Of those here who actually try to keep rabbinically Kosher....

[Henaynei]

what would you do, how would you handle it if you found that you had to live in a place where fish and kosher meat was unavailable?

Would you become vegetarian? or handle it some other way?

consider:
Jewish people moved to the Americas well before the Revolutionary war - the early ones would have had no shoket....

Jewish people moved west in the US during our youth to areas where there were no other Jews and certainly no shoket.... how do you think THEY handled this??

In both these situations the vast majority of Jewry was strongly observant.... and yet move they did, into areas where initially and possibly for many years there was no Jewish community.... if you have been they how would YOU have handled it??

[ChavaK]

what would you do, how would you handle it if you found that you had to live in a place where fish and kosher meat was unavailable?
Fish shouldn't be a problem, so it is just a matter of giving up the meat.
I don't eat a whole lot of meat anyway, so I wouldn't consider it an issue.
I'd stick to fish, eggs, dairy products and lots of veggies and fruit.



consider:
Jewish people moved to the Americas well before the Revolutionary war - the early ones would have had no shoket....

Jewish people moved west in the US during our youth to areas where there were no other Jews and certainly no shoket.... how do you think THEY handled this??
Do we know they did not have a shochet? In ye olde days it may have
been more common for people to be trained to schect because they
could not rely on large metropolitan areas to provide kosher meat.
For instance, our Chabad rabbi is a schochet although he is not longer
involved in it. The sephardi rabbi here will schecht animals when asked..
So there may not be a kosher packing plant here, but I could have an
animal schected if I really had the need...

In both these situations the vast majority of Jewry was strongly observant.... and yet move they did, into areas where initially and possibly for many years there was no Jewish community.... if you have been they how would YOU have handled it??
Keeping kosher is not dependent on where you live; it's not a matter
of convenience. If the food wasn't kosher, it doesn't get eaten.

[Torah613]

Fish shouldn't be a problem, so it is just a matter of giving up the meat.
I don't eat a whole lot of meat anyway, so I wouldn't consider it an issue.
I'd stick to fish, eggs, dairy products and lots of veggies and fruit.



Do we know they did not have a shochet? In ye olde days it may have
been more common for people to be trained to schect because they
could not rely on large metropolitan areas to provide kosher meat.
For instance, our Chabad rabbi is a schochet although he is not longer
involved in it. The sephardi rabbi here will schecht animals when asked..
So there may not be a kosher packing plant here, but I could have an
animal schected if I really had the need...

Keeping kosher is not dependent on where you live; it's not a matter
of convenience. If the food wasn't kosher, it doesn't get eaten.

I am already vegetarian, so for me it would not be an issue.

If I was a meat-eater, and lived in an area where no kosher meat was available (this is my current reality), I would drive to where it was available, pack on dry ice, and drive home.

In pre-revolutionary days the first official "person" ina community was usually a shocket, who usually also doubled as chazzen. Among the Mashadi Jews of Iran, all men were trained as shocket as safety necessitated rotating the schedule to keep the authorities at bay.

As Chava says, Kosher is not about convenience. Its a mitzvah. The only acceptable way to break it is pirket nefesh, to save a life. However if said food was sacrificed to an idol, than it may not be eaten even to save life.

Finally, some modern orthdox hold that treif meat can be kashered through heavier salting and rinsing to remove the blood.

If all the above fails, it is fairly easy to kosher slaughter a chicken (or other fowl) with fairly minimal training.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

Finally, some modern orthdox hold that treif meat can be kashered through heavier salting and rinsing to remove the blood.

Yochanan

No, no, no! No treif meat can never be made kosher by salting
if it wasn't schect properly.

Citations, please?

[Torah613]

No, no, no! No treif meat can never be made kosher by salting
if it wasn't schect properly.

Citations, please?

I read it somewhere....

I think maybe in that book you said wasn't viewed as Kosher by frum soceity? Or maybe another book??? I've read so many....

Yochanan

[Talmidah]

Without a doubt, I'd become vegetarian.

[Torah613]

My sincerest apologies for posting bad information. This is what happens when you've been vegetarian for so long...

Yochanan

[Talmidah]

Keeping kosher is not dependent on where you live; it's not a matter
of convenience. If the food wasn't kosher, it doesn't get eaten.

:thumbsup:

[anisavta]

Fish shouldn't be a problem, so it is just a matter of giving up the meat.
I don't eat a whole lot of meat anyway, so I wouldn't consider it an issue.
I'd stick to fish, eggs, dairy products and lots of veggies and fruit.




