Honest Debate here.....

[ImmersionX]

Is Word-Faith/Word of Faith=modern day heresy within the church today!?

Is it?

...Is it a twisting of the Gospel eh?



Then answer this and be honest! For or against the question.

[Elijah2]

Mate WOF, is who they are, and their is nothing that you can do about it. Just the same the TB Worshippers.

I have been watching the counterfeit and false spirit for a long time, and when the Kundalini spirit came into of the Body of Christ, also seduction and deception came with it.

Try telling an yoga or martial arts Christian followers that they are practising another relgion's power of darkness.

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

[The Lord is my banner]

Word-Faith, Word of Faith=modern day heresy within the church today!

Is it?

Definately a twisting of the Gospel eh?
I'm sick of debating I want honesty here!
No-holds barred...can you handle this CF?
HONEST DEBATE?????????????????????????????????????
This is a long time coming judging from the past postings/threads, and the total argumentative stance of all threads involving WoF doctrine in question!

Got game?
Then answer this and be honest! For or against the question.


Just because we have a forum for debate doesn't mean it's ok to flame a recognised Christian group.

(And no, I haven't reported you, but I would think it won't be long before someone does!)

[dkbwarrior]

Just because we have a forum for debate doesn't mean it's ok to flame a recognised Christian group.

(And no, I haven't reported you, but I would think it won't be long before someone does!)

I agree. Cant we debate what we disasgree on without resorting to calling names?


Word-Faith, Word of Faith=modern day heresy within the church today!

Is it?

Definately a twisting of the Gospel eh?
I'm sick of debating I want honesty here!
No-holds barred...can you handle this CF?
HONEST DEBATE?????????????????????????????????????
This is a long time coming judging from the past postings/threads, and the total argumentative stance of all threads involving WoF doctrine in question!

Got game?
Then answer this and be honest! For or against the question.


I'm not sure what you wish to accomplish. What is a long time coming? A pole? And how does that settle anything? If there are more WOF people here and they vote no, does that make it not true? And if there are more anti-WOF people here and they vote yes, does that make it true?

The church is a theocracy, not a democracy. Majority rule doesn't interpret the Bible, for or against something. In fact, historically speaking, great moves of God were resisted by the majority, from Moses to Jesus.

I think your anger needs adjustement. Dont let the sun go down on your wrath. Mabey you should consider why it is that you get so angry at the quoted Word of God, when it involves the promises of God that Jesus shed His blood to confirm.

Peace...

[BenAdam]

My vote was..............

No.

I have my issues with WoF but for the most part I call them brothers and sisters. I may not agree with all the doctrine, but I do with some.

[spiritman]

Word-Faith, Word of Faith=modern day heresy within the church today!

Is it?

Definately a twisting of the Gospel eh?
I'm sick of debating I want honesty here!
No-holds barred...can you handle this CF?
HONEST DEBATE?????????????????????????????????????
This is a long time coming judging from the past postings/threads, and the total argumentative stance of all threads involving WoF doctrine in question!

Got game?
Then answer this and be honest! For or against the question.

I'm sure you could list many things you dislike/hate about the wof but what would be your one most upsetting issue?

[Alpine]

ImmersionX, have you ever been in a wof church or do you go just off what you have heard?

I don't consider myself wof anymore, but I'd never call wof heretics or non Christian. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Some of the best Christians I've ever known were wof.

It disgusts me reading that kind of talk on this forum.

I'm really fed up with it.

[victoryword]

Ah, a poll? Not sure if I would touch this thread with a ten foot one though. :D

[Faithful Love]

Ah, a poll? Not sure if I would touch this thread with a ten foot one though. :D


:P^_^

[PETE_]

Mod Hat On
The OP is stating that WoF is modern day heresy and asking the question, "Is it?" meaning the discussion will be pros and cons. Please make sure this doesn't escalate into a flame war, and stays within the for and against the question. Stick to the topic and avoid flaming, broad brushing accusations of the movement, and attacks against the members needs to be avoided.
Mod Hat Off

[Balance]

I'm up for open debate - but this is just broad brush accusations of an entire people group.

It's the same stuff different day that we've been made to suffer through in the past.

[BenAdam]

I'm up for open debate - but this is just broad brush accusations of an entire people group.

It's the same stuff different day that we've been made to suffer through in the past.






Yet I'm sure that some of the responses have suprised you.

[Balance]

Yet I'm sure that some of the responses have suprised you.


Actually my friend, after two years of this crap there is NOTHING that surprises me.

It does however make me wonder why I even waste my time. No matter what is said the Word of Faith is wrong.

