How do I know

[tuppence3]

How do I know if Im spirit filled? I know I have God spirit in me cause Im saved but I dont think Im spirit fill

[JimfromOhio]

God’s tough lessons have taught me what Spirit-filled really means and how to practice Spirit-filled virtues. In Ephesians 5:18 where the present tense of the verb in Greek means: "Keep on being filled with the Spirit." Being filled with the Holy Spirit means I am to refrain from using my rights and privileges I am entitled to by God's grace because I desire to do God's will out of love and obedience as if I am after God's own heart.

Ephesians 3:17-19 I (Paul) pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

[Jimbeaux]

How do I know if Im spirit filled? I know I have God spirit in me cause Im saved but I dont think Im spirit fill

Why would any believer think they are not Spirit-filled unless someone had told them they were not? Here are two verses that say every believer is filled with the Spirit along with everything else they need for life and godliness:
His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. (2 Peter 1.3)

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. (Eph. 1.3)
You have probably been told that you are not Spirit-filled because you have not spoken in tongues or “manifested” some gift of the Spirit or felt some unusual emotional response. What that belief has done for you is made you feel inadequate and unusable by God until you reach some level of spirituality. The Holy Spirit would then not longer be a gift but something you have deserved because you have earned it.

Causing people to think they are not Spirit-filled until they first reach some level of spirituality robs the Church of Spirit-filled people who are able to do the works of Christ but who do not think they are because they have been taught that they have yet to receive every spiritual blessing in Christand that they do not have everything they need for life and godliness.

It is ironic to me that Pentecostals, who believe in the power of God in a person’s life, have a doctrine that disqualifies qualified people from utilizing their giftings until they speak in tongues (or do something else) first--a doctrine of men that has no validation in scripture.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Optimax]

How do I know if Im spirit filled? I know I have God spirit in me cause Im saved but I dont think Im spirit fill

The Spirit of God is in you if you are saved.

Jesus told of an endowment of power that would be available.

The purpose was for being a witness for Him.

Ac 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
KJV

The promise was fulfilled as recorded in Acts 2:1-4.

Ac 2:1-4
2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
KJV

Notice in verse four that when this event occurs they were "filled with the Holy Ghost" and spoke in tongues.

The Spirit of God is within us when we are born again.

Then if a Christian desires the Holy Spirit will come upon them.

Ac 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
KJV


The result of the Spirit coming upon us is that we are filled with the Spirit and speak with tongues.

We are then in a position to witness the Spirit is available to come upon us and we receive power to witness. That witness may be to speak to someone, to pray for someone, etc.

This power for witness means we do not have to depend nor are we limited to our own ability, Thru this power we are able to witness with the help of the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit only stays upon us for the duration of time required to complete the "witness". He does not stay continually upon us.

However He is continually within us after we are born again.

This is a brief explanation of the difference between the Spirit within and the Spirit upon a Christian.

[dkbwarrior]

How do I know if Im spirit filled? I know I have God spirit in me cause Im saved but I dont think Im spirit fill

You simply ask for it:

9And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
-Luke 11:9-13


And then believe that you recieve it:

24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
-Mark 11:24

Faith believes that it receives when it prays. Faith comes from the Word, from a promise of God.

17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
-Romans 10:17

Jesus promised that the Father would give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him. You believe that God is not a liar, right? You believe that He is faithful, right? Then ask Him, and believe that he will give you what you ask for.


Then, you need to act on your faith.

Here is a rather long passage of scripture, but I encourage you to read the whole thing. It is very important to understanding how to act on your faith:

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
-James 2:19-26

In the first example, James says that when you give a faith command, like "be ye warmed and filled", then act like this is what God wants. If you have food and clothing, then feed and clothe them. That way you are acting like you actually believe what you are saying.

In the second example, Abraham believed the promise that God gave him saying that Isasc would be his heir. So when God told him to go and sacrifice Isaasc, he obeyed, (believing God would raise him from the dead after he had sacrificed him to fulfill His promise-Heb 11).

In the third example, Rahab the harlot believed the promise that God had given to Isreal that they would destroy her city. She acted on this faith, by letting the spies out over the wall. (I might throw in here, that she didn't march down to city hall and tell them to surrender, that would have got her killed. One has to use wisdom when acting on their faith, otherwise it just becomes foolishness, or even dangerous.)


Act on it by speaking:

In the New Testament, when someone was baptized in the Holy Spirit, they spoke in tongues and/or prophesied.

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
-Acts 2:1-4

So, once you have prayed and asked for God to baptize you/fill you with the Spirit, and have believed you receive it, then simply open your mouth and start speaking. People that are filled with the Spirit can speak in tongues, so act like it. It is as simple as that.

I know, I know. If feels funny, like you are just making up gobbeldy goop, talking baby talk. Wouln't God just make me start speaking in tongues when the Spirit fills me?

No. He wont. This is not spiritism, or automatic writing, or ouji boards.

God is a gentleman, He wont take control of your body or your senses. Everything from God is done by faith. You have to open your mouth and start speaking, even if it seems like it is only baby talk, and gobbeldy goop, believing that the Spirit is giving utterance.

This isn't something you know, it is something you believe. So act like it.

I have worked with many people that wanted to be filled with the Spirit. Many that had problems receiving, many that said that they couldn't speak in tongues. I have yet to encounter one that couldn't speak in tongues.

Let me finish by saying that though tongues is the manifestation of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, the inverse is not true. That is, just because someone has not yet spoken in tongues does not mean that they are not Baptized in the Holy Spirit. It just means that no one has properly instructed them in this matter, and though they can speak in tongues, they don't yet know they can speak in tongues.

I hope this helps.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

Using God's power through Grace that we should always keep filling the Holy Spirit so that we are able to act and react any given situations. "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 12:9). Love is an act of endless forgiveness. If we want the advantages of love, then we must be willing to take the risks of love. And that requires vulnerability. To be loved by God, and to know it and live it, is to be healed spiritually indeed. Real fulfillment relates to the purpose for which we were made, to be in reference to God, to be in personal relationship with Him, to be fulfilled by Him, and thus to have an affirmation of life. When a Christian who is saved by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, this Christian is living in a new Creature with holy conscience rather than sinful conscience. The Word of God is tuned to speak to our inner conscience and demonstrates with spiritual convictions. I want to have the peace of conscience, not war within when I sinned.

With the help from the Holy Spirit, we have the understanding of what pleases God; our thoughts, our desires, our affections that are transformed in over time. A Christian to have the peace of conscience, not war within because if I rely on "self", or "self-will", I am grieving the Holy Spirit; "not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30).

