Five Sources that should not be believed when they are talking about Judaism

[Torah613]

1. David Duke
2. the KJV
3. the Jewish encyclopedia
4. The Aryan Nations website
5. Mein Kampf

[Torah613]

I would also add The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the 1917 JPS edition of the Tanakh.

Yochanan

[ShirChadash]

:thumbsup:

[debi b]

:wave: What sources would you recommend?

[Torah613]

the artscroll Tanakh, Your LOR (Local Orthodox Rabbi), etc.

Yochanan

[Lisa0315]

Why is the KJV on there? That is kind of insulting considering the rest of the list.

Lisa

[Torah613]

because the KJV is horrendously translated and has been used to persecute teh Jewish people for centuries.

I grew up in the american south, in the heart of the bible belt. I literally was afraid, dealthly afraid, that anyone would ever find out that I was Jewish, particularly the KJV only folk.

Yochanan

[Lisa0315]

because the KJV is horrendously translated and has been used to persecute teh Jewish people for centuries.

I grew up in the american south, in the heart of the bible belt. I literally was afraid, dealthly afraid, that anyone would ever find out that I was Jewish, particularly the KJV only folk.

Yochanan

Can you be more specific? I am very confused because it is the KJV folks that are Israel's strongest supporters in the USA. I am very sorry for your experience, but I think you may have run into folks who were justifying racism with Scripture. Scripture in of itself is not responsible for that, the people are.

Lisa

[Torah613]

that may be.

However, the point of this list/post was to say what it says; "these are not reliable sources of info on Judaism." Nothing else was insinuated, irregardless of personal experiences.

Notice halph of the sources are not racist/antisemitic sources per se, but just bad sources of info.

Yochanan

[debi b]

the artscroll Tanakh, Your LOR (Local Orthodox Rabbi), etc.

Yochanan

I have an artscroll Tanakh, no LOR in our area....

[ShirChadash]

because the KJV is horrendously translated
this alone is enough.

[Torah613]

Rav Lazer Brody then (www.lazerbrody.net), or askmoses.com, or aish.com

Yochanan

[Torah613]

alternatively you could ask a jew, any frum Jew, and if we don't know the answer we can generally find it.

yochanan

[ShirChadash]

www.jewfaq.org (http://www.jewfaq.org)
www.myjewishlearning.com (http://www.myjewishlearning.com)
www.simpletoremember.com (http://www.simpletoremember.com)

[debi b]

Why is the KJV on there? That is kind of insulting considering the rest of the list.

Lisa

I heard someone say (in the not too distant past) "If the KJV was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!"

I would suggest that the text underneath a translation is inspired - but the translation itself is just that - a translation :) . It benfits much to gain the ability to read the text underneath.

[debi b]

alternatively you could ask a jew, any frum Jew, and if we don't know the answer we can generally find it.

yochanan


Saddly we have Orthodox Rabbi in our state and we met him once. Then we tried to strike up a dialog with him and explaind who we were trying to be upfront. We went out of our way to be respectful. Our e-mail remains unanswered.

[ShirChadash]

this alone is enough.
I realize most chr*tians think that the "OT" of the "Bible" is the same as the Hebrew Tanach, only in English, however this is not at all the case. If you want a really good translation, not authoritative for Jews because only the actual Hebrew is authoritative, but nonetheless a very good and acceptable translation, look here:
http://www.artscroll.com/stonechumash.html

[ChavaK]

Saddly we have Orthodox Rabbi in our state and we met him once. Then we tried to strike up a dialog with him and explaind who we were trying to be upfront. We went out of our way to be respectful. Our e-mail remains unanswered.


To be honest, I'm not sure that an Orthodox rabbi would really
have any interest or see a point to interacting with the Messianic
world.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/pictures/_old/11528.jpg

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/4382/sigbe0.gif

[ChavaK]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/pictures/_old/11528.jpg

I would also add any of the gazillion sites out there that
purportedly give you the "truth" behind the Talmud.
They are universally anti-semitic.

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/4382/sigbe0.gif

[ShirChadash]

I would also add any of the gazillion sites out there that
purportedly give you the "truth" behind the Talmud.
They are universally anti-semitic.
how true

[Lisa0315]

1. David Duke
2. the KJV
3. the Jewish encyclopedia
4. The Aryan Nations website
5. Mein Kampf

Again, how is this list not some kind of biased attack against Fundamentalist Christians? Without which, you would have long ago lost your US support. I really do not understand how you can put the KJV in with the KKK and Nazis. This offends me deeply. I am not being supersensitive here. This just really hurts.

Lisa

[ShirChadash]

1. David Duke
2. the KJV
3. the Jewish encyclopedia
4. The Aryan Nations website
5. Mein Kampf

Again, how is this list not some kind of biased attack against Fundamentalist Christians? Without which, you would have long ago lost your US support. I really do not understand how you can put the KJV in with the KKK and Nazis. This offends me deeply. I am not being supersensitive here. This just really hurts.

Lisa
you are SERIOUSLY joking.

Seriously. Seriously????? Oh my Holy Father.

[ShirChadash]

1. David Duke
2. the KJV
3. the Jewish encyclopedia
4. The Aryan Nations website
5. Mein Kampf
6. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and
7. the 1917 JPS edition of the Tanakh.


Do you know what this is? If he can include in that company a supposedly JEWISH translation (hey, I own one. I no longer use it, as I see why it is ALSO a horrendous translation and not at all worth reading, but I own one and I bought it at the conservative synagogue) I think he can include the KJV in that company. Good grief. The "COMPANY" is not the point, the error of the source IS.

[Qalevra]

Without which, you would have long ago lost your US support.

Is this blackmail? If you are serious about learning about the nature of US support, its effect, and its reception in Israel, feel free to contact me via email (not PM!). In my line of work, I can speak with some authority on this matter.

EDIT - Shir answered the other points better than I.

[Lisa0315]

Outside of the KJV, are 1, 3, or 4 representative of fundamentalist Christians? You neglect to note that the JE was compiled largely by Jews.



Is this blackmail? If you are serious about learning about the nature of US support, its effect, and its reception in Israel, feel free to contact me via email (not PM!). In my line of work, I can speak with some authority on this matter.



Again, note the inclusion of the JE. Sources that are inaccurate about Judaism are simply that. Items 1, 3, and 4 have an overt agenda against Jews, but I'd be hard pressed to say that the JE has such an agenda. Do you think the KJV has such an agenda?

A threat? Good Lord, no!!! This is mind boggling to me that you would even take it that way. I am just pointing out that this translation has led Christians to side with the Israel State, and those who move to more "modern" translations have a movement to cut ties with Israel.

I know the KJV has no such agenda against the Jews. I cannot imagine how anyone could take it that way.

I have asked repeatedly how the translation is wrong in representation of the Jews and I cannot get an answer. How does the KJV depict the Jews in an innaccurate or negative light?

Lisa

[Qalevra]

A threat? Good Lord, no!!! This is mind boggling to me that you would even take it that way.

Don't worry, unless you're a strategic intelligence policy maker, I'm not too worried about taking it as a literal threat.

I am just pointing out that this translation has led Christians to side with the Israel State, and those who move to more "modern" translations have a movement to cut ties with Israel.

Surprisingly, during the Arab-Israeli war and the years leading up to it, support for or emnity against the Jewish state was drawn on political lines, not religious lines. The British supplied, commanded, and even intervened on the side of the Arabs during the war. American support for Israel didn't come full circle until Israel could prove it was a winner through its stunning victory in 1967.

I know the KJV has no such agenda against the Jews. I cannot imagine how anyone could take it that way.

That depends on the perspective one adopts regarding the errors within the KJV. Were they accidental, or intentional to "paint Jesus" into the Jewish scriptures? I personally think it's accidental by way of circular reasoning (i.e. they thought "this passage obviously points to Jesus, so this translation MUST be correct").

I have asked repeatedly how the translation is wrong in representation of the Jews and I cannot get an answer. How does the KJV depict the Jews in an innaccurate or negative light?

Daniel 9, Isaiah 53, Isaiah 7 are a few examples I can think of right off. The KJV depicts the Tanakh inaccurately, and hence the stance of Judaism.

[Lisa0315]

Don't worry, unless you're a strategic intelligence policy maker, I'm not too worried about taking it as a literal threat.



Surprisingly, during the Arab-Israeli war and the years leading up to it, support for or emnity against the Jewish state was drawn on political lines, not religious lines. The British supplied, commanded, and even intervened on the side of the Arabs during the war. American support for Israel didn't come full circle until Israel could prove it was a winner through its stunning victory in 1967.



That depends on the perspective one adopts regarding the errors within the KJV. Were they accidental, or intentional to "paint Jesus" into the Jewish scriptures? I personally think it's accidental by way of circular reasoning (i.e. they thought "this passage obviously points to Jesus, so this translation MUST be correct").



Daniel 9, Isaiah 53, Isaiah 7 are a few examples I can think of right off. The KJV depicts the Tanakh inaccurately, and hence the stance of Judaism.

Oh, because (Jews believe) Isaiah 53 is supposed to be translated as Israel rather than to the Messiah. I see. That makes more sense to me. I thought you were saying that the KJV somehow portrayed the Jews as evil or was anti-Jewish in some way. That is why I was so upset. I just could not comprehend how anyone could get that out of the KJV.

Can I ask you something? Do you know the history of the sign of the cross? Did you know that the ancient Hebrew character of the taw was a cross, and when early Christians started using the taw as their secret sign to avoid persecution, the Sanhedren changed the character to today's form? But, the seal that was used in the Old Testament to seal the remnant is believed to be the taw, a cross. It is the same seal that Christians believe will be used to seal the remnant on the Day of the Lord.

Lisa

[ShirChadash]

Oh, because (Jews believe) Isaiah 53 is supposed to be translated as Israel rather than to the Messiah. I see. That makes more sense to me. I thought you were saying that the KJV somehow portrayed the Jews as evil or was anti-Jewish in some way. That is why I was so upset. I just could not comprehend how anyone could get that out of the KJV. actually, I believe Qal is referencing the specific mistranslations of these passages in the KJV (and other translations) for the purposes of allowing those passages to refer to Jsus, when the same words are correctly translated in other verses, even verses just surrounding the mistranslated verses.


Can I ask you something? Do you know the history of the sign of the cross? Did you know that the ancient Hebrew character of the taw was a cross, and when early Christians started using the taw as their secret sign to avoid persecution, the Sanhedren changed the character to today's form? But, the seal that was used in the Old Testament to seal the remnant is believed to be the taw, a cross. It is the same seal that Christians believe will be used to seal the remnant on the Day of the Lord.

LisaI'll leave that for Qal to answer since you asked him, but as for me, personally, yeah I am very familiar with all manner of xian thought including these notions.