If I do not reply, then "my position is so weak I cannot respond"

If I do make a strong reply "my position is so weak, I'm getting defensive"

I post links to Word of Faith Doctrinal statements and show seven other non-Word of Faith that have the same statements and those facts are completely ignored and the accusations increase.

There's no open honest debate here - there never has been -

Remember the moratorium? Here's the start of going down that path again -

You will not hear word one from me - I give up.

[BenAdam]

Actually my friend, after two years of this crap there is NOTHING that surprises me.

It does however make me wonder why I even waste my time. No matter what is said the Word of Faith is wrong.

If I do not reply, then "my position is so weak I cannot respond"

If I do make a strong reply "my position is so weak, I'm getting defensive"

I post links to Word of Faith Doctrinal statements and show seven other non-Word of Faith that have the same statements and those facts are completely ignored and the accusations increase.

There's no open honest debate here - there never has been -

Remember the moratorium? Here's the start of going down that path again -

You will not hear word one from me - I give up.


Dude, you can't make everyone happy, whether or not you are right or wrong.

Seriousl question for you. Is Jesus your Lord?

[~RENEE~]

I was not going to say a thing but now I am.

does anyone read the rules anymore?


Flaming, baiting, trolling, or feeding trolls is not allowed. This also applies to groups. In other words, play nice, don't hurt others, nor call them names.


Now taken from the OP.


Word-Faith, Word of Faith=modern day heresy within the church today!

[BenAdam]

I was not going to say a thing but now I am.

does anyone read the rules anymore?


Now taken from the OP.

Context, it is a wonderful thing.

[geetrue]

There's no open honest debate here - there never has been -

If we agree ... how do we change this obvious problem?

This debate sticky looks like an attempt to do just that.

We don't have to wade through all of the puppy dog stories to get to the meat of the problem over here.

I would like for the mods to come up with the debate questions ... wording them in a way to have a real debate with CF guide lines and common sense not to use offending language.

We can't say, "sit down and shut up" in a forum like we can if you were on a stage, but we can ignore.

What happened to the sticky dids use to have covering all of these topics, we could just cut and paste from those postings, uh?

The poll is running 8 to 1 ... explain that one OP.

[Optimax]

Actually my friend, after two years of this crap there is NOTHING that surprises me.

It does however make me wonder why I even waste my time. No matter what is said the Word of Faith is wrong.

If I do not reply, then "my position is so weak I cannot respond"

If I do make a strong reply "my position is so weak, I'm getting defensive"

I post links to Word of Faith Doctrinal statements and show seven other non-Word of Faith that have the same statements and those facts are completely ignored and the accusations increase.

There's no open honest debate here - there never has been -

Remember the moratorium? Here's the start of going down that path again -

You will not hear word one from me - I give up.


:thumbsup:

[Balance]

Dude, you can't make everyone happy, whether or not you are right or wrong.

Seriousl question for you. Is Jesus your Lord?

Serious question for you -

Do you not see this statement as a flame:

Word-Faith, Word of Faith=modern day heresy within the church today!

Is it?

Definately a twisting of the Gospel eh?

Because you agree with it?

And dude - you don't have to make everybody happy - but you should treat everyone with the same respect.

If the same mutliple threads were open talking about Baptist or Catholics or Calvary Chapel or Vineyard - are you telling me I can call them heretics and it would not be ruled flaming? Because I'll show you dozens of times that is has. And people have been banned for doing so.

It's just acceptable to do so with Word of Faith and no one else -

I don't want you to make me or anyone else happy - but I do expect equal protection from baseless attacks.

[Sheeple]

ImmersionX, have you ever been in a wof church or do you go just off what you have heard?

I don't consider myself wof anymore, but I'd never call wof heretics or non Christian. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Some of the best Christians I've ever known were wof.

It disgusts me reading that kind of talk on this forum.

I'm really fed up with it.

Well I wouldn't call them non-christian, however much of the doctrine assaults the Bible and literally all of the core essentials of the faith. Are they heretics? Yeah.. some of the teachers fit in the category, but I wouldn't go as far as to label them non christians.

Do we need to go point by point?

[Balance]

Well I wouldn't call them non-christian, however much of the doctrine assaults the Bible and literally all of the core essentials of the faith. Are they heretics? Yeah.. some of the teachers fit in the category, but I wouldn't go as far as to label them non christians.

Do we need to go point by point?

Define heretic.

[Sheeple]

Define heretic.

dictionary dot com
1.a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church. 2.Roman Catholic Church. a baptized Roman Catholic who willfully and persistently rejects any article of faith. 3.anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.

so in the modern day usage..it would be anyone who deviates from the essentials of the faith. I look at it this way. There are essentials and non essentials...the essentials are things like: the diety of christ, enerrancey of scripture, the atonement, etc..

