Please pray for Ben.

[Radiata]

I know that not everyone reads the prayer forum and I'm sorry for bringing this out of it, but this is a matter of most importance for me. Ben just updated his caringbridge journal and I'm getting desparate. Things are looking so bad for him. Reading it put a shock in me and I beg everyone to pray for him. This is the person that has done unbelievable things to advance God's kingdom and he can be used greatly to continue His work if he survives. I love him far too much and he is a much better witness to others than I ever could.

Past updates can be viewed here.
http://www.caringbridge.org/cb/viewJournal.do?method=executeInit
Today has been really hard. The news from the Dr was hard; the large liver tumor is not growing but two smaller ones are, and there is growth in the intestine tumor, and l have 2 spots on my brain that maybe cancerous.

The spots on the brain can be cured by Gamma Knife radiation, which l will be doing soon. The other tumors mean that my chemo is not working, in spite of making me feel better. This means different treatments, which really make me nervous since the last treatments seemed to not affect me as much. l am waiting for an appointment with a new Dr to do the new treatment, my current Dr does not do it.

Please continue to pray for a miracle, my life is still in God's powerful hands, and he is still able to heal me. Also pray that God gives me strength and health this week as l'm not getting chemo, and in two weeks l'm supposed to take a family vacation that l'm looking forward to. These are all in doubt right now, but pray with me.

My soul clings to you; your right hand upholds me. Psalm 63:8

[LilLamb219]

Praying

[HippiePoser]

Definitely praying.

[filosofer]

Lord, we look at the impossible and fear. Yet you are the great physician of body and soul. Grant healing to Ben, according to your amazing mercy. Surround him with faithful people to put flesh and bones to your love. Give him strength, patience, and especially hope and trust in you. In the midst of this turmoil and disease, give wisdom to the doctors and other medical staff who provide care. Encourage and support his family and friends.

Ultimately, Lord, we know that this is an age of trial, pain, suffering, and worse. Yet our ultimate hope is built on nothing less than Jesus Christ, and him crucified. We know that nothing can separate us from your love, not even death itself. Therefore, we trust in your mercy in all this, through Jesus Christ, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever. Amen

[Radiata]

So I have been told that people can't access the page. But you can get to it if you first go to this page (http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/benpaney) and then click the journal tab at the top, or the 'read journal' link at the bottom of the page.

[Flipper]

:crossrc:

[deepgreen11]

:groupray: Many praying.

[JCFantasy23]

Praying :(

[Radiata]

I found out some stuff yesterday. Large group bible study starts at 7:30, but my class goes from 6:30-9:50. Which means that I can't be there. After my class yesterday, I ran over to the meeting place, but Ben had already left. However, I was able to get a bit of info from our staff worker. Yesterday, Ben had his gamma knife treatment for the two spots on his brain and the doctors said that it went well. However, that still leaves the one in his liver and one more in another place. Even though the biggest one still isn't growing, it has refused to shrink, so now he's seeing yet another doctor for different treatment options. Please continue to pray for him during these times.

DeepGreen, if you find out anything about Ben, you can post it here. Thanks.

[seajoy]

:prayer:

[Radiata]

Yesterday I was able to catch Lois before she left large group. I even left class early for a chance to see Ben but he didn't go yesterday. So instead of him, Lios (His girlfriend?) gave me an update. She said that we can pray for several things including:

That Ben may be able to get some sleep. He's been waking up at 3am recently and he desperately needs his rest.

Strangely he doesn't feel good when he's not on chemo. He was put on a different chemo last week and we can pray that it goes well for him.

Remarkably he managed to feel good enough to take a vacation to visit his family. Pray that no complications happen while he is away.

We can also pray that God would provide wisdom to those in charge of his care as they ponder new treatments. There aren't many options left.

Thanks.

[Edial]

Yesterday I was able to catch Lois before she left large group. I even left class early for a chance to see Ben but he didn't go yesterday. So instead of him, Lios (His girlfriend?) gave me an update. She said that we can pray for several things including:

That Ben may be able to get some sleep. He's been waking up at 3am recently and he desperately needs his rest.

Strangely he doesn't feel good when he's not on chemo. He was put on a different chemo last week and we can pray that it goes well for him.

Remarkably he managed to feel good enough to take a vacation to visit his family. Pray that no complications happen while he is away.

We can also pray that God would provide wisdom to those in charge of his care as they ponder new treatments. There aren't many options left.

Thanks.
Praying for Ben.

[Radiata]

I was able to see Ben last night at bible study. He really doesn't look so good. I think it's the lack of eyebrows. He seems very worn out, and still sleepy. Not to mention that he is down to 125 lbs. We talked about his recent vacation to his friends in Maryland, my study of the bible, our TCL Reunion, among other things. He told me that some things that we could pray for is:

The pain level that isn't going away.

He's deciding on a new treatment next week.

That he can sleep at night.

His big tumor in his liver is still there but still not growing or shrinking.

The two in his brain are still there, but they seem to have been zapped pretty good with the gamma knife.

There are another two small ones in his intestine which I don't know the status.

And another thing he told me was that during these times, he is feeling distant from God. Ben, the greatest person I know, who walks in the path of righteousness far greater than I even thought possible, is now feeling like he is cut off from God. I realize that he has every right to feel this way, but I didn't think this could happen to him. Now I know things are more serious than I previously thought.

Any prayers for him would be great. Thanks.

[deepgreen11]

I was able to see Ben last night at bible study. He really doesn't look so good. I think it's the lack of eyebrows. He seems very worn out, and still sleepy. Not to mention that he is down to 125 lbs. We talked about his recent vacation to his friends in Maryland, my study of the bible, our TCL Reunion, among other things. He told me that some things that we could pray for is:

The pain level that isn't going away.

He's deciding on a new treatment next week.

That he can sleep at night.

His big tumor in his liver is still there but still not growing or shrinking.

The two in his brain are still there, but they seem to have been zapped pretty good with the gamma knife.

There are another two small ones in his intestine which I don't know the status.

And another thing he told me was that during these times, he is feeling distant from God. Ben, the greatest person I know, who walks in the path of righteousness far greater than I even thought possible, is now feeling like he is cut off from God. I realize that he has every right to feel this way, but I didn't think this could happen to him. Now I know things are more serious than I previously thought.

Any prayers for him would be great. Thanks.

:groupray: I will update my praying friends.
I will be praying :pray:

Sunday is Ben's birthday.

Thanks for the update.

[Radiata]

I was praying at work yesterday for him when I believe God gave me an idea. What if we were to bring Ben to one who has the spiritual gift of healing? I have come into contact with one before in Mexico, and I know that God has the power to heal him still. (See my testimony linked on my profile for the whole experience.) But those with this gify say that they can't heal everybody. Probably due to the fact that God is calling the person home. If these hundreds of people praying for Ben has had no noticeable effects on his body, then it remains a possibility that God wants to bring him home. What doesn't sit well with me is if he goes to one with this spiritual gift and he can't heal him. Then he would know that he is going to die very soon. I don't want him to go through that. His will alone is what kept him fighting these past 5ive years, and he would die faster if he lost the will to live due to the fact that God wants him home.

However, the die has been cast. Yesterday I emailed him to give me a call. He just did.

I told him about a man named Don who goes to our church. He happens to have the spiritual gift of healing and he can speak in tongues. Ben seemed very hopeful about this idea and says that he never thought of it before. Tomorrow, if Don is there, Dad will introduce me to him and I will be able to find out a time where hopefully he will be able to see Ben. From here on in, it's all in God's hands. Prayer is more essential than ever now. Anything you could do would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your support.

[LutheranMafia]

I have come into contact with one before in Mexico, and I know that God has the power to heal him still.
Stop now. You are referring to Mexican brujos and curanderas. While they can help with certain kinds of evil spiritual attacks, they have no understanding of the pact that a soul makes directly with God. They are easily brought to their wits end by "generational curses" (as describe by charismatics and "evenagelicals") even though these are the matters closest to their concerns. But what if someone decides to identify himself so closely with Jesus that he willfully wishes to take on some of the world's karma in order to save the world?? It is a false desire with a false promise, my friend, you can make a much greater difference by staying here in this crazy world, to show all the little children what fatherhood is really all about; what a truly paternal caring for all the children really means.

[Radiata]

Stop now. You are referring to Mexican brujos and curanderas. While they can help with certain kinds of evil spiritual attacks, they have no understanding of the pact that a soul makes directly with God. They are easily brought to their wits end by "generational curses" (as describe by charismatics and "evenagelicals") even though these are the matters closest to their concerns. But what if someones decides to identify himself so closely with Jesus that he willfully wishes to take on some of the world's karma in order to save the world?? It is a false desire with a false promise, my friend, you can make a much greater difference by staying here in this crazy world, to show all the little children what fatherhood is really all about; what a truly paternal caring for all the children really means.

Ummm k? Read my testimony linked in my profile to see what really happened in Mexico.

[DaRev]

I told him about a man named Don who goes to our church. He happens to have the spiritual gift of healing and he can speak in tongues.
[/FONT]

Oy vey! :doh:

Don't get his hopes up with that nonsense.

[Radiata]

Oy vey! :doh:

Don't get his hopes up with that nonsense.
You don't believe that some people have the spiritual gift of healing?

[DaRev]

You don't believe that some people have the spiritual gift of healing?

Of all those who claim to possess the gift of physical healing, I have heard of no legitimate example of anyone who was actually healed of a physical affliction.

The fact is that we all have the gift of healing. It's called prayer.