[Qalevra]

Oh, because (Jews believe) Isaiah 53 is supposed to be translated as Israel rather than to the Messiah.

The word משיח (English: anointed/messiah) doesn't exist in Isaiah 53. ;)

Can I ask you something? Do you know the history of the sign of the cross? Did you know that the ancient Hebrew character of the taw was a cross, and when early Christians started using the taw as their secret sign to avoid persecution, the Sanhedren changed the character to today's form?

Neat story, but unfortunately, not very likely. The tav existed as an "x" type letter that when turned 45 degrees could resemble the Christian cross. However, this form fell out of use around the 5th Century BCE. At the time that Jesus supposedly lived, Aramaic was the lingua franca, and the tav in Aramaic looks nothing like a cross. The Phoenician tav COULD still be found on coinage or something along those lines, but its decline wasn't by decree, and its decline predates Jesus by hundreds of years. Its departure from use was the result of the natural ebbs and flows of language, in which the exile to Babylon played a part. What we consider the tav in today's form didn't really come about until the late Middle Ages.

[Lisa0315]

The word משיח (English: anointed/messiah) doesn't exist in Isaiah 53. ;)



Neat story, but unfortunately, not very likely. The tav existed as an "x" type letter that when turned 45 degrees could resemble the Christian cross. However, this form fell out of use around the 5th Century BCE. At the time that Jesus supposedly lived, Aramaic was the lingua franca, and the tav in Aramaic looks nothing like a cross. The Phoenician tav COULD still be found on coinage or something along those lines, but it's decline wasn't by decree, and its decline predates Jesus by hundreds of years. Its departure from use was the result of the natural ebbs and flows of language, in which the exile to Babylon played a part. What we consider the tav in today's form didn't really come about until the late Middle Ages.

Story comes from a Jewish Rabbi with a doctorate in Jewish history.

Lisa

[Qalevra]

Story comes from a Jewish Rabbi with a doctorate in Jewish history.

Lisa

Source?

I learned what I wrote for you at the Ulpan, but to be fair, I will illustrate that my position is academically supported in these books.

Al Kanfei Yonah: Collected Studies of Jonas C. Greenfield on Semitic Philology, Jonas Greenfield
A Grammar of Biblical Aramaic, Franz Rosenthal
The Writing Systems of the World, Florian Coulmas

[Lisa0315]

Source?

To be fair, I will illustrate that my position is academically supported in these books.

Al Kanfei Yonah: Collected Studies of Jonas C. Greenfield on Semitic Philology, Jonas Greenfield
A Grammar of Biblical Aramaic, Franz Rosenthal
The Writing Systems of the World, Florian Coulmas

It was an oral teaching given at the Dead Sea Scroll tour. Give me a second, and I will find the name at least.

Lisa

[Steve Petersen]

3. the Jewish encyclopedia

On what basis?

Quoted in the Wiki article 'Jewish Encyclopedia'


Jenny Mendelsohn, of University of Toronto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Toronto) Libraries, in an online guide to major sources of information about Jews and Judaism says of this work, "Although published in the early 1900s, this was a work highly regarded for its scholarship. Much of the material is still of value to researchers in Jewish History." [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Encyclopedia#cite_note-0) Reform Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism) rabbi Joshua L. Segal calls it, "a remarkable piece of Jewish scholarship" and adds, "For events prior to 1900, it is considered to offer a level of scholarship superior to either of the more recent Jewish Encyclopedias written in English".[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Encyclopedia#cite_note-1)

<LI id=cite_note-0>^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Encyclopedia#cite_ref-0) Jenny Mendelsohn, Academic Guide to Jewish History: Encyclopedias and Biographies (http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/jewishhistory/getItems.cfm/majorCatID=6), University of Toronto Libraries. Last update: August 13, 2006. Accessed October 7, 2006.
^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Encyclopedia#cite_ref-1) Joshua L. Segal, Rabbi's Message: Nov. 2003 - Cheshvan 5764: A Jewish Reference Library at Betenu (http://www.betenu.org/rabbi/nov03.html), Betenu, Volume 21, No. 4: Nov. 2003. Accessed online October 7, 2006

[jaihare]

Can I ask you something? Do you know the history of the sign of the cross? Did you know that the ancient Hebrew character of the taw was a cross, and when early Christians started using the taw as their secret sign to avoid persecution, the Sanhedren changed the character to today's form? But, the seal that was used in the Old Testament to seal the remnant is believed to be the taw, a cross. It is the same seal that Christians believe will be used to seal the remnant on the Day of the Lord.
I guess when conspiracies abound, they truly abound.

The original shape of the Tav was similar to the English capital X. The Tet was the same encircled. It wasn't an up-and-down cross like you think when you are talking about Christianity. However, ALL of the letters of the Hebrew alphabet went through a change -- and it had nothing to do with the Sanhedrin.

The original shape of Shin was like two sharp teeth pointing down. The original shape of Ayin was a circle (much like the modern Samech). ALL of the letters shifted in shape, and it was NOT a reaction to Christianity that caused it.

So, what caused the shift? Before the Jewish people were carried off into Babylonian captivity, they wrote with the Paleo-Hebrew script, identitical to that used in Moab and Phoenicia. This can be seen clearly in Hezekiah's tunnel inscription in Jerusalem. When they were taken into captivity, however, the wise among the Jews were taught to read and write Aramaic, the official language of the Babylonians for commerce (which they received from the Assyrians, who had also used it for the same purpose).

Upon returning from the captivity, the shape of the alphabet was adopted to write Hebrew. All of the letters were converted to the square shape that we now know (well, those of us who know Hebrew, anyway). It was not the decision of the Sanhedrin as the result of contact with Christian claims. It happened about 400 or more years before Jesus under the leadership of Ezra the Scribe and the men of the Great Synod.

Jason

[jaihare]

Neat story, but unfortunately, not very likely. The tav existed as an "x" type letter that when turned 45 degrees could resemble the Christian cross. However, this form fell out of use around the 5th Century BCE. At the time that Jesus supposedly lived, Aramaic was the lingua franca, and the tav in Aramaic looks nothing like a cross. The Phoenician tav COULD still be found on coinage or something along those lines, but its decline wasn't by decree, and its decline predates Jesus by hundreds of years. Its departure from use was the result of the natural ebbs and flows of language, in which the exile to Babylon played a part. What we consider the tav in today's form didn't really come about until the late Middle Ages.
Definitely. Lisa doesn't seem to realize that some of us can actually read the Phoenician/Paleo-Hebrew alphabet and have studied inscriptional Hebrew and Aramaic pre-Babylonian Exile. She relies on whatever things she can get her hands on, but she doesn't have access to the actual materials herself.

Personally, I've translated the Hezekiah Tunnel Inscription as well as the first half of the Mesha Stele Inscription. I'm quite familiar with the shape of pre-Babylonian Hebrew writings and how Hebrew came to be written thereafter. I wonder if Lisa has ever read the text of the Dead Sea Scrolls (which were, by most accounts) written before issues relating to Jesus could have come before the Sanhedrin from actual facsimile reproductions of the scrolls themselves? I wonder how familiar she is with the shapes and handwriting used in the scrolls? It's just a ridiculous claim.

Jason

[ContraMundum]

I'm Jewish and I've never been afraid of people with King James Bibles. I'm more afraid of people with Korans.

...but then again, I'm not really afraid of anyone. This isn't the Middle Ages or Nazi Germany, and in the west, many other minorities are far more persecuted than Jews.

IMHO, if a one is a Jew who is suffering persecution- go to Israel. We have an Air Force there to end the matter and keep you safe. :)

[ContraMundum]

I have an artscroll Tanakh,

The Artscroll Tanakh is over rated.

The text it's based on is over rated too.. (*crack*......as he opens cans of worms)

Come to think of it...the KJV is over rated too. But I don't read any "one" translation anyway. I'm not the type of person that just accepts things that are popular because others say they are accurate. I'm not a "true believer" in any one translation, whether it be KJV or Artscroll. All translations are open to bias.

[ContraMundum]

The original shape of the Tav was similar to the English capital X.

Like the St Andrew's Cross.:)

Good points, Jason, BTW.

Anyway, conspiracy theories about the Tav and the Sign of the Cross are silly and clearly without basis in fact. The Sign of the Cross doesn't need a "Jewish root" to be important or genuinely Christian. The Cross was not a Jewish invention. It was a Roman execution tool. Christians are to have the Sign of the Cross to remember that they are crucified with The Messiah, and that He was put to death on their behalf. Early Christians used the Sign of the Cross as a way of identifying themselves in the face of relentless persecution from the followers of other religions. One early Gentile Christian wrote: "This was given to us as a sign on our forehead, just as the circumcision was given to Israel: for by it we believers are separated and distinguished from unbelievers." St. John of Damascus


Enjoy your day.

[Torah613]

The Artscroll Tanakh is over rated.

The text it's based on is over rated too.. (*crack*......as he opens cans of worms)

Come to think of it...the KJV is over rated too. But I don't read any "one" translation anyway. I'm not the type of person that just accepts things that are popular because others say they are accurate. I'm not a "true believer" in any one translation, whether it be KJV or Artscroll. All translations are open to bias.

Absouletely. All the translations in the world don't amount to a hill of beans. Only the original Hebrew is authoritative.

Yochanan

[ContraMundum]

Absouletely. All the translations in the world don't amount to a hill of beans. Only the original Hebrew is authoritative.

What's the "original" Hebrew text? Surely you don't mean the Masoretic text, right?

[Torah613]

What's the "original" Hebrew text? Surely you don't mean the Masoretic text, right?

I mean the text that was given to Am Yisrail through Moshe Rabeinu by HaShem on Mt. Sinai.

Yochanan

[Steve Petersen]

I mean the text that was given to Am Yisrail through Moshe Rabeinu by HaShem on Mt. Sinai.

Yochanan

What museum can I find that in?

[Torah613]

B"H we have been given the Torah.

[ContraMundum]

B"H we have been given the Torah.

I don't think we disagree with that at all!

[kivi]

1. David Duke
2. the KJV
3. the Jewish encyclopedia
4. The Aryan Nations website
5. Mein Kampf

kivi says: You also have to add the New and Old Testaments plus any Christian document that uses these two sources in its references.

[kivi]

Can you be more specific? I am very confused because it is the KJV folks that are Israel's strongest supporters in the USA. I am very sorry for your experience, but I think you may have run into folks who were justifying racism with Scripture. Scripture in of itself is not responsible for that, the people are.

