The Suffering God calls us to ...

[victoryword]

I posed this question on another forum some months. I think it is an appropriate question here as well. May as well ask it while I still have the forum bug:

Here is a question for WoFers and anti-wofers concerning the questions of God's sovereignty, suffering, sickness, and persecution. The WoF is often criticized by some here for not accepting that God calls us to suffer.

On the contrary, I agree (because the Bible teaches) that we will suffer. The dispute between many wof and anti-wof is NOT whether or not we must suffer, but the nature of what we must suffer. I am a firm believer that the type of afflictions that we are called to suffer is PERSECUTION - and that at the hands of other men. I (and every WoFer that I am aware of) do not believe that we are called to suffer sickness.

Allow me to quote, not from a present day WoFer, but from a well known (though not living) Evangelical whose writings are still respected today. Here is a passage from Andrew Murray's classic book, Divine Healing:
The Lord spoke to the disciples of divers sufferings which they should have to bear, but when He speaks of sickness, it is always as of an evil caused by sin and Satan, and from which we should be delivered. Very solemnly He declared that every disciple of His would have to bear his cross (Matthew 16:24), but He never taught one sick person to resign himself to be sick. Everywhere Jesus healed the sick, everywhere He dealt with healing as one of the graces belonging to the kingdom of heaven. I believe that MUrray speaks my thoughts and though this was written well over 100 years ago, I believe it expresses the current WoF position.

Now here is the question: why do so many anti-wofers believe that God sovereignly brings sickness on people (and only if you were "elected" will you be healed)? Why do people believe that suffering sickness makes one more virtuous? Why do the anti-wof not understand the different types of suffering taught in Scripture and make the distinction between that which we are called to suffer and that which we were never ask to submit to?

Let's discuss this because I think this is probably one of the core disputes between the wofer and the anti-wofer.

[JimfromOhio]

I posed this question on another forum some months. I think it is an appropriate question here as well. May as well ask it while I still have the forum bug:

Here is a question for WoFers and anti-wofers concerning the questions of God's sovereignty, suffering, sickness, and persecution. The WoF is often criticized by some here for not accepting that God calls us to suffer.

On the contrary, I agree (because the Bible teaches) that we will suffer. The dispute between many wof and anti-wof is NOT whether or not we must suffer, but the nature of what we must suffer. I am a firm believer that the type of afflictions that we are called to suffer is PERSECUTION - and that at the hands of other men. I (and every WoFer that I am aware of) do not believe that we are called to suffer sickness.

Allow me to quote, not from a present day WoFer, but from a well known (though not living) Evangelical whose writings are still respected today. Here is a passage from Andrew Murray's classic book, Divine Healing:
The Lord spoke to the disciples of divers sufferings which they should have to bear, but when He speaks of sickness, it is always as of an evil caused by sin and Satan, and from which we should be delivered. Very solemnly He declared that every disciple of His would have to bear his cross (Matthew 16:24), but He never taught one sick person to resign himself to be sick. Everywhere Jesus healed the sick, everywhere He dealt with healing as one of the graces belonging to the kingdom of heaven.
I believe that MUrray speaks my thoughts and though this was written well over 100 years ago, I believe it expresses the current WoF position.

Now here is the question: why do so many anti-wofers believe that God sovereignly brings sickness on people (and only if you were "elected" will you be healed)? Why do people believe that suffering sickness makes one more virtuous? Why do the anti-wof not understand the different types of suffering taught in Scripture and make the distinction between that which we are called to suffer and that which we were never ask to submit to?

Let's discuss this because I think this is probably one of the core disputes between the wofer and the anti-wofer.

Sure, let's explore....

There are two types of sufferings, set over against each other, dominated by two wills, the will of man (us) and the will of God, respectively. Suffering (of all kinds) are often a two-sided coin. One side suffering may be viewed as coming from God to bring out the BEST in us (See: Gen. 22:1-2, 15-18; Hebrews 11:17). On the other side of the coin, Satan attempts to tempt us and sufferings to bring out the WORST in us (see: James 1:13-14).

In 2 Corinthians 9, Paul explains the sources of "thorns" can be weaknesses, insults, distresses, persecutions and difficulties (which also includes sickness).

Why WOFers exclude weaknesses, insults, distresses and difficulties and ONLY FOCUS on persecutions? Because their doctrines are messed up.

Paul explained that we need to focus on God rather than the problem. God uses thorns (sufferings) to perfect His "power is perfected in weakness".

