Signd and Wonders - how to tell counterfeit from real [Archive]

Tamara224

11th July 2008, 10:51 AM

We Charismatics all believe that Signs and Wonders are for today, and that God is actively using them for various of His purposes.

However, many have warned that this or that is the counterfeit we have been warned will come in the last days. When the Pharisees accused Jesus of that, He said that the devil doesn't work against himself (my paraphrase...) so, then - what do counterfeit miracles look like really??? Besides the inner knowing, and being sheep enough to know God's voice, discernment or what have you, what are the differences between the counterfeit and the real?

It seems to me that the counterfeits are usually more flashy and showy than the real thing. When you see a man or a woman making a big production about the miracles, he or she is drawing attention to him/herself.

Whenever a sign or wonder seems to point toward a human, or glorify a human (or human institution), then it's probably a counterfeit.

God's miracles bring glory to God.

dkbwarrior

11th July 2008, 11:29 AM

It seems to me that the counterfeits are usually more flashy and showy than the real thing. When you see a man or a woman making a big production about the miracles, he or she is drawing attention to him/herself.

Whenever a sign or wonder seems to point toward a human, or glorify a human (or human institution), then it's probably a counterfeit.

God's miracles bring glory to God.

Isn't that kinda subjective though? I mean, how many poeple have you met who wear their heart on their sleeve and are offended by everything? And I'm not talking about christian things here. Just people that think that everything you say is about them, or directed towards them.

And this is more common than one might think at first, and seems to have been a part of human nature as long as there have been humans. Just look at the gospels. Didn't Jesus at one point have to go hide Himself from the people, because they were going to come and forcibly make Him king?

You yourself have said to people on this very board (and I'm paraphrasing here so give me some leeway), "Well that may not have been your intent, but that is how I heard it", when I couldn't for the life of me see from either of the posts how you came to such a conclusion.

We interpret things through a lense. I do, you do, everybody does. We all have steroetypes, and expectations of others, and we tend to see what we expect to see.

Another example is Paul and Barnabas, when the people claimed that they were the gods come down in human form.

So I don't think it is very objective or accurate to say:

"Whenever a sign or wonder seems to point toward a human, or glorify a human..."

How about:

"When a human takes credit for a sign or wonder, rather that giving the Glory to God..."

Peace...

ImmersionX

11th July 2008, 12:29 PM

counterfeit miracles=
examples(general)...any healing that is not a complete healing!

True miracles of healing=
the paraplegic stands up and walks,
the blind literally can see everything in front of him, etc.

The kind of counterfeit miracles we see on TV and around various venues would vanish overnight if people knew the Scriptures. If people would actually read their Bibles these purveyors of another gospel would be out of business faster than they could say, “God wants you to sow a financial seed-of-faith offering.”

OH also.....MIRACLES ARE NOT, NOR EVER WERE SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCES!!!!!!!! Don't bother being or trying to be subjective regarding true miracles because subjective thinking has absolutely nothing to do with them....they either are....or they are not.
Miracles of God happen so as to be so far removed from subjectivity as possible that there is no question nor doubt that it's indeed from God Almighty.(for all christians to believe, not just the supposed "spirit-filled" bunch.)

A miracle of God happens when it happens, not by initiation of some revival.
If the dead are going to be raised.....they let it be done....completely ,instantly and and by the will of God.

Directly to the intent of the OP, I give an example of counterfeit miracles:

Gold-tooth fillings...and absurd phenomenon!!
Perhaps "Fallings in the Spirit" has now been superseded by "Fillings in the Spirit"!!!!!

JimfromOhio

11th July 2008, 01:27 PM

Counterfeits are tricky. Peter wrote in 2 Peter 2:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&verse=1&version=31&context=verse) But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 2:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=2&verse=5&version=51&context=verse) Never once did we try to win you with flattery, as you well know. And God is our witness that we were not pretending to be your friends just to get your money! (NLT)

Peter wrote in 2 Peter 2:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&verse=3&version=51&context=verse) In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed. (NLT)

JimfromOhio

11th July 2008, 01:27 PM

Duplicate

Faithful Love

11th July 2008, 02:02 PM

JimfromOhio

11th July 2008, 02:04 PM

Yes, they will smoothly enter in so that even the elect are deceived, contrary to an above poster who said they are flashy and showy.

Flashy and showy are pleasing to the eyes and those can be very deceiving for many.

Tamara224

11th July 2008, 02:48 PM

Isn't that kinda subjective though? I mean, how many poeple have you met who wear their heart on their sleeve and are offended by everything? And I'm not talking about christian things here. Just people that think that everything you say is about them, or directed towards them.

You mean people who take things personally when they shouldn't? Hehe, yep, there's alot of them around these here parts. ^_^

And this is more common than one might think at first, and seems to have been a part of human nature as long as there have been humans. Just look at the gospels. Didn't Jesus at one point have to go hide Himself from the people, because they were going to come and forcibly make Him king?

You yourself have said to people on this very board (and I'm paraphrasing here so give me some leeway), "Well that may not have been your intent, but that is how I heard it", when I couldn't for the life of me see from either of the posts how you came to such a conclusion.