Lisa

kivi says: It is my experience that they support Israeli not because they Love Jews and Judaism, but because they think that the State of Israel will play some sort of role in their end-of-the-world senerios: see the Left Behind series as one of numerous examples. In fact, all of these end-of-the-world senerios see the triumph of Christianity over Judaism in the most vicious and evil manner. \

Any text that people use consistantly, over time and space and nationality and sex and sect to teach hatred must be suspect as the origin of that hatred. That is simple historic logic.

[kivi]

Saddly we have Orthodox Rabbi in our state and we met him once. Then we tried to strike up a dialog with him and explaind who we were trying to be upfront. We went out of our way to be respectful. Our e-mail remains unanswered.

kivi says: For good historic and personal reasons, most Jews to not trust Christians about matters of religion. It is good policy not to engage Christians, who you do not have a close positive personal relations with, over matters of religion. I have no idea what you asked or what you wrote, what state or location or who the Rabbi was/is. If you care to inquire further about the contents and method of your attempted contact, I would be happy to be of assistance.

[kivi]

kivi says: For starters: The entire story about 'healing on the Shabbas' is inaccurate. The false translations of Isaiah in the Old Testament. The association of Jews with the spawn of the Devil. The KJV is false about the Jews from beginning to end.


A threat? Good Lord, no!!! This is mind boggling to me that you would even take it that way. I am just pointing out that this translation has led Christians to side with the Israel State, and those who move to more "modern" translations have a movement to cut ties with Israel.

I know the KJV has no such agenda against the Jews. I cannot imagine how anyone could take it that way.

I have asked repeatedly how the translation is wrong in representation of the Jews and I cannot get an answer. How does the KJV depict the Jews in an innaccurate or negative light?

Lisa

[kivi]

Story comes from a Jewish Rabbi with a doctorate in Jewish history.

Lisa

kivi says: That is not a reference. That is hiding the reference. You got a name and a source that we can track down?

[kivi]

I'm Jewish and I've never been afraid of people with King James Bibles. I'm more afraid of people with Korans.

...but then again, I'm not really afraid of anyone. This isn't the Middle Ages or Nazi Germany, and in the west, many other minorities are far more persecuted than Jews.

IMHO, if a one is a Jew who is suffering persecution- go to Israel. We have an Air Force there to end the matter and keep you safe. :)

kivi say: In 1929, Berlin was called the New Jerusalem because of the vibrant Jewish culture there. Germany had Jewish ministers in the government.

[Torah613]

good point Kivi.

Of course, if one is a religous Jew they should make aliyah anyways as there are Mitzvoth that can only be fulfilled there,but that is the subject of a different thread.

Yochanan

[visionary]

On what basis?

Quoted in the Wiki article 'Jewish Encyclopedia'


Jenny Mendelsohn, of University of Toronto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Toronto) Libraries, in an online guide to major sources of information about Jews and Judaism says of this work, "Although published in the early 1900s, this was a work highly regarded for its scholarship. Much of the material is still of value to researchers in Jewish History." [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Encyclopedia#cite_note-0) Reform Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism) rabbi Joshua L. Segal calls it, "a remarkable piece of Jewish scholarship" and adds, "For events prior to 1900, it is considered to offer a level of scholarship superior to either of the more recent Jewish Encyclopedias written in English".[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Encyclopedia#cite_note-1)

<LI id=cite_note-0>^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Encyclopedia#cite_ref-0) Jenny Mendelsohn, Academic Guide to Jewish History: Encyclopedias and Biographies (http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/jewishhistory/getItems.cfm/majorCatID=6), University of Toronto Libraries. Last update: August 13, 2006. Accessed October 7, 2006.
^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Encyclopedia#cite_ref-1) Joshua L. Segal, Rabbi's Message: Nov. 2003 - Cheshvan 5764: A Jewish Reference Library at Betenu (http://www.betenu.org/rabbi/nov03.html), Betenu, Volume 21, No. 4: Nov. 2003. Accessed online October 7, 2006
I noticed they avoided commenting on this.

[Torah613]

We avoided commenting on this, because it has already been explained elsewhere.

Yochanan

[visionary]

not in this thread

[Torah613]

no, but to the same poster.

look. a group of people define what is a good source of information about themselves. I would not presume to define good sources of information about chr*stian beliefs. So, when Orthodox Jews, people who really live Judaism, tell you that the JE is not a good source of info about Judaism then logic dictates that you should believe them.

For the technical reasons. The JE is actually an exercise in poor scholarship when it comes to 2nd temple period information. It uses the chr*stian scriptures as its primary source. This would be like looking to the sutras to find a listing of beliefs and practices of hinduism. As for other articles in the JE, well their info is suspect to say the least. The JE was a collaborative effort financed to provide rough basics to people horrendously uninformed on Jewish matters. So they got a cross section of Rabbis who tried desperately not to offend each others movements (however it was very heavy on reform and conservative) but in the end, basically ended up tossing frumality out the window to accomplish this.

Yochanan

[ContraMundum]

no, but to the same poster.

look. a group of people define what is a good source of information about themselves. I would not presume to define good sources of information about chr*stian beliefs. So, when Orthodox Jews, people who really live Judaism, tell you that the JE is not a good source of info about Judaism then logic dictates that you should believe them.

But, of course, that would depend on which group of Jews you talk to. There's myriads of opinions amongst the orthodox as to who is living right and who isn't. Judaism is far from monolithic.

For the technical reasons. The JE is actually an exercise in poor scholarship when it comes to 2nd temple period information. It uses the chr*stian scriptures as its primary source. This would be like looking to the sutras to find a listing of beliefs and practices of hinduism. As for other articles in the JE, well their info is suspect to say the least. The JE was a collaborative effort financed to provide rough basics to people horrendously uninformed on Jewish matters. So they got a cross section of Rabbis who tried desperately not to offend each others movements (however it was very heavy on reform and conservative) but in the end, basically ended up tossing frumality out the window to accomplish this.

Yochanan

I think that the JE could be seen as being honest enough to acknowledge the very positive contribution to scholarship and theology that Christianity has given over the years.

[Steve Petersen]

The late David Flusser and Mark Nanos are among the emerging groups of Jewish scholars who see the NT as a valuable source of information on late Second Temple Judaism. BTW, Flusser was Orthodox Jewish.

[ContraMundum]

The late David Flusser and Mark Nanos are among the emerging groups of Jewish scholars who see the NT as a valuable source of information on late Second Temple Judaism. BTW, Flusser was Orthodox Jewish.

Thank you Steve, for bringing some light to this. You know your stuff.

[Steve Petersen]

Thank you Steve, for bringing some light to this. You know your stuff.

Ditto, my man.:thumbsup:

[kivi]

I noticed they avoided commenting on this.

kii says: I didn't avoid it. Considering the current level of Jewish scholarship, I would only use the Jewsh Encylopedia on a case by case basis. And I would never recommend it to a person new to Judaism as a primary source. Now, you can belive me or not. That's your problem. This thread was started to inform and help our Christian members so that they could get the real 'skinny' on primary sources for Judaism. It is one of the BIG problems that Christian have is that they do not know the primary sources. So they use what is convenient on the Net or a Christian source, wandering around blind and deaf in rooms full of incredible sights and wonderous sounds. We never ask any one to agree with us, but if you do disagree with us, at least be correct/right about what you are disagreeing with.

[Torah613]

Kivi pretty much sussed it up in a much more eloquent way than I could.

Yochanan

[kivi]

Ditto, my man.:thumbsup:

kivi says: I just do not trust the New Testament, either scholastically or spiritually. I think it is impossible to retrieve the historic Jesus Christ. Why should we believe that Jesus' 'nice' words about Judaism are any more accurate than his 'hateful' words. I can see Flusser's gentle introduction to Christianity and Christians, especially the Bohemeian Brethern, is as 'good' as possible. Giving a much more favorable outlook than the one that many of us have had. And I can see his efforts to see Jesus within the context of the remarkable events of 100 BCE to 100 CE. I just don't see how he can decide which quote is authentic and which one is not. Especially since, within Christianity, the 'proof' of Jesus Christ's authenticity is the crucifiction, resurrection and accension, which Judaism, by definition, must reject to remain Judaism. I don't think it is possible to find the historic Jesus Christ within the New Testament. Since the New Testament was written by gentiles, edited and re-edited by gentiles and canonized by gentiles, how can they be trusted to keep the 'authentic' Jesus Christ 'pure'? It can't be done. Flusser brought a great intellect and kind and gentile intentions to a task that was inappropriate and impossible to achieve.

[ContraMundum]

kii says: I didn't avoid it. Considering the current level of Jewish scholarship, I would only use the Jewsh Encylopedia on a case by case basis. And I would never recommend it to a person new to Judaism as a primary source. Now, you can belive me or not. That's your problem. This thread was started to inform and help our Christian members so that they could get the real 'skinny' on primary sources for Judaism. It is one of the BIG problems that Christian have is that they do not know the primary sources. So they use what is convenient on the Net or a Christian source, wandering around blind and deaf in rooms full of incredible sights and wonderous sounds. We never ask any one to agree with us, but if you do disagree with us, at least be correct/right about what you are disagreeing with.

I actually agree with this.

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: I just do not trust the New Testament, either scholastically or spiritually. I think it is impossible to retrieve the historic Jesus Christ. Why should we believe that Jesus' 'nice' words about Judaism are any more accurate than his 'hateful' words. I can see Flusser's gentle introduction to Christianity and Christians, especially the Bohemeian Brethern, is as 'good' as possible. Giving a much more favorable outlook than the one that many of us have had. And I can see his efforts to see Jesus within the context of the remarkable events of 100 BCE to 100 CE. I just don't see how he can decide which quote is authentic and which one is not. Especially since, within Christianity, the 'proof' of Jesus Christ's authenticity is the crucifiction, resurrection and accension, which Judaism, by definition, must reject to remain Judaism. I don't think it is possible to find the historic Jesus Christ within the New Testament. Since the New Testament was written by gentiles, edited and re-edited by gentiles and canonized by gentiles, how can they be trusted to keep the 'authentic' Jesus Christ 'pure'? It can't be done. Flusser brought a great intellect and kind and gentile intentions to a task that was inappropriate and impossible to achieve.

If only one would apply those same sets of scales and balances to the Tanach! Is it possible to find the historic Moses, Joshua, Job, Noah, Abraham, Jonah, Methusela, Shem or whoever in the Torah using that approach? No, of course not. Can we solve all the textual variations in the Tanach? No, we cannot.

The great false weapon, the toothless tiger of the anti-missionaries is the assumption that the Tanach is self-authenticating and untouchable and that conversely the NT is a text open to scrutiny, flawed and unverifyable. An honest man would apply the same rules of scrutiny to both and find both equally set on the same foundation with the same claims and problems.

