s/o How will chr*tians recognize the "antichr*st"?

[ShirChadash]

Okay we have a thread on how to recognize the messiah, so how about a thread on what will be the ear-markers of the anti-chr*st, or anti-messiah, according to chr*tians. How will you recognize him? (I assume it will be a "him")

[Melchizedek]

Okay we have a thread on how to recognize the messiah, so how about a thread on what will be the ear-markers of the anti-chr*st, or anti-messiah, according to chr*tians. How will you recognize him? (I assume it will be a "him")

The anti-Messiah is called the Man of Lawlessness, better translated as the Man of Torahlessness. So, look for a man (even if he comes with signs and wonders), claiming to be the Messiah, who teaches the Torah has been done away with, and you will have found the anti-Messiah.

[Torah613]

Hey y'all I found the anti-messiah!

Yochanan

[ShirChadash]

Hey y'all I found the anti-messiah!

Yochanan
:D I was trying to find a way to say the same thing.




SO -- can anyone tell me what the anti-ch*st will do, that will make him recognizable as the anti-ch*st?

[anisavta]

Several of you take this as a joke. But in all seriousness - sad to say many Christians will not recognize him and fall into his tactics.

[Torah613]

Ani, we take it as a joke because the chr*stians say the antichr*st will do the same things the actual Moshiach in Torah is prophesied to do (Such as rebuilding the Beis HaMikdash).

Also, traditional chr*stian eshcatology is very biased against hte Jewish people (not quite anti-semitic). Look no further than the Left Behind series for this.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

Several of you take this as a joke. But in all seriousness - sad to say many Christians will not recognize him and fall into his tactics.

What tactics?

Do Christians believe the Anti-Chr*st is Satan, or is it
a man?

[Torah613]

another great question Chava! I look forward to the answer.

Yochanan

[ShirChadash]

many Christians will not recognize him and fall into his tactics.
sooooooooooooo how do you recognize him? That's what I made the thread for. Seriously.

[ShirChadash]

Okay we have a thread on how to recognize the messiah, so how about a thread on what will be the ear-markers of the anti-chr*st, or anti-messiah, according to chr*tians. How will you recognize him? (I assume it will be a "him")
What tactics?

Do Christians believe the Anti-Chr*st is Satan, or is it
a man?

I wonder why no one will give specific answers to these questions...

[Kris10leigh]

Hey y'all I found the anti-messiah!

Yochanan
If you mean Yeshua, and I think you do ;), that's only if one believes Yeshua did away with the Torah, which I do not.

My comments in red:
Originally Posted by ShirChadash http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47797740#post47797740) Okay we have a thread on how to recognize the messiah, so how about a thread on what will be the ear-markers of the anti-chr*st, or anti-messiah, according to chr*tians. How will you recognize him? (I assume it will be a "him")

Can't answer because I have only recently heard that anti-Christ does not mean Satan. I grew thinking it was Satan.

Originally Posted by ChavaK http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47799779#post47799779) What tactics?

Do Christians believe the Anti-Chr*st is Satan, or is it
a man?
Can't answer because I have only recently heard that anti-Christ does not mean Satan. I grew thinking it was Satan.



I wonder why no one will give specific answers to these questions... ;)

[ContraMundum]

Ani, we take it as a joke because the chr*stians say the antichr*st will do the same things the actual Moshiach in Torah is prophesied to do (Such as rebuilding the Beis HaMikdash).

Also, traditional chr*stian eshcatology is very biased against hte Jewish people (not quite anti-semitic). Look no further than the Left Behind series for this.

Yochanan

This is hyperbole, Yochanan.

The Left Behind series is not traditional Christian eschatology. Not even close. You must be joking, surely.

The Left Behind series is not even remotely authoratative, nor will their ficticious stories ever stand the test of good, traditional theology. Most serious scripture scholars laugh at them and even write against them. They will pass as do all Americanised religious fads. Don't taint Orthodox Christianity on the basis of a fictional book series. That's apples and oranges.

As for what the Anti-Christ will do- only time will tell how prophecy pans out. When I have sat under the good teaching of good Orthodox Rabbis (who have no anti-Christian agenda or interest in anything other than teaching their people), they will be the first to tell you that prophetic events are always clearer after the event. If you don't believe me- you will even hear it from the anti-missionary ones that I'm sure most of the RJs here are very familiar with.

You can't honesty say that Christianity teaches that the AntiChrist will do everything the RJs think the "real" Messiah will do, unless of course you have no idea about orthodox Christianity. In fact, in history, there have been Christians who taught that the Antichrist would be the final Pope! Others think there are many AntiChrists- Hitler being the most obvious one: a cyclical, repetitious manifestation of the unending war between God's people and their enemies.

As for anti-semitism in tradition Christian eschatology- to be frank, in orthodox, traditional Christian eschatology Judaism and Jews hardly get a mention. It's not an issue. There is very little, if any mention of the point in the majority of works on the subject. It's more concerned about persecution of Christians from the world. As Jews, in traditional Christian eschatology, we can't regard ourselves as the centre of all attention, because it's just not true.

Perhaps it needs to be stressed that modern protestant and pentecostal American forms of Christianity do not speak for traditional orthodox Christianity of the last two millenia.

I hope this helps dispell further myths about the Church's beliefs.

[ContraMundum]

W
Do Christians believe the Anti-Chr*st is Satan, or is it
a man?

a) Man or b) men over time or c) men over time culminating in one man. All agree that he wil be under the influence of Satan. A minority opinion say that he is a picture of the fallen world and its system.

[Steve Petersen]

Anyway, why are you in a Messianic Fourm asking what 'Christians' will say. Why not go over to traditional Christian forums and ask them?

[Kris10leigh]

Anyway, why are you in a Messianic Fourm asking what 'Christians' will say. Why not go over to traditional Christian forums and ask them?
Because we're more fun to talk to? ^_^ :P

[ContraMundum]

Anyway, why are you in a Messianic Fourm asking what 'Christians' will say. Why not go over to traditional Christian forums and ask them?

They like a soft target. They wouldn't get away so lightly with their critical comments and snipings over in a proper Christian forum. Too chicken!

[Torah613]

no its more like we remember our last dealings wtith the proper chr*stians. We call it the pogroms. Nor do we really care what "traditional chr*stians" think. We don't deal with them in real life or online.

So the next time you want to insult Jews contra, why don't you make it at least somewhat true.

Yochanan

[Steve Petersen]

no its more like we remember our last dealings wtith the proper chr*stians. We call it the pogroms. Nor do we really care what "traditional chr*stians" think. We don't deal with them in real life or online.

So the next time you want to insult Jews contra, why don't you make it at least somewhat true.

Yochanan

Apparently its OK to insult Christians though.

I am really tired of the slurs against Christians being made by the Jews and their converts here. Are you ignorant of the Christians who have saved Jewish lives? The Danes evacuated the Jews from Denmark in WWII to save them from the Nazis. The ten Boom family hid Jews from Nazis in Holland. For their efforts they were rounded up and sent to the death camps as well. Two of the three died there. Karol Wojtyla, a polish priest, later Pope John Paul II, refused to convert a Jewish child who was being protected from the Nazis by a Polish Catholic family. He also helped re-unite Jewish families after the war.

Thousands of Christians donate money to the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, a Jewish charity that provides for destitute Jews in Israel.

My family donates to Chabad.

You continue to paint Christians as Jew haters, just waiting for the opportunity to kill them. This is inflammatory and false and in no way represents ANY official Christian creed, doctrine or decree.

[Torah613]

yes there are exceptions, but for two thousand years chr*stianity has generally meant persecution against the Jewish people. Muslims have never been friends to Jews, but there is a reason that the brightest lights of Jewish life have been in traditionally muslim lands (moorish spain, the Rambam, Rashi, etc.)

Yochanan

[zaksmummy]

I shocked at you Torah - I thought you were above this nonsense.

Most of the people here, are people who want to have fellowship with Jewish people, yes, have disagreements, it would be a boring world without those, but please, there is no need to resort to these nasty comments. What can we do, we cant erase 2 thousand years of hatred, but we are here to try to redress the balance a bit and I for one feel most of the time I'm getting it thrown back in my face.

We can ask for forgiveness but would we be forgiven? Or would you prefer to hold on to the pain and it turn into bitterness?

As Yoda says in Star Wars - that path leads to the dark side...

[zaksmummy]

Anyway, back to the question,

As someone has already said, hindsight is a wonderful thing, mix that in with a bit of picture language and someone a long time ago watching future events, its a lot to take in, most people (myself included) find it difficult to make sense of.

However, I dont know that I will recognise the anti-christ, so I pray that HaShem will keep me close to him and dont worry about it. I figure that if I am close to HaShem, and living a life of righteousness, it will become apparent at the time.

As for who the anitchrist is, who knows. It says that many will be decieved, and I guess that it the point of deception to ensure that the truth isnt revealed.

[zaksmummy]

There is a thread in the spirit filled forum at the moment on who is the antichrist if you want to go look at what other people think.

Sorry dont know how to do links.

[ContraMundum]

no its more like we remember our last dealings wtith the proper chr*stians. We call it the pogroms.

You were not there at the pograms, Yochanan. Let's not get too carried away. Don't try to use some incident in history to avoid questions. It's a bit silly to call unrepentant sinners "proper Christians", don't you think? If you want to recall every tragedy in history and try to make it to your theological advantage I can guarantee you won't get far in faith or learning. Before long, people will start blaming you for things Jews have done wrong. What would be your defence to that? "They weren't following Torah".

Nor do we really care what "traditional chr*stians" think. We don't deal with them in real life or online.You're dealing with one now, and you've been dealing with this one for two years. I don't believe I had anything to do with the pograms either. But, I do give to Israeli charities and support every Jewish buisness I can think of- or does what some Russians did to my ancestors too somehow make me"wrong"? In fact, I've probably experienced more anti-semitism in real life than many, if not most, here have and I can guarantee you that none of it came from born-again Christians.

So the next time you want to insult Jews contra, why don't you make it at least somewhat true.
Questions are not insults.

[ContraMundum]

yes there are exceptions, but for two thousand years chr*stianity has generally meant persecution against the Jewish people. Muslims have never been friends to Jews, but there is a reason that the brightest lights of Jewish life have been in traditionally muslim lands (moorish spain, the Rambam, Rashi, etc.)

Yochanan

Well, I hate to be the clarion call here, but there's a lot you need to sort through. I personally know you are not speaking as yourself here. You are a gentle spirit my friend, and you know deep down that no one here supports the idea of a pogram or anything or the sort, and although we disagree we all know we support each other and the Gentiles here genuinely love the Jews.

Being hostile to people because of their race or religion is utterly un-Jewish. Surely you already know that well.

