Does Mary,the Mother Of God,need A Makeover?

[The Weaker Brother]

Hail mary,full of grace..
Well,she like ,us had grace,right?:)

The lord is with thee..
the Lord was with her,right?:thumbsup:

And blessed art thou,among women..
she was blessed,right?:clap:

And blessed is the fruit,of thy womb Jesus..
Well,her womb was blessed,and was fruitful,right?:priest:

Holy mary,mother of God…
Jesus was God,and she was his mother,right?:idea:

Pray for our sinners…
Sinners need prayer,right?:pray:

Now,and at the hour of our death,amen..
We do die,right?:o

So where does Our Lady stand with you?;)

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s234/arulforyou/MotherMary.gif

[Balance]

Hail mary,full of grace..
Well,she like ,us had grace,right?:) Yup she no greater Grace than you or me.

The lord is with thee..
the Lord was with her,right?:thumbsup: And eventually She was Born Again JUST like you and I - no difference.

And blessed art thou,among women..
she was blessed,right?:clap: Yup - we're blessed among men and woman because of Jesus.

And blessed is the fruit,of thy womb Jesus..
Well,her womb was blessed,and was fruitful,right?:priest: YUP

Holy mary,mother of God…
Jesus was God,and she was his mother,right?:idea: NOPE - God has no beginning and was not born - she was however the human vessel that brought Jesus incarnate. She was the mother of the physicalJesus, but NOT the mother of God the Father and not the mother of the Holy Spirit.

Pray for our sinners…
Sinners need prayer,right?:pray: Except once you die - you can't pray any longer, nor hear our prayers can you. I'm sure she prayed for people - both sinners and saints when she was alive - but does not do so or can do so now.

Now,and at the hour of our death,amen..
We do die,right?:o We do all physically die - but there's no praying for the dead and certainly not from a dead person.

So where does Our Lady stand with you?;)



She NOT my lady, or anything else to me beyond a historical figure, so she doesn't stand at this point anywhere with me personally.

She was certainly a blessed person - and I wish people would treat her as she treated herself -

[He put me back together]

What's with the picture of the Roman priestess? o_O

[The Weaker Brother]

She NOT my lady, or anything else to me beyond a historical figure, so she doesn't stand at this point anywhere with me personally.

She was certainly a blessed person - and I wish people would treat her as she treated herself -




excuse me sir,are you a lutheran?

[simpleone]

my turn, my turn, my turn...just having some fun weakerbrother.... :)


Hail mary,full of grace..
- rather hail Jesus - full of grace

The lord is with thee..
- The Lord was with her alright

And blessed art thou,among women..
- she was blessed

And blessed is the fruit,of thy womb Jesus..
- yep yep...

Holy mary,mother of God…
- God is Holy...God is the great I AM...noone before or after him...he is alpha and omega...

Pray for our sinners…
- well if she were alive today on earth - yeah prayer is well appreciated...

Now,and at the hour of our death,amen..
- at the hour our death...no need for prayers for then I will be in the Lords presence...which would be great of course... :) (dont hold me back...grrrr...hehe...jk)

take care brother! :)

[Balance]

excuse me sir,are you a lutheran?

No - actually Martin Luther supported the veneration of Mary -

I however do not.

I am sure Mary was a wonderful person - and I think it would be really interesting to speak with her once we see her in heaven - but she is a person, holds no part in Divinity and cannot hear those who pray to her. I think she would be upset to find out people were.

Are you sure you're in the right forum? Our Catholic brothers and sisters do have their charismatic forum - I think your question would be better received there.

[The Weaker Brother]

No - actually Martin Luther supported the veneration of Mary -

I however do not.

I am sure Mary was a wonderful person - and I think it would be really interesting to speak with her once we see her in heaven - but she is a person, holds no part in Divinity and cannot hear those who pray to her. I think she would be upset to find out people were.

Are you sure you're in the right forum? Our Catholic brothers and sisters do have their charismatic forum - I think your question would be better received there.

sir,if the catholics are our brothers and sisters,doesn't that make her our mother?:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[The Weaker Brother]

my turn, my turn, my turn...just having some fun weakerbrother.... :)


Hail mary,full of grace..
- rather hail Jesus - full of grace

The lord is with thee..
- The Lord was with her alright

And blessed art thou,among women..
- she was blessed

And blessed is the fruit,of thy womb Jesus..
- yep yep...

Holy mary,mother of God…
- God is Holy...God is the great I AM...noone before or after him...he is alpha and omega...

Pray for our sinners…
- well if she were alive today on earth - yeah prayer is well appreciated...

Now,and at the hour of our death,amen..
- at the hour our death...no need for prayers for then I will be in the Lords presence...which would be great of course... :) (dont hold me back...grrrr...hehe...jk)

take care brother! :)
:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

[cherokeehippie]

The real Mary, a Jewish woman, would frown on the worship of her with statues of her, etc....it isn'r really Mary, but a form of mother goddess worship that was introduced into the 'church' after Constantine, the Roman Emperor made 'christianity' a state religion. I believe that there are many sincere born again Believers who are catholic and I don't have anything against them...they are a part of the Body...but...there is stuff such as Mary worship that isn't scriptural.

It is also a fact that many of the churches in France, etc were placed on top of places that were orignially sites of mother goddess worship...and are on 'leylnes.'

[icedtea]

cherokeehippie-I hear ya!:thumbsup: I know what you are referring to!

My mum is not alive anymore. neither is Mary.
I have never paid her(Mary, not my mom!) any attention (even in my youth when I was a Catholic).

[The Lord is my banner]

I agree we don't worship Mary or try to speak to her or expect to hear/see her. But...I disagree that "dead" people are unable to pray.

Since they are living in the eternal presence of God, they may well continue to intercede for us after they leave the earth. The dead in Christ live! Hallelujah!

[DianeL]

Mary needed to be saved too, and she was.

She isn't my mother though, not anymore than the Apostle Paul is my father.

Sometimes when God uses a vessel/creation, we tend to want to worship the vessel/creation, maybe one day, we'll get it and worship the Creator.

[Father Rick]

You know...

It never ceases to amaze me why people get so upset about the "Hail Mary". The first half of it is direct quotes from scripture-- and I think everyone here would agree that quoting scripture is a good thing.

The last portion "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death" include a theological statement and a request for prayer. The theological statement "Mother of God" (literally theotokos) is an affirmation that Jesus was indeed God at all times including while here on earth as a man, the son of Mary-- even when in Mary's womb, He was (and still is) God. Again, I think everyone here would agree with that.

As to the request for prayer---I think all of us would admit that we need prayer.

I know that some Protestants reject the ideas that those have died 1) are aware of what's happening on earth and/or 2) still pray. As to the first point, Scripture clearly says that we "are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses"-- that those who have gone before us in the faith are witnesses to our lives and the grace of God at work in us.

As to the second point, there are numerous references in scripture to those in heaven communicating with God (which, by it's very definition is prayer). But are those in heaven actually offering prayers for us? Or aware of what we're praying for/about? Scripture is actually specific that those in heaven offer our prayers to God:
Revelations 5:8 When (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3753&version=nas) He had taken (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2983&version=nas) the book (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=975&version=nas), the four (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5064&version=nas) living (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2226&version=nas) creatures (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2226&version=nas) and the twenty-four (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1501&version=nas) * (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5064&version=nas) elders (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4245&version=nas) fell (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4098&version=nas) down (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4098&version=nas) before (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1799&version=nas) the Lamb , each (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1538&version=nas) one (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1538&version=nas) holding (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2198&version=nas) a harp (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2788&version=nas) and golden (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5552&version=nas) bowls (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5357&version=nas) full (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1073&version=nas) of incense (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2368&version=nas), which (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3739&version=nas) are the prayers (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4335&version=nas) of the saints (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=40&version=nas). How does this work, that the prayers of the saints are gathered up then offered to God by saints in heaven? I don't know... scripture doesn't explain. It simply says that it happens. And if scripture says that it happens, then we have to accept that it happens whether we understand it or not. And this is what the vast majority of Christians (not just RC's) have believed through the centuries.

[churchlady]

It never ceases to amaze me why people get so upset about the "Hail Mary".
quoting scripture is a good thing.

I think all of us would admit that we need prayer.

are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses"--

Scripture is actually specific that those in heaven offer our prayers to God

Revelations 5:8 When (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3753&version=nas) He had taken (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2983&version=nas) the book (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=975&version=nas), the four (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5064&version=nas) living (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2226&version=nas) creatures (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2226&version=nas) and the twenty-four (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1501&version=nas) * (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5064&version=nas) elders (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4245&version=nas) fell (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4098&version=nas) down (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4098&version=nas) before (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1799&version=nas) the Lamb , each (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1538&version=nas) one (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1538&version=nas) holding (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2198&version=nas) a harp (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2788&version=nas) and golden (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5552&version=nas) bowls (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5357&version=nas) full (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1073&version=nas) of incense (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2368&version=nas), which (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3739&version=nas) are the prayers (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4335&version=nas) of the saints (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=40&version=nas).

Yes, quoting scripture is a good thing and we all need prayer, and the scripture shows the 24 elders offering our prayers.

But we don't have statues of the 24 elders in our home, church, or front lawn showing inordinate reverance for them above what is shown in the scripture, nor do we have beads with which we pray to them, or do penance to God through them.

