Noachide Refutation: Goyim and the Olam Habah?

[Melchizedek]

If Israel is "a nation that will dwell alone" according to the Torah (Numbers 23:9), then how is it the nations will inherit a place in the World to Come?

[ShirChadash]

:thumbsup: there ya go -- when you can't get anywhere with you other posts, spam the forum. :thumbsup: nice!

[Melchizedek]

:thumbsup: there ya go -- when you can't get anywhere with you other posts, spam the forum. :thumbsup: nice!

Can a man ask an honest question in another thread around here not related to any threads or topics found, or are you the thought police? Who made you mod of this forum?

Your near-universal post above in multiple threads, is actually word for word a classic example of spam, if indeed you are looking for one.

I can tell you are frustrated with the points being raised from the Torah.

Perhaps you don't have an answer to the question above, and instead respond like one who really doesn't know the Torah. After all, even the Pirkei Avos teaches that one should know Torah with which to be able to respond to heretics. If you think I'm a heretic, then do you not know the Torah well enough to respond with a more relevant answer than what you posted here? Or do you not know the Torah?

[ShirChadash]

Can a man ask an honest question in another thread around here not related to any threads or topics found, or are you the thought police? Who made you mod of this forum?

Your near-universal post above in multiple threads, is actually word for word a classic example of spam, if indeed you are looking for one.

I can tell you are frustrated with the points being raised from the Torah.

Perhaps you don't have an answer to the question above, and instead respond like one who really doesn't know the Torah. After all, even the Pirkei Avos teaches that one should know Torah with which to be able to respond to heretics. If you think I'm a heretic, then do you not know the Torah well enough to respond with a more relevant answer than what you posted here? Or do you not know the Torah?
Oh heavens no LOL -- but yes raising the same points being discussed and raised in other threads here (even with you), all on new individual threads, because you don't like the clear answers you have been getting already, is spamming the forum but at least my speaking up kept you from making a bunch more.

:)

[Melchizedek]

Oh heavens no LOL -- but yes raising the same points being discussed and raised in other threads here (even with you), all on new individual threads, because you don't like the clear answers you have been getting already, is spamming the forum but at least my speaking up kept you from making a bunch more.

:)


I've never seen anyone avoid a question as well as you have:

If Israel is "a nation that will dwell alone" according to the Torah (Numbers 23:9), then how is it the nations will inherit a place in the World to Come?

[visionary]

I've never seen anyone avoid a question as well as you have:

If Israel is "a nation that will dwell alone" according to the Torah (Numbers 23:9), then how is it the nations will inherit a place in the World to Come?True.. not only avoid the question.. personal attack too.

[Torah613]

hmm let me clarify things for y'all.

The person you are referring to has been gone from the forum for several days now (since erev Shabbos IIRC). She, like all but two (me and Kivi) Jews have left the forums, scrambled their passwords, changed their emails, and deleted their cookies. In short. These people could not come back and answer your question even if they had some perverse desire to do so.

from the way things have been going here lately, I can't say I blame them. Jews are monotheists, maybe there should only be one Jew on these forums. You wanna apply for the job Kivi?

Yochanan

[Melchizedek]

hmm let me clarify things for y'all.

The person you are referring to has been gone from the forum for several days now (since erev Shabbos IIRC). She, like all but two (me and Kivi) Jews have left the forums, scrambled their passwords, changed their emails, and deleted their cookies. In short. These people could not come back and answer your question even if they had some perverse desire to do so.

from the way things have been going here lately, I can't say I blame them. Jews are monotheists, maybe there should only be one Jew on these forums. You wanna apply for the job Kivi?

Yochanan

A Messianic Jew starts asking questions, and all other Jews flee? Where's the love for midrash, or do some on here don't have a stomach for it? I didn't think my question in the original post on this thread is that difficult to answer.

[Talmidah]

Yes, you have singlehandedly run off every single Jew, who have absolutely nothing better to do than sit at some Christian website and argue with mostly gentiles and have their posts reported/edited/deleted for stating clearly what true Judaism believes.

Puh-leeze. Get over yourself. There is real life and real death taking place outside of this forum and most of the Jews finally realized that this place is nothing, there is no point to being here. Going back and forth about these little things, when there is so much work to do in the real world, real life to live.

Amazing.

[Melchizedek]

I was just curious as to why no one was responding to the question in the original post of this thread. I took Torah613's response in this thread to be meaning that it was because of this thread they were leaving, since this is my thread I started. It has nothing to do with an ego, but everything to do with honest dialogue.

And yes, if all one has is emotional retorts, then there are certainly better things to do in life than respond in such a way to a simple question asked in the original post.