It is completely at odds as an attitude with current Jewish leadership and their wisdom. All peoples have hurt others. The Jews killed Christians early on, and in our own day persecute and marginalise Christians in Israel. Do I think Jews are to blame, or just sinful politics and people's insanity? I think it's just sinful politics, sinners doing what sinners do best: sin. I don't blame the Jews because that's stupid- I am Jewish and I was raised with better values than that, surely you were too! In fact, most Jewish people I know and have known do not support aggression towards others based on what happened in history. We are forgiving people! It we don't forgive and move on it says more about the person than the one they are imputing blame to.

Now about Jews propering better under Islam etc...there are some great books about Jewish civilization in Europe under Christian Kings that would probably set the record straight- they were influential in society to be sure, esp in Christian lands, even to this day. Right now Jews are doing more good for the planet than ever before in history, I would personally argue. In fact, the West and the US especially are basically utopias for Jewish people. We prosper, learn and teach in those countries without suffering for our ethnicity and certainly less than other minorities, in fact, we thrive and contribute way above our weight in numbers.

An atheist who I'm no fan of once stumbled on something profound: "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."

[Torah613]

I shocked at you Torah - I thought you were above this nonsense.

Most of the people here, are people who want to have fellowship with Jewish people, yes, have disagreements, it would be a boring world without those, but please, there is no need to resort to these nasty comments. What can we do, we cant erase 2 thousand years of hatred, but we are here to try to redress the balance a bit and I for one feel most of the time I'm getting it thrown back in my face.

We can ask for forgiveness but would we be forgiven? Or would you prefer to hold on to the pain and it turn into bitterness?

As Yoda says in Star Wars - that path leads to the dark side...

First of all, I know that currently most chr*stians are very philosemitic. However you should see the attacks that were made against us no sonner than the Messianic Way opened up. Lets just say there's a reason only two rabbinic Jews continue to post anywhere on this forum.

Now I'm not saying anyone here is to blame for the inquisition etc., neither am I gunna forget it. You see, we have long memories. For us, the SI is still current events. In fact, in terms of percentage of total world population, we're still trying to recover and if every Jew in the world became a black hat today and had 10 children we'd be trying to recover for the next 200 years or so. So we're wary. Thats just how it is.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

Well, I hate to be the clarion call here, but there's a lot you need to sort through. I personally know you are not speaking as yourself here. You are a gentle spirit my friend, and you know deep down that no one here supports the idea of a pogram or anything or the sort, and although we disagree we all know we support each other and the Gentiles here genuinely love the Jews.

Being hostile to people because of their race or religion is utterly un-Jewish. Surely you already know that well.

It is completely at odds as an attitude with current Jewish leadership and their wisdom. All peoples have hurt others. The Jews killed Christians early on, and in our own day persecute and marginalise Christians in Israel. Do I think Jews are to blame, or just sinful politics and people's insanity? I think it's just sinful politics, sinners doing what sinners do best: sin. I don't blame the Jews because that's stupid- I am Jewish and I was raised with better values than that, surely you were too! In fact, most Jewish people I know and have known do not support aggression towards others based on what happened in history. We are forgiving people! It we don't forgive and move on it says more about the person than the one they are imputing blame to.

Now about Jews propering better under Islam etc...there are some great books about Jewish civilization in Europe under Christian Kings that would probably set the record straight- they were influential in society to be sure, esp in Christian lands, even to this day. Right now Jews are doing more good for the planet than ever before in history, I would personally argue. In fact, the West and the US especially are basically utopias for Jewish people. We prosper, learn and teach in those countries without suffering for our ethnicity and certainly less than other minorities, in fact, we thrive and contribute way above our weight in numbers.

An atheist who I'm no fan of once stumbled on something profound: "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."

you raise some good points.

Yochanan

[ContraMundum]

For us, the SI is still current events. In fact, in terms of percentage of total world population, we're still trying to recover and if every Jew in the world became a black hat today and had 10 children we'd be trying to recover for the next 200 years or so. So we're wary. Thats just how it is.

Yochanan

I agree....being wary is part of our makeup. I think we need to retain memories but not relive them or let them dominate our psyche.

[Torah613]

and who's saying we are? If we simply follow the light of hte of the Besht and of Rebbe Nachman, not to mention the manyother Tzadikim, we have enough to reject chr*stianity.

Yochanan

[Steve Petersen]

Is it possible to reject Christianity without marginalizing its adherents?

[zaksmummy]

First of all, I know that currently most chr*stians are very philosemitic. However you should see the attacks that were made against us no sonner than the Messianic Way opened up. Lets just say there's a reason only two rabbinic Jews continue to post anywhere on this forum.

Now I'm not saying anyone here is to blame for the inquisition etc., neither am I gunna forget it. You see, we have long memories. For us, the SI is still current events. In fact, in terms of percentage of total world population, we're still trying to recover and if every Jew in the world became a black hat today and had 10 children we'd be trying to recover for the next 200 years or so. So we're wary. Thats just how it is.

Yochanan

My Mum always says that Gentiles have history, Jews have memory, so I can see where you are coming from.

Im truly sorry that people came to this Forum to attack you and other Jews, shame on them, and Im glad you are still here and participating, I have a lot of respect for you, just dont like to see you stooping to their level:)

[Torah613]

yeah, as of right now I'm the only rabbinic Jew participating here actively. so it looks Like I'll be out the door in a jiffy too.

Yochanan

[Steve Petersen]

You'll be back.

[visionary]

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


There are two things that the great imitator can not do... be Holy [Torah perfect] and come in the flesh.

[Torah613]

yeah, as of right now I'm the only rabbinic Jew participating here actively. so it looks Like I'll be out the door in a jiffy too.

Yochanan

Looks like I misspoke. Kivi is still here. Looks like soon he will be all on his lonesome though.

Kivi, don't forget to come over for some tea and cookies. We have Cholov Yisrial creamer.

Yochanan

[kivi]

They like a soft target. They wouldn't get away so lightly with their critical comments and snipings over in a proper Christian forum. Too chicken!

kivi says: I am ashamed for you, CM. I expect better from you, especially as I have come to know you better. CF has ghettoized the Jews. UT is the only place I know in CF where the system is not structurally set up to favor Christians as against Jews and other non-Christians. This is the ONLY place I know where, just by stating standard Jewish stuff>beliefs and pratices, we will not get RVed, deleted and banned. In any place else in CF, by definition, we are structurally discriminated against. Now, CF is a Christian forum, it can do anything it wants to do. As non-Chirstians, how are we we to object? It isn't our property. But, as long as members in CF talk about us in ways that are not true, we will try to find ways to bring you and the rest of CF the truth about Judaism. And, so we live in the cracks and the behind the floorboards. What else is new?:)

[Torah613]

kivi says: I am ashamed for you, CM. I expect better from you, especially as I have come to know you better. CF has ghettoized the Jews. UT is the only place I know in CF where the system is not structurally set up to favor Christians as against Jews and other non-Christians. This is the ONLY place I know where, just by stating standard Jewish stuff>beliefs and pratices, we will not get RVed, deleted and banned. In any place else in CF, by definition, we are structurally discriminated against. Now, CF is a Christian forum, it can do anything it wants to do. As non-Chirstians, how are we we to object? It isn't our property. But, as long as members in CF talk about us in ways that are not true, we will try to find ways to bring you and the rest of CF the truth about Judaism. And, so we live in the cracks and the behind the floorboards. What else is new?:)

quoted for truth

Yochanan

[精神的な名誉]

Correct me if im wrong, but Judaism believes that the Messiah has not come yet right? Is there also an apocalypse in Judaism or is the arrival of the Messiah the final...event?

Thanks!

[Torah613]

of course not. The Moshiach will reign, rebuild the Beis Ha-Mikdash (temple), gather allt he Jewish people back to Israel, show the light of HaShem to the gentiles, and begin ushering in Olam Habah.

Yochanan

[ContraMundum]

kCF has ghettoized the Jews.

That's easily the most paranoid thing I've read in years. I suppose the Baptists have been ghettoized too. After all, they have a forum as well. The fundies especially. They aren't safe to post in the Liberal forum and about half of the other forums. Man, talk about persecuted for their beliefs! CF is a cruel dictatorial machine that marginalizes people and forces them against their will into ethereal ghettos. Is that what you are saying brother?

UT is the only place I know in CF where the system is not structurally set up to favor Christians as against Jews and other non-Christians. This is the ONLY place I know where, just by stating standard Jewish stuff>beliefs and pratices, we will not get RVed, deleted and banned. In any place else in CF, by definition, we are structurally discriminated against. Now, CF is a Christian forum, it can do anything it wants to do. As non-Chirstians, how are we we to object? It isn't our property. But, as long as members in CF talk about us in ways that are not true, we will try to find ways to bring you and the rest of CF the truth about Judaism. And, so we live in the cracks and the behind the floorboards. What else is new?:)

The day this forum represents just "stating standard Jewish stuff" it will be a pleasant place. At present, far too much emphasis coming from the RJs is about how "wrong" Christianity is. Just read carefully and you'll see what I mean. It's one thing to say "Judaism teaches this" and altogether another thing to post comments laced with insinuations about how dumb and wrong the Christians are and why you need to tell them so.

Anyway, in case you hadn't noticed, everyone has a space on CF that by your definition could be called a ghetto.

My point was, and remains this: if you feel so compelled to correct every comment about Judaism from the Christian point of view, why don't you go to a forum here where the posters actually believe in and know their stuff and correct them? Go over to OBOB, TAW, the Fundie or the Reformed forums and tell them about how Jews reject Jesus and why when they make silly comments about the Jews. Go to the Lutheran forum and inform them that Luther was an anti-semite and that they follow his teachings and are therefore responsible for Nazism. Why don't you guys do that? Some have done it here. My deduction: this place is a soft target. The posters are often quite confused and already on the fringes. Anywhere else you'll get buried in answers that will be direct and probably too challenging. Do you at least see my reasoning and how I came to this conclusion?

[kivi]

Apparently its OK to insult Christians though.

I am really tired of the slurs against Christians being made by the Jews and their converts here. Are you ignorant of the Christians who have saved Jewish lives? The Danes evacuated the Jews from Denmark in WWII to save them from the Nazis. The ten Boom family hid Jews from Nazis in Holland. For their efforts they were rounded up and sent to the death camps as well. Two of the three died there. Karol Wojtyla, a polish priest, later Pope John Paul II, refused to convert a Jewish child who was being protected from the Nazis by a Polish Catholic family. He also helped re-unite Jewish families after the war.

Thousands of Christians donate money to the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, a Jewish charity that provides for destitute Jews in Israel.

My family donates to Chabad.

You continue to paint Christians as Jew haters, just waiting for the opportunity to kill them. This is inflammatory and false and in no way represents ANY official Christian creed, doctrine or decree.

kivi says: In all seriousness, none of us here are faulting individual Christans, as such. Many Jews were saved by the unselfish actions of Christians during WWII. The actions of the Danes will go down in history as the one time the governments and peoples of a nation stood up to evil and defeated it. Unfortunately, the few that were saved pale in comparison to the millions that were murdered OR were allowed to be murdered by Christians during the same period of time. And the actions of the Danes was sadly not mimiced by any other nation or peoples in all of Europe [Nazi Terror: The Gestapo, Jews and Ordinary Germans, Erica A. Johnson, Basic Books/Pereus Books Group, 1999].