[Father Rick]

Yes, quoting scripture is a good thing and we all need prayer, and the scripture shows the 24 elders offering our prayers.

But we don't have statues of the 24 elders in our home, church, or front lawn showing inordinate reverance for them above what is shown in the scripture, While you may not have statues of them, many Christians/churches do (both RC and Protestant)... actually more do than don't. And those who may not have statues of Matthew, John, Peter, etc. frequently have stained glass windows of them... or paintings of them.

As to "showing inordinate reverence", I agree that there are those who do such. But equally, there are those who show "inordinate reverence" to many ministers today-- and there are in fact, far too many ministers in P/C circles who demand such reverence. How many times has some version of "touch not God's anointed" been abused?

But while some do go to an extreme, you can't throw out what scripture actually says. Scripture says we are to 'give honor to whom honor is due'. Paul told the Church as a whole (1 Cor. 11:1) that we should follow him as he follows Christ. So, to lift up someone as an example of the faith and say "this is an example to follow" is completely scriptural.

And while the common argument to that presented by some Protestants is "well, we don't follow some saint, we follow Jesus"-- Paul also addressed that specific issue:10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ." Those who were saying "I follow Christ" are criticized equally with those saying they were following after a particular apostle/saint.

nor do we have beads with which we pray to them,
As far as having some tangible "thing" to help one focus when praying, well even Jesus had such. Every Jewish man, including Jesus, wore a "tallit", a prayer shawl, which has "tzitzit" (long tassels with knots) on the corners. These tassels were what the woman with the issue of blood touched (the hem of the garment)-- as a physical reminder of God's promise. Even today, if you observe Orthodox Jewish men praying, you will see them pull their tallit over their head-- and wrap the tassels around their fingers-- as a physical aid to help them focus.


Throughout Church history, there have always been various such things used. In the Eastern Church, there are prayer ropes with knots. In modern Charismatic churches, it's not uncommon for people to use some form of "point of contact" (a term I personally hate-- but that's another story) of some kind of prayer cloth, etc.
or do penance to God through them.Uhh... not quite sure what you're thinking here. No one does penance "through a saint". Penance simply means an act of repentance.

[pinetree]

why cant catholics admit it..said with all do respect..:)

they talk about here like a diety,and they do pray to her,we have all seen that..

They say things like..go to our lady ,she will comfort and guide you,etc..:o

[BenAdam]

because there is a difference between official dogma and defacto practice

people can point to official dogma and say "See, this is what we are going." all the while the defacto practices bear zero similarity

[pinetree]

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i269/tonyandcarlawedding/_MG_8745.jpg
look at these folks here..

[BenAdam]

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i269/tonyandcarlawedding/_MG_8745.jpg
look at these folks here..


I can't stand it....


... where did she get the fabric for that dress? Looks like it came off grandma's sofa.

[pinetree]

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t58/delucawedding/Official%20Wedding%20Shots/a8a39760.jpg

here too..how could it be they dont have chairs??

[pinetree]

I can't stand it....


... where did she get the fabric for that dress? Looks like it came off grandma's sofa.
i think it actually was an old shower cutain..:D:D

[BenAdam]

another fashion faux pas, an off the shoulder wedding dress with one lace sleeve *gag*

[MungDaal]

I can't stand it....


... where did she get the fabric for that dress? Looks like it came off grandma's sofa.

probably wears white shoes after labor day

[pinetree]

I can't stand it....


... where did she get the fabric for that dress? Looks like it came off grandma's sofa.
ben! look close at the statue,she is standing on the head of the infant!:o

[BenAdam]

ben! look close at the statue,she is standing on the head of the infant!:o

someone should call cps! inciting child abuse

[pinetree]

probably wears white shoes after labor day
hi,are you old enough to remember paten leather shoes.
They were black and white,and shiny,:D

[MungDaal]

hi,are you old enough to remember paten leather shoes.
They were black and white,and shiny,:D

in my childhood we were so poor we went barefoot 'cept on Sundays when we strapped a piece of leather to the soles of our feet and took the pig grease to slick our hair back

[lismore]

,right?:priest:

Holy mary,mother of God…
Jesus was God,and she was his mother,right?:idea:



If Jesus was God then what is he now? :doh:

[pinetree]

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd78/unrated_doom/pray.jpg

I thought we were to imitate Christ!?;)

[pinetree]

in my childhood we were so poor we went barefoot 'cept on Sundays when we strapped a piece of leather to the soles of our feet and took the pig grease to slick our hair back
sorry to hear that..

if you only had sown a faith seed,things would have been better!:doh:

[MungDaal]

sorry to hear that..

if you only had sown a faith seed,things would have been better!:doh:

Are you calling me a hayseed there partner? I ain't be no redneck.

[churchlady]

another fashion faux pas, an off the shoulder wedding dress with one lace sleeve *gag*

probably wears white shoes after labor day

hi,are you old enough to remember paten leather shoes.
They were black and white,and shiny,:D

in my childhood we were so poor we went barefoot 'cept on Sundays when we strapped a piece of leather to the soles of our feet and took the pig grease to slick our hair back

sorry to hear that..

if you only had sown a faith seed,things would have been better!:doh:

Well, another thread bites the dust. Hijackers!

[MungDaal]

Well, another thread bites the dust. Hijackers!
I remember the great Oklahoma dustbowl during the depression. Pappy had to pack us all in the old ford truck and drove us to calforny. Grandma and grandpa died on the way....

[SharonL]

I was visiting a Catholic hospital and there was a large statue of Mary and people would go by and the medical staff would go by and bow down at her feet - kiss her hands - the paint was actually worn off of the hands from people kissing the hands. Is that not worship.

Coming out of confession you are usually told to say so many Hail Mary's - I think that is the pentence that was referred to earlier.

In the RCIA class which I attended - they teach that the woman in Rev. on the beast is Mary - you are not to question it - I did - and was ignored.

Since I married a Catholic I really tried to make our household to be one denomination and for years tried as hard as I could - but just could not do it.

It is very confusing - the Catholics and the Protestants all say they see visions and hear God speak - yet it is not the same language - I am not saying either is right or wrong - but each firmly believe they hear from God - I guess when we get to Heaven we will know and yes both will be in Heaven.

Both may be climbing the mountain on different sides, but there is only one top - the belief in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is well represented in both.

[pinetree]

I was visiting a Catholic hospital and there was a large statue of Mary and people would go by and the medical staff would go by and bow down at her feet - kiss her hands - the paint was actually worn off of the hands from people kissing the hands. Is that not worship.

Coming out of confession you are usually told to say so many Hail Mary's - I think that is the pentence that was referred to earlier.

In the RCIA class which I attended - they teach that the woman in Rev. on the beast is Mary - you are not to question it - I did - and was ignored.

Since I married a Catholic I really tried to make our household to be one denomination and for years tried as hard as I could - but just could not do it.

It is very confusing - the Catholics and the Protestants all say they see visions and hear God speak - yet it is not the same language - I am not saying either is right or wrong - but each firmly believe they hear from God - I guess when we get to Heaven we will know and yes both will be in Heaven.

Both may be climbing the mountain on different sides, but there is only one top - the belief in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is well represented in both.
:amen::thumbsup:

[pinetree]

I remember the great Oklahoma dustbowl during the depression. Pappy had to pack us all in the old ford truck and drove us to calforny. Grandma and grandpa died on the way....

just chuck old grampy out of the wagon,and keep going,who needed the old geezer anyway!

dems was tuff times!

wait a minute..dems..speaking of democrats!

[JeCrois]

Why anyone would want to communicate with anyone beyond this earth other than the Holy Trinity is beyond me!

[MungDaal]

Why anyone would want to communicate with anyone beyond this earth other than the Holy Trinity is beyond me!

What about them there Extry Terrestials? Them have been visting this here Arth for hundreds of years.

[Father Rick]

I was visiting a Catholic hospital and there was a large statue of Mary and people would go by and the medical staff would go by and bow down at her feet - kiss her hands - the paint was actually worn off of the hands from people kissing the hands. Is that not worship.I would say no...

In different cultures there are very, very many ways of showing respect for someone. (respect... not worship) Kissing the hand and/or foot is one of those that is extremely common.



Coming out of confession you are usually told to say so many Hail Mary's - I think that is the pentence that was referred to earlier.
Actually while it's common in the movies, and it may happen in real life, I've never heard such given.
In the RCIA class which I attended - they teach that the woman in Rev. on the beast is Mary - you are not to question it - I did - and was ignored.A common RC interpretation of Revelations is that Mary is the woman depicted... the woman who gives birth to a son that Satan wanted to kill. (Gee, I wonder why people would think that may apply to Mary?)... forgive the sarcasm

Since I married a Catholic I really tried to make our household to be one denomination and for years tried as hard as I could - but just could not do it.

It is very confusing - the Catholics and the Protestants all say they see visions and hear God speak - yet it is not the same language - I am not saying either is right or wrong - but each firmly believe they hear from God - I guess when we get to Heaven we will know and yes both will be in Heaven.

Both may be climbing the mountain on different sides, but there is only one top - the belief in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is well represented in both.I think you actually hit on a real truth here...

Different people speak different languages. Even those of us speaking English speak many different versions of English. And even if we're speaking the same version of English, because of our various backgrounds there are various implications to what is being said depending on our particular cultural background.