[Torah613]

A Messianic Jew starts asking questions, and all other Jews flee? Where's the love for midrash, or do some on here don't have a stomach for it? I didn't think my question in the original post on this thread is that difficult to answer.

your asking questions has absolutely nothing to do with why most of hte Jews have left, and the rest of us are keeping a smaller presence (and will most likely be leaving anyways). We simply have better things to do with our time, such as bringing the real Moshiach, doing Mitzvoth, davening, working for aliyah, etc.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

Oh please, I posted in here to answer your question as to why your question was not being answered.

Gavi, a big Omayn! to that new sig banner. I am sad that I am not a family member and thus robbed of the mitzvah of kriah over these martyrs to Judaism. Although, my heart and neshama are rent like no garment could be. Bezrat Hashem, Moshiach will come soon and put an end to this nonsense.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

A Messianic starts asking questions, and all Jews flee?

It has nothing to do with you, so don't pat yourself on the back...
it has do with other issues entirely.
Some of us will on occasion hang around, most of us won't.

But Kivi should remain here adequately to answer your questions.

[visionary]

Why is it so difficult to talk about the Messiah... even if we are talking about two different ones with those of the Jewish faith? I know that it exists in their Rabbi's works.

Rambam's Conception of Mashiach and the Ultimate Redemption.

These chapters conclude the final section (Hilchos Melachim - "The Laws Concerning Kings") of the final book (Sefer Shoftim - "The Book of Judges") of the Mishneh Torah, and are sometimes referred to separately as Hilchos Melech HaMashiach - "The Laws Concerning King Mashiach."

http://jdstone.org/cr/files/thelawsconcerningmashiach.html

[visionary]

Out of that book we have things in common.

"A star shall go forth from Yaakov" - This refers to David; "and a staff shall arise in Israel" - This refers to King Mashiach.

[visionary]

Same book.. another common Messiah passage...

He will then perfect the entire world, [motivating all the nations] to serve G-d together, as it is written [Zephaniah, 3:9], "I will make the peoples pure of speech so that they will all call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one purpose."

[visionary]

I believe we all can agree with this...
"When the true Messiah king will arise and prove successful, his [position becoming] exalted and uplifted, they will all return and realize that their ancestors endowed them with a false heritage; their prophets and ancestors cause them to err."

It came from the same book.

[Tishri1]

WOW Vis:thumbsup:

[muffler dragon]

Anyone seen the refutation that should have been in post 1? Must have got side-tracked.

[Melchizedek]

Anyone seen the refutation that should have been in post 1? Must have got side-tracked.

If one can't see that Gen 1-3 is literal, then I imagine you probably couldn't see a refutation to Noachide theology in post 1.

I gave up arguing over uncommon ground years ago.

[muffler dragon]

If Israel is "a nation that will dwell alone" according to the Torah (Numbers 23:9), then how is it the nations will inherit a place in the World to Come?

If one can't see that Gen 1-3 is literal, then I imagine you probably couldn't see a refutation to Noachide theology in post 1.

I gave up arguing over uncommon ground years ago.

[sarcasm]You're completely correct. Using the "World to Come" as a refutation to commandments regarding how to live your life now is DEFINITELY valid.[/quote]

Do you even read what you write? The WTC is as relevant to Noachidism as Buddha is to Cheese.

[Melchizedek]

[sarcasm]You're completely correct. Using the "World to Come" as a refutation to commandments regarding how to live your life now is DEFINITELY valid.

Do you even read what you write? The WTC is as relevant to Noachidism as Buddha is to Cheese.[/quote]

Noachide theology says the nations will have a place in the world to come. How come then Torah says Israel will dwell alone?

[muffler dragon]

Noachide theology says the nations will have a place in the world to come. How come then Torah says Israel will dwell alone?

I don't know of any where in the Tanakh where it says only Israel has a place in the WTC. Furthermore, as I said above, the WTC is irrelevant. The Seven Laws deal with the here and now; not the future. Therefore, your strawman attempt at a refutation is mooted.

[Melchizedek]

I don't know of any where in the Tanakh where it says only Israel has a place in the WTC. Furthermore, as I said above, the WTC is irrelevant. The Seven Laws deal with the here and now; not the future. Therefore, your strawman attempt at a refutation is mooted.

The Torah clearly says Israel will dwell alone:

Numbers 23:9
For from the top of the rocks I see him, and from the hills I behold him: lo, it is a people that shall dwell alone, and shall not be reckoned among the nations.

If they shall dwell alone, when will that be? If alone, then where are the nations?

But since you throw out the authority of the Torah by disbelieving its words, how can you even claim to be a Noachide?

You rejected a glorified strawman when you left Christianity to pursue a life of Noachide acceptance, yet you've accepted nothing and have rejected everything:

You've made yourself an idol, yet by claiming to be a Noachide, you claim you have no idols. Give up bowing to yourself, and return to the Word of the LORD who made you.