For example, the actions of Wojtyla went against the official policy of the Catholic Church during and after WWII. During the Jewish Warsaw Ghetto uprising, the Polish Underground, which was totally Catholic in membership, purposely, as a matter of policy, refused to support, give arms or provide fighters to the Jews. In comparing the actions of Wojtyla and the Polish Underground, we Jews see the cultural bias of anti semitism. And we see it, over and over again, no matter where we look, throughout Christendom, throughout time and place, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, mainstream, evanglic, fundamentalist.

The point that we are all making is that the institutions and organizations of Christianity is set up in such a way as to consistantly support anti semitic, Jew hating beliefs and actions on the part of its individual members and organizations that take from Christain theology and history various aspects of their programs. In effect, it is often the Jewish point of view that non-anti semitic beliefs and actions of the individual members of Chirstianity occur because the individual are going against their own religious teachings and practices.

Now, you may not like that. I can understand. But were are your efforts to fight against it in Chirstianity. When the Left Behind series was getting all the attention in the press, where were the ads from the mainstream or evangelic Christian communities denouncing it? Since we can not go into the Christians sub-forums of CF to defend ourselves from the falsehoods told about us, do you do it for us? Where is the Jewish/Christian organizations to fight the Missionaries. Do you stand up to J4J?

Finally, how long will it take us, as Jews, to forget what Christendom has done to us over the millienium? Problably never. That is something that is wise not to forget. Forgive? I don't know. For me, you give me about 2 millienium of active Christian efforts against anti semitism and I'll reconsider. But the amends that Christainity will have to do are not just a window-dressing effort, but a total re-organization to its most fundamental beliefs and actions.

[Torah613]

That's easily the most paranoid thing I've read in years. I suppose the Baptists have been ghettoized too. After all, they have a forum as well. The fundies especially. They aren't safe to post in the Liberal forum and about half of the other forums. Man, talk about persecuted for their beliefs! CF is a cruel dictatorial machine that marginalizes people and forces them against their will into ethereal ghettos. Is that what you are saying brother?



The day this forum represents just "stating standard Jewish stuff" it will be a pleasant place. At present, far too much emphasis coming from the RJs is about how "wrong" Christianity is. Just read carefully and you'll see what I mean. It's one thing to say "Judaism teaches this" and altogether another thing to post comments laced with insinuations about how dumb and wrong the Christians are and why you need to tell them so.

Anyway, in case you hadn't noticed, everyone has a space on CF that by your definition could be called a ghetto.

My point was, and remains this: if you feel so compelled to correct every comment about Judaism from the Christian point of view, why don't you go to a forum here where the posters actually believe in and know their stuff and correct them? Go over to OBOB, TAW, the Fundie or the Reformed forums and tell them about how Jews reject Jesus and why when they make silly comments about the Jews. Go to the Lutheran forum and inform them that Luther was an anti-semite and that they follow his teachings and are therefore responsible for Nazism. Why don't you guys do that? Some have done it here. My deduction: this place is a soft target. The posters are often quite confused and already on the fringes. Anywhere else you'll get buried in answers that will be direct and probably too challenging. Do you at least see my reasoning and how I came to this conclusion?

TAW? you mean the church of John Chrysostom? you must be joking right? I remember being particpators in at least some of the forums you mentioned. You couldn't pay me enough money to ask such a question in there.

Yochanan

[kivi]

Well, I hate to be the clarion call here, but there's a lot you need to sort through. I personally know you are not speaking as yourself here. You are a gentle spirit my friend, and you know deep down that no one here supports the idea of a pogram or anything or the sort, and although we disagree we all know we support each other and the Gentiles here genuinely love the Jews.

Being hostile to people because of their race or religion is utterly un-Jewish. Surely you already know that well.

It is completely at odds as an attitude with current Jewish leadership and their wisdom. All peoples have hurt others. The Jews killed Christians early on, and in our own day persecute and marginalise Christians in Israel.
kivi says: Jews did not kill Christains. That is not true. As for the invasion of missionaries. It is always right to resist the missionaries who would destroy Judaism. It is a matter of self perservation on the part of every Jew at any time and any where to fight the missionaries in any way possible. And now that the missionaries have launched a major conversion campaign directed especially at the Jews in Israel, that effort to protect us must be at the same level as our efforts to protect us from the terrorists. The terroist slip over the the wall, the missionaries land at the airport, but their purpses are the same. A Jew free world. Never again.



Do I think Jews are to blame, or just sinful politics and people's insanity? I think it's just sinful politics, sinners doing what sinners do best: sin. I don't blame the Jews because that's stupid- I am Jewish and I was raised with better values than that, surely you were too! In fact, most Jewish people I know and have known do not support aggression towards others based on what happened in history. We are forgiving people! It we don't forgive and move on it says more about the person than the one they are imputing blame to.

Now about Jews propering better under Islam etc...there are some great books
kivi says: Got some names and titles????


about Jewish civilization in Europe under Christian Kings that would probably set the record straight- they were influential in society to be sure, esp in Christian lands, even to this day. Right now Jews are doing more good for the planet than ever before in history, I would personally argue. In fact, the West and the US especially are basically utopias for Jewish people. We prosper, learn and teach in those countries without suffering for our ethnicity and certainly less than other minorities, in fact, we thrive and contribute way above our weight in numbers.
kivi says: To think that we do not pay a high price for such luxuries is to be ignorant of the reality of Jewish demographics

An atheist who I'm no fan of once stumbled on something profound: "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."
kivi says: Great quote. I would never want to become like the missionaries and terrorist we fight. Thank you for giving a great way to remember that. Do you have the quoter's name? Golda Meir once said: "I can forgive the Arabs for killings Jewish children, but I don't now if I can forgive them for making us kill Arab children."

[kivi]

Is it possible to reject Christianity without marginalizing its adherents?

kivi says: You guys stop the missionaries. As long as Christianity actively engages in efforts to create a Jew free world, how can we not 'marginalize'?

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: In all seriousness, none of us here are faulting individual Christans, as such. Many Jews were saved by the unselfish actions of Christians during WWII. The actions of the Danes will go down in history as the one time the governments and peoples of a nation stood up to evil and defeated it. Unfortunately, the few that were saved pale in comparison to the millions that were murdered OR were allowed to be murdered by Christians during the same period of time. And the actions of the Danes was sadly not mimiced by any other nation or peoples in all of Europe [Nazi Terror: The Gestapo, Jews and Ordinary Germans, Erica A. Johnson, Basic Books/Pereus Books Group, 1999].

OK...so if a society is nominally Christian then Christianity is responisble for letting Hitler kill the Jews, right?

Then by such imputation, Christians liberated and saved the Jews, by virtue of the war against Hitler and supporting the foundaiton of the Jewish State. Therefore, by your own scales and balances, Christianity saved the Jews.

Let's be consistant.

For example, the actions of Wojtyla went against the official policy of the Catholic Church during and after WWII.

Oh please, do inform us all about the official policy of the Catholic Church during WWII. What policy? What's the name of the document and who did the imprimatur for it?

In comparing the actions of Wojtyla and the Polish Underground, we Jews see the cultural bias of anti semitism. And we see it, over and over again, no matter where we look, throughout Christendom, throughout time and place, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, mainstream, evanglic, fundamentalist.

Cancel that. Speak for yourself. Not all Jews are that scared of Gentiles. You, as a convert, living in a Western country complete with a computer, are enjoying the fruits of a Christianized society. You live, today, in a Christianized Utopia for Jews where no one can persecute you without government retribution. All this kvetching about being persecuted is complete bollucks. If it wasn't for the Christian societies promoting, even vicariously, Judaic societal principles and forming democratic countries with freedom of religion and with laws ultimately based on the Torah we'd still be living under the pagans or worse.

The point that we are all making is that the institutions and organizations of Christianity is set up in such a way as to consistantly support anti semitic, Jew hating beliefs and actions on the part of its individual members and organizations that take from Christain theology and history various aspects of their programs. In effect, it is often the Jewish point of view that non-anti semitic beliefs and actions of the individual members of Chirstianity occur because the individual are going against their own religious teachings and practices.

That, my friend, is completely devilish. Thatis easily the most insane statement I've ever read in my life. Christian institutions are anti-semitic, promoting Jew hating beliefs? Which ones? The Salvation Army? World Vision? The Red Cross? Can you even name ONE Christian insitution of repute that has a single "Jew hating" dogma?

Man, get out the cultic mindset. Open the gate and step out of the death camp- the Christian armies liberated you already.

When the Left Behind series was getting all the attention in the press, where were the ads from the mainstream or evangelic Christian communities denouncing it?

They were everywhere. (they still are). If you were engaged in the dialectic going on, you would have seen that.
Since we can not go into the Christians sub-forums of CF to defend ourselves from the falsehoods told about us, do you do it for us?

ALL THE TIME.

Where is the Jewish/Christian organizations to fight the Missionaries. Do you stand up to J4J?

I support the missionaries, too all peoples. Nothing you can do about that. It's a missionary religion. I think the whole world needs salvation from sin. I don't single out my own relatives, but I also don't think I will pass them by.

Finally, how long will it take us, as Jews, to forget what Christendom has done to us over the millienium? Problably never.

Some people use the history of persecution as a tool for emotional security. If they can be "special" then maybe people will love them more. Others choose to remember, but not dwell on it, because we already know we are special. We won't let it happen again, because we have empowered ourselves. We don't need to rely on tragic histories that constantly keep others distant from us, and worse, keep us from approaching them. We see people as our chance to fulfill a mitzvah, not a chance to get their sympathy and make them feel responsible for something they themselves think is sinful.

That is something that is wise not to forget. Forgive? I don't know. For me, you give me about 2 millienium of active Christian efforts against anti semitism and I'll reconsider. But the amends that Christainity will have to do are not just a window-dressing effort, but a total re-organization to its most fundamental beliefs and actions.

For some Jews, Christians would have to be their slaves and bake their dinners for two millenia before they would choose to forgive and move on. To them, I say repent. The Christians have been helping us in ways most of us refuse to see because it makes our efforts to help others of different faiths look quite lazy.

A good Jew loves his Christian neighbour, and doesn;t blame him for the holocaust. That's the "Torah truth" brother.

[Torah613]

Kivi, frankly I'd take a thousand terrorists to one missionary any day of the week. The terrorists want to destroy our bodies, the missionaries our neshamaot (and in a few documented recent cases in isreal our bodies as well).

Yochanan

[kivi]

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


There are two things that the great imitator can not do... be Holy [Torah perfect] and come in the flesh.

kivi says: So, according to the quotes you give, especially John 4:2, Jews who do not confess Jesus Christ are of the 'spirit of the antichrist'. Is that correct?