[Radiata]

Of all those who claim to possess the gift of physical healing, I have heard of no legitimate example of anyone who was actually healed of a physical affliction.

The fact is that we all have the gift of healing. It's called prayer.
What about my friend Shana in Mexico? The man that did it knew what he was doing. It's not as if he just prayed and left it in God's hands. He knew that it would be healed. If he didn't then, he wouldn't have anointed her head with oil and then pushed on her broken leg, expecting to get results. Aggravating a broken limb by pushing on it will never help. And after the trip, her MRI scan shows that it was as if it was never broken in the first place. (There was a previous scan that showed a definite break.)

[LutheranMafia]

Is Shana a Christian or a brujo/bruja? And if s/he is Christian, how Christian is s/he?

[Radiata]

She is a Christian. She goes to Risen Christ Church about a half hour from mine. I haven't seen her for quite a long while, but she was a big enough Christian to go to Mexico with us to minister to little kids 3 years in a row.

[LutheranMafia]

Upon what source does she claim her spiritual power?

[Radiata]

She did not claim any power, only recieved it. It was administered to her by a mexican pastor in the name of Jesus. Not in his own power.

Are you denying God's gift to people as told in Corinthians?

[LutheranMafia]

I am still dubious, but that does ease my fears. What denomination was this (not pure Catholic presumably)? The combination of Mexican semi-Santeria Catholic with Charismatic Reformed groups is especially dangerous.

[Radiata]

I am still dubious, but that does easy my fears. What denomination was this (not pure Catholic presumably)? The combination of Mexican semi-Santeria Catholic with Charismatic Reformed groups is especially dangerous.
I can't say for certain. I do know that all of the churches across the continent stayed in this one place and partnered up with local churches. Shana was in a different group than mine. Let's see, she was on team Thermodynamics, while I was on Krumaykers. Thermodynamics was the best team and they got their name from the second law of thermodynamics which states: The greater the heat the greater the expansion. Since we are in the heat of Mexico, the greater we must expand the love of Christ!

If it's necessary, I can find out the exact denomination/affiliation of this Mexican pastor by emailing a few of the witnesses and get back with you tomorrow.


We were a half hour over the Northern border of that helps any.

[DaRev]

What about my friend Shana in Mexico? The man that did it knew what he was doing. It's not as if he just prayed and left it in God's hands. He knew that it would be healed. If he didn't then, he wouldn't have anointed her head with oil and then pushed on her broken leg, expecting to get results. Aggravating a broken limb by pushing on it will never help. And after the trip, her MRI scan shows that it was as if it was never broken in the first place. (There was a previous scan that showed a definite break.)

Did you personally see the x-rays both before and after?

[Radiata]

Did you personally see the x-rays both before and after?
Yes.

[LutheranMafia]

Yes.You didn't answer my question. What denomination??

I have seen this sort of thing before, I have seen a woman with a dead eye, so dead it looked like marble, since she was 4 years old, have her eye pop back out, start tracking with the other eye, and after 4 months they gave here a surgery that clear the optic gunk from her inner eye such that she had a measure of sight, for the first time since she was 4.

What was it, a real healing, or demons fight other demons to produce a mitigated healing? Speed is the issue. This took months. How long did Jesus' healing take?

[Radiata]

You didn't answer my question. I have seen this sort of thing before, I have seen a woman with a dead eye, so dead it looked like marble, since she was 4 years old, have her eye pop back out, start tracking with the other eye, and after 4 months they gave here a surgery that clear the optic gunk from her inner eye such that she had a measure of sight, for the first time since she was 4.

What was it, a real healing, or demons fight other demons to produce a mitigated healing? Speed is the issue. This took months. How long did Jesus' healing take?I was answering Rev.

The healing in Shana's leg was instant. And it wasn't a matter of demons at all. It was just a broken leg. It was a definate act of God. No doubt about it. And why are you trying to crumble this miracle anyway? This is what I have based my faith on for the past 4 years.

[LutheranMafia]

What denomination?

Some choose to be healed for the wrong reasons, simply for group acceptances. I've seen it too often to lack doubt.

[Radiata]

What denomination?

Some choose to be healed for the wrong reasons, simply for group acceptances. I've seen it too often to lack doubt.
I think you didn't read my testimony very carefully. She didn't choose it at all. She was about to go home because of the pain in her leg. And the pastor of that church saw her in so much pain and told her to sit down... the rest is there.

[LutheranMafia]

The pastor of a church of what denomination?

[DaRev]

There are a lot of Pentecostals in Mexico.

[Edial]

What about my friend Shana in Mexico? The man that did it knew what he was doing. It's not as if he just prayed and left it in God's hands. He knew that it would be healed. If he didn't then, he wouldn't have anointed her head with oil and then pushed on her broken leg, expecting to get results. Aggravating a broken limb by pushing on it will never help. And after the trip, her MRI scan shows that it was as if it was never broken in the first place. (There was a previous scan that showed a definite break.)
God can do anything.

I had kerotoconus in both eyes.
So, a year and a half ago I had a cornea transplant in one of them. The surgery was not that successful, so I had a followup procedure this past April.

People knew that I was about to have a surgery and pastor's wife rather unexpectedly for me, prayed for me during service when congregants are given opportunity to pray during pastoral prayer.

That same (I think) Sunday evening another pastor (non-Lutheran) wanted to pray for me and he anointed my forehead with oil.

Two days later my OTHER eyes got better while I was doing the mailings for the Gideons. I remember saying to myself while printing labels and stuffing envelopes: "My hard contact lens must be really clean. I can see so much better".
Then, I suddenly realized I was not wearing a contact lens!

I had a surgery on my scheduled eye and it is in process of healing.

But my OTHER eye got healed just enough, so I do not need surgery.
Eyeglasses would do.
(I still put a contact in it when reading. When my other eye heals completely the doctor should switch me to reading glasses).

I said all this to say this.

Our gift of healing is prayer.
Our gift of doing miracles is prayer.

In your testimony (which I liked a lot) your faith strenghtened when you saw the bone of your missionary friend get mended.
That miracle was for her and for you and for some others,

Yet, I can also guarantee you that the person who claimed to do the healings in Mexico has HUGE amounts of legitimately ill people who come to him, yet do not get healed.
Otherwise, there would be television cameras filming everything 24/7 and he would open a healing hospital of a sort and be mentioned in Medical Journals.
(I also suspect he was taking donations during his service).

The fact that God healed my eye (that was not prayed for) just enough, so I need no surgery, is telling me the following.

1. God is in control.
2. Illnesses have a purpose.
3. We are to pray concerning each other.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[DaRev]

Nice post, Ed.

[Edial]

Nice post, Ed.:)

[Radiata]

I know very well the power of prayer. But I also know that thus far, the hundreds of people praying for Ben hasn't had a visible effect on his health. Perhaps this means that the more people know how dire his situation is, the more people will be effected if/when he gets healed. Perhaps God is waiting for me to bring Ben to Don. I don't know, but what I do know is that he is only getting worse and it's not long till he dies. Maybe Don is the answer to all of our prayers. Maybe not. But I have always said that I am tired of not being able to do anything for him, and if there is even the smallest chance that God has been waiting for me to do this, then I'm going to do it. Sorry if this is going against anyone's wishes.

[Edial]

I know very well the power of prayer. But I also know that thus far, the hundreds of people praying for Ben hasn't had a visible effect on his health. Perhaps this means that the more people know how dire his situation is, the more people will be effected if/when he gets healed. Perhaps God is waiting for me to bring Ben to Don. I don't know, but what I do know is that he is only getting worse and it's not long till he dies. Maybe Don is the answer to all of our prayers. Maybe not. But I have always said that I am tired of not being able to do anything for him, and if there is even the smallest chance that God has been waiting for me to do this, then I'm going to do it. Sorry if this is going against anyone's wishes.
Did doctors say he will die soon?

And of course you could try it. Just let us know how it went.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[Radiata]

I hoped to find Don today at church, but since I wouldn't recognize him, I would need my father to introduce me. But for some reason, my parents went to the flea market this morning instead of to early service (The one Don goes to) and we were forced to go to late service instead. That made angry. However, when we got home, dad gave him a call and left a message saying that he wanted to speak with him. He hasn't called back yet so I have to wait for the rest of the day hoping that he will call. In the meantime, today's Ben's birthday. I was going to show Ben this thread, but unfortunately it has been filled with details on gifts of healing and my own personal experience with it in Mexico rather than on Ben and his dilemma.

Prayer is more essential than ever now. Any support you can give would be great.

Thanks.

[DaRev]

I would think that instead of getting involved in all of the Charasmatic mumbo jumbo, the best thing to do is to pray that God would heal him if it is His will. And if it's not His will, that Ben be given the faith and strength to accept his affliction and be received into the glory of Christ in the Church Triumphant.

[Radiata]

But I can't know God's will. And my desire for Ben to live isn't selfishly motivated. In his short life, he has already done incredible things to advance God's kingdom. Much more than I ever could. God can use him to almost no end. I cannot understand why according to God's plan, he should die now, much less suffer a painful death that he is going through now. This is why I believe, or at least hope, that God is using me to take him to see Don. Whatever happens after that, really is God's will.

[Radiata]

But I can't know God's will. And my desire for Ben to live isn't selfishly motivated. In his short life, he has already done incredible things to advance God's kingdom. Much more than I ever could. God can use him to almost no end. I cannot understand why according to God's plan, he should die now, much less suffer a painful death that he is going through now. This is why I believe, or at least hope, that God is using me to take him to see Don. Whatever happens after that, really is God's will.

