What's wrong with being Gentile?

[Qalevra]

I have been wracking my brain over this a little bit since I've been involved in trying to learn about messianic beliefs. I started my learning process with an open mind, thinking that this movement had to have two things. 1) A basis in Judaism and 2) a representative portion, if not a majority, of Jews.

From what I can see when comparing the Messianic belief system stated at IAMCS to the Nicene Creed, there is no truly discernable difference. I realise not all Messianics share these beliefs fully, but intellectual honesty stipulates that these beliefs must be shared by the vast majority on the ground.

http://iamcs.org/WhatWeBelieve.php
http://www.creeds.net/ancient/nicene.htm

So, it's a form of Christianity, accented with Jewish practices.

It also seems that the vast majority are not Jews, but many would like to be for some reason, or try to claim it based on a distant relative. Why? Yeah, being Jewish is pretty awesome, but being a Gentile is pretty cool too. You have 7 laws to follow as opposed to 613. You have freedom from systematic persecution. You can shed one identity and adopt another.

I realise that there is some connection being made with being perceived as Jewish and legitimising the movement, but it's quite clearly a Christian belief system; completely in step with Christianity. There is no need to legitimise it to Christians. The doctrine lines up. Jews reject the Christian belief system, and the only purpose to legitimising it to Jews that I can see is proselytising, yet many of you have claimed in Shir's poll that Jews do not need to be saved by Jesus.

There's nothing wrong with being a Gentile. Why the drive to be identified as Jewish? Help me understand.

[cyberlizard]

i'm gentile and proud.... i would rather be a gentile obedient to His standards, than a Jew who is not obedient to what HaShem has given them (no disrespect is meant, and this should not be taken as generalisation.).

I dread to think how those Jews who are not observant will feel when Messiah comes!


Steve

[Steve Petersen]

There are some messianics who are unaffiliated. Some of them are unitarian (small 'u'). This means they are at odds with the other groups you mentioned.

[Steve Petersen]

There are some messianics who are unaffiliated. Some of them are unitarian (small 'u'). This means they are at odds with the other groups you mentioned.

[Qalevra]

Oh, I'm very aware of that. I tried to make the point that there are messianics who exist outside the norm. Are you suggesting then that those who are seeking Jewish identity through messianicism are largely from these fringe groups?

[Steve Petersen]

Oh, I'm very aware of that. I tried to make the point that there are messianics who exist outside the norm. Are you suggesting then that those who are seeking Jewish identity through messianicism are largely from these fringe groups?


No.

Some in mjism are there because they want to imitate their Master. It has nothing to do with missionary things, or some desire for Jewish identity.

If you feel inclined, take some time to read about the Sabbatarians that emerged in Transylvania shortly after the Reformation. Most of them came out of the Unitarian church and began to practice Judaism. In later centuries some of them were assimilated into Jewish communities. These Sabbatarians did not missionize Jews and seem to have had cordial relations with the Jewish community.

[ShirChadash]

No.

Some in mjism are there because they want to imitate their Master. It has nothing to do with missionary things, or some desire for Jewish identity.
not for the many... but for some, definitely.

[Qalevra]

Thanks, Steve, I will look into that.

In the meantime, this need to be accepted as Jewish DOES exist in the messianic movement, and I really do want to know why. I don't understand it, and I'd like to hear from those here that have this desire, and gain their insight into why.

[visionary]

I have been wracking my brain over this a little bit since I've been involved in trying to learn about messianic beliefs. I started my learning process with an open mind, thinking that this movement had to have two things. 1) A basis in Judaism and 2) a representative portion, if not a majority, of Jews.

From what I can see when comparing the Messianic belief system stated at IAMCS to the Nicene Creed, there is no truly discernable difference. I realise not all Messianics share these beliefs fully, but intellectual honesty stipulates that these beliefs must be shared by the vast majority on the ground.

http://iamcs.org/WhatWeBelieve.php
http://www.creeds.net/ancient/nicene.htm

So, it's a form of Christianity, accented with Jewish practices.

It also seems that the vast majority are not Jews, but many would like to be for some reason, or try to claim it based on a distant relative. Why? Yeah, being Jewish is pretty awesome, but being a Gentile is pretty cool too. You have 7 laws to follow as opposed to 613. You have freedom from systematic persecution. You can shed one identity and adopt another.