[Nooj]

Woa-oh. I urge people to take a step back and re-read the content of the last couple of posts. They don't sound pretty at all.

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: Jews did not kill Christains. That is not true.

Yes, we did. We even orchestrated it in some parts of the world, using the secular government as our helper.

As for the invasion of missionaries. It is always right to resist the missionaries who would destroy Judaism. It is a matter of self perservation on the part of every Jew at any time and any where to fight the missionaries in any way possible. And now that the missionaries have launched a major conversion campaign directed especially at the Jews in Israel, that effort to protect us must be at the same level as our efforts to protect us from the terrorists. The terroist slip over the the wall, the missionaries land at the airport, but their purpses are the same. A Jew free world. Never again.

That world is sad and scared.

kivi says: Got some names and titles????

What, you don't have a Jewish book store near you? Gosh...I wouldn't know where to start. Herald of Destiny by Wein? Eisenstadt's "Jewish Civilsation". There's an excellent book also on the topic of influential Jewish societies in Europe during the MIddle Ages- a recent book...can't remember it...do a Google.


kivi says: To think that we do not pay a high price for such luxuries is to be ignorant of the reality of Jewish demographics

For a response to cynicism about Jewish accomplishments, see Silbiger's "The Jewish Phenomenon"


kivi says: Great quote. I would never want to become like the missionaries and terrorist we fight. Thank you for giving a great way to remember that. Do you have the quoter's name? Golda Meir once said: "I can forgive the Arabs for killings Jewish children, but I don't now if I can forgive them for making us kill Arab children."

It was Neitzche.

By the way, you being here and giving apology for Judaism is just being a missionary by another name. Same reasonings by my book.

[visionary]

In answer to the question... antichrist.. There are two things that the great imitator can not do... be Holy [Torah perfect] and come in the flesh.

As far as the spirit of the antichrist... there are many aspects... blindness of the part of the Jews is something God did.. so therefore can not be part of the spirit of the antichrist.

[kivi]

kivi says: I would love to go. How about the Lutheran site? Care to come with me and introduce me? You're a moderator. How do I do this? I'll post my statements and you make use that they meet the forum requirements? I'll send my statements to you first, and you'll vet them? How about I just post old ML own statements and see what happens? I'll want to bring other friends, can't do it all myself, how about them? You tell u how to do it and we'll be there with bells on our shoes and rings on our fingers.

That's easily the most paranoid thing I've read in years. I suppose the Baptists have been ghettoized too. After all, they have a forum as well. The fundies especially. They aren't safe to post in the Liberal forum and about half of the other forums. Man, talk about persecuted for their beliefs! CF is a cruel dictatorial machine that marginalizes people and forces them against their will into ethereal ghettos. Is that what you are saying brother?



The day this forum represents just "stating standard Jewish stuff" it will be a pleasant place. At present, far too much emphasis coming from the RJs is about how "wrong" Christianity is. Just read carefully and you'll see what I mean. It's one thing to say "Judaism teaches this" and altogether another thing to post comments laced with insinuations about how dumb and wrong the Christians are and why you need to tell them so.

Anyway, in case you hadn't noticed, everyone has a space on CF that by your definition could be called a ghetto.

My point was, and remains this: if you feel so compelled to correct every comment about Judaism from the Christian point of view, why don't you go to a forum here where the posters actually believe in and know their stuff and correct them? Go over to OBOB, TAW, the Fundie or the Reformed forums and tell them about how Jews reject Jesus and why when they make silly comments about the Jews. Go to the Lutheran forum and inform them that Luther was an anti-semite and that they follow his teachings and are therefore responsible for Nazism. Why don't you guys do that? Some have done it here. My deduction: this place is a soft target. The posters are often quite confused and already on the fringes. Anywhere else you'll get buried in answers that will be direct and probably too challenging. Do you at least see my reasoning and how I came to this conclusion?

[ContraMundum]

Woa-oh. I urge people to take a step back and re-read the content of the last couple of posts. They don't sound pretty at all.
I love kivi....he loves me. No kidding. We just want to be frank about things. It might sound ugly, but it isn't.

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: I would love to go. How about the Lutheran site? Care to come with me and introduce me? You're a moderator. How do I do this? I'll post my statements and you make use that they meet the forum requirements? I'll send my statements to you first, and you'll vet them? How about I just post old ML own statements and see what happens? I'll want to bring other friends, can't do it all myself, how about them? You tell u how to do it and we'll be there with bells on our shoes and rings on our fingers.

Don't let me stop you! I can't make them like you or accept your words though. I will be an interested observer.

What will you say to them?

[Torah613]

Nooj--thats just how Jews talk. They argue like dogs and then go out for some coffee and rugelach. Unfortunately, one rav accepts the hechster while anotehr does not and the arguing starts over again.

there once was a jewish man stranded on an island. When rescuers found him years later he had built two synagogues. When they saw this they asked him "so, nu, for what do you need two synagogues?" He replied "one is the one I daven in, the other I wouldn't set foot in to save my lfe."

Yochanan

[ContraMundum]

Nooj--thats just how Jews talk. They argue like dogs and then go out for some coffee and rugelach. Unfortunately, one rav accepts the hechster while anotehr does not and the arguing starts over again.

there once was a jewish man stranded on an island. When rescuers found him years later he had built two synagogues. When they saw this they asked him "so, nu, for what do you need two synagogues?" He replied "one is the one I daven in, the other I wouldn't set foot in to save my lfe."

Yochanan

LOL! An old classic yet so true! :thumbsup::thumbsup::D

[visionary]

How will chr*tians recognize the "antichr*st"?

The Antichrist is a title for one who is the great opposer to Torah, to the truth, to worship of God, who hates, who has a lot of other characteristics that are evil.

His qualities and charcteristic are

- he is charismatic
- he is able to have the largest following this world has ever seen
- he is able get nations to obey him
- he is able to get people to war against God and His people
- he is able to get all religions to come under his umbrella
- he gets everyone, well almost everyone, to believe the millinium of rest has arrived.
- he has great powers, to be able to have lightening strike where he wills
- he can do all things that Yeshua did when He walked the earth.
- he is incredibly smart
- he is conceited
- he is proud, haughty style

[kivi]

OK...so if a society is nominally Christian then Christianity is responisble for letting Hitler kill the Jews, right?

Then by such imputation, Christians liberated and saved the Jews, by virtue of the war against Hitler and supporting the foundaiton of the Jewish State. Therefore, by your own scales and balances, Christianity saved the Jews.

Let's be consistant.

kivi says: Oh, I think that the Christian coalition [that's funny>US, England, USSR] that 'saved' the Jews did so as a unsought for side 'benefit' in trying to save its own tush. That is nice for us. The up-side of 'unforseen consequences'.:cool: Of course, the moral, political and military actions and intentions of all the participants in WWII is a lot more than just a post at CF can look at. Care to set up a seperate thread? I think that WWII is the very best laboratory for the investigation of Christian anti semitism and the Jews that is available to us. Love to run it down with you.:clap:



Oh please, do inform us all about the official policy of the Catholic Church during WWII. What policy? What's the name of the document and who did the imprimatur for it?
kivi says: Oh, please B'er CM, don't thow me into the brier bush.

"In 2005, the Italian daily, Corriere della Sera, discovered a letter dated November 20, 1946, showing that Pope Pius XII ordered Jewish babies baptized by Catholics during the Holocaust (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/holo.html) not to be returned to their parents. Some scholars said the disclosure was not new and that the Pope's behavior was not remarkable. The more important story, according to Rabbi David Rosen, international director of interreligious affairs for the American Jewish Committee, was that one of the recipients of the letter, Angelo Roncalli, the papal representative in Paris, ignored the papal directive.(32) (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html#N_32_)"

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html




Cancel that. Speak for yourself. Not all Jews are that scared of Gentiles. You, as a convert, living in a Western country complete with a computer, are enjoying the fruits of a Christianized society. You live, today, in a Christianized Utopia for Jews where no one can persecute you without government retribution. All this kvetching about being persecuted is complete bollucks. If it wasn't for the Christian societies promoting, even vicariously, Judaic societal principles and forming democratic countries with freedom of religion and with laws ultimately based on the Torah we'd still be living under the pagans or worse.
kivi says:Oh, I don't think that being a canary is not a moral vocation from G-d. Its what we signed up for. And somebody has to do it. But I will not say that being a canary is an easy job. Galus is Galus.



That, my friend, is completely devilish.
kivi says: :thumbsup:

That is easily the most insane statement I've ever read in my life. Christian institutions are anti-semitic, promoting Jew hating beliefs? Which ones? The Salvation Army? World Vision? The Red Cross? Can you even name ONE Christian insitution of repute that has a single "Jew hating" dogma?
kivi says: Any Christian organization that supports any missionary activity directed at Jews. How about any Christian organization that funds J4J? How about any Christian organziation that does not actively fight against the quotation from John that says that anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ is of the spirit of the antichrist.
2 John 1 (King James Version):
"7For many are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. "


Man, get out the cultic mindset. Open the gate and step out of the death camp- the Christian armies liberated you already.



They were everywhere. (they still are). If you were engaged in the dialectic going on, you would have seen that.


ALL THE TIME.



I support the missionaries, too all peoples. Nothing you can do about that. It's a missionary religion. I think the whole world needs salvation from sin. I don't single out my own relatives, but I also don't think I will pass them by.
kivi says: Then you are actively engaged in trying to create a Jew-free world. I know you don't want to see that. But see to your children and your grandchildren. Converts to Christainity do not pass on their Jewish identity. You, personally, can still be a part of that identity, because you are still part of that generation, but your descendents won't. And you know it. And maybe that is what you really want. Maybe that is what you mean by sin and salvation. But I don't want that and I will fight it with every tool at my commandment.



Some people use the history of persecution as a tool for emotional security. If they can be "special" then maybe people will love them more. Others choose to remember, but not dwell on it, because we already know we are special. We won't let it happen again, because we have empowered ourselves. We don't need to rely on tragic histories that constantly keep others distant from us, and worse, keep us from approaching them. We see people as our chance to fulfill a mitzvah, not a chance to get their sympathy and make them feel responsible for something they themselves think is sinful.



For some Jews, Christians would have to be their slaves and bake their dinners for two millenia before they would choose to forgive and move on. To them, I say repent. The Christians have been helping us in ways most of us refuse to see because it makes our efforts to help others of different faiths look quite lazy.
kivi says: Its hard to drain the swamp when your killing alligators. And I think we are fufilling our duties to Mankind as Mankind's Preisthood very well by being the World's canaries.

A good Jew loves his Christian neighbour, and doesn;t blame him for the holocaust. That's the "Torah truth" brother.
kivi says: I don' blame the individual Christian, I point to the institutional anti semitism at the core of Christianity. I have consistantly pointed to the institutional problem, not the individual.

[kivi]

Yes, we did. We even orchestrated it in some parts of the world, using the secular government as our helper.
kivi says: NO, we did not.



