Focusing on Health/Wealth or Suffering/Sickness Doctrine

[Balance]

Which is closer to scripture?

Where is the balance?

Are the extreme teachings from either side right, or is there something that the VAST majority of Christian's embrace that is almost never spoken of here?

How about some real debate? That means a point/counter point discussion WITHOUT sarcasm, name calling and offensive language from either side.

Are we mature enough to do this? Time will tell.

[Balance]

I personally think there's no such doctrine from either side. But there are a proportionate few from both sides that hold those teachings and others have labeled them doctrines.

[Faithful Love]

Considering God calls sickness and poverty curses and tells us how to avoid them; and He calls health and wealth blessings and tells us how to have them, it would appear health & wealth is very biblical.

[JimfromOhio]

I voted and I will post my comments later :)

[BenAdam]

No Comment

[didaskalos]

His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
No sickness or poverty in heaven (they walk around on gold roads and use gems for doors).

[didaskalos]

We should not obsess about these "things" just like birds do not obsess about food. They just happen as a matter of course.
We should not obsess against them either.
Obsession is obsession.

[BenAdam]

We should not obsess about these "things" just like birds do not obsess about food. They just happen as a matter of course.
We should not obsess against them either.
Obsession is obsession.
good word dat!

[Balance]

We should not obsess about these "things" just like birds do not obsess about food. They just happen as a matter of course.
We should not obsess against them either.
Obsession is obsession.

true dat

[didaskalos]

I do wonder where we get the idea that "be content in whatever state you are in" means "do not try to improve your and your families plight."
We used to call those type of people lazy.
I do not think Paul intended for people to lay back and do nothing... IOWs become so spiritually minded that they are no earthly good.
All my children are better off that I was when I was their age. I am DELIGHTED by that. They all work hard and they all have spiritual side in varying degrees.
I think Paul meant that if you are hopelessly poor and cannnot escape... do not let that drag you down as being poor will do. I have been poor, and the hopelessness and frustration that comes with that existance can be very destructive to your outlook on life and attitude. I think he was addressing that. I really doubt he meant for us to just give up trying to better ourselves and our families. Just not become obsessed with it.

[dkbwarrior]

We should not obsess about these "things" just like birds do not obsess about food. They just happen as a matter of course.
We should not obsess against them either.
Obsession is obsession.

Yeah, dat.

Peace...

[map4]

I do wonder where we get the idea that "be content in whatever state you are in" means "do not try to improve your and your families plight."
We used to call those type of people lazy.
I do not think Paul intended for people to lay back and do nothing... IOWs become so spiritually minded that they are no earthly good.
All my children are better off that I was when I was their age. I am DELIGHTED by that. They all work hard and they all have spiritual side in varying degrees.
I think Paul meant that if you are hopelessly poor and cannnot escape... do not let that drag you down as being poor will do. I have been poor, and the hopelessness and frustration that comes with that existance can be very destructive to your outlook on life and attitude. I think he was addressing that. I really doubt he meant for us to just give up trying to better ourselves and our families. Just not become obsessed with it.

And Paul didn't stay in one state...

[JimfromOhio]

I have learned to understand the true nature of the Christian life which is unpredictable and expanding everyday. Bad things happen to everybody because we are living in a sinful world. Over the years, I have seen God's interventions that I thought they surely could happened but didn't since God had another plan. Everything that happens in our lives (including trials) somehow fits into the plan of God. Most of the time, God allows evil to happen, other times, God divinely intervene situations when He has a plan that will Glorify Him.

Its obvious the Bible explains that God didn't merely promise us that temporal good will come out of difficult situations but did promised that whatever we do during our daily activities, God will be with us with his powerful GRACE. In this life it is inevitable and it is useful because it produces the evidence of your true spiritual condition, humility and intimacy with God and allows God to put Himself on display in His grace.

One good example is Corrie ten Boom was schedule to die in Nazi Camp like the rest of family did, but came out of Nazi prison alive due to clerical error through God's divine intervention. Through Corrie ten Boom, God was glorified through Corrie's ministry through many years until the day she died. Her ministry is still alive even though she is no longer with us physically but she is in heaven.

Two of my favorite quotes I love are from Corrie ten Boom:
"God raises the level of the impossible."