[dkbwarrior]

Using God's power through Grace that we should always keep filling the Holy Spirit so that we are able to act and react any given situations. "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 12:9). Love is an act of endless forgiveness. If we want the advantages of love, then we must be willing to take the risks of love. And that requires vulnerability. To be loved by God, and to know it and live it, is to be healed spiritually indeed. Real fulfillment relates to the purpose for which we were made, to be in reference to God, to be in personal relationship with Him, to be fulfilled by Him, and thus to have an affirmation of life. When a Christian who is saved by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, this Christian is living in a new Creature with holy conscience rather than sinful conscience. The Word of God is tuned to speak to our inner conscience and demonstrates with spiritual convictions. I want to have the peace of conscience, not war within when I sinned.

With the help from the Holy Spirit, we have the understanding of what pleases God; our thoughts, our desires, our affections that are transformed in over time. A Christian to have the peace of conscience, not war within because if I rely on "self", or "self-will", I am grieving the Holy Spirit; "not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30).

Ummm, how is that addressing the OP?

Peace...

[Jimbeaux]

You simply ask for it:

*****

I believe we ask for it when we ask the Lord to save us. Whether we consciously ask for the Holy Spirit or not we are given it, in its fullness, the instant we become Christ’s.
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor. 12.13)

His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, (2 Peter 1.3)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, (Ephesians 1.3)
I am wondering what it is about these verses that confuse Pentecostals? Either we were baptized by/in/with the Spirit when we became a member of the body of Christ or we were not. Either we were given “all thing that pertain to life and godliness” (think, infilling of the Holy Spirit) or we were not. Either we have been “blessed with every spiritual blessing” or we have not.

When we became Christians we were given the whole package, everything we needed to be sons and servants. We were not (and there is no scripture that would say it) given what we need in increments as we reach a certain point of surrender or commitment or spirituality or whatever. The Holy Spirit is a gift, not a reward or wage. As DK says, we get it by asking for it and we ask for it when we ask Jesus to come into our life.

Why would God withhold the fullness of His Spirit to any believer, especially those who need it most, new Christians? It doesn’t make sense.

And by telling people that they are not filled with the Spirit when the are because they have not met some level of spirituality (spoken in tongues, etc.) deprives them and the body of Christ of all that God has already given them.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Faithful Love]

When I was saved, the Holy Spirit came and took up residence in me. But, I was not yet imbued with power. I had to ask for that, as dkbwarrior stated.

Once I received it, it was glorious and a very distinct transformation took place! :bow:

There is a reason they all gathered in the upper room and waited; that was to be given the power of the Holy Spirit. It is a definite occurence separate from being saved, and it is available today!

Just ask, believe you receive and He is faithful!

[JimfromOhio]

Ummm, how is that addressing the OP?

Peace...
See Jim's post # 8 :wave:

[JimfromOhio]

I believe we ask for it when we ask the Lord to save us. Whether we consciously ask for the Holy Spirit or not we are given it, in its fullness, the instant we become Christ’s.
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor. 12.13)

His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, (2 Peter 1.3)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, (Ephesians 1.3)
I am wondering what it is about these verses that confuse Pentecostals? Either we were baptized by/in/with the Spirit when we became a member of the body of Christ or we were not. Either we were given “all thing that pertain to life and godliness” (think, infilling of the Holy Spirit) or we were not. Either we have been “blessed with every spiritual blessing” or we have not.

When we became Christians we were given the whole package, everything we needed to be sons and servants. We were not (and there is no scripture that would say it) given what we need in increments as we reach a certain point of surrender or commitment or spirituality or whatever. The Holy Spirit is a gift, not a reward or wage. As DK says, we get it by asking for it and we ask for it when we ask Jesus to come into our life.

Why would God withhold the fullness of His Spirit to any believer, especially those who need it most, new Christians? It doesn’t make sense.

And by telling people that they are not filled with the Spirit when the are because they have not met some level of spirituality (spoken in tongues, etc.) deprives them and the body of Christ of all that God has already given them.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.



~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain


I agree. My own spiritual growth grows because the Holy Spirit (God) is in me and not because I am following special rules or following faith's methods of being spiritual. When we are around with other Christians or in our own local Church, Its a reminder that the life of the church is made up of spiritual attitudes and spiritual motivations, spiritual graces that come from deep within the community. Spiritually, the Holy Spirit, the eternal Spirit of God,who dwelled in Jesus Christ, who empowers the Church, Who is the source of our life in Christ.

[Jimbeaux]

When I was saved, the Holy Spirit came and took up residence in me. But, I was not yet imbued with power. I had to ask for that, as dkbwarrior stated.

Once I received it, it was glorious and a very distinct transformation took place! :bow:

There is a reason they all gathered in the upper room and waited; that was to be given the power of the Holy Spirit. It is a definite occurence separate from being saved, and it is available today!

Just ask, believe you receive and He is faithful!

My guess is, what happened to me happened to you. When you came to Christ, (most likely in a Pentecostal church), the Holy Spirit gave you everything you needed for life and godliness but then some well meaning and Pentecostal-indoctrinated person told you the Spirit hadn’t given you everything (despite what the Bible says (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%201.3;%20Eph%201.3;1%20cor.%2012.13;&version=50;)) because you had not yet spoken in tongues (or whatever) and, because you trusted them, you believed that you had to seek (ask) for something more. Had you known from the start that you were completely spiritually enabled right from the start, you would not have wasted so much time “tarrying” (as they used to say) for something you already had or “asking” for something you already received when you “asked” God to save you.

Maybe if P/Cs would teach people, as scripture does, that they are fully empowered Christians, gifted with every spiritual enablement, a fully-equipped child of God from the day they begin their walk we would see them more effective in ministry. If I am told to construct a house but not told that I have been given the tools to do it, nothing would get done or I would waste a lot of time and energy and money buying the tools I actually already have.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[JimfromOhio]

My guess is, what happened to me happened to you. When you came to Christ, (most likely in a Pentecostal church), the Holy Spirit gave you everything you needed for life and godliness but then some well meaning and Pentecostal-indoctrinated person told you the Spirit hadn’t given you everything (despite what the Bible says (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%201.3;%20Eph%201.3;1%20cor.%2012.13;&version=50;)) because you had not yet spoken in tongues (or whatever) and, because you trusted them, you believed that you had to seek (ask) for something more. Had you known from the start that you were completely spiritually enabled right from the start, you would not have wasted so much time “tarrying” (as they used to say) for something you already had or “asking” for something you already received when you “asked” God to save you.