We interpret things through a lense. I do, you do, everybody does. We all have steroetypes, and expectations of others, and we tend to see what we expect to see.

So, in a nutshell, you're saying that "flashy" and "drawing attention to self" are too subjective to be a measure of counterfeit. Did I get that right?

I agree that we all see through lenses - you're right, I've said that many times on this forum.

The flashiness and drawing attention to self is, I grant you, only one factor to be considered in the overall. I don't believe I expressed that very well in my first post, so I apologize for that.

But, I think that flashiness and attention-seeking is one of those things that is pretty much societal - the standards of society as a whole will determine much of what is considered flashy or attention-seeking. It's based on what we're used to seeing and on what we're willing to see, on average and as a whole population.

I mean, truth be told, most people would probably agree when something is overly-dramatic, hyped-up and a big production and thus, flashy. And when something is downright cheesy, most of us are able to spot it. I mean, how many people saw Space Balls and didn't think "cheesy"?

Another example is Paul and Barnabas, when the people claimed that they were the gods come down in human form.

Paul and Barnabas didn't do anything flashy to draw that attention. The people thought they were gods partly because there was a story in that city about the gods that the people matched to them. And as soon as the people started worshipping them, Paul and Barnabas made it abundantly clear that they weren't gods and didn't want to be called gods or worshipped as gods. And the people...the people dispersed in disappointment because Paul and Barnabas weren't really gods.

So I don't think it is very objective or accurate to say:

"Whenever a sign or wonder seems to point toward a human, or glorify a human..."

How about:

"When a human takes credit for a sign or wonder, rather that giving the Glory to God..."

Peace...

So, a charlatan just has to be really careful about the exact words that come out of his mouth to be safe from detection?

If he says with his lips "Glory to God" he's fine.

Even if, in his heart and in his actions he's really saying "Glory to me"?

And they do say it in their actions. They stand on stages yelling, shouting, shaking, jumping, running, pushing, allegedly healing people, supposedly hearing from God and angels every ten minutes and generally making sure that every single eye and thought in the room is on themselves.

And they promote their "revivals" and encourage people from everywhere in the world to book plane tickets and come catch some of the anointing and fill up their audience.

But if they throw in a "Glory to God" and a "Thank you, Jesus" every once in a while, they're safe from criticism and scrutiny.

Do you think the wolves are stupid? I figure that if they're smart enough to dress up like sheep and get in among the herd, then they're probably smart enough to figure out that they have to use some key Christianese phrases so as not to be detected.

dkbwarrior

11th July 2008, 05:16 PM

So, a charlatan just has to be really careful about the exact words that come out of his mouth to be safe from detection?

If he says with his lips "Glory to God" he's fine.

Well, he wont be 'fine', though I understand what you are saying. Wolves will have their day of judgement.

Even if, in his heart and in his actions he's really saying "Glory to me"?

Part of the problem here is that we don't know what is in a persons heart.

And they do say it in their actions. They stand on stages yelling, shouting, shaking, jumping, running, pushing, allegedly healing people, supposedly hearing from God and angels every ten minutes and generally making sure that every single eye and thought in the room is on themselves.

Isn't that kinda betraying a cultural bias? I don't quite see how yelling, shouting, shaking, jumping, etc., has any bearing on whether or not a person is a wolf or not. It seems extremely bigoted to think a style of preaching is indicative of a wolf.

Wouldn't that kinda be like saying that an indicator of a criminal is the color of their skin? After all, we know that a larger proportion of blacks have been in prison than whites, at least here in America. Even if you are statistically correct, you are morally incorrect. It is called bigotry.

(Not to mention, every preacher I've ever seen is making sure that every eye and thought in the room is on them. Have you met on that doesn't?)

And they promote their "revivals" and encourage people from everywhere in the world to book plane tickets and come catch some of the anointing and fill up their audience.

Every time that Billy Graham has had a crusade somewhere near where I have lived I have seen it advertised and yelled from the rooftops in all the local media from television to the local paper, I don't see how this is indicative of a wolfs actions either.

But if they throw in a "Glory to God" and a "Thank you, Jesus" every once in a while, they're safe from criticism and scrutiny.

Do you think the wolves are stupid? I figure that if they're smart enough to dress up like sheep and get in among the herd, then they're probably smart enough to figure out that they have to use some key Christianese phrases so as not to be detected.

Oh, I don't believe they are stupid at all. I just don't think that we should start judging a persons style as having any bearing whatsoever on their relationship with Christ, or the legitimacy of their calling or ministry. I for one don't feel responsible for judging another mans servant, and I would rather leave that up to God than start falling into the trap of false witness.

Peace...

charityagape

11th July 2008, 06:52 PM

They stand on stages yelling, shouting, shaking, jumping, running, pushing,

Every pentecostal church I've ever been in involved all of this and while I'm not strictly pentecostal, they're definitely not all wolves in sheep's clothing........so not really a good indicator.