I realise that there is some connection being made with being perceived as Jewish and legitimising the movement, but it's quite clearly a Christian belief system; completely in step with Christianity. There is no need to legitimise it to Christians. The doctrine lines up. Jews reject the Christian belief system, and the only purpose to legitimising it to Jews that I can see is proselytising, yet many of you have claimed in Shir's poll that Jews do not need to be saved by Jesus.

There's nothing wrong with being a Gentile. Why the drive to be identified as Jewish? Help me understand.In order to be on this forum.. some concessions were made .. true... but being the bridge means that there are both sides to reach and the back and forth between the different understanding is a start... which is what a forum is for.

[visionary]

i'm gentile and proud.... i would rather be a gentile obedient to His standards, than a Jew who is not obedient to what HaShem has given them (no disrespect is meant, and this should not be taken as generalisation.).

I dread to think how those Jews who are not observant will feel when Messiah comes!


SteveI too am a gentile and have no intentions of being a jew or becoming a jew. I do, however, recognise that the God that met them on Mount Sinai is the One True God, and worthy of my worship.:bow: It is to Him, and through His only begotten Son, that I have come to have a very dear relationship with Him. Through His Holy Spirit, I am guided to study Torah and take that which He impresses upon me to heart.:amen: He is my teacher, and I am His student.:prayer:

[Qalevra]

In order to be on this forum.. some concessions were made .. true... but being the bridge means that there are both sides to reach and the back and forth between the different understanding is a start... which is what a forum is for.

I must not have eaten my Wheaties this morning. I don't understand what you're saying here. Can you please elaborate?

[visionary]

I must not have eaten my Wheaties this morning. I don't understand what you're saying here. Can you please elaborate?Christians see us as a branch of judaism faith and Jews see us as a branch of Christian faith.. We are the bridge... and you will find us all over it from one side to the other.

[Kris10leigh]

I don't think we have a very good sampling of the population in this little corner of cyber-world. I have no idea how representative we are of MJ. We could be, but I doubt it.

When I venture out into other forums, I see very strong opinions from Christians and very well-read Christians who have put a lot of time and effort into their theology. This isn't true of Joe-Blow Christian I meet in the real world. Most people are mother, daughter, teacher, aunt, scrapbooker, and oh yeah...a Christian too.

My point is that people who come to this forum (or any forum) tend to have a particular interest in the topic, in this case religion. The people here tend to be more educated than the average Christian.

I have no problem being a Gentile. And as Steve said, this is my only desire:

Some in mjism are there because they want to imitate their Master. It has nothing to do with missionary things, or some desire for Jewish identity.


So I guess I don't know how to find the answer for you and I'm learning that my own beliefs lie outside of just about every organized religion out there. I just want to follow Yeshua.

[Melchizedek]

Why the drive to be identified as Jewish? Help me understand.

Yeshua commanded (in line with the Torah) that we should make disciples of all goyim. What is a disciple? Surely as a Jew you know! One who imitates their master rabbi (rebbe) fully is a true disciple of that rabbi.

Jesus is Jewish, and is obedient fully to the Torah. He is the living rebbe of those who follow him.

Thus, true discipleship of the Messiah, Yeshua, our Rebbe, will lead someone to desire and become Jewish like him, keep his halakha, teach what he teaches from the Torah, and make other disciples for him too. That is the only result.

If one wanted to imitate Messiah Yeshua fully, and imitate his halakha - why wouldn't someone want to become Jewish like him? Thus it is not because one despises being a gentile that a believer in Yeshua desires to be Jewish (although if to be a gentile means to be a pagan, by all means one despises that) - instead, it is out of love for our rebbe and desire to imitate him as his disciples that Messianics become Jewish in accordance with his halakha and so posken his way.

[Kris10leigh]

Yeshua commanded (in line with the Torah) that we should make disciples of all goyim. What is a disciple? Surely as a Jew you know! One who imitates their master rabbi (rebbe) fully is a true disciple of that rabbi.

Jesus is Jewish, and is obedient fully to the Torah. He is the living rebbe of those who follow him.

Thus, true discipleship of the Messiah, Yeshua, our Rebbe, will lead someone to desire and become Jewish like him, keep his halakha, teach what he teaches from the Torah, and make other disciples for him too. That is the only result.

If one wanted to imitate Messiah Yeshua fully, and imitate his halakha - why wouldn't someone want to become Jewish like him? Thus it is not because one despises being a gentile that a believer in Yeshua desires to be Jewish (although if to be a gentile means to be a pagan, by all means one despises that) - instead, it is out of love for our rebbe and desire to imitate him as his disciples that Messianics become Jewish in accordance with his halakha and so posken his way.
Ok, that was perfect! It can't be said any better than this. :thumbsup:

[Qalevra]

Yeshua commanded (in line with the Torah) that we should make disciples of all goyim. What is a disciple? Surely as a Jew you know! One who imitates their master rabbi (rebbe) fully is a true disciple of that rabbi.

