what is the difference in liberal and conservative lutheran?

[christianmomof3]

My mother in law is lutheran and the church she goes to now is ELCA and the one she went to as a child was also. I have been to both and they are similar. How are the conservative ones different?

[DaRev]

My mother in law is lutheran and the church she goes to now is ELCA and the one she went to as a child was also. I have been to both and they are similar. How are the conservative ones different?

It boils down to how they view the Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions.

Confessional ("conservative") Lutherans hold that the Scriptures are the inspired word of God, without error, and the source and norm of teaching in the Church. Confessionals also view the Bible as being relevant for all times and places They also hold a full subscription to the Lutheran Confessions because they are thoroughly Scriptural.

More liberal Lutherans do not necessarily hold that the Bible is inerrant and they hold a more historical view of the Scriptures, meaning that certain parts are only relevant to the time they were written and not necessarily relevant for today. They also do not necessarily hold a full subscription to the Confessions, but only "in so far as" they agree with those parts of Scripture that are relevant.

Confessionals, because of their view of the Scriptures, have a stricter practice concerning the Sacraments based upon Scriptural teaching. Liberals have a more open practice concerning the Sacraments.

[christianmomof3]

Thank you. So, if I walked into a Sunday morning service in a conservative Lutheran church, would I notice any difference in it from the liberal one?

[LilLamb219]

That depends on what type of service they use. The ELCA church I used to go to once upon a time was very similar to the type of liturgical service my LCMS church now has. But, that same ELCA church currently has some weird stuff going on and isn't the same at all any longer.

Both ELCA and LCMS have churches that have liturgical services and contemporary services. Not all LCMS churches are inclined toward contemporary though...I'm glad for that!

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Thank you. So, if I walked into a Sunday morning service in a conservative Lutheran church, would I notice any difference in it from the liberal one?

Hi Christianmomof3, One thing that you will not see is female clergy or women assisting with the distribution of the Sacrament (this is prohibited by Scripture). Usually confessional congregations have a statement in their bulletin regarding our practice of closed (close) communion. Guests must be members of a congregation from our Synod, or a Synod in fellowship with ours to receive the Sacrament. They are to speak with the Pastor or an Elder before service. If someone kneels at the altar rail, and Pastor does not know who they are, they will receive a blessing, but will not be given Christ's body and blood. Mark

[Radiata]

Boy I love these threads.

[christianmomof3]

Hi Christianmomof3, One thing that you will not see is female clergy or women assisting with the distribution of the Sacrament (this is prohibited by Scripture). Usually confessional congregations have a statement in their bulletin regarding our practice of closed (close) communion. Guests must be members of a congregation from our Synod, or a Synod in fellowship with ours to receive the Sacrament. They are to speak with the Pastor or an Elder before service. If someone kneels at the altar rail, and Pastor does not know who they are, they will receive a blessing, but will not be given Christ's body and blood. Mark
Thank you. The ECLA church that I went to last weekend did have a female pastor or speaker - I am not sure what her position was exactly, but she was up there speaking. My mother in law's brother gave the sermon because the regular pastor was out of town, and her brother is not a pastor so maybe the lady speaking was not a pastor either - I am not sure, but she was up there talking.
I have only attended a few Lutheran (ECLA) services and have never been there when they did communion so I am not sure how often it is done in the two Lutheran churches that I have been to.
Do ya'll have female clergy but they just don't do the communion?
By liturgical does that mean that all Lutheran churches have a written out script that they follow each Sunday?
The ones I went to had the whole thing printed up on a bulletin - what is said by who and responsive reading and which songs are sung and when and once they even had the sermon written out on there too with blanks left to fill in.
Do all Lutheran churches have a script like that?
The one I went to last week had page numbers listed by it - which showed that it was all taken out of their book there that had their scripts and hymns in it. They also had another song book that was titled "The Other Songbook" :) My son liked that title.
I was raised in Reform Judaism and we had prayer books and were just told which page to turn to and it was very similarly run to what I saw in the Lutheran churches I went to but I was not sure if it was just those two or if all Lutheran churches are that way and I did not know if conservative and liberal ones ran their services differently from one another.

[Melethiel]

The ELCA is the only Lutheran synod in the USA that has female clergy, and they are full clergy, eg., they do communion as well.

Yes, all Lutheran churches have a "script", as you put it. Some put it in the bulletin, in others, people follow along directly out of the hymnal, which has the liturgy printed in the front before the hymns. The liturgy is generally pretty similar whether the church is liberal or conservative.

[MarkRohfrietsch]

"Thank you. The ECLA church that I went to last weekend did have a female pastor or speaker - I am not sure what her position was exactly, but she was up there speaking. My mother in law's brother gave the sermon because the regular pastor was out of town, and her brother is not a pastor so maybe the lady speaking was not a pastor either - I am not sure, but she was up there talking."

In confessional Churches when Pastor is absent usually a Deacon (male lay Minister) or one or more Elders will lead the service with NO Communion.

"I have only attended a few Lutheran (ECLA) services and have never been there when they did communion so I am not sure how often it is done in the two Lutheran churches that I have been to."