Make true teshuvah, and you will indeed live, not blaspheming God, the Word of the LORD, in whose image you have been made in. You claim to be of God, yet reject his Word by your words and actions. This is blasphemy.

Repent be forgiven of your rejection of the Word of the LORD, and be not counted as one who murdered the Messiah by your sin.

Return to the Torah and believe what it says in Gen 1-3 as it says "In the beginning God..." and you will have stopped your theivery of the Torah, and robbing yourself of the blessing you would have had had you accepted it, and kept from robbing the blessings from others had they kept it by your example since by living contrary to it you commit idolatry, blaspheme HaShem, and commited murder.

Return to the Torah, and you will be kept from the adultery of lusting after other gods, specifically yourself and your own lusts, and a lust for a Torah that doesn't exist, or for whatever lust which drove you to believe Gen 1-3 is not literal as it says it is literal, contrary to your belief.

By returning to the Torah, the Messiah, Yeshua, you will not profane the Pesach sacrifice, by keeping his Word while he remains alive for you (and not dead for your sins) to condemn you for your disobedience to him. You will have claimed to have obeyed the Word of God, but in reality you stand condemned by Him. You eat the carrion of a strawman, of a mauled Torah when you disbelieve its contents and accept what's left.

Obey the Messiah, Yeshua, and you will establish his court of Torah, his kingdom by your obedience to Torah, and thus rule and reign with him in the World to Come. Fail to do this, and you will not establish courts of justice.

Until you return to the Messiah, Yeshua, the Word of the LORD, you will be in constant violation of all seven laws of Noach which you claim to ascribe to. I pray you may see your true condition, and make true teshuvah, back to the Messiah, to the Word of the LORD, him who you must obey and by that, live.

[RebYosef]

If they shall dwell alone, when will that be?


When they crossed the river Jordan?

If alone, then where are the nations?

At their home?

[muffler dragon]

The Torah clearly says Israel will dwell alone:

Numbers 23:9
For from the top of the rocks I see him, and from the hills I behold him: lo, it is a people that shall dwell alone, and shall not be reckoned among the nations.

Not one word about the World To Come. Bummer hal.

[visionary]

I don't know of any where in the Tanakh where it says only Israel has a place in the WTC. Furthermore, as I said above, the WTC is irrelevant. The Seven Laws deal with the here and now; not the future. Therefore, your strawman attempt at a refutation is mooted.That is great news... Thank you Muffler.:hug:

[muffler dragon]

That is great news... Thank you Muffler.:hug:

You're welcome.

[visionary]

You're welcome.So what does happen to a noahider in the world to come? :idea:

[muffler dragon]

So what does happen to a noahider in the world to come? :idea:

Some believe that there is a place for us, some don't. I figure it will all pan out. Besides, my purpose isn't to worry about the unknown; but instead, to concern myself with how I can do the best at what's asked of me now.

[LittleLambofJesus]

So what does happen to a noahider in the world to come? :idea:
Originally Posted by muffler dragon http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=48102056#post48102056) I don't know of any where in the Tanakh where it says only Israel has a place in the WTC. Furthermore, as I said above, the WTC is irrelevant. The Seven Laws deal with the here and now; not the future. Therefore, your strawman attempt at a refutation is mooted.
Greetings. According to Ezekiel 37:22, the 2 houses split after Solomon will be One again under one King. :wave:

Ezekiel 37:22 And I make them to a-Nation, One in land, in mountains of Israel. And a King, One, shall become for all of them to a-King: and not they shall be further to two of Nations, and not they shall be divided furthur to two of Kingdoms further

Zephaniah 3:15 YHWH takes away judgements of thee. He makes face-about one being enemy of thee. King of Yisra'el, YHWH in within of thee, not thou shall fear evil further.

[Melchizedek]

When they crossed the river Jordan?

The Torah does not say nor imply that.

At their home?The Torah does not say nor imply that.

The Torah is clear that they will dwell alone. Period. This has not happened yet. They were alone in the desert and they dwelt there, and all the nations were in their home, so we know this is not talking of their current condition. It is written "will" dwell alone. If they were already alone according to your definition, and the nations were in their place, how then can the Torah say "will" dwell alone, instead of "will continue to dwell alone" or "who dwell alone now, and will dwell alone in the future"? The Torah does not say this. It only says "will dwell alone." No mention of nations, no mention of Jordan.

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Torah does not say nor imply that.

The Torah does not say nor imply that.