The non-essentials are things that are widely debated in the body, that you can disagree on and still walk away friends.

Heretics do violence to the essential truths of scripture.

For example:

WOF =

The atonement: Jesus went to hell, was punished by the devil for three days; it was only his "spiritual death" on the cross that purchased salvation and he was the first born again man. Those are heretical teachings because they assault essentials of the faith.

[The Lord is my banner]

I'm not "WoF" but I don't think it's heresy, and I agree with most of their teachings so far as I've seen and understood them so far.

I am pretty amazed this thread is still open and unedited, since the OP flamed them rudely and provocatively. Could I start a thread saying anti-wof, or Catholic, or Anglican or any other Christian group were heretics, and not be asked to edit or have my thread closed or removed? I don't think so!

[The Lord is my banner]

Define heretic.


Any person who disagrees with ME! ;)

[BenAdam]

Serious question for you -

Do you not see this statement as a flame:

Word-Faith, Word of Faith=modern day heresy within the church today!

Is it?

Definately a twisting of the Gospel eh?

Because you agree with it?

And dude - you don't have to make everybody happy - but you should treat everyone with the same respect.

If the same mutliple threads were open talking about Baptist or Catholics or Calvary Chapel or Vineyard - are you telling me I can call them heretics and it would not be ruled flaming? Because I'll show you dozens of times that is has. And people have been banned for doing so.

It's just acceptable to do so with Word of Faith and no one else -

I don't want you to make me or anyone else happy - but I do expect equal protection from baseless attacks.





answer my question and I'll happily answer yours

[Sheeple]

answer my question and I'll happily answer yours

I thought t he point of t his category was Spirit Filled / Charismatic Debate (http://christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=988).

It seems they made it just for that reason to debate.

[dkbwarrior]

Heretics do violence to the essential truths of scripture.

For example:

WOF =

The atonement: Jesus went to hell, was punished by the devil for three days; it was only his "spiritual death" on the cross that purchased salvation and he was the first born again man. Those are heretical teachings because they assault essentials of the faith.

This is not a WOF specific teaching, nor is it believed by all WOF adherants. Also, it is a teaching that is found in other mainline denominations that are neither WOF nor charismatic.

For instance, both Martin Luther, and John Calvin, held to the bulk of this theology, and it has an orthodox history going all the way back to Constantine.

By choosing this as your battle ground for heresy, you disqualify a huge portion of the historical and orthodox church from your definition of christiandom.

I don't have the time or energy to go all round the block with you on this, but I would encourage you to do an in depth study before you blithely cast off billions of believers from the first century onward.

I know that there are plenty of WOF beliefs that you could argue with, and I suspect you picked this one because it is the only one that you could use to justify the label of heretic.

Unfortunately, it is not a WOF doctrine, but an orthodox one, that many WOF happen to have adopted. Thus your argument must be with its orthodoxy, not the WOF movement.

Peace...

[charityagape]

Mate WOF, is who they are, and their is nothing that you can do about it. Just the same the TB Worshippers.

I have been watching the counterfeit and false spirit for a long time, and when the Kundalini spirit came into of the Body of Christ, also seduction and deception came with it.

Try telling an yoga or martial arts Christian followers that they are practising another relgion's power of darkness.

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

:D You can't be into karate and be a Christian?

[BenAdam]

:D You can't be into karate and be a Christian?


Maybe karate, but definitely not Kung Fu!!!!;)

http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/Previews/Kung-Fu-tv-show-10.jpg

[charityagape]

Dude, you can't make everyone happy, whether or not you are right or wrong.

Seriousl question for you. Is Jesus your Lord?


Now there is one WISE saying............it should be the Christian unity postor. Seriously it could unite WOF, Pentecostal, Post-Charismatic, Charismatic, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, etc........................


"Is Jesus your Lord?" "Yes" "Well, welcome brother" "Do you speak in tongues" "No" "Well Dude, you can't make everyone happy, whether you're right or wrong, but is Jesus your Lord?" "Yes" "Well, welcome, brother.":D

[charityagape]

Context, it is a wonderful thing.

;) Context.

Word-Faith, Word of Faith=modern day heresy within the church today!

Is it?

Definately a twisting of the Gospel eh?
I'm sick of debating I want honesty here!
No-holds barred...can you handle this CF?
HONEST DEBATE?????????????????????????????????????
This is a long time coming judging from the past postings/threads, and the total argumentative stance of all threads involving WoF doctrine in question!

Got game?
Then answer this and be honest! For or against the question.