Communion is usually celebrated at least monthly, and often every Sunday.

"Do ya'll have female clergy but they just don't do the communion?
By liturgical does that mean that all Lutheran churches have a written out script that they follow each Sunday?"

No female clergy in Confessional Churches. More liberal churches such as ELCA do, and they do celebrate Communion.

"The ones I went to had the whole thing printed up on a bulletin - what is said by who and responsive reading and which songs are sung and when and once they even had the sermon written out on there too with blanks left to fill in. "

Most do follow a formal order of service. For communion it is called "Divine Service". While there are different settings they follow the format of the historic western Mass. While outwardly very similar the the Roman Catholic Mass, the Lutheran formula has revised the Mass by removing all of the parts that conflict with Scripture. The liturgy can be simple and read responsively, or can be sung. Settings will vary from contemporary to plainsong and Anglican chant. The officiating Pastor usually wears vestments similar the those used in the Roman Church.

"Do all Lutheran churches have a script like that?"

Not all, but most.

"The one I went to last week had page numbers listed by it - which showed that it was all taken out of their book there that had their scripts and hymns in it. They also had another song book that was titled "The Other Songbook" :) My son liked that title.
I was raised in Reform Judaism and we had prayer books and were just told which page to turn to and it was very similarly run to what I saw in the Lutheran churches I went to but I was not sure if it was just those two or if all Lutheran churches are that way and I did not know if conservative and liberal ones ran their services differently from one another."

Our Christian tradition has strong ties to the Judaic traditions. After all Jesus Christ is the Messiah that God promised, and who was foretold beginning in Genesis and was prophesied throughout the Old Testament.

If you are interested in listening to historic traditional Liturgical Lutheran services here is a link to Concordia Seminary in Ft Wayne where they have recorded their daily services each week.

http://www.ctsfw.edu/chapel/audio.php

Wed. Service is usually "Divine Service" (Communion). I believe that this week it is Setting Three from Lutheran Service Book. A very traditional service. We use this one most often in our Lutheran Church Canada Congregation.

I hope you enjoy. Please feel free to ask us what ever you like.

Blessings and Peace.

Mark

[Tofferer]

So, would LCMC be conservative, suedo-conservative, or liberal? Please only those who are truly educated about this. IF deemed liberal, I will guess I don't belong here.

[MarkRohfrietsch]

So, would LCMC be conservative, suedo-conservative, or liberal? Please only those who are truly educated about this. IF deemed liberal, I will guess I don't belong here.

LCMS and LCC according to their (our) constitution(s) and bylaws are confessional. Regarding individuals and individual congregations within the synod; judge them in the light of Scripture, and our Confessions. In my previous LCC Congregation, less than 10 members out of about 300 know what the book of concord contains. Less than half have read or tried to read it. In my present congregation, a fair assessment would be that one in ten would be able to list some of the contents of the BOC. There are four of us out of about 125 who have read the BOC, and only two of us who reference it regularly (besides our Pastor). Sad, sad comment. We are trying to change this, but how conservative can people be when they don't even know what being conservative is.:sigh:

Mark

[christianmomof3]

LCMS and LCC according to their (our) constitution(s) and bylaws are confessional. Regarding individuals and individual congregations within the synod; judge them in the light of Scripture, and our Confessions. In my previous LCC Congregation, less than 10 members out of about 300 know what the book of concord contains. Less than half have read or tried to read it. In my present congregation, a fair assessment would be that one in ten would be able to list some of the contents of the BOC. There are four of us out of about 125 who have read the BOC, and only two of us who reference it regularly (besides our Pastor). Sad, sad comment. We are trying to change this, but how conservative can people be when they don't even know what being conservative is.:sigh:

Mark
What is the book of Concord?:confused:

[BigNorsk]

Concord means argreement, the Christian Book of Concord are those things, creeds, confessions, and explanations which the Evangelical Christian Church came to agreement on over a period of time. The Book of Concord was compiled in 1580.

It contains the three Creeds, Apostles, Nicene, Anthanasian.
The Augsburg Confession
The Apology of the Augsburg Confession.
The Smalcald Articles including the Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope
The Small Catechism
The Large Catechism
The Epitome of the Formula of Concord and
The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord.

You can read an English translation at www.bookofconcord.org (http://www.bookofconcord.org)

There is also the Historic Introductions which give a lot of background information.

Marv

[DaRev]

Concord means argreement, the Christian Book of Concord are those things, creeds, confessions, and explanations which the Evangelical Christian Church came to agreement on over a period of time. The Book of Concord was compiled in 1580.

It contains the three Creeds, Apostles, Nicene, Anthanasian.
The Augsburg Confession
The Apology of the Augsburg Confession.
The Smalcald Articles including the Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope
The Small Catechism
The Large Catechism
The Epitome of the Formula of Concord and
The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord.

You can read an English translation at www.bookofconcord.org (http://www.bookofconcord.org)

There is also the Historic Introductions which give a lot of background information.

Marv

The Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope has erroneously been considered part of the Smalcald Articles. It actuality, it was penned by Melanchthon as an addendum to the Augsburg Confession and is considered a separate document. The BoC contains 10 individual documents.

[christianmomof3]

Concord means argreement, the Christian Book of Concord are those things, creeds, confessions, and explanations which the Evangelical Christian Church came to agreement on over a period of time. The Book of Concord was compiled in 1580.

It contains the three Creeds, Apostles, Nicene, Anthanasian.
The Augsburg Confession
The Apology of the Augsburg Confession.
The Smalcald Articles including the Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope
The Small Catechism
The Large Catechism
The Epitome of the Formula of Concord and
The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord.

You can read an English translation at www.bookofconcord.org (http://www.bookofconcord.org)

There is also the Historic Introductions which give a lot of background information.

Marv
thank you. so do only Lutherans read it then? I don't recall seeing it in Christian book stores.

[IowaLutheran]

thank you. so do only Lutherans read it then? I don't recall seeing it in Christian book stores.

Most likely only Lutherans read it, with a few occasional exceptions.

Christian bookstores often have a copy of Luther's Small Catechism, which is a part of the Book of Concord, but not the entire Book of Concord.

[Melethiel]

Well, I don't know what the Christian bookstores are like in your area, but the ones around here, you'll only ever find evangelical stuff, never even any solid church history or theology. So I'm not surprised you've never seen it.

[BigNorsk]

thank you. so do only Lutherans read it then? I don't recall seeing it in Christian book stores.

Pretty much just Lutherans, and a minority of Lutherans at that, actually read the Book of Concord.

Marv

[christianmomof3]

Why do not many people read it?

I looked at the link and found this which seemed odd to me:


When the baptized act against their conscience, allowing sin to rule in them, they grieve the Holy Spirit in them and lose Him [Ephesians 4:30 (http://www.biblegateway.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Ephesians+4:30)]. They do not need to be rebaptized. But they must be converted again. The heart must perceive sin, dread God's wrath, turn from sin, see and accept the promise of grace in Christ... (paragraphs 67-70)

What does that mean they must be converted again? :confused: I thought to convert was to change to a different religion.
Obviously when we sin we should repent, which would be what is described in the next sentence as perceiving sin, and turning from it, but I see that as repentance, not reconversion. If you have to convert again every time ya'll sin, ya'll must be converting over and over again all day long.

[Till]

Pretty much just Lutherans, and a minority of Lutherans at that, actually read the Book of Concord.

Marv



Concorde??

They stopped flying them, didn't they? I kind of like the model one they have in front of Heathrow aiport.

So there is a book out now, is there? What's it got to do with Lutherans?

[Tofferer]

I have two variants of the Book of Concord. The "Reader's Edition" is really well put together. I would highly recommend it.

[IowaLutheran]

Why do not many people read it?

I looked at the link and found this which seemed odd to me:


What does that mean they must be converted again? :confused: I thought to convert was to change to a different religion.
Obviously when we sin we should repent, which would be what is described in the next sentence as perceiving sin, and turning from it, but I see that as repentance, not reconversion. If you have to convert again every time ya'll sin, ya'll must be converting over and over again all day long.

The root meaning of conversion is "turning around." Does that help?

[DaRev]

"Conversion" refers to coming to the faith, which is done only by the power of the Holy Spirit. When one rejects the Holy Spirit by remaining in their sin (even after baptism) they have removed themselves from the faith. To be "converted again" means to be brought back to the faith through contrition and repentance, which are also works of the Spirit.

[porterross]

Pretty much just Lutherans, and a minority of Lutherans at that, actually read the Book of Concord.

Marv


Actually, I've encountered quite a few Anglicans and Episcopalians who have studied at least parts of the BoC and have a high regard for it. I've wondered if it's required at their seminaries, which is highly likely if they're taught the history of the Reformation.

[Tetzel]

Thank you. So, if I walked into a Sunday morning service in a conservative Lutheran church, would I notice any difference in it from the liberal one?

As one who has been in the situation of growing up ELCA and converting to LCMS, I'd say you probably wouldn't notice.

The first time I went to an LCMS service, it was the same liturgy as LBW setting 2. Here are the differences.
1: creeds say "very" and "Christian" in place of "true" and "catholic" (like LBW has an asterisk after catholic, LW (LCMS Hymnal made in concert with LBW originally) has an asterisk for Christian)
2: Communion prayers are restricted to the shorter forms.
3. Communion is close instead of open.

[usafbrat64]

I have to agree with Tetzel, that with the exception of female pastors, you really don't see much difference in the service. (Again, it depends upon the congregations) It's not until you start looking at teachings and doctrine that you notice the difference.

At one point I was on the line.. stay with LCMS or go to ELCA. In my politics and life I'm much more liberal than a lot of LCMS members, and it seemed more in line with ELCA. But, then they admitted women into the seminary, and my conservative, confessional self raised it's head.

And you will find the same among some ELCA members. They've accepted that women can be ordained, but as long as one doesn't show up at their congregation, they're fine with it. Because on the surface it all does still to be pretty much the same.