JimfromOhio

11th July 2008, 07:19 PM

Depends on the message when a preacher pounces around preaching (i.e. Billy Graham). When I see showmanship, I listen for their messages and usually I found the hidden covetousness main message that is behind the main advertised message. Often their crafty speeches and their dynamic showmanship hides the real meaning of truth. Jesus warned in Luke 12:15, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

The problem though is that while we wondered if their motivation are noble, many people are runing to and are drinking from their messages to satisfy their thirst on their main messages that Jesus and His Word is polluted and even toxic. They do claim to be preaching the truth, and they do use the name “Jesus” a lot. But, we must ask the simple questions: are they really preaching the truth, and just what “Jesus” are they proclaiming?

Apostle Paul warns Christian listening to false teaching, “to be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine,” by the wolves that rise up from within the Christian community itself to devour the sheep. On one side is the Biblical view of God, and on the other is man’s idea of who and what God is which is coming from men who are creating doctrinals that are not orthodox. This is a very serious distortion of the Biblical teaching on this matter, and it can have significant negative consequences in the lives of believers, as they are driven to desperation, and even despair, when the healing that they are told is theirs, and that they are seeking with tears, is not forthcoming, and the reason it is not forthcoming, according to these teachers, is because these people don’t have enough faith. We have to remember faith is from us through God. It is through God's grace and power that we have strong faith.

merryheart

11th July 2008, 08:00 PM

I've always thought that "fake" miracles were at least one pretty good sign that I am looking at a wolf - but how to tell when the miracles are "fake"?

If a miracle happens to YOU - then of course you know whether it really has happened or not.

For me a compelling second hand scenario would be: you have eye-witnesses to the miracles and that they really happened, and you trust that eye-witness not to embellish for the woo-woo factor or to claim something is true that they have not seen in the natural yet. (I don't believe that a miracle happens until I can sense it with my 5 senses - otherwise how could they ever be a sign to an unbeliever???)

Short of that, I choose not to judge either way. In cases where you have a lot of publicity I naturally wonder, but I can't really say that I know. It's tempting to go running after what is happening, to see, to be healed, but so far, I have never done so, and I've never felt the Spirit nudging me that I should. I do pray that His kingdom will come and His will be done in my section of the earth :)

whatfor

11th July 2008, 08:08 PM

JimfromOhio

11th July 2008, 10:15 PM

I am not convinced your method to spot wolves are correct.

Just because they act that way doesn't make it a false sign or wonder.

I notice God seems to use excentric people, they don't care what others think.
Maybe they have to deal with the same as most of us, "pride" . It is hard not to get excited with what God is doing through us.

The signs and wonders can still be real, maybe God will deal with them after.
That's fine with you but maybe not with others. You may be having a hard time being convinced to accept whether some are false. This is your own personal relationship with God. In Hebrews 5:14 we are told that discernment comes with spiritual maturity that the Spirit works in us (diakrisis - Strong's #1253). We are in the world of self-deceit that we are too focused on ourselves to see the eternal truth. Do not have a "tunnel vision" based on brethren's beliefs alone. We need to look at their whole being rather than on the miracles, healings and etc. I went to some of them and saw some people got healed however the following week, I see them again and they are back to their normal selves. Some miracles are questionable and some even should be verified that we don't even know they were verified or not. It is my responsibility as a Christian to discern and I don't want to be gullible. I can either be gullible or discerner. I choose to be a discerner.

I am sad that many here don't. They just mock us and push us aside. That don't bother me anymore because I leave them to God and only God will judge them. We just see their fruits in their postings.

dkbwarrior

11th July 2008, 10:58 PM

That's fine with you but maybe not with others. You may be having a hard time being convinced to accept whether some are false.

Jim, I don't care wether or not some are false. I am sure they are. That is between them and God. My only job is to speak the truth, (Gods Word), not be a judge.

If someones doings don't line up with the Word, I don't accept it. Thats it. Some people are way to preoccupied with trying to sit in the Fathers seat as judge.

Peace...

busterdog

12th July 2008, 09:19 AM

It seems to me that the counterfeits are usually more flashy and showy than the real thing. When you see a man or a woman making a big production about the miracles, he or she is drawing attention to him/herself.

Whenever a sign or wonder seems to point toward a human, or glorify a human (or human institution), then it's probably a counterfeit.

God's miracles bring glory to God.

I understand what you were saying, which is why what I am about to say is that much more challenging.

Consider two characters: Heidi Baker She is famous for her poverty and miracles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7at_3pfqhRM No bad hair. Lots of dirt, poverty, disease and Islam where she is.

Todd Bentley. I won't condemn the guy, but I also dont see the need to vouch for somebody I dont know. But, his words on the internet to me are way too much about financial gifts from God and punching people to get them healed is well, outlandish. So, I am kinda with you on the showiness thing as a test of something. I really dont like a lot of TBN type stuff. I WONT watch it.

But, Heidi Baker has apparently spoken in Bentley's Church and in Toronto. If it is good enough for her, should it be good enough for us? That is an honest question, not an iron-clad argument.