The Torah is clear that they will dwell alone. Period. This has not happened yet. They were alone in the desert and they dwelt there, and all the nations were in their home, so we know this is not talking of their current condition. It is written "will" dwell alone. If they were already alone according to your definition, and the nations were in their place, how then can the Torah say "will" dwell alone, instead of "will continue to dwell alone" or "who dwell alone now, and will dwell alone in the future"? The Torah does not say this. It only says "will dwell alone." No mention of nations, no mention of Jordan.Don't forget the crossing over the Red Sea event :wave:

Luke 16:26 And on all of these, between Us [NC Faith/Life] and Ye [OC Law/Death] a great chasm/casma <5490> hath been established, so that those willing to cross-over/diabhnai <1224> (5629) hence toward ye not be able to, no yet thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276>.

Hebrews 11:29 By Faith They crossed-over/diebhsan <1224> (5627) the Red Sea as thru Dry: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

[Melchizedek]

my purpose isn't to worry about the unknown; but instead, to concern myself with how I can do the best at what's asked of me now.

What is asked of you now is to not worship idols (including the idol of self), not blaspheme God (which includes not rejecting his commandments which teach to obey the Messiah), not fornicate (lust after false doctrines), not commit murder (not be counted as one who murdered the Messiah), to establish justice (by obeying the Messiah), to not rob (take away from the Torah concerning who the Messiah is). All of which by your own words, you admit that you are doing.

Repent. Make teshuvah to the Torah. Believe the King is coming. How terrible it will be for those who claim to be the King's servant, but are found not doing his will. On the other hand, how good will it then be for those who the King finds doing his will, even if they don't realize they are being his servant.

Shalom.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Repent. Make teshuvah to the Torah. Believe the King is coming.Umm, their King already came didn't He?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Ezekiel 38:19 ,and in jealousy of Me, in fire of rage of Me I speak, if not in day, the-he, shall become a quaking/07494 ra`ash, great, on ground/0127 'adamah of Israel?

Matt 21:10 And of entering Him into Jerusalem, is moved/shaken/eseisqh <4579> all the city saying, `Who-any is this?'

[RebYosef]

The Torah does not say nor imply that.

Huh. I checked the Oxford Biblical Commentary for a Christian understanding, and it seems to agree this blessing was fufilled later, but taken away ( Blessings and Curseings, you know....)

I already know what Jewish sources have to say on the literl and non-literal :)

The Torah does not say nor imply that.

So, where were the nations?

The Torah is clear that they will dwell alone.

Did and will again.

Period. This has not happened yet.

Couple of times, I reffer you to "Early History of the Israelite people" by T.L Thompson.

They were alone in the desert and they dwelt there,

Well, Balaam and Balak were there at Bamoth-baal.

and all the nations were in their home so we know this is not talking of their current condition.

Nope.

It is written "will" dwell alone. If they were already alone according to your definition, and the nations were in their place, how then can the Torah say "will" dwell alone, instead of "will continue to dwell alone" or "who dwell alone now, and will dwell alone in the future"? The Torah does not say this. It only says "will dwell alone." No mention of nations, no mention of Jordan.

I think you fundamentally misunderstood me. This blessing is reffering to when they cross the Jordan and take Israel as their home. This plays into the whole cycles of blessings and curseings that plays into the entire Tanakh. They had not done so, when Balaam said this blessing, but had just defeated the Amorites.

If you want to know how those other nations will be reckoned in the Olam ha-Ba, I reffer you to Numbers Rabbah, Chapter 20 and Tanchuma Balak.

[muffler dragon]

What is asked of you now is to not worship idols (including the idol of self), not blaspheme God (which includes not rejecting his commandments which teach to obey the Messiah), not fornicate (lust after false doctrines), not commit murder (not be counted as one who murdered the Messiah), to establish justice (by obeying the Messiah), to not rob (take away from the Torah concerning who the Messiah is). All of which by your own words, you admit that you are doing.

Repent. Make teshuvah to the Torah. Believe the King is coming. How terrible it will be for those who claim to be the King's servant, but are found not doing his will. On the other hand, how good will it then be for those who the King finds doing his will, even if they don't realize they are being his servant.

Shalom.

I don't follow YOUR interpretation of the Seven Laws of Noach. I'm not taking your bait. In fact, the way you view my beliefs and the way you interpret the Jewish Scriptures have ZERO relevance and/or influence on me. Therefore, feel free to continue with attempting to shame me into my previous belief structure. It ain't happenin', but by all means, waste your effort.

[LittleLambofJesus]

They were alone in the desert and they dwelt there
Well, Balaam and Balak were there at Bamoth-baal.
Greetings. I am surprised a Messianic did not bring up the Balaam and Balak mentioned in the GNT. :wave:

Reve 2:14 But I am having against of thee a few, that thou are having there ones-holding the teaching of Balaam, who taught to-the Balak to be casting a snare before the sons of Israel, to be eating idol sacrifices and to prostitute. [Numbers 22, 23,24]

Micah 6:5 People of Me! remember thou! please!, what Balaq counseled, king of Mow'ab and what Bil`am son of B@`owr answered him from the Shittiym unto the Gilgal, so that to know of righteousness of YHWH.