On the day of Pentecost, the apostles were empowered by the Holy Spirit so that all those around "heard them glorifying God in their own language". However, far too many Christians are trying to insist that God only speaks "my" language (whatever that person's language is) rather than allowing God to speak to different people in different ways.

The vast majority of Protestants-- and certainly the greatest cultural/societal influences of Protestantism-- are western/European. The "language" of western linear thought (upon which most western culture is built) is extremely different from that of Eastern "circular" thought-- which tends to comprehend concepts in overlapping symbolic terms.

Scripture was actually written in eastern terms, not western. All of the writers of scripture were semitic... and thus their worldview was quite different from that of the typical westerner. Even the NT, written in Greek, was primarily written by Paul-- a trained rabbi (not a western scholar).

The early church fathers as well were primarily eastern. The concepts, the theology, etc. of the early church clearly reflect this fact. Those in the historic churches, even those who are in the west, are still heavily influenced by these eastern views in their communication of spirituality.

Unfortunately, many don't realize just how much their understanding of scripture is influenced by their worldview. And then when we see other Christians, who are brothers in Christ... who share in the grace of God... yet they are communicating in a "different language" than we are (even if that language is English) we either dismiss them-- or even worse attack/condemn them.

[Balance]

Why would I need someone praying for me, especially someone who is dead, when I am seated with Christ already -

If I want to say something to my FATHER I just look to the left and there He is -

Additionally, if Mary holds such and important place -



where is she mentioned in Scripture past Acts 2?

Where was she when the Apostles met regarding the foundational elements of the church?
Where is it mentioned in the New Testament (after Acts 2) where she did anything?
Why is she NOT mentioned after Acts 2?

[churchlady]

Different people speak different languages.

The "language" of western linear thought (upon which most western culture is built) is extremely different from that of Eastern "circular" thought-- which tends to comprehend concepts in overlapping symbolic terms.

Since we are talking about Mary, could you give a clear example of how 'linear' thought and 'circular' thought about her, may differ?

[Father Rick]

Why would I need someone praying for me, especially someone who is dead, when I am seated with Christ already -

If I want to say something to my FATHER I just look to the left and there He is -
While this sounds good-- it actually contradicts certain Biblical principles.

Scripture is clear that we are to pray for one another. Scripture is also clear that we need each others prayers. Certainly we call can, and do, pray for ourselves as well... but that is only one piece of the puzzle, not the whole puzzle.

None of us are an island unto ourselves-- especially when it comes to our life in Christ. Rather, we are all part of the same body... each part dependant upon the others.


Additionally, if Mary holds such and important place -



where is she mentioned in Scripture past Acts 2?

Where was she when the Apostles met regarding the foundational elements of the church?
Where is it mentioned in the New Testament (after Acts 2) where she did anything?
Why is she NOT mentioned after Acts 2?
Actually, most of the the original 12 apostles are not mentioned after Acts 2. Yet they played key roles in building the Church around the world as scripture says, the church was built upon "the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, Jesus Christ, Himself, being the chief cornerstone." So, just because someone isn't talked about after a specific point in scripture doesn't mean that they weren't important.

We also know that Mary had an influence in the writing of the New Testament. Luke specifically says that the information in his gospel came from "eyewitnesses"... and he tells the story of things that happened when Mary was alone (the angel appearing, etc.). So, who was the "eyewitness" that he got his information from? It could only have been Mary. Church history records Luke and Paul, while travelling together, spending time in the same city in which Mary was living... so it only makes sense that she discussed with the two of them her testimony, which Luke later recorded under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

[icedtea]

There is ONE mediator between God and man, Lord Jesus.:amen:

[Trish1947]

All I know is Mary needed a saviour, just like we do. She said it herself. She needed a mediator just like we do. She called Him Lord. Considered herself of low estate, and was considered blessed because she believed that those things that were told to her would come to pass.
Your always blessed when you believe God. I wonder what would have happened if she didn't believe.

Luk 1:45 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=1&verse=45&version=kjv#45)And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.
Luk 1:46 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=1&verse=46&version=kjv#46) And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Luk 1:47 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=1&verse=47&version=kjv#47) And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Luk 1:48 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=1&verse=48&version=kjv#48) For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

[JeCrois]

We also know that Mary had an influence in the writing of the New Testament. Luke specifically says that the information in his gospel came from "eyewitnesses"... and he tells the story of things that happened when Mary was alone (the angel appearing, etc.). So, who was the "eyewitness" that he got his information from? It could only have been Mary. Church history records Luke and Paul, while travelling together, spending time in the same city in which Mary was living... so it only makes sense that she discussed with the two of them her testimony, which Luke later recorded under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.


So this makes her worthy of our prayer? Are any of the other "eyewitnesses" prayed to?....really....I ask sincerly because I'm not Catholic, wasn't raised Catholic, and there really aren't a whole lot of Catholics in my neck of the woods down South.


All I know about Catholicism is from what I learn on my own.

[Father Rick]

Since we are talking about Mary, could you give a clear example of how 'linear' thought and 'circular' thought about her, may differ?
In Eastern thought, there is not a clear distinction between the natural and the spiritual realms as in Western thought. Rather, the two are inter-related and interwoven with each having a direct impact on the other. This is why it is often so "easy" for there to be healings, miracles, etc. in many eastern cultures.

Specifically with regards to Mary-- actually in a broader sense
" the communion of the saints"-- in the West we have a very "clear cut" thought of someone is either "alive" (that is they are here on earth with us) or they are "dead" (that is they are no longer here on earth with us). Scripture actually portrays a different view, where Jesus specifically says that Abraham, etc. are "alive" even though they are not here on earth. ("God is not the God of the dead, but the living"). Scripture says that those who have died in the faith are "alive in Christ", etc. The teaching of Paul that we are "surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses" continues this same theme... The "communion of the saints" by it's definition, is that ALL the saints-- those here on earth and those in heaven-- are interconnected because we are all part of one Body and the same Holy Spirit dwells in all of us.. those still on earth and those in heaven.

Then we get into issues such as various symbolisms used, such as "the woman" in Revelations... images that can have multiple layers of meaning simultaneously.

[Father Rick]

So this makes her worthy of our prayer? Are any of the other "eyewitnesses" prayed to?....really....I ask sincerly because I'm not Catholic, wasn't raised Catholic, and there really aren't a whole lot of Catholics in my neck of the woods down South.


All I know about Catholicism is from what I learn on my own.No problem...

An issue here is a lack of understanding of how the term "pray" is used...

According to Catholic theology, no saint can do anything in and of themself (either saints here on earth or in heaven). Rather, by our prayers to God we are instruments through which His grace flows to others. In other words, if someone is sick and comes to me and says "Father Rick, will you pray for me?" I may be the one standing there praying but it is God working through me that affects any work that may be done. I am simply a conduit for His grace to flow through.

When speaking of "praying" to a saint, the term "pray" is used in an old English tense... the same way one would say "I pray thee, pass the butter". A "prayer" to a saint is not asking the saint to do something for you... but asking the saint to pray to God for you, just as you might ask your pastor or some other Christian here on earth to pray for you. No more, no less. If you have "asked" your pastor to pray for you, then you have "prayed" to your pastor for him to pray for you.

Now, I know that is NOT the way the term "pray" is used in contemporary English... but that is how it is being used in these cases.

Look at the "Hail Mary" for instance... what is Mary being asked to do? Just to pray...

Hopefully this helps you understand a bit better...

[pinetree]

Why would I need someone praying for me, especially someone who is dead, when I am seated with Christ already -

If I want to say something to my FATHER I just look to the left and there He is -

Additionally, if Mary holds such and important place -



where is she mentioned in Scripture past Acts 2?

Where was she when the Apostles met regarding the foundational elements of the church?
Where is it mentioned in the New Testament (after Acts 2) where she did anything?
Why is she NOT mentioned after Acts 2?

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[JeCrois]

That makes sense, Father Rick, thanks....but what I don't understand now is why would we ask those who have already passed away from this earth to pray on our behalf.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Mary was blessed. I don't believe that means she was born and lived a sinless life. Only Jesus, Himself God, did that. She was the human that was used to carry and give birth. I believe Jesus died for her sins too.

[pinetree]

Mary was blessed. I don't believe that means she was born and lived a sinless life. Only Jesus, Himself God, did that. She was the human that was used to carry and give birth. I believe Jesus died for her sins too.
yup.
I think catholics believe she was sinless,.:doh:



How about it Father Rick..was mary sinless?:)

[Father Rick]

That makes sense, Father Rick, thanks....but what I don't understand now is why would we ask those who have already passed away from this earth to pray on our behalf.For the exact same reason that you might ask a Christian here on earth to pray for you... except we know that those who are now in heaven don't have many of the limitations those of us on earth have (such as getting tired, etc.) as well as we know that those who are in heaven have been perfected in their sanctification while we still struggle with our own passions, etc.

We know that the righteousness of God has been imputed to us via faith in the work of Christ... however, we are still growing in our faith. Those who are currently in heaven have already attained that for which we are still striving. No longer do they lack faith in any area, as they see Him face to face.

[BenAdam]

yup.
I think catholics believe she was sinless,.



How about it Father Rick..was mary sinless?

Catholics believe she was divinely preserved from the taint of original sin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_conception

[Father Rick]

yup.
I think catholics believe she was sinless,.



How about it Father Rick..was mary sinless?Roman Catholics believe that, by a unique work of the grace of God, Mary was kept from sin by faith in Jesus, yet to come at that point.