I don't think the confidence we have in knocking particular Christians in this area is very wise at all. We are at the very shallow end of the signs and wonders pool. To assume that we are simultaneously in the deep end of the discernment pool is a bit presumptuous.

To me, if God will gift some of these crazy people will sometimes silly things, why aren't, the serious people, asking more for the serious and deep, impactful things? Why aren't we in the orphanages and old folks homes and cancer wards?

dkbwarrior

12th July 2008, 11:21 AM

busterdog

12th July 2008, 12:00 PM

I might add here, that in the parable of the wheat and the tares, the tares were allowed to grow with the wheat until the last day. Then it was the angels that gathered up the tares and removed them, not the wheat.

Anyone claiming to be wheat, who is trying to rip out the tares, isn't really acting like wheat at all. At least according to the parable.

Of course, that brings up an interesting thought. If the fruit you are spreading around is not that of wheat, and we are to know you by your fruit, then what should be our judgement of you? (You being a general term here, and not directed at any individual).

Peace...

Very interesting. Hadnt thought about it.

I would say that preaching against bad doctrine is a good thing, but, as you say, ripping people down (or out, like tares) is a bit different.

Many of the kingdom parables are about the admixture of kosher and nonkoser - leaven in three measures of meal, mustard bushes and unclean birds, etc.

dkbwarrior

12th July 2008, 12:29 PM

Todd Bentley. I won't condemn the guy, but I also dont see the need to vouch for somebody I dont know. But, his words on the internet to me are way too much about financial gifts from God and punching people to get them healed is well, outlandish. So, I am kinda with you on the showiness thing as a test of something. I really dont like a lot of TBN type stuff. I WONT watch it.

I like your approach here.

You know, I got saved in prison. I can link you to my testimony here (http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=46473543&postcount=5), and here (http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=46473560&postcount=6), if you are interested.

After I got out of the hole, I started watching TBN every day, every chance I got. I would go in my cell, and pull a blanket over the bars so nobody could see me, and watch TBN with the sound really low so no-one could hear me. It was invaluable for discipling me in those early years.

When I got out, I watched it all the time, but after awhile I began to lose interest, and now, eight years after getting out of prison, I cant really remember the last time I had it on.

Like your approach to TB, I think that though I have come to be bothered by alot of what I see on christian TV, it still has an invaluable use to those, like I was, that for whatever reason are unable to be part of a local church body, and thus, by extension, an invaluable tool for the body.

This would include prisoners, those in ill health, and even other countries where christianity is frowned on or even persecuted. This would explain alot of how christian TV has managed to evangelize whole countires that were/are hostile to the gospel.

It is easy to criticise and speak about what is wrong with it, but unless we are doing it ourselves, and offering an alternative, mabey we should just let God work the way He wants to. After all, those who are in it for the money will stand before God one day, and give an account. In the mean time, I rejoice that Christ is being preached, whether in pretense or in truth.

Peace...

charityagape

12th July 2008, 03:22 PM

We are at the very shallow end of the signs and wonders pool. To assume that we are simultaneously in the deep end of the discernment pool is a bit presumptuous.

WOW! Lot said here, IMO.

Tamara224

12th July 2008, 04:21 PM

Well, he wont be 'fine', though I understand what you are saying. Wolves will have their day of judgement.

Yes, so will everyone. That's not the point.

Part of the problem here is that we don't know what is in a persons heart.

Jesus didn't tell us we'd be able to tell the wolves by their hearts. He said we'd be able to tell by their fruit.

Isn't that kinda betraying a cultural bias? I don't quite see how yelling, shouting, shaking, jumping, etc., has any bearing on whether or not a person is a wolf or not. It seems extremely bigoted to think a style of preaching is indicative of a wolf.

I'm not talking about style of preaching, and I think you know that. I'm talking about attention seeking behavior. And, no, I don't think it's a cultural bias. I think you're ignoring the obvious. The guys I'm talking about are obviously over-hyped by pretty much anyone's standards. The only people I've ever talked to who didn't think they were cheesy, overblown, attention-seeking entertainers are people on forums who don't think that calling wolves wolves is ever a good idea. IOW, people who don't want to see it, won't. But pretty much everyone else does.

Wouldn't that kinda be like saying that an indicator of a criminal is the color of their skin? After all, we know that a larger proportion of blacks have been in prison than whites, at least here in America. Even if you are statistically correct, you are morally incorrect. It is called bigotry.

Nonsense. Bigotry is based on something a person has no control over - color of skin, ancestry, gender, etc.

What I'm talking about is how people choose to behave, not something they were born with or as.

Your argument is akin to the arguments used by those who call us all homophobes and bigots for thinking that homosexuality is sin.

(Not to mention, every preacher I've ever seen is making sure that every eye and thought in the room is on them. Have you met on that doesn't?)

Yes, I've met many who do nothing more than simply talk and don't make every effort to be wild and entertaining and thus draw all eyes and media to themselves. They don't laugh hysterically, they don't shout all the time with repetitive mantras, they don't wave their arms, jump around, run around or any of the other theatrics I've seen from many televangelists and revivalists.