[filosofer]

You are right in saying that you don't know God's will. But God does. Despite our limited sight and knowledge, God asks us to trust him, especially when we can't get "behind the curtain" to see how it all works.

God can works miracles ... I was witness to that two weeks ago tomorrow, not by any faith-healers, but a miracle that the cardiologist team could not explain, or even believe. And they have done more than 2,000 of these operations. The head cardiologist came out scratching his head.

On the other hand, I have seen many situations in which there was not physical healing, but God brought a greater healing. My first pastoral call was the day before I was ordained. A woman had just retired at 62 and she and her husband planned to travel, see family, etc. But she was diagnosed with cancer and given 5 months to live (to die on Christmas, if the doctors were correct). But the day before Christmas she broke her back, instead of dying. She was absolutely crushed - now she didn't have the healing nor the release of death!

But God used this situation. She was the first hospice person in the region of the state, and our congregation helped form the core of that program. People came in for five months to minister to her physically, emotionally. The surprise was this shy woman became the greatest witness in the community. Every volunteer would try hard to comfort her. Instead, she spoke to them about Jesus, heaven, and the desire of God for their salvation. People went away uplifted, amazed at how God was using this "dying cripple" (as one person callously put it) to bring people the Gospel, some who were not involved in any church and wanted nothing to do with God. But there was God working his work, in the midst of suffering.

So, hang in there. God is truly amazing. He can use people who have been physically healed, and he can use those who only face a life filled with suffering.

[LutheranMafia]

I know very well the power of prayer. But I also know that thus far, the hundreds of people praying for Ben hasn't had a visible effect on his health. Perhaps this means that the more people know how dire his situation is, the more people will be effected if/when he gets healed.The power of pray comes from the heart, it does not come so readily in praying for those we don't know, and equally so it is not so easily accepted by those who do not know who is praying for them. Even with Jim, Seajoy had to threaten to bonk him over the head to make him take it easy after our prayers had, I think, made such a difference in his expedited recovery. Because we know Jim so well, and our hearts our pure, we had to make sure that Jim did not take his healing for granted, and took it easy when he wished otherwise, in order to satisfy our desire for his well being, since we are the ones who prayed so ferverantly for his well being.


Perhaps God is waiting for me to bring Ben to Don. I don't know, but what I do know is that he is only getting worse and it's not long till he dies. Maybe Don is the answer to all of our prayers. Maybe not. But I have always said that I am tired of not being able to do anything for him...
Perhaps we as a group should take this challenge on, since it is obvious that the power of our prayers as a group is effective, but we must know more about the good and nurturing characterists of Ben to really feel like we know him as you do.

You are part of our group and so what disturbs your spirit, disturbs our spirits as well and we must pay attention.

[DaRev]

The power of pray comes from the heart, it does not come so readily in praying for those we don't know, and equally so it is not so easily accepted by those who do not know who is praying for them.

The power of prayer comes solely from God. It does not come from our heart, our knowledge, our feelings, or our anything else.

[deepgreen11]

Radiata--

Thank you for the updates. I'll be praying for Ben. I hope everything works well and you get ahold of Don.

:) DG

[Radiata]

You are right in saying that you don't know God's will. But God does. Despite our limited sight and knowledge, God asks us to trust him, especially when we can't get "behind the curtain" to see how it all works.
...
...
...

So, hang in there. God is truly amazing. He can use people who have been physically healed, and he can use those who only face a life filled with suffering.

Right, which is why I still hold on to the hope that God still wants to heal him. Ben can do so much more for God's kingdom healthy then not. His latest condition is still what I have mentioned earlier on page 2. I don't know why he is suffering right now. But I do know how a suffering man can be a powerful tool in spreading the gospel message. He is running out of time and his period of suffering wont last much longer anyway. So perhaps God blessed me with a method for Ben to be cleansed from his suffering now that any more of it would not be useful. Or maybe I'm overthinking this and it's his time to go. Whatever the case, I feel that God answered my prayer by giving me this idea, and it would be foolish to not follow it up. I thank you for your support.

The power of pray comes from the heart, it does not come so readily in praying for those we don't know, and equally so it is not so easily accepted by those who do not know who is praying for them. Even with Jim, Seajoy had to threaten to bonk him over the head to make him take it easy after our prayers had, I think, made such a difference in his expedited recovery. Because we know Jim so well, and our hearts our pure, we had to make sure that Jim did not take his healing for granted, and took it easy when he wished otherwise, in order to satisfy our desire for his well being, since we are the ones who prayed so ferverantly for his well being.


Perhaps we as a group should take this challenge on, since it is obvious that the power of our prayers as a group is effective, but we must know more about the good and nurturing characterists of Ben to really feel like we know him as you do.

You are part of our group and so what disturbs your spirit, disturbs our spirits as well and we must pay attention.Thank you. Fire away and I'll answer every question that I can. Much can be found at his caringbridge journal linked on the first page. If you are on facebook, his profile is here. (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=501041304&ref=ts)

I just called Ben and gave him an update. I told him that I wasn't able to find Don at church and we did give him a call directly afterward. When we receive word from him I hope to set up a time when I can take Ben to him, and from there everything will be in God's hands. During this phone call, I told him happy birthday, and he told me that his fever has gone down so he was feeling a little uplifted. And now here I am giving you this update. It's great to know that I have friends that I can count on for prayer. I only pray that this is what God wants me to do.

[Edial]

The power of prayer comes solely from God. It does not come from our heart, our knowledge, our feelings, or our anything else.
DaRev is correct.
Prayer is just a supplication, the power is from God.

And supplication includes receiving an answer that is not agreable to our wishes.

Jesus went to the Cross despite of asking to have that Cup taken away from Him. Yet He said that may His will be done.

Yet, since I myself am just a sinful human, I do not know God's ways. Do not see them.

Whatever God allows in the life of a believer is out of love, even in the long run.
This I know.

Supplicate. This I know. (2Sam.12:18-23).

(You did not answer me though.
Did doctors tell him he will die?)

Thanks,
Ed

[LutheranMafia]

The power of prayer comes solely from God. It does not come from our heart, our knowledge, our feelings, or our anything else.God does not answer impure hearts. The power comes from God, yes, but to whom does God answer? Just anyone? Only hearts made of clay are moved by God and thus in turn can move God by their request. Prayer is a two way street, it is a relationship with God, it is not purely one directional as you portray.

[LutheranMafia]

But I can't know God's will. And my desire for Ben to live isn't selfishly motivated. In his short life, he has already done incredible things to advance God's kingdom. Much more than I ever could. God can use him to almost no end. I cannot understand why according to God's plan, he should die now, much less suffer a painful death that he is going through now. This is why I believe, or at least hope, that God is using me to take him to see Don. Whatever happens after that, really is God's will.I think DaRev is right about the Charismatics and about focusing your prayers in the proper way rather than trying to force God's hand. You can't know better than God what is best, and DaRev is right that you should pray for Ben's peace of spirit if it is not God's will that Ben be healed physically.

I don't think that the Charismatics have anything more than we do, they just flaunt it more, but we all have the power of group prayer. I mentioned the part about prayers being more potent when they truly come from the heart (i.e. God is more likely to listen and ascent) because scientific studies on the matter have only shown a correlation between healing and prayer in cases where the sick and the praying know each other. No study using anonymous prayer groups was ever able to show any meaningful effect on the sick. To the mind of geeky scientists who put so much stock in double blind studies, this invalidates all positive findings of prayer as effective, even though prayer groups that are not anonymous do show statistically significant improvement in the health of those they pray for. My gripes about what idiots scientist can be aside, I think it proves that it is better to have those that know you pray for you. It's just human nature, if it is someone you know personally then the issue is closer to your heart, which make's one's prayers more fervant.

I have much more faith in the power of group prayer than in the power of a single individual's prayers.

[deepgreen11]

If I may be so bold as to interject:

A) If all things are through Christ, and He sometimes extends His grace beyond what we can measure or predict, then we ought to at least try...and if this is an answer to prayer, which it could be, who knows but the Lord? We should really try for this.

B) I was searching the other day for studies on this matter, and I found found that actually said that prayer is bad for cancer patients that know they are being prayed for because it causes expectations and anxiety, etc., along with the one spoken of above. In other words, all types of prayer are refuted! So who are we to believe in? A Great Physician of grace and mercy, who, from what I have read, has even done near-miracles for some here? Or a league of men following carnal knowledge trying desperately to refute any involvement with God or purpose for prayer?

Continuing to pray for Ben.

[LilLamb219]

Why do we pray but in hopes that our prayers are in line with God's will.

Prayers for Ben that God's will be done.

[LutheranMafia]

B) I was searching the other day for studies on this matter, and I found found that actually said that prayer is bad for cancer patients that know they are being prayed for because it causes expectations and anxiety, etc., along with the one spoken of above.
Father Dean Marek, a Catholic priest who was involved in the research, said he wasn't surprised by the results:

"I am always a little leery about intercessory prayer," said Marek, director of chaplain services at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn. "What we have in mind for someone else may not be what they have in mind for themselves... It is clearly manipulative of divine action and personal choice."

In other words, all types of prayer are refuted!
No, that study clearly confirmed the power of prayer to bring an intercession from God, but it actually worked better when the sick did not know for certain whether or not strangers were praying for them. In other words, if strangers are praying for you, you are better off not hearing too much about it.

The protocols of that study made it impossible to test my theory any further, no one was being prayed for by anyone they knew in that study (I'm sure that many of their friends and love ones were praying for them, but that was not studied and trying to track that would actually have violated the protocols of that study).

So who are we to believe in?
I've only seen one study with definitively negative results across the board, and it never gets mentioned anymore. Presumably the protocols were demonstrated to be flawed. The people who conducted it were quite proud and obviously overtly atheistic, and biased scientists are the most likely to come up with flawed protocols. On the other side of the coin is 40 years of studies that clearly demonstrate a correlation between prayer and healing. There really is surprisingly little controversy over this in science.

Continuing to pray for Ben.I am too, but I suspect that this may be one of the more complex situations that Father Marek was talking about in the quote above. So I pray that if Ben can be healed directly that our prayers will move God to to do so, for Radiata's sake as well as Ben's, but that if this is a more complex spiritual problem, something about the direct relationship between this soul and God, such as wishing to transmute some of the worlds insanity as a small mortal measure of how Christ singled handedly transformed the world through His sacrifice, then I pray that either Ben comes to a better understanding of the calling of his spirit, or that Ben is given peace of mind to accept that path, if it is what his spirit has truly chosen.

[Radiata]

I must ask, what is your final suggestions? In the 5ive years that he has been fighting this, the hundreds of people praying for him hasn't had a visible effect. Then during a prayer for him I receive the idea to bring him to one with a spiritual gift. My dad knows one that goes to our church and I decided to bring the two of them together and see what happens. But I am told that Ben will be healed or die according to God's will and not by a man who has been trusted with His power. But remember what it says in Esther, "For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father's family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to royal position for such a time as this?" What if it is God's will and he told me that I should do this? What if I'm disobeying God by doing this? I'm scared to follow through on either choice. What would you have me do?

[LilLamb219]

How exactly does this healer heal? What is his process?

[Radiata]

The healer is not Charismatic. He's LCMS and an usher at our church. He places his hands on the person, and prays. There are times when God tells him to get his hands off of the person that he is trying to heal. All other times they come out fine. Or so I'm told.

[LutheranMafia]

LCMS? I've never heard of conservative Lutherans laying on hands.

[LutheranMafia]

So what does Ben think about this approach?

[Radiata]

So far, he's comfortable with it. I just sent him an email saying that I am still trying to get a hold of Don.

[seajoy]

What if it is God's will and he told me that I should do this? What if I'm disobeying God by doing this? I'm scared to follow through on either choice. What would you have me do?
It seems that you are depending on yourself here, a little too much. God can and will do as He sees fit. We can find in Scripture, all that God desires for for us, and for Ben. Jesus came to set us free...your friend trusts in that promise. That is all we are called to do. Believe as God gives us strength.

When I'm not sure just what it is that God wants me to do in a certain circumstance....I pray, then move forward. I know that no matter what, God is with me, even if I make a blunder. All praise to Him.

[Edial]

...

When I'm not sure just what it is that God wants me to do in a certain circumstance....I pray, then move forward. I know that no matter what, God is with me, even if I make a blunder. All praise to Him.
Excellent point!.

Thanks,
Ed

[Edial]

Radiata, this is the 3rd time I am asking you this question.
"Did doctors tell him he will die?"

Thanks,
Ed

[LilLamb219]

So what does Ben think about this approach?

I'd be interested in hearing this as well.

[Radiata]

Radiata, this is the 3rd time I am asking you this question.
"Did doctors tell him he will die?"

Thanks,
EdI don't know what the doctors say. All I know comes from Ben himself. No one likes to talk about his death so people try and cover it up the best they can. But I have brought up the topic of death with those who are close to him and they never deny it.

Great, now I can never show him this thread.

I'd be interested in hearing this as well.
I said at the top of this page that he's comfortable with it. Actually, this is the first good news he has heard in quite a long while.

And LM, I wouldn't officially call it laying on hands, because everyone does it. When praying for someone, like on mother's day, our minister of family life would pray for all the mothers out there and those close to them are asked to pur their hand on them. I've seen this in many places before.

[Edial]

I don't know what the doctors say. All I know comes from Ben himself. No one likes to talk about his death so people try and cover it up the best they can. But I have brought up the topic of death with those who are close to him and they never deny it.

Great, now I can never show him this thread.


I said at the top of this page that he's comfortable with it. Actually, this is the first good news he has heard in quite a long while.

And LM, I wouldn't officially call it laying on hands, because everyone does it. When praying for someone, like on mother's day, our minister of family life would pray for all the mothers out there and those close to them are asked to pur their hand on them. I've seen this in many places before.
Why can't you show him this thread?

Actually, I would insist you ask him to participate in it.

I dealt with dying people and people who are sick with cancer and then get better.

To know what doctors say is a very sober question.

Thanks,
Ed

[LilLamb219]

I said at the top of this page that he's comfortable with it. Actually, this is the first good news he has heard in quite a long while.


Sorry, I didn't see this page til now.

[LutheranMafia]

Actually, this is the first good news he has heard in quite a long while.It isn't good news until it has worked.

[LutheranMafia]

I must acknowledge DaRev’s and Seajoy’s contributions to this thread. While DaRev misunderstood my ambiguous and unspecific statement about the role of the heart in prayer, DaRev makes an important point that the power of healing comes from God, not prayer. The act of prayer is an uncertain and humble act, we do not know for certain if God will acquiesce to our prayers and hopes, even if they are worthy. And Seajoy is correct that you are trying too hard in some respects, which is almost a lack of faith that the Will of God will be done. I think that first and foremost you should relax and take comfort in knowing that the Will of God will always be done. That is not an excuse for being lazy, but the reverse is not an excuse for feeling frantic either. Just do the best you can with confidence that the Will of God will be done, inevitably, and don’t try to push anyone into anything unless they are really open to it.

[LutheranMafia]

I must acknowledge DaRev’s and Seajoy’s contributions to this thread. While DaRev misunderstood my ambiguous and unspecific statement about the role of the heart in prayer, DaRev makes an important point that the power of healing comes from God, not prayer. The act of prayer is an uncertain and humble act, we do not know for certain if God will acquiesce to our prayers and hopes, even if they are worthy. And Seajoy is correct that you are trying too hard in some respects, which is almost a lack of faith that the Will of God will be done. I think that first and foremost you should relax and take comfort in knowing that the Will of God will always be done. That is not an excuse for being lazy, but it is a good reason for not feeling frantic either. Just do the best you can with confidence that the Will of God will be done, inevitably, and don’t try to push anyone into anything unless they are really open to it.

[seajoy]

I must acknowledge DaRev’s and Seajoy’s contributions to this thread. While DaRev misunderstood my ambiguous and unspecific statement about the role of the heart in prayer, DaRev makes an important point that the power of healing comes from God, not prayer. The act of prayer is an uncertain and humble act, we do not know for certain if God will acquiesce to our prayers and hopes, even if they are worthy. And Seajoy is correct that you are trying too hard in some respects, which is almost a lack of faith that the Will of God will be done. I think that first and foremost you should relax and take comfort in knowing that the Will of God will always be done. That is not an excuse for being lazy, but the reverse is not an excuse for feeling frantic either. Just do the best you can with confidence that the Will of God will be done, inevitably, and don’t try to push anyone into anything unless they are really open to it.
Thanks, LM. :)

[Radiata]

I said before that Sunday was Ben's birthday. I asked him if I could get him anything and he suggested a small NIV. Yesterday after class I went searching for one and you know what? Those are impossible to find. The only small ones I found were those TNIV that I never heard of before. That and New Testament only ones.

Thanks for your words and prayers everyone. I still don't know what I should do and there isn't anyone that can actually give an answer. This is a case that I wish that I could know what God wants me to do because in my enture life, I have never known what God has ever wanted me to do except for what is revealed in His Word. I know that God works through people, and maybe God wants to use me to work in Ben by bringing him to Don. I don't know if it is God's will that Ben be healed. And I certainly don't know if I should do this or not. But God has not told me in a way that I can understand that I shouldn't so I must go on until He tells me not to.

I'll ask Ben to get involved in this thread.

[LilLamb219]

We'd love to meet Ben :)

[Edial]

I must acknowledge DaRev’s and Seajoy’s contributions to this thread. While DaRev misunderstood my ambiguous and unspecific statement about the role of the heart in prayer, DaRev makes an important point that the power of healing comes from God, not prayer. The act of prayer is an uncertain and humble act, we do not know for certain if God will acquiesce to our prayers and hopes, even if they are worthy. And Seajoy is correct that you are trying too hard in some respects, which is almost a lack of faith that the Will of God will be done. I think that first and foremost you should relax and take comfort in knowing that the Will of God will always be done. That is not an excuse for being lazy, but the reverse is not an excuse for feeling frantic either. Just do the best you can with confidence that the Will of God will be done, inevitably, and don’t try to push anyone into anything unless they are really open to it.
Did I hear correctly that LutheranMafia agreed with DaRev and seajoy?
:groupray: ... :liturgy: ... :)

[Edial]

...

I'll ask Ben to get involved in this thread.
Cool. :)

[seajoy]

Did I hear correctly that LutheranMafia agreed with DaRev and seajoy?
:groupray: ... :liturgy: ... :)
It's hot here and I've been sitting in the sun.....am I delirious? :)

[seajoy]

Cool. :)
Yes, that would be cool. I'm sure Ben could teach us a lot, and hopefully we would give him some words of encouragement in our Lord Jesus Christ.

[ben7]

For all of you who have been praying for me, thanks a ton. God has been working in my life, though not healing me the way l wish he would yet. Today l have an appointment with another Dr to talk about future treatment, you can definitely pray about that.
l trust in God's unfailing love that is mentioned so often in the Psalms, and Christ's ability to take my anxiety on himself because He cares for me, 1 Pet 5:7.
l trust in God's will for my life and just ask Him that He'd make it a little longer. A friend of mine is praying for 50 years, that would be a miracle. Still, we believe in a God of miracles, and He is able to do it. Yet not my will, but His will be done.
Thanks to all of you again for your prayers, Ben

[seajoy]

For all of you who have been praying for me, thanks a ton. God has been working in my life, though not healing me the way l wish he would yet. Today l have an appointment with another Dr to talk about future treatment, you can definitely pray about that.
l trust in God's unfailing love that is mentioned so often in the Psalms, and Christ's ability to take my anxiety on himself because He cares for me, 1 Pet 5:7.
l trust in God's will for my life and just ask Him that He'd make it a little longer. A friend of mine is praying for 50 years, that would be a miracle. Still, we believe in a God of miracles, and He is able to do it. Yet not my will, but His will be done.
Thanks to all of you again for your prayers, Ben
What a privilage to have you here, Ben. :) And your words are a testament to the faith God has given you. Please come back and visit. You are very welcome here.

:prayer: for you as you go to see the doctor.

[Radiata]

For all of you who have been praying for me, thanks a ton. God has been working in my life, though not healing me the way l wish he would yet. Today l have an appointment with another Dr to talk about future treatment, you can definitely pray about that.
l trust in God's unfailing love that is mentioned so often in the Psalms, and Christ's ability to take my anxiety on himself because He cares for me, 1 Pet 5:7.
l trust in God's will for my life and just ask Him that He'd make it a little longer. A friend of mine is praying for 50 years, that would be a miracle. Still, we believe in a God of miracles, and He is able to do it. Yet not my will, but His will be done.
Thanks to all of you again for your prayers, Ben
BEN!!! It's so good to hear from you. Thank you so much for dropping in to give us an update. I hope you will consider comming back occasionally to provide us with more info and words of wisdom. And hopfully you can provide us with an update with what happens with your Doctor today. I'm definately still praying. And God be with you.

See you tonight.

[LilLamb219]

Hi Ben!!!!

Glad you could pop in on here :) Please, don't be a stranger! We'd love to get to know you!

Of course there will be continued prayers for you!

[Edial]

For all of you who have been praying for me, thanks a ton. God has been working in my life, though not healing me the way l wish he would yet. Today l have an appointment with another Dr to talk about future treatment, you can definitely pray about that.
l trust in God's unfailing love that is mentioned so often in the Psalms, and Christ's ability to take my anxiety on himself because He cares for me, 1 Pet 5:7.
l trust in God's will for my life and just ask Him that He'd make it a little longer. A friend of mine is praying for 50 years, that would be a miracle. Still, we believe in a God of miracles, and He is able to do it. Yet not my will, but His will be done.
Thanks to all of you again for your prayers, Ben
Really good to see you, Ben.
Welcome to TCL. :)

Ed

[LutheranMafia]

http://www.christian-web-masters.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/welcome.gif
Good to meet you, Ben!

I pray that this new doctor can find a promising treatment for you and that you and many of us also live another 50 years.

Radiata gave a caringbridge website where you keep a journal, but I can't access it at work because we have a very aggressive site-blocker here. What condition is it that you are suffering from and what prognosis have the doctors given you?

1 Peter 5 is a very beautiful passage. I've seen references to being clothed in Christ (Romans 13:14 and Galatians 3:27) but I don't remember ever hearing a reference to clothing one's self in humility as an alternate image of this (1 Peter 5:5).

[Radiata]

Ben updated caringbridge last night.

A lot has happened since my last update. l had the Gamma Knife procedure for the probable tumors in my brain, and that procedure went well. Since then, l've been feeling sick for most the past 2 and a half weeks, feverish and tired. l'm still having fevers over 102 regularly, so please pray about that. Also my mouth has really dried out since the weekend, l think it's a chemo reaction, and it's kind of unpleasant.

Today l saw a new Dr, Dr Heath. She went over my information and is going to start me on a trial in 4 weeks. During that time l don't get any chemo. This makes me nervous for a few reasons: 1- the tumors can grow, 2- l think sometimes the chemo makes me healthier. lt seems like l get fevers and sick when l'm coming off chemo, and l feel ok when l'm on it.

Either way, God is in control and we'll take these 4 weeks one day at a time, just like the past 5 months l've been on chemo. So please pray that the weeks l'm off chemo go well, that God keeps the tumors from growing, and that the trial is effective.

'...in God I trust; I will not be afraid...' Psalm 56:4

[deepgreen11]

Two scriptures have been continually coming to mind.

Romans 8:26-27
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.

Encouragement to keep standing against everything:
Ephesians 6:13
13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

I'm continuing to pray for you, Ben, and hope to see you soon.
:pray:

[Radiata]

It's finally happened. I met Don an hour ago at church. He is such a nice man. Kind of elderly, and not at all shy nor wearing out. In a little while I'm going to call Ben and set up a time for the two of them to meet which will probably be this week. After that, it's all up to God.

He had an interesting way of going about his healing. He had me read Isaiah 53 and interpreted it to mean that God has already healed everyone. "He took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered Him stricken by God." By this means, God has healed us. Interesting how one can come up with this idea that we can be healed by the sacrifice of Jesus, rather than saying that this healing comes directly from God. Ok, I think you get the idea. It will all be done soon. Ben, everyone is still praying for you.

[Radiata]

We are all set. Tomorrow at 7:30, myself, Ben, and his friend will be going to see Don. I'm very nervous. We originally scheduled for Wednesday, but Don called me back saying that "Oh right. That's my wedding aniversery." Any prayers would be great. Thanks.

[Radiata]

We went to see Don last night. The three of us arrived at his house and Don said that he reserved a room in our church so we went there to avoid distractions. The whole thing took about 2½ hours, with much of the time spent talking about all the people he was able to cure around the world, or even the process that he was given these gifts.

He had an interesting way about doing things. He looked at Isaiah that looked forward to the cross and said that Christ took up our infirmities. Then opened to second Peter that looked back on the cross and through it our wounds were healed. Don told us that our bodies were created in God's own image, and we are not made for cancer, AIDs, chicken pox or any other sickness. All of these unnatural things are illegal. But we already know that Jesus already healed our wounds. Just like He already paid for our sins. The process is the same. We must have faith that Jesus has already healed us. It's quite an interesting concept, so over the next several weeks Ben is going to er... have faith that his body has already been healed.

So much happened last night that I would never be able to bring all of it up at once. But if anyone has any questions to narrow down events, I can answer them.

[deepgreen11]

:pray: still praying for Ben and the whole situation.

In peace, DG

[DaRev]

The "infirmaties" that were healed upon the cross are the spiritual infirmities that is sin. Physical illnesses and afflictions are the consequences of the sinful human nature. If the crucifixion of Christ has healed all physical infirmities, then why do humans still die, even those who have saving faith in Christ?

I find your friends interpretation interesting, although not exactly accurate. It makes it sound like illness is the result of the lack of faith, which is certainly untrue.

The part of this whole thing that I find quite disturbing is the real possibility that Ben will not be "healed" by this friend of yours. What kind of effect will that have on Ben's faith? On your faith?

My prayer is and always will be that your friend Ben be given strength by God through His Holy Spirit to accept his situation and whatever the outcome may be, that if it be the Lord's will to cure him to do so soon, and that if it be His will not to do so that Ben can with God's grace and mercy accept the circumstances and faithfully await his meeting the Lord in heaven.

[seajoy]

Thanks, Rev. I thought the same things as you after reading Radiata's post.

I once had someone tell me that I was lacking in faith when I had my troubles with severe depression. It sent me into a tailspin, as I tried to "conjure up" more faith.

The only healing there is, is in what Christ has done for us. Ben is dearly loved by our Lord. What a precious gift he has in the faith God has given him.

[filosofer]

Wise counsel, DaRev.

On the other hand, notice how Matthew refers to that Isaiah text:

Matthew 8:16-17 ESV
That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.

[Till]

He had an interesting way about doing things. He looked at Isaiah that looked forward to the cross and said that Christ took up our infirmities. Then opened to second Peter that looked back on the cross and through it our wounds were healed. Don told us that our bodies were created in God's own image, and we are not made for cancer, AIDs, chicken pox or any other sickness. All of these unnatural things are illegal. But we already know that Jesus already healed our wounds. Just like He already paid for our sins. The process is the same. We must have faith that Jesus has already healed us. It's quite an interesting concept, so over the next several weeks Ben is going to er... have faith that his body has already been healed.



It is actually common teaching and practice in the Word of Faith movement. Or I should rather say it was, reality has proven otherwise and more and more WoF churches drop it. It can be very destructive for people who do not get healed.

[Radiata]

The "infirmaties" that were healed upon the cross are the spiritual infirmities that is sin. Physical illnesses and afflictions are the consequences of the sinful human nature. If the crucifixion of Christ has healed all physical infirmities, then why do humans still die, even those who have saving faith in Christ?

I find your friends interpretation interesting, although not exactly accurate. It makes it sound like illness is the result of the lack of faith, which is certainly untrue.

The part of this whole thing that I find quite disturbing is the real possibility that Ben will not be "healed" by this friend of yours. What kind of effect will that have on Ben's faith? On your faith?

My prayer is and always will be that your friend Ben be given strength by God through His Holy Spirit to accept his situation and whatever the outcome may be, that if it be the Lord's will to cure him to do so soon, and that if it be His will not to do so that Ben can with God's grace and mercy accept the circumstances and faithfully await his meeting the Lord in heaven.
Right. All throughout this session, I had my doubts. But I have to give Don the benefit of the doubt due to all of the people he (through Christ Jesus) has healed. Also during this, we received an anointing through Don. Myself and Ben received it asking that we be able to better discern God's words to us. Don expressed it as God's voice being made louder for us. I'm thinking about making a thread about how we can know (apart form God's Word) what God wants for us. For example, I never knew whether or not to bring Ben to Don. I received no understandable sign to understand God's will in this. But that's for another thread if I should ever make it.

Through this anointing, my request was that I be used to benefit the kingdom of God. Don also said, that if it is God's will, we would also receive spiritual gifts. In time we may come to realize that we already have them, but it just wasn't time for them to manifest. Like when Don first started praying in tongues, he drove around for hours just praying and he was so excited. But he wasn't able to do it until weeks after his anointing.

Only time will tell what God has planed for us.

Wise counsel, DaRev.

On the other hand, notice how Matthew refers to that Isaiah text:

Matthew 8:16-17 ESV
That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.


That's it. Don showed this passage to us as well.... I think. What's sad was that Ben was kind of fading in and out last night. You can't blame him, I'm sure he was tired. We only left because the church was closing. I will ask that everyone keep praying for him over these coming weeks till his next tests.

[DaRev]

Right. All throughout this session, I had my doubts. But I have to give Don the benefit of the doubt due to all of the people he (through Christ Jesus) has healed. Also during this, we received an anointing through Don. Myself and Ben received it asking that we be able to better discern God's words to us. Don expressed it as God's voice being made louder for us. I'm thinking about making a thread about how we can know (apart form God's Word) what God wants for us. For example, I never knew whether or not to bring Ben to Don. I received no understandable sign to understand God's will in this. But that's for another thread if I should ever make it.

God has revealed to us all that He wishes us to know through His inspired word. Any "revelation" outside of that is suspect and most likely not of God at all. I would be VERY leary of what this man says to you. It sounds to me that he is speaking outside of what God has clearly revealed to us.

Through this anointing, my request was that I be used to benefit the kingdom of God. Don also said, that if it is God's will, we would also receive spiritual gifts. In time we may come to realize that we already have them, but it just wasn't time for them to manifest. Like when Don first started praying in tongues, he drove around for hours just praying and he was so excited. But he wasn't able to do it until weeks after his anointing.

Are you sure it's a Lutheran Church you attend? This sounds a lot like the mumbo jumbo that comes out of the Pentecostal camps. A lot of people are greatly mislead from that type of teaching. I would strongly suggest you find a good confessional Lutheran pastor to spend some time with in discussing these things at length.

[Radiata]

He's not really Lutheran. He just agrees with the big parts about the real presence and the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. But what's very interesting is that our pastor (one of them at least) has given him permission to give communion to those who weren't able to go to service on a particular Sunday. I questioned him about this saying that it is against the confessions for anyone but a called and ordained minister to give the sacrament. He responded that no where in the bible does it say that. I dropped the issue at that.

I know that this guy does not practice Lutheranism very closely at all. And in my mind I questioned many of the things he said. But for the good of Ben, I followed it and that's what happened.

You know rev, you really sound like you don't believe in spiritual gifts at all outside of prayer. That is to say, that everyone has every spiritual gift and can only be used with God's will through prayer. Speaking in tongues is not something you can obtain through prayer. Neither is prophesy. Yet people DO have these gifts. You, being someone who follows the bible so closely, should understand that spiritual gifts are given to people of future generations. Paul in Romans describing these spiritual gifts is not describing spiritual gifts at all, but rather gifts in general. Like teaching, serving, encouraging. The only questionable one would be prophesy which my cheater bible describes in this passage: Prophesying in Scripture is not always predicting the future. Often it means preaching God's messages.

However, in 1Corinthians 12, we see actual spiritual gifts. One's given by the Holy Spirit to unify the church. These are not ordinary everyday gifts like mentioned in Romans because as we can see in the passage that these gifts were actually splitting the church because these gifts had become the symbols of spiritual power, causing rivalries because some people thought they were more 'spiritual' than others because of their gifts.

And in Ephesians, we see gifts much like described in Romans.

So when it comes to spiritual gifts, given to people of all denominations, I don't understand why you are so opposed to the use of them. Perhaps God was waiting for me to bring Ben to Don so that God's glory could be revealed to everyone by a miraculous healing in him. Perhaps not. But the gift of healing is very real and your lack of faith in it is bothering me. Not the fact that you find the methods unscriptural, but that you don't see it's benefits.

[DaRev]

He's not really Lutheran. He just agrees with the big parts about the real presence and the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. But what's very interesting is that our pastor (one of them at least) has given him permission to give communion to those who weren't able to go to service on a particular Sunday. I questioned him about this saying that it is against the confessions for anyone but a called and ordained minister to give the sacrament. He responded that no where in the bible does it say that. I dropped the issue at that.

Does that pastor agree with the Lutheran Confessions? Does he hold a quia subscription that LCMS pastors take a vow to hold at their ordination?

I know that this guy does not practice Lutheranism very closely at all. And in my mind I questioned many of the things he said. But for the good of Ben, I followed it and that's what happened.

You know rev, you really sound like you don't believe in spiritual gifts at all outside of prayer. That is to say, that everyone has every spiritual gift and can only be used with God's will through prayer. Speaking in tongues is not something you can obtain through prayer. Neither is prophesy. Yet people DO have these gifts. You, being someone who follows the bible so closely, should understand that spiritual gifts are given to people of future generations. Paul in Romans describing these spiritual gifts is not describing spiritual gifts at all, but rather gifts in general. Like teaching, serving, encouraging. The only questionable one would be prophesy which my cheater bible describes in this passage: Prophesying in Scripture is not always predicting the future. Often it means preaching God's messages.

However, in 1Corinthians 12, we see actual spiritual gifts. One's given by the Holy Spirit to unify the church. These are not ordinary everyday gifts like mentioned in Romans because as we can see in the passage that these gifts were actually splitting the church because these gifts had become the symbols of spiritual power, causing rivalries because some people thought they were more 'spiritual' than others because of their gifts.

And in Ephesians, we see gifts much like described in Romans.

So when it comes to spiritual gifts, given to people of all denominations, I don't understand why you are so opposed to the use of them. Perhaps God was waiting for me to bring Ben to Don so that God's glory could be revealed to everyone by a miraculous healing in him. Perhaps not. But the gift of healing is very real and your lack of faith in it is bothering me. Not the fact that you find the methods unscriptural, but that you don't see it's benefits.

The Spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12 were given to build up the Church, not unify. The gift of tongues, for example, was given so that one could witness the Gospel to people of different languages (as on the Day of Pentecost). Since the Gospel is now spread in practically every language in the world, there is little need for that gift. What language(s) does your friend Don speak? To whom is he witnessing in these languages? What benefit to the spreading of the Gospel is there while he is "praying in tongues" while driving his car around? These are the questions you should be asking yourself.

As to the gift of healing, I don't deny that it may exist. I have yet to see any documented evidence that it exists today either. Practically every so-called "faith healer" that I've heard of were charlatans. Many, many people have been deceived by such claims to the point of severely damaging their faith.

[Radiata]

And it finally all makes sense now. Up until this moment, I was never clear on how Don was claiming the healing process. Don't we remember all the times Jesus says to the people, "Your faith has healed you."? It's quite simple this way. Now, we know that God's will will have to be done. So if it is God's will that someone be healed, why can't God heal him through a person? And this person's faith is the driving force that one eventually does get healed.

I don't want to alert the wrong minister, so when I speak to Don again I'll find out who gave him authority to administer the sacraments and pop up the conversation as to whether or not they are following the confessions in this regard.

[Till]

The Spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12 were given to build up the Church, not unify. The gift of tongues, for example, was given so that one could witness the Gospel to people of different languages (as on the Day of Pentecost). Since the Gospel is now spread in practically every language in the world, there is little need for that gift. What language(s) does your friend Don speak? To whom is he witnessing in these languages? What benefit to the spreading of the Gospel is there while he is "praying in tongues" while driving his car around? These are the questions you should be asking yourself.



I hope you do not mind me interrupting the flow of dicussion but are you sure this is the only purpose Scriptures assign to the gift of tongues. What about


1Co 14:4 The one speaking in a tongue builds himself up,

[Edial]

I hope you do not mind me interrupting the flow of dicussion but are you sure this is the only purpose Scriptures assign to the gift of tongues. What about
1Co 14:4 The one speaking in a tongue builds himself up,

Ha! I forgot that one.

Very interesting. :)

Ed

[DaRev]

I hope you do not mind me interrupting the flow of dicussion but are you sure this is the only purpose Scriptures assign to the gift of tongues. What about 1 Corinthians 14:4

"The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself."

What about it? It supports what I was saying before about the gift of tongues being used to build up the Church. That is what God gave that gift for. If one babbles incoherently, who is benefitting? God doesn't give us the gifts to glorify ourselves, but to glorify Him, and that is done by spreading the word and building up the Church, not by misusing the gift and bringing glory to ourselves.

[Till]

"The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself."

What about it? It supports what I was saying before about the gift of tongues being used to build up the Church. That is what God gave that gift for. If one babbles incoherently, who is benefitting? God doesn't give us the gifts to glorify ourselves, but to glorify Him, and that is done by spreading the word and building up the Church, not by misusing the gift and bringing glory to ourselves.