Old Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc. do not.

[BenAdam]

Roman Catholics believe that, by a unique work of the grace of God, Mary was kept from sin by faith in Jesus, yet to come at that point.

Old Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc. do not.

My apologies, I should have pointed out that distinction.

[pinetree]

Roman Catholics believe that, by a unique work of the grace of God, Mary was kept from sin by faith in Jesus, yet to come at that point.

Old Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc. do not.
Thanks friend!

But what do you think?:):thumbsup:

[JeCrois]

Roman Catholics believe that, by a unique work of the grace of God, Mary was kept from sin by faith in Jesus, yet to come at that point.

Old Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc. do not.


I don't mean to turn this into 20 questions....sorry...;)


So you're saying she was sinless up to the point she gave birth to Jesus....then she went on from then like the rest of us needing forgiveness for her sin?

[icedtea]

The bible says All have sinned. Except Jesus.

[BenAdam]

I don't mean to turn this into 20 questions....sorry...;)


So you're saying she was sinless up to the point she gave birth to Jesus....then she went on from then like the rest of us needing forgiveness for her sin?

"In the words of Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis , "she was free from any personal or hereditary sin"

[churchlady]

could you give a clear example of how 'linear' thought and 'circular' thought about her, may differ?

In Eastern thought, there is not a clear distinction between the natural and the spiritual realms as in Western thought. Rather, the two are inter-related and interwoven with each having a direct impact on the other. This is why it is often so "easy" for there to be healings, miracles, etc. in many eastern cultures.

Specifically with regards to Mary-- actually in a broader sense
" the communion of the saints"-- in the West we have a very "clear cut" thought of someone is either "alive" (that is they are here on earth with us) or they are "dead" (that is they are no longer here on earth with us). Scripture actually portrays a different view, where Jesus specifically says that Abraham, etc. are "alive" even though they are not here on earth. ("God is not the God of the dead, but the living"). Scripture says that those who have died in the faith are "alive in Christ", etc. The teaching of Paul that we are "surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses" continues this same theme... The "communion of the saints" by it's definition, is that ALL the saints-- those here on earth and those in heaven-- are interconnected because we are all part of one Body and the same Holy Spirit dwells in all of us.. those still on earth and those in heaven.

Then we get into issues such as various symbolisms used, such as "the woman" in Revelations... images that can have multiple layers of meaning simultaneously.

Thank you for this. :)

[Balance]

[/font][/size]
While this sounds good-- it actually contradicts certain Biblical principles.

I am afraid you are mistaken -

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
You will note the verses are in present tense - NOT future.


Scripture also clearly states that there is only ONE mediator between man and God - then man Jesus Christ. So Mary cannot be a mediator any more than my dead aunt Nellie can.

Scripture is clear that we are to pray for one another. Scripture is also clear that we need each others prayers. Certainly we call can, and do, pray for ourselves as well... but that is only one piece of the puzzle, not the whole puzzle.

I am in no way, shape or form saying we shouldn't pray for one another, or that we don't need each others prayer. But asking for someone who is NOT divine and has been dead for more than 2,000 years is not a biblical principal, nor is it supported anywhere in scripture.


None of us are an island unto ourselves-- especially when it comes to our life in Christ. Rather, we are all part of the same body... each part dependant upon the others.

While we are alive on this earth - that is true. Again there is no biblical example or proof or direction to pray to dead people to help us.

Actually, most of the the original 12 apostles are not mentioned after Acts 2. Yet they played key roles in building the Church around the world as scripture says, the church was built upon "the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, Jesus Christ, Himself, being the chief cornerstone." So, just because someone isn't talked about after a specific point in scripture doesn't mean that they weren't important.


[SIZE=3][FONT=Comic Sans MS]The foundation of the Apostles (New Testament Writings) and the Prophets (Old Testament writings) has nothing to do with Mary - she was not an apostle nor prophet. The old argument -

"Just because it wasn't mentioned, doesn't mean it didn't happen"

Is flawed logically, and I know of no theologian who would support such a supposition.

We also know that Mary had an influence in the writing of the New Testament. Luke specifically says that the information in his gospel came from "eyewitnesses"... and he tells the story of things that happened when Mary was alone (the angel appearing, etc.). So, who was the "eyewitness" that he got his information from?

Again, certainly Mary WAS blessed, and certainly she told her story that is recorded in the Gospels - James was an "eye witness" to thins that he shared with Luke also - it doesn't make him divine - it makes both of them eye witnesses - nothing more, nothing less.


It could only have been Mary. Church history records Luke and Paul, while travelling together, spending time in the same city in which Mary was living... so it only makes sense that she discussed with the two of them her testimony, which Luke later recorded under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Which Mary???

There are only three mentions of a Mary in the Epistles -



Acts 1:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=1&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)
These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
Acts 1:13-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=1&verse=13&end_verse=15&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Acts 1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=1&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Acts 12:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=12&verse=12&version=50&context=verse)
So, when he had considered this, he came to the house of Mary, the mother of John whose surname was Mark, where many were gathered together praying.
Acts 12:11-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=12&verse=11&end_verse=13&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Acts 12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=12&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Romans 16:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=16&verse=6&version=50&context=verse)
Greet Mary, who labored much for us.
Romans 16:5-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=16&verse=5&end_verse=7&version=50&context=context) (in Context)


So, which Mary was the third? The scripture doesn't say.

Sorry - you're placing way too much emphasis on a very blessed, very honorable and NEVER divine dead woman. Who might be in the cloud of witnesses, but there's no indication in the NT that that cloud of witnesses does anything other than witness.

[Trish1947]

I don't mean to turn this into 20 questions....sorry...;)


So you're saying she was sinless up to the point she gave birth to Jesus....then she went on from then like the rest of us needing forgiveness for her sin?

Interesting question..in other words, how did Marys decendancy from fallen Adam and Eve disappear up until she had Jesus, then reappear again as fallen humanity in need of forgiveness? We would have to judge Mary according to her spacific sins that had not been committed, to declare her sinless. Instead of what the Bible says of the condition of the whole human race as sinful since the fall of Adam. I think the Catholics have this backwards...she became sinless in the eyes of Jesus the moment He became her saviour when He died and rose from the dead.. for all of us including His mother Mary. She was not made sinless, then after Jesus birth, made to have the ability to sin. What a cruel joke that would be for that to happen to anybody.

[cherokeehippie]

Statues of "mary" makes me shudder! especially ones that 'bleed'...creepy...to me...it's obvious it's really pagan mother goddess worship with a veneer of 'christianty'...also...worship of saints, icons, etc...in fact...St. Christopher was not a christian saint...but was a giant with doglike face....in other words,...a nephilim!!!

http://www.geocities.com/age_of_giants/ancient_giants/christopher.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Christopher

[Father Rick]

[/font][/size]
While this sounds good-- it actually contradicts certain Biblical principles.

I am afraid you are mistaken -
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
You will note the verses are in present tense - NOT future.
I agree that we are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. That was not the point I was saying you are mistaken on... but rather your interpretation of the implications of that fact.

You stated that because you are seated with Christ that you have no need of asking someone else to pray for you. That is errorneous, and your current post actually acknowledges such.

Scripture also clearly states that there is only ONE mediator between man and God - then man Jesus Christ. So Mary cannot be a mediator any more than my dead aunt Nellie can.

Was any mention made whatsoever of Mary as a mediator?



Scripture is clear that we are to pray for one another. Scripture is also clear that we need each others prayers. Certainly we call can, and do, pray for ourselves as well... but that is only one piece of the puzzle, not the whole puzzle.

I am in no way, shape or form saying we shouldn't pray for one another, or that we don't need each others prayer. But asking for someone who is NOT divine and has been dead for more than 2,000 years is not a biblical principal, nor is it supported anywhere in scripture.


Scripture is specific that both angels and saints (the 24 elders) in heaven offer up our prayers to God. (Rev 5:8, Rev 8:3-4).

Scripture does not explain how this happens, only that it does happen.

And since those that John saw were in heaven already, then yes, those who have been there for 2000 years are apparently doing this.

None of us are an island unto ourselves-- especially when it comes to our life in Christ. Rather, we are all part of the same body... each part dependant upon the others.

While we are alive on this earth - that is true. Again there is no biblical example or proof or direction to pray to dead people to help us.
Scripture states that we are to pray for one another... also that we are to bear one another's burdens There is nothing anywhere in scripture that says this stops once we enter heaven.

In Revelation 7:13-14 we have a very specific instance of one of the elders (not an angel) holding a conversation with John, so scriptural they can be aware of what is happening on earth and even communicate with people on earth.

Actually, most of the the original 12 apostles are not mentioned after Acts 2. Yet they played key roles in building the Church around the world as scripture says, the church was built upon "the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, Jesus Christ, Himself, being the chief cornerstone." So, just because someone isn't talked about after a specific point in scripture doesn't mean that they weren't important.


The foundation of the Apostles (New Testament Writings) and the Prophets (Old Testament writings) has nothing to do with Mary - she was not an apostle nor prophet. The old argument -

"Just because it wasn't mentioned, doesn't mean it didn't happen"

Is flawed logically, and I know of no theologian who would support such a supposition.
No... scripture does NOT say that the Church is built on the "New Testament writings and the Old Testament writings". That is changing what is actually written... it specifically says "the foundation of the apostles and prophets". Scripture shows both apostles and prophets in the New Testament active in the work of establishing the Church. And while Mary was neither an apostle or prophet, she did have a definite influence on the work of the apostles... as I pointed out in my previous post. It was Mary's story, told to Luke, that is recorded by him in the gospel that bears his name.