[kivi]

kivi says: The Torah teaches that "All of B'nai Israel and the Righteous of the Nations have a portion in Olam Habah."


Some believe that there is a place for us, some don't. I figure it will all pan out. Besides, my purpose isn't to worry about the unknown; but instead, to concern myself with how I can do the best at what's asked of me now.

[kivi]

So what does happen to a noahider in the world to come? :idea:

kivi says: The Torah teaches that "All of B'nai Israel and the Righteous of the Nations have a portion in Olam Habah."

[visionary]

Does that mean everyon is under different laws in the WTC like we are told is now for the nation of Israel and the rest of the world. Or will there be only one kingdom under God?

[muffler dragon]

kivi says: The Torah teaches that "All of B'nai Israel and the Righteous of the Nations have a portion in Olam Habah."

Kivi:

Would you mind sharing some passages that express it?

Thank you.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Kivi:

Would you mind sharing some passages that express it?

Thank you.How about Isaiah 60?

Isaiah 60:1 Arise! Shine!; that Thy light came, and glory of YHWH on you He radiates.
2 For behold!, the darkness is covering land, and gross-darkness peoples; and over you YHWH is being radiant, and His glory over you is appearing.
3 And Nations go to Thy light, and Kings to brightness of thy rising/radiance. [Matt 4:16/John1:3,4]

Matt 4:16 The people, the one-sitting in darkness perceived a Light, great.
And/also to-the ones-sitting in part and shadow of death, a Light springs-up to-them. [Isaiah 60:2,3]

[kivi]

Does that mean everyon is under different laws in the WTC like we are told is now for the nation of Israel and the rest of the world. Or will there be only one kingdom under God?
kivi says: One kingdom under G-d.

[kivi]

Kivi:

Would you mind sharing some passages that express it?

Thank you.

kivi says: I purposely have linked to a source that includes more than just the Obsrvant view so that you can see that the idea is trhough all of the different flavors of Judaism"
http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife

Level: Basic


Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/death.htm) is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion. It is possible for an Orthodox (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/orthodox.htm) Jew to believe that the souls of the righteous dead go to a place similar to the Christian heaven, or that they are reincarnated through many lifetimes, or that they simply wait until the coming of the messiah (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/messiah.htm), when they will be resurrected. Likewise, Orthodox Jews can believe that the souls of the wicked are tormented by demons of their own creation, or that wicked souls are simply destroyed at death, ceasing to exist. Biblical References to the Afterlife


Some scholars claim that belief in the afterlife is a teaching that developed late in Jewish history. It is true that the Torah (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/torah.htm) emphasizes immediate, concrete, physical rewards and punishments rather than abstract future ones. See, for example, Lev. 26:3-9 and Deut. 11:13-15. However, there is clear evidence in the Torah of belief in existence after death. The Torah indicates in several places that the righteous will be reunited with their loved ones after death, while the wicked will be excluded from this reunion.
The Torah speaks of several noteworthy people being "gathered to their people." See, for example, Gen. 25:8 (Abraham (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/abraham.htm)), 25:17 (Ishmael (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/ishmael.htm)), 35:29 (Isaac (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/isaac.htm)), 49:33 (Jacob (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/jacob.htm)), Deut. 32:50 (Moses (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/moses.htm) and Aaron (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/aaron.htm)) II Kings 22:20 (King Josiah). This gathering is described as a separate event from the physical death of the body or the burial.
Certain sins are punished by the sinner being "cut off from his people." See, for example, Gen. 17:14 and Ex. 31:14. This punishment is referred to as kareit (kah-REHYT) (literally, "cutting off," but usually translated as "spiritual excision"), and it means that the soul loses its portion in the World to Come.
Later portions of the Tanakh (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/tanakh.htm) speak more clearly of life after death and the World to Come. See Dan. 12:2, Neh. 9:5. Resurrection and Reincarnation