"Trying to do the Lord's work in your own strength is the most confusing, exhausting, and tedious of all work. But when you are filled with the Holy Spirit, then the ministry of Jesus just flows out of you."

We have to remember that on this EARTH, we will struggle with many bad things that may happen to us.

Ecclesiastes 7:14
When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other. Therefore, a man cannot discover anything about his future.

Negative circumstances teach us dependence on His grace (John 15:1-5, 2 Corinthians 12:1-10) that whatever is happening makes us think of our own reflections, trying to look at it from the biblical and the personal viewpoint. Negative circumstances come to test the strength of our faith because they assist us in the knowledge of our own faith. (Genesis 22:1-18, Malachi 3:3-4, 1 Peter 1:6-9).

What some believe in is God of blessings (good life) while selectively ignoring other scriptures of the Bible. People just refused to see God allow evil to happen for His Glory. An average view of the Christian life is that it means deliverance from trouble. It is deliverance in trouble, which is very different. The bad events are circumscribed by a loving providence and God promises to use them all for His ultimate good for HIS GLORY. There is a verse in the Bible that God promises that there won’t be anything so bad happen to me that I am not able to bear it. God does everything--He governs everything. Faith is accepting God's Will.

One of the reasons I disagree with Word of Faith doctrines is because they don't believe in God allows that kind of suffering for Christians. They have this dreaming doctrines that encourage people to focus on the scriptures that sounds good and avoid other scriptures that sounds so negative and depressing. The fact of the matter is the visible providence of God has no respect of persons. It doesn't discriminate between believers and unbelievers. Plane crashes, boat sinkings, train accidents, car collisions, heart disease, cancer doesn't discriminate between a sinner and a saint, or between a sinner and a sinner.

Even though the word "suffering" have been mentioned many times throughout the Old and New Testaments. The concept of the unity of all things written in the Scriptures that God will reconcile all things (i.e. sufferings) unto Himself. Truth wounds through life's experiences as well as from the Word of God. The truth resolves some difficulties and creates more difficulties. Without sufferings, Pride will always gets in the way of God's glory. We suffer to keep down pride (2 Cor. 12:7). Suffering is a process as Scriptures said “We know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, proven character; and . . .” (Rom. 5:3-4). “Knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, that you may be perfect (mature) and complete, lacking in nothing” (Jam. 1:3-4).

Philippians 4:11-12 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.

I could go on but I will stop now. :)

[map4]

JimfromOhio,
What scripture says that God promises that there won't be anything so bad happen to us that we will not be able to bear it?

The only one I find about not being able to bear something is this:
1Corinthians 10:13 - No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man, but God is faithful who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

I have heard people say that He will not put anything on us that we are not able to bear...but I can't find the scripture??

[JimfromOhio]

JimfromOhio,
What scripture says that God promises that there won't be anything so bad happen to us that we will not be able to bear it?

The only one I find about not being able to bear something is this:
1Corinthians 10:13 - No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man, but God is faithful who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

I have heard people say that He will not put anything on us that we are not able to bear...but I can't find the scripture??

Let's start focusing on the word "GRACE" and forget the word "FAITH" for a bit.

Temptation to sin always come from many different directions by sin around us including trials. In James 1:12-13, he has been refering to trials with the Greek noun peirasmos which also uses the same word to refer to temptations.

The difference between a trial and a temptation is how you respond to it. Every trial has the potential to become a temptation. Temptation next affects our minds through deception and that we begin to justify and rationalize our right to possess what we desire. (Note: Word of Faith teaches rationalizatiion of rights to claim what we desire.) We need to remember that sin in a believer will not result in spiritual death, however our sinful nature will result in physical death (1 Cor. 11:30; 1 John 5:16).

James 1:14 says: "Every man is tempted." which means NOT ONE is exempted from being tempted. All Christians will face temptations for the rest of their lives.

James 1:12-14
Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.

In Corinthians, God gives us His GRACE to bear or endure which in greek, hupophero That it literally means to "get under it and carry it." Grace gets under us and carry our burdens for us whether it is temptation or trials.