Every time that Billy Graham has had a crusade somewhere near where I have lived I have seen it advertised and yelled from the rooftops in all the local media from television to the local paper, I don't see how this is indicative of a wolfs actions either.

Why do you guys always bring Billy Graham into these conversations? As if Billy Graham is the standard by all which are judged. Have you seen me prop up Billy Graham as an example for anyone to follow?

That being said... I've seen a few of Graham's evangelistic meetings on TV. As far as I can tell, he stands there and preaches. He doesn't wave his arms, shout, jump, laugh hysterically, or act hyped up or wild.

Advertising on the streets to get people to come to an outreach is very much different than the preacher doing the things I've described.

Oh, I don't believe they are stupid at all. I just don't think that we should start judging a persons style as having any bearing whatsoever on their relationship with Christ, or the legitimacy of their calling or ministry. I for one don't feel responsible for judging another mans servant, and I would rather leave that up to God than start falling into the trap of false witness.

Well, I think you're being willfully blind, then. Attention seeking behavior is clearly indicative of a person who is seeking to glorify self rather than God.

If we don't use discernment, we get blown about by every wind of doctrine.

God gave us brains and common sense. We should use them.

Peace...

And also to you.

busterdog

12th July 2008, 04:32 PM

I like your approach here.

You know, I got saved in prison. I can link you to my testimony here (http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=46473543&postcount=5), and here (http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=46473560&postcount=6), if you are interested.

After I got out of the hole, I started watching TBN every day, every chance I got. I would go in my cell, and pull a blanket over the bars so nobody could see me, and watch TBN with the sound really low so no-one could hear me. It was invaluable for discipling me in those early years.

When I got out, I watched it all the time, but after awhile I began to lose interest, and now, eight years after getting out of prison, I cant really remember the last time I had it on.

Like your approach to TB, I think that though I have come to be bothered by alot of what I see on christian TV, it still has an invaluable use to those, like I was, that for whatever reason are unable to be part of a local church body, and thus, by extension, an invaluable tool for the body.

This would include prisoners, those in ill health, and even other countries where christianity is frowned on or even persecuted. This would explain alot of how christian TV has managed to evangelize whole countires that were/are hostile to the gospel.

It is easy to criticise and speak about what is wrong with it, but unless we are doing it ourselves, and offering an alternative, mabey we should just let God work the way He wants to. After all, those who are in it for the money will stand before God one day, and give an account. In the mean time, I rejoice that Christ is being preached, whether in pretense or in truth.

Peace...

Sometimes I catch some TBN when I am traveling. The thing that freaked me out was the Dorian Gray-like wrinkle-less face of Joyce Meyers! The approach is just kinda too well produced for me.

But, I am sure the Lord finds a use for it.

If it were up to me, there would be many changes at TBN, but it aint. So, I hope the Lord uses it and Todd Bentley well.

By the way, does anyone think that it might be possible that even if Bentley is not a good guy (assume that for the sake of argument) that the gifts he exercises would still be authentic Holy Spirit gifts, as in the gifts are irrevocable?

I will check out the testimony. One good testimony is as good as about 20 sermons.

Tamara224

12th July 2008, 04:36 PM

By the way, does anyone think that it might be possible that even if Bentley is not a good guy (assume that for the sake of argument) that the gifts he exercises would still be authentic Holy Spirit gifts, as in the gifts are irrevocable?

Assuming for the sake of argument that TB is "not a good guy" - by which I think you mean that he's a wolf in sheep's clothing....Then no, I don't think the "gifts" he exercises are authentic Holy Spirit gifts. His miracles would be demonic, if he is indeed a wolf.

probinson

12th July 2008, 04:52 PM

I'm not talking about style of preaching, and I think you know that
Well, sure you are. You just don't want to admit it.

You apparently like more reserved people who just stand there and talk without waving their arms, and that's fine. I generally prefer the more quiet, laid back people also.

However, to equate these things to simple attention getting is to paint with a very broad brush.

Me? I'm generally a quiet guy. I don't generally wave my arms, jump up and down, scream and shout... I just sit at my keyboard, play and worship God, USUALLY, pretty reservedly. However, there are times when I will just start pounding the snot out of my keyboard, and shouting while I play, not because I am seeking anyone's attention, but because something comes over me, and I just want to SHOUT UNTO GOD.

My pastor? He's a VERY LOUD guy. He yells. He shouts. He has a boisterous voice. If ever there were 2 styles that were opposites, it would be mine and his. And yet, he has been my pastor for over 20 years, and God uses both of us, just as we are.

It would be highly unnatural for my pastor to quiet down. It's not who he is, nor is it how God made him, nor is it how he is in real life. It would be equally as unnatural for me to get up and start shouting. That's not how God made me, and it's certainly not how I respond.

You seem to be saying that it's impossible to just wave your arms out of a joy and excitement, and that the only conceivable reason someone would do that is to draw attention to themselves. IOW, you've already prejudged that if anyone waves their arms, laughs hysterically, etc., that they simply MUST be looking for attention.

Nonsense. Bigotry is based on something a person has no control over - color of skin, ancestry, gender, etc.