[charityagape]

dictionary dot com
1.a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church. 2.Roman Catholic Church. a baptized Roman Catholic who willfully and persistently rejects any article of faith. 3.anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.

so in the modern day usage..it would be anyone who deviates from the essentials of the faith. I look at it this way. There are essentials and non essentials...the essentials are things like: the diety of christ, enerrancey of scripture, the atonement, etc..

The non-essentials are things that are widely debated in the body, that you can disagree on and still walk away friends.

Heretics do violence to the essential truths of scripture.

For example:

WOF =

The atonement: Jesus went to hell, was punished by the devil for three days; it was only his "spiritual death" on the cross that purchased salvation and he was the first born again man. Those are heretical teachings because they assault essentials of the faith.

;)29For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:28-30;&version=45;#fen-AMP-28144b)]aware and [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:28-30;&version=45;#fen-AMP-28144c)]loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren.

[~RENEE~]

Word-Faith, Word of Faith=modern day heresy within the church today!This IS flaiming and baiting.

Is it?Yes it IS flaiming and baiting.

...a twisting of the Gospel eh?



Then answer this and be honest! For or against the question.Now for the op's question.
NO!

[Jimbeaux]

Gnostics denied that Christ had come in the flesh. Ergo, they were heretics. WOF, as a belief system, does not deny Christ.

~Jim

Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

[charityagape]

Maybe karate, but definitely not Kung Fu!!!!;)

http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/Previews/Kung-Fu-tv-show-10.jpg

I love that show. Glad it doesn't make me not a Christian.

[BenAdam]

I love that show. Glad it doesn't make me not a Christian.


Only watching one of them there wof preachers makes you a non-christian ;)

[victoryword]

For example:

WOF =

The atonement: Jesus went to hell, was punished by the devil for three days; it was only his "spiritual death" on the cross that purchased salvation and he was the first born again man. Those are heretical teachings because they assault essentials of the faith.

I know. What heresy, huh? Unfortunately, it wasn't limited to the WoF. Here are a couple of more heretics who taught that stuff:

If Christ had dies only a bodily death, it would have been ineffectual. No – it was expedient at the same time for him to undergo the severity of God's vengeance, to appease his wrath and satisfy his just judgement. For this reason, he must also grapple hand to hand with the armies of hell and and the dread of everlasting death ... Christ was put in place of evildoers as surety and pledge – submitting himself even as the accused – to bear and suffer all the punishments that they ought to have sustained. All this with one exception: "He could not be held by the pangs of death." (John Calvin's Institutes)

No wonder, then, if he is said to have descended into hell, for he suffered the death that God in his wrath had inflicted upon the wicked! Those who – on the ground that it is absurd to put after his burial what preceded it – say that the order is reversed in this way are making a trifling and ridiculous objection. The point is that the Creed sets forth what Christ suffered in the sight of men, and then appositely speaks of that invisible and incomprehensible judgement which he underwent in the sight of God in order that we might know not only that Christ's body was given as the price of our redemption, but that he paid a greater and more excellent price in suffering in his soul the terrible torments of a condemned and forsaken man. (John Calvin's Institutes)

He found Himself in a state of condemnation and abandonment . . . He actually and in truth offered Himself to the eternal Father to be consigned to eternal damnation for us. His human nature did not behave differently from that of a man who is to be condemned eternally to hell. On account of this love of God, God at once raised Him from death and hell, and so He overcame hell. (Martin Luther's Commentary on Romans)

[dkbwarrior]

Only watching one of them thar wof preachers makes you a non-christian ;)

Fixed that for ya pirate...

Peace...

[Balance]

answer my question and I'll happily answer yours

I will happily answer your question - emphatically yes - Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour -

I now look forward to just as direct reply to mine!

Serious question for you -

Do you not see this statement as a flame:

Word-Faith, Word of Faith=modern day heresy within the church today!

Is it?

Definately a twisting of the Gospel eh?

Because you agree with it?

Blessing to you!

[Balance]

Only watching one of them there wof preachers makes you a non-christian ;)


LOL

Arrr Matey

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd146/Shabigale/103_0342_2.jpg

[JimfromOhio]

You know, I have been studying Gnosticism and yes, there are many similarilies in their doctrines. :)

Gnostic (knowledge Gk.,gnosis) is like experiencing ascend higher into the eternal consciousness in which we cannot. I know I can't. What I can is knowing God is through right thinking about God which is very essential to true intimacy with Him. All we can know with any certainty about God is what is revealed in Scripture. I know the true God in the true way is thoroughly familiar with His Word which is the Bible.