Check out this article for more information! (http://www.realmessiah.com/unequal.htm)

[kivi]

I actually agree with this.

kivi says: I think the thing I admire the most is your committment to the truth as you see it with your desire to be available to those who do not agree with you. You can be a GOM, but heck, that's a virtue, not being willing to put up with the narrow-minded and ignorant. I can tolerate a stupid person, its not their fault, but an ignorant one? Life is just too too short.

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: I think the thing I admire the most is your committment to the truth as you see it with your desire to be available to those who do not agree with you. You can be a GOM, but heck, that's a virtue, not being willing to put up with the narrow-minded and ignorant. I can tolerate a stupid person, its not their fault, but an ignorant one? Life is just too too short.

Thanks and ditto!

[kivi]

If only one would apply those same sets of scales and balances to the Tanach! Is it possible to find the historic Moses, Joshua, Job, Noah, Abraham, Jonah, Methusela, Shem or whoever in the Torah using that approach? No, of course not. Can we solve all the textual variations in the Tanach? No, we cannot.

The great false weapon, the toothless tiger of the anti-missionaries is the assumption that the Tanach is self-authenticating and untouchable and that conversely the NT is a text open to scrutiny, flawed and unverifyable. An honest man would apply the same rules of scrutiny to both and find both equally set on the same foundation with the same claims and problems.

Check out this article for more information! (http://www.realmessiah.com/unequal.htm)

kivi says: The REAL PROBLEM is the Christian Missionaries. Who would care if Christianity were wrong and the New Testament was the ravings of a mad man if Christian Missionaries were not out there, by the 1000s and 1000s, trying to convert Jews? Do you or any one would think we would give a second to combating an enemy that didn't exist? Do you think I would be here spending my time trying to defend Judaism. Of course not!! It is the Christian Missionary who by his/her very existance, creates the war. Remove the invaders and the invasion stops; stop the invasion and the war stops. Stop the war, and who cares who is right or wrong. We don't care of Christianity is wrong. Go be wrong. See any Jewish missionaries out to convert the Hindus or the Shintos? Didn't think so. :P And if we aren't out there trying to convert them, why do you think we would be out there trying to convert Christians? Maybe 'ego' on the Christian part?:amen:

And so what if we were wrong? Let us wallow in our own misery and wrongness. Who would care except the Christian Missionaries who are out there, trying to prove we are wrong. If we are wrong, leave us alone. If we are wrong with G-d, that is our problem. We did not ask Christian Missionaries to come into our house to tell us how to run it. If its our problem, let us solve it.

Finally, on the article you linked. Such a whinning and kevetching. The very premise of the article is an insult. Who gave him permission to try to use our Torah. The problem he has and all Christian Missionaries have is that the playing field is not level. Tough. An anti missionary can say most anything about the Old and New Testament, it isn't our scriptures. We have no investment in them. We can slash and tear all we want and never hurt a hair on our own head. We are only bonded by the limits of getting our noses punched. On the other hand, for as much as the Missionary hates it, he/she must use the Old Testament as the legitimizer for the New. Without Judaism, Christianity can not stand on its own. It has no independent authenticity except by what it can steal from Judaism. So, the Christian Missionary must go to a Old Testament verse, like 'equal weights and measures', create an arguement out of it and find some way to twist it so that it fits the Christian Missionary message. Some Missionaries are better at this than others, but all must do it. This is a [B]much much more difficult task than the anti missionary has. So, the Missionary tries to find a way to even the playing field. The article you linked is just another unsuccessful attempt. The playing field can not be tilted for the benefit of the Christian Missionary. While the Missionary must acknowledge a Judeo-Christain tradition, the Jewish anti missionary only has to acknowledge a Torah Tradition. I luv it :clap:whan the anti missionary gets a lift from the structure of Christianity, itself.

[SGM4HIM]

"Without Judaism, Christianity can not stand on its own"

Very true.

"Such a whinning and kevetching. The very premise of the article is an insult. Who gave him permission to try to use our Torah." He's Jewish too!:)

[ContraMundum]

k

Finally, on the article you linked. Such a whinning and kevetching. The very premise of the article is an insult. Who gave him permission to try to use our Torah.

God gave him permission- he's not only a Jew but he's got a doctorate in Hebrew and ancient Near Eastern languages. He's hammered a few anti-misisonaries in debates as well.

He's right on the money in that article. I've seen posters here do the same thing.

[Tishri1]

We did not ask Christian Missionaries to come into our house to tell us how to run it.
Kivi:confused: uhhhh darling your in our house:hug:

:hug::hug:

[FaithfulWife]

1. David Duke
2. the KJV
3. the Jewish encyclopedia
4. The Aryan Nations website
5. Mein Kampf

Again, how is this list not some kind of biased attack against Fundamentalist Christians? Without which, you would have long ago lost your US support. I really do not understand how you can put the KJV in with the KKK and Nazis. This offends me deeply. I am not being supersensitive here. This just really hurts.

Lisa

Lisa~

I realize this is an old post and the thread has already gone on to other topics, but I want to share something with you (and the group) that I think will help explain this. With one foot in Judaism and one foot in Christianity, I think I can somewhat "translate" so that you'll see what is truly being said.

I'll try to be somewhat brief. I grew up with a mentally ill mom and an alcoholic dad. I was physically abused until I moved out to go to college. And as a kid my parents were what I call "christian by default" meaning we are in the U.S. and it's a christian nation (lower case). I was raised in a Lutheran church in that tradition. To make a long story short, I don't believe my parents knew ANYTHING about Jews or Judaism and they surely did not teach me anything. I did not even have an idea about what questions to ask, much less have answers that were reliable!

I went to college and began my search for God. From there I met the man who was to be my first husband, and he was Jewish. At first I thought "Hmmm..." and then I thought I would keep an open mind and just learn. I studied for many years and came to be where I am now. But as I studied and got to know actual Jewish people--I came to see that in much the same way that christians (lower case) have NO IDEA about Judaism, Jewish people have NO IDEA about christians. And I realize I'm speaking in generalities but let me give you an example and maybe you'll understand what I mean.

One tiny example that I noticed amongst my Jewish friends was that they didn't really understand the difference between catholics and christians. In an odd way it was somewhat all lumped together into one conglomeration of "What Christians Believe" and a lot of the theology was more like gossip than true, and of course there were exceptions but for the most part facts weren't checked. And by the way, I don't mean some of the subtleties of different theologies of different denominations--I mean general overall catholic, "be baptized and be saved" christians, and "I am a sinner and Christ died for me" believers.

Likewise, christians do not understand Judaism at all, most have no clue there are orthodox and conservative and reformed Jews, and most have NO IDEA about Passover, Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur. Things any Jew is raised with since the beginning of their lives and consider to be "obvious" are completely unknown to christians. Now here is my example that I'm hoping will help clarify this for both christian friends who were hurt by having the KJV included in the list...and my Jewish friends who made the list in the first place.

When I first met the man who would be my first husband, my mom is not the best example of a christian person but she knew of the Bible and that there were Jews mentioned in the Old Testament. So she proceeded to pull out her KJV and look at OT to get her version of what a Jewish person was. Hmmmm...she saw verses about casting out lepers as unclean, keeping concubines, and stoning women. Then she proceeded to send me ALL THOSE KJV VERSES and warn me that "...this is what Jews are like! Don't get involved with one!" :eek:

THIS is why the KJV was added to the list!!! This very reason! At the time when the laws were handed down, most of the ancestors of "christians" were still either pagan or barbarians and they have obviously changed over the centuries. Would it not be logical to assume that those who lived the Old Testament and received the laws have studied it more and also changed over the centuries? Of course! Yet here in our modern times, some KJV-christians will use a poor translation to say "..that's what Jews do now"! Just as some Jews know nothing about christians and assume that a Christian (capital C=Christ-believer) would use incense and Latin in their service every Sunday or won't eat meat on Fridays.

What I'm trying to say is this: I do have a foot on both sides and including the KJV in the list is reasonable if you understand why it's there. It's not meant as an insult. I think it might be more or most accurate to say "An English translation of the Hebrew Old Testament" because the Revised Standard Version, American Standard Version, The Way are also all bad translations--and some are just PARAPHRASES! They shouldn't be used as a reliable source for learning about Judaism or what Judaism is like now...any more than a translation of an original Gaelic pagan document should be used as a reliable source for learning about Christianity or what Christianity is like now.

Love you all--we BOTH do the same thing to each other! When a human being translates the Word of HaShem (Tanach and Brit Hadasha) from the original language to any other language, it loses something. The original is what it is for a reason and should be studied in it's original form as much as possible. STUDY Hebrew and Greek if you must! But humans have translated it into the language of "the common man" so that the common people have some access to the Word and even in it's imperfection HaShem still uses it to do His mighty work!




~Faithful

[Steve Petersen]

Most of the Jews on this forum have converted from Christianity.

[FaithfulWife]

kivi says: I didn't avoid it. Considering the current level of Jewish scholarship, I would only use the Jewsh Encylopedia on a case by case basis. And I would never recommend it to a person new to Judaism as a primary source. Now, you can belive me or not. That's your problem. This thread was started to inform and help our Christian members so that they could get the real 'skinny' on primary sources for Judaism. It is one of the BIG problems that Christian have is that they do not know the primary sources. So they use what is convenient on the Net or a Christian source, wandering around blind and deaf in rooms full of incredible sights and wonderous sounds. We never ask any one to agree with us, but if you do disagree with us, at least be correct/right about what you are disagreeing with.

Kivi~

I wanted to let you know that I quietly read your posts and find that for the most part what you write makes sense to me and is logical in its form and presentation from a Jewish point of view speaking to some of our less-informed Christian friends. I appreciate your patience in gently teaching (usually) ;) However, will you please notice what I wrote above? I completely agree that quite often--at least in my experience--christians do not seek out good, reliable sources for their ideas about Jews or Judaism. Part of that I think is not malice so much as just being uninformed...and you know if it's on the Web, it's TRUE! ^_^

Likewise though I have faced the same exact situation from Jewish people regarding christianity. As a funny example, I think some Jewish people may think that christian believe the DaVinci Code is true! :P ^_^ My point is that if I were to ask you...well you are well-informed, well-educated and actually have a christian friend or two whom you know...could you get the real skinny on a certain denominations theologoy and find solid primary sources about christianity? [See what I mean? Maybe YOU could because you are studied, but perhaps not so much for some other Jewish people. ;) ]

So I suggest that we share with each other! I suggest that rather than slinging things around and having theology wars that we maybe start a Reference Thread!