What I'm talking about is how people choose to behave, not something they were born with or as.

Your argument is akin to the arguments used by those who call us all homophobes and bigots for thinking that homosexuality is sin.
Bigotry has nothing to do with something a person has no control over;
A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry) is the corresponding state of mind.

probinson

12th July 2008, 04:58 PM

We Charismatics all believe that Signs and Wonders are for today, and that God is actively using them for various of His purposes.

However, many have warned that this or that is the counterfeit we have been warned will come in the last days. When the Pharisees accused Jesus of that, He said that the devil doesn't work against himself (my paraphrase...) so, then - what do counterfeit miracles look like really??? Besides the inner knowing, and being sheep enough to know God's voice, discernment or what have you, what are the differences between the counterfeit and the real?
We did a sketch when I was the youth leader, where we had a bunch of caramel covered apples, and one caramel covered onion. We made them all look exactly the same.

All of the miracles, counterfeit or not, look good on the surface. But when one really examines the fruit, that is where you can tell. Does the miracle point to God? Does the miracle result in salvation? Healing? Restoration? Reconciliation?

A counterfeit miracle will NEVER produce good fruit no matter how good it may look initially. Just ask that poor teen that bit into the caramel covered onion! ^_^

Jimbeaux

12th July 2008, 05:00 PM

If we judge TB’s (or anyone else’s) miracle-working powers only by his press releases, second hand “reports” and/or edited videos then we probably need to be a little more discerning. I am withholding judgment pro or con about what I hear is happening in Lakeland. If it is all true, then good for Lakeland, but it is not effecting my world. If it is untrue, then we have been duped if we believe it and probably deserve what we get.
~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

JimfromOhio

12th July 2008, 05:09 PM

Well, sure you are. You just don't want to admit it.

You apparently like more reserved people who just stand there and talk without waving their arms, and that's fine. I generally prefer the more quiet, laid back people also.

However, to equate these things to simple attention getting is to paint with a very broad brush.

Me? I'm generally a quiet guy. I don't generally wave my arms, jump up and down, scream and shout... I just sit at my keyboard, play and worship God, USUALLY, pretty reservedly. However, there are times when I will just start pounding the snot out of my keyboard, and shouting while I play, not because I am seeking anyone's attention, but because something comes over me, and I just want to SHOUT UNTO GOD.

My pastor? He's a VERY LOUD guy. He yells. He shouts. He has a boisterous voice. If ever there were 2 styles that were opposites, it would be mine and his. And yet, he has been my pastor for over 20 years, and God uses both of us, just as we are.

It would be highly unnatural for my pastor to quiet down. It's not who he is, nor is it how God made him, nor is it how he is in real life. It would be equally as unnatural for me to get up and start shouting. That's not how God made me, and it's certainly not how I respond.

You seem to be saying that it's impossible to just wave your arms out of a joy and excitement, and that the only conceivable reason someone would do that is to draw attention to themselves. IOW, you've already prejudged that if anyone waves their arms, laughs hysterically, etc., that they simply MUST be looking for attention.

Bigotry has nothing to do with something a person has no control over;
A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry) is the corresponding state of mind.

Actually, when we gather in a group, there are to respect of one another who is trying to "worship" because it is ultimately an issue of wrong priorities in our worship energy. True worship involves spiritually as well the intellect as much as the emotions from within and that the truth that worship is to be focused on God, not on the worshiper who is making all of the noises that distracts other worshippers.

Tamara224

12th July 2008, 05:30 PM

Well, sure you are. You just don't want to admit it.

No, I'm not talking just about style. It may be someone's style to be overhyped - which just means they make a habit of attention-seeking behavior.

Some people do tend to have a style that is louder and more boisterous without being over-hyped. But I think that's rare.

You might have a preacher who waves his arms occassionally, or who gets louder as he gets more passionate about the subject. Those things may be just style.

But I'm talking about the totality of their behavior.

You apparently like more reserved people who just stand there and talk without waving their arms, and that's fine. I generally prefer the more quiet, laid back people also.

No, I'm just like most people - I'm much more entertained by the wild and crazy, the out of the ordinary. So I "like" wild and crazy better. In one sense.

I just recognize that most of the time when it's wild and crazy, it's not glorifying God, but the wild and crazy person.

It's not about preferences, really.

However, to equate these things to simple attention getting is to paint with a very broad brush.

No, I don't think it is. As I've said before, flashiness and showmanship are just one factor to be considered. So it's not like I'm saying that he's loud and waves his arms, so he's per se false. It can be an indication of falseness, though.

So there's no broad brush here, I'm just pointing out a probability.

Me? I'm generally a quiet guy. I don't generally wave my arms, jump up and down, scream and shout... I just sit at my keyboard, play and worship God, USUALLY, pretty reservedly. However, there are times when I will just start pounding the snot out of my keyboard, and shouting while I play, not because I am seeking anyone's attention, but because something comes over me, and I just want to SHOUT UNTO GOD.