Trials comes with temptations because when we are under trials, we often face temptations that we have to remember that with God's Grace, “with the temptation, God will always provide the way of escape” He will always provide the way of escape. There is always a path to victory. Because the the way out of the temptation is to endure it as a trial and never let it become a solicitation to sin which effects a sinful response.

Which is why people avoid the true meaning of temptation when everyone talks about "trials". When the test comes at the time of trials and struggles, with Grace, we turn to the Word of God and we don't listen to our own flesh and self-confidence (including our faith in faith). To have faith in God, no matter how the fiery darts may be coming at us, understand that God has a purpose for us and that we are to trust God for that purpose.

In my office, I have this cute cartoon. It is showing a cute person wearing the Armor of God and shooting arrows (devil's schemes). A quote under the cartoon states: "Look at it this way...... Without these trials, testing of your faith, working of patience, and fighting a good fight.......LIFE COULD BE BORING." (see 1 Peter 1:7) My mother gave me that when I was facing tough situations. We all must remember that without these temptations and circumstances, our self-discovery of spiritual maturity become aware or we will not mature spiritually. The trials that the Lord allows into our lives to strengthen us can also become temptations, which, rather than being a means to spiritual growth. The only things that come from God are good and perfect which includes all- inclusiveness of God's graciouness. Every act of giving on God's part and every gift He gives is sufficient, lacking nothing, beneficial, and complete.

1 Peter 1:7 - These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

We should always keep filling the Holy Spirit so that we are able to act and react any given situations. "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 12:9). Reading Hebrews helped me understood that I am to be aware of obstacles and hindrances I would meet during my life, to throw me off balance that hinders doing the Will of God that could entangle my life easily if I do not submit myself to God's power of grace. God's grace is more than sufficient in my life that I am to fix my eyes on Jesus who is my author and perfecter of my faith (Hebrews 12:2). Faith and Grace together is to "Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 3:13-14, NIV). Suffering (discipline) is a Process “We know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, proven character; and . . .” (Rom. 5:3-4). “Knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, that you may be perfect (mature) and complete, lacking in nothing” (Jam. 1:3-4).

Sining by accident is part of our sinful nature because those who are in Christ Romans 7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. Galatians 5:17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.
We need to guard our minds, emotions, and wills, "bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" (2 Cor. 10:5). I will never be perfect as long as I live in my body which is why God's grace is more than sufficient.

This is when GRACE comes in.
2 Corinthians 9:8 "And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work."

2 Corinthians 12:9
God said: "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

Romans 5:15 "......how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!"

Romans 5:17 ".......how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ."

[JAS4Yeshua]

I voted, but lack the time to properly elaborate on my vote. ;)

[JAS4Yeshua]

Although JimFromOhio does echo a lot of what I believe.

[Faithful Love]

So the fact God Himself calls poverty and sickness a curse doesn't matter to most of you?????

Hmmmm - I would think more of you would want to line your lives up with what the Word says. :confused: Then again, nothing shocks me here on CF anymore.

[Balance]

Psalm 34:18 The LORD is near to those who have a broken heart,
And saves such as have a contrite spirit.

19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous,
But the LORD delivers him out of them all




1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.


1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

2 Cor 2:14 Now thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and through us diffuses the fragrance of His knowledge in every place.

[JAS4Yeshua]

So the fact God Himself calls poverty and sickness a curse doesn't matter to most of you?????

Hmmmm - I would think more of you would want to line your lives up with what the Word says. :confused: Then again, nothing shocks me here on CF anymore.
We do line up with what the Word says. The problem is, you and I disagree on what the Word is actually saying. Your interpretation of God's Word vs. my interpretation may not match, but we are still lining our lives up with our interpretation of God's Word just as you are lining up your lives with your interpretation of God's Word.

[JimfromOhio]

Psalm 34:18 The LORD is near to those who have a broken heart,
And saves such as have a contrite spirit.

19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous,
But the LORD delivers him out of them all




1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.


1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

2 Cor 2:14 Now thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and through us diffuses the fragrance of His knowledge in every place.




Balance, did you leave out "even our" in 1 John 5:4 ?

KJV
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

NIV
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

God didn't give us the burden to work on our faith but rather to focus on HIM as we grow in faith. Romans 10:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=10&verse=17&version=31&context=verse) Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&verse=8&version=31&context=verse) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Colossians 2:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=2&verse=12&version=31&context=verse) having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God (not ourselves), who raised him from the dead.