Belief in the eventual resurrection of the dead is a fundamental belief of traditional Judaism. It was a belief that distinguished the Pharisees (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/pharisees.htm) (intellectual ancestors of Rabbinical Judaism (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/rabbinical.htm)) from the Sadducees (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/sadducees.htm). The Sadducees rejected the concept, because it is not explicitly mentioned in the Torah (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/torah.htm). The Pharisees found the concept implied in certain verses.
Belief in resurrection of the dead is one of Rambam (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/rambam.htm)'s 13 Principles of Faith (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/13.htm). The second blessing of the Shemoneh Esrei prayer (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/shemoneh.htm), which is recited three times daily, contains several references to resurrection. (Note: the Reform (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/reform.htm) movement, which apparently rejects this belief, has rewritten the second blessing accordingly).
The resurrection of the dead will occur in the messianic age (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/messianic.htm), a time referred to in Hebrew as the Olam Ha-Ba, the World to Come, but that term is also used to refer to the spiritual afterlife. When the messiah (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/messiah.htm) comes to initiate the perfect world of peace and prosperity, the righteous dead will be brought back to life and given the opportunity to experience the perfected world that their righteousness helped to create. The wicked dead will not be resurrected.
There are some mystical (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/mysticism.htm) schools of thought that believe resurrection is not a one-time event, but is an ongoing process. The souls of the righteous are reborn in to continue the ongoing process of tikkun olam, mending of the world. Some sources indicate that reincarnation is a routine process, while others indicate that it only occurs in unusual circumstances, where the soul left unfinished business behind. Belief in reincarnation is also one way to explain the traditional Jewish belief that every Jewish soul in history was present at Sinai and agreed to the covenant with G-d (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/g-d.htm). (Another explanation: that the soul exists before the body, and these unborn souls were present in some form at Sinai). Belief in reincarnation is commonly held by many Chasidic (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/chasidic.htm) sects, as well as some other mystically-inclined Jews. See, for example Reincarnation Stories from Chasidic Tradition (http://www.pinenet.com/~rooster/stories.html). Olam Ha-Ba: The World to Come


The spiritual afterlife is referred to in Hebrew as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come, although this term is also used to refer to the messianic age (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/messianic.htm). The Olam Ha-Ba is another, higher state of being.
In the Mishnah (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/mishnah.htm), one rabbi says, "This world is like a lobby before the Olam Ha-Ba. Prepare yourself in the lobby so that you may enter the banquet hall." Similarly, the Talmud says, "This world is like the eve of Shabbat (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/shabbat.htm), and the Olam Ha-Ba is like Shabbat. He who prepares on the eve of Shabbat will have food to eat on Shabbat." We prepare ourselves for the Olam Ha-Ba through Torah (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/torah.htm) study and good deeds.
The Talmud (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/talmud.htm) states that all Israel has a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. However, not all "shares" are equal. A particularly righteous person will have a greater share in the Olam Ha-Ba than the average person. In addition, a person can lose his share through wicked actions. There are many statements in the Talmud that a particular mitzvah (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/mitzvot.htm) will guarantee a person a place in the Olam Ha-Ba, or that a particular sin will lose a person's share in the Olam Ha-Ba, but these are generally regarded as hyperbole, excessive expressions of approval or disapproval.
Some people look at these teachings and deduce that Jews try to "earn our way into Heaven" by performing the mitzvot. This is a gross mischaracterization of our religion. It is important to remember that unlike some religions, Judaism is not focused on the question of how to get into heaven. Judaism is focused on life and how to live it. Non-Jews frequently ask me, "do you really think you're going to go to Hell if you don't do such-and-such?" It always catches me a bit off balance, because the question of where I am going after death simply doesn't enter into the equation when I think about the mitzvot. We perform the mitzvot because it is our privilege and our sacred obligation to do so. We perform them out of a sense of love and duty, not out of a desire to get something in return. In fact, one of the first bits of ethical advice in Pirkei Avot (a book of the Mishnah (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/mishnah.htm)) is: "Be not like servants who serve their master for the sake of receiving a reward; instead, be like servants who serve their master not for the sake of receiving a reward, and let the awe of Heaven [meaning G-d (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/g-d.htm), not the afterlife] be upon you."
Nevertheless, we definitely believe that your place in the Olam Ha-Ba is determined by a merit system based on your actions, not by who you are or what religion you profess. In addition, we definitely believe that humanity is capable of being considered righteous in G-d's eyes, or at least good enough to merit paradise after a suitable period of purification.
Do non-Jews have a place in Olam Ha-Ba? Although there are a few statements to the contrary in the Talmud (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/talmud.htm), the predominant view of Judaism is that the righteous of all nations (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/nation.htm) have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. Statements to the contrary were not based on the notion that membership in Judaism was required to get into Olam Ha-Ba, but were grounded in the observation that non-Jews were not righteous people. If you consider the behavior of the surrounding peoples at the time that the Talmud was written, you can understand the rabbis' attitudes. By the time of Rambam (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/rambam.htm), the belief was firmly entrenched that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. Gan Eden and Gehinnom