My pastor? He's a VERY LOUD guy. He yells. He shouts. He has a boisterous voice. If ever there were 2 styles that were opposites, it would be mine and his. And yet, he has been my pastor for over 20 years, and God uses both of us, just as we are.

It would be highly unnatural for my pastor to quiet down. It's not who he is, nor is it how God made him, nor is it how he is in real life. It would be equally as unnatural for me to get up and start shouting. That's not how God made me, and it's certainly not how I respond.

Um... okay. Thanks for the highly subjective, very narrow anecdote. Wow, one person that you know (and are biased in favor of) isn't false but he waves his arms and shouts... so, what? Everyone else who waves his arms and shouts is just like your pastor? You need to get out more, Pete.

You seem to be saying that it's impossible to just wave your arms out of a joy and excitement, and that the only conceivable reason someone would do that is to draw attention to themselves. IOW, you've already prejudged that if anyone waves their arms, laughs hysterically, etc., that they simply MUST be looking for attention.

You're reading what you want to read into my posts, Pete. I didn't suggest anything of the sort. I've made it clear several times that this is a fool-proof indicator of counterfeit miracles. I've only said that flashiness and showmanship tend to go along with counterfeits.

Bigotry has nothing to do with something a person has no control over;
A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry) is the corresponding state of mind.

Okay.

probinson

12th July 2008, 07:42 PM

No, I'm not talking just about style. It may be someone's style to be overhyped - which just means they make a habit of attention-seeking behavior.
As defined by who?

How do you define "attention-seeking behavior"?

No, I don't think it is. As I've said before, flashiness and showmanship are just one factor to be considered. So it's not like I'm saying that he's loud and waves his arms, so he's per se false. It can be an indication of falseness, though.

So there's no broad brush here, I'm just pointing out a probability.
To point out a real probability, one would have to do some kind of a statistical analysis. You're simply stereotyping based on your experiences, which is also what I'm doing. But there's no "probability" that when one waves their arms or is showy that a person is false.

Showy people can be false. Quiet people can be false. We seem to agree on that point. But unless you've got some hard data, you're just speculating that a "showy" miracle is more probable to be false.

Um... okay. Thanks for the highly subjective, very narrow anecdote. Wow, one person that you know (and are biased in favor of) isn't false but he waves his arms and shouts... so, what? Everyone else who waves his arms and shouts is just like your pastor? You need to get out more, Pete.
Um, no.

I was giving a simple example, not trying to state that "everyone else" who waves his arms and shouts is like my pastor.

But I suspect you already knew that.

You're reading what you want to read into my posts, Pete. I didn't suggest anything of the sort. I've made it clear several times that this is a fool-proof indicator of counterfeit miracles. I've only said that flashiness and showmanship tend to go along with counterfeits.

I assume you mean to say that this is NOT a fool-proof indicator of counterfeit miracles...

In any event, I believe you've failed to show in your posts any real "probability" that the 2 are in any way linked.

Faithful Love

12th July 2008, 07:56 PM

For probinson:

http://www.emailgoodies.faketrix.com/content/pix/office/Original-Files/stress-reduction.jpg

I'll send you some aspirin:wave:

JimfromOhio

12th July 2008, 08:33 PM

As defined by who?

How do you define "attention-seeking behavior"?

To point out a real probability, one would have to do some kind of a statistical analysis. You're simply stereotyping based on your experiences, which is also what I'm doing. But there's no "probability" that when one waves their arms or is showy that a person is false.

Showy people can be false. Quiet people can be false. We seem to agree on that point. But unless you've got some hard data, you're just speculating that a "showy" miracle is more probable to be false.

Um, no.

I was giving a simple example, not trying to state that "everyone else" who waves his arms and shouts is like my pastor.

But I suspect you already knew that.

I assume you mean to say that this is NOT a fool-proof indicator of counterfeit miracles...

In any event, I believe you've failed to show in your posts any real "probability" that the 2 are in any way linked.

Well, noisy worshipper during worship service is a person that is nothing but noise--a banging gong and a clanging cymbal. If used without love and respect, is nothing more than noise. Whenever self-centered worshippers take advantage of the worship service to call attention to themselves, it will bring cause other worshippers to lose focus in their own worship that is distracting them. :wave:

busterdog

13th July 2008, 07:44 AM

Well, noisy worshipper during worship service is a person that is nothing but noise--a banging gong and a clanging cymbal. If used without love and respect, is nothing more than noise. Whenever self-centered worshippers take advantage of the worship service to call attention to themselves, it will bring cause other worshippers to lose focus in their own worship that is distracting them. :wave:

There is a direct approach to behavior and a direct approach to matters of one's heart before the Lord. I think that the Church has confused the two and assumed that controlling behavior is controlling the heart.

For example, what happens when someone is "too quiet"?

Here's what I think about the internal dialogue of many, but not all, such a person: "Oh, LOrd, lord, lord, I am so quiet. Look at me lord. Look at my reserve. How good of me lord, right lord, right lord? I don't make noise like them do I lord? Oh no, no, no." (Personally, I lead worship and I have told my team that we will not tell people that they must sing or ever stand up. If they want to worship quietly sitting down, they should be free to do so.) My point is that the heart is not so easily judged.