Maybe if P/Cs would teach people, as scripture does, that they are fully empowered Christians, gifted with every spiritual enablement, a fully-equipped child of God from the day they begin their walk we would see them more effective in ministry. If I am told to construct a house but not told that I have been given the tools to do it, nothing would get done or I would waste a lot of time and energy and money buying the tools I actually already have.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



:thumbsup:

[dkbwarrior]

I believe we ask for it when we ask the Lord to save us. Whether we consciously ask for the Holy Spirit or not we are given it, in its fullness, the instant we become Christ’s.
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor. 12.13)

It seems that you are not really reading what you are quoting above. That scripture is talking about being baptized in the body of Christ, (note the portion that I highlighted above), not being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Not to mention, if they were the same, then they could not happen separately. But we know that they can happen separately because of this passage:

5Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8And there was great joy in that city.
9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
-Acts 8:5-17



His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, (2 Peter 1.3)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, (Ephesians 1.3)

I am wondering what it is about these verses that confuse Pentecostals? Either we were baptized by/in/with the Spirit when we became a member of the body of Christ or we were not. Either we were given “all thing that pertain to life and godliness” (think, infilling of the Holy Spirit) or we were not. Either we have been “blessed with every spiritual blessing” or we have not.

When we became Christians we were given the whole package, everything we needed to be sons and servants. We were not (and there is no scripture that would say it) given what we need in increments as we reach a certain point of surrender or commitment or spirituality or whatever. The Holy Spirit is a gift, not a reward or wage. As DK says, we get it by asking for it and we ask for it when we ask Jesus to come into our life.

I agree with you that all these things are given to us when we make Jesus our Lord, (you almost sound WOF here Jim)! But we still have to ask for them believing that we receive to see them manifest in our lives.

If we don't have to appropriate these things by faith, ie, believing we recieve them, them why did James say this:

5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
-James 1:5-7

Now, is wisdom one of these 'all things' that God has given to us? Well then, if so, why does James specifically tell us to ask God for it, and to ask in faith? He even goes on to say that if you waver in your faith for it, then you wont get it. Isn't that funny, for something that according to you, we don't have to ask for?

God has given us everything that we need. Most certainly. He has given them to us in the form of promises.

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
-2 Peter 1:3-4

But we must believe that we receive them, without wavering, in order to have them. That is why the writer says:

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)
-Hebrews 10:23

Peace...

[Faithful Love]

My guess is, what happened to me happened to you. When you came to Christ, (most likely in a Pentecostal church), the Holy Spirit gave you everything you needed for life and godliness but then some well meaning and Pentecostal-indoctrinated person told you the Spirit hadn’t given you everything (despite what the Bible says (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%201.3;%20Eph%201.3;1%20cor.%2012.13;&version=50;)) because you had not yet spoken in tongues (or whatever) and, because you trusted them, you believed that you had to seek (ask) for something more. Had you known from the start that you were completely spiritually enabled right from the start, you would not have wasted so much time “tarrying” (as they used to say) for something you already had or “asking” for something you already received when you “asked” God to save you.

Maybe if P/Cs would teach people, as scripture does, that they are fully empowered Christians, gifted with every spiritual enablement, a fully-equipped child of God from the day they begin their walk we would see them more effective in ministry. If I am told to construct a house but not told that I have been given the tools to do it, nothing would get done or I would waste a lot of time and energy and money buying the tools I actually already have.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain




Actually, what happed to me was NOT AT ALL like what happened to you. :sorry:

I did not even step foot into a pentecostal church until after I had been saved for 4-5 years. I was raised in a mainline denomination and never heard of being saved, let alone being filled with the Holy Spirit.

When I got saved (alone, in my house), I had no clue there was more. Fortunately, I then read the Word and found out the truth. I asked for His power and got it, because He is good that way!

You can argue all you want, but once one has tasted and seen it cannot be taken away from them.

[Jimbeaux]

Actually, what happed to me was NOT AT ALL like what happened to you. :sorry:

I did not even step foot into a pentecostal church until after I had been saved for 4-5 years. I was raised in a mainline denomination and never heard of being saved, let alone being filled with the Holy Spirit.

When I got saved (alone, in my house), I had no clue there was more. Fortunately, I then read the Word and found out the truth. I asked for His power and got it, because He is good that way!

You can argue all you want, but once one has tasted and seen it cannot be taken away from them.

Okay, so our experiences are different. But I would say you finally woke up and discovered what you already had; not what you didn’t have.

BTW, I notice from your profile that you claim to be “Pentecostal”, so I understand where you are coming from. I once wuz one myself.

And FYI I was filled/baptized with the Spirit (according to the Pentecostal model) in an AOG in 1964 after months of tarrying, cajoling, asking, begging, feeling inadequate like I was not fully a member of the club. Finally I “spoke in tongues” (or something similar to it) and was immediately inducted into the Pentecostal church I was attending. Up until that time I was not quite up-to-par, not quite “full” gospel, by their standard. What I did not know, because they did not tell me (because they were not taught themselves), is that I had already been baptized and filled with the Spirit the day I became a part of the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12.13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor.%2012.13;&version=50;)) and all that “coming to the altar” and “tarrying” was really a waste of time—I could already heal the sick, speak in tongues, prophesy, receive revelation, etc. Fact is, I didn’t do any of that because they told me I couldn’t, until …

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[JimfromOhio]

It seems that you are not really reading what you are quoting above. That scripture is talking about being baptized in the body of Christ, (note the portion that I highlighted above), not being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Not to mention, if they were the same, then they could not happen separately. But we know that they can happen separately because of this passage:

5Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8And there was great joy in that city.
9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
-Acts 8:5-17



I agree with you that all these things are given to us when we make Jesus our Lord, (you almost sound WOF here Jim)! But we still have to ask for them believing that we receive to see them manifest in our lives.

If we don't have to appropriate these things by faith, ie, believing we recieve them, them why did James say this:

5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
-James 1:5-7

Now, is wisdom one of these 'all things' that God has given to us? Well then, if so, why does James specifically tell us to ask God for it, and to ask in faith? He even goes on to say that if you waver in your faith for it, then you wont get it. Isn't that funny, for something that according to you, we don't have to ask for?

God has given us everything that we need. Most certainly. He has given them to us in the form of promises.

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
-2 Peter 1:3-4

But we must believe that we receive them, without wavering, in order to have them. That is why the writer says:

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)
-Hebrews 10:23

Peace...
Being a Christian as Paul wrote, "For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come" (1Tim 4:8). In my life, I have learned to trust every situation to God's sovereign control. "God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work." (2 Corinthians 9:8). We are to believe and follow Christ in all things, including His Words about Scripture. With that thought, I will always remember in Mark 10:27 Jesus said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God." With man's faith and spiritual maturity, it will not be possible because having faith in God who is able to do EVERYTHING and ALL THINGS according to His will, Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose.

[Jimbeaux]

It seems that you are not really reading what you are quoting above. That scripture is talking about being baptized in the body of Christ, (note the portion that I highlighted above), not being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Not to mention, if they were the same, then they could not happen separately. But we know that they can happen separately because of this passage:

5Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8And there was great joy in that city.
9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
-Acts 8:5-17



I agree with you that all these things are given to us when we make Jesus our Lord, (you almost sound WOF here Jim)! But we still have to ask for them believing that we receive to see them manifest in our lives.