As to "just because it's not mentioned doesn't mean it didn't happen"... actually, scripture itself records that there aren't enough books to record all the things Jesus did.

AND... we know for a fact that there are many things that occurred that were recorded by others that are not recorded in scripture. And most reputable scholars acknowledge the fact that are a variety of historical facts that these other writings record that scripture simply doesn't mention. The works of Josephus, for instance, is quite widely used by Biblical scholars to give understanding/context to New Testament events.

We also know that Mary had an influence in the writing of the New Testament. Luke specifically says that the information in his gospel came from "eyewitnesses"... and he tells the story of things that happened when Mary was alone (the angel appearing, etc.). So, who was the "eyewitness" that he got his information from?

Again, certainly Mary WAS blessed, and certainly she told her story that is recorded in the Gospels - James was an "eye witness" to thins that he shared with Luke also - it doesn't make him divine - it makes both of them eye witnesses - nothing more, nothing less.

Who said anything about Mary or anyone else being divine? You are arguing points that haven't been made...

As to the "eyewitness", yes, James was an eyewitness to some of the events Luke records... but there are a number of events Luke records that ONLY Mary could have been eyewitness to. This was my point... and one that is clearly supported by scripture. Therefore, as I proposed, Mary DID have an influence on the foundations of the Church on events that occurred after Acts 2-- such as the writing of the Gospel of Luke.
It could only have been Mary. Church history records Luke and Paul, while travelling together, spending time in the same city in which Mary was living... so it only makes sense that she discussed with the two of them her testimony, which Luke later recorded under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Which Mary???

There are only three mentions of a Mary in the Epistles -



Acts 1:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=1&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)
These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
Acts 1:13-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=1&verse=13&end_verse=15&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Acts 1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=1&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Acts 12:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=12&verse=12&version=50&context=verse)
So, when he had considered this, he came to the house of Mary, the mother of John whose surname was Mark, where many were gathered together praying.
Acts 12:11-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=12&verse=11&end_verse=13&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Acts 12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=12&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Romans 16:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=16&verse=6&version=50&context=verse)
Greet Mary, who labored much for us.
Romans 16:5-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=16&verse=5&end_verse=7&version=50&context=context) (in Context)
So, which Mary was the third? The scripture doesn't say.

Sorry - you're placing way too much emphasis on a very blessed, very honorable and NEVER divine dead woman. Who might be in the cloud of witnesses, but there's no indication in the NT that that cloud of witnesses does anything other than witness.
A bit of distraction from the point here...

Yes, scripture does record that there were at least 3 Mary's, two of whom were actually sisters.

However as to "which" Mary... the Mary in referred to is the ONLY Mary that could have been an eyewitness to the events of Mary, the mother of Jesus, when she was alone with the angel and other such events-- that is Mary.

Again, you throw out a "red herring" of Mary being considered "divine"... yet that has not been mentioned or argued by anyone here, nor is it considered to be so by Catholics.

As to placing too much emphasis on her... well, scripture says that all generations will call her blessed, so doing that is Biblical.

For some comparison, she is actually mentioned roughly 50 times in scripture, while the apostle James (who served as the head of the Church of Jerusalem) is only mentioned about 35.... Silas 21, Barnabas 33, Stephen 11, Thomas 11, Timothy 25... In other words, scripture discusses her more than many of the evangelists/apostles who were instrumental in the founding of the church. To therefore discuss her more than these is actually in keeping with the pattern in scripture.

[pgp_protector]

sir,if the catholics are our brothers and sisters,doesn't that make her our mother?:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

I would think she like everyone else would be our Sister in Christ.

[pinetree]

father Rick..
when you have a moment..:)

Do you think Mary was sinless,in the same manner Jesus was?
Thank you!:thumbsup:

[Father Rick]

father Rick..
when you have a moment..:)

Do you think Mary was sinless,in the same manner Jesus was?
Thank you!:thumbsup:No, I do not...

As I have already said quite clearly, while Roman Catholics hold to the view of the Immaculate Conception, Old Catholics do not.

[lismore]

According to the bible Mary:

Admits she needed a saviour {Luke 1:47}

Made a sin offerring at the temple {Luke 2:24}.

IMO Immaculate deception not immaculate conception.

[pinetree]

No, I do not...

As I have already said quite clearly, while Roman Catholics hold to the view of the Immaculate Conception, Old Catholics do not.
Thanks for you reply..

It might suprise you,that my wife and I often enjoy,EWTN...:thumbsup:

Who can not be blessed hearing Father Groeschel!?

Also,father Rutler!

And the web prieists,and lots of great music,on the network.:)

Nice chatting,pinetree.:wave:

[Father Rick]

According to the bible Mary:

Admits she needed a saviour {Luke 1:47}

Made a sin offerring at the temple {Luke 2:24}.

IMO Immaculate deception not immaculate conception.While it is true that Mary acknowledged "God [her] Savior" (Luke 1:47) the "sin offering" of Luke 2:24 was simply to remove "ceremonial uncleanness" according to Leviticus when it is commanded. It is the same offering that was given at the end of every woman's monthy menstrual cycle as well as after birth... not for any sin actually committed.

The passage states it was done "to fulfill the Law" in the same way there were many things Jesus did to "fulfill the Law". Obviously the fact that He did such did not mean He had sin... and the fact that Mary offered such a sacrifice cannot be taken as proof Mary had sin. You'll have to look to other passages to prove your pov.

[Father Rick]

Thanks for you reply..

It might suprise you,that my wife and I often enjoy,EWTN...:thumbsup:

Who can not be blessed hearing Father Groeschel!?

Also,father Rutler!

And the web prieists,and lots of great music,on the network.:)

Nice chatting,pinetree.:wave:As you're probably aware... Father Groeschel is C.F.R.

[New_Wineskin]

quote
why cant catholics admit it..said with all do respect..:)

they talk about here like a diety,and they do pray to her,we have all seen that..

They say things like..go to our lady ,she will comfort and guide you,etc..:o

While I was growing up Catholic , I was told , "Don't worry about Jesus ... Mary will get you in under her skirt ."

[icedtea]

True.

[Father Rick]

quote
why cant catholics admit it..said with all do respect..:)

they talk about here like a diety,and they do pray to her,we have all seen that..

They say things like..go to our lady ,she will comfort and guide you,etc..:o

While I was growing up Catholic , I was told , "Don't worry about Jesus ... Mary will get you in under her skirt ."
We know... you've made that statement numerous times....

But such a statement is like saying "Charismatics believe in an angel named Emma"...

Just look at all the debates over Bentley here on this forum (and please, let's NOT turn this thread into yet another Bentley debate). Just because some hold to that belief does NOT make such the belief of the group as a whole, nor does it make it the official theology of the group.

Within every denomination there are extremists. Within every group there are those on the fringe.

[New_Wineskin]

quote
We know... you've made that statement numerous times....

But such a statement is like saying "Charismatics believe in an angel named Emma"...

Just look at all the debates over Bentley here on this forum (and please, let's NOT turn this thread into yet another Bentley debate). Just because some hold to that belief does NOT make such the belief of the group as a whole, nor does it make it the official theology of the group.

Within every denomination there are extremists. Within every group there are those on the fringe.

You know that Catholics think that way yet you make it appear that I am only talking about an isolated situation . This isn't about extremists but typical Catholics raised that way and their leaders know that they think that way and will not step in to change their minds to what you think is the "official" way . You know that but try to have people think that you know otherwise - *if* you know anything about Catholics to begin with .

The very fact that the leadership knows that the people think these things and won't make statements from the vatican to be repeated in the meetings ( "masses" ) to stop it shows that those ideas are an acceptable part of the group's ideology .

This thinking isn't hidden amongst themselves . The appologists ( especially those who were not borrn and raised as Catholic ) will say otherwise .

[Father Rick]

quote
We know... you've made that statement numerous times....

But such a statement is like saying "Charismatics believe in an angel named Emma"...

Just look at all the debates over Bentley here on this forum (and please, let's NOT turn this thread into yet another Bentley debate). Just because some hold to that belief does NOT make such the belief of the group as a whole, nor does it make it the official theology of the group.

Within every denomination there are extremists. Within every group there are those on the fringe.

You know that Catholics think that way yet you make it appear that I am only talking about an isolated situation . This isn't about extremists but typical Catholics raised that way and their leaders know that they think that way and will not step in to change their minds to what you think is the "official" way . You know that but try to have people think that you know otherwise - *if* you know anything about Catholics to begin with .

The very fact that the leadership knows that the people think these things and won't make statements from the vatican to be repeated in the meetings ( "masses" ) to stop it shows that those ideas are an acceptable part of the group's ideology .

This thinking isn't hidden amongst themselves . The appologists ( especially those who were not borrn and raised as Catholic ) will say otherwise .First, I was not "born and raised Catholic"... and apologists I know who were not "born and raised Catholic" agree with me. Personally, I actually spent years in seminary, as well as untold hours of personal study. I wrote a catechism for Old Catholics and serve as an advisor on curriculum for an Old Catholic seminary-- so yes, I do know a thing or two about what Catholics believe.