That world is sad and scared.



What, you don't have a Jewish book store near you? Gosh...I wouldn't know where to start. Herald of Destiny by Wein? Eisenstadt's "Jewish Civilsation". There's an excellent book also on the topic of influential Jewish societies in Europe during the MIddle Ages- a recent book...can't remember it...do a Google.
kivi says: Its your claim, you do the google. I do the google when I want to claim something. I will not do your job. I have all of Wein's books and they do not support your claim.




For a response to cynicism about Jewish accomplishments, see Silbiger's "The Jewish Phenomenon"
kivi says: I was not being cynical. I was just being aware of the price we pay.




It was Neitzche.

By the way, you being here and giving apology for Judaism is just being a missionary by another name. Same reasonings by my book.
kivi says: They are not equivalent. We are not asking Christains to stop being Christian unless being anti semitc goes along with Christianity. We are most definitly not asking them to become Jewish. To say the two are equivalent is to be untruthful about the reality of Christian missionary efforts and the defense of Judaism. Now, I understand why you would want to hide the differences. It makes sense. Considering that you are a Jew who left the practice of Judaism and now acts like a Christian. It makes it seem that we are just as aggressive and seeking world domination as Christian missionaries. A variation on the old Jewish conspiracy stories. A variation on the playground game of 'don't blame me, he does it too'. But it is 'not true and you know it. Come on CM, you're better than that. According to you, you didn't come to Christianity through the missionaries. You had your own private epiphany. You don't have to defend the missionaries. You don't have to defend everything that Christianity does to prove your loyalty.

[kivi]

I love kivi....he loves me. No kidding. We just want to be frank about things. It might sound ugly, but it isn't.

kivi says: Have no doubt, CM is one of the most honest and straightforward men I have met for a long time. I think that we allow each other to cut to the truth as we understand it because we see the good and the committed in each other. I hope that is the case for CM, I know it is the case for me. For me, when I am talking to CM, he makes me clarify and tighten my thinking, so that, I hope, when others read our discussions, they can get a correct distillation of the issues.
luv ya, man, luv ya.:clap:

[kivi]

Don't let me stop you! I can't make them like you or accept your words though. I will be an interested observer.

What will you say to them?

kivi says: I am not asking they like me or accept my words, I am asking not to be RVed or deleted or banished. How about that? What do I have to do not to have that happen? ^_^

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: Oh, I think that the Christian coalition [that's funny>US, England, USSR] that 'saved' the Jews did so as a unsought for side 'benefit' in trying to save its own tush. That is nice for us. The up-side of 'unforseen consequences'.:cool: Of course, the moral, political and military actions and intentions of all the participants in WWII is a lot more than just a post at CF can look at. Care to set up a seperate thread? I think that WWII is the very best laboratory for the investigation of Christian anti semitism and the Jews that is available to us. Love to run it down with you.:clap:

I was merely asking you to be consistant. You confound "Christian" with "nominally Christian"- the two are not the same. I was making the point- if "Christians" are responsible for Hitler, because Germany happened to have a state Church, then "Christians" are responsible for the liberation of the camps, because for example England has a State Church. Then you have the problem of nations that did not fight in the war but sheltered the Jews- Sweden, a "Christian" country with a State Church being one example. Such nations had no motive for self-preservation to do so, but ratther did so out of Christian charity.


kivi says: Oh, please B'er CM, don't thow me into the brier bush.

"In 2005, the Italian daily, Corriere della Sera, discovered a letter dated November 20, 1946, showing that Pope Pius XII ordered Jewish babies baptized by Catholics during the Holocaust (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/holo.html) not to be returned to their parents. Some scholars said the disclosure was not new and that the Pope's behavior was not remarkable. The more important story, according to Rabbi David Rosen, international director of interreligious affairs for the American Jewish Committee, was that one of the recipients of the letter, Angelo Roncalli, the papal representative in Paris, ignored the papal directive.(32) (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html#N_32_)"

Oh..that old one. I would have thought you would go for a better one than that.

This is a more consistant analysis of the Pope during the war. (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html)

This might also help balance out such biased claims against Pius XII. (http://www.michaeljournal.org/piusXII.htm)

Then there's the other world leaders (King of Bulgaria for example) who helped the Jews. In fact, many Jews became Christians (Rome's own Chief Rabbi, Rabbi Zolli for example) because of the support of Christians during the war.

But, and this is important- you have yet to show what policy of the church was anti-Jewish. A papal opinion, counsel or advisement is not policy. Only ex-cathedra counciliar statements are policy. Likewise, if the church was protestant, it would have to be in the Confessional statements- none of which were altered during the war.

One thing about the Roman Catholics though- they don't really believe in actively converting the Jews anymore, especially since Vatican II's "Nostra Aetate".


kivi says:Oh, I don't think that being a canary is not a moral vocation from G-d. Its what we signed up for. And somebody has to do it. But I will not say that being a canary is an easy job. Galus is Galus.I have no idea what you mean.

kivi says: Any Christian organization that supports any missionary activity directed at Jews. How about any Christian organization that funds J4J? How about any Christian organziation that does not actively fight against the quotation from John that says that anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ is of the spirit of the antichrist.
2 John 1 (King James Version):
"7For many are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. "What we have here is, to quote Cool Hand Luke, is a failure to communicate.

Who says becoming a Christian instantly makes one cease being a Jew? Isn't that rather an assumption of the anti-missionaries? I keep Shabbos, I wear tzitzis, I cover my head with hat or kippa, I don teffillin every day, keep a kosher kitchen and have a mezuzah on my door (even one in my car!). Sure, some Jews assimilate, but I'd argue that they were assimilating anyway! I, on the other hand, am strongly encouraged to keep my Jewish identity intact- by the Church! Therefore, only a hostile bias could argue that Christian missionary organisations are meant to assimilate Jews and thus achieve vicariously Hitler's final solution! SO, I say, there's nothing wrong with telling people to follow after the Moshiach- if Chabad can do it, so can I! Why "fight" against telling people about the Messiah?

Next- that verse- who says that's got anything to do with the Jews? Certainly not in any orthodox context. Most decent scholars readily tell you that the context is directed towards gnostic Christians. I think that is self-evident, as we know by the fathers that gnostic Christians were the ones in John's time denying the physical presence of Moshiach. Why should Christians "fight" against that verse?

kivi says: Then you are actively engaged in trying to create a Jew-free world. I know you don't want to see that. But see to your children and your grandchildren. Converts to Christainity do not pass on their Jewish identity. You, personally, can still be a part of that identity, because you are still part of that generation, but your descendents won't. And you know it. And maybe that is what you really want. Maybe that is what you mean by sin and salvation. But I don't want that and I will fight it with every tool at my commandment. OK...from that perspective, I would agree with you. But, I am aware of the danger my friend, as are most JBY (Jewish believers in Yeshua, as some Israeli MJs call it). We are always working at preserving our identity and indeed influencing the church positively towards that end. It's doing well too.

kivi says: Its hard to drain the swamp when your killing alligators. And I think we are fufilling our duties to Mankind as Mankind's Preisthood very well by being the World's canaries.

Canaries?


kivi says: I don' blame the individual Christian, I point to the institutional anti semitism at the core of Christianity. I have consistantly pointed to the institutional problem, not the individual. I've not seen an institutionalised anti-semitism in my years in the church. I just don't see it.

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: I am not asking they like me or accept my words, I am asking not to be RVed or deleted or banished. How about that? What do I have to do not to have that happen? ^_^

Well, I don't know. Just try it out. I'll have your back as much as I can. The thing is, get me started on Luther's later career and I'll get booted out of the forum!

[kivi]

Well, I don't know. Just try it out. I'll have your back as much as I can. The thing is, get me started on Luther's later career and I'll get booted out of the forum!

kivi says: You got a deal. Let me think on this and I'll get back to you on Thrus. I know that Luther was a deeply flawed man. I don't hold him a bad guy for that, as such. We all have our character defects. And he was brilliant in parts. Kind of a mixed bag, as most of us are. What I am interested in what the Lutherans do with it. See you on Thurs about this. if you want to check in with your moderators friends about any feedback or suggestions, the more, the merrier.:amen:

[kivi]

TO CM IN the 1800's coal mines had an horrific saftey record, in large part because of the all too common methane explosions. In an attempt to protect themselves from methane> a orderless, colorless, poisonous, heavier than air, highly explosive gas natural to coal deposits <the miners would bring in canaries in cages and set the cages on the floors of the mines. When the canaries started dieing, the miners would know that the mine was flooded with methane and the miners would escape.

The Jews, as the Priesthood to All of Mankind, are Mankind's canaries. When we start dieing, know that the 'nieghborhood' is unsafe for any human. There is a difference between the Jews and the canaries. For us, the cage is unlocked and we are fully aware of the danger. The entire purpose of Torah Mitzvah spiritual discipline is to keep us in the cages, at our posts even when the mine is being flooded wth methane and the Camps are being built.

[kivi]

You confound "Christian" with "nominally Christian"- the two are not the same.

kivi says: I am not going there. It is an impossible land of pot smoke and magic mirrors. Who is a Christian, who isn't, what is 'real' christianity, what is 'nominal'. How do you know a person's heart, how do you not. It is all mishagas. "Alice in Wonderland"-ville. A Christian is a person who says they are Christian and can point to something like a baptism. A Christian institution, whether religious or secular, is one that says it is one and can show some historic contact with Christian historic evolution. A Christian society is one in which most of the members can claim to be Christian and most of the dominating institutions are Christian [based on the pervious 2 definitions]. I never expect, considering the 'diversity' of Christainity, for Christianity to be consistant.

Therefore, all of Europe, was Christian [possible exception: Albania]. All governments were Christian; all major instititions in Europe were Christian and the vast majority of people involved in the war were Christians. WWII was a Christian war with some Christian peoples, institutions and nations fighting other Christian peoples, institutions and nations. That is perfectly historically consistant.

[kivi]

Oh..that old one. I would have thought you would go for a better one than that.

This is a more consistant analysis of the Pope during the war. (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html)

This might also help balance out such biased claims against Pius XII. (http://www.michaeljournal.org/piusXII.htm)

Then there's the other world leaders (King of Bulgaria for example) who helped the Jews. In fact, many Jews became Christians (Rome's own Chief Rabbi, Rabbi Zolli for example) because of the support of Christians during the war.