"Good Primary Sources that We Trust"

I would suggest that orthodox Jews add to their primary sources, conservative to theirs, etc. (and to some degree some folks are more savy than others and may personally disagree but know a great source for reformed for example). Likewise I would suggest that a Messianic person add to Messianic primary sources. Finally I would suggest that Christians add to their denomination--and we will NEVER be able to include all the denominations all in one list or thread, but we could maybe do it like this :

A good primary source for Calvinism is "Calvin's Institutes" by John Calvin!
A good primary source for more modern Calvinist theology is any book written by Gordon Clark.
A good primary source on the web for current Calvinist theology is "www.trinityfoundation.org"

(BTW--I got this list from my current dear hubby. Can you guess his denomination?)

This is my thought and request--what do you think?



~Faithful

[Lulav]

kivi says: It is my experience that they support Israeli not because they Love Jews and Judaism, but because they think that the State of Israel will play some sort of role in their end-of-the-world senerios: see the Left Behind series as one of numerous examples. In fact, all of these end-of-the-world senerios see the triumph of Christianity over Judaism in the most vicious and evil manner. \

Any text that people use consistantly, over time and space and nationality and sex and sect to teach hatred must be suspect as the origin of that hatred. That is simple historic logic.So because someone reads and interprets a document wrong that makes it wrong? There is a word for that kind of logic, I just can't think of it right now. ........

kivi says: For starters: The entire story about 'healing on the Shabbas' is inaccurate. The false translations of Isaiah in the Old Testament. The association of Jews with the spawn of the Devil. The KJV is false about the Jews from beginning to end. From beginning to end. But only about Jews, who are the subject of the book, so you are saying the whole KJT is false??
What story about healing on the Sabbath are you talking about? I don't recall anything in the Torah ................

I realize it's hard for some to not be able to bear the truth, because it hurts, cuts deep, but I believe my Messiah when he said: I know your afflictions and your poverty--yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. So there had to be some in that day, and there are still today, because we believers still suffer affliction, from those who do not believe. I guess it comes down to who is authorative enough to determine who really is a Jew?


kii says: I didn't avoid it. Considering the current level of Jewish scholarship, I would only use the Jewsh Encylopedia on a case by case basis. And I would never recommend it to a person new to Judaism as a primary source. Now, you can belive me or not. That's your problem. This thread was started to inform and help our Christian members so that they could get the real 'skinny' on primary sources for Judaism. It is one of the BIG problems that Christian have is that they do not know the primary sources. So they use what is convenient on the Net or a Christian source, wandering around blind and deaf in rooms full of incredible sights and wonderous sounds. We never ask any one to agree with us, but if you do disagree with us, at least be correct/right about what you are disagreeing with. I would never use any bible to define what Judaism is. ?the problem is that many poor ignorant Christians think that the kind of Jew their Savior was back, two thousand years ago can been seen in anyone practicing Judaism today, but it just ain't so.

kivi says: I just do not trust the New Testament, either scholastically or spiritually. I think it is impossible to retrieve the historic Jesus Christ. Why should we believe that Jesus' 'nice' words about Judaism are any more accurate than his 'hateful' words. I can see Flusser's gentle introduction to Christianity and Christians, especially the Bohemeian Brethern, is as 'good' as possible. Giving a much more favorable outlook than the one that many of us have had. And I can see his efforts to see Jesus within the context of the remarkable events of 100 BCE to 100 CE. I just don't see how he can decide which quote is authentic and which one is not. Especially since, within Christianity, the 'proof' of Jesus Christ's authenticity is the crucifiction, resurrection and accension, which Judaism, by definition, must reject to remain Judaism. I don't think it is possible to find the historic Jesus Christ within the New Testament. Since the New Testament was written by gentiles, edited and re-edited by gentiles and canonized by gentiles, how can they be trusted to keep the 'authentic' Jesus Christ 'pure'? It can't be done. Flusser brought a great intellect and kind and gentile intentions to a task that was inappropriate and impossible to achieve. who would expect someone that doesn't believe in Messiah to trust a book containing his words? :D

'Nice', 'hateful', that is in the mind of the human, what should matter is not if they are nice or hateful, but if they are the truth, and just as those didn't want to accept him for who he was, it wasn't because his words were hateful, but because they were TRUTH! And anyone that is not truly following G-ds word, does not want to hear that he is doing wrong. His words were a line drawn in the sand. Believe them and turn from your sin and return to G-d or don't accept them because you are too full of pride and a hypocrite.

Tell me, is it what G-d requires you to give one sprig out of your ten sprigs of mint to the temple, and then let your parents starve? this is not the G-d and Father of Yeshua and it's not mine. Following a mitzvah of something so inconsequential as giving a tenth of a food flavoring, or stomach easer, over caring for your parents or widows?

G-d is concerned with the heart, always has been, yet many think that the outward appearance is what counts, but that only gives place in this world but not the world to come.


kivi says: The REAL PROBLEM is the Christian Missionaries. Who would care if Christianity were wrong and the New Testament was the ravings of a mad man if Christian Missionaries were not out there, by the 1000s and 1000s, trying to convert Jews? Do you or any one would think we would give a second to combating an enemy that didn't exist? Do you think I would be here spending my time trying to defend Judaism. Of course not!! It is the Christian Missionary who by his/her very existance, creates the war. Remove the invaders and the invasion stops; stop the invasion and the war stops. Stop the war, and who cares who is right or wrong. We don't care of Christianity is wrong. Go be wrong. See any Jewish missionaries out to convert the Hindus or the Shintos? Didn't think so. :P And if we aren't out there trying to convert them, why do you think we would be out there trying to convert Christians? Maybe 'ego' on the Christian part?:amen:

And so what if we were wrong? Let us wallow in our own misery and wrongness. Who would care except the Christian Missionaries who are out there, trying to prove we are wrong. If we are wrong, leave us alone. If we are wrong with G-d, that is our problem. We did not ask Christian Missionaries to come into our house to tell us how to run it. If its our problem, let us solve it.

Finally, on the article you linked. Such a whinning and kevetching. The very premise of the article is an insult. Who gave him permission to try to use our Torah. The problem he has and all Christian Missionaries have is that the playing field is not level. Tough. An anti missionary can say most anything about the Old and New Testament, it isn't our scriptures. We have no investment in them. We can slash and tear all we want and never hurt a hair on our own head. We are only bonded by the limits of getting our noses punched. On the other hand, for as much as the Missionary hates it, he/she must use the Old Testament as the legitimizer for the New. Without Judaism, Christianity can not stand on its own. It has no independent authenticity except by what it can steal from Judaism. So, the Christian Missionary must go to a Old Testament verse, like 'equal weights and measures', create an arguement out of it and find some way to twist it so that it fits the Christian Missionary message. Some Missionaries are better at this than others, but all must do it. This is a much much more difficult task than the anti missionary has. So, the Missionary tries to find a way to even the playing field. The article you linked is just another unsuccessful attempt. The playing field can not be tilted for the benefit of the Christian Missionary. While the Missionary must acknowledge a Judeo-Christain tradition, the Jewish anti missionary only has to acknowledge a Torah Tradition. I luv it :clap:whan the anti missionary gets a lift from the structure of Christianity, itself. who are these 1000's and 1000's of Christians out trying to convert Jews? This is news to me? :scratch:

I know one thing, there shouldn't be any out there even sharing Messiah with those who are false Jews.

It sounds quite overyly dramatic to say that Christian missionaries are out to prove you wrong. If that truly is the case and their reason for missionizing, then they aren't true believers or followers of Messiah Yeshua and you should avoid them.

And things like this:

Who gave him permission to try to use our Torah. There is no copyright on the Torah and secondly if you love it so much, then why don't you obey it? Instead you go by a group of writings by man, not G-d inspired that tell you how to interpret G-d.

these kinds of words right here show you don't honor the Torah, nor it's most important mitzvot.

Who gave him permission to try to use our Torah. The problem he has and all Christian Missionaries have is that the playing field is not level. Tough. An anti missionary can say most anything about the Old and New Testament, it isn't our scriptures. We have no investment in them. We can slash and tear all we want and never hurt a hair on our own head.Loving and honoring G-d and loving and respecting your fellow man is what all Torah boils down to. But these words show you do neither.

What you don't understand and many do not. Getting knowledge of who Messiah Yeshua is, has nothing to do with who can make the best showing of this truth with the most or best scriptures. He is not proven for belief, through scriptures, so no man can boast. The scriptures are there as a witness against those who don't heel the calling of Abba himself.

"I have shown you O man what is good"

Yeshua even told his own talmidim that the knowledge and acknowledgment of who he was did not come from anywhere by from HaShems spirit revealing it to him. The scriptures only bear witness to it, they confirm it. As well it is known there is a plain meaning and a hidden meaning, and man cannot unlock it, despite what the Kabbalists tell you. Instead it has to be opened to us by G-d himself.

Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away,[B] wondering to himself what had happened. 13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.

17 He asked them, "What are you discussing together as you walk along?" They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, "Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?" 19 "What things?" he asked. "About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn't find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see." 25 He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!

26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?"


27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he expounded to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.


See, even they, his own followers didn't understand until he told them. The truth of who he is and what was written of him had to be explained by him, as he was the one who gave it to be written of him.



( note) something is wrong with the quote feature

[Lulav]

Most of the Jews on this forum have converted from Christianity.

Oh good, the quote feature is working again! :)

Yes, I agree, and they make the best anti-missionary's and Messianic bashers, don't you think? :)

I wonder if anyone has any data on anti-missionaries as to the % that used to claims to be Christians ( born again believers and those born into Christian denoms)

[Torah613]

Oh good, the quote feature is working again! :)

Yes, I agree, and they make the best anti-missionary's and Messianic bashers, don't you think? :)

I wonder if anyone has any data on anti-missionaries as to the % that used to claims to be Christians ( born again believers and those born into Christian denoms)

I am not a convert from chr*Stianity. I used to attend chr*stian churches to be sure, but I never once believed it.

ChavaK has never practiced another religion from Judaism.

TheRabbi was the same way.

there are a few here and there that are converts from chr*stianity, but generally speaking we are simply Jews. Even the converts, are simply Jews.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

no Bes Din would convert someone who displayed hatred towards members of their former religion. Actually no Bes Din would convert someone who dwelled very much on their former religion at all.

Yochanan

[kivi]

God gave him permission- he's not only a Jew but he's got a doctorate in Hebrew and ancient Near Eastern languages. He's hammered a few anti-misisonaries in debates as well.

He's right on the money in that article. I've seen posters here do the same thing.

kivi says: He's a sniveling whinner. I would imagaine [based on the resume you gave] he is better than most at the twisting game, but he still has the problem that Judaism, as a whole, continues to, rightly, reject the the Christian method and the Christian message. He 'hammered'? Get real. There is no 'hammering'. The very idea of 'hammering' should go against what Christainity claims it stands for. Anyone who 'hammers' and claims to be a Christian has got a problem with their own spiritual development.