:thumbsup:

[ChavaK]

I read it somewhere....

I think maybe in that book you said wasn't viewed as Kosher by frum soceity? Or maybe another book??? I've read so many....

Yochanan

It does get confusing, doesn't it? But even the Greenberg book
would not say that....perhaps it wasn't something from the
Conservative movement?

Or perhaps in a case of absolute need, pekuah nefesh, where
absolutely no other food was available and one had to eat
treif meat, it would be better to at least salt it if possible?

[Talmidah]

It does get confusing, doesn't it? But even the Greenberg book
would not say that....perhaps it wasn't something from the
Conservative movement? I don't think even the conservative movement would publish anything like that, unless they've undergone even more drastic changes that I'm aware of.

Or perhaps in a case of absolute need, pekuah nefesh, where
absolutely no other food was available and one had to eat
treif meat, it would be better to at least salt it if possible?Hmmm....maybe.

[Henaynei]

Without a doubt, I'd become vegetarian.:) that is a valiant idea, but in a situation where no vegetables were available, such as one found on a wagon travelling west?? they had no canning, refrigeration, freeze-dried or fresh veggies - all they had was dried grains and legumes supplemented by what could be hunted, and cow's milk to start with but they often were killed by predators, the conditions or the pioneers themselves before they were too far along.... it is hard to survive on biscuits and beans for a year or more.....

[Henaynei]

there are many good thoughts presented here, I'm enjoying the discussion :D

[Talmidah]

:) that is a valiant idea, but in a situation where no vegetables were available, such as one found on a wagon travelling west?? they had no canning, refrigeration, freeze-dried or fresh veggies - all they had was dried grains and legumes supplemented by what could be hunted, and cow's milk to start with but they often were killed by predators, the conditions or the pioneers themselves before they were too far along.... it is hard to survive on biscuits and beans for a year or more.....

Sorry, Henaynei, I thought you were talking about people NOW who don't have access to kosher meats. I read the OP too quickly before replying.

As Chava mentioned, if it comes down to pikuach nefesh, you do what you have to do. However, I think it is not difficult to assume that they had people trained as shochet along with them. Regardless, obviously you take every measure possible to have kosher sources of food....beans & legumes like you mentioned, eggs and milk whenever possible, kosher-slaughtered and salted chicken/meat. And if it is to the point where you are about to die of starvation and there is absolutely no alternative, then again, you do what you need to do and violate as little halacha as possible in doing it.

[anisavta]

Are there any diaries or journals of Jews crossing the country during that time period that could give us a hint of what did happen?

[ChavaK]

Are there any diaries or journals of Jews crossing the country during that time period that could give us a hint of what did happen?

I do remember hearing about a diary a Jewish woman kept-
she lived in one of the plains states in the 1880's.

It was turned into a book, but I don't remember the name
of it or who wrote it....never read it but I heard it was
interesting.

[Torah613]

It does get confusing, doesn't it? But even the Greenberg book
would not say that....perhaps it wasn't something from the
Conservative movement?

Or perhaps in a case of absolute need, pekuah nefesh, where
absolutely no other food was available and one had to eat
treif meat, it would be better to at least salt it if possible?

it could have been. I've read a ton of books, and not all were frum in perspective.

Yochanan

[anisavta]

I'd like to read it though just to know how it was back then for Jews.
Or we could watch The Frisco Kid...;)

[ShoshanaUK]

We've been more or less vegetarian for years, but I've just discovered a kosher delivery company in the UK, so I've just placed an order and I am looking forward to getting it tomorrow!

[Henaynei]

We've been more or less vegetarian for years, but I've just discovered a kosher delivery company in the UK, so I've just placed an order and I am looking forward to getting it tomorrow!B"H Mazel Tov!!!:thumbsup:

[Lulav]

No, no, no! No treif meat can never be made kosher by salting
if it wasn't schect properly.

Citations, please?Yeah, I was saying the same to myself here, how can that possibly reverse the butchering? It can't. I know some messianics that go by this , but the blood needs to be drained within so many hours, else it gets into the tissue doesn't it, and won't come out.

The only thing I kasher are Kosher Chicken livers, I salt them and drain first ( they do this too, but I find I get more blood out) and then I broil them.

[Lulav]

As far as the 'olden' days there was such a thing then and still today as jerky, or dried beef or venison,etc. this stuff lasts a long time. Chickens could be kept in a small cage and eggs could be eaten from them.