If we don't have to appropriate these things by faith, ie, believing we recieve them, them why did James say this:

5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
-James 1:5-7

Now, is wisdom one of these 'all things' that God has given to us? Well then, if so, why does James specifically tell us to ask God for it, and to ask in faith? He even goes on to say that if you waver in your faith for it, then you wont get it. Isn't that funny, for something that according to you, we don't have to ask for?

God has given us everything that we need. Most certainly. He has given them to us in the form of promises.

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
-2 Peter 1:3-4

But we must believe that we receive them, without wavering, in order to have them. That is why the writer says:

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)
-Hebrews 10:23

Peace...

Theology comes from the didactic part of scripture, from the Epistles, not from narrative (Matthew-Acts). Narrative’s aim is to tell a story, not construct a theology. Didactic scripture constructs a theology, not tell a story. Each genre has its own purpose. As far as I am aware, only Pentecostals (for obvious reasons) want to construct a theology solely from narrative scripture. The doctrine of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial physical evidence of speaking in tongues come solely from the Gospels and Acts, not from the didactic/epistemic teaching of the Apostles.

It is interesting that the only mention of the Baptism of/in/by/with (take your pick) the Holy Spirit outside the narratives is 1 Cor. 12.13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2012.13;&version=50;). There is no mention of a Baptism of/in/by/with the Holy Spirit in any other place in the Epistles.

The references to a Baptism of/in/by/with the Holy Spirit as found in the Gospels and Acts simply say that when the Spirit arrives and the Church is born those who believe would be instantly baptized of/in/by/with the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ, the newly instituted Church.

Furthermore, Acts 2.4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%202.4;&version=50;) does not say they were “baptized” with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, it says they were “filled” with the Spirit, which also happens to believers the moment the person is saved and added to—baptized by the Spirit into—the Body of Christ.

As I read Acts 8.5-17, I see a group of fledgling Samaritan believers who had been inadequately evangelized by Philip, who himself was not an Apostle, and this warranted that Apostles from the church in Jerusalem go to Samaria to investigate the quality of their faith. They discovered that the Samaritans were not only poorly taught but had not yet come to saving faith in Christ, simply gone through the ritual of baptism, and, therefore, had not yet been sealed by the Holy Spirit (see here (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%201:22;%20Eph.%201.13;%204.30;&version=31;)). So the Apostles clearly instructed them (as they surely must have), prayed with them and laid hands on them, and the Spirit fell on them. IOW, what we have in view is the conversion of the Samaritans and all that come with it.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Optimax]

As I read Acts 8.5-17, I see a group of fledgling Samaritan believers who had been inadequately evangelized by Philip, who himself was not an Apostle, and this warranted that Apostles from the church in Jerusalem go to Samaria to investigate the quality of their faith. They discovered that the Samaritans were not only poorly taught but had not yet come to saving faith in Christ, simply gone through the ritual of baptism, and, therefore, had not yet been sealed by the Holy Spirit (see here (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%201:22;%20Eph.%201.13;%204.30;&version=31;)). So the Apostles clearly instructed them (as they surely must have), prayed with them and laid hands on them, and the Spirit fell on them. IOW, what we have in view is the conversion of the Samaritans and all that come with it.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



According to these scriptures.

Philip preached Christ unto them.
They believed and received the word of God.

That is what it takes to get anyone born again. "fledglings" or not.
These "fledglings" received Christ(the word of God) were born again and the Apostles with their visit the Holy Spirit came Upon them.

The Holy Spirit came upon them not within them as he was already within them when they received Christ(the word of God).

Ac 8:5
Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
KJV

Ac 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
KJV

Ac 8:14
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
KJV


Notice that is what happened in acts as Jesus tole them it would.

Ac 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
KJV


There is a difference between the Spirit within and the Spirit upon us.

[Jimbeaux]

Demons “believe” (James 2.19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:19;&version=50;)), but they do not do not “believe unto righteousness” (Romans 10.10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%2010.10;&version=50;)). I believe the Samaritans intellectually believed the things that Philip preached to them—i.e., received the truth of word, the things, he taught—but had not yet believed unto righteous or made confession unto salvation. And that is why the Apostles were sent to Samaria.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Optimax]

Demons “believe,” O, but they do not do not “believe unto righteousness” Romans 10.10). I believe the Samaritans intellectually believed the things that Philip preached to them—i.e., received the truth of word, the things, he taught—but had not yet believed unto righteous or made confession unto salvation. And that is why the Apostles were sent to Samaria.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



Hardhead!:P

When scripture says they believed and received it could very well mean what it said.

[dkbwarrior]

Theology comes from the didactic part of scripture, from the Epistles, not from narrative (Matthew-Acts). Narrative’s aim is to tell a story, not construct a theology. Didactic scripture constructs a theology, not tell a story. Each genre has its own purpose. As far as I am aware, only Pentecostals (for obvious reasons) want to construct a theology solely from narrative scripture. The doctrine of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial physical evidence of speaking in tongues come solely from the Gospels and Acts, not from the didactic/epistemic teaching of the Apostles.


You are describing the difference between descriptive and prescriptive text. They are certainly different. However, the description of an event in a historical narrative of the scripture will never contradict a prescriptive passage, and vice versa. Your contention that we cannot interpret one from the other is in direct contradiction of Pauls command to compare spiritual things with spiritual. It is what we are called to do.




It is interesting that the only mention of the Baptism of/in/by/with (take your pick) the Holy Spirit outside the narratives is 1 Cor. 12.13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2012.13;&version=50;). There is no mention of a Baptism of/in/by/with the Holy Spirit in any other place in the Epistles.


It may be interisting but that doesn't provide any evidence of anything.




The references to a Baptism of/in/by/with the Holy Spirit as found in the Gospels and Acts simply say that when the Spirit arrives and the Church is born those who believe would be instantly baptized of/in/by/with the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ, the newly instituted Church.


No, they are not. Lets look:

Every baptism has three requirements:
1) A Baptizer
2) A Baptizee
3) An Element to be Baptized in

Now lets look at two scriptures:

8I indeed have baptized you with water: but he [Jesus] shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
-Mark 1:8

Here, John the Baptist says that when he baptizes the baptizer is him, the baptizee are his believers, and the element is water. Then he says that when Jesus comes, Jesus will be the baptizer, the baptizee will be his believers, and the element will be the Holy Gpirit.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
-1 Corinthians 12:13

In this scripture, Paul tells us that the baptizer of all Christians is the Spirit, the baptizee are the believers, and the element is the Body of Christ.

A graph usually helps here:

DESCRIPTION .............................BAPTIZER .......................BAPTIZEE ............................ELEMENT
Water Baptism:........................... John .................................believer ...................................water
New Birth: ..................................Spirit ................................believer ........................Body of Christ
Baptism In The Holy Spirit: ............Jesus ................................believer ....................................Spirit

As one can clearly see, these are not the same at all.