But, and this is important- you have yet to show what policy of the church was anti-Jewish. A papal opinion, counsel or advisement is not policy. Only ex-cathedra counciliar statements are policy. Likewise, if the church was protestant, it would have to be in the Confessional statements- none of which were altered during the war.
kivi says: I'm an old Anglican. Don't go there with Confessionals and ex-cathedra. I am fully aware of the intimate interaction of policy and implimentation; of long term strategic and short term tactical; of personal vs institutional needs; etc. The war was too fast for any thing to be changed at the official policy level. I know that. But at the implimentation level all sorts of spiritual worms and moral cancers had a chance to manifest themselves. I also recognize that the RC Church over the last few years has been involved in a major campaign to clean up its image in regards to the Holocaust. So sad that it would have to. And I know it has used Jewish scholars as part of that effort. And I know that the fissures within the RC Church were major and serious on the issue of the Holocaust. Nothing is black and white and G-d bless all of those who saved even one Jew.
Maybe my standards are impossibly high. But I noticed that the Pope wasn't on any of the trains. Not one! Not one!! None of the trains had all of the Cardinals. He failed, they failed. The RC Church failed. I noticed that none of the trains had the heirarchy of the Lutheran Chruch. Not one. NOT ONE!!!!!!!! The Lutherans failed. I could go down the list of each and every Church in Europe. NONE OF THEM WERE THERE! Christianity failed. Absolutely. And it wasn't like they failed the Jews. What Christainity failed was itself. Absolutely, totally, un-reversibly. The test came to put what Christianity claims is in its faith into action and it failed. For Christianity to have succeeded, the Camps should have been choked to the ovens with Christians trying to get in.

One thing about the Roman Catholics though- they don't really believe in actively converting the Jews anymore, especially since Vatican II's "Nostra Aetate".
kivi says: Thank G-d someone got it.


I have no idea what you mean.

What we have here is, to quote Cool Hand Luke, is a failure to communicate.

Who says becoming a Christian instantly makes one cease being a Jew?
kivi says: Not me.

Isn't that rather an assumption of the anti-missionaries? I keep Shabbos, I wear tzitzis, I cover my head with hat or kippa, I don teffillin every day, keep a kosher kitchen and have a mezuzah on my door (even one in my car!). Sure, some Jews assimilate, but I'd argue that they were assimilating anyway! I, on the other hand, am strongly encouraged to keep my Jewish identity intact- by the Church! Therefore, only a hostile bias could argue that Christian missionary organisations are meant to assimilate Jews and thus achieve vicariously Hitler's final solution!
kivi says: And I have a hostile bias. Your point is? My bias is based on the evidence of my personal live and what I see. And what I see is an overwhelming assimulation of Jews into gentile Christian society vacilitated and encouraged by the Missionaries in the US. I now see an active effort to convert Jews in Israel. I see the unavoidable result of more assimulation. Of course, I am bias and of course I am hostile. I should be.

SO, I say, there's nothing wrong with telling people to follow after the Moshiach- if Chabad can do it, so can I! Why "fight" against telling people about the Messiah?
kivi says: CHABAD only goes after Jews, you know that. Trying to confuse the Jewish Messiah with the Christian Trinity is hardly transparent.

Next- that verse- who says that's got anything to do with the Jews? Certainly not in any orthodox context. Most decent scholars readily tell you that the context is directed towards gnostic Christians. I think that is self-evident, as we know by the fathers that gnostic Christians were the ones in John's time denying the physical presence of Moshiach. Why should Christians "fight" against that verse?
kivi says: I really don't care where it came from. The 'average Christian' who threw that in my face may not have been up to your level of scholarship. They saw it as a convenient weapon to condemn any non-Christian, including this Jew. Any part of Christian dogma, scriptures and theology that can be used as such a weapon needs to be taken care of by Christianity. Christianty needs to be responsible and police itself.

OK...from that perspective, I would agree with you. But, I am aware of the danger my friend, as are most JBY (Jewish believers in Yeshua, as some Israeli MJs call it). We are always working at preserving our identity and indeed influencing the church positively towards that end. It's doing well too.



Canaries?
kivi says: Come on, you know that most Jews who convert are trying to assimulate into gentile Christian society with a name change, a 'nose job' and a position re-location, physically and socially. They are not about becoming more Jewish, but less Jewish. Its called 'passing'. And the Missionaries vacilitate such actions. Its hard to be Jewish in a gentile society. It is so much easier just to give in and go with the flow. While the Hitlers and the Progroms and all of the rest killed a lot of us, the real enemy of Judaism has been and always will be assimulation. The final giving up on the hard way to serve G-d, looking for a soft and easier path, even if the cost if giving up on yourself.


I've not seen an institutionalised anti-semitism in my years in the church. I just don't see it.
kivi says: To the best of my 'remembering', I don't think I have ever heard what Church you are a member of.

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: You got a deal. Let me think on this and I'll get back to you on Thrus. I know that Luther was a deeply flawed man. I don't hold him a bad guy for that, as such. We all have our character defects. And he was brilliant in parts. Kind of a mixed bag, as most of us are. What I am interested in what the Lutherans do with it. See you on Thurs about this. if you want to check in with your moderators friends about any feedback or suggestions, the more, the merrier.:amen:

Well, it will be interesting.

TO CM IN the 1800's coal mines had an horrific saftey record, in large part because of the all too common methane explosions. In an attempt to protect themselves from methane> a orderless, colorless, poisonous, heavier than air, highly explosive gas natural to coal deposits <the miners would bring in canaries in cages and set the cages on the floors of the mines. When the canaries started dieing, the miners would know that the mine was flooded with methane and the miners would escape.

The Jews, as the Priesthood to All of Mankind, are Mankind's canaries. When we start dieing, know that the 'nieghborhood' is unsafe for any human. There is a difference between the Jews and the canaries. For us, the cage is unlocked and we are fully aware of the danger. The entire purpose of Torah Mitzvah spiritual discipline is to keep us in the cages, at our posts even when the mine is being flooded wth methane and the Camps are being built.

I thought that might be your angle. Thanks for clearing that up.

kivi says: I am not going there. It is an impossible land of pot smoke and magic mirrors. Who is a Christian, who isn't, what is 'real' christianity, what is 'nominal'. How do you know a person's heart, how do you not. It is all mishagas. "Alice in Wonderland"-ville. A Christian is a person who says they are Christian and can point to something like a baptism. A Christian institution, whether religious or secular, is one that says it is one and can show some historic contact with Christian historic evolution. A Christian society is one in which most of the members can claim to be Christian and most of the dominating institutions are Christian [based on the pervious 2 definitions]. I never expect, considering the 'diversity' of Christainity, for Christianity to be consistant.

In reality, according to the NT (let's drop the sociological stuff on this forum), is someone who is born-again, not through baptism, but by conversion through the work of the Holy Spirit. I have never heard of a single born again Christian, now or in history, who supports violence as a means of getting anything done.

Therefore, all of Europe, was Christian [possible exception: Albania]. All governments were Christian; all major instititions in Europe were Christian and the vast majority of people involved in the war were Christians. WWII was a Christian war with some Christian peoples, institutions and nations fighting other Christian peoples, institutions and nations. That is perfectly historically consistant.

Well, I would not agree with that one teensy bit. Why? Christians were also the victims of the death camps, the killing, the bombing and the jails.

[kivi]

Well, it will be interesting.
kivi says: :cool:



I thought that might be your angle. Thanks for clearing that up.
kivi says: You are welcome.:thumbsup:

In reality, according to the NT (let's drop the sociological stuff on this forum), is someone who is born-again, not through baptism, but by conversion through the work of the Holy Spirit. I have never heard of a single born again Christian, now or in history, who supports violence as a means of getting anything done.
kivi says: Sorry, I can't accomodate you. 'Born again' is not an identifiable quality. It requires me or any other researcher to 'read a heart'. Can't be done. The early members of the Puritan community in Mass. were 'born again', that didn't stop them from burning witches or stringing up Quakers. So, I'll have to go with the categorization I gave. Otherwise, I am forced to use subjective criteria, which is back to the Land of Pot Smoke and Magic Mirrors.

Well, I would not agree with that one teensy bit. Why? Christians were also the victims of the death camps, the killing, the bombing and the jails.
kivi says: Yes, some where, but most did not. The Church should have wanted/craved to go to the Camps, not be dragged there, kicking and screaming. The Church should have been at the gates of Trebinka, stringing itself on the gallows, forcing themselves into the gas chambers, jumping into the crematoriums. And I said that maybe I have an impossible personal standard. But its my standard and I'm sticking to it.

[ContraMundum]

The war was too fast for any thing to be changed at the official policy level. I know that.

'zactly.

But at the implimentation level all sorts of spiritual worms and moral cancers had a chance to manifest themselves. I also recognize that the RC Church over the last few years has been involved in a major campaign to clean up its image in regards to the Holocaust. So sad that it would have to. And I know it has used Jewish scholars as part of that effort. And I know that the fissures within the RC Church were major and serious on the issue of the Holocaust. Nothing is black and white and G-d bless all of those who saved even one Jew. Yes indeed.

Maybe my standards are impossibly high.Yes indeed.

But I noticed that the Pope wasn't on any of the trains. Not one! Not one!! None of the trains had all of the Cardinals. He failed, they failed. The RC Church failed. I noticed that none of the trains had the heirarchy of the Lutheran Chruch. Not one. NOT ONE!!!!!!!! The Lutherans failed. Sad truth: God was sovereign the whole time. The Church failed, the Rabbis failed to see the writing on the wall until it was too late.

But, you see, this is the issue: God was sovereign. The enemy was not God though, nor was it people who followed His way. It was sinners, being sinners, with such evil force and all the power Satan could muster. You might not have seen Popes or Cardinals going to the camps, but you did see priests, nuns, and ordinary Catholics. Plenty of Protestant leaders and lay people went to their death under Hitler too. Even unorthodox "Christians" like the JWs - who defended the Jews- went to the camps and died en masse.

The war was not "Christianity vs. everybody else", it was "Evil vs. God". God's people, Jewish and Christian, had to do what they had to do to survive. Hitler was not their friend, he was their enemy!

I could go down the list of each and every Church in Europe. NONE OF THEM WERE THERE! Christianity failed. Absolutely. And it wasn't like they failed the Jews. What Christainity failed was itself. Absolutely, totally, un-reversibly. The test came to put what Christianity claims is in its faith into action and it failed. For Christianity to have succeeded, the Camps should have been choked to the ovens with Christians trying to get in.You misunderstand. All the countries were there. All of them fought against the evil. All of them lost lives. All of them were victims of war. Many of them lost more people than the Jewish nation (USSR- 20 million) Eventually, these nations you label as Christian failures prevailed in victory, liberated all the victims of the camps, overthrew Hitler, and helped set up the State of Israel. That's all good, no?

Not every country paid the price in the ovens. Most of them paid the price on the battlefield or in millions of civilian dead through violence and starvation. The death of a child in a London bombing raid is just as valuable as a Jew in the death camps. Hitler wanted both dead- he used whatever means he could to get to them.

Like I said, you have to be consistant. If nations are only "Christian" when they fail and not when they do good, what kind of false judgement is that? Is that not against the Torah to employ differing scales and measures?

I think you show disrespect the dead Gentiles who fought and suffered under Hitler's war. I also think you expected the Church to be able to overpower Hitler and force him to surrender his campaign against the Jews. As became evident, the church had no such power against the far more numerous minions of Hitler. It also fought for survival.

