurt them to the core of their very being (or you say people are whining if they post their hurt), say that they were burned badly by either someone or something that happened to them in the name of christianity when you don't even know the people nor their paths to where they are at now, you claim that They may know their Jewish education because of all the study needed for conversion, but I'm afraid I don't see the Jewish soul. and you have the audacity to say to someone, They have Jewish blood running thru their veins. Do you?. Wow! :o

Have I reported you for any of your snide, hurtful, offensive remarks? Nope, why should I? Those are your opinions, as distasteful and mean spirited as they are. I'm not gonna go run off and ask somebody to make you be quiet. I'd rather respond, then have you respond back to me, etc. At the end of the day, I will still disagree vehemently with you and you with me. And it won't matter. But at least I will know that I was honest and didn't attack the essence of who you are or report you for simply stating what you believe.

Now, by all means, go to your safe haven where Jews are not allowed to speak up or stay here and post. Doesn't matter to me. But please, don't go around saying I and Shir Chadash are troublemakers who veer everything off course, while you guys go on bashing Jews while wanting no repercussions whatsoever. Let's post, disagree and move on. Its just an internet message board after all.

[anisavta]

:kiss: Back to topic!:kiss:

I agree. This thread has been derailed long enough. I apologize for my part in the derailment.

I too thank you for your sharing CMo3.

For me the Brit Chadasha has come alive when I put it all in Jewish perspective. And the scriptures in the Tanach concerning Yeshua are like a light bulb ah ha moment. It all comes alive and together. There is no division between Malachi and Matthew. It is one seemless book. Yeshua's divinity is played out throughout the holy writings.

[Bananna]

Mod Hat On
Due to the scoffing tone and multiple violations yes I'm putting on the big mean mod hat to say

I need to close the thread and we are gonna consider expunging some rude print. Please remember:
UT areas do not exist to make a joke of anyone, or anyones beliefs.

How we treat our fellow human beings shows how devoted we are to the invisible image of our God and maker.

May each of us see ourselves through God's eyes.

[Bananna]

Mod hat on



Sharing of information about one's beliefs, for instance by quoting Bible verses or witnessing, is encouraged. Honest debate and discussion regarding the existence and nature of God is allowed and welcome. Mockery of Christians, Christians beliefs, and the Christian God are not.

You will not promote any faith, belief, or religion other than Christianity. For the purpose of these rules, Christianity is defined by Christian Forums' Statement of Faith.

Flaming, baiting, trolling, or feeding trolls is not allowed. This also applies to groups. In other words, play nice, don't hurt others, nor call them names.

If you think you are being flamed, choose *not* to be offended, but instead take a break, and communicate, rather than escalating or accusing others.

Defamation is not allowed.

Harassment of another member is not allowed.

Threads which are off topic for the individual forums are not allowed, and substantial derails of threads are not looked upon in a favorable fashion.

Mod hat off

[ChavaK]

Orthodox Rabbi...

http://mangdiddles.blogspot.com/2008/05/orthodox-rabbi-yeshua-is-messiah.html


This is inaccurate information and needs to be corrected.
Pearlmutter was never a rabbi