Balak: Messiah Will Die the Death of the Righteous

[Melchizedek]

Numbers 23:10

Who counted the dust of Jacob or the number of a fourth of [or, of the seed of] Israel? May my soul die the death of the upright and let my end be like his.


The seed, can be taken as a remez back to the Seed of the Woman, the Promised Seed. The "fourth" can be taken as a remez back to the stone that Jacob anointed with oil and wine (the Messiah) since it was from four stones that that stone was made echad.

Since this establishes that the Torah is talking about the Messiah here, then the Torah clearly teaches that the Messiah is "upright" and that he will "die the death of the upright" and his "end" is to live forever.

[Melchizedek]

..

[ContraMundum]

*cricket noises*

[Melchizedek]

*cricket noises*


Yea, it sure is quiet in this thread.

I should also mention that the Midrash Rabbah on Genesis and Ruth, both state clearly that the Seed of the Woman, is the Messiah.

I find it amazing that those that claim to be Jews, don't believe the Torah, Talmud, Midrash Rabbah, and other Jewish literature. Such people must ask themselves if they are really Jewish, or if they are simply hanging on to some genelogical claim to be part of a social club. Judaism is not a social club, it's a matter of life and death!

It's sad, because if all one has to rely on is their genelogy, then they will not enter into the World to Come - after all, genelogy didn't help Korach and his family, did it?

I'm telling you, Israel was not worthy when the Messiah came (and thus it was witnessed that he came riding on a donkey's colt), because of many people claiming to be Jews, rejected the Torah, were disobedient, and rebelled against its authority, and it is for that reason - rejecting the Torah, and not believing what Moses wrote - that they were responsible for the Messiah coming the way he did, and responsible for the destruction of the Temple, and is the reason why to this day it has not been rebuilt.

[Melchizedek]

Instead of hijacking the thread, care to respond to the original post?

[visionary]

Instead of hijacking the thread, care to respond to the original post?I like your analogy.

[BreadAlone]

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[visionary]

Would you say that the rebuilding of the temple is a sign of a second chance?

[RebYosef]

Who counted the dust of Jacob or the number of a fourth of [or, of the seed of] Israel? May my soul die the death of the upright and let my end be like his.

Also, a more literal translation would be this,

“Who can count the dust of Jacob/ Number the dust-cloud of Israel/May I die the death of the upright/May my fate be like his”*

I should also point out, this is how the Rabbah on Numbers, deems it should be understood for the purpose of Midrash beyond P’shaat. I only mention this, because you speak of the Rabbah like no one reads it, but nary a mention of the Numbers Rabbah in your post. Odd you would references separate Rabbah, but not the one dealing with the text itself (I’ll deal with that later).

*- Please tell me if you object to this translation, it will tell us much about your ability to read Classical Hebrew and the science of textual criticism, both needed to study Rabbinic works.

It is also prudent, to cite the midrash you take “remez” from….

The seed, can be taken as a remez back to the Seed of the Woman, the Promised Seed.

Really? This is a compound noun and thus is generic ( and is Aramaic, I might add ) Doesn’t quite fit the methodology of the Rabbah Genesis (I guess this is were you got it from, because it’s not in Rabba Numbers)

The "fourth" can be taken as a remez back to the stone that Jacob anointed with oil and wine (the Messiah) since it was from four stones that that stone was made echad

This referenced as a Mesopotamian diviner method not only in the Rabbah, but in Critical Scholars as well ( Freidman and Fishbane for example). No mention of anointment.

Since this establishes that the Torah is talking about the Messiah here, then the Torah clearly teaches that the Messiah is "upright" and that he will "die the death of the upright" and his "end" is to live forever

Now you are running into some problems here. “Death of the upright” (yesharim) is discussed in the relevant Rabbah, and a play on words here (yeshurun) and it’s occurrence elsewhere, to imply that nothing about spiritual or physical death is being spoken of. Rather, the speaker wants to have the future of Israel.

I should also mention that the Midrash Rabbah on Genesis and Ruth, both state clearly that the Seed of the Woman, is the Messiah.

Why mention this? Any careful method of study would warn against meshing various midrash together, since there is no unity in their methods or opinion of their authors.


I find it amazing that those that claim to be Jews, don't believe the Torah, Talmud, Midrash Rabbah, and other Jewish literature. Such people must ask themselves if they are really Jewish, or if they are simply hanging on to some genealogical claim to be part of a social club. Judaism is not a social club, it's a matter of life and death!


I’m going to keep this mind. Most Jewish posters I’ve seen here, are younger people who have to work full time and do not have the education required to quibble about Rabbinical texts, since it has very little to do with the day to day life of being Jewish.

Since you mentioned Genesis Rabbah, could you translate and write out the specific portion that details the messianic implication of Zar’Ah? And by portion, I mean all the text that deals with the specific topic. If translation takes too long, you can just write out the transliteration for the sake of brevity.

[Torah613]

Excellent points Reb Yosef. Unfortunately many of the rabbinic Jews here simply cannot commit the time (yet--bezrat HaShem) to such advanced study. Not to mention, at least 50% are women so wouldn't really study at this level anyways.

BTW, know of a good yeshiva for Balei Tshuva?

Yochanan

[ContraMundum]

Why mention this? Any careful method of study would warn against meshing various midrash together, since there is no unity in their methods or opinion of their authors.

Pfffffbwahahah! *sprays the screen with lemonade* ROTFLOL!!!! :D

Coming from an RJ, that statement takes the cake.

[Lulav]

At least it's honest. :)

[Lulav]

Speaking of Balak, I would love to know the Rabbinic understanding of what Balak said here:

15 Then he uttered his oracle: "The oracle of Balaam son of Beor, the oracle of one whose eye sees clearly, 16 the oracle of one who hears the words of God, who has knowledge from the Most High, who sees a vision from the Almighty, who falls prostrate, and whose eyes are opened: 17

"I see him,
but not now;
I behold him,
but not near.

A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth. 18 Edom will be conquered; Seir, his enemy, will be conquered, but Israel will grow strong. 19 A ruler will come out of Jacob and destroy the survivors of the city." 20 Then Balaam saw Amalek and uttered his oracle: "Amalek was first among the nations, but he will come to ruin at last."

[RebYosef]

Pfffffbwahahah! *sprays the screen with lemonade* ROTFLOL!!!! :D

Coming from an RJ, that statement takes the cake.

First, what is an RJ?


and Second...


As the Sages, some readers, began to combine unrelated teachings that lead to rather disastrous results. At this period, many leading authorities warned against such a practice and emphasized that midrash of this nature, must be kept in the narrow confines of it’s topic.

Gruen E, 1998. Heritage and Hellenism: The Reinvention of Jewish Tradition. Berkley




And who would take this utterance of the wise and contort it to form the shape of another? The teachings have a home, but it is the careless one who places them abroad.


Saadia Gaon in his Kitab Al-Rad


Is there anything else about my faith, you wish to instruct me about?

[RebYosef]

Excellent points Reb Yosef. Unfortunately many of the rabbinic Jews here simply cannot commit the time (yet--bezrat HaShem) to such advanced study. Not to mention, at least 50% are women so wouldn't really study at this level anyways.

BTW, know of a good yeshiva for Balei Tshuva?

Yochanan

Thank you for your kind words.

I know of nothing that could help you in Kansas, unless you have relocated.

[Lulav]

First, what is an RJ?


and Second...


Gruen E, 1998. Heritage and Hellenism: The Reinvention of Jewish Tradition. Berkley





Saadia Gaon in his Kitab Al-Rad


Is there anything else about my faith, you wish to instruct me about?Hmm, I don't know who you were quoting in those last two quotes, but you may have previously hit the MQ feature and forgot to post with them, it has been acting up lately, I didn't see anyone in this thread say those things. But the RJ, I would assume, would mean a Rabbinic Jew. :)

[ContraMundum]

Is there anything else about my faith, you wish to instruct me about?

I haven't instructed you on anything, but the comment made me laugh. I don't think pointing out humourously ironic statements is equivelent to instruction by anyone's standards. When one comes to this forum, one should remember that nothing coming from the "sages" is taken as infallible dogma, as they are almost always regarded in orthodox Jewish circles. We don't accredit such authority to them, even if you do. To cite them, or their rules as the normative rule of all interpretation is something that must be scrutinised before it is accepted. So, if we regard certain things are ironic or absurd, just understand that some of us see the sages as mere fallible men, who often confound their own rules of interpretation, and although often interesting, it is not always worth calling the absolute truth.

I don't presume to instruct you on anything, and I hope you regard my faith with equal measure and have no desire to instruct me. BTW- my faith includes a Jewish foundation, so I often go to the same sources. In such a case, I hope you don't intend to instruct any of us, but are here to learn or discuss from an equal standing.

Enjoy.

[Torah613]

First, what is an RJ?


and Second...


Gruen E, 1998. Heritage and Hellenism: The Reinvention of Jewish Tradition. Berkley





Saadia Gaon in his Kitab Al-Rad


Is there anything else about my faith, you wish to instruct me about?

RJ is Rabbinic Jew, what Jews who practice Judaism as a religion are reffered to on this forum.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

Thank you for your kind words.

I know of nothing that could help you in Kansas, unless you have relocated.

Bezrat Hashem, I will be living in HaEretz in a couple years.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

Hmm, I don't know who you were quoting in those last two quotes, but you may have previously hit the MQ feature and forgot to post with them, it has been acting up lately, I didn't see anyone in this thread say those things. But the RJ, I would assume, would mean a Rabbinic Jew. :)

Lulav, the first quote is from a book, the second from a sage--the Saadia Gaon.

Yochanan

[Lulav]

Lulav, the first quote is from a book, the second from a sage--the Saadia Gaon.