Check it out, Kosher beef jerky (http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A3596301%2Cp_n_feature_browse-bin%3A114308011&page=1)

As for today, there are many Kosher shops that ship around the country, make an order and even if you aren't well off, save the meat for Shabbat eating, eat Tuna, Salmon, Sardines, Mackerel, and the ever handy gefilte etc as well as other heckshers frozen fish products. There is also a protein substitute that you can eat ( I can't) such as Morning star and Boca burgers I think are kosher.

there are also RTE kosher meals that contain meat and can be used as a treat once in awhile and can be taken any where with no refrigeration, and can even be cooked on shabbat using no flame. ( chemical heating), called La Bruite. Kosher.com is now selling these.

I would imagine that making a cholent with jerky would be quite good, with all that slow cooking, something for the adventurous to try.

[Torah613]

Morningstar and Boca are not Kosher. Trust your e-local frum vegan on this one. ;)

Unless you are a Kohan, you are not under halachic obligation to eat meat. It is only a mitzvah for Kohanim to eat certain parts of the sacrificial animals. Since the Beis HaMikdash is no longer standing (Bezrat Hashem--soon and in our days), this is a mitzvah that cannot be fulfilled. So technically, there is nothing wrong with following the vegetarian route.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

Yeah, I was saying the same to myself here, how can that possibly reverse the butchering? It can't. I know some messianics that go by this , but the blood needs to be drained within so many hours, else it gets into the tissue doesn't it, and won't come out.

The only thing I kasher are Kosher Chicken livers, I salt them and drain first ( they do this too, but I find I get more blood out) and then I broil them.


I am so incredibly sorry for having posted this bad information in the first place.

I've been vegetarian for 11 years now. I must admit to being very vastly underinformed when it comes to the Kashrus regarding meat.

yochanan

[Lulav]

No, no, no! No treif meat can never be made kosher by salting
if it wasn't schect properly.

Citations, please?

Morningstar and Boca are not Kosher. Trust your e-local frum vegan on this one. ;)

Unless you are a Kohan, you are not under halachic obligation to eat meat. It is only a mitzvah for Kohanim to eat certain parts of the sacrificial animals. Since the Beis HaMikdash is no longer standing (Bezrat Hashem--soon and in our days), this is a mitzvah that cannot be fulfilled. So technically, there is nothing wrong with following the vegetarian route.

Yochanan I am not sure about Boca, but I used to get morning star so they had to be Kosher.

I am so incredibly sorry for having posted this bad information in the first place.

I've been vegetarian for 11 years now. I must admit to being very vastly underinformed when it comes to the Kashrus regarding meat.

yochananNP :)

[Torah613]

Lulav, they may have been at one time, but (at least the stuff locally available) carries only the ubiquitous k.

Yochanan

[Lulav]

Morningstar and Boca are not Kosher. Trust your e-local frum vegan on this one. ;) Like I said, not sure about boca, I never had them, but they used to be right next to the kosher frozen stuff with the Morning star. You may not get Morning star because they are considered dairy and you vegan don't eat dairy , right? :)

They have eggs and milk in them.

You may not trust the Kosher house of certification which is OK but some do. :)

[Lulav]

Lulav, they may have been at one time, but (at least the stuff locally available) carries only the ubiquitous k.

Yochanan

http://www.ok.org/kfgProducts.asp?ir=&V=KELLOGG'S%2FWORTHINGTON+FOODS%2C+INC

[Torah613]

well actually I had lacto ova guests so was looking at them for a milching meal. The ones here are not printed with the Ok, but with the plain K. Of course, personally I only use OU products as I am not attached to a particular rav at the moment (And am not personally educated enough to know which are ok) and the OU is universally accepted, except among some satmar--but they are weird anyways.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

boca carries no hechster, not even their certified vegan stuff.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

Morningstar and Boca are not Kosher. Trust your e-local frum vegan on this one. ;)
Morningstar is kosher, is has an OK-D so maybe vegans would not want to
eat it. Boca does not have a hechsher.
Yochanan[/quote]

[ChavaK]

Lulav, they may have been at one time, but (at least the stuff locally available) carries only the ubiquitous k.

Yochanan


We have a freezer full of Morningstar Crumbles that have OD-D on them.
We haven't boughten any in a couple of months so maybe they have
changed. In which case my husband will have withdrawl, he is addicted
to the stuff.
I'll have to look at the store today and see if anything is different.
Or maybe it varies by product, maybe they are not all produced in
the same plant.