What I am suggesting is that being noisy is not a measure of the heart. And further, even if you are right about when someone does betray ungodly impulses in worship, do you simply stop all of their worship?

Unfortunately, it is terribly, terribly, terribly difficult to measure anything by outward appearance. In other words, you can't even tell whether mixed in with some of the ego is also some very precious worship.

And, when you can discern a bit of ego in the outward display or the reserve, what are you going to do with the person who is self-conscious or self-centered about their worship? Tell the quiet one to be noisy or the noisy one to be quiet? If they simply exchange positions, but keep the same heart, how does that help?

Unfortunately, ego is a fact of life. The Kingdom if full of worldly impulses, period. But, there is a way to manage behavior and a different way to manage the heart.

The behaviors that need to be managed are as follows: greedy self-dealing, gossip, loose talk about sex and lasciviousness, words that are contemptuous of other Christians, bragging, and being unwilling to listen. These are addressed directly by forbidding the behavior.

What happens in the heart is not managed as easily as bad behavior. Every Church has the right to set rules. But, managing outward behavior as a way to get to the heart is a very optimistic process.

I have seen the outward displays in Church. I have seen the discipline, but I dont recall even hearing about anything that even remotely was intended to deal with the ISSUE OF THE HEART DIRECTLY. No one said, look, lets pray together twice a week for half an hour. Lets both get closer to God and see where it leads.

ImmersionX

13th July 2008, 03:15 PM

Assuming for the sake of argument that TB is "not a good guy" - by which I think you mean that he's a wolf in sheep's clothing....Then no, I don't think the "gifts" he exercises are authentic Holy Spirit gifts. His miracles would be demonic, if he is indeed a wolf.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:amen:

Elijah2

13th July 2008, 09:12 PM

Have seen many signs and wonders, and have seen people go running around like a chook with it's head chopped off, flapping their wings, and claiming they are healed, then you bump into them a few weeks later, and no healing. I guess those signs and wonders experts have every been really told.

If there is no "seeker-sensitive-feeling" hype in the meeting, just a normal church that has great praise and worship songs that are sung from their hearts and the Holy Spirit descends upon their congregation, and healings begin to happen....then what else can it be.

Myself personally, when praising and worshipping our Lord I had an incident were my right thumb would begin to shake, and I appeared to have no control on it. I assumed it was of our Lord. Then I began to wonder, and this day when it manifested again, I said, "Lord if this is not of you my Lord Jesus Christ, then I tell it to get, in Jesus' Name!" Yep, it stopped manifesting at that moment. Then one day it happened again and I challenged it again, and it just kept going. Then it happened again, and I said to our Lord, that if it's not of HIM, then I don't want it. And it never happened again.

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind

14th July 2008, 02:02 AM

However, many have warned that this or that is the counterfeit we have been warned will come in the last days. When the Pharisees accused Jesus of that, He said that the devil doesn't work against himself (my paraphrase...) so, then - what do counterfeit miracles look like really???
Rather than addressing your question on point immediately, Moriah wants to first poke at this statement a little if that bes OK? Jesus did not actually state "the devil does NOT work against himself", but rather, what He stated indicated that IF He (Jesus) cast out demons by the power of the devil, that would MEAN Satan would be divided against himself and if that bes the case, his kingdom (Satan's) could not stand. But He did not explicitly state that such could NOT be the case.

What Moriah always understood those statements to mean and to indicate, therefore, bes something like this:

either Christ bes casting out demons by Satan's power or by God's power - check.
the Pharisees accused Him of doing it by Satan's power - check.
so assume for sake of argument a moment that this bes true; if so, it would mean Satan would be divided against himself - check.
if satan bes divided against himself, though, then his kingdom cannot endure - check!
BUT if Christ actually bes doing this through GOD's power, it means the kingdom of God has come unto you - check.

Now here bes the paradox though: EVEN if He did NOT do it by God's power, it would STILL be in accord with God's will, because in EITHER case, it would mean Satan's kingdom coming to an end and the reign of God's Kingdom, no matter whose power supposedly got used to cast out the demons!!! and THAT being the case, they ought to have praised God for it from the start, and not complained against it nor tried to make it out to be something evil in origin.

Real miracles, therefore, simply cannot have an evil origin because evil bes incapable of producing them.

Now back to the central focus of your OP question. :) That being the case, the real question becomes not how do we tell the counterfeit from the true as if it required some special supernatural x-ray glasses or abnormally potent spiritual discernment to do so. No, the real question bes as plain as whats posed in the story, The Emperor's New Clothes -- that the only question we truly need ask here bes whether the miracle bes FOR REAL or not.
If you will recall, in the Emperor's New Clothes, his majesty's marvellous outfit never bes real at all, but everyone pretended it to be and ooohed and aaaahhhhed over it in one accord. It took the fresh-faced innocent honesty of a child to break the mindless collusion of the crowd which fed and perpetuated the delusion and to break the spell they'd cast over themselves. :thumbsup:

:holy: