Another Honest Debate Here

[Optimax]

Is Non Word-Faith, Non Word of Faith a modern day heresy within the church today!

Is it?

Is it a twisting of the Gospel eh?



Then answer this and be honest! For or against the question.

[~RENEE~]

Well if they can do it and not get in doo doo so can we.

In some areas yes

[Jimbeaux]

While I would never call WOF a heresy (in the classic definition of the word), I know that many WOF’ers feel than non-WOF’ers are.

~Jim
Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

[Optimax]

Well if they can do it and not get in doo doo so can we.

In some areas yes


Well, If I should suddenly disappear from the forum......................:D

[~RENEE~]

Well, If I should suddenly disappear from the forum......................:Dyou will be welcome at mine

[charityagape]

While I would never call WOF a heresy (in the classic definition of the word), I know that many WOF’ers feel than non-WOF’ers are.

~Jim
Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw




Yep, I'm sure some do........and many non WOFers feel that Wofers are heretics........so we all go around and around again.

[victoryword]

Heh. The only time I ever see these arguments are on the internet. In every day life, I have friends from a number of denominations who have learned to fellowship with one another based on what they actually do agree on.

[JimfromOhio]

I voted yes.... By nature (sinners even though saved and forgiven), we are all heretics. I have learned to be careful how I read and need to look from doctrinal perspective rather than each of our own satisfaction. People often unconsciously select for special attention certain Scriptures that they are familiar with that they forget to check to see the Scriptures for deeper study. Lack of balance scripturally is often the direct consequence of overemphasis on certain favorite passages while ignoring others that are related.

[dkbwarrior]

No, not hardly. I concur with my more reasonable brethren. I may not agree with all the theological perspectives but I certainly don't think any of them rise to the level of heresy.

Peace...

[Faithful Love]

Anytime people attribute evil to God it is heresy.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;

[Jimbeaux]

Yep, I'm sure some do........and many non WOFers feel that Wofers are heretics........so we all go around and around again.

Well, at least you admit it CA. But I suspected it and suspect that other WOF'ers feel the same way.

I do not think you are a heretic so long as you are in Christ. I do believe, however, that you have bought into a false belief system that did not exist in orthodox Christianity prior to R. Kelso Carter, E.W. Kenyon and Kenneth Hagin and that has enough old-fashioned mysticism and gnosticism in it to be lethal.

But I would never call you a heretic until you deny Christ and become a little god youself.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[dkbwarrior]

But I would never call you a heretic until you deny Christ and become a little god youself.



I will never deny the Lord that bought me. As for the other, well, one out of two aint bad...

Peace...

[didaskalos]

In many aspects it is heresy. It denies the work and ministry of Christ on the cross and the resurrection. It stomps all over the broken and bruised body of Jesus. Paul said this was heresy. Paul said that people who fail to see and understand why the body of Christ was offered for our healing are heretics and are counted guilty of inflicting those beatings on Jesus!!!!!
That is pretty bad folks.

[JimfromOhio]

In many aspects it is heresy. It denies the work and ministry of Christ on the cross and the resurrection. It stomps all over the broken and bruised body of Jesus. Paul said this was heresy. Paul said that people who fail to see and understand why the body of Christ was offered for our healing are heretics and are counted guilty of inflicting those beatings on Jesus!!!!!
That is pretty bad folks.
2 Corinthians 6:4-10 Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses; in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left; through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors; known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed; sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.

[didaskalos]

2 Corinthians 6:4-10 Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses; in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left; through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors; known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed; sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.
Once again, I have no idea what your post has to do with what I wrote.
There is really no relationship other than both being written by Paul.
Thanks anyways.

[geetrue]

Once again, I have no idea what your post has to do with what I wrote.
There is really no relationship other than both being written by Paul.
Thanks anyways.

True it didn't have anything to do with your post dids, but it does bring up the fact that Saint Paul said, "I am the pattern for suffereing for all those on the way to heaven"

Who suffers more? WOF believers or non-WOF believers?

[Jimbeaux]

Anytime people attribute evil to God it is heresy.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;

And anyone who denies that God could possibly teach something through suffering or illness could be called a heretic, too, if we want to smear one another with the word.

Whatever God does He does for our good, even if it is painful (as it says here (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20cor%204.17;heb%2012.11;&version=50;)). To say He doesn’t is calling good evil. Right?

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Jimbeaux]

In many aspects it is heresy. It denies the work and ministry of Christ on the cross and the resurrection. It stomps all over the broken and bruised body of Jesus. Paul said this was heresy. Paul said that people who fail to see and understand why the body of Christ was offered for our healing are heretics and are counted guilty of inflicting those beatings on Jesus!!!!!
That is pretty bad folks.

Good to know where I stand with you, Dids.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Simon_Templar]

considering WoF itself wasn't imagined or invented until this century, and all Christians prior to this century were thus Non-WoF... I'd have to say no.

[Drwhat]

Where is it in the bible?

[habeas]

In many aspects it is heresy. It denies the work and ministry of Christ on the cross and the resurrection. It stomps all over the broken and bruised body of Jesus. Paul said this was heresy. Paul said that people who fail to see and understand why the body of Christ was offered for our healing are heretics and are counted guilty of inflicting those beatings on Jesus!!!!!
That is pretty bad folks.

Did Jesus die so that Paul could have a long life and endure no physical suffering such as hunger and beatings?

Did Jesus die so that Paul's persecution-inflicted wounds would not kill him, but rather, he would be healed of them first?

Did Jesus die so that Stephen's persecution wounds would not kill him and he, too, would be satisfied with "long life?"

Luke 6:20-26:

Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
Blessed are you who are hungry now,
for you will be filled.
Blessed are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.
Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you, revile you, and defame you on account of the Son of Man.
Rejoice in that Day and leap for joy, for surely your reward is great in heaven; for that is what their ancestors did to the prophets.
But woe to you who are rich,
for you have received your consolation.
Woe to you who are full now,
for you will be hungry.
Woe to you who are laughing now,
for you will mourn and weep.
Woe to you when all speak well of you, for that is what their ancestors did to the false prophets.

[Faithful Love]

Did Jesus die so that Paul could have a long life and endure no physical suffering such as hunger and beatings?

Did Jesus die so that Paul's persecution-inflicted wounds would not kill him, but rather, he would be healed of them first?

Did Jesus die so that Stephen's persecution wounds would not kill him and he, too, would be satisfied with "long life?"


You are a bit confused, but very much not alone here on CF. Many here equate sickness and poverty with persecution for His sake .

These things you write about above are PERSECUTION FOR THE WORD'S SAKE which we are to endure.

None of these things you write about speak of poverty and illness, which Jesus indeed redeemed us from (if you choose to receive it - same as salvation). God didn't say "I gave Stephen cancer." or "I smacked Paul with the flu."

[habeas]

You are a bit confused, but very much not alone here on CF. Many here equate sickness and poverty with persecution for His sake .

These things you write about above are PERSECUTION FOR THE WORD'S SAKE which we are to endure.

None of these things you write about speak of poverty and illness, which Jesus indeed redeemed us from (if you choose to receive it - same as salvation). God didn't say "I gave Stephen cancer." or "I smacked Paul with the flu."

I see, then. God only heals diseases not traumatic injuries. He rescued Daniel from the lions, but he doesn't close up wounds of a traumatic sort. Or, He doesn't do it if the wounds are inflicted by persecutor?

In such case, "by his stripes" doesn't apply. Those wounds, hunger, beatings, physical suffering and death are not covered by that doctrine or the "by long life I will satisfy you" doctrine either. Ok, I got it now. Thanks.

[victoryword]

I see, then. God only heals diseases not traumatic injuries. He rescued Daniel from the lions, but he doesn't close up wounds of a traumatic sort. Or, He doesn't do it if the wounds are inflicted by persecutor?

In such case, "by his stripes" doesn't apply. Those wounds, hunger, beatings, physical suffering and death are not covered by that doctrine or the "by long life I will satisfy you" doctrine either. Ok, I got it now. Thanks.

This post is so full of STRAW that it is the envy of every barnyard. Horses and cows could feed for months here. I don't see Faithful Love's post even come close to implying what you are implying in your post. The fact is that my getting cancer (which in most cases is due to poor dieting) is not "suffering for the Lord." If I get wounded due to being beaten by radical Muslims for not backing down from my Testimony of Jesus Christ, of course I can expect God to heal me afterwards. But getting cancer and being beaten are two different things entirely. One of them I am asked to endure for the Lord's sake, the other I am told to ask God to heal immediately rather than suffer it.

If all you folks who believe that sickness is the will of God and must be suffered then will you please stop fighting against His will by visiting physicians and taking medication that relieves some of the suffering? Yeesh!

[BenAdam]

This post is so full of STRAW that it is the envy of every barnyard. Horses and cows could feed for months here. I don't see Faithful Love's post even come close to implying what you are implying in your post. The fact is that my getting cancer (which in most cases is due to poor dieting) is not "suffering for the Lord." If I get wounded due to being beaten by radical Muslims for not backing down from my Testimony of Jesus Christ, of course I can expect God to heal me afterwards. But getting cancer and being beaten are two different things entirely. One of them I am asked to endure for the Lord's sake, the other I am told to ask God to heal immediately rather than suffer it.

If all you folks who believe that sickness is the will of God and must be suffered then will you please stop fighting against His will by visiting physicians and taking medication that relieves some of the suffering? Yeesh!

I agree getting cancer and being beaten for the Gospel's sake are completely different things. I also don't believe that God gives you sickness to make you suffer. I do have one question for you brother. You said:

If I get wounded due to being beaten by radical Muslims for not backing down from my Testimony of Jesus Christ, of course I can expect God to heal me afterwards.

Why wasn't Stephen healed? Or Paul, or Peter, or James, or Thomas, etc. They all died matyrs. Did Stephen not "receive" his healing? There are few people in scripture that are more highly spoken of than Stephen.

[GrapeGirl]

My dog had a hairy tick once. Is that what y'all are talkin about?????

[victoryword]

I agree getting cancer and being beaten for the Gospel's sake are completely different things. I also don't believe that God gives you sickness to make you suffer. I do have one question for you brother. You said:



Why wasn't Stephen healed? Or Paul, or Peter, or James, or Thomas, etc. They all died matyrs. Did Stephen not "receive" his healing? There are few people in scripture that are more highly spoken of than Stephen.

I hate nitpicky posts Ben. But if you want to be nitpicky, people don't need to be healed when they are DEAD! Also you forgot to mention John the Baptist. He had his head chopped off. Now here is another interesting note about John the Baptist and the fact that Jesus distinguishes between suffering persecution and suffering sickness and disease:

And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison. And his head was brought in a charger, and given to the damsel: and she brought it to her mother. And his disciples came, and took up the body, and buried it, and went and told Jesus. When Jesus heard of it, he departed thence by ship into a desert place apart: and when the people had heard thereof, they followed him on foot out of the cities. And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick. (Matt. 14:10-14)Now Jesus did not stop John's persecution and subsequent death as the result of persecution. Yet He was quick to heal the sick. John the Baptist died as a matter as the result of the persecution of men. he did not die of sickness and disease for the kingdom. Jesus knew that Satan was behind John's execution so He went and attacked Satan where it hurt him most which was the healing of sick bodies.

Now, we could also mention the fact that Paul did expect and did ask the churches to pray for his deliverance from his persecutors (Rom. 15:30, 31; 2 Cor. 1:10; 2 Thess. 3:1, 2).

[victoryword]

My dog had a hairy tick once. Is that what y'all are talkin about?????

Yep, according to the theological perspectives here, the poor dog of yours suffered that hairy tick as ordain by the sovereign God and therefore suffered for the Lord's sake for a mysterious purpose that he will not know until he gets to heaven.

After all, according to one cartoon movie, All Dogs Go to Heaven ;)

[Faithful Love]

This post is so full of STRAW that it is the envy of every barnyard. Horses and cows could feed for months here. I don't see Faithful Love's post even come close to implying what you are implying in your post. The fact is that my getting cancer (which in most cases is due to poor dieting) is not "suffering for the Lord." If I get wounded due to being beaten by radical Muslims for not backing down from my Testimony of Jesus Christ, of course I can expect God to heal me afterwards. But getting cancer and being beaten are two different things entirely. One of them I am asked to endure for the Lord's sake, the other I am told to ask God to heal immediately rather than suffer it.

If all you folks who believe that sickness is the will of God and must be suffered then will you please stop fighting against His will by visiting physicians and taking medication that relieves some of the suffering? Yeesh!


Straw is all they know, VW. :doh:

[ImmersionX]

Who is "they"?

[Jimbeaux]

:doh:

You can rattle your brains pounding your forehead like that, FL.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[habeas]

I hate nitpicky posts Ben. But if you want to be nitpicky, people don't need to be healed when they are DEAD! Also you forgot to mention John the Baptist. He had his head chopped off. Now here is another interesting note about John the Baptist and the fact that Jesus distinguishes between suffering persecution and suffering sickness and disease:
And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison. And his head was brought in a charger, and given to the damsel: and she brought it to her mother. And his disciples came, and took up the body, and buried it, and went and told Jesus. When Jesus heard of it, he departed thence by ship into a desert place apart: and when the people had heard thereof, they followed him on foot out of the cities. And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick. (Matt. 14:10-14)
Now Jesus did not stop John's persecution and subsequent death as the result of persecution. Yet He was quick to heal the sick. John the Baptist died as a matter as the result of the persecution of men. he did not die of sickness and disease for the kingdom. Jesus knew that Satan was behind John's execution so He went and attacked Satan where it hurt him most which was the healing of sick bodies.

Now, we could also mention the fact that Paul did expect and did ask the churches to pray for his deliverance from his persecutors (Rom. 15:30, 31; 2 Cor. 1:10; 2 Thess. 3:1, 2).

Why would Jesus not just close up the wounds and reattach cut-off limbs, etc. before they became fatal? Jesus healed the ear of one of his persecutors which was cut off, but you say Jesus's death did not atone sufficiently to heal his own children from persecution wounds?

So, what I said was not straw, it is your doctrine that Jesus only heals diseases and not traumatic injuries, or at least not when they are caused by persecution - such as stoning, beheading, etc. (even though God did it in the OT for Daniel in the Lions den and his friends in the firey furnace).

Tell me where I'm wrong. Where's the straw? Are traumatic injuries covered in the atonement (PHIA) or only diseases?

If traumatic injuries are covered in the atonement, are those inflicted by persecutors covered also or not. You indicated in your first response to BenAdam that they were and in the next response to him you said they weren't, pointing to Jesus's reaction to John the Babtist.

[JimfromOhio]

This post is so full of STRAW that it is the envy of every barnyard. Horses and cows could feed for months here. I don't see Faithful Love's post even come close to implying what you are implying in your post. The fact is that my getting cancer (which in most cases is due to poor dieting) is not "suffering for the Lord." If I get wounded due to being beaten by radical Muslims for not backing down from my Testimony of Jesus Christ, of course I can expect God to heal me afterwards. But getting cancer and being beaten are two different things entirely. One of them I am asked to endure for the Lord's sake, the other I am told to ask God to heal immediately rather than suffer it.

If all you folks who believe that sickness is the will of God and must be suffered then will you please stop fighting against His will by visiting physicians and taking medication that relieves some of the suffering? Yeesh!



Looking back. I was very healthy until I was diagnosed with MS a few years ago. Even though I was legally disabled (deaf since birth by nerve damage in the inner ear), I played sports, was on a swim team, hardly missed any work and I was able to everything that "normal" people could do except that I could not hear that well. So, I was unable to learn anything from my healthy body. Its just that I was able to do many things that an unhealthy person could not do (which I learned later). I have Relapsing-remitting Multiple Sclerosis (RRMS) (Diagnosed in April 2002). (deafness caused by nerve damage, MS caused by nerve scars.) I am healthy today and hardly get sick however my MS can affect my daily activities. For the longest time, I thought I have planned and executed my life all by myself but really never aware that my life have always been guided by God.

One of the sources of thorns is weaknesses, due to sinful world and that I am still living in a sinful body that is still decaying, life is filled with pain and sorrow and suffering. Bad things happen to everybody because we are living in a sinful world. The sources of "thorns" can be weaknesses, insults, distresses, persecutions and difficulties (2 Corinthians 12). God uses suffering to perfect His "Power is perfected (grace) in weakness". Grace of heart is a gift from God and this has nothing to do with the thorns because God is changing me internally so that He to lift me above my present thorns and He will lead me into His will.

What does Paul mean when he wrote in 2 Corinthians 12:10 "That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." ?

Weaknesses: (From Strong's Greek #769) of strength, weakness, infirmity, of the body, its native weakness and frailty, feebleness of health or sickness, of the soul , want of strength and capacity requisite 1b, to understand a thing 1b, to do things great and glorious 1b, to restrain corrupt desires 1b, to bear trials and troubles

Insults: (From Strong's Greek #5196) insolence impudence, pride, haughtiness, a wrong springing from insolence, an injury, affront, insult, mental injury and wantonness of its infliction being prominent, injury inflicted by the violence of a tempest

Hardships: (From Strong's Greek #318) necessity, imposed either by the circumstances, or by law of duty regarding to one's advantage, custom, argument, calamity, distress, straits

Persecutions: (From Strong's Greek #1375) persecution

Difficulties: (From Strong's Greek #4730) narrowness of place, a narrow place, metaph. dire calamity, extreme affliction.

If you look at verse 9 leading up to verse 10..... God told Paul "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me." Did God's grace made Paul strong?

The main thing to understand and remember is that Jesus is OUR SHEPHERD that He will supply all OUR needs (Phil. 4:19) and that He knows everything about OUR LIVES (Ps. 139:3), cares about US (1 Pet. 5:7), has the power for every difficulty (Ps. 62:11), is perfecting US to be like Christ (Phil. 1:6), and that nothing escapes Him (Ps. 147:5), that will lead US to be stable, not anxious living in His GRACE.

I don't care how many "STRAWS" you see in any of those who oppose to your beliefs, you are still selecting what you want to believe and ignoring that sounds horrible. I believe that God can sovereignly choose to heal whomever and whenever according to His will:
1. The gospel is good news about our sin problem, not our sicknesses (Rom. 3:23; 6:23).
2. Christ’s atonement focuses primarily upon our sins (iniquities), not our sicknesses (Lev. 16:1-34; Is. 53:5-6, 11-12; 1 Pet. 2:24).
3. Christ died for our sins, not our sicknesses (1 Cor. 15:3).
4. Christ was made sin, not sickness (2 Cor. 5:21).
5. Christ forgave our sins, not our sicknesses (1 John 2:12).
6. Christ gave Himself for our sins, not our sickness (Gal. 1:4).
7. Our bodies are corruptible and thus subject to sickness (1 Cor. 15:42-44).
8. We will all die physically (Heb. 9:27).

Bad circumstances are NOT always about our responsibility whether we sinned or not (even though it does happen more often due to disobedience). Great faiths and regular Christians went through hard times even though they were not at fault.

Oh by the way, I am glad that I made you laugh and I do believe its a "mockery" attitude of laugh. (By the way, I am assuming as much as those who are assuming why some are sick). ;)

[habeas]

If all you folks who believe that sickness is the will of God and must be suffered then will you please stop fighting against His will by visiting physicians and taking medication that relieves some of the suffering? Yeesh!

Okay, now that is a straw man. See, if we believe in God's will being mysterious sometimes, unlike you, it may very well be that God wills us to go to the doctor to seek treatment. The doctor could be needing being witnessed to, or he might need to make some money in his practice. Or, maybe I there's something I need to see on my way to the doctor's office.

Or, it may be that God did not desire me to be sick but he wants me to stop drinking 15 cups of coffee a day (gluttony) - so he allowed me to have chest pains as a result. Perhaps God wants me to seek out the cure to effectuate another end. Nothing is beyond the realm of possibility with God.

And also, the tone of your post does not sound like you really want "another honest debate." :D Perhaps another thread would be better for you.

[dkbwarrior]

Why would Jesus not just close up the wounds and reattach cut-off limbs, etc. before they became fatal? Jesus healed the ear of one of his persecutors which was cut off, but you say Jesus's death did not atone sufficiently to heal his own children from persecution wounds?

So, what I said was not straw, it is your doctrine that Jesus only heals diseases and not traumatic injuries, or at least not when they are caused by persecution - such as stoning, beheading, etc. (even though God did it in the OT for Daniel in the Lions den and his friends in the firey furnace).

Tell me where I'm wrong. Where's the straw? Are traumatic injuries covered in the atonement (PHIA) or only diseases?

If traumatic injuries are covered in the atonement, are those inflicted by persecutors covered also or not. You indicated in your first response to BenAdam that they were and in the next response to him you said they weren't, pointing to Jesus's reaction to John the Babtist.

Straw, as in reference to strawman, meaning to attribute a position, action or belief to another that is false, in order to then succesfully argue against it. It is actually a cowardly way to debate, because it is not honest.

Most people are aware that they are being deceptive when they do it, but they are usually so angry and convinced that they are right that they justify it to themselves on those grounds.

Example of straw in the post above:

...you say Jesus's death did not atone sufficiently to heal his own children from persecution wounds...

Of course he said nothing like that. He said that Jesus promised us persecution, not that His death was insufficient to atone for such. This is the one area where Jesus specifically told us that God excercises His soveriegnity on a case by case basis. I am surprised that you cannot understand WOF position on this. After all, our position on persecution is exactly the same position that you have on sickness. That is, that it is generally Gods will to deliver from the effects of persecution, but not neccesarily His will to keep us from persecution; and there are times in His soveriegn will that He allows us the glory of laying down our lives for the gospel.

We can consistently hold to this position because it is scriptural. The New Testament says that all who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution, and Jesus said that we would be hated of all men for His sake. There is no scripture that promises us freedom from persecution. This is good theology, because it is biblical.

Regarding sickness however, there is no scripture where we are told that all who are christians will suffer sickness, or that sickness will attack us for His sake. But there are many promises of healing and health to Gods servants. Therefore, this is also good theology, because it is biblical.

I could take your posts in this thread apart, sentence by sentence, and show the other such deceptive strawman arguments in them, but I will spare you that. Besides, I am sure that you are aware every time you misrepresent someone in that manner. That is something that your own conscience will have to struggle with.

Peace...

[habeas]

Straw, as in reference to strawman, meaning to attribute a position, action or belief to another that is false, in order to then succesfully argue against it. It is actually a cowardly way to debate, because it is not honest.

Most people are aware that they are being deceptive when they do it, but they are usually so angry and convinced that they are right that they justify it to themselves on those grounds.

Example of straw in the post above:



Of course he said nothing like that. He said that Jesus promised us persecution, not that His death was insufficient to atone for such. This is the one area where Jesus specifically told us that God excercises His soveriegnity on a case by case basis. I am surprised that you cannot understand WOF position on this. After all, our position on persecution is exactly the same position that you have on sickness. That is, that it is generally Gods will to deliver from the effects of persecution, but not neccesarily His will to keep us from persecution; and there are times in His soveriegn will that He allows us the glory of laying down our lives for the gospel.

We can consistently hold to this position because it is scriptural. The New Testament says that all who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution, and Jesus said that we would be hated of all men for His sake. There is no scripture that promises us freedom from persecution. This is good theology, because it is biblical.

Regarding sickness however, there is no scripture where we are told that all who are christians will suffer sickness, or that sickness will attack us for His sake. But there are many promises of healing and health to Gods servants. Therefore, this is also good theology, because it is biblical.

I could take your posts in this thread apart, sentence by sentence, and show the other such deceptive strawman arguments in them, but I will spare you that. Besides, I am sure that you are aware every time you misrepresent someone in that manner. That is something that your own conscience will have to struggle with.

Peace...

You can't answer the questions can you?

1) Did Jesus's atonement cover sudden traumatic injuries/wounds or only diseases?

2) If the answer to Q. 1 above is yes, is there a specific exemption such that the atonement doesn't cover sudden traumatic injuries/wounds if they are caused by persecution?

You say I don't understand your doctrine (or I deceitfully do) and I'm creating strawmen. However, I have had the question answered differently by at least one WOFer here, the only other one I've posed this question to. I can't even get a clarification.

My conscience doesn't struggle with misrepresenting something WOFers here never consistently represent themselves.

And "Peace," back at you. If you you can tear my assertions apart piece by piece, as you so boastfully claim, why don't you just answer 1 and 2 above. Thanks.

[dkbwarrior]

You can't answer the questions can you?


I didn't know they were directed at me. Sure, I will answer.




1) Did Jesus's atonement cover sudden traumatic injuries/wounds or only diseases?


Yes, the atonement covers everything, including traumatic injuries/wounds.




2) If the answer to Q. 1 above is yes, is there a specific exemption such that the atonement doesn't cover sudden traumatic injuries/wounds if they are caused by persecution?


Well, it depends how you ask the question I guess. There is no exception for believers in the sense that we will all receive glorified bodies, but there is an exemption to being able to access that coverage in this life based on the sovereignity of God. That is exemption is found in the Bible:

12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
-Luke 21:12-16

This is only one of several scriptures that clearly and unambiguosly tell us that we will suffer persecution and even sometimes death for His sake, at the hands of other men. This is a definate exception.