The place of spiritual reward for the righteous is often referred to in Hebrew as Gan Eden (GAHN ehy-DEHN) (the Garden of Eden). This is not the same place where Adam and Eve were; it is a place of spiritual perfection. Specific descriptions of it vary widely from one source to another. One source says that the peace that one feels when one experiences Shabbat (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/shabbat.htm) properly is merely one-sixtieth of the pleasure of the afterlife. Other sources compare the bliss of the afterlife to the joy of sex or the warmth of a sunny day. Ultimately, though, the living can no more understand the nature of this place than the blind can understand color.
Only the very righteous go directly to Gan Eden. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom (guh-hee-NOHM) (in Yiddish (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/yiddish.htm), Gehenna), but sometimes as She'ol or by other names. According to one mystical (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/mysticism.htm) view, every sin we commit creates an angel of destruction (a demon), and after we die we are punished by the very demons that we created. Some views see Gehinnom as one of severe punishment, a bit like the Christian Hell of fire and brimstone. Other sources merely see it as a time when we can see the actions of our lives objectively, see the harm that we have done and the opportunities we missed, and experience remorse for our actions. The period of time in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months, and then ascends to take his place on Olam Ha-Ba.
Only the utterly wicked do not ascend at the end of this period; their souls are punished for the entire 12 months. Sources differ on what happens at the end of those 12 months: some say that the wicked soul is utterly destroyed and ceases to exist while others say that the soul continues to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse.
This 12-month limit is repeated in many places in the Talmud (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/talmud.htm), and it is connected to the mourning cycles and the recitation of Kaddish (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/kaddish.htm). See Life, Death and Mourning (http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm). Recommended Reading


http://www.jewfaq.org/graphics/amazon3.gif (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?tag=judaism101&path=ts/browse-books/12540)The following books can be found in many major bookstores, or click the links to buy the book online from amazon.com.
Adin Steinsaltz's The Thirteen Petalled Rose (Hardcover) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0876684509/judaism101) or (Paperback (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/046508561X/judaism101)) is a complete mystical cosmology written by one of the greatest Jewish scholars alive today. It discusses the various levels of existence, the angels and demons that are created by our actions, the concept of reincarnation, and many other subjects of interest.
For an outline of Jewish thought on the afterlife, see The Death of Death : Resurrection and Immortality in Jewish Thought (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1879045613/judaism101), by Neil Gillman. Gillman is a Conservative rabbi and a professor of Jewish philosophy at the Jewish Theological Seminary (a most important school for Conservative rabbis).
For information about the wide variety of Jewish views on what happens after death, see Simcha Paull Raphael's book, Jewish Views of the Afterlife (Hardcover) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0876685831/judaism101) or (Paperback (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1568219385/judaism101)). Raphael, a Reconstructionist rabbi, takes a historical approach to life-after-death theories, exploring the views that predominated in each era of Jewish history.
© Copyright (http://www.jewfaq.org/copyright.htm) 5759-5760 (1999), Tracey R Rich
http://www.jewfaq.org/graphics/sig.gif

[fremen]

Hi, :wave:
Still looking for an honest answer?
It is taught by our sages that Torah was offered to all nations in the world. However, only Am Israel decided to take it.

Most sages believe that in the Olam Haba all nations will once again be offered the Torah, and they will accept it this time. Hence, they become one with Israel.

Kol tov,
Fremen


If Israel is "a nation that will dwell alone" according to the Torah (Numbers 23:9), then how is it the nations will inherit a place in the World to Come?

[Torah613]

excellent questions fremen!

yochanan

[Tishri1]

This may have been ask already but why restrict folks from following the Torah and being one nation under God now?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Melchizedek http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47800036#post47800036) If Israel is "a nation that will dwell alone" according to the Torah (Numbers 23:9), then how is it the nations will inherit a place in the World to Come?
I would say the Nations will all walk by the Light of the Messiah that YHWH brings [or brought] to Israel and Judah.
The Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation pretty much follows Isaiah I believe. Thoughts? :wave:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 60:1 Arise!, shine!; that your light came, and glory of YHWH on you He radiates.
2 For behold!, the darkness is covering land, and gross-darkness peoples; and over you YHWH is being radiant, and His Glory over you is appearing.
3 And Nations go to Thy light, and Kings to brightness of thy rising/radiance.

Reve 21:23 And the city not need is having of the sun, neither of the moon, that they should be appearing to her. For the Glory of the God illuminates her and the Lamp of her, the Lamb-kin.
24 And shall be walking the Nations by the Light of her, and the Kings of the land are carrying the glory and honor of them into her.

[kivi]

This may have been ask already but why restrict folks from following the Torah and being one nation under God now?
kivi says: How many priests do you need? How many educators do you need. The job market for these positions is fairly limited. A small nation like B'nai Israel with a deep commitment to do the job should be more than enough. That is the job description for B'nai Israel. As for the Torah, does everybody have to take Teacher's Education 101: Practice and Theory? Not hardly. But that's what the Torah of Moshe Rebbaneu is, the teacher's manual. I promise you, not everybody needs a "Master's Arts in Teaching" [that's one of my Master's]. The other 60 Nations have other jobs. None more or less important than the job given to B'nai Israel.