Thorns are not necessarily evil, but rather sanctification in which God answers our prayers according to His will. With that in mind, I am reminded that "God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work." (2 Corinthians 9:8)

James says count it all joy when you fall into various trials cause trials have a perfecting work. Peter says after you've suffered a while the Lord will make you perfect. God uses suffering to reveal our spiritual condition. In the midst of the sufferings, what kind of Christian do you see yourself? God answers not by removing the pain, because the pain was productive, rather God gave Grace to endure. In this life it is inevitable and it is useful because it produces the evidence of your true spiritual condition, humility and intimacy with God and allows God to put Himself on display in His grace.

"Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." (James 1:4).

[Faithful Love]

so Jim, do you believe you are deaf because God wants you to be deaf?

[dkbwarrior]

In 2 Corinthians 9, Paul explains the sources of "thorns" can be weaknesses, insults, distresses, persecutions and difficulties (which also includes sickness).


Thats strange, my Bible says that the source of Pauls thorn was an angel of satan, sent to buffet him:

7...there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger [angel] of Satan to buffet me...
-2 Corinthians 9:7

These things that you mention are not the source of the thorn, but rather the symptoms of the thorn. The source of the thorn was satan.


Why WOFers exclude weaknesses, insults, distresses and difficulties and ONLY FOCUS on persecutions? Because their doctrines are messed up.


Because that is what Paul is talking about. Lets explore shall we:

8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
-2 Corinthians 9:8-10

There is no need for you to try to interpret what Paul means by these infirmities, reproaches, necessities, persecutions and distresses; Paul tells us exactly what these infirmities are, what he glories in.

18Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
19For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
23Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
30If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
-2 Corinthians 11:18-20, 23-25, 30

Please note that none of these infirmities that Paul gloried in involved sickness. In fact they were all direct persecution, or the indirect result of preaching in hostile areas.

Satan had assigned an angel to follow Paul around and stir up persecution to withstand the gospel. This is what Paul asked God to remove from him, and what God said he had enough grace to withstand.

Plenty of WOF missionaries (as well as faithful missionaries from nearly every christian denomination) have laid aside their priviledges in their home countries to willingly place themselves into situations like this, believing God to use them to bring the gospel to other cultures and people.

But we don't have to do it sick.

Peace...

[ImmersionX]

so Jim, do you believe you are deaf because God wants you to be deaf?


I believe that Jim is deaf for a reason...a part of God's Will, and His overall plan for him. I am interested in his response to this as well btw.

Quoted from the OP:

Plenty of WOF missionaries (as well as faithful missionaries from nearly every christian denomination) have laid aside their priviledges in their home countries to willingly place themselves into situations like this, believing God to use them to bring the gospel to other cultures and people.

Wonderful!!!!
Bring the real Gospel and I will be totally impressed.


To address the OP: that's the problem with WoF doctrine.
Jim I agree...it's "all messed up".


God Bless you Jim.

:)

[ImmersionX]

Satan had assigned an angel to follow Paul around and stir up persecution to withstand the gospel. This is what Paul asked God to remove from him, and what God said he had enough grace to withstand.


But we don't have to do it sick.

Peace...

Where in the name of our Lord to you get this?


The "thorn in my side" that Paul was talking of was some sort of ailment I am convinced, God said "nope not gonna remove it", Paul was fine with that...cause overall it didn't matter, and Paul was all about suffering in the name of our Lord. An Angel sent from Satan????????????????????????

Wow!

[The Lord is my banner]

The "thorn in my side" that Paul was talking of was some sort of ailment I am convinced,




What reason can you give for your conclusion that a thorn refers to an ailment, a sickness?


Elsewhere in the Bible, the word "thorn" was used to refer to the negative influence on, or persecution of, God's people by ungodly folks.
It is never used elsewhere in the Bible to refer to sickness.



"But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live."

Numbers 33:55



"the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations before you. Instead, they will become snares and traps for you, whips on your backs and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land, which the LORD your God has given you."

Joshua 23:13



"The angel of the LORD went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land that I swore to give to your forefathers. I said, 'I will never break my covenant with you, and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.' Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this?
Now therefore I tell you that I will not drive them out before you; they will be thorns in your sides and their gods will be a snare to you.