As to your statement about "don't worry about Jesus... Mary will get you in under her skirt".... well, you're the ONLY person I have encountered where there was a statement made to "not worry about Jesus". In fact, such a statement completely contradicts Catholic theology.

You ask why there's not some kind of official statement made to stop such a belief. Actually, since a belief of "not worrying about Jesus" is rather rare, I doubt there will be an official statement made to 1 billion people to handle the problems of a few.

The catechism of the RC (as well as the OC) teach that salvation is in Jesus-- not in any other. Yes, there are those who are poorly catechized-- unfortunately too many. And yes, the leadership do seek to better catechize the people so they know proper theology better.

And there WAS official statements from leadership to address these issues. One of the issues of Vatican II (in the mid '60's) was an increase in making certain that the laity have a better understanding of scripture in both theological and devotional settings, etc.

Considering your age, etc. I can almost guarantee that the things your mother told you were either during or shortly after the time of Vatican II... before the things these things had time to be fully implemented, during a time when many of the laity didn't have a good grasp of theology, unfortunately. Did it ever occur to you that your mother may have been wrong? That she may have been good intentioned, but just didn't know any better?

[Faithful Love]

quote

While I was growing up Catholic , I was told , "Don't worry about Jesus ... Mary will get you in under her skirt ."


Yep, we were told that, too.

I never came out of the confessional once without having at least three Hail Mary's as part of my penance.

What Fr. Rick is saying may be catholic theory but it sure isn't catholic practice.

One man from our local catholic church has a bumper sticker on his car (along with the rosary hanging from his rearview mirror and a bobble-head Mary in the rear window) that says: "Can't find Jesus? Don't worry-ask His Mother!":doh:

[Tsadde]

Beware of heading for the other ditch.

To venerate Mary to the point of making her a god (which was easy for pagan converts who had previously worshipped female deities to do) or to denigrate Mary almost to point of telling "yo Mama..." jokes about Jesus' mother (the greatest female prophet of all time who delivered the ultimate message from God) are equally heinous sins.

All generations shall call her blessed -- that's revering her. Mary deserves no less respect than the angel Gabriel gave her, "Hail, favoured one! The Lord is with you. You have found favour with the Lord."

[MoNiCa4316]

hi everyone, I'm a Catholic so this thread caught my attention :wave:here are some of my thoughts on Mary..
when I was a Protestant, I wondered if Catholics worship her. Sometimes, it seemed that way to me. When I began to feel lead to the Catholic church, I knew that this is a barrier I'd have to overcome.. one day, I bought a rosary, and decided to try the prayer. I was so nervous at first, I didn't want to offend God in any way... But when I began to pray the Rosary, I got the impression that both Jesus and Mary were listening to me together :) I realized that there is no competition between them. When we honour Mary, we are honouring Her Son, Jesus.

As Catholics, we don't worship Mary. We just show her respect. For us, bowing, praying, etc, does not constitute worship. Worship for us is defined by our intentions..what's in our hearts..not in externals. It is no one's intention to worship Mary. So that doesn't happen :)
We ask her to pray for us because her intercession is powerful; as we know "the prayer of a righteous man avails much".

I see some people here saying that Mary too was saved. Well, yes, we believe this too. She was indeed saved from sin and death by Jesus :) but we believe that for her, this happened in a slightly different way than for us. We are saved by having our sins forgiven. In Mary's case, she was saved by God preventing her from sinning in the first place. This was still done by grace. As the prayer goes.. "Hail Mary, full of grace".

In my journey to Catholicism, I've learned to love Mary as my Mother..she's the Mother of the Church, which is Christ's Body. I do not worship her.. but she has helped me much with her intercession.

God bless

monica

[DiscipleWhomJesusLoves]

Every time I hear people say that Mary is our Mother (capital M), I just want to puke.

Biblically speaking Sarah/Covenant of Grace, the free Jerusalem from above, that's our "mother":

Galatians 4:21-27

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar -- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children -- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

"Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
NKJV

[He put me back together]

http://www.americanpresbyterianchurch.org/Mother&Son-Babylon.gifhttp://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n212/dementshun/purgatory.jpg

[Father Rick]

Your point?

The images you post show that an image of a mother holding her child resembles.... an image of a mother holding her child...

[SharonL]

I don't know why these conversations about Mary keep going on and on and on - they only cause strife.

No one is going to change their mind - those who believe that Mary has been lifted to the high position of almost equal to Jesus will always believe it and those who believe that Mary was Blessed but does not hold this high position will always believe that.

Can't we just accept that our beliefs are different and respect each other's beliefs - the beliefs that are not spelled out clearly in the Bible will never have a conclusion.

[romans6and6]

[quote=Father Rick;47798950]Actually while it's common in the movies, and it may happen in real life, I've never heard such given.[quote]

I was raised Catholic and I was given "Hail Mary's" to say as a penance after confession.

Penance, by the way in not scriptural, repentance is.

Jesus' first message was "repent and believe the gospel." John the Baptist proclaimed "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand." Peter preached repentance on the day of Pentecost. Paul said that he preached everywhere "repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

However, the Catholic way of salvation includes a system of works through their sacraments, which of course includes physically eating Jesus after their priest miraculously changes ordinary bread and wine into the flesh and blood of deity in their act of transubstantiation.

In one post you said that repentance and penance are the same things. They are not the same things in definition.

[romans6and6]

The worshipping of Mary was gradually adopted though the centuries by Roman Catholicism through the traditions of the church fathers. The Council of Ephesus in 431 adopted the term for Mary as “The Mother of God.” This term along with the “Queen of Heaven” is consistant in both ancient pagan religion and Roman Catholicism. The rosary copied from the Hindus and Mohammadans and others, was officially adopted in 1090.

In fact, Alphonsus Liguori, a Roman Catholic writer, who was canonized a saint in 1839 by Pope Gregory XIV, and who was later declared a “doctor” of the Catholic Church by Pope Pius IX, described an imaginary seen about Mary. He said a sinful man saw two ladders hanging from heaven. Mary was at the top of one and Jesus was at the top of the other. When the sinner tried to climb the ladder that went up to Jesus first, he was faced with the angry face of Jesus. But, when he climbed Mary’s ladder, he ascended easily and was openly welcomed by Mary who brought him to Heaven and presented him to Christ!

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in 1854, which states that Mary, in the first instance of her conception, was preserved from all stain of original sin. In 1931, Pope Pius XI reaffirmed the doctrine of Mary as “The Mother of God.” The dogma of the “Assumption of the Virgin Mary” was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII in 1950, which states that Mary’s body did not see corruption, but that after her death she was physically taken up to Heaven where she now reigns as the “Queen of Heaven.”

[Father Rick]

Penance, by the way in not scriptural, repentance is. ...

Jesus' first message was "repent and believe the gospel." John the Baptist proclaimed "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand." Peter preached repentance on the day of Pentecost. Paul said that he preached everywhere "repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

...

In one post you said that repentance and penance are the same things. They are not the same things in definition or in Catholic dogma..

Penance, by definition, is:an act of self-abasement, mortification, or devotion performed to show sorrow or repentance for sin
penance (remorse for your past conduct)
In other words, it is an "act of repentance".

Jesus was very blunt with the religious leaders of his day:
8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. That is both the definition AND the dogma... that one is to repent, and that true repentance will show forth fruit.

The very scriptures that you listed show that one is to BOTH 1) repent and 2) believe. Belief, by itself, is not sufficient-- for even the demons believe (James 2). Rather, belief must be accompanied by corresponding action-- for true repentance will "show forth fruit".

James 2:14-26 14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. ...26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. So, as is clearly seen, your statements here are completely off-base... not to mention off topic of the thread.

If you would like to start a separate thread arguing these issues, please feel free to do.

[Father Rick]

The worshipping of Mary was gradually adopted though the centuries by Roman Catholicism through the traditions of the church fathers. Well... you start your post here with a complete falsehood, so if this is the foundation of what you are going to argue... well...

Catholic theology is quite clear that the worship of anything or anyone other than God is idolatry and is wrong.

The Council of Ephesus in 431 adopted the term for Mary as “The Mother of God.” It is correct that the term "Mother of God" (which is actually a rough English translation of "theotokos"--literally "God-bearer") was/is applied to Mary. This is because it is a Biblically accurate title. 1) Jesus is God and always has been God. At no point in time has He ever not been God. 2) Mary is Jesus' mother.

To deny that Mary is the mother of God is to deny that Jesus is God.

This term along with the “Queen of Heaven” is consistant in both ancient pagan religion and Roman Catholicism. The term "Queen of Heaven" is actually a term derived from the concept of "queen mother"... that is, that the mother of a King, even though she is not the actual queen, is treated with respect and honor... because of her role in the life of the King. This concept has/had nothing to do with pagan religions in any way whatsoever but rather was a Jewish concept in practice at least back to the time of King David... and is even mentioned in scripture in 1 Kings when the "queen mother" during the time of Asa was removed due to her turning away from God.

As applied to Mary, it simply states that if Jesus is truly King of Heaven, then Mary (his mother) would be the "queen mother".
The rosary copied from the Hindus and Mohammadans and others, was officially adopted in 1090, and it has 9 times as many “Hail Mary’s” as “Our Father’sAgain, false information...