[Lulav]

May be, it's been about a year since I've been able to eat them because they contain wheat or some type of gluten. My hubby loved them as well, but is happy with the Neshama sausage, we had some of the andoulle sausage this morning and boy is it spicy for those who like spicy. They are kosher and also organic and GF so I love them.
We used to get the patty sausages, great for b'fast and also I would saute them with some onions and they made a great pizza topping, for pre-made ( like Amnons and Betz Bros) or for my own which I usually made, tasted better. I should write to them and ask if they have any considerations of making a GF version in the future.

[Lulav]

Hey, I just found these, and may just order them. I can't eat any hot dogs that are kosher because they all ( the ones around me) contain nitrites and MSG which is get very sick on. But these are corn dogs and gluten free ones at that! Haven't had one in so long, not a favorite food but a change of pace.

Oh, found them at Kosher.com

[Torah613]

well it must be seperate plants then. That irks me that they don't have the OK ones here, as I wasn't able to serve that to my guests and felt like an inhospitable host.

So, is OK acceptable in the frum world?

Yochanan

[Lulav]

Are things that are certified vegan required to be only processed on vegan equipment?

[Lulav]

BTW, Yochanan, do you ever bake GF? I have a lot of recipes I could share with you that are GF and made with soy ( no dairy) and no eggs ( some use what is called egg substitute which has no eggs in it) because many Celiacs also are lactose intolerant and also don't eat eggs, Baruch HaShem, I don't have that problem too!

[Henaynei]

Are things that are certified vegan required to be only processed on vegan equipment?Iknow most know this, but for public reading:

Vegan in no way ensures kosher ......

[Henaynei]

BTW, Yochanan, do you ever bake GF? I have a lot of recipes I could share with you that are GF and made with soy ( no dairy) and no eggs ( some use what is called egg substitute which has no eggs in it) because many Celiacs also are lactose intolerant and also don't eat eggs, Baruch HaShem, I don't have that problem too!egg substitutes are often made from flax seed - a good ource of various minerals and healthy oils...

[Torah613]

Are things that are certified vegan required to be only processed on vegan equipment?

Unfortunately no as the FDA has no regs on it. There are a couple of, albeit very small, vegan certifying agencies that essentially work like the Kosher organizations.

Mostly though, you just have to go with companies that only produce vegan products. (and are known within the vegan community to be trustworthy).

The other option is to look for something that is certified pareve, and then check for eggs.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

BTW, Yochanan, do you ever bake GF? I have a lot of recipes I could share with you that are GF and made with soy ( no dairy) and no eggs ( some use what is called egg substitute which has no eggs in it) because many Celiacs also are lactose intolerant and also don't eat eggs, Baruch HaShem, I don't have that problem too!

recipees you say?

yochanan

[Lulav]

Iknow most know this, but for public reading:

Vegan in no way ensures kosher ......:confused:

[Torah613]

Lulav,

For vegetables to be Kosher they must be checked.

In addition there are issues of shared equipment, pans/serving dishes that were used for treif, etc.

Finally there's the issue of shmitta. If the fruits/vegetables/grains were grown in Eretz Yisrail, then it must be from a farm that observes shmitta. Not to mention the other laws that apply specifically to foods grown in Israel.

These are just a few of the issues that come up.

Yochanan

[anisavta]

So here is a question then:
Unless you live in Israel in a small village where you know personally the people growing and raising your food, it is possible to actually live a kosher life?

[Torah613]

of course!

Its easy here in america. You see if hte produce comes from Israel, they have to tell you. So you look at that little sticker (in some states its a sign) and if its from Israel, you note the farm and see if its certified as being observent of Shmitta.

Also those bags of produce that are prechecked for bugs would have also been prechecked for htis.

Barring all that, if its like some Israeli grain in some flour you buy, if you are not aware of the halachic violation, it is fine. That's what Yom Kippur is for.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

Any produce going into a prepackaged product would have been tested forit.

Yochanan

[anisavta]

Todah.

[Torah613]

your welcome.

[Lulav]

egg substitutes are often made from flax seed - a good ource of various minerals and healthy oils...The one I use has no flax seed in it but I do add ground flax seed to my baked goods to up the nutrition in them.

Yochanan, the one I use and is most popular with Celiacs is by EnerG. It is called Egg Replacer, a Culinary Egg substitute. It is heckshered QofK

It is GF, Wheat free, nut free, no preservatives, or artificial flavorings, sugar added and has no cholesterol, no dairy. It also has a breakdown on the box of the amino Acid analysis.