Judges 2:1-3

[JimfromOhio]

so Jim, do you believe you are deaf because God wants you to be deaf?
Many people have asked me that and I don't mind their questions but I do mind their ignorant responses. The fear generated by bad theologies was a problem that disabled people faced in Jesus’ day as today’s Christians with bad theologies. In John 9:2-3, Jesus and His disciples encountered a blind man. “His disciples asked Him, ‘Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?’ ‘Neither this man nor his parents sinned,’ said Jesus, ‘but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.’” A solid and sound theological framework is needed to understand disabilities and God's sovereignty over suffering.

God is causing all things to work together for our good, which means our eternal glory because we love God because He first loved us and purposed to bring us to His Great Glory. Romans 8:28-29 "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. In the Old Testament, God says to Moses at the burning bush, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?” (Exodus 4:11; see also 2 Corinthians 12:7-9). No one lives and dies but by God’s sovereign authority. In Genesis, Joseph said to his family "As far as I am concerned, God turned into good what you meant for evil. He brought me to the high position I have today so I could save the lives of many people." Ecclesiastes 7:14 When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other. Therefore, a man cannot discover anything about his future. In Ephesians 1:11, "He works all things according to the purpose of His own will."

Even though God will not take away my problems but He always been there for me when I am facing problems. What did my "life" teach me? What have I learned from this "life"? Trials including my disabilities taught me that God is more concerned with my character which He is building in me. He comforts me in His arms through His power of Grace on the journey to His destiny for me as Paul explains: “Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope.” (Romans 5:3-4). I will not allow negative circumstances control my life just because I am deaf, I have multiple sclerosis, other circumstances I have. As a Christian, I am happy that God have taught me with those circumstances so that I can understand His grace.

God have already reserved my time of death (which I do not know when) because He is my creator and I have on control over my long living life. The Bible and the Holy Spirit clearly taught me that God didn't merely promise me that temporal good will come out of difficult situations but did promised that whatever I do during my trials that God will be with me and I will Glorify God. I arrived naked from the womb of my mother; I will leave in the same condition--with nothing. Ecclesiastes 3:2: "a time to be born and a time to die".

I like this quote:
God has reserved to Himself the right to determine the end of life, because He alone knows the goal to which it is His will to lead it. It is for Him alone to justify a life or to cast it away. Dietrich Bonhoeffer

I see people especially WOF limit God's ability of what He can do when they focus on something when God is able to everything including what He can do with people who has disabilities. I am legally deaf since birth (Hard of Hearing) and I have Relapsing-remitting Multiple Sclerosis (RRMS) (Diagnosed in April 2002). (deafness caused by nerve damage, MS caused by nerve scars.) God knows me so well that He will do His providential actions at the very moment of my need according to His will. For the longest time, I thought I have planned and executed my life all by myself but really never aware that my life have always been guided by God.

This is ONE my quotes I have made in my journals:
“Okay, I have hearing loss (deaf) and multiple sclerosis, and those are the ways of life for me. I take silence and pain as come and I have learned master them in my life. My disabilities do not have me. I have the disabilities and I accept them because I know who I am from the inside. Everything has its wonders, even silence and pain, and I learn whatever disabilities and difficulties I may be in, I am happily content.”
Proverbs 19:23 The fear of the LORD leads to life: Then one rests content, untouched by trouble.

Philippians 4:11-12 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.

1 Timothy 6:8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that.

Hebrews 13:5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."

When you cannot answer a skeptic, be content to wait for more light; but never forsake a great principle. J.C. Ryle

"This is God's universal purpose for all Christian suffering - more contentment in God and less satisfaction with self." John Piper

So to ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, I do BELIEVE that God has something to do with this while I understand SIN is the root causes of all illnesses (including ignorance), God will use anything according to His will.

[JimfromOhio]

Thats strange, my Bible says that the source of Pauls thorn was an angel of satan, sent to buffet him:

7...there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger [angel] of Satan to buffet me...
-2 Corinthians 9:7

These things that you mention are not the source of the thorn, but rather the symptoms of the thorn. The source of the thorn was satan.



Because that is what Paul is talking about. Lets explore shall we:

8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
-2 Corinthians 9:8-10

There is no need for you to try to interpret what Paul means by these infirmities, reproaches, necessities, persecutions and distresses; Paul tells us exactly what these infirmities are, what he glories in.

18Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
19For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
23Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
30If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
-2 Corinthians 11:18-20, 23-25, 30

Please note that none of these infirmities that Paul gloried in involved sickness. In fact they were all direct persecution, or the indirect result of preaching in hostile areas.

Satan had assigned an angel to follow Paul around and stir up persecution to withstand the gospel. This is what Paul asked God to remove from him, and what God said he had enough grace to withstand.

Plenty of WOF missionaries (as well as faithful missionaries from nearly every christian denomination) have laid aside their priviledges in their home countries to willingly place themselves into situations like this, believing God to use them to bring the gospel to other cultures and people.

But we don't have to do it sick.

Peace...

Paul's thorns reminds me of Job's situation. ;)

We don't know the kinds of Paul's thorn but when Paul wrote later, he listed all the thorns and he didn't say which one he was experiencing.

I agree with you that, reading Corinthians and history of Corinthians, Paul defines this thorn in his flesh, a messenger of Satan (that's another word for a demon, Satan's angel).

Satan sometimes causes illness (Job 2:7; Luke 13:16) – but in these references, as everywhere, Satan unwittingly serves God's ends and purposes. Clearly, Scriptures reveals that no trial, no disease or illness, no accident or injury reaches us apart from God's permission. It is clearly that God may not initiate all our trials, including diseases, birth deformities and injuries, but by the time they reach us, they are His will for us for whatever time and purpose that He determines. When Satan, other people, or accidents bring us sorrow, we can answer like Joseph to his brothers who sold him into slavery, “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good.” God takes no pleasure in our suffering. Comfort and the spiritual strength to overcome grief, affliction and loss is found that God weeps with us and that He is absolutely present in our darkest hour of need. As our Great Shepherd, He walks us through the valley of the shadow of death every time (Psalm. 23). God's purpose in redemption was not to make people’s lives happy, healthy and free of trouble; His purpose was to rescue them from sin then conform them from the inside out to the image of His Son by the power of His Spirit. Disability allows the life of Christ to be manifested to others through the flesh. God builds strength, virtue, compassion, faith and sacrificial love into His children “to become conformed to the image of His son.” (Romans 8:29)

2 Corinthians 12:9
God said: "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I (Paul) will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

[victoryword]

Well Jim, plenty of prooftexting and nice quotes but nothing of any substance. As for ImmersionX, just a little too much venom and hatred for my tastes. So ....

Looks like nothing will ever change. Some will believe that suffering sickness and disease is God's sovereign will for them and will fight heavily for their right to stay sick. I apologize for interfering. Please, take all of the sickness and disease you desire if that is where your faith is at. I will no longer attempt to convince you otherwise.

Yes, I know. My doctrines are messed up. They cannot be proven by Scripture since all of the Scripture I have cited has been dissected from your Bibles. I want to declare the anti-wof crowd the winners of these debates with me. You have won. You have worn me down in only a couple of days of being here. You win. Your reward is that your doctrine shall now be the prevailing on on CF Spirit-Filled forums and I and others like me shall be assigned to the heretics chamber. :thumbsup:

[dkbwarrior]

Well Jim, plenty of prooftexting and nice quotes but nothing of any substance. As for ImmersionX, just a little too much venom and hatred for my tastes. So ....

Looks like nothing will ever change. Some will believe that suffering sickness and disease is God's sovereign will for them and will fight heavily for their right to stay sick. I apologize for interfering. Please, take all of the sickness and disease you desire if that is where your faith is at. I will no longer attempt to convince you otherwise.

Yes, I know. My doctrines are messed up. They cannot be proven by Scripture since all of the Scripture I have cited has been dissected from your Bibles. I want to declare the anti-wof crowd the winners of these debates with me. You have won. You have worn me down in only a couple of days of being here. You win. Your reward is that your doctrine shall now be the prevailing on on CF Spirit-Filled forums and I and others like me shall be assigned to the heretics chamber. :thumbsup:

I feel you V. But don't be discouraged, it's not your job to change anyones mind. As long as I am here, their doctrine will not be the prevailing one. I will continue to put forth the Word.

I rarely get discouraged here, because I am not trying to convince the people I am debating with. I don't debate for their sake, I debate for the sake of those listening. Trust me, there are many more listening than participating.

I would never have this debate with these folks one on one. There would be no purpose. Many have already made up there minds, and some have hardened their hearts.

I debate here because it is an open forum, and many are here to learn. I debate for their sake, not my own.

Peace...

[victoryword]

I feel you V. But don't be discouraged, it's not your job to change anyones mind. As long as I am here, their doctrine will not be the prevailing one. I will continue to put forth the Word.