[kivi]

I would say the Nations will all walk by the Light of the Messiah that YHWH brings [or brought] to Israel and Judah.
The Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation pretty much follows Isaiah I believe. Thoughts? :wave:

kivi says: Revelations is is part of as long tradition of apocolyptic literature, something like the current science fiction literature describing different ways the world ends, like Stephen Kings: The Stand or Arthur Clark's Childhood Ends. The point being that it has no additional authenticity or authority than anything else in the New Testament which is none, according to Judaism. If you find it enjoyable reading, then go for it, but as for how the world ends, it is hardly how Judaism envisions it.

[kivi]

I would say the Nations will all walk by the Light of the Messiah that YHWH brings [or brought] to Israel and Judah.
The Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation pretty much follows Isaiah I believe. Thoughts? :wave:
kivi says: To walk alone does not mean isolated or abandoned or forgotten or locked away. It means we have our mission, not better and not worse, which is not shared by the other Nations. The method we where to use for teaching is for the Nations around us to come to us for instruction on the Torah of Noach just like the other 11 tribes of B'nai Israel were to come to the cities of the Kohan for instruction on Torah of Moshe Rabbeneu.

[LittleLambofJesus]

[quote=LittleLambofJesus;48366268]I would say the Nations will all walk by the Light of the Messiah that YHWH brings [or brought] to Israel and Judah.
The Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation pretty much follows Isaiah I believe. Thoughts? :wave:{/quote]
kivi says: To walk alone does not mean isolated or abandoned or forgotten or locked away. It means we have our mission, not better and not worse, which is not shared by the other Nations. The method we where to teach is for the Nations around us to come to us for instruction on the Torah of Noach just like the other 11 tribes of B'nai Israel were to come to the cities of the Kohan for instruction on Torah of Moshe Rabbeneu.I understand and thanks for a thoughtful response.
Btw, as much as I hate posting on the Eschatology board, I put up a topic on Dan 7/12 concerning the translation. Could ya perhaps take a look at it and give me your translation/interpretation of the 2 differen words used for "Time, Times, Half a Time? Thanks and Shalom :hug:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7277256
Question on word Time in Dan 7 and 12

[kivi]

[quote=kivi;48370218]I understand and thanks for a thoughtful response.
Btw, as much as I hate posting on the Eschatology board, I put up a topic on Dan 7/12 concerning the translation. Could ya perhaps take a look at it and give me your translation/interpretation of the 2 differen words used for "Time, Times, Half a Time? Thanks and Shalom :hug:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7277256
Question on word Time in Dan 7 and 12
kivi says: To be honest, I stay away from that stuff. All that prophecy stuff. I know it is real and I know that it is important, I also know that I don't have the educational level to deal with it. Since prophecy is so dependent on the conditions and actions of humans [see Jonah], to try to guess what might be the correct interpertation is a case of hubris on my part.

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: To be honest, I stay away from that stuff. All that prophecy stuff. I know it is real and I know that it is important, I also know that I don't have the educational level to deal with it. Since prophecy is so dependent on the conditions and actions of humans [see Jonah], to try to guess what might be the correct interpertation is a case of hubris on my part.

Yes, we should take note of that. The prophetic/apocalyptic writings are almost always the plaything of the more excitable intepreters of every era.

[kivi]

Yes, we should take note of that. The prophetic/apocalyptic writings are almost always the plaything of the more excitable intepreters of every era.

kvi says: It is also a matter of credibility. I know my strengths, and I know my weaknesses. Why should I claim what I don't have except to try to look good and set myself up for humiliation when I do run into someone who really does know what they are talking about. I am trained in history. I am trained in document analysis. I am trained in historical research. I can tell inaccurate/out-of-place/erronous/incompatable historical information from a mile away. But prophecy, tha's totally beyound me and I like to keep it that way. I know that you got started on the Zohar and other more mystical aspects of Judaism and I backed off, immediately. Why? I don't know do-wackey about it and it bores me. So I stick with what I know, I don't get spectulative, I report the Torah True Tradition and I use the historical resources available in English that refer to that Tradition. I clearly mark/label myself when I am giving a personal opinion.

I know you got on me because one of the historic bibliographies I gave were all Orthodox sources and you said that of course I would come up Orthodox if I only used Orthodox sources. Well, my job is to give the Orthodox stand, I know that you and others will do very well with presenting other points of view, so I don't need to do that job. I need to do my job. The day you spend as much time and space giving the Orthodox stance on a matter as you do the Christian stance, then I can take the day off. But that's not your job and no none expects it is. Its my job and I take it seriously, as I would expect you to demand of me.

I have my integrity as I think you have yours. I trust yours, I hope you trust mine.