[BenAdam]

I will happily answer your question - emphatically yes - Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour -

I now look forward to just as direct reply to mine!


Ok then, I wouldn't worry about what we say here about you. As long as your conscience is clear before the Lord you are doing good my brother.


Serious question for you -

Do you not see this statement as a flame:


Word-Faith, Word of Faith=modern day heresy within the church today!


Is it?

Definately a twisting of the Gospel eh?

Because you agree with it?




It really depends. I can see that some would see it as a flame. In fact, the OP may have meant it as one. However I think it is a valid question as well.

I would never have said this and I don't agree with it. WoF people are not IMHO heretics. Some may be, but every group has that, has nothing to do with being WoF.

[BenAdam]

You know, I have been studying Gnosticism and yes, there are many similarilies in their doctrines. :)

You could also find similarities between Arminianism and Pelgainism, but that doesn't mean they are the same.

[JimfromOhio]

You could also find similarities between Arminianism and Pelgainism, but that doesn't mean they are the same.

Yep... I have seen many Christians have attributes to Pelgainism and other heretic doctrines. By nature, Christians CAN BE heretic. I don't know if my doctrines are 100% true, I think I am about 90% accurate.

If your doctrines not 100% accurate, you are a heretic. Period.

[BenAdam]

Yep... I have seen many Christians have attributes to Pelgainism and other heretic doctrines. By nature, Christians CAN BE heretic. I don't know if my doctrines are 100% true, I think I am about 90% accurate.

If your doctrines not 100% accurate, you are a heretic. Period.


Well I don't buy that if all your doctrines are not accurate you are a heretic. There are some doctrines more important that others, sanctification by grace, propitiation of Christ, etc. My eschatology as long as it accepts a future return of Christ doesn't really matter, nor does it make me a heretic. Conversely, you could be 99% right and be wrong about Jesus being God and be a huge heretic.

[JimfromOhio]

Well I don't buy that if all your doctrines are not accurate you are a heretic. There are some doctrines more important that others, sanctification by grace, propitiation of Christ, etc. My eschatology as long as it accepts a future return of Christ doesn't really matter, nor does it make me a heretic. Conversely, you could be 99% right and be wrong about Jesus being God and be a huge heretic.
What I can is knowing God is through right thinking about God which is very essential to true intimacy with Him. All we can know with any certainty about God is what is revealed in Scripture. I know the true God in the true way is thoroughly familiar with His Word which is the Bible. If I don't view them as the essentials of Christian life and practice simply because of the motives in our Christian lives should be both holy and genuine. I cannot say my doctrines are truth which they are not because the Bible is truth while doctrines are taught by man. I am a Christian FIRST while doctrines are secondary.

[BenAdam]

Brings a certain section of scripture to mind:

1 Cor 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

[charityagape]

Yep... I have seen many Christians have attributes to Pelgainism and other heretic doctrines. By nature, Christians CAN BE heretic. I don't know if my doctrines are 100% true, I think I am about 90% accurate.

If your doctrines not 100% accurate, you are a heretic. Period.

90%, wow that's pretty high.

[JimfromOhio]

90%, wow that's pretty high.

When I was a newby Christian, I was at 1% and over 35 years later, I believe I know where I stand in my beliefs. ;)

[The Lord is my banner]

Wow, this quote is new to me, but deepens my comprehension and appreciation of the cross:


He found Himself in a state of condemnation and abandonment . . . He actually and in truth offered Himself to the eternal Father to be consigned to eternal damnation for us. His human nature did not behave differently from that of a man who is to be condemned eternally to hell. On account of this love of God, God at once raised Him from death and hell, and so He overcame hell. (Martin Luther's Commentary on Romans)




Now, off-topic, but...

This is interesting from a pedant parlour point of view:

Only watching one of them there wof preachers makes you a non-christian ;)



Fixed that for ya pirate...
Originally Posted by BenAdam http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47764254#post47764254)
Only watching one of them thar wof preachers makes you a non-christian ;)
Peace...


BenAdam, it must be extremely hard to maintain both piracy and pedantry at all times! ^_^

[didaskalos]

Anyone who would compare what WoF teaches to Gnosticism has some very twisted definitions there.There is no "secret knowledge" in WoF. There are no "archons" and nobody denies that Jesus came in the flesh and they do not deny that Jesus rose from the dead. These are all cornerstones of gnosticism.
No comparison at all.

[Mathetes the kerux]

Is Word-Faith/Word of Faith=modern day heresy within the church today!?

Is it?

...Is it a twisting of the Gospel eh?



Then answer this and be honest! For or against the question.

Yes . . . but not all of it. The movement is schisiming.

And NOT like Gnosticism.