Furthermore, Acts 2.4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%202.4;&version=50;) does not say they were “baptized” with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, it says they were “filled” with the Spirit, which also happens to believers the moment the person is saved and added to—baptized by the Spirit into—the Body of Christ.


Acts 2:4 may not say that, but Acts chapter one does:

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
-Acts 1:4-5

Of course we know that He was talking about the day of Pentecost, in Acts 2, when they were all filled with the Holy Ghost.

Not to mention, the apostles had already received the Holy Spirit as far as He relates to the forgiveness of sins when Jesus breathed on them the day of His resurrection.

22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
-John 20:22

This also shows that there is a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit in regards to salvation, and being Baptized in the Holy Spirit.




As I read Acts 8.5-17, I see a group of fledgling Samaritan believers who had been inadequately evangelized by Philip, who himself was not an Apostle, and this warranted that Apostles from the church in Jerusalem go to Samaria to investigate the quality of their faith. They discovered that the Samaritans were not only poorly taught but had not yet come to saving faith in Christ, simply gone through the ritual of baptism, and, therefore, had not yet been sealed by the Holy Spirit (see here (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%201:22;%20Eph.%201.13;%204.30;&version=31;)). So the Apostles clearly instructed them (as they surely must have), prayed with them and laid hands on them, and the Spirit fell on them. IOW, what we have in view is the conversion of the Samaritans and all that come with it.


Hmmmm....

I can't find a word of that in the Bible. It sounds like a creative manner to make the Word of God of none effect by ones tradition. Very creative, but no scriptural basis whatsoever.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

According to these scriptures.

Philip preached Christ unto them.
They believed and received the word of God.

That is what it takes to get anyone born again. "fledglings" or not.
These "fledglings" received Christ(the word of God) were born again and the Apostles with their visit the Holy Spirit came Upon them.

The Holy Spirit came upon them not within them as he was already within them when they received Christ(the word of God).

Ac 8:5
Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
KJV

Ac 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
KJV

Ac 8:14
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
KJV


Notice that is what happened in acts as Jesus tole them it would.

Ac 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
KJV

There is a difference between the Spirit within and the Spirit upon us.
I disagree with the Pentecostal's view of doctrine of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit this has happened only in the Book of Acts but not in later Net Testament Churches.

The Holy Spirit came from the Father at Pentecost to witness to the Son. The Spirit witnesses to the Son by indwelling believers. Similar situation took place when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist (Matt. 3:16). The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus like a dove. Trinity has been reveal at that point when the Holy Spirit came upon Christ and a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased." The Holy Spirit is not limited to the Water Baptism in order to make the Spirit alive. The Spirit makes US alive. Jesus said in John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Romans 8:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

1 Peter 3:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=3&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.

Ephesians 3:20 says that we as Christians will be "able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us. " So the Holy Spirit makes Christ's promise of power a reality. In Ephesians 2:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&verse=22&version=31&context=verse) And in Him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by His Spirit.

When the a person recieved Christ as their savior, Ephesians 1:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=1&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
"you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit. " Also in 2 Corinthians 1:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=1&verse=22&version=31&context=verse) "set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."

[JimfromOhio]

Jesus said that NO OUTWARD CHANGE such as baptisms, religious credentials, ceremony or anything will change the heart. He told one of the most religious men of His day that unless a person is "born again" by the Spirit, he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).

[JimfromOhio]

You are describing the difference between descriptive and prescriptive text. They are certainly different. However, the description of an event in a historical narrative of the scripture will never contradict a prescriptive passage, and vice versa. Your contention that we cannot interpret one from the other is in direct contradiction of Pauls command to compare spiritual things with spiritual. It is what we are called to do.





It may be interisting but that doesn't provide any evidence of anything.





No, they are not. Lets look:

Every baptism has three requirements:
1) A Baptizer
2) A Baptizee
3) An Element to be Baptized in

Now lets look at two scriptures:

8I indeed have baptized you with water: but he [Jesus] shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
-Mark 1:8

Here, John the Baptist says that when he baptizes the baptizer is him, the baptizee are his believers, and the element is water. Then he says that when Jesus comes, Jesus will be the baptizer, the baptizee will be his believers, and the element will be the Holy Gpirit.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
-1 Corinthians 12:13

In this scripture, Paul tells us that the baptizer of all Christians is the Spirit, the baptizee are the believers, and the element is the Body of Christ.

A graph usually helps here:

DESCRIPTION .............................BAPTIZER .......................BAPTIZEE ............................ELEMENT
Water Baptism:........................... John .................................believer ...................................water
New Birth: ..................................Spirit ................................believer ........................Body of Christ
Baptism In The Holy Spirit: ............Jesus ................................believer ....................................Spirit

As one can clearly see, these are not the same at all.





Acts 2:4 may not say that, but Acts chapter one does:

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
-Acts 1:4-5

Of course we know that He was talking about the day of Pentecost, in Acts 2, when they were all filled with the Holy Ghost.

Not to mention, the apostles had already received the Holy Spirit as far as He relates to the forgiveness of sins when Jesus breathed on them the day of His resurrection.

22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
-John 20:22

This also shows that there is a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit in regards to salvation, and being Baptized in the Holy Spirit.





Hmmmm....

I can't find a word of that in the Bible. It sounds like a creative manner to make the Word of God of none effect by ones tradition. Very creative, but no scriptural basis whatsoever.

Peace...

I agree with Jim on this one.

[Optimax]

I disagree with the Pentecostal's view of doctrine of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit this has happened only in the Book of Acts but not in later Net Testament Churches.

OK




Jesus said that NO OUTWARD CHANGE such as baptisms, religious credentials, ceremony or anything will change the heart. He told one of the most religious men of His day that unless a person is "born again" by the Spirit, he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).

Read the post again. It mentions the Spirit WITHIN, which is the state of a person that is born again.

Then it mentions the Spirit UPON which is what scripture describes.

[JimfromOhio]

Read the post again. It mentions the Spirit WITHIN, which is the state of a person that is born again.

Then it mentions the Spirit UPON which is what scripture describes.
There is no differences between "upon" and "within" except they are the same. This is man's doctrines that says they are different. :wave:

[JimfromOhio]

Limiting the Holy Spirit's ability based on "upon" and "within" is limiting God's ability. :doh:

[Optimax]

Limiting the Holy Spirit's ability based on "upon" and "within" is limiting God's ability. :doh:

The following backed up with scripture explains within an upon a little more.

Jesus spoke if water. When He did as in the following verses he was using water as a symbol of The Holy Spirit.

Jesus in the scripture below was speaking of the new birth, referred to as being born again, Rom. 10: 9-10 tells how. When a person is born again they have eternal life. Jesus describe it as a well of water that springs up into everlasting life.