If we come to Christ primarily to find fulfillment or to escape from bad habits or negative circumstances, Jesus may not be what we are looking for. Victory is the Holy Spirit convicted us and Christ is us, we all experience the power of the Holy Spirit to gain victory over sin, we may never attain total dominance over our drives and passions. Jesus is the Great Deliverer, through whom we have victory over sin, death and hell. In Christ we have all the power we will ever need.

As we Christians are training for our spiritual growth, we look NOT AT our faith but in Christ of WHO we have faith in, who is THE author and finisher. "Let us run with patience the race that is set before us." (Hebrews 12:1). The Holy Spirit tells us to keep our eyes on Jesus not on others who are also running the race! There are important things each of us should know and understand about our struggles as the faithful people of God.

Jesus provides both strong warning and loving encouragement, for there is always the danger of losing the race, but there is also the victor's reward awaiting those who run with patience and endurance. Trials come to humble us that we must realize that God allows trials in our lives share our burdens with others. (James 1:3-4, and 12).

Matthew 11:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=11&verse=28&version=31&context=verse)
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

Matthew 11:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=11&verse=30&version=31&context=verse)
For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Galatians 5:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=5&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)
[ Freedom in Christ ] It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery (sin).

Galatians 6:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=6&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 1 John 5:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=5&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)-4 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome. And his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

1 Timothy 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.


2 Corinthians 12:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=12&verse=9&version=31&context=verse)
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness (even when my faith is weak)." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

Ephesians 3:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=3&verse=7&version=31&context=verse)
I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of His power. (not my own efforts)

Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. We have to remember that working on our faith is not a gift but rather an OBLIGATION according to man's doctrines. Romans 4:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=4&verse=4&version=31&context=verse) Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.

2 Corinthians 13:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=13&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

The problem is this when we examine ourselves, we do not know what Spirit-filled really means nor do we know how to practice Spirit-filled virtues. I do have some concerns with some who are "professed preachers" in this world who claim to follow and teach the "Word" MAY NOT be following the Word.

When you are filled with the Holy Spirit, then Jesus through His GRACE just flows out of you because if you DON'T, trying to do the Lord's work in your own strength is the most confusing, exhausting, and tedious of all work. It is God's will for us to be Spirit-filled (Ephesians 5:17-18). We all have to come to the understanding that while God wants us to be Spirit-filled that God's loving desire that we should reflect His own holiness and goodness, NOT our own goodness. Some stumble because they rely on their own works rather than the Holy Spirit. Christian faith is inward, not outward because we are in the spirit and not in the flesh. In Ephesians 5:18 where the present tense of the verb in Greek means: "Keep on being filled with the Spirit".

MOST OF ALL:
Jude 1:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=72&chapter=1&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

[Faithful Love]

We do line up with what the Word says. The problem is, you and I disagree on what the Word is actually saying. Your interpretation of God's Word vs. my interpretation may not match, but we are still lining our lives up with our interpretation of God's Word just as you are lining up your lives with your interpretation of God's Word.



God says poverty and sickness is a curse. It takes a lot of work to "interpret" that to mean something other than it says.

[Balance]

Psalm 34:18 The LORD is near to those who have a broken heart,
And saves such as have a contrite spirit.

19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous,
But the LORD delivers him out of them all




1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.


1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

2 Cor 2:14 Now thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and through us diffuses the fragrance of His knowledge in every place.




Sorry, it was late and I didn't include my thought -

I can't find any scripture that shows God leaves me in sickness and suffering until I die, but I can find a number of them that show I can and will overcome every obstacle.

[JimfromOhio]

Sorry, it was late and I didn't include my thought -

I can't find any scripture that shows God leaves me in sickness and suffering until I die, but I can find a number of them that show I can and will overcome every obstacle.


He does not WANT to leave us sickness and suffering but often rather than take them away from us, He gives us GRACE to endure our discipleship. There were number of Christians in the Bible who were sick (i.e. 2 Timothy 4:20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus.) 1 Timothy 5:23 Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses. God's eternal blessings do not depend on how I healthy I am physically.