It seem to me that in 1. Cor 14 Paul is speaking about a second, private use of the gift of tongues: Edifying, building up the individual believer. That has nothing to do with "bringing glory to ourselves" as it is done in private. Not before the eyes and ears of others.



What benefit to the spreading of the Gospel is there while he is "praying in tongues" while driving his car around? These are the questions you should be asking yourself.


None, directly. But in the same way as he might pray in English while driving his car, he might also do so in tongues.



1Co 14:1 Follow after love; yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men edification, and exhortation, and consolation.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.


The question of course is whether this gift of tongues that Don - or more generally the charismatics - has/have, is the gift the new testament speaks about. As there is no way to verify this, why bother. Their private! speaking in tongues does no harm to anyone.

[DaRev]

It seem to me that in 1. Cor 14 Paul is speaking about a second, private use of the gift of tongues: Edifying, building up the individual believer. That has nothing to do with "bringing glory to ourselves" as it is done in private. Not before the eyes and ears of others.

What Paul seems to be saying in that passage is that unless the gift is used to build up the Church, as it was given to do, it is useless.

speaking in tongues does no harm to anyone.

It does if one claims it in order to impress or to make one look more "gifted" than someone else.

[Radiata]

It does if one claims it in order to impress or to make one look more "gifted" than someone else.
In which case, I don't think God would have given that gift to said person.

[LutheranMafia]

The devil can do mighty deeds too. I couldn't find that verse, so I'm obviously changing the wording somewhat, but I did find this verse: "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles..." -Rev 16:14

Back to 1 Cor 14, verse 6 says, "Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?" It goes on to compare speaking in tongues as senseless babbling with broken instruments that make no sound. Verse 9 continues with, "You will just be speaking into the air."

Virtually everyone in North America speaks either English or Spanish, so the odds of speaking in tongues being useful around these parts is extremely slim.

[Edial]

Concerning tongues.

One's common sense should yell out that what we hear today as tongues is a babble. (At least what I heard is a babble).

Before my father passed away some 4 years ago he heard a neighbor speaking in "tongues".
He was amazed, because he heard similar sounds back in Bulgaria some 60 (?) years ago when someone there spoke in "tongues" !

I asked him: "What did you hear?"
He pronounced some "words" while being visibly embarassed while doing that.

These were one syllable words. One syllable words are what babies babble.
Babble is universal.

And the ones that claim to "interpret" them, I would suggest are either deluding themselves, or lie.

Apostle Paul told Corinthians to stop speaking in "tongues" and even made a concession that they have 2 or 3 to speak and then sit down.
He further explained that what they say is not from Holy Spirit, but from their own spirits. Apostle Paul certainly would not tell Holy Spirit to "sit down".

1CO 14:26 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
1CO 14:29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

Fake tongues and babble go 2000 years back. According to Paul they are an embarrasment when uttered in public, because guests who come in the chirch would think they are out of their minds.

1CO 14:22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understandor some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

Apostle Paul used strong words against that phenomenon.

Paul spoke in real tongues (different languages - glossalia), yet Paul abstained from speaking even the true tongues in church.

1CO 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

As a member of the universal church I am embarassed by this phenomenon that is going on.

Thanks,
Ed

[DaRev]

In which case, I don't think God would have given that gift to said person.

Bingo! Which means that one who claims to have the gift while riding around in a car most likely does not possess a gift of God.

Please don't take this the wrong way, Rad. I'm just afraid that you are setting yourself up for a grave disappointment.
If your friend experiences a recovery from his illness, give thanks and praise to God alone, for God alone is responsible. If he does not, then give thanks and praise to God for the time you have/had with him and the positive influence you and others have received from his great faith.

[LilLamb219]

How is Ben doing?

[Radiata]

On Thursday after large group bible study, (My class ended early enough that I was able to go to the whole thing! Praise God!) Ben was not there but Lois (InterVarsity leader and extremely close friend of Ben) told me what was going on. Wednesday, 2 days after meeting with Don, he wasn't doing so well. He had a fever and was kind of feeling pretty sick. But the next day, Thursday, Lois said that he was doing much better. Lois and I talked for quite a while about what they were thinking about the whole healing process and that all throughout the Gospel, people came to Jesus with faith that Jesus could heal them. And Jesus said every time, "Your faith has healed you." As of Thursday, things are going well, but that is the most uptodate info I have right now. You know what? I'm going to email him right now and ask how things are going for him.

[Radiata]

I just got back from the reunion to find this. Ben updated his caringbridge journal.


I'm back in the hospital, praying that I get out soon. I came in on Friday to have a Dr look at my liver because of pain and swelling, since then I've been here getting the liver fluid drained and tomorrow we determine what to to do about the lung fluid.
So please pray with me for my pain and swelling, as well as the future in terms of what I do in terms of chemotherapy with the new Hospital or old one. Thanks!
"..in God I trust; I will not be afraid.." Ps 56:4

[LilLamb219]

Continuing prayers for Ben!

[deepgreen11]

:pray: praying!

[LutheranMafia]

:prayer:

[Radiata]

I visited Ben in the hospital yesterday. He doesn't seem very well off right now. If it's even possible to imagine, he's even thinner than he was the last time I saw him. It was an extremely sad sight to see. And what makes matters worse, is that he was kind of out of it. He kept staring at the television and the olympic divers, but he wasn't entirely sure what was going on. We (Lois, Ben, and myself) talked about St. Louis, about his treatments, his lack of treatments, a new chemo treatment that he will be taking today. Everything was so sad in the room. But at the end of my stay, shortly after 10pm, we prayed together. My prayer was first praise, that wisdom be given to the doctors, and that God's will be done. Ben's prayer was for healing, that he is still holding on to the faith that by Christ's wounds, he has been healed. And Lois' prayer was for thanksgiving that Ben's pain has gone down since the day before, and that they would be able to see the doctor today. And also that peace would be brought upon him.

I'm still living in the hope that God will provide a healing in his life. But things are not looking good at all. I saw on the dry erase board under the television: "Those who wait on the Lord will renew their strength."

God be with him.

[Zecryphon]

I will continue to pray for Ben and his healing. :prayer:

[LutheranMafia]

I visited Ben in the hospital yesterday. He doesn't seem very well off right now. If it's even possible to imagine, he's even thinner than he was the last time I saw him. It was an extremely sad sight to see. And what makes matters worse, is that he was kind of out of it. He kept staring at the television and the olympic divers, but he wasn't entirely sure what was going on. We (Lois, Ben, and myself) talked about St. Louis, about his treatments, his lack of treatments, a new chemo treatment that he will be taking today. Everything was so sad in the room. But at the end of my stay, shortly after 10pm, we prayed together. My prayer was first praise, that wisdom be given to the doctors, and that God's will be done. Ben's prayer was for healing, that he is still holding on to the faith that by Christ's wounds, he has been healed. And Lois' prayer was for thanksgiving that Ben's pain has gone down since the day before, and that they would be able to see the doctor today. And also that peace would be brought upon him.

I'm still living in the hope that God will provide a healing in his life. But things are not looking good at all. I saw on the dry erase board under the television: "Those who wait on the Lord will renew their strength."

God be with him.
Alright, this does it for me. I’ve only interacted with Ben once, but through Radiata I feel I know Ben now. I pray with all my heart and soul that Ben receives all spiritual understandings that his spirit needs to understand why he should continue to live, and not sacrifice himself for the supposed benefit of all. This is the most admirable reason to want to sacrifice one’s self, but this is not the case for Ben. Oh Lord, Ben can serve humanity better by remaining alive. Whatever he needs to know deep down inside to become aware of the truth of this, I know pray to you, oh Lord, that Ben be granted these spiritual insights. These kinds of decisions to die are not wrought within the conscious mind, they are agreed to in the spirit, but our spirits are lost. I ask now, oh Lord, that Ben’s spirit be made aware of all that can come to pass if his presence remains on Earth and does not ascend to Heaven before his time is truly finished. In the name of the Holy Father, the Holy Son and the Holy Spirit, I ask that this be made so.

[deepgreen11]

Thank you for the update, Rad. I'll be praying.

DG

[LutheranMafia]

The Holy Spirit “proceeds” from the Son as well as the Holy Father, and being his brothers and sisters, we may all call upon the Holy Spirit in a similar, even if profoundly mitigated, fashion. Our relative status, being merely younger brothers and sisters of Christ, gives us precedent. This is why prayer works, even when we ask for a snake. However, I do not believe I am asking for a snake now!!!

[Radiata]

I went to see Ben yesterday. He's doing even worse. But today they are moving him home to live out the rest of his life. I wasn't even able to see him. But Lois can and I think that's unfair. All I could do is write a note to him to be brought in by someone else. It looks more and more like God will not heal him, even though I know He can. I don't understand God's will. I don't know the reason that God wants him to die now. But I really don't know why he has to suffer. Such a long fight, and with no rewards. (I don't know what might have been different if Ben lives, or how God would have worked differently through him.) Right now I feel guilty being healthy while he is like this. I just wish there was something I could do.

[WildStrawberry]

Such a long fight, and with no rewards

Oh sweetie...his reward is coming. It sucks that it's not going to be in this life and that we don't understand why God will heal one but not the other, but there IS a reward for him. He will never again be in pain, he'll be forever happy, healthy.

Remember Jesus' words...Blessed are those that mourn for they shall be comforted.

Rest easy in knowing that you WILL see this good man again in glory.

Kae

[LilLamb219]

I'm sorry Ben has to endure this :( When God calls Him home, the angels will rejoice because a sheep will be closer to the Lord.