[kivi]

Kivi:confused: uhhhh darling your in our house:hug:

:hug::hug:

kivi says: And I play by your rules or I can't be here. Right? CF would kick me out, as it should. Lets have the Missionaries play by our rules when they are in our house> Won't you say that was fair? But that's not going to happen, now is it????? >So, let me start a anti missionary sub forum, go into all of the denomination sub forums and start ringing door bells and spaming emails, let me recruit a whole bunch of fellow anti missionaries and start a Noachite sub forum and go to all of the theology sub forums and start forcing debates. How about a sub forum of ex-Christians still using some Christian rituals as cover to push Noachite philosophy like 'Christians for Noach' or 'The 7 Path Way of Christianity' or 'You are a ONLY Real Christian when you follow the Torah of Noach'. But that's not going to happen, either. So, when I'm in your house, I'll play by your rules, and when the Missionaries are in our house, they won't play by our rules. Now, that's fair.

[kivi]

kivi says: Excellent


Kivi~

I wanted to let you know that I quietly read your posts and find that for the most part what you write makes sense to me and is logical in its form and presentation from a Jewish point of view speaking to some of our less-informed Christian friends. I appreciate your patience in gently teaching (usually) ;) However, will you please notice what I wrote above? I completely agree that quite often--at least in my experience--christians do not seek out good, reliable sources for their ideas about Jews or Judaism. Part of that I think is not malice so much as just being uninformed...and you know if it's on the Web, it's TRUE! ^_^

Likewise though I have faced the same exact situation from Jewish people regarding christianity. As a funny example, I think some Jewish people may think that christian believe the DaVinci Code is true! :P ^_^ My point is that if I were to ask you...well you are well-informed, well-educated and actually have a christian friend or two whom you know...could you get the real skinny on a certain denominations theologoy and find solid primary sources about christianity? [See what I mean? Maybe YOU could because you are studied, but perhaps not so much for some other Jewish people. ;) ]

So I suggest that we share with each other! I suggest that rather than slinging things around and having theology wars that we maybe start a Reference Thread!

"Good Primary Sources that We Trust"

I would suggest that orthodox Jews add to their primary sources, conservative to theirs, etc. (and to some degree some folks are more savy than others and may personally disagree but know a great source for reformed for example). Likewise I would suggest that a Messianic person add to Messianic primary sources. Finally I would suggest that Christians add to their denomination--and we will NEVER be able to include all the denominations all in one list or thread, but we could maybe do it like this :

A good primary source for Calvinism is "Calvin's Institutes" by John Calvin!
A good primary source for more modern Calvinist theology is any book written by Gordon Clark.
A good primary source on the web for current Calvinist theology is "www.trinityfoundation.org"

(BTW--I got this list from my current dear hubby. Can you guess his denomination?)

This is my thought and request--what do you think?



~Faithful

[kivi]

So because someone reads and interprets a document wrong that makes it wrong? There is a word for that kind of logic, I just can't think of it right now. ........
kivi says: But if the same result of action occures, century after century after century, across numerous denominational lines, different personalities and different circumstances, then it is more than logical to assume that the document, under question, has within it the genesis of that action. I see no Christian sect or denomination that has not be infected [at some time or another] with the disease of anti semitism and missionary-ism. That being the case, it is logical to believe that there is something in Christian teachings that leads to that repetitive result.

From beginning to end. But only about Jews, who are the subject of the book, so you are saying the whole KJT is false??

kivi says: The standard for permissable error in these matters is zero. If part of a document that claims the authority of the KJV is wrong, then how can any part be taken as correct?


What story about healing on the Sabbath are you talking about? I don't recall anything in the Torah ................
kivi says: John 9

I realize it's hard for some to not be able to bear the truth, because it hurts, cuts deep, but I believe my Messiah when he said: I know your afflictions and your poverty--yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
kivi says: Slander must be backed up. Do you have any names, crimes, evidence? What you say is what Christian Missionaries always say about the Jews. We are the spawn of Satan. What I am going to tell you is so you and us should know were we stand with each other. I am giving you the Jewish skinny on these type of charges. You consider us to be in the synagogue of Satan. If you haven't got it, Judaism and Jews takes that as Jew hatred. Now you can keep saying that about us, but just know that we think it is evil. So every time you call us that, we take offense. Just like it when the Nazis said that we were undermenschen, etc. We put the two in the same category, like 'we are in the synagogue of Satan' and Mein Kampft. It is really up to you. You can keep calling us those types of names or you can stop. We would wish you would stop, but we can't make you. But we can try to protect ourselves from whose who treat us in such a way.


So there had to be some in that day,
Do you have any names, dates, crimes, actions, proof, evidence?

and there are still today, because we believers still suffer affliction, from those who do not believe. I guess it comes down to who is authorative enough to determine who really is a Jew?[/quote]
kivi says: Do you have any names, dates, crimes, actions, evidence? The only groups that has any authority over the Jews are the G-d and the Jews. The ones who have tuffed it out under the whip of anti semitism during Galus. Not the ones who have been banishing the whip.


I would never use any bible to define what Judaism is. ?the problem is that many poor ignorant Christians think that the kind of Jew their Savior was back, two thousand years ago can been seen in anyone practicing Judaism today, but it just ain't so.
kivi says: What do you say to a person who just called you a lier as you have called me a lier?

who would expect someone that doesn't believe in Messiah to trust a book containing his words? :D
kivi says: That is your belief, not Judaism.

'Nice', 'hateful', that is in the mind of the human, what should matter is not if they are nice or hateful, but if they are the truth, and just as those didn't want to accept him for who he was, it wasn't because his words were hateful, but because they were TRUTH! And anyone that is not truly following G-ds word, does not want to hear that he is doing wrong. His words were a line drawn in the sand. Believe them and turn from your sin and return to G-d or don't accept them because you are too full of pride and a hypocrite.
kivi says: So, what do I do with a person who has just called me a hypocrite and a lier?
Tell me, is it what G-d requires you to give one sprig out of your ten sprigs of mint to the temple, and then let your parents starve?
kivi says: I don't even understand this insult. But I have to assume it is an insult because you just told me that I let my grandparents strave.

not the G-d and Father of Yeshua and it's not mine. Following a mitzvah of something so inconsequential as giving a tenth of a food flavoring, or stomach easer, over caring for your parents or widows?
kivi says: I have no idea what you are talking about, but it has nothing to do with the various taxes leavied on the Jewish people for the support of the Kohanim, the Temple, the Levites, the poor and the sick.

G-d is concerned with the heart, always has been, yet many think that the outward appearance is what counts, but that only gives place in this world but not the world to come.
kivi says: G-d wants both, a Torah heart and Torah hands. Not just one or the other.


who are these 1000's and 1000's of Christians out trying to convert Jews? This is news to me? :scratch:
kivi says: Sorry you are so out of touch. We can start with J4Js. The the Lutherans, the Southern Baptists, the Methodists, the Calvary Chapel and all other fundamentalist churchs and organizations. Are you looking for a list of the numerous Christian organizatons that support conversion efforts toward the Jews? Do you need the websites?


I know one thing, there shouldn't be any out there even sharing Messiah with those who are false Jews.
kivi says: I have no idea what that means, especially since you just questioned the right of the Jews to decide who is a Jew.

It sounds quite overyly dramatic to say that Christian missionaries are out to prove you wrong. If that truly is the case and their reason for missionizing, then they aren't true believers or followers of Messiah Yeshua and you should avoid them.

And things like this:

There is no copyright on the Torah and secondly if you love it so much, then why don't you obey it? Instead you go by a group of writings by man, not G-d inspired that tell you how to interpret G-d.
kivi says: That is another false charge used by missionaries against the Jews. Since you know so many of the missionary arguements and tactics, I have to go with the evidence that you are a missionary yourself.

these kinds of words right here show you don't honor the Torah, nor it's most important mitzvot.

Loving and honoring G-d and loving and respecting your fellow man is what all Torah boils down to. But these words show you do neither.
kivi says: Thank you for the insults.

What you don't understand and many do not. Getting knowledge of who Messiah Yeshua is, has nothing to do with who can make the best showing of this truth with the most or best scriptures. He is not proven for belief, through scriptures, so no man can boast. The scriptures are there as a witness against those who don't heel the calling of Abba himself.

"I have shown you O man what is good"

Yeshua even told his own talmidim that the knowledge and acknowledgment of who he was did not come from anywhere by from HaShems spirit revealing it to him. The scriptures only bear witness to it, they confirm it. As well it is known there is a plain meaning and a hidden meaning, and man cannot unlock it, despite what the Kabbalists tell you. Instead it has to be opened to us by G-d himself.
kivi says: Judaism holds itself accountable to its Traditions and Laws. These are a public record. We don't have any hidden ones. It seems to me what you are saying is that any one can say that they had an idea about something and if they believe it was Jesus Christ who said it to them in their head, we have to take them at their word. That seems very dangerous to me. I see the effects of that type of actions: The uncredible number of divisions betyween Christians, the vicious and bloody wars and persecutions of Christian against Christian, the outrageous cults and bizarre behavior from the likes of Jim Jones and Jonestown or Brnch Davidian, etc etc etc.


See, even they, his own followers didn't understand until he told them. The truth of who he is and what was written of him had to be explained by him, as he was the one who gave it to be written of him.



( note) something is wrong with the quote feature

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: He's a sniveling whinner. I would imagaine [based on the resume you gave] he is better than most at the twisting game, but he still has the problem that Judaism, as a whole, continues to, rightly, reject the the Christian method and the Christian message. He 'hammered'? Get real. There is no 'hammering'. The very idea of 'hammering' should go against what Christainity claims it stands for. Anyone who 'hammers' and claims to be a Christian has got a problem with their own spiritual development.


You realise of course that doing an ad hominem attack on someone who isn't here is just beating the air, and should be disregarded, don't you?

I think you need to discuss the issues he raises, not whether or not you like him.


If part of a document that claims the authority of the KJV is wrong, then how can any part be taken as correct?

Pray tell, what authority does the KJV claim that is above any other translation?

Are you looking for a list of the numerous Christian organizatons that support conversion efforts toward the Jews? Do you need the websites?Quick note to kivi. Christianity is a missionary religion. Deal with it, move on, and quit griping because this Jew (moi) is grateful for the message of the Messiah.

Quit defending your doctrine by demonising people.

The uncredible number of divisions betyween Christians, the vicious and bloody wars and persecutions of Christian against Christian, the outrageous cults and bizarre behavior from the likes of Jim Jones and Jonestown or Brnch Davidian, etc etc etc. Hyperbole. A lot of it going on in your posts.