There are those who often selectively exclude this verse: 2 Corinthians 12:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=12&verse=10&version=31&context=verse) That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

What does Paul mean when he wrote in 2 Corinthians 12:10 "That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." ?

Weaknesses: (From Strong's Greek #769) of strength, weakness, infirmity, of the body, its native weakness and frailty, feebleness of health or sickness, of the soul , want of strength and capacity requisite 1b, to understand a thing 1b, to do things great and glorious 1b, to restrain corrupt desires 1b, to bear trials and troubles

Insults: (From Strong's Greek #5196) insolence impudence, pride, haughtiness, a wrong springing from insolence, an injury, affront, insult, mental injury and wantonness of its infliction being prominent, injury inflicted by the violence of a tempest

Hardships: (From Strong's Greek #318) necessity, imposed either by the circumstances, or by law of duty regarding to one's advantage, custom, argument, calamity, distress, straits

Persecutions: (From Strong's Greek #1375) persecution

Difficulties: (From Strong's Greek #4730) narrowness of place, a narrow place, metaph. dire calamity, extreme affliction.

If you look at verse 9 leading up to verse 10..... God told Paul "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me."

2 Corinthians 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows. :thumbsup:

[JimfromOhio]

God says poverty and sickness is a curse. It takes a lot of work to "interpret" that to mean something other than it says.

Sin is a curse. Galatians 3:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=13&version=31&context=verse) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

1 Samuel 2:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=2&verse=7&version=31&context=verse)
The LORD sends poverty and wealth; he humbles and he exalts.

[dkbwarrior]

God didn't give us the burden to work on our faith but rather to focus on HIM as we grow in faith. Romans 10:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=10&verse=17&version=31&context=verse) Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&verse=8&version=31&context=verse) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Colossians 2:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=2&verse=12&version=31&context=verse) having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God (not ourselves), who raised him from the dead.


Ahh, but how do we focus on HIM? Why through the WORD of course. You see, He is only found in the WORD. He has given us the burden to labour in His Word, because there, in His Word, we will see the image of the invisible God, and receive the faith of God.


1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:1-3, 10-12

Focusing on an image of Jesus that you may create in your own mind doesn't mean anything. All that does is give one the satisfaction of feeling justified in their beliefs, without them being in line with what God says. And it does not produce faith.

But when we meditate in His Word, seeking HIM, then the Spirit takes and reveals the Word to us. This is what we call revelation. It is only the REVEALED WORD that transfers the faith of God into us. This is the gift He gives us.

But the burden is still on us to listen. To learn, to meditate, to seek, so that we give HIM the opportunity to deposit HIS seed, the Word of God into our hearts. And that is what gives us faith.

We must labour to enter into that rest, but it is a labour of meditation, of listening, of learning.

Peace...

[dkbwarrior]

Sin is a curse.


Where does it say that? Reference please.

Sin may well be a curse, in the modern definition of the Word, but sin is not the curse of the law, by biblical definition.

Sin is the transgression of the law. The curse is the result of transgressing the law, the result of sin. Sin itself is not the curse.

Peace...

[ImmersionX]

So the fact God Himself calls poverty and sickness a curse doesn't matter to most of you?????

Hmmmm - I would think more of you would want to line your lives up with what the Word says. :confused: Then again, nothing shocks me here on CF anymore.

ROTFL
:doh:

I voted no comment cause of statements like this.

[JimfromOhio]

Ahh, but how do we focus on HIM? Why through the WORD of course. You see, He is only found in the WORD. He has given us the burden to labour in His Word, because there, in His Word, we will see the image of the invisible God, and receive the faith of God.


1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:1-3, 10-12

Focusing on an image of Jesus that you may create in your own mind doesn't mean anything. All that does is give one the satisfaction of feeling justified in their beliefs, without them being in line with what God says. And it does not produce faith.

But when we meditate in His Word, seeking HIM, then the Spirit takes and reveals the Word to us. This is what we call revelation. It is only the REVEALED WORD that transfers the faith of God into us. This is the gift He gives us.

But the burden is still on us to listen. To learn, to meditate, to seek, so that we give HIM the opportunity to deposit HIS seed, the Word of God into our hearts. And that is what gives us faith.