Jn 4:13-14
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
KJV

The result of being born again is the The Holy Spirit actually comes to dwell in us.

Jn 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you .
KJV

Ro 8:9-11
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you , the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you , he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you .
KJV

Jesus also spoke of a river.

Jn 7:37-39
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
KJV

Jesus said that they that believe on him ( born again) would receive the Holy Ghost. He also describe an event symbolized as “rivers of living water”. The rivers would flow from “his belly”. That term is used to refer to the part of man that is most central which is the spirit man.
The book of acts records the event when it first occurred.

Ac 2:1-4
2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
KJV

There is a difference in the event that caused the “well to spring up” which resulted in eternal life and the event that caused the “rivers to flow”. There is also a difference in the results of the events.

A person being born again causes the “well to spring up into everlasting life” resulting in The Holy Spirit to be “in you”.

A person that receives the Holy Ghost, same as Holy Spirit, causes the rivers of living water to flow from the spirit man. What is the result? Scripture tell us that the Holy Ghost comes upon you.

Ac 1:5
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
KJV

Ac 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
KJV

When we are born again the Spirit comes in us and dwells there.

When we are baptized with the Holy Ghost the Spirit comes upon us.

The Spirit comes upon us so that we can be a witness with power. When The Spirit comes upon us He stays as long as we need the power, but does not stay upon us all the time, only when we need the power to witness.

The Spirit in us, The Spirit upon us.

[JimfromOhio]

The following backed up with scripture explains within an upon a little more.

Jesus spoke if water. When He did as in the following verses he was using water as a symbol of The Holy Spirit.

Jesus in the scripture below was speaking of the new birth, referred to as being born again, Rom. 10: 9-10 tells how. When a person is born again they have eternal life. Jesus describe it as a well of water that springs up into everlasting life.

Jn 4:13-14
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
KJV

The result of being born again is the The Holy Spirit actually comes to dwell in us.

Jn 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you .
KJV

Ro 8:9-11
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you , the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you , he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you .
KJV

Jesus also spoke of a river.

Jn 7:37-39
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
KJV

Jesus said that they that believe on him ( born again) would receive the Holy Ghost. He also describe an event symbolized as “rivers of living water”. The rivers would flow from “his belly”. That term is used to refer to the part of man that is most central which is the spirit man.
The book of acts records the event when it first occurred.

Ac 2:1-4
2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
KJV

There is a difference in the event that caused the “well to spring up” which resulted in eternal life and the event that caused the “rivers to flow”. There is also a difference in the results of the events.

A person being born again causes the “well to spring up into everlasting life” resulting in The Holy Spirit to be “in you”.

A person that receives the Holy Ghost, same as Holy Spirit, causes the rivers of living water to flow from the spirit man. What is the result? Scripture tell us that the Holy Ghost comes upon you.

Ac 1:5
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
KJV

Ac 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
KJV

When we are born again the Spirit comes in us and dwells there.

When we are baptized with the Holy Ghost the Spirit comes upon us.

The Spirit comes upon us so that we can be a witness with power. When The Spirit comes upon us He stays as long as we need the power, but does not stay upon us all the time, only when we need the power to witness.

The Spirit in us, The Spirit upon us.

A simple question, if Holy Spirit is in us, why would we need Holy Spirit "upon" us? With the Holy Spirit that is within us, we have all the power we need to witness the world. The concept of Spirit baptism subsequent to salvation which a believer must "earnestly seek" by merit (not grace) to reach the highest level of spirituality is unbiblical.

I believe that every believer is baptized by Christ with the Holy Spirit at salvation as explained in Matt. 3:11; Mark 1:8; John 1:26; Acts 1:5; 1 Cor. 12:13 all speak of the one baptism referred to in Eph. 4:5. The Bible makes no distinction between the two baptism (1) the Spirit baptizing believers into Christ at conversion and later (2) Christ baptizing believers into the Holy Spirit. Believers are spoken of as already having every spiritual blessing in Christ (Eph. 1:3). We have “everything pertaining to life and godliness” in Christ (2 Pet. 1:3) once the Holy Spirit lives in us.

[Jimbeaux]

*****

When we are born again the Spirit comes in us and dwells there.

When we are baptized with the Holy Ghost the Spirit comes upon us.

The Spirit comes upon us so that we can be a witness with power. When The Spirit comes upon us He stays as long as we need the power, but does not stay upon us all the time, only when we need the power to witness.

The Spirit in us, The Spirit upon us.

I have no problem with this. Only this happens at one time, the moment you are saved; not in increments as I was once taught.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[dkbwarrior]

A simple question, if Holy Spirit is in us, why would we need Holy Spirit "upon" us? With the Holy Spirit that is within us, we have all the power we need to witness the world. The concept of Spirit baptism subsequent to salvation which a believer must "earnestly seek" by merit (not grace) to reach the highest level of spirituality is unbiblical.


I agree. There is no such thing as a Holy Spirit Baptism subsequent to salvation that a believer must earnestly seek by merit.

But there is a Holy Spirit Baptism separate from salvation (and usually subsequent) that is a free gift to all those who appropriate it by faith.


I believe that every believer is baptized by Christ with the Holy Spirit at salvation as explained in Matt. 3:11; Mark 1:8; John 1:26; Acts 1:5; 1 Cor. 12:13 all speak of the one baptism referred to in Eph. 4:5. The Bible makes no distinction between the two baptism (1) the Spirit baptizing believers into Christ at conversion and later (2) Christ baptizing believers into the Holy Spirit. Believers are spoken of as already having every spiritual blessing in Christ (Eph. 1:3). We have “everything pertaining to life and godliness” in Christ (2 Pet. 1:3) once the Holy Spirit lives in us.

False. One is the baptism into the body of Christ, and one is the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. You seem to be doing a fair amount of confusing the two persons of the godhead here.

Peace...

[Jimbeaux]

*****

But there is a Holy Spirit Baptism separate from salvation (and usually subsequent) that is a free gift to all those who appropriate it by faith.


*****

That begs a question—Why?

Why would God wait until after salvation to empower a Christian for service? When does a person need empowering more than at the beginning of her/his walk with the Lord? What is the point in making a person wait to “appropriate it by faith” if it is a gift? Wasn’t the faith the person had to pass from death to life enough?

IMO, you get the whole package when you are saved. It is not doled out in increments.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[dkbwarrior]

That begs a question—Why?

Why would God wait until after salvation to empower a Christian for service? When does a person need empowering more than at the beginning of her/his walk with the Lord? What is the point in making a person wait to “appropriate it by faith” if it is a gift? Wasn’t the faith the person had to pass from death to life enough?

IMO, you get the whole package when you are saved. It is not doled out in increments.


I actually think that you have some good points here. I don't really think that it was ever in Gods plan for someone to get saved and then wait some time to receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. In fact, the story of Cornelius in the book of Acts shows that they can happen simultaneously, and I figure that this is probably the pattern that God sought.