The rosary did not derive from any form of pagan prayer beads, but actually originated in the praying of the "Liturgy of the hours" in which one prayed through all 150 Psalms daily. Since the laity didn't know all the Psalms, they would substitute "Our Father's". Over time, Hail Mary's were substitued for the Our Father's and it has evolved so that currently there are 10 (not 9) times as many Hail Mary's. One must also recognize that it is a form of meditative prayer-- one in which one is reciting words by rote (basically to keep the mind focused) while one is meditating on events in the life of Christ and how those events apply to one's life.

As to them being copied from the "Mohammedans"... well, there is evidence of early versions of them in Europe before Mohammed was even born.

As to it be "officially adopted" in 1090.... again, a falsehood. In fact, Church Tradition states the idea was given in a vision to St. Benedict in 1214. Well obviously, there would be no such tradition if it was something "officially adopted" 200 years before.

I'm not certain where you've gotten your "facts"... but as you can see, most of them are more on the lines of fiction. You may want to seriously consider going back and re-checking your sources before using them to malign others.



In fact, Alphonsus Liguori, a Roman Catholic writer, who was canonized a saint in 1839 by Pope Gregory XIV, and who was later declared a “doctor” of the Catholic Church by Pope Pius IX, described an imaginary seen about Mary. He said a sinful man saw two ladders hanging from heaven. Mary was at the top of one and Jesus was at the top of the other. When the sinner tried to climb the ladder that went up to Jesus first, he was faced with the angry face of Jesus. But, when he climbed Mary’s ladder, he ascended easily and was openly welcomed by Mary who brought him to Heaven and presented him to Christ!I haven't checked the validity of your statements here... so I won't address whether or not this is a case of wrong information.

However, I will point out that just because someone is recognized for being used by God in one area does NOT mean that every area of that person's life/belief is accepted.

Martin Luther, for instance, was a racist who thought that the book of James should be taken out of the Bible since he believed it was not from God. As a Protestant, I would assume that you over look those things and hold to other portions of his teachings. (BTW, you should read Luther's writings on Mary. You apparently overlook those as well.)

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in 1854, which states that Mary, in the first instance of her conception, was preserved from all stain of original sin. This is accurate...
In 1931, Pope Pius XI reaffirmed the doctrine of Mary as “The Mother of God.” Again, true... in fact a good thing, as he was reaffirming that Jesus was (and is) God at all points in time including in Mary's womb.The dogma of the “Assumption of the Virgin Mary” was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII in 1950, which states that Mary’s body did not see corruption, but that after her death she was physically taken up to Heaven where she now reigns as the “Queen of Heaven.”Again... mixed up information. Your statement here combines "the Assumption" with "the Dormition". The Eastern Orthodox hold to the Dormition-- that is that Mary died, then her body was physically taken up to heaven. The Assumption, however, states that before she died Mary was taken up to heaven-- just as Enoch and Elijah were caught up to heaven.

Since the earliest days of Church history, there has been tradition of such happening-- with the East and the West disagreeing as to exactly which took place. There is Biblical precedence (Elijah and Enoch) so such would certainly be possible.



As I've shown here... much of the information you have is wrong. Some parts just a little wrong... other parts really off-base. I can only assume you got your info from someone else-- who either was just in error or may have been intentionally misleading. There's no way to know. If you go back and do some serious study of these issues you may find that a number of your views adjust as you learn more.

[MoNiCa4316]

Every time I hear people say that Mary is our Mother (capital M), I just want to puke.

Biblically speaking Sarah/Covenant of Grace, the free Jerusalem from above, that's our "mother":

Galatians 4:21-27

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar -- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children -- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

"Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
NKJV

I think that's speaking of the old covenant..before Christ..

Mary is our Mother because of Revelation 12:

Revelation 12

The Woman and the Dragon

1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short." 13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

[icedtea]

Everywhere I have read, that refers to Israel, not Mary.

[romans6and6]

Penance, by definition, is:

In other words, it is an "act of repentance".

Jesus was very blunt with the religious leaders of his day:
That is both the definition AND the dogma... that one is to repent, and that true repentance will show forth fruit.

The very scriptures that you listed show that one is to BOTH 1) repent and 2) believe. Belief, by itself, is not sufficient-- for even the demons believe (James 2). Rather, belief must be accompanied by corresponding action-- for true repentance will "show forth fruit".
So, as is clearly seen, your statements here are completely off-base... not to mention off topic of the thread.

If you would like to start a separate thread arguing these issues, please feel free to do.


I will use Noah Webster’s definition of penance and repent.

Penance:
The suffering, labor or pain to which a person voluntarily subjects himself, or which is imposed on him by authority as a punishment for his faults, or as an expression of penitence; such as fasting, flagellation, wearing chains, & c. Penance is one of the seven sacraments of the Catholic church.

Repent:
In theology, to sorrow or be pained for sin, as a violation of God’s holy law, a dishonor to his character and government, and the foulest ingratitude to a Being of infinite benevolence.
Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Luke xiii. Acts iii.

Strong’s concordance definition of repent:
To think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction)

And "repentance" in the Strong’s speaks of a reversal.

The New Testament Scriptures speaks of repentance not penance. There is a difference. God requires repentance toward God, (which means to turn from the world and sin and turn towards God which includes godly sorrow for our past sins and a coming to ourselves and turning from them), and then faith toward our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As Jesus said, repent and believe the gospel.

One of my favorite parables in the Bible is what we call the Parable of the Prodigal Son. Here was a man who turned his back upon his father, and wasted his inheritance on “riotous” living. When he finally came to himself, he repented and went back and told his father that he was not even worthy to be called his son, and that he would be willing to be one of his servants for the rest of his life.

But his father, who is likened to our heavenly Father, would have none of that. He did not then ask him to do penance for all of the bad things that he did. No he was instantly forgiven and restored to his full office of sonship. He put a ring on his finger, and sandals on his feet. He clothed him with his finest apparel, killed the fatted calf, and called for a celebration, because his son who was once spiritually dead was now alive again.

Again the Catholic church and their priests tell their confessors to do a “Penance” for their sins, which includes “Hail Mary’s.”

But the biblical way of salvation is repent and believe the gospel. Turn from your evil ways. Come to yourself, and return back unto the Father.

Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:10:
“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.”

We are created in Christ Jesus, not evolved through the sacraments which includes infant baptism, confession to a priest (penance), and physically eating Jesus in the Mass. And all those who are created in Christ Jesus are so by His workmanship, and not by their good works. And all those who are created in Christ Jesus exhibit those good works after salvation – thus “created…in Christ…unto good works.”

[Father Rick]

Everywhere I have read, that refers to Israel, not Mary.
Modern Protestant scholars try to attribute the "woman" to being Mary... however that is not the manner in which the passage has been interpretted throughout the vast majority of Church history. Usually, these scholars try to draw parallels between this vision and Joseph's dream of the sun, moon, and stars as allegory of Israel... however this can only be done by doing some serious stretching.

[Father Rick]

Romans6and6...

First, you may not be aware that Noah Webster, in his dictionary (published in 1828), actually included one of the largest number of "theological" definitions of any dictionary of the day... and those "theological" definitions were actually strong influence by his personal theology. The preface of that dictionary actually makes it quite clear that he had a deliberate agenda in including such things. In other words, not true definitions but bias.

Second, Merriam-Webster's dictionary-- which I quoted above-- it the expanded/corrected version of Noah Webster's dictionary, including updated definitions as word use has evolved.

Third, you left out (either intentionally or accidently I don't know) the 2nd part of the definition from Noah Webster's dictionary. I'll paste the whole thing here:

penance (http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/penance)


PEN'ANCE, n.
1. The suffering, labor or pain to which a person voluntarily subjects himself, or which is imposed on him by authority as a punishment for his faults, or as an expression of penitence; such as fasting, flagellation, wearing chains, &c. Penance is one of the seven sacraments of the Romish church.
2. Repentance.
So.. to say "penance" means the same as "repentance"... well, even the source you are using-- one that is notably biased-- shows that to be true.

Again, you may need to check your resources a bit more carefully. Continually posting wrong information does nothing to support your stance.

[romans6and6]

Well... you start your post here with a complete falsehood, so if this is the foundation of what you are going to argue... well...

Catholic theology is quite clear that the worship of anything or anyone other than God is idolatry and is wrong.

It is correct that the term "Mother of God" (which is actually a rough English translation of "theotokos"--literally "God-bearer") was/is applied to Mary. This is because it is a Biblically accurate title. 1) Jesus is God and always has been God. At no point in time has He ever not been God. 2) Mary is Jesus' mother.

To deny that Mary is the mother of God is to deny that Jesus is God.

The term "Queen of Heaven" is actually a term derived from the concept of "queen mother"... that is, that the mother of a King, even though she is not the actual queen, is treated with respect and honor... because of her role in the life of the King. This concept has/had nothing to do with pagan religions in any way whatsoever but rather was a Jewish concept in practice at least back to the time of King David... and is even mentioned in scripture in 1 Kings when the "queen mother" during the time of Asa was removed due to her turning away from God.

As applied to Mary, it simply states that if Jesus is truly King of Heaven, then Mary (his mother) would be the "queen mother".
Again, false information...