Jesus is Jewish, and is obedient fully to the Torah. He is the living rebbe of those who follow him.

Thus, true discipleship of the Messiah, Yeshua, our Rebbe, will lead someone to desire and become Jewish like him, keep his halakha, teach what he teaches from the Torah, and make other disciples for him too. That is the only result.

Interesting. I take it, then, that you reject the writings of Paul?

If one wanted to imitate Messiah Yeshua fully

From what I understand, this kind of idea is fairly new in Christianity. Is it comparable to, say, the Muslim idea of imitating Muhammad? For example, you will encounter Muslims who keep cats in their home because supposedly Muhammad was a cat-lover, or sleep on their right side, because the prophet supposedly did.

, and imitate his halakha - why wouldn't someone want to become Jewish like him?

Do you believe in the "Great Commission"? If so, is it your position then that the entire world should become Jewish?

Thus it is not because one despises being a gentile that a believer in Yeshua desires to be Jewish (although if to be a gentile means to be a pagan, by all means one despises that)

One can be a Ger Toshav.

- instead, it is out of love for our rebbe and desire to imitate him as his disciples that Messianics become Jewish in accordance with his halakha and so posken his way.

In your view, how do they become Jewish?

[ShirChadash]

So, if I espouse Confucian teaching (I wouldn't but follow me here K?), I guess I should go seek a way to become Chinese, as his disciple would want to be like him.

[Kris10leigh]

From what I understand, this kind of idea is fairly new in Christianity. Is it comparable to, say, the Muslim idea of imitating Muhammad? For example, you will encounter Muslims who keep cats in their home because supposedly Muhammad was a cat-lover, or sleep on their right side, because the prophet supposedly did.


I personally think that's more like copying than imitating. I don't personally think I need to grow a beard or wear a white robe to imitate Yeshua. ^_^ We should imitate His teachings, His moral fibers, and His good will. But I don't have to have a fondness for the donkey, just because He did. ;)

[Kris10leigh]

So, if I espouse Confucian teaching (I wouldn't but follow me here K?), I guess I should go seek a way to become Chinese, as his disciple would want to be like him.

Not become Chinese but maybe one would find spirituallity in a tea ceremony (or is that Japanese?) or the art of Kung Fu.

[ShirChadash]

Not become Chinese but maybe one would find spirituallity in a tea ceremony (or is that Japanese?) or the art of Kung Fu.
I don't think partaking of, as you say, a tea ceremony -- even every week -- would be sufficient to honestly call myself Chinese. And yet many messianics call themselves, or at the very least consider themselves quietly, to be Jews, the "real Jews", the "New Israel" -- heck even normative xians claim such.

[Steve Petersen]

In hasidic thought there is the concept of being 'one' with your rebbe. I think this is what most MJs are after.

[ShirChadash]

Well, if one must be "one" with one's rebbe by being exactly what that rebbe is -- including his ethnicity, as "Jew" is far more than just "Judaism" -- then I guess, by the same token, one must be "one" with one's rebbe by being exactly what that rebbe is -- male.

[Torah613]

what if I were sephardi, or yemenite, or bakhari and tried to attach myself to the breslever rebbe?

Yochanan

[Steve Petersen]

Interesting. I take it, then, that you reject the writings of Paul?

If Paul contradicts Jesus, then I would.

From what I understand, this kind of idea is fairly new in Christianity. Is it comparable to, say, the Muslim idea of imitating Muhammad? For example, you will encounter Muslims who keep cats in their home because supposedly Muhammad was a cat-lover, or sleep on their right side, because the prophet supposedly did.

It would certainly entail doing the commandments they way he did.

Do you believe in the "Great Commission"? If so, is it your position then that the entire world should become Jewish?

Bringing the world to Torah (vis-a-vis Deuteronomy 4).

In your view, how do they become Jewish?

Why should they?

[Talmidah]

I don't think partaking of, as you say, a tea ceremony -- even every week -- would be sufficient to honestly call myself Chinese. And yet many messianics call themselves, or at the very least consider themselves quietly, to be Jews, the "real Jews", the "New Israel" -- heck even normative xians claim such.
You know, I didn't realize that this was the case. I thought it was mainly a phenomenon of Messianicism. But I recently started lurking in some of the other forums here...The Ancient Way, OBOB, General Theology. I was really surprised by how many people say straight out that Chrstians are the true Jews, the Judaism is a false religion and the Chrstianity is the actual continuation of Judaism. It was very interesting and enlightening to see these things.