There is no comparable scripture in the entire Bible, not even one, that promises us that some of us will be sick, and some of will even have to die of sickness and/or disease.

On the contrary, we are told that sickness and disease come from the enemy, satan, and that we have power over him in the name of Jesus.




You say I don't understand your doctrine (or I deceitfully do) and I'm creating strawmen.


I didn't say that you understood it deceitfully, I said you misrepresented it.




However, I have had the question answered differently by at least one WOFer here, the only other one I've posed this question to. I can't even get a clarification.


WOF, like Spirit FIlled, is not homogenous, I can only speak for myself, and what I believe most other WOF believe.




My conscience doesn't struggle with misrepresenting something WOFers here never consistently represent themselves.


You didn't address WOF in general in that post. You were addressing Victory Word. And you claimed that he said that. And he did not.

Peace...

[habeas]

I have a response but my husband has returned home. I need to go.

[victoryword]

Okay, now that is a straw man. See, if we believe in God's will being mysterious sometimes, unlike you, it may very well be that God wills us to go to the doctor to seek treatment. The doctor could be needing being witnessed to, or he might need to make some money in his practice. Or, maybe I there's something I need to see on my way to the doctor's office.

Or, it may be that God did not desire me to be sick but he wants me to stop drinking 15 cups of coffee a day (gluttony) - so he allowed me to have chest pains as a result. Perhaps God wants me to seek out the cure to effectuate another end. Nothing is beyond the realm of possibility with God.

And also, the tone of your post does not sound like you really want "another honest debate." :D Perhaps another thread would be better for you.

So I see then. In your idealogical view, God's will is so mysterious that the sick person does not know whether or not he is suffering for the glory of God or not. Therefore, without consulting God to find out whether or not one should visit the physician, one must determine find out this "mystery" by visiting the doctor or look at how much coffee they may be drinking. If the medicines and treatments the doctor gives does not cure the sickness or the dieting of the 15 cups of coffee does not bring relief, then one must conclude that the suffering is the will of God.

I have a hard time wrapping my head around this. I mean what about the side effects that come from certain medications. Just listening to the commercials on TV for certain medications and their list of possible side effects makes me wonder how the will of God might play into that. Is suffering medication side effects possibly the mysterious will of God? Do they bring Him some type of glory?

Now, my Bible seems to teach slightly different on this subject. My BIble teaches me that I am to find out His will before I assume that something is His will by the process of elimination:

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths (Prov. 3:5, 6).

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him (James 1:5)

The Bible tells us, "Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is" (Eph. 5:17). The Bible tells us that it is unwise not to understand what the will of the Lord is. That is why He provides wisdom. Those of you who want to keep holding to God's will as some type of "mystery" are being unwise according to Paul's teaching.

Finally, Calvinists teach a "secret will" of God and a "revealed will." These two wills contradict one another (though Calvinists would not put it in those terms). For example, Calvinists acknowledge the revealed will of God is that all men be saved (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9), but the secret will of God is that some are predestined for heaven and others to hell. This is all based on some secret decree within the counsels of the Almighty.

Some of you might find such a belief distasteful. Yet many of you are very much Calvinists when it comes to divine healing.

[victoryword]

If traumatic injuries are covered in the atonement, are those inflicted by persecutors covered also or not. You indicated in your first response to BenAdam that they were and in the next response to him you said they weren't, pointing to Jesus's reaction to John the Babtist.

It really isn't that complicated. If I live as a result of the persecution then I trust God to bind up any wounds that were inflicted on me. There is testimony to this happening in our present day.

If I die due to the persecution, there is no need for me to have my wounds binded up. I'm in Heaven where the ultimate healing has occurred. On the other hand, if I get some people around me praying for me, I can even be raised from the dead:

This passage could actually speak to both:

And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead. Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe (Acts 14:19, 20)

I hope that this helps.

[GreatistheLord]

I would say it depends on how well they know the Bible. If they can read passages about faith, and conveniently ignore them, then they only fool themselves.

However, many WOFers do the same thing when it comes to suffering and persecution.

[victoryword]

I would say it depends on how well they know the Bible. If they can read passages about faith, and conveniently ignore them, then they only fool themselves.

However, many WOFers do the same thing when it comes to suffering and persecution.

That is true. But it is something I would take to the WoF forum personally.