I rarely get discouraged here, because I am not trying to convince the people I am debating with. I don't debate for their sake, I debate for the sake of those listening. Trust me, there are many more listening than participating.

I would never have this debate with these folks one on one. There would be no purpose. Many have already made up there minds, and some have hardened their hearts.

I debate here becasue it is an open forum, and many are here to learn. I debate for their sake, not my own.

Peace...

Excellent points DBK. :thumbsup:

[JimfromOhio]

Well Jim, plenty of prooftexting and nice quotes but nothing of any substance. As for ImmersionX, just a little too much venom and hatred for my tastes. So ....

Looks like nothing will ever change. Some will believe that suffering sickness and disease is God's sovereign will for them and will fight heavily for their right to stay sick. I apologize for interfering. Please, take all of the sickness and disease you desire if that is where your faith is at. I will no longer attempt to convince you otherwise.

Yes, I know. My doctrines are messed up. They cannot be proven by Scripture since all of the Scripture I have cited has been dissected from your Bibles. I want to declare the anti-wof crowd the winners of these debates with me. You have won. You have worn me down in only a couple of days of being here. You win. Your reward is that your doctrine shall now be the prevailing on on CF Spirit-Filled forums and I and others like me shall be assigned to the heretics chamber. :thumbsup:

As one Christian said "Sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise choice that man's will is free because God is sovereign." The Bible affirms that God is sovereign, that believer gets no credit for his or her own healing or blessings because God does all. If God's decisions were based on man's actions, then man is sovereign and gets the credit for his own faith. :P

[JimfromOhio]

I feel you V. But don't be discouraged, it's not your job to change anyones mind. As long as I am here, their doctrine will not be the prevailing one. I will continue to put forth the Word.

I rarely get discouraged here, because I am not trying to convince the people I am debating with. I don't debate for their sake, I debate for the sake of those listening. Trust me, there are many more listening than participating.

I would never have this debate with these folks one on one. There would be no purpose. Many have already made up there minds, and some have hardened their hearts.

I debate here because it is an open forum, and many are here to learn. I debate for their sake, not my own.

Peace...

Not V, not you or me are able to convince anyone with our doctrines. We all just explain what we believe in and God takes care of the rest. The Holy Spirit have been trying to draw people to Him by convicting them to understand the biblical truth and put their faith in God but not put their faith in their faith. Its the Holy Spirit that convicted us to accept Christ and what doctrines to believe. Not the Church, not other believers nor amnyone else. The main Church's roles (all believers) are planting, teaching and exhortation.

[dkbwarrior]

If God's decisions were based on man's actions, then man is sovereign and gets the credit for his own faith. :P

No, man does not get credit for faith, it is a gift from God, and it is contained in Gods Word.

Man does get credit for what Jesus did on the cross, by making the choice to receive it by faith.

If faith is a work, as you seem to imply, then that would mean that we are saved by works. Because it is only by grace through faith that we are saved.

God didn't decide to save some, and decide to send some to hell. God decided that He wanted all men to be saved. But we make the choice to accept it or reject it, to believe it or not.

You can call that works all you want, but you are wrong. It is faith, not works. Paul very clearly tells us that faith is not a work:

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
-Romans 4:3-5

You are making the same interpretive mistake here that you are making consistenly throughout these discussions. Just because JimFromOhio thinks that faith is a work, does not make it truth. What is truth is what God says is a work.

Frankly, your interpretaion of words means nothing. That is why the scriptures are not of any private interpretation. Because we use words differently than God, and words change meaning over time.

You have to deduce the biblical meaning of a word, then apply it in your interpretation. And according to the Bible, faith is not a work.

Peace...

[Jimbeaux]

VW, to say that God does not cause sickness is to ignore a large portion of scripture that says that He does.

Does God cause illness?

Exodus 4.
11 So the LORD said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the LORD?

Lev. 26.
14 ‘But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, 15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant, 16 I also will do this to you: I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart.

Deut. 28.
20 The LORD will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. 21 The LORD will make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish . . . 27 The LORD will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed . . . 59 Then the LORD will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues—great and prolonged plagues—and serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the LORD bring upon you until you are destroyed.

Deut 32.
39 ‘Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

2 Sam 12.
15 Then Nathan departed to his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became ill. 16 David therefore pleaded with God for the child, and David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground . . . 19 When David saw that his servants were whispering, David perceived that the child was dead. Therefore David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” And they said, “He is dead.”


2 Kings 15.
5 Then the LORD struck the king, so that he was a leper until the day of his death; so he dwelt in an isolated house. And Jotham the king’s son was over the royal house, judging the people of the land.

2 Chron 7.
13 When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people.


2 Chron 21.
14 Behold, the LORD will strike your people with a serious affliction—your children, your wives, and all your possessions; 15 and you will become very sick with a disease of your intestines, until your intestines come out by reason of the sickness, day by day.


Psalm 38.
3 There is no soundness in my flesh Because of Your anger, Nor any health in my bones.

Isaiah 19.
22 And the LORD will strike Egypt, He will strike and heal it; they will return to the LORD, and He will be entreated by them and heal them

Ezekiel 24.
15 Also the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 16 “Son of man, behold, I take away from you the desire of your eyes with one stroke; yet you shall neither mourn nor weep, nor shall your tears run down. 17 Sigh in silence, make no mourning for the dead; bind your turban on your head, and put your sandals on your feet; do not cover your lips, and do not eat man’s bread of sorrow.” 18 So I spoke to the people in the morning, and at evening my wife died;and the next morning I did as I was commanded.

Micah 6.
13 Therefore I will also make you sick by striking you, By making you desolate because of your sins.

Luke 1.
19 And the angel answered and said to him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings. 20 But behold, you will be mute and not able to speak until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words which will be fulfilled in their own time.”

1 Cor 11.
29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

Malachi 3.6
For I am the LORD, I change not.


~Jim
Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

[dkbwarrior]

VW, to say that God does not cause sickness is to ignore a large portion of scripture that says that He does.


Does God cause illness?


Exodus 4.
11 So the LORD said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the LORD?

Lev. 26.
14 ‘But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, 15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant, 16 I also will do this to you: I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart.

Deut. 28.
20 The LORD will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. 21 The LORD will make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish . . . 27 The LORD will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed . . . 59 Then the LORD will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues—great and prolonged plagues—and serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the LORD bring upon you until you are destroyed.

Deut 32.
39 ‘Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

2 Sam 12.
15 Then Nathan departed to his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became ill. 16 David therefore pleaded with God for the child, and David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground . . . 19 When David saw that his servants were whispering, David perceived that the child was dead. Therefore David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” And they said, “He is dead.”


2 Kings 15.
5 Then the LORD struck the king, so that he was a leper until the day of his death; so he dwelt in an isolated house. And Jotham the king’s son was over the royal house, judging the people of the land.

2 Chron 7.
13 When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people.


2 Chron 21.
14 Behold, the LORD will strike your people with a serious affliction—your children, your wives, and all your possessions; 15 and you will become very sick with a disease of your intestines, until your intestines come out by reason of the sickness, day by day.


Psalm 38.
3 There is no soundness in my flesh Because of Your anger, Nor any health in my bones.

Isaiah 19.
22 And the LORD will strike Egypt, He will strike and heal it; they will return to the LORD, and He will be entreated by them and heal them

Ezekiel 24.
15 Also the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 16 “Son of man, behold, I take away from you the desire of your eyes with one stroke; yet you shall neither mourn nor weep, nor shall your tears run down. 17 Sigh in silence, make no mourning for the dead; bind your turban on your head, and put your sandals on your feet; do not cover your lips, and do not eat man’s bread of sorrow.” 18 So I spoke to the people in the morning, and at evening my wife died;and the next morning I did as I was commanded.

Micah 6.
13 Therefore I will also make you sick by striking you, By making you desolate because of your sins.

Luke 1.
19 And the angel answered and said to him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings. 20 But behold, you will be mute and not able to speak until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words which will be fulfilled in their own time.”

1 Cor 11.
29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

Malachi 3.6
For I am the LORD, I change not.


~Jim

Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw



Those all are interesting scriptures Jim. You make good points. You have posted them before, and they make for good reading.

But the problem here is that they all need to be interpreted through the lense of Jesus Christ.

There is alot of scripture in the Bible, but it does not stand on its own, it has to be interpreted through the life and ministry of God on earth, the Word made flesh, our Lord Jesus the annointed one. He is the image of God.

Jesus said this:

31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
-Matthew 5:31-45

Jesus corrected our interpretation of these things. He showed us that God does not bring evil on us. I am satisfied why things were sometimes written this way in the scriptures, but my interpretation of the reason is not neccessary for one to understand that the interpretation that you have assigned them is wrong.