Remember the Jews who worked for Hitler in the camps and in the ghettos as volunteers or police? Well, we both know they were just trying to survive. Try to understand that Christians regard churches who compromised or supported the Nazis as the same kind of traitors, ok?

kivi says: And I have a hostile bias. Your point is? My bias is based on the evidence of my personal live and what I see. And what I see is an overwhelming assimulation of Jews into gentile Christian society vacilitated and encouraged by the Missionaries in the US. I now see an active effort to convert Jews in Israel. I see the unavoidable result of more assimulation. Of course, I am bias and of course I am hostile. I should be.Take off the blinders, brother. Before there was a such thing as "Jews for Jesus" or other missionary groups like them Jews were already well into assimilating. Just read the Tanach for proof.

BTW- the Jews in Israel finding Yeshua as Messiah are finding Him either through miracles or through other Jews 99% of the time. Now, they are keeping their Jewish identity, remaining Jewish in all ways (certainly moreso than most secular Jews) and they contribute to society by army service and getting jobs etc. Ever see this news story? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sEBAldf4L0)

In fact, I'd argue they're doing better as Israeli Jews than some of the Chasidic groups who do far less with their lives and milk the government for funds.

What probably hurts you the most is that if Yeshua really is the Messiah, then Jews coming to Him is God's will, is good for them, and ultimately is the solution for peace within and in the world. Ever watch this? (http://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/15_7/forbidden_peace)




kivi says: CHABAD only goes after Jews, you know that. Trying to confuse the Jewish Messiah with the Christian Trinity is hardly transparent.

kivi says: I really don't care where it came from. The 'average Christian' who threw that in my face may not have been up to your level of scholarship. They saw it as a convenient weapon to condemn any non-Christian, including this Jew. Any part of Christian dogma, scriptures and theology that can be used as such a weapon needs to be taken care of by Christianity. Christianty needs to be responsible and police itself.Well, here's the problem: you can't throw out the baby with the bathwater. That verse is true, even if it is abused. Gold is gold even if worn by a harlot. Care to discuss the abused verses of the Tanach? Should the Jews throw them out?

kivi says: Come on, you know that most Jews who convert are trying to assimulate into gentile Christian society with a name change, a 'nose job' and a position re-location, physically and socially. News to me. In fact, I'd say that's complete bullocks. What does a Jew need to achieve with a nose job, name change etc. that he or she can't achieve by being themselves? You know, they don't hand you a box of gold buillion when you become a Christian. In fact, you get a cross to bear and you enter into a conflict with worldly values, greed, and consumerism. There's absolutely no worldy benefit to become a Christian.

The final giving up on the hard way to serve G-d, looking for a soft and easier path, even if the cost if giving up on yourself.True Christianity is a lot harder than you think. Loving your enemies, helping the needy, changing your lifestyle completely, conquering sin, being led by God and not by your carnal self, going good in the world and much much more. Admit it, you know Jews who attend shule every week and do far less. I know Christians that are lazy and don't work hard at being Christian too. But let me tell you, comparing both lifestyles, being good at being Christian is harder than you think and I'd wager harder than you had seen in your previous life among them.

kivi says: To the best of my 'remembering', I don't think I have ever heard what Church you are a member of.I'm Anglican. But I do it the hard way. It's worth the pain.

[kivi]

'zactly. I'm Anglican. But I do it the hard way. It's worth the pain.

kivi says: ^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^'cuse me while I roll on the floor in an uncontrollable fit of laughter. We really did pass in the night. And you recognize Union Theological. HaHaHaHaHa!!!!!!!!!!! How 'High' are you? If you're Anglican, probable not very Low? Still part of the Communion or are you one of the split-offs? How totally funny. My brother has come back to the Church, after a long time as an agnostic, very much involved in stopping the splintering. I wish him well. Hate to see the old gang tear itself apart. National is still my Cathedral.:thumbsup: Did a lot of good work there, especially the Yorkshire Mystery Cycle during the 60's and 70's. I'm so happy they finally finished the Cathedral, though being part of the construction was always a thrill. Often watched the stone masons at work. :clap:Got a chance to visit about 10 years ago, really a wonderful time. I watch whenever there is a service on TV just to check in.

[ContraMundum]

So, I'll have to go with the categorization I gave. Otherwise, I am forced to use subjective criteria, which is back to the Land of Pot Smoke and Magic Mirrors.

Perhaps that is all God will allow us to see.


kivi says: Yes, some where, but most did not. The Church should have wanted/craved to go to the Camps, not be dragged there, kicking and screaming. The Church should have been at the gates of Trebinka, stringing itself on the gallows, forcing themselves into the gas chambers, jumping into the crematoriums. And I said that maybe I have an impossible personal standard. But its my standard and I'm sticking to it.

I honestly don't think anyone would logically wanted or craved to be a victim of a death camp. By such reasoning, Jews should have wanted or craved to be victims of them as well when they saw Christians or JWs or Communists (who went first!) go the death camps. Did we see that? Nope. Let's apply equal canons to this discussion, eh?

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: ^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^'cuse me while I roll on the floor in an uncontrollable fit of laughter. We really did pass in the night.
I told you that already on that other thread! LOL

And you recognize Union Theological. HaHaHaHaHa!!!!!!!!!!!

What's that?

How 'High' are you? If you're Anglican, probable not very Low? Still part of the Communion or are you one of the split-offs? How totally funny.

Me: both High and Low, clergy, Continuer, Messianic. Multi-tasking conservative, love my charites.

My brother has come back to the Church, after a long time as an agnostic, very much involved in stopping the splintering. I wish him well. Hate to see the old gang tear itself apart. National is still my Cathedral.:thumbsup: Did a lot of good work there, especially the Yorkshire Mystery Cycle during the 60's and 70's. I'm so happy they finally finished the Cathedral, though being part of the construction was always a thrill. Often watched the stone masons at work. :clap:Got a chance to visit about 10 years ago, really a wonderful time. I watch whenever there is a service on TV just to check in.

I totally have no idea about any of that. I'm in another country, in another world theologically and have my own battles to win. If I were in your country I'd be in a world of hurt.

[kivi]

'zactly.

Yes indeed.

Yes indeed.

Sad truth: God was sovereign the whole time. The Church failed, the Rabbis failed to see the writing on the wall until it was too late.

But, you see, this is the issue: God was sovereign. The enemy was not God though, nor was it people who followed His way. It was sinners, being sinners, with such evil force and all the power Satan could muster.
kivi says: You know I am not buying that. Judaism has no independent Devil in revolt against G-d. Its all G-d, from beginning to end.


You might not have seen Popes or Cardinals going to the camps, but you did see priests, nuns, and ordinary Catholics. Plenty of Protestant leaders and lay people went to their death under Hitler too. Even unorthodox "Christians" like the JWs - who defended the Jews- went to the camps and died en masse.

The war was not "Christianity vs. everybody else", it was "Evil vs. God". God's people, Jewish and Christian, had to do what they had to do to survive. Hitler was not their friend, he was their enemy!
kivi says: I see the Christian Church as an institution as the primary source of that evil. It is the creator and supporter. The hiearchy of the churchs didn't go because they supported the efforts of the Nazis, if not actively, at least passively. A lot like old Pilate. And they saw their dream, a Jew-free Europe and one they could disclaim responsiblity for. All they had to do with sell their souls. And they did, cheaply.

You misunderstand.
kivi says: I don't think so.

All the countries were there. All of them fought against the evil. All of them lost lives. All of them were victims of war. Many of them lost more people than the Jewish nation (USSR- 20 million) Eventually, these nations you label as Christian failures prevailed in victory, liberated all the victims of the camps, overthrew Hitler, and helped set up the State of Israel. That's all good, no?
kivi says: No, it is not all good. Most of it was evil on the part of most of the Christain countries and institutions of Europe. Some of it was good. It is good that Hitler was defeated. It is bad that most of the Christian governments thought that what happened to the Jews were none of their business or they could get an advantage from the destruction of European Jewry. That is their failure.

Not every country paid the price in the ovens.
kivi says: The ovens are not equivalent to Dresden.

Most of them paid the price on the battlefield or in millions of civilian dead through violence and starvation. The death of a child in a London bombing raid is just as valuable as a Jew in the death camps. Hitler wanted both dead- he used whatever means he could to get to them.
kivi says: It seems to me that the Lincoln's 2nd is a better analysis of the moral situation.

Like I said, you have to be consistant
kivi says: I am being very consistant. A pox on all of the Houses.

If nations are only "Christian" when they fail and not when they do good, what kind of false judgement is that? Is that not against the Torah to employ differing scales and measures?
kivi says: I said that there were Christian nations fighting Christian nations for Christian reasons; if the Jews got any benefit, it was a unintended result. If the Lutheran nations of Denmark and Sweden stood up to the Nazis as best they could and the Lutheran nation of Germany was the center of the Nazi power, then it wasn't the fact of being Lutheran that was the difference between the two because the two shared the same variable. It had to be something different. It was not the religious component that made the difference. It was something more basic than just religious belief or theology or polity. Something more than just mere faith.

I think you show disrespect the dead Gentiles who fought and suffered under Hitler's war.
kivi says: No, I don't. What I show disrespect for are the institutions and nations of Christendom and their leaders.

I also think you expected the Church to be able to overpower Hitler and force him to surrender his campaign against the Jews.
kivi says: I expect the Church to die trying. And if it didn't, it failed itself and thought itself, all of humanity. Don't you think that if the Church had died trying that G-d would not have directly intervened? I do. And if G-d didn't, that would be further proof of the moral bankruptcy of Chirstiendom. Christendom as a set of institutions, beliefs and moral leadership lost its integrity and authority. It can not get it back.

As became evident, the church had no such power against the far more numerous minions of Hitler. It also fought for survival.
kivi says: There was no fight. The Church surrendered. Willing and joyously, like a blushing bride . And in some hearts in the Church, the surrender was the same surrender that the Church did to Constantine. For the surrender of its moral authority, the Church got to get the Jews.

Remember the Jews who worked for Hitler in the camps and in the ghettos as volunteers or police? Well, we both know they were just trying to survive. Try to understand that Christians regard churches who compromised or supported the Nazis as the same kind of traitors, ok?
kivi says: I have no love lost or respect for kapos. The moral ambivilence question is pure moral rot. They acted as traitors to themselves and the Jewish communities they were supposed to be leaders of.
Then why do those Christians not tear down the Churches that particpated? Every Christian church building and shrine and religious sanctuary should be rubble as the result of Christians destroying them in horror and guilt. Every Pope and Archbishop and church functionary should have been drummed out of position. The Christians you refer to should have collectively spiritually retched in shame and disgust and started all over again, stripping every potentially Jew hating teaching from the Church and renouncing all of the previous Church dealings with the Jews. And how would they know a teaching was Jew hating? They would have asked the Jews.