[ShirChadash]

Why should they?
EXACTLY! ^_^

[ShirChadash]

You know, I didn't realize that this was the case. I thought it was mainly a phenomenon of Messianicism. But I recently started lurking in some of the other forums here...The Ancient Way, OBOB, General Theology. I was really surprised by how many people say straight out that Chrstians are the true Jews, the Judaism is a false religion and the Chrstianity is the actual continuation of Judaism. It was very interesting and enlightening to see these things.
and some people think NOACHIDISM is dangerous. :doh:

[Qalevra]

It would certainly entail doing the commandments they way he did.

From what I have read, so little of that is detailed in the NT. What is your source on how to do that?

Bringing the world to Torah (vis-a-vis Deuteronomy 4).

Bringing the world to knowledge of HaShem. ;)

Why should they?

Bingo. Knowledge and submission to HaShem and obedience to the 613 mitzvot are, for the Gentile, mutually exclusive items.

[debi b]

One day I was at work. I have a chumash that has only Hebrew (and Aramaic Targums) in it. Kewl hun? I get paid to study! Anyway there was a lady and she turned out to be Jewish and she noticed what I was reading and asked me if I was Jewish.

There is an assumption that is made by both Christianity and Judaism that sets up this situation. That only if one were Jewish would they be reading a chumash. We are put in an uncomfortable situation by this. We had a nice conversation, but she went away very uncomfortable and her biggest question was why would I want to when I told her who I was and how I was raised.

There is an assumption that is made about accurately representing scripture. That to follow anything in Torah one must reject Paul. What if "they" don't accurately reflect Paul's teachings?

[Melchizedek]

Interesting. I take it, then, that you reject the writings of Paul?

On the contrary, Paul's writings are completely in line with the Torah, and thus in line with discipleship to Messiah Yeshua. That Paul is seriously misunderstood and taken way out of context is not his fault.

Do you believe in the "Great Commission"?Of course I do - Gen 1:28 (be fruit and multiply - make disciples of all nations) fill the earth with the knowledge of Messiah, and subdue - teaching them to observe all things He has commanded), and the precedent of evangelism as shown by Abraham himself, and is also the commission to Israel:

Deut 4
5 See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it.
6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people."
7 What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him?
8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?

Israel is to make disciples of all nations.

If so, is it your position then that the entire world should become Jewish?Yes.

One can be a Ger Toshav.Israel herself is called a "Ger Toshav" so I agree with you.

In your view, how do they become Jewish?By accepting and keeping the Torah (which includes circumcision, and immersion before witnesses). For this is the gospel: repent (make teshuvah), for the King is coming and good will it be for those whom He finds doing His will when He comes.

[ShirChadash]

On the contrary, Paul's writings are completely in line with the Torah, and thus in line with discipleship to Messiah Yeshua. That Paul is seriously misunderstood and taken way out of context is not his fault.

Of course I do - Gen 1:28 (be fruit and multiply - make disciples of all nations) fill the earth with the knowledge of Messiah, and subdue - teaching them to observe all things He has commanded), and the precedent of evangelism as shown by Abraham himself, and is also the commission to Israel:

Deut 4
5 See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it.
6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people."
7 What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him?
8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?

Israel is to make disciples of all nations.

Yes.

Israel herself is called a "Ger Toshav" so I agree with you.

By accepting and keeping the Torah (which includes circumcision, and immersion before witnesses). For this is the gospel: repent (make teshuvah), for the King is coming and good will it be for those whom He finds doing His will when He comes.
^_^ oh my heavens, folks the Jews don't have to have any secret plan (:doh:) to make everyone in the world Jewish... just leave it to the messianics!

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7258616

[Qalevra]

On the contrary, Paul's writings are completely in line with the Torah, and thus in line with discipleship to Messiah Yeshua. That Paul is seriously misunderstood and taken way out of context is not his fault.

So the vast majority of Christians and Christian theologians are wrong in your view?

Of course I do - Gen 1:28 (be fruit and multiply - make disciples of all nations) fill the earth with the knowledge of Messiah, and subdue - teaching them to observe all things He has commanded), and the precedent of evangelism as shown by Abraham himself, and is also the commission to Israel:


You're adding to the verse in Genesis there. There is nothing about making disciples of nations.