Ben definitely knows how much you care for him and how you've encouraged others to pray for him. You both are strong lights.

[deepgreen11]

I also tried to see Ben yesterday. It would be a good idea to not only pray for him, but also those around him, as spirits need strength and comfort. I am sure, however, that they have already been prayed for and still are being prayed for.

My prayers for the entire situation will continue.

[Edial]

I also tried to see Ben yesterday. It would be a good idea to not only pray for him, but also those around him, as spirits need strength and comfort. I am sure, however, that they have already been prayed for and still are being prayed for.

My prayers for the entire situation will continue.
I did not realize you know Ben.

[Edial]

I went to see Ben yesterday. He's doing even worse. But today they are moving him home to live out the rest of his life. I wasn't even able to see him. But Lois can and I think that's unfair. All I could do is write a note to him to be brought in by someone else. It looks more and more like God will not heal him, even though I know He can. I don't understand God's will. I don't know the reason that God wants him to die now. But I really don't know why he has to suffer. Such a long fight, and with no rewards. (I don't know what might have been different if Ben lives, or how God would have worked differently through him.) Right now I feel guilty being healthy while he is like this. I just wish there was something I could do.
We are also having a neighbor being brought home tomorrow apparently to live out the rest of his life home. He is in his 70s and just confessed Christ in the hospital about a month ago.

When there is a matter of life and death I look to God.

And when there is suffering in a life of a Christian, I know that no suffering is without rewards.

This is much bigger than my understanding, yet I do know something that is even beiiger than all this.

I know that God is love. This is important.

In the end, all will be OK for all of us.

Thanks,
Ed

[porterross]

John 9:1-5

Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

His ways are not our ways and if we truly trust in Him with all our hearts and minds then we have to accept what comes our way in this life and know that it if it brings Him glory, then so be it. There is no reward in this life apart from knowing we are loved and saved no matter how undeserving we are and the very thought of eternal paradise with Jesus makes it bearable.

Unfortunately for you, it's probably more difficult for you to watch Ben go through this than it is for him as he is likely focused on what's to come once it's all over. Hopefully, God has given Ben the peace of accepting this as His will and will minimize his suffering. :pray:

[Radiata]

A friend of mine is putting together stories from people who Ben has reached out to during the years and going to give then to him. I thought that in order to help you know him better, I've decided to share with you what I wrote.





The compassion and wisdom that everyone seeks in a man is a most elusive thing found in only a few select people. To find generosity, humility, faith, and leadership within the same person is almost an impossibility. Undoubtedly Ben inhibits all these qualities and more, as displayed in everything he does. People always come to him for help, and always felt comfortable talking about whatever they needed to. I remember coming to him before during my first semester at Oakland. We had first met during our bible study and he proved himself over and over again to be a man of extraordinary knowledge. Over and over again he showed us truth and wisdom greater than anything we ever encountered. He led us to a higher understanding and showed us what we needed. In biblical knowledge he is always on top. But what makes him great is how he uses it. When I came to him with my problems seeking answers, he was not only more understanding than anyone I know, he also gave knowledge to me that were not carbon copied responses given to anyone. He really cared about me and gave me exactly what I needed to hear. And not only that, it was a week later that he invited me over to Caribou Coffee and decided to check up on me. We talked for an hour and repeatedly I was amazed at his wisdom. His greatest urge to me was that I keep reading my bible. And he encouraged me to do so every time we would meet.

Again, he called me and asked for a meeting. He invited me to his house and treated me to dinner. There wasn't a particular reason he wanted to speak with me other than just finding out how my walk was going. In this meeting he actually got me to start tithing. The nerve of some people! But this just proves how God can work amazing things through Ben. He got me, the lover of money, to tithe. I know it was only the Holy Spirit working through him that was able to persuade me to do such a thing.

It is extremely strange, but after only two years, Ben Paney has become the most important thing in my life. Him and the Holy Spirit working through him are the driving force of everything I do now. Because of him, I was able to rid myself of all illegally downloaded music, stop cheating on my homework, and stop studying so much theology and get into the bible. As he said, "Every great theologian in history would never tell you to read their books instead of the bible." The amount that Ben has influenced my life cannot be told in one small report. Those which would chose to know him must not only see him, but also those countless people who he has helped along the way in order to see the true effect that He has had on this life. Here's to you Ben. May the Lord watch over you and remain faithful to His promise. And rest easy knowing that every day you remain in the hands of the faithful Lord and savior, the Lord of all creation. That He will never leave nor forsake you. Those who wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you. Amen.

[Radiata]

Ben went home to Heaven this morning after a long and valiant fight against melanoma. In the past two weeks, Ben's system deteriorated rapidly, but his spirit remained strong. Ben's family, his girlfriend Lois and dear friends surrounded him as he quietly breathed his last.

Although Ben had melanoma for over 5 years, he was determined to live life to the full. His commitment to Jesus Christ led him to seek ways to serve other people. He got involved as a support person with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship at Oakland Community College. He helped with student outreaches and looked for ways to develop relationships to help young men grow in their faith. He moved to Auburn Hills so he could be close enough for students to visit.

Ben worked as an electrical engineer for GM in Warren and particularly liked his last assignment. Many of his co-workers have visited the hospital over the past few weeks. Ben did his best to continue working even as his illness made things more difficult.

He was active in Christ Community Church, which has supported him with prayer, visits, food and many kind words.

In addition to his friendships, his work and his ministry, Ben traveled to Peru twice, once with brother Corey, spending time with people he grew up with, to Saipan to visit a friend and to Europe with brother Andy and a number of friends. He did wilderness camping with Andy and his sister Kirsty, and as late as this July, went down a mountain coaster twice. He lived life with melanoma as he had in the years before-- with passion, enthusiasm and love.

He stayed strong in his faith in our Lord Jesus and counted on prayers and on the Bible.

There will be two memorial celebrations of Ben's life, one in or near Auburn Hills, MI, this Friday, August 29, and near Elmhurst, IL this Monday, August 31. Burial arrangements will be private. We will post again with more specific details about these celebrations as we get the details settled.

Those of us who love Ben have been deeply touched by all the expressions of love and prayers on Caring Bridge.

http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/benpaney

[LilLamb219]

My condolences. I know how much you cared for him and it was so sweet of you to introduce us to him here.

[WildStrawberry]

Thank you Dear Lord, for bringing your servant Ben peacefully back into Your loving arms. May you grant Your peace to his family and friends as they mourn his loss and give them the wonderful hope of seeing him again in Your Kingdom.

In Jesus' Name we pray,

Amen

[latebloomer]

Thank you Dear Lord, for bringing your servant Ben peacefully back into Your loving arms. May you grant Your peace to his family and friends as they mourn his loss and give them the wonderful hope of seeing him again in Your Kingdom.

In Jesus' Name we pray,

Amen

Amen and Amen

[Edial]

Great thread ...

We just might see it again ... in Heaven. :)

Ed

[Radiata]

I'm getting a flood of emails from Ben's family and friends and caringbridge. The amount of people that have been touched by him is astounding.

Now that he's finally resting I guess I'll say what I've been hiding. I actually have an agape love for Ben. I never realized it until today. The only prayer concerning Ben that God answered was that he finally is out of his suffering. When I prayed, I actually wanted to die in his place. If possible, I wanted to take his suffering for myself. Any cost that I could pay, I would gladly give for the purpose of keeping him alive. And if God answered this prayer then I certainly wasn't going to tell anybody. I would just let it play out and all would be good. The amount of people that Ben has ministered to in his half-lifetime is more than I could ever do. I have always said that if I had only one wish, it would be that everyone would go to heaven when they died. If one of us had to die, that wish would be closer fulfilled if I was the one to go. In my ignorant youth, I went against that proverb, "It is not good to have zeal without knowledge." I found out that the hard way. I tried many times to advance Christianity without any knowledge or wisdom and most likely hurt it instead of helping it. Sometimes I try and weigh whether or not the world would be better off had I never been born. Have I helped or hurt Christianity more? That's why I wanted suffer in his place. Because God's kingdom is much better off in the more capable hands of Ben rather than mine. My desire for his life was not selfishly motivated. But he's gone and no one benefits except Ben and the devil himself. I'm going to miss you. I never even got the chance to say good bye. The last time I saw you was last Tuesday, and the last time I talked with you was on Friday. I called Saturday but I couldn't reach you. I tried to send you a note when I was at the hospital on Sunday, but I don't even know if you got that. I was going to send you a letter everyday but then you left. You told me to visit you when they sent you home. But you were only there for less than a day. I still needed to talk to you but now you left me here, and I don't know what I'll do without you. A big part of my life is now gone and I don't know how to compensate. It may be a long time before we see each other again. And we'll just have to wait until that time.

Good bye. With love,
Zach

[filosofer]

Blessings to you Radiata. Thanks for sharing Ben's life with us.

[Radiata]

If anyone cares, CaringBridge was updated today and I was given a link to the slideshoe that was played at Ben's celebration. If anyone wants to see it, here it is.
http://www.3tondesign.com/benpaney/

[LilLamb219]

Thanks for sharing :) (for those who might not know it, click on the 4 photos that first come up so you can view the slideshow).

[filosofer]

Yes, thanks for sharing that. Well done as a tribute to God's work in his life through many people.

[Edial]

If anyone cares, CaringBridge was updated today and I was given a link to the slideshoe that was played at Ben's celebration. If anyone wants to see it, here it is.
http://www.3tondesign.com/benpaney/
I was also watching his parents, how they changed with time from a young couple to gray hairs.
Good family.
What happened is such a burden for them to bear.