Take off the blinders, brother. Before there was a such thing as "Jews for Jesus" or other missionary groups like them Jews were already well into assimilating. Just read the Tanach for proof.
kvi says: I do what I can. I understand the Missionaries. I have the type of training and personal background that makes me useful. I do what I can in the face of the moral decay of assimulation. The pressure of assimulation took the Northern Kingdom. Assimulation has been problem #One from the beginning. But when we fight it and the Christian manifestation of the Missionaries, G-d will protect us as He did in Puim and Hannukah and though out history. We have to do our part. Fighting J4J, etc is part of that job.

BTW- the Jews in Israel finding Yeshua as Messiah are finding Him either through miracles or through other Jews 99% of the time. Now, they are keeping their Jewish identity, remaining Jewish in all ways (certainly moreso than most secular Jews) and they contribute to society by army service and getting jobs etc. Ever see this news story? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sEBAldf4L0)
kivi says: I am not buying that. I refrain from saying the depth of my emotions in response to your statement in honor of my concern for you. But the idea you present sickens me. Because it is both untrue and an excuse for denying the extent of evil the Missionaries are involved in.

In fact, I'd argue they're doing better as Israeli Jews than some of the Chasidic groups who do far less with their lives and milk the government for funds.
kivi says: And I would argue they are a slow cancer in the Jewish soul. And the religious groups provide the spiritual foundation that all of the rest in Israel rests on. If we are not to decay into being just like the rest of the nations, then we need more that Uzis, we need tefillin and tallis, Midrash and Halachah.

What probably hurts you the most is that if Yeshua really is the Messiah, then Jews coming to Him is God's will, is good for them, and ultimately is the solution for peace within and in the world. Ever watch this? (http://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/15_7/forbidden_peace)
kivi says: And I could argue that what probably hurts you the most is that if you are wrong, you are a traitor to you and yours. That the history of Judaism will prove that you have abandoned G-d. And that your rejection of Judaism is an averiah to G-d and Torah. Now, I would not want to go there. We know we disagree. We still respect each other. So, I would perfer not to get too personal. A little 'professional distance' is necessary, I think, so we can remaind on good terms. And I want to remain on good terms.

kivi says: CHABAD only goes after Jews, you know that. Trying to confuse the Jewish Messiah with the Christian Trinity is hardly transparent.

CM: Well, here's the problem: you can't throw out the baby with the bathwater. That verse is true, even if it is abused. Gold is gold even if worn by a harlot. Care to discuss the abused verses of the Tanach? Should the Jews throw them out?
kivi says: Go for it.

News to me. In fact, I'd say that's complete bullocks. What does a Jew need to achieve with a nose job, name change etc. that he or she can't achieve by being themselves? You know, they don't hand you a box of gold buillion when you become a Christian. In fact, you get a cross to bear and you enter into a conflict with worldly values, greed, and consumerism. There's absolutely no [I]worldy benefit to become a Christian.
kivi says: I've been there. You can't throw that bullock at me. Your naivete' does not become you. I know the benefits of being Christian, 1st hand. The absolute comfort that you are the standard to which all else strive. A comfort so absolute that you don't know you have it until you loose it. Doors that open that being nominal Christian cause that a Jew would not even know was a door. Most of the assimulated don't become religious Christians, they become secular Christians, with a secular Christmas and New Year's and Labor Day and Thanksgiving and fade away into the general mass of ordinary Americans. Its their childen who feel the spiritual loss and what do they know? TBS and Calvary Chapel. And so another generation is gone, just like the Northern Kingdom.

True Christianity is a lot harder than you think. Loving your enemies, helping the needy, changing your lifestyle completely, conquering sin, being led by God and not by your carnal self, going good in the world and much much more.
kivi says: You have never converted to Judaism. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Admit it, you know Jews who attend shule every week and do far less. I know Christians that are lazy and don't work hard at being Christian too. But let me tell you, comparing both lifestyles, being good at being Christian is harder than you think and I'd wager harder than you had seen in your previous life among them.
kivi says: Not hardly. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

I'm Anglican. But I do it the hard way. It's worth the pain.

[kivi]

kivi says: Australia, right?

I told you that already on that other thread! LOL

What's that?

Me: both High and Low, clergy, Continuer, Messianic. Multi-tasking conservative, love my charites.

I totally have no idea about any of that. I'm in another country, in another world theologically and have my own battles to win. If I were in your country I'd be in a world of hurt.

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: You know I am not buying that. Judaism has no independent Devil in revolt against G-d. Its all G-d, from beginning to end.

Have you not read Job? That same Devil went to God and did His best in WWII. That's how Christians also see the Devil.

kivi says: I see the Christian Church as an institution as the primary source of that evil. It is the creator and supporter. The hiearchy of the churchs didn't go because they supported the efforts of the Nazis, if not actively, at least passively. A lot like old Pilate. And they saw their dream, a Jew-free Europe and one they could disclaim responsiblity for. All they had to do with sell their souls. And they did, cheaply.There's a lot of assertion in that. I don't think you could prove it if you had 1000 years to do so. Not one statement in that paragraph is verifiable.

kivi says: The ovens are not equivalent to Dresden.They are to God, according to Judaism as I know it.

kivi says: It seems to me that the Lincoln's 2nd is a better analysis of the moral situation.I'm not familiar with that.

kivi says: I said that there were Christian nations fighting Christian nations for Christian reasons; if the Jews got any benefit, it was a unintended result. If the Lutheran nations of Denmark and Sweden stood up to the Nazis as best they could and the Lutheran nation of Germany was the center of the Nazi power, then it wasn't the fact of being Lutheran that was the difference between the two because the two shared the same variable. It had to be something different. It was not the religious component that made the difference. It was something more basic than just religious belief or theology or polity. Something more than just mere faith. Exactly. These nations are not religious. The war was not religious. It was something different- it was evil forces working their desires. Now, they've duped you into blaming the puppets, not the puppeteers.


kivi says: No, I don't. What I show disrespect for are the institutions and nations of Christendom and their leaders....the very same nations and insitutions that give you a safe place to live.

kivi says: I expect the Church to die trying. And if it didn't, it failed itself and thought itself, all of humanity. Don't you think that if the Church had died trying that G-d would not have directly intervened? I do. And if G-d didn't, that would be further proof of the moral bankruptcy of Chirstiendom. Christendom as a set of institutions, beliefs and moral leadership lost its integrity and authority. It can not get it back. So, to you, the Church is the Superhero who saves Gotham City? If Gotham City is not saved, Superhero is to blame.

I thought you said God was all! Now you're saying that the Church must be God.

Even Christians don't think that the Church has that kind of power, nor will it have such power.

kivi says: There was no fight. The Church surrendered. Willing and joyously, like a blushing bride [I have an other analogy, but out of respect, I pass it by]. And in some hearts in the Church, the surrender was the same surrender that the Church did to Constantine. For the surrender of its moral authority, the Church got to get the Jews.That's just plain old waffle my friend. Please expand your reading.


kivi says: I have no love lost or respect for kapos. The moral ambivilence question is pure moral rot. They acted as traitors to themselves and the Jewish communities they were supposed to be leaders of.Exactly what Christians think about those who betrayed God in the War.

Then why do those Christians not tear down the Churches that particpated?The Christian Gospel does not allow for revenge. Enough blood had been spilt and damage done. Judgment came from God on those nations and places. Vengeance is his, not ours.

The Christians you refer to should have collectively spiritually retched in shame and disgust and started all over again, stripping every potentially Jew hating teaching from the Church and renouncing all of the previous Church dealings with the Jews. And how would they know a teaching was Jew hating? They would have asked the Jews.Slowly, it will happen, and it started already.

kvi says: I do what I can. I understand the Missionaries. I have the type of training and personal background that makes me useful. I do what I can in the face of the moral decay of assimulation. The pressure of assimulation took the Northern Kingdom. Assimulation has been problem #One from the beginning. But when we fight it and the Christian manifestation of the Missionaries, G-d will protect us as He did in Puim and Hannukah and though out history. We have to do our part. Fighting J4J, etc is part of that job.OK..enjoy that. All the apologetics in the world will not stop something if it is God's will.

kivi says: And I could argue that what probably hurts you the most is that if you are wrong, you are a traitor to you and yours. That the history of Judaism will prove that you have abandoned G-d. And that your rejection of Judaism is an averiah to G-d and Torah.If Judaism is true, I'll just get a bit of punishment and then I''l be reincarnated and come back as a cat or something (which means I won't have to keep Torah anyway as a cat) and get another try, according to the Zohar. That will continue until I've kept all the mitzvot absolutely perfectly. I win either way. Then another Jew will believe in annihilation of the soul, or another will say that I get tortured by my own demons for a time, or another will say that it will be just fine and all humanity will be ok. Nobody knows anything for sure in Judaism. OTOH, if Christianity is right- there's actual eternal consequences for sin, and we're both in trouble if we don't repent from our sin and turn to God in faith.

kivi says: Go for it.Another thread. You first. :)

kivi says: I've been there. You can't throw that bullock at me. Your naivete' does not become you. I know the benefits of being Christian, 1st hand. The absolute comfort that you are the standard to which all else strive. A comfort so absolute that you don't know you have it until you loose it. Doors that open that being nominal Christian cause that a Jew would not even know was a door. Wow, can you help me find that kind of thing? I must be doing something wrong!

kivi says: You have never converted to Judaism. You have no idea what you are talking about.I've thought about what you've said on this point. You are quite correct. Going from a Gentile to an Orthodox Jew would be hard. You wouldn't even know how to cook or wash your tallit katan without ruining it. I think I've taken that for granted. I apologise for that, knowing that you are striving to live like that from a cold start. It can't be easy for a Gentile.

kivi says: Australia, right?

Yes. BTW I know of another Jewish Anglican cleric in Aust. who went t'shuva. I haven't met him, but the reason I heard is that he felt that the NT doesn't think you have to be a believer in Jesus to be saved. I wish we had him on this thread...that would be interesting!

[kivi]

Me: both High and Low, clergy, Continuer, Messianic. Multi-tasking conservative, love my charites.
kivi says: What is a Continuer?



I totally have no idea about any of that. I'm in another country, in another world theologically and have my own battles to win. If I were in your country I'd be in a world of hurt.

excuse me< I'm slow, I just didn't get you are from Australia. Early Altztiemers????:confused:

Union Theological is one of the more established Episcopalian seminaries in the US, its in NYC, its pretty Board Church; the National Cathedral is in Washington DC, the US Capital. Its used for all the biggy religious services involving the Federal government. It took almost 100 years to build, they did the old fashion way, all stone, no structural steel. The Yourkshire Cycle are a cycle of mystery plays from the English middle ages, I stage managed and directed several summer runs at the National Cathderal in the 60's and 70's. Also was stage manager for several Christmas runs of 'Murder in a Cathderal' and 'Sleep of Prisoners' going to different Episcopal churches in the DC area. Huge problem in the US Episcopal communion over a gay Bishop. Lots of schism talk and action. My brother is part of a group of people trying t