Its like walking and chewing bubble gum at the same time. They are not the same thing, but they can certainly occur at the same time, (for most of us anyway).

The problem is, one can only receive what one has faith for, (generally speaking), and as the gift of faith comes by hearing the promise of God preached, and the church did not preach the Baptism of the Holy Spirit for some 1800+ years, it is no wonder that we are in the boat that we are in today.

Peace...

[Faithful Love]

I actually think that you have some good points here. I don't really think that it was ever in Gods plan for someone to get saved and then wait some time to receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. In fact, the story of Cornelius in the book of Acts shows that they can happen simultaneously, and I figure that this is probably the pattern that God sought.

Its like walking and chewing bubble gum at the same time. They are not the same thing, but they can certainly occur at the same time, (for most of us anyway).

The problem is, one can only receive what one has faith for, (generally speaking), and as the gift of faith comes by hearing the promise of God preached, and the church did not preach the Baptism of the Holy Spirit for some 1800+ years, it is no wonder that we are in the boat that we are in today.

Peace...

Good point.... one has to know about it to receive it in its fullness. How does one know? Through hearing about it.

I had no clue what salvation was, forget about the fact God wanted us to have power. It wasn't until I heard AND implemented.

People perish all the time for lack of knowledge, in many arenas.

[dkbwarrior]

IMO, you get the whole package when you are saved. It is not doled out in increments.



IMO, you get the whole package when you are saved. It is not doled out in increments.


You never answered my earlier question. If we got the whole package when we were saved, then why does James instruct us to ask for wisdom?

Not to mention, not only had the apostles already received the Holy Spirit prior to pentecost when Jesus breathed on them and said, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost", but they were filled again in Acts 4, after they had been filled in Acts 2.


29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. 31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
-Acts 4:29-31

It is not a once for all thing.

Peace...

[GrapeGirl]

Do I need to be on drugs to understand this thread????

[dkbwarrior]

Do I need to be on drugs to understand this thread????

No, but drunk would help:

6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
-Acts 2:6, 12-18

Thus the christianese phrase, "drunk in the Spirit". Although I don't really get Peters argument about it only being the third hour of the day. It never used to stop me, the time of the day that is, so why would it have stopped them? (Mabey Jews are more honorable drunks than I was?)

Peace...

[Jimbeaux]

Does 2 Peter 1.3 and Ephesians 1.3 tell us that we received the whole package when we received Christ? Or do they say something else?
His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue. (2 Peter 1.3)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, (Ephesians 1.3)
Ergo, if we have been given “all things” and “every” spiritual blessing why are people waiting/tarrying/seeking/hoping to become “full” gospel.

What else could they mean?

Waking up to the wonderful reality that a believer is already empowered, able to utitlize every spiritual gifting, pray in tongues, heal the sick, do the works of Christ, etc.etc.etc. and have been right from the start, frees them to be the servants of God, not wait for some emotional experience before they are. Waking up to this is like calling the repairman to fix your refrigerator only to discover it was only unplugged from the power source.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[dkbwarrior]

Does 2 Peter 1.3 and Ephesians 1.3 tell us that we received the whole package when we received Christ? Or do they say something else?
His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue. (2 Peter 1.3)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, (Ephesians 1.3)
Ergo, if we have been given “all things” and “every” spiritual blessing why are people waiting/tarrying/seeking/hoping to become “full” gospel.

What else could they mean?

Waking up to the wonderful reality that a believer is already empowered, able to utitlize every spiritual gifting, pray in tongues, heal the sick, do the works of Christ, etc.etc.etc. and have been right from the start, frees them to be the servants of God, not wait for some emotional experience before they are. Waking up to this is like calling the repairman to fix your refrigerator only to discover it was only unplugged from the power source.

~Jim


I actually agree with you here more than I disagree. And from reading your posts in this thread, I think alot of your feelings on this are reactionary, against the Pentecostal practice of tarrying.

This is not a WOF practice, so I do not have this negative experience to draw conclusions from, as you do. Kenneth Hagin spoke often against the PC practice of 'tarrying' for the Baptism. He would say, 'Just believe God and do it."

Experientially, I also agree with you. When I first spoke in tongues it was because I heard another Christian say he could. In my early years as a christian, I was in prison and didn't want to be seen associating with other believers, as I thought it would hurt my reputation, (how things have changed!), but I would find ways to sit close enough to them at the chow hall and on the yard so that I could hear them talking without anyone thinking I was with them.

One day they were talking about the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, actually, they were having a debate similar to the one we are having here. I quickly discerned who was actually expounding the scripture under the annointing, and who was just resisting.

I went back to my cell and thought to myself, "If God will Baptize them in the Holy Spirit and let them speak in tongues, then He'll do it for me too". And I opened my mouth and began to speak in tongues. That was it. No tarrying, no sweating, no emotion really, except I did get pretty happy when I realized what I was doing!

I did probably make quite a picture though, a 6'4" tall bald white guy covered in tattoos standing in his cell in his boxers talking in tongues and laughing. Lucky the gaurds didn't see it, they probably would have put me in a padded cell!

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

But there is a Holy Spirit Baptism separate from salvation (and usually subsequent) that is a free gift to all those who appropriate it by faith.



It is my understanding that only Pentecostals and Word of Faith believes this concept? I know Charismatics and Spirit-filled don't.

When I was growing up, I only understand one baptism by the Holy Spirit is on the day we got saved. Ephesians 4:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)-6 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Isn't "appropriate it by faith" merit rather than grace?

[dkbwarrior]

It is my understanding that only Pentecostals and Word of Faith believes this concept? I know Charismatics and Spirit-filled don't.


I think it would be more appropriate to say that many Chairsmatics and Spirit-Filled do, and many of them don't. I have met many from both camps, so to speak.




When I was growing up, I only understand one baptism by the Holy Spirit is on the day we got saved. Ephesians 4:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)-6 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


Except the writer of Hebrews calls it the doctrine of baptisms, plural:

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
-Hebrews 6:1-2

And it is considered to be one of the six foundational principals of the doctrine of Christ.




Isn't "appropriate it by faith" merit rather than grace?


No, man does not get credit for faith, in a meritorious sense, it is a gift from God, and it is contained in Gods Word.

Man does get credit for what Jesus did on the cross, by making the choice to receive it by faith.

If faith is a work, as you seem to imply, then that would mean that we are saved by works. Because it is only by grace through faith that we are saved.

God didn't decide to save some, and decide to send some to hell. God decided that He wanted all men to be saved. But we make the choice to accept it or reject it, to believe it or not.

You can call that works all you want, but you are wrong. It is faith, not works. Paul very clearly tells us that faith is not a work:

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
-Romans 4:3-5

You are making the same interpretive mistake here that you are making consistenly throughout these discussions. Just because JimFromOhio thinks that faith is a work, does not make it truth. What is truth is what God says is a work.

Frankly, your interpretaion of words means nothing. That is why the scriptures are not of any private interpretation. Because we use words differently than God, and words change meaning over time.

You have to deduce the biblical meaning of a word, then apply it in your interpretation. And according to the Bible, faith is not a work.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

I think it would be more appropriate to say that many Chairsmatics and Spirit-Filled do, and many of them don't. I have met many from both camps, so to speak.





Except the writer of Hebrews calls it the doctrine of baptisms, plural:

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
-Hebrews 6:1-2

And it is considered to be one of the six foundational principals of the doctrine of Christ.





No, man does not get credit for faith, in a meritorious sense, it is a gift from God, and it is contained in Gods Word.

Man does get credit for what Jesus did on the cross, by making the choice to receive it by faith.

If faith is a work, as you seem to imply, then that would mean that we are saved by works. Because it is only by grace through faith that we are saved.

God didn't decide to save some, and decide to send some to hell. God decided that He wanted all men to be saved. But we make the choice to accept it or reject it, to believe it or not.

You can call that works all you want, but you are wrong. It is faith, not works. Paul very clearly tells us that faith is not a work:

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
-Romans 4:3-5

You are making the same interpretive mistake here that you are making consistenly throughout these discussions. Just because JimFromOhio thinks that faith is a work, does not make it truth. What is truth is what God says is a work.

Frankly, your interpretaion of words means nothing. That is why the scriptures are not of any private interpretation. Because we use words differently than God, and words change meaning over time.

You have to deduce the biblical meaning of a word, then apply it in your interpretation. And according to the Bible, faith is not a work.

Peace...
Spiritually, the Holy Spirit, the eternal Spirit of God,who dwelled in Jesus Christ, who empowers the His beilevers, Who is the source of our lives in Christ, and Who is poured out on those who believe as the guarantee of redemption. The Old Testament taught repentance from dead works and faith toward God. The New Testament teaches repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only way to God.

Regarding "the doctrine of baptisms", you will find the same word baptism in Hebrews 9:10, which used the same Greek word baptismos is translated, "washings". We have to be careful of the english word of "baptism" and it is not the usual Greek word for baptism, which is baptizo. The use of baptismos rather than baptizo is another strong indication that the passage is not addressed to Christians. The word baptismos means "washings" and it refers to the Old Testament washings (Hebrews 9:10).

To understand the Book of Hebrews, we are to look back into the Old Testament:
Ezekiel 36:25-26 Through the prophet God said, "I [will] sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you."

God Himself knows that His Son would come a day when who would be spiritually cleansed that cleansings would no longer be physical, symbolic, and temporary. Rather the one final cleansing would be spiritual, real, and permanent.

In Titus 3:5 Paul told Titus, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit."

The Jewish people were having the hard time understanding what "works" really means in God's grace and that they needed to abandon the external washings and pursue the real washing that comes in our hearts by faith in Christ.

Most important of all, Jesus explains in John 3:5 Jesus told Nicodemus, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." Here, Jesus was talking about salvation which is the internal cleansing of which Ezekiel 36:25-26 mentioned. A great Jewish Scholar would know this reference could have for understanding Christ's statement since he was the preeminent teacher in Israel (John 3:1).

We Christians recieved a free gift of God's grace created by the power of the Holy Spirit working through the means of grace that planted into our hearts. I don't see baptism defines a person a Christian but rather the Holy Spirit defines a Christian. Often people are misled that baptism is the way to go which is related to "works". That is why the Apostle Paul wrote, “Your salvation is nothing you have achieved by your good works. It is a gift of God. You receive it by faith. That way no one can boast of his own accomplishments.”

God wants a pure heart from us and He does not need to give us rules that we had to follow in the laws of faith but rather in order for our hearts to be pure that grace gave us faith simply BECAUSE Jesus Christ cleaned our sins and all God wants us to do is be Christ-like from within.

[JimfromOhio]

Baptism is very important step of a Christian faith but baptism must be lead by the Holy Spirit. In Mark 10: 38,39 speaks of a baptism of suffering: “Jesus said to them, ‘You do not know what you are asking for. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized? ’ When a believer is baptized today, he is not being identified with the message and ministry of John the Baptist but rather ther baptism of the Holy Spirit is that it identifies us with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?” (Rom. 6: 3). In Matthew 28 Christ addresses baptism: “Baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” (v. 19). Again, the key idea in baptism is identification. A name represents all a person is and stands for, so to be “baptized in the name of” a person or group means to be identified with that person or group. In Christian baptism it involves identifying yourself with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

[Jimbeaux]

*****

No, man does not get credit for faith, in a meritorious sense, it is a gift from God, and it is contained in Gods Word.

Man does get credit for what Jesus did on the cross, by making the choice to receive it by faith.

If faith is a work, as you seem to imply, then that would mean that we are saved by works. Because it is only by grace through faith that we are saved.

God didn't decide to save some, and decide to send some to hell. God decided that He wanted all men to be saved. But we make the choice to accept it or reject it, to believe it or not.

You can call that works all you want, but you are wrong. It is faith, not works. Paul very clearly tells us that faith is not a work:

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
-Romans 4:3-5

You are making the same interpretive mistake here that you are making consistenly throughout these discussions. Just because JimFromOhio thinks that faith is a work, does not make it truth. What is truth is what God says is a work.

Frankly, your interpretaion of words means nothing. That is why the scriptures are not of any private interpretation. Because we use words differently than God, and words change meaning over time.

You have to deduce the biblical meaning of a word, then apply it in your interpretation. And according to the Bible, faith is not a work.

Peace...

True, DK.

But ...

Not everything that is called “faith” in this forum is faith. Often it is nothing more than presumption. Anything that originates from man for the self-centered benefit of that person or for reasons of personal gain or advancement is works, IMO, even if we call it “faith”. When we exercise “faith” (so-called) for our benefit it is no longer faith, it is simply trying to use God to gain an advantage in life.

Faith, true faith, must be exercised toward God for His benefit and/or the benefit of the kingdom of God or others, never for personal reasons. Faith was never meant to be our magic wand, our genie in a bottle, to get what we want. Whjen faith is usedthat was it is indeed "works" (or worse). As with everything else, faith is meant for God and His kingdom.

That’s why I am happy to pray, "Not my will but yours be done." That is real faith/trust. Anything else is works ... even when we call itr faith.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[GreatistheLord]

I wouldn't worry too much about the terminology and semantics of baptism, just ask the holy spirit to fill you and He will. But ask, and believe that you will receive.

Alot of believers have received the holy spirit's infilling regardless of their theology of baptism, and what really is the difference?

If you don't think you have the infilling of the Holy Spirit, you probably dont. It's like if you don't know you're saved, your probably not. Simple to fix though.

God loves you.