We must labour to enter into that rest, but it is a labour of meditation, of listening, of learning.

Peace...
Let's talk about "image".

Christianity is radical because we change from old nature to the new nature, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of God that created us.

We are to be careful what we think may be revealed in our hearts and mind because instead of purity of their hearts, they have corrupted imaginings among themselves. Christianity today is man-centered, not God-centered. Teachers using salesmanship methods and corrupting God's true image. Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." Faith is at the foundation of all Christian living, and because faith has to do with the character of God, not my feelings about God through ANY objects, images and any form of idoltary. Throughout the Bible, God have warned people to be careful of idolatry because we could slip into it almost without noticing it. Idolatry is what God is saying something like this for today's Christians, "You have committed adultery by worshiping idols instead of worshiping Me. Your hearts have been unfaithful to me because you are loving yourselves more than you love Me. Your hearts longs for something from Me and that is idolatry.

Many so called preachers have been using "God revealed to me" abusely and I don't trust them. Many times, I found that their "reveals" were not even supported by the Bible. They only focus the GOOD THINGS but ignore the reality of bad things.

[dkbwarrior]

Many so called preachers have been using "God revealed to me" abusely and I don't trust them. Many times, I found that their "reveals" were not even supported by the Bible. They only focus the GOOD THINGS but ignore the reality of bad things.

4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
-Romans 2:4

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

Where does it say that? Reference please.

Sin may well be a curse, in the modern definition of the Word, but sin is not the curse of the law, by biblical definition.

Sin is the transgression of the law. The curse is the result of transgressing the law, the result of sin. Sin itself is not the curse.

Peace...
Not the actual sins but the curse of the original sin. Curse of Adam's sin, we became sinners. We are born with the curse. Curse on man was sweat, labor, work, toil. And this, for men, defines life. The whole human race into decay, disease, disorder and death. Curse is part of the suffering that leads to physical death (sin). Curse for all humans until he/she goes back to decay and dust.

Genesis 3:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=3&verse=17&version=31&context=verse)
To Adam, God said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.

[JimfromOhio]

4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
-Romans 2:4

Peace...
Looking at the NEXT verse (5): But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

Later in verses 7-8 "those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger."

[JimfromOhio]

When I voted, I voted for "It's somewhere in between them" and that "between" is GOD.

Hebrews 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=2&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

[Optimax]

I voted health/wealth with wealth not necessarily meaning "millionaire".

[Faithful Love]

ROTFL
:doh:

I voted no comment cause of statements like this.


So reading and believing the word gives you fits?! :doh:

[JimfromOhio]

I voted health/wealth with wealth not necessarily meaning "millionaire".

That may true but we don't know your heart. However, God knows and speaking of "heart". People are focusing on something rather than God. Aren't we supposed to have hearts after God's own heart rather than what we want out of Him?

[catlover]

We should not obsess about these "things" just like birds do not obsess about food. They just happen as a matter of course.
We should not obsess against them either.
Obsession is obsession.

:clap: Amen-materilialism is not a Godly concept-

[Elijah2]

Much of the doctrine of today that is being belched from the plastic lectern within most so-called professing churches is summed up as being the “new age pop gospel of practicality and gain”, which is no different to the Laodicean age.

Whether we like it or not, what is being passed off as His Gospel in the majority of the Laodicean churches of today, is perilously close to the antithesis of what was preached by first century believers, which we call doctrine of today, that is, cheap, temporal, transient, self indulgent, idolatrous, ego centric, sensual, feel good pep talks from a “new age gospel”. They pump up their weekly gathering of “seeker-sensitive-feeling-friendly” Christians who can’t wait to get their next “cheap and meaningful” sermonette to satisfy their Christianette “comfort zone” faith in their apostate assemblies on most Sundays.

Sad as it is, this is where I believe that the focus on Health, Wealth, Suffering, and Sickness Doctrine comes from the “message” of today that has no proclamation of the offence of the Cross, no teaching of the corrupt and utterly vile nature of mankind, no exposure of why such a great debt was paid by “The One” who is owed nothing. The doctrine of today has: no call for repentance; no humility; no confession, no repentance, or no forgiveness; just a weekly feel good, show me how to be healthy, wealthy, and wise bless me chat with a sprinkling of some signs and wonders and miracles.