Yochanan

Yeah, but I didn't see anyone on this thread quote that, do you? :scratch: I looked but couldn't find it so was wondering where it came from ( in this thread) :)

[Melchizedek]

Also, a more literal translation would be this,

“Who can count the dust of Jacob/ Number the dust-cloud of Israel/May I die the death of the upright/May my fate be like his”*

I should also point out, this is how the Rabbah on Numbers, deems it should be understood for the purpose of Midrash beyond P’shaat. I only mention this, because you speak of the Rabbah like no one reads it, but nary a mention of the Numbers Rabbah in your post. Odd you would references separate Rabbah, but not the one dealing with the text itself (I’ll deal with that later).

So there weren't four stones that miraculously became one, as per Rashi?

*- Please tell me if you object to this translation, it will tell us much about your ability to read Classical Hebrew and the science of textual criticism, both needed to study Rabbinic works.It can be translated in several ways. I especially like how the Targum translates it as:

"And when Bileam the sinner beheld the house of Israel, a circumcised people, hidden in the dust of the desert, he said, Who can number the merits of these strong ones, or count the good works of one of the four camps of Israel?"

Quarter, four - a midrash back to the stone of Israel from four stones that became echad. After all, Messiah is representative of all Israel.


This referenced as a Mesopotamian diviner method not only in the Rabbah, but in Critical Scholars as well ( Freidman and Fishbane for example). No mention of anointment.The very act of pouring oil on something, is the midrash in that it was the Stone of Israel, the Beit Elohiem, that was anointed when Jacob poured oil, and wine on it.


Now you are running into some problems here. “Death of the upright” (yesharim) is discussed in the relevant Rabbah, and a play on words here (yeshurun) and it’s occurrence elsewhere, to imply that nothing about spiritual or physical death is being spoken of. Rather, the speaker wants to have the future of Israel.The future of Israel also refers to the future of Messiah, who himself is upright.

Why mention this? Any careful method of study would warn against meshing various midrash together, since there is no unity in their methods or opinion of their authors.True, and I agree that this portion of my midrash is a stretch, but it's not that difficult to derive it even from the peshat that the stone was anointed, thus by implication the Messiah is the "anointed" stone, and his death is like that of all Israel: the death of the righteous - a death Balak wishes in order to inherit a place in the World to Come. That HaShem is the one using Balak to speak against his will, is even more striking, that if HaShem is the one speaking through him, then why is HaShem saying "may my death be like his?"


Since you mentioned Genesis Rabbah, could you translate and write out the specific portion that details the messianic implication of Zar’Ah? And by portion, I mean all the text that deals with the specific topic. If translation takes too long, you can just write out the transliteration for the sake of brevity.I do not have access to Genesis Rabbah (I am currently saving up for it), however my rabbi does. I will see what I can do to get it posted for you and others.

[RebYosef]

So there weren't four stones that miraculously became one, as per Rashi?


An answer would require you to give up, what Midrash you are taking this from.

It can be translated in several ways. I especially like how the Targum translates it as:

"And when Bileam the sinner beheld the house of Israel, a circumcised people, hidden in the dust of the desert, he said, Who can number the merits of these strong ones, or count the good works of one of the four camps of Israel?"


That looks like Pseduo-Yonathan, in which case, would not be a translation, but a interpetation for a Midrash.

The very act of pouring oil on something, is the midrash in that it was the Stone of Israel, the Beit Elohiem, that was anointed when Jacob poured oil, and wine on it.


What midrash? You have cited nothing thus far.

The future of Israel also refers to the future of Messiah, who himself is upright.

Indeed, and death was purposefully de-emphasized by the writings.

True, and I agree that this portion of my midrash is a stretch

This is your own work? As in, a Midrash you have written?

a death Balak wishes in order to inherit a place in the World to Come. That HaShem is the one using Balak to speak against his will, is even more striking, that if HaShem is the one speaking through him, then why is HaShem saying "may my death be like his?"


Or perhaps Non-death? As the Numbers Rabbah suggests.

I do not have access to Genesis Rabbah (I am currently saving up for it), however my rabbi does. I will see what I can do to get it posted for you and others

So you don't own it. Can you read the Hebrew/Aramaic of the text?

[Torah613]

Yeah, but I didn't see anyone on this thread quote that, do you? :scratch: I looked but couldn't find it so was wondering where it came from ( in this thread) :)

he was using them to answer a question. You can take quotes from elsewhere and put them in quote tags. that must be what he did.

Yochanan

[RebYosef]

he was using them to answer a question. You can take quotes from elsewhere and put them in quote tags. that must be what he did.

Yochanan

Indeed, the citations are under the quotes

[RebYosef]

Bezrat Hashem, I will be living in HaEretz in a couple years.

Yochanan

B'H

Where abouts will you be moving to?

[Torah613]

B'H

Where abouts will you be moving to?

Don't know that yet. I've thought of volunteering for the religious unit of hte IDF. Don't know if I will do that or not (Bezrat Hashem, HaMoshiach will be here than and such will be unneccesary).

Yochanan

[Torah613]

I hear the Golan is a pretty cheap place to live (mere rumors though--from INR).

Yochanan

[Torah613]

I hear the Golan is a pretty cheap place to live (mere rumors though--from INR).

Yochanan