The rosary did not derive from any form of pagan prayer beads, but actually originated in the praying of the "Liturgy of the hours" in which one prayed through all 150 Psalms daily. Since the laity didn't know all the Psalms, they would substitute "Our Father's". Over time, Hail Mary's were substitued for the Our Father's and it has evolved so that currently there are 10 (not 9) times as many Hail Mary's. One must also recognize that it is a form of meditative prayer-- one in which one is reciting words by rote (basically to keep the mind focused) while one is meditating on events in the life of Christ and how those events apply to one's life.

As to them being copied from the "Mohammedans"... well, there is evidence of early versions of them in Europe before Mohammed was even born.

As to it be "officially adopted" in 1090.... again, a falsehood. In fact, Church Tradition states the idea was given in a vision to St. Benedict in 1214. Well obviously, there would be no such tradition if it was something "officially adopted" 200 years before.

I'm not certain where you've gotten your "facts"... but as you can see, most of them are more on the lines of fiction. You may want to seriously consider going back and re-checking your sources before using them to malign others.


I haven't checked the validity of your statements here... so I won't address whether or not this is a case of wrong information.

However, I will point out that just because someone is recognized for being used by God in one area does NOT mean that every area of that person's life/belief is accepted.

Martin Luther, for instance, was a racist who thought that the book of James should be taken out of the Bible since he believed it was not from God. As a Protestant, I would assume that you over look those things and hold to other portions of his teachings. (BTW, you should read Luther's writings on Mary. You apparently overlook those as well.)
This is accurate...
Again, true... in fact a good thing, as he was reaffirming that Jesus was (and is) God at all points in time including in Mary's womb.Again... mixed up information. Your statement here combines "the Assumption" with "the Dormition". The Eastern Orthodox hold to the Dormition-- that is that Mary died, then her body was physically taken up to heaven. The Assumption, however, states that before she died Mary was taken up to heaven-- just as Enoch and Elijah were caught up to heaven.

Since the earliest days of Church history, there has been tradition of such happening-- with the East and the West disagreeing as to exactly which took place. There is Biblical precedence (Elijah and Enoch) so such would certainly be possible.



As I've shown here... much of the information you have is wrong. Some parts just a little wrong... other parts really off-base. I can only assume you got your info from someone else-- who either was just in error or may have been intentionally misleading. There's no way to know. If you go back and do some serious study of these issues you may find that a number of your views adjust as you learn more.


Well, you may call it a complete falsehood for those to say that Catholics do worship Mary, but I beg to differ. They make statues of her and bow down to kiss her feet. They pray to her in their rosaries. In May, as we used to do in grade school, they make a crown of flowers and gently place it on a statue of Mary and sing the worship song "Ave Maria." By every other definition, that is worship.

And why such emphasis on Mary? They take one scripture where the angel greets Mary and says "Hail Mary," and turns it into Mary worship, the Immaculate Conception, the bodily assumption of Mary into Heaven, statues, the rosary, and there is even a push now to make her a "Co-Redemtrix" with Christ. BTW, hail means "greetings" in the Greek, not worship.

And as far as the Assumption of Mary, they not only believe that she was conceived without a sin nature, that after Christ she had no other children, (Perpetual Virgin is the language, I believe, one of her titles), but that she was bodily taken up to Heaven and crowned as the Queen of Heaven before she died. Amazing.

[romans6and6]

Romans6and6...

First, you may not be aware that Noah Webster, in his dictionary (published in 1828), actually included one of the largest number of "theological" definitions of any dictionary of the day... and those "theological" definitions were actually strong influence by his personal theology. The preface of that dictionary actually makes it quite clear that he had a deliberate agenda in including such things. In other words, not true definitions but bias.

Second, Merriam-Webster's dictionary-- which I quoted above-- it the expanded/corrected version of Noah Webster's dictionary, including updated definitions as word use has evolved.

Third, you left out (either intentionally or accidently I don't know) the 2nd part of the definition from Noah Webster's dictionary. I'll paste the whole thing here:
So.. to say "penance" means the same as "repentance"... well, even the source you are using-- one that is notably biased-- shows that to be true.

Again, you may need to check your resources a bit more carefully. Continually posting wrong information does nothing to support your stance.


Yes I did unintentionally remit the one word second definition of penance.

BTW, I would take that "bias" definition of one of our great founding fathers any day over these modern day enlightened scholars, who some, in their great intelligence, probably believe that we evolved from apes, as I was taught in my Catholic school. And I thank God for our great founding fathers like Noah Webster. If it were not for their wisdom, our nation would have never become the greatest in world history. We would either be subjected to the Protestant Church of England, or subservient to the mother Church of Rome.

[Father Rick]

Yes I did unintentionally remit the one word second definition of penance.

BTW, I would take that "bias" definition of one of our great founding fathers any day over these modern day enlightened scholars, who some, in their great intelligence, probably believe that we evolved from apes, as I was taught in my Catholic school. And I thank God for our great founding fathers like Noah Webster. If it were not for their wisdom, our nation would have never become the greatest in world history. We would either be subjected to the Protestant Church of England, or subservient to the mother Church of Rome.Since when did being a "founding father of America" in any way qualify someone in the area of theology?

At least three of the fifty-five founding fathers of the USA (Benjamin Franklin, Benjamin Rush, and Hugh Williamson) were actually self-professed Deists, not Christians.

BTW...Twenty-eight were Episcopalian/Anglican and two were Roman Catholic.

[romans6and6]

As to it be "officially adopted" in 1090.... again, a falsehood. In fact, Church Tradition states the idea was given in a vision to St. Benedict in 1214. Well obviously, there would be no such tradition if it was something "officially adopted" 200 years before.

I'm not certain where you've gotten your "facts"... but as you can see, most of them are more on the lines of fiction. You may want to seriously consider going back and re-checking your sources before using them to malign others.

Your are right. In 1090, the rosary was introduced by Peter the Hermit.

Their beliefs have evolved through the centuries. You see how confusing they can be? Of course, not confusing to their apologists. Even upon death they can offer no sure hope of eternal life, for one may have to purge themselves in purgatory for several years as their still alive loved ones are encouraged to offer "Masses" to get their poor dead loved ones out of purgatory.

What a cruel system of burdens and bondage that they have devised, over the centuries, of course.

[ImmersionX]

Here's the real question to the OP:

Who here thinks, actually thinks, that anyone who "worships" Mary as the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, will be burning in hell due to this very fact?????????

If you don't think that...then why such adamant rebuttal by a lot of protestants concerning this subject, not just here but everywhere?

Peace.

[ImmersionX]

Why anyone would want to communicate with anyone beyond this earth other than the Holy Trinity is beyond me!

Perhaps you answered you own question there eh?
;)

[romans6and6]

Since when did being a "founding father of America" in any way qualify someone in the area of theology?

At least three of the fifty-five founding fathers of the USA (Benjamin Franklin, Benjamin Rush, and Hugh Williamson) were actually self-professed Deists, not Christians.

BTW...Twenty-eight were Episcopalian/Anglican and two were Roman Catholic.


I did not say that. You are putting words in my mouth.

Out of all of the founding fathers, probably only one could be considered a Deist, Thomas Paine. Benjamin Franklin, even though he was one of the least religious of the founding fathers, was no Deist, as well as Benjamin Rush (one of my favorites), as one can see from below.

Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Statesman, author, scientist, and printer. He served as a diplomat to France and England. Governor of Pennsylvania, founder of the University of Pennsylvania, signed the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution.

“It was wonderful to see the change soon made in the manners of our inhabitants. From being thoughtless or indifferent about religion, it seemed as if all the world were growing religious, so that one could not walk thro’ the town in an evening without hearing psalms sung in different families of every street.”
In his autobiography about the effects of George Whitefield’s ministry.


“A bible and a newspaper in every house, a good school in every district – all studied and appreciated as they merit – are the principal support of virtue, morality, and civil liberty.”

“I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth – that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that ‘except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.’ I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages… I therefore beg leave to move – that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.”
In speech before the Continental Congress on June 28, 1787.


“THE BODY
of

BENJAMIN FRANKLIN

Printer

Like the cover of an old book,

Its contents torn out,

And stripped of its lettering and gilding

Lies here, food for worms;

Yet the work itself shall not be lost,

For it will (as he believed) appear once more,

In a new,

And more beautiful edition,

Corrected and amended

By the AUTHOR”

Engraved on his epitaph, which he wrote.

Benjamin Rush (1745-1813)
Physician, and known as the “Father of American Medicine.” Educator, and known as the “Father of Public Schools.” Public official, and philanthropist; member of the Continental Congress, and signer of The Declaration of Independence; Treasurer of the U.S. Mint under Presidents Adams, Jefferson, and Madison; Founder of the Pennsylvania Society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery; member of the Abolition Society, and Founder and President of the Philadelphia Bible Society. Considered by many at the time to be one of the three most influential Founding Fathers, along with Washington and Franklin.

“The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.”
Rush on education, 1798.


“Without religion, I believe that learning does real mischief to the morals and principles of mankind.”
In letter to John Armstrong, March 19, 1783.


“In contemplating the political institutions of the United States, I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes, and take so little pains to prevent them. We profess to be Republicans and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible.”
In essay on, “Defense of the Use of the Bible as a School Book.”


“I do not believe that the Constitution was the offspring of inspiration, but I am as perfectly satisfied that the Union of the States in its form and adoption is as much the work of a Divine Providence as any of the miracles recorded in the Old and New Testament.”
In letter to Elias Boundinot on July 9, 1788.


“Without the restraints of religion and soci