Now this is only my opinion what I have seen over the years in many churches in my country.

Be blessed in Jesus’ Name.

[catlover]

So the fact God Himself calls poverty and sickness a curse doesn't matter to most of you?????

Hmmmm - I would think more of you would want to line your lives up with what the Word says. :confused: Then again, nothing shocks me here on CF anymore.

Belief in Jesus doesn't shield you from this faliable world-there is more to Jesus than earthly pleasures...you do realize Stephen was stoned because of his belief in Jesus don't you? Or was her cursed?

[Tenebrae]

In my opinion, both in extremes are a perversion of Gods word.

I do not believe that God uses sickness as a teaching tool.

I think God heals according to His will and direction and at times people with faith arent healed, why, I dont have a clue. I know at times little old me with pretty much no faith has been able to pray to God for peoples healing and God has listened and healed those people

I think the tithing doctrine falls down mainly because no one has ever been able to tell me why a non tither would get all the things that they say can only come to those who tithe.

[Faithful Love]

Belief in Jesus doesn't shield you from this faliable world-there is more to Jesus than earthly pleasures...you do realize Stephen was stoned because of his belief in Jesus don't you? Or was her cursed?


And you do realize that God says IF you hearken and obey many blessings will come to you.... poverty and sickness are curses that He says will come to you if you are DISobedient???

Or do you not believe that part of the word?????:doh:

[JimfromOhio]

And you do realize that God says IF you hearken and obey many blessings will come to you.... poverty and sickness are curses that He says will come to you if you are DISobedient???

Or do you not believe that part of the word?????:doh:

Since you follow the word, I recommend you read this thread:
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7260274 :thumbsup:

[catlover]

And you do realize that God says IF you hearken and obey many blessings will come to you.... poverty and sickness are curses that He says will come to you if you are DISobedient???

Or do you not believe that part of the word?????:doh:

So Stephen was DISobedient-wow WoF doctrine is certainly questionable!!!!

[catlover]

Since you follow the word, I recommend you read this thread:
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7260274 :thumbsup:

I do notice that the point about Stephen was completely ignored...

[JimfromOhio]

I do notice that the point about Stephen was completely ignored...

I mentioned Steven in some threads of course, they ignore them. They are well-known for being selective because some verses really proves that their doctrines are not in-line with the Bible (Word).

[catlover]

I mentioned Steven in some threads of course, they ignore them. They are well-known for being selective because some verses really proves that their doctrines are not in-line with the Bible (Word).

I would suppose then, it's a false doctrine if one has to ignore certain parts of Scripture...

[Faithful Love]

No one is "ignoring" your references, they just are not pertinent to the conversation.

Stephen's stoning was persecution for the Word's sake. THAT is the suffering Christians are to go through. Jesus redeemed us from the curses of poverty and sickness and more, if we choose to believe and receive the redemption.

[catlover]

No one is "ignoring" your references, they just are not pertinent to the conversation.

Stephen's stoning was persecution for the Word's sake. THAT is the suffering Christians are to go through. Jesus redeemed us from the curses of poverty and sickness and more, if we choose to believe and receive the redemption.

Sounds like the doctrine of modern day consumerism and materialism...not The Word.


Luke 16:19-31

[19] "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [20] At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [21] and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

[22] "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24] So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

[25] "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. [26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

[Balance]

So Stephen was DISobedient-wow WoF doctrine is certainly questionable!!!!

Nice - do you know something that I don't about Word of Faith doctrine, (which I taught), or is this just another accusation?

[JimfromOhio]

There is nothing wrong with having a desire to prosper (or being healed)as long as our motives are correct. Christians' view of healing, money and material possessions is an effective barometer of our spirituality. As Jesus said, "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" (Matthew 6:21). Our hearts are like a garden and must be kept free from weeds and insects. To expect the fruits and flowers bloom in an untended heart is to misunderstand completely the processes of Grace and God's will. Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 3:10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance. I have two sides of the coins that I have used for years. Perseverance come to test the strength of our faith because they assist us in the knowledge of our own faith. (Genesis 22:1-18, Malachi 3:3-4, 1 Peter 1:6-9). "Perseverance in life's experiences" come to us to reveal what we really love.