Deut 4
5 See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it.
6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people."
7 What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him?
8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?

Israel is to make disciples of all nations.


No, Israel is to show HaShem to all nations through obedience to Torah. There is nothing here about imposing the Torah upon Gentiles.

Yes.

So, the entire world is to be a priestly nation?

By accepting and keeping the Torah (which includes circumcision, and immersion before witnesses).

Then what need is there for Jesus' "salvation"?

[Mikeb85]

Thanks, Steve, I will look into that.

In the meantime, this need to be accepted as Jewish DOES exist in the messianic movement, and I really do want to know why. I don't understand it, and I'd like to hear from those here that have this desire, and gain their insight into why.

Unfortunately, this is one thing I don't understand either. The Church decided in it's first council (Council of Jerusalem) that Gentiles don't need to convert to Judaism to become followers of Jesus or for salvation.

It's also emphasized in my church that while the 613 laws aren't necessarily binding on Gentiles, that we should strive for theosis, and many people (especially clergy) do follow some of the practices in the Torah.

As for myself, I come from a slavic background, nothing wrong with that. We have a great history.

[Kris10leigh]

I don't think partaking of, as you say, a tea ceremony -- even every week -- would be sufficient to honestly call myself Chinese. And yet many messianics call themselves, or at the very least consider themselves quietly, to be Jews, the "real Jews", the "New Israel" -- heck even normative xians claim such.

I agree with you that some people do this and they should not. Of course drinking the tea ceremony no more makes one Chinese than participating in Passover makes one Jewish. I simply contend that for those of us who are trying to do no more than imitate our teacher, there's no harm.

You know, I didn't realize that this was the case. I thought it was mainly a phenomenon of Messianicism. But I recently started lurking in some of the other forums here...The Ancient Way, OBOB, General Theology. I was really surprised by how many people say straight out that Chrstians are the true Jews, the Judaism is a false religion and the Chrstianity is the actual continuation of Judaism. It was very interesting and enlightening to see these things.
I've found this rather off putting myself and have only heard this line of thinking here. I pray you don't judge all Christians by what you read on this board. :prayer:

[ShirChadash]

I agree with you that some people do this and they should not. Of course drinking the tea ceremony no more makes one Chinese than participating in Passover makes one Jewish.
or shabbat, or the festivals, or keeping kosher or even "discipling" after a Jewish man, or or or :)


I've found this rather off putting myself and have only heard this line of thinking here. I pray you don't judge all Christians by what you read on this board. :prayer:
when I was a chr*tian, I rejected the notion that chr*tians are the "new Israel", that uit is the "fulfillment of Judaism", and I never even heard anyone try to say "we are the real Jews". That was before my experience here with messyanicism. As a Messianic, I never ever saw myself as a Jew, never ever called myself a Jew, and rejected the notion that gentiles are Jews because of their faith, OR because of their practices.

[ShirChadash]

I think the answer to this question is right here on this same thread:
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47789040&posted=1#post47789040


when you
1) hate what genuine, normative Judaism is -- which is a religion that is utterly aside from, and has no need for (much less recognition of) Jsus
2) hate its authority in ANYone's life at all
3) don't "feel" you fit within the descriptions of chr*tianity
4) and are desperate to fit SOMEWHERE
5) you de-legitimize and vilify the real Jews, practice what you can find that is written in the "OT" of the "bible" and think it is sufficient, and then declare yourself to be the SPIRITUAL JEWS that real Jews somehow are not.

[Kris10leigh]

or shabbat, or the festivals, or keeping kosher or even "discipling" after a Jewish man, or or or :)


when I was a chr*tian, I rejected the notion that chr*tians are the "new Israel", that uit is the "fulfillment of Judaism", and I never even heard anyone try to say "we are the real Jews". That was before my experience here with messyanicism. As a Messianic, I never ever saw myself as a Jew, never ever called myself a Jew, and rejected the notion that gentiles are Jews because of their faith, OR because of their practices.
You realize we're on the same page right? :thumbsup:

If I ever claimed to be Jewish here, it was a mistake. When I first came aboard I thought the term "Messian JEW" was all inclusive. I never thought that made a gentile Jewish, just that it was an all ecompassing term. I'm sure some others may be confused as well who are new to the movement. But I was corrected and much prefer the term "Messianic Believer" now.

So again, we're on the same page.