It's great to have on hand when you run out of eggs and want to bake, or if you don't eat eggs too! :)

[Lulav]

recipees you say?

yochanan yes, would you like some? What do you fancy?

Lulav,

For vegetables to be Kosher they must be checked.

In addition there are issues of shared equipment, pans/serving dishes that were used for treif, etc.

Finally there's the issue of shmitta. If the fruits/vegetables/grains were grown in Eretz Yisrail, then it must be from a farm that observes shmitta. Not to mention the other laws that apply specifically to foods grown in Israel.

These are just a few of the issues that come up.

YochananYes I know all that, :).

Any produce going into a prepackaged product would have been tested forit.

Yochanan Tested for what?

I know that any certifying house does not have a Rabbi standing there and checking every apple say, that is used to make apple juice or is chopped up to make other products certified kosher, it just isn't possible. That is why it is better to gather your own produce and check and wash.

:D Last night I was just starting to eat my spinach salad when a moth flew in it and started to crawl around, I threw out all it has crawled on. :o:sick:

[anisavta]

I too would love the recipes Lulav.
T613 my DIL is vegan and I would like to have some recipes to make for her.

[Torah613]

oh there's a bunch further down. Mostly cook sephardi though.

Yochanan

[GerTzedek]

I have a roundabout way to answer your question; if you don't like long answers, skip to the chase in the final sentence:

My very meticulous Abernethy family has kept records dating our ancestry all the way back "the confluence of waters" aka abernethy, where a chieftain named Nechtan/Nechtain or Naitan or Neithan of the Picts ruled (pronunication varies with dialect of Gaelic). He was most famous for his passionate fight to drive out the Romans. There are many lengends surrounding him. I don't pay any attention to anything said later than 70 years after than him, and am very skeptical of things that have only one source. I tend to accept one source if it is within the family, than just something some unknown Celt or Anglo or Roman said or wrote. Not all scholars agree on everything, so you can take this with a grain of salt. Nechtan had several ideosyncracies that I have always found fascinating, apart from a very strange name. He was one factor in the adoption by the picts and later the celts of sabbath observance on Saturday. He was well known for his hand washing and bathing; indeed, the "nechtan" form of his name became a slang term in the language meaning "a very clean man." And, according to family sources, he would not eat the meat brought in by hunts. He preferred to fish, and even earned a reputation for it.

[Torah613]

interesting.

Yochanan

[kivi]

what would you do, how would you handle it if you found that you had to live in a place where fish and kosher meat was unavailable?

Would you become vegetarian? or handle it some other way?

consider:
Jewish people moved to the Americas well before the Revolutionary war - the early ones would have had no shoket....

kivi says: The Portugese Jewish refugees that ended up in New Amsterdam came pretty much as a community and were quickly established. The training for shoket was much more generalized through the population 300 years ago then today were the existance of large centralized kosher estabishmets, kill floors and packing houses are very very different than the processes that existed 200 or even 100 years ago. We know that immigration from Eastern Europe 1880-1920 was done not as solitary individuals but as extended families and entire stetls. Kosher meat, dairy and poultry seems to have sprung up simultaneously with the urban Jewish communites in NY, Boston, Philly, etc. This maybe because there was still existing a small German frum community left over from the large German Jewish immigration of the ante-bellum period.

As for available foods. Fish is always available and requires no koshrus except for shellfish which must be avoided, completely. Slaughtering poultry was a skill that most families had without the need for a professional shoket. Veggies and fruits are no problem. Bread and pastries and thier kosher requirements could be handled by the family. The only real problem would be kosher meat. It would be interesting to study the growth of small Jewish communites in small towns in the industrial East [western PA comes to mind]; the South which had numerous small Jewish communities providing retail and professional services to the agricultural centered small towns and the frontier West like Arizona [Barry Goldwater comes to mind] or Denver or gulf coast Texas. In fact, after the Yom Tovim, I think I'll do some research.


Jewish people moved west in the US during our youth to areas where there were no other Jews and certainly no shoket.... how do you think THEY handled this??
kivi says: There were cases of individual Jews moving into the frontier areas of America, but no documented case of a frum Jew doing so. Most other movements into rural America was done as families with an entire 'universe' of necessary skills.

In both these situations the vast majority of Jewry was strongly observant.... and yet move they did, into areas where initially and possibly for many years there was no Jewish community.... if you have been they how would YOU have handled it??