FYI- a lesson for you my friend. It's easy to demonise another person's faith. All you have to do is take all the bad stuff, put it in one sentence or so, and hopefully no one will think of the good stuff. The good stuff of the church far outweighs the bad, and I think deep down you know it. Do you know how easy it is to demonise Jews and Judaism by this tactic? It's easy. All someone needs to do is start a thread on the ritualised child sex abuse known as metzitzah b'peh- sadly acceptable still to some orthodox Jews to this day- add a few abuses of citizens by the Israeli government, mix it together with civilian deaths in the Lebanon War and "Voi-la", the Jews are the worst people in the world. Gone are the good deeds, the democracy, the wonder of the Torah etc...all people will see is the bad.

This, my friend, is exactly what you are doing to Christianity and Christians by this unbalanced rage.

It is a well know fact, for example, that if you closed the churches, poverty would overwhelm a government funds within a week, signaling the collapse of every Western nation's (and many other's!) welfare system overnight. It's also well known that in the majority of the world's 3rd World nations, Christian charities keep people fed and educated- often without the assistance of their own governments. It is easily proven that Christianity is primariliy responsible for destroying world paganism, spreading the message of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, establishing welfare when no one else would, and bringing peace to nations where there was previously war (just do some history work, brother).

If there's one thing no one respects, it's the person that demonises another at the expense of balanced facts. What's worse is, you're making us Jews look like a bunch of kvetching babies, and that gives bigoted reactionary forces all the ammo they need to be anti-semites.

[Torah613]

Of course we have nothing against the charitable works that the chr*Stian community accomplishes. I for one, always seek out RC hospitals as they tend to have better medical care and be cheaper.

Now, chr*Stian doctrine of course we take issue with, but as you well know Contra we really don't care what goyim believe. We take issue when missionizing folk come into our homes and try to lure our children away from torah. But there's an easy solution. Give our children a Jewish education. Take them out of hte public schools and put them in a gan/yeshiva.

Yochanan

[kivi]

You realise of course that doing an ad hominem attack on someone who isn't here is just beating the air, and should be disregarded, don't you?
I think you need to discuss the issues he raises, not whether or not you like him.
kivi says: I realize he is not here, I took my Haldol this morning. But you will notice that I don't care about his arguement. It is a waste of time and I don't plan to address it. If he doesn't like Judaism and if he doesn't like Torah and he thinks that the New Testament is a better 'thing', I don't care and Judaism doesn't care. He can go do what he wants all of the time. I will not put the New Testament and the Torah on the same playing field. He has a problem, he has to acknowledge the Torah as the legitimizer for the New Testament. I don't have a problem. I don't have to recognize the New Testament as the legitimizer for the Torah. I don't plan to help him with his problem by doing his 'lifting' for him. The only agruement between Judaism and Christianity is the Christian missionaries. I am here to address that problem.

Pray tell, what authority does the KJV claim that is above any other translation?
kivi says: Any Christian translation, by definition, is a problem. And of course, more fundamentally, both Judaism and Christainity, only the original in Hebrew and Aramaic is authoritive. But I keep running into the arguement that KJV is a 'holy' work and its translation should be taken as authoritive. So, I deal with it.

Quick note to kivi. Christianity is a missionary religion. Deal with it, move on, and quit griping because this Jew (moi) is grateful for the message of the Messiah.
kivi says: No. That is the battle line, the Christian Missionaries. Every thing else is irrelevant except as it refers to that. We don't care what Christianity does except as it effects us, kills us, persecutes us, tortures us, tryies to convert us. Stop that and everything else goes away. The Catholics have finally got it. Now we have to work on the rest of Christianity.

Quit defending your doctrine by demonising people.
kivi says: If people do 'demonic' stuff, then they should be held accountable.

Hyperbole. A lot of it going on in your posts.
kivi says: I am willliing to defend any subjective assersion that I made. The problem is that there is not enough outrage about what has been done. Jews are forgiving people and so we have forgiven those who would kill us, both physically and spiritually, over and over again. But we have confused forgiveness with forgetfullness. I do not. I can forgive, that does not mean I will forget and neither should any Jew.

FYI- a lesson for you my friend. It's easy to demonise another person's faith. All you have to do is take all the bad stuff, put it in one sentence or so, and hopefully no one will think of the good stuff.
kivi says: I don't think so. Care to match them up?

The good stuff of the church far outweighs the bad, and I think deep down you know it. Do you know how easy it is to demonise Jews and Judaism by this tactic? It's easy. All someone needs to do is start a thread on the ritualised child sex abuse known as metzitzah b'peh
kivi says: No arguement that it is a serious health concern and needs to be addresses as such, but to claim that is is 'ritualized child sex abuse'? You would say that? Or, I hope, please, please, please, you are just pointing out that Jew haters cold go there?


- sadly acceptable still to some orthodox Jews to this day- add a few abuses of citizens by the Israeli government, mix it together with civilian deaths in the Lebanon War and "Voi-la", the Jews are the worst people in the world. Gone are the good deeds, the democracy, the wonder of the Torah etc...all people will see is the bad.
kivi says: The Jew haters do it anyway. We have been dancing to their tune for 1000s of years, censuring our own prayers, changing our customs, trying to be 'nice' Jewss to get them to like us, ot at least, stop killing us. It does not work.

This, my friend, is exactly what you are doing to Christianity and Christians by this unbalanced rage.
kivi says: Really is a downer, isn't it, when the same tactics are directed at Christianity. Christianity has had a 'bye' for so loooooooooooooooooooooooooooong that it thinks it deserves it. It doesn't. It should be held accountable as any other organiztion or belief system. And every murder, child rape, torture, war, suicide, etc etc etc it is responsible for, it should be held accountable for.

It is a well know fact, for example, that if you closed the churches, poverty would overwhelm a government funds within a week, signaling the collapse of every Western nation's (and many other's!) welfare system overnight. It's also well known that in the majority of the world's 3rd World nations, Christian charities keep people fed and educated- often without the assistance of their own governments. It is easily proven that Christianity is primariliy responsible for destroying world paganism, spreading the message of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, establishing welfare when no one else would, and bringing peace to nations where there was previously war (just do some history work, brother).
kivi says: The good should not make us ignore the bad, the bad should not make us ignore the good.

If there's one thing no one respects, it's the person that demonises another at the expense of balanced facts. What's worse is, you're making us Jews look like a bunch of kvetching babies, and that gives bigoted reactionary forces all the ammo they need to be anti-semites.
kivi says: They don't need a reason from us, they already have it, they are Jew haters. Esav hates Yaakov. They need no reason for that, just an excuse. You're agruement is very common through out Jewish history about how to deal with Galus. It is not the only arguement. I happen to stand by the 'sock them in the eye' side of the discussion.

[ContraMundum]

But you will notice that I don't care about his arguement. It is a waste of time and I don't plan to address it.

..yet you expect us to listen to your arguments? By such reasoning, why should we?

But I keep running into the arguement that KJV is a 'holy' work and its translation should be taken as authoritive. So, I deal with it.Not familiar with that stuff myself. I know the fringe nuts may believe that, but it's a minority position.

We don't care what Christianity does except as it effects us, kills us, persecutes us, tortures us, tryies to convert us. So, when was the last time you or any Jew you personally know were personally tortured, killed or persecuted in the name of Jesus?

Oh...that's right...you live in the US- a safe place for Jews.

So, perhaps it's time to join the 21st Century and quit playing the victim card? I can't begin to tell you how ridiculous it looks coming from a converted American. It almost trivialises the experience real Jewish victims of anti-semitism.

Jews are forgiving people and so we have forgiven those who would kill us, both physically and spiritually, over and over again. But we have confused forgiveness with forgetfullness. I do not. I can forgive, that does not mean I will forget and neither should any Jew.Any spiritual person knows that forgiveness is not an emotion or a thought- it is an action. This is important, because the person you are forgiving needs to know you have forgiven them. Right now, to me, your "forgiveness" of Christians is only lip service and I'd say you look rather hypocritical, saying one thing and doing another.

Show me how you've forgiven Christians, and what you are doing to show the world that you have. Show me something meaningful.

kivi says: No arguement that it is a serious health concern and needs to be addresses as such, but to claim that is is 'ritualized child sex abuse'? You would say that? Or, I hope, please, please, please, you are just pointing out that Jew haters cold go there? I was pointing out that Jew haters go there- but I hasten to add that I personally am grateful that the practice of metzitzah b'peh is dying out- because to me, and to many, many other Jews, it is disgusting and degrading. If you don't think so, ask yourself if you would have liked it done to you at your conversion or whether or not you'd let your own boys go through it. I know I wouldn't.

kivi says: The Jew haters do it anyway. We have been dancing to their tune for 1000s of years, censuring our own prayers, changing our customs, trying to be 'nice' Jewss to get them to like us, ot at least, stop killing us. It does not work.Note to kivi: things have reversed, even to the other extreme on occasion, would you not agree?

[Torah613]

Personally, I find the missionaries more dangerous to Klal Yisrail than the anti-semitic periods. In the anti-semitic periods, no Jew lost his yiddishkeit. With the missionaries, the lesser informed and non-frum Jews (reform, recon, conservative, etc.) are in danger of being assimilated. Assimilation is the true enemy of Klal Yisrail and of Torah, not anti-semitism.

And frankly, I agree--its time to quite playing the anti-semite (in violent terms) when it comes to the majority of chr*stians. Its simply not reality anymore. But if the history of chr*stian/Jewish relations are any indicator it may be again.

What is going on, and is most revolting, is the missionary activities, particularly the less than honest ones. Like certain sects of chr*stian missionaries targeting Jewish children, or the non-frum and secular. In one case I've heard of in Israel, a chasid came home from kollel to find his gan age son reading a NT that was given to him across the street from the school. If Judaism were a missionizing faith, I would find it equally as horrendous to go to a chr*stian school and pass out copies of anti-missionary literature. its called picking on someone your own size, and its a good thing.

Thankfully in HaEretz it is now illegal for missionaries to bribe potential converts with charitable assistance (food etc.), as was the practice with some sects prior to the law. What an abhorant practice. From what I remember of my time as a chr*stian, this runs contrary to y'alls faith as well.

And finally contra, america is not always safe for Jews. I have had my own bouts growing up in the rural south. recently, in LA, several shuls were firebombed. Ever seen teh movie "the believer"? its based on a true story. To be honest, in most parts of the country its a fringe element, but in certain parts its quite strong.

Yochanan

[Steve Petersen]

Whatever the truth is, it will stand on its own two feet. It doesn't need our help.

No one should feel threatened by exposure to different ideas.

No one is being compelled to believe anything. Threats of damnation can be believed or not. No one is being converted at the point of a gun in the Christian world anymore. You will find this happening to Christians in Islamic countries though.

[ContraMundum]

And finally contra, america is not always safe for Jews. I have had my own bouts growing up in the rural south. recently, in LA, several shuls were firebombed. Ever seen teh movie "the believer"? its based on a true story. To be honest, in most parts of the country its a fringe element, but in certain parts its quite strong.