For the record though, I believe that the scriptures often say that God is responsible for evil, because He is ultimately responsible for creating, in the beginning, the spiritual laws that require consequences for sin. That is, the law of sowing and reaping.

Therefore, while one can find scriptures that say that God is responsible for evil, He is only responsible in the indirect sense that He created the rules that bring about consequences. Not in the direct sense that He is manipulating blessings and curses based on some unknowable arbitrary scale of distribution for ones greater good.

This must be true, because the same Bible that says that God created evil, says this:

13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
-James 1:13

Both cant be true. And Jesus came to show us which is the true image of the Father. And I can gaurantee you that it is not the image that you are trying to paint by these scriptures.

Peace...

[victoryword]

I have actually argued with my fellow WoFers about the fact that the Bible states clearly that God at times have inflicted sickness. I agree with the Non-WoFers in that respect because even the New Testament makes a case for this. The Ascended Christ Himself even threatened someone with sickness if they did not repent (see Rev. 2-3).

However, I would challenge any non-wofer to show me one Scripture where God inflicted any of His children with sickness as a blessing rather than as a punishment for sin. I would bet my next three months rent that a person could not find any passage like that in the Bible.

[dkbwarrior]

I have actually argued with my fellow WoFers about the fact that the Bible states clearly that God at times have inflicted sickness. I agree with the Non-WoFers in that respect because even the New Testament makes a case for this. The Ascended Christ Himself even threatened someone with sickness if they did not repent (see Rev. 2-3).

However, I would challenge any non-wofer to show me one Scripture where God inflicted any of His children with sickness as a blessing rather than as a punishment for sin. I would bet my next three months rent that a person could not find any passage like that in the Bible.

Yes, I know.

In fact it was the only thing I could find on your site that I disagreed with. However, I am the first to admit that we do not have all revelation, nor all knowledge. I have a long way to go. I may yet find you to be correct in this respect, or not...

There are a couple of scriptures that I currently have on the shelf, that don't quite fit into the theological model that I currently hold to. They may well fall into place with more revelation, as these things tend to do, or I may have to change my theological model to accomodate them. God will reveal it to me in time, for sure.

Peace...

[victoryword]

Yes, I know.

In fact it was the only thing I could find on your site that I disagreed with. However, I am the first to admit that we do not have all revelation, nor all knowledge. I have a long way to go. I may yet find you to be correct in this respect, or not...

There are a couple of scriptures that I currently have on the shelf, that don't quite fit into the theological model that I currently hold to. They may well fall into place with more revelation, as these things tend to do, or I may have to change my theological model to accomodate them. God will reveal it to me in time, for sure.

Peace...

Believe me DBK, I spent a long time trying to find a way to reinterpret those passages. I wanted them to so badly say that God only "allowed/permitted" the sickness or that "He lifted His umbrella of protection." In a number of cases that is actually true. I have found some Hebrew scholars who affirm that a lot of things in the Old Testament was written in a "permissive" sense (see my latest books "God's Word: Devil Destruction Power" and my latest edition of "Divine Healing: Guaranteed" at lulu.com). Unfortunately I could not find this to be true in every case, especially when God clearly takes credit for the affliction.

But still, I would challenge any non-wofer to find any passage where God ever inflicted sickness as a blessing, denied healing to anyone who repented, or anyone who ever came to Him in faith.

[JimfromOhio]

No, man does not get credit for faith, it is a gift from God, and it is contained in Gods Word.

Man does get credit for what Jesus did on the cross, by making the choice to receive it by faith.

If faith is a work, as you seem to imply, then that would mean that we are saved by works. Because it is only by grace through faith that we are saved.

God didn't decide to save some, and decide to send some to hell. God decided that He wanted all men to be saved. But we make the choice to accept it or reject it, to believe it or not.

You can call that works all you want, but you are wrong. It is faith, not works. Paul very clearly tells us that faith is not a work:

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
-Romans 4:3-5

You are making the same interpretive mistake here that you are making consistenly throughout these discussions. Just because JimFromOhio thinks that faith is a work, does not make it truth. What is truth is what God says is a work.

Frankly, your interpretaion of words means nothing. That is why the scriptures are not of any private interpretation. Because we use words differently than God, and words change meaning over time.

You have to deduce the biblical meaning of a word, then apply it in your interpretation. And according to the Bible, faith is not a work.

Peace...
Regarding Faith as a