[Kris10leigh]

Oh...I suddenly see what you are talking about. :doh:

[ShirChadash]

You realize we're on the same page right? :thumbsup:

If I ever claimed to be Jewish here, it was a mistake. When I first came aboard I thought the term "Messian JEW" was all inclusive. I never thought that made a gentile Jewish, just that it was an all ecompassing term. I'm sure some others may be confused as well who are new to the movement. But I was corrected and much prefer the term "Messianic Believer" now.

So again, we're on the same page.
yes, yes, I do... I was equating my experience with yours (being messianic and not buying into the whole *gotta be called a Jew* thing). :hug:

[Melchizedek]

So the vast majority of Christians and Christian theologians are wrong in your view?

Wrong about Paul, yes. For many make him out to be saying things that are directly contrary to the Torah, when in fact he is not.

You're adding to the verse in Genesis there. There is nothing about making disciples of nations.Be fruitful and multiply. Surely you know that a rabbi makes disciples and his students are his children, and they call him their father. So then, the commandment is to not only have natural children, but also to make disciples.

No, Israel is to show HaShem to all nations through obedience to Torah. There is nothing here about imposing the Torah upon Gentiles.There is no imposition of the Torah on Gentiles, for they are not part of Israel by definition. Instead, there is the responsibility of Israel to teach Torah to the nations, and not just the so-called 7 Noachide laws, so that the nations themselves make teshuvah, and thus join Israel for a hope in the world to come.


So, the entire world is to be a priestly nation?In the Olam Habah, all that will be there is the royal, holy, and priestly nation of Israel, ruled over by King Messiah Yeshua himself.



Then what need is there for Jesus' "salvation"?To make teshuvah is to believe all that Moses wrote. What Moses wrote is all about the Messiah. Thus to believe what Moses wrote is to also accept that there is a need for the sinner to be reconciled to HaShem and that the need is fulfilled by the Messiah whose righteous death atones for the entire nation.

[Kris10leigh]

To make teshuvah is to believe all that Moses wrote. What Moses wrote is all about the Messiah. Thus to believe what Moses wrote is to also accept that there is a need for the sinner to be reconciled to HaShem and that the need is fulfilled by the Messiah whose righteous death atones for the entire nation.

This is something I have always struggled with. Hows does one man's death atone for the sin of mankind? Why is this necessary?

[Melchizedek]

This is something I have always struggled with. Hows does one man's death atone for the sin of mankind? Why is this necessary?

The concept refers back to the death of the High Priest which allows those in the cities of refuge to go home. The first high priest to die was Aaron, and the midrash on that is quite extensive.

That the High Priest dies, as a righteous man atoning for all Israel, so too the Messiah, when he dies, proves that he too is a High Priest - though not one on earth, but of the heavenly tabernacle.

In several places in the Gemara it is written that righteous men suffer on behalf of the public.

The death of the righteous atones just as well as certain sacrifices.' [Mechilta, 72b]

Abel was righteous, and is the first man to have died. Thus the reason why his mother looked for a "seed" in place of Abel - that is Seth. Meaning that Eve understood that the Messiah, the Promised Seed, was to die the death of a righteous man for atonement for mankind. She thought the Messiah was Abel, until he was murdered by his brother and did not rise to life. Instead she thought Seth would be, but even then Seth had a son and was not cut off from the land of the living before having a son; and as a result was disqualified of being a messianic candidate, so at that time men began to call upon the name of the Promised Seed: HaShem.

[Henaynei]

This is something I have always struggled with. Hows does one man's death atone for the sin of mankind? Why is this necessary?goes back all the way to GanEden.... one perfectly without ANY sin, and thus without debt, could pay the debt of all - no other could ....

just as a perfect spotless lamb was necessary for the altar....

Judaism, while denying it today, has long held that the death of a righteous man lifted the debt off a community with which he was connected.... there are even prayers in the Siddur that pray this....

[ShirChadash]

goes back all the way to GanEden.... one perfectly without ANY sin, and thus without debt, could pay the debt of all - no other could ....

just as a perfect spotless lamb was necessary for the altar....

Judaism, while denying it today, has long held that the death of a righteous man lifted the debt off a community with which he was connected.... there are even prayers in the Siddur that pray this....
well you go right ahead and understand that to be applicable in the broad manner you obviously do :thumbsup:

[debi b]

well you go right ahead and understand that to be applicable in the broad manner you obviously do :thumbsup:

I know we are all very passionate about our understandings. I also know that there will be disagreement about interprtation of things. Being frustrated that there are differences will not make anyone change their mind. I know you know that :hug:.