Yochanan

I think everybody has their problems in America. It's not always safe for Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Asians, Native Americans or others at times. By and large it's a free counttry and people can live in peace- the racism and prejudice is certainly not as focussed on Jews as it was on Blacks or as it now is on Arabic people. I had some incidents in my youth where I was picked on (actually pelted with stones in one case) for being Jewish, but I also knew I had plenty of backup from other Gentile kids in the 'hood. I felt safe generally. Mind you, I don't frequent Muslim neighbourhoods no matter what country I'm in. I'm safe but not stupid. ;)

I never saw "The Believer" because of the nudity in it. I heard it was a true story, and I've always wondered where I could read the story for myself. Is there a book out?

[Torah613]

not sure if theres a book or not. I watched it before I became frum. I do understand completely your aversion to it now though! A woman who practices tzunnis is a princess, because she understands she's worth something. I don't get why women (and men) are obsessed with displaying so much of their physique.

Oh well that's a subject for another thread.

Yochanan

[ContraMundum]

not sure if theres a book or not. keep your eye out for a book or at least an article about the story, if you could.

I watched it before I became frum. I do understand completely your aversion to it now though! A woman who practices tzunnis is a princess, because she understands she's worth something. I don't get why women (and men) are obsessed with displaying so much of their physique.

Oh well that's a subject for another thread.

Yochanan

Yes, it is a subject for another thread and one I would love to see. As a society we need to tighten up in the area of modesty a lot!

[Torah613]

Contra, ask and you shall recieve:

http://www.amazon.com/Believer-Confronting-Jewish-Self-Hatred/dp/156025372X/ref=pd_bbs_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216650795&sr=8-10

[ContraMundum]

Contra, ask and you shall recieve:

http://www.amazon.com/Believer-Confronting-Jewish-Self-Hatred/dp/156025372X/ref=pd_bbs_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216650795&sr=8-10

Dude, you rock! Thanks!:thumbsup:

[Torah613]

I would have had that sooner, but amazon wouldn't load for me earlier. my browser was being slow.

Yochanan

[kivi]

..yet you expect us to listen to your arguments? By such reasoning, why should we?
kivi says: You are forced to by the internal logic of Christianity and its unability to stand on its own feet. Christianity must depend on Judaism for legitimation. Judaims needs no legitimaztion from Chirstianiyt for anything. Judaism can talk about itself forever without once referring to Christianity. Christianity can't complete a sentence without refering to Judaism. Let Christianity give up the Old Testament; Jesus as the Jewish Messiah; all references to replacement theology; G-d as Jehovah, etc; any claim that the Tanach foretells about Jesus, etc; and references to Jews, Judaism, the Temple or any such thing in any end-of-times Christain senerios and Christianity can stop listening to our agruements

Not familiar with that stuff myself. I know the fringe nuts may believe that, but it's a minority position.
kivi says: In the US, the KJV-only is not just fringe with a few squirrels and too many nuts. It is a major part of the evangelic movement.

So, when was the last time you or any Jew you personally know were personally tortured, killed or persecuted in the name of Jesus?
kivi says: I am an historian, I sit down with the persecuted, the tortured, the murdered every day. Personally, I doven with people who wear the tattoos of the camps on a daily basis. The husband of one of my students was killed for being a Jew in the 'Jewish' neighborhood a he was walking home from schul on Pesach. Let the criminal behavior of Christianity be renounced, let the Missionaies seek forgiveness and stop their attempted spiritual genocide, and let Christainity find a new path, and in one hundred years or two , we'll see.

Oh...that's right...you live in the US- a safe place for Jews.

So, perhaps it's time to join the 21st Century and quit playing the victim card? I can't begin to tell you how ridiculous it looks coming from a converted American. It almost trivialises the experience real Jewish victims of anti-semitism.
kivi says: Hardly safe. A little less dangerous. Thank you for calling me 'not a real Jew'.

Any spiritual person knows that forgiveness is not an emotion or a thought- it is an action. This is important, because the person you are forgiving needs to know you have forgiven them. Right now, to me, your "forgiveness" of Christians is only lip service and I'd say you look rather hypocritical, saying one thing and doing another.

Show me how you've forgiven Christians, and what you are doing to show the world that you have. Show me something meaningful.
The last 3 years, my wife and I go to the Mississippi Coast to work with the victims of Katrina. We donate, through Catholic Charities, to the Southwest Indian Foundation every Hanukah. I work, part time, for the rape crisis hotline in my area which is 99.999% Christian. I don't walk up to Christians, on the street, and say: " I forgive you." I do volunteer with Christians, on a daily basis [and have done so for 25 years], on matters of mental health and addictions, both individually and through Christian sponsored homeless shelters.

I was pointing out that Jew haters go there- but I hasten to add that I personally am grateful that the practice of metzitzah b'peh is dying out- because to me, and to many, many other Jews, it is disgusting and degrading. If you don't think so, ask yourself if you would have liked it done to you at your conversion or whether or not you'd let your own boys go through it. I know I wouldn't.
kivi says: Health practices change with the times, often lingering after they are proven to no longer be the best. I don't worry about the Jew haters, they will always find something to hate. But a Jew, without checking the facts, always worries me. I was at both of my sons' brises. They survived very nicely. Now, knowing the untoward health consequences, I would use the more modern/sterile practice. But 'disgusting' or 'degrading', not hardly.

Note to kivi: things have reversed, even to the other extreme on occasion, would you not agree?
kivi says: We would have to push back 2000 years to even come close to that statement.

[HalcyonFire]

1. David Duke
2. the KJV
3. the Jewish encyclopedia
4. The Aryan Nations website
5. Mein Kampf
anyone unimaginative enough to cite these things is one crayon short of a box anyway ^_^;)

[Torah613]

well there was a reason this list was made.....

I will say no more.

Yochanan

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: You are forced to by the internal logic of Christianity and its unability to stand on its own feet. Christianity must depend on Judaism for legitimation. Judaims needs no legitimaztion from Chirstianiyt for anything. Judaism can talk about itself forever without once referring to Christianity. Christianity can't complete a sentence without refering to Judaism. Let Christianity give up the Old Testament; Jesus as the Jewish Messiah; all references to replacement theology; G-d as Jehovah, etc; any claim that the Tanach foretells about Jesus, etc; and references to Jews, Judaism, the Temple or any such thing in any end-of-times Christain senerios and Christianity can stop listening to our agruements

Um....what's your point? How is this bit of information revelant or even interesting?

kivi says: In the US, the KJV-only is not just fringe with a few squirrels and too many nuts. It is a major part of the evangelic movement.Yeah, really? Wow...I didn't know that.

kivi says: I am an historian, I sit down with the persecuted, the tortured, the murdered every day.That explains a lot.

The last 3 years, my wife and I go to the Mississippi Coast to work with the victims of Katrina. We donate, through Catholic Charities, to the Southwest Indian Foundation every Hanukah. I work, part time, for the rape crisis hotline in my area which is 99.999% Christian. I don't walk up to Christians, on the street, and say: " I forgive you." I do volunteer with Christians, on a daily basis [and have done so for 25 years], on matters of mental health and addictions, both individually and through Christian sponsored homeless shelters. Work harder on here.


kivi says: Health practices change with the times, often lingering after they are proven to no longer be the best. I don't worry about the Jew haters, they will always find something to hate. But a Jew, without checking the facts, always worries me. I was at both of my sons' brises. They survived very nicely. Now, knowing the untoward health consequences, I would use the more modern/sterile practice. But 'disgusting' or 'degrading', not hardly.

Mechitza b’peh is OK then? Yeah.........right. So it's ok to do that to a child, provided it's got a religious sanction from the Medieval rabbis? It's ok to abuse a child like that provided it looks frum and everybody dresses and davens the right way?

Tell you what- you can believe that. I'll let you. Just don't tell people every Jew thinks it's ok to do that. Please.

[Torah613]

I think there is a lot of room to discuss it. But it needs to be in a Jewish context where the people discussing it are the people who sit down daily with the rabbinic texts. It needs to be discussed by people who know the attendant medical issues as well as both know and respect halacha.

I'm not trying to slight you contra. For all I know you may be someone who fits the description. However the vast majority of people on a chr*stian forum don't know the issues involved and most of the words simply look like jibberish to them.

In short there is a place for this discussion. its called a Yeshiva, or a beis din. When the sanhedrin gets going again this is one issue that will probably come up.

Yochanan

[kivi]

Um....what's your point? How is this bit of information revelant or even interesting?
kivi says: Because you brought in Dr. Michael L. Brown and his long and irrelevant article on 'weights and measures' claim that the Torah should be held to the same standard as the New Testament and I blew his and your claim away. The discussion then went:
"kivi http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47884989#post47884989) But you will notice that I don't care about his arguement. It is a waste of time and I don't plan to address it.
CM..yet you expect us to listen to your arguments? By such reasoning, why should we?"

and I then said: Then don't listen to us. Let us wallow in our own stubborness and error. Leave us alone. Stop harrassing us. If we are wrong, then clap :clap:as we go to Hell. Stop stalking us on earth. :thumbsup: But, Christianity can't divorce itself from Judaism because it has to go back to the Jews and Judaism for legiitmacy. On the other hand, Judaism doesn't have to depend on Christianity for legitimacy. Therefore, you and Dr.Michael L. Brown and all of the rest of the Christian apologists are stuck with Judaism, even when they don't want it. That's why Christian apologists have to keep listening to the arguements of the Jewish anti missionaries. And how do I know you are stuck? Because the Christian apologists/Missionaries won't leave us alone. I sure do wish we could get a restraining order against them.

CM:Work harder on here.
kivi says: Are you implying that I am a slacker, here?:confused:

Mechitza b’peh is OK then? Yeah.........right. So it's ok to do that to a child, provided it's got a religious sanction from the Medieval rabbis? It's ok to abuse a child like that provided it looks frum and everybody dresses and davens the right way?
kivi says: While it may be an outdated medical proceedure, it is most definitely not a sexual abuse thingee. And to imply it is is disgusting on your part. I am ashamed for you. You know better. Nobody is 'getting off' on it. The work is done in public, in front of the parents. No sexual pleasure is being gotten by the performing model. Come on, now. Don't do the anti semite's job for them. You can disagree respectfully, without trashing the honor, decency and spirituality of the people involved.

Tell you what- you can believe that. I'll let you. Just don't tell people every Jew thinks it's ok to do that. Please.
kivi says: Have I ever made such a claim for anything, that every Jew agrees with what I state? I don't think so. Heck, in a lot of matters, I give several of the different Observant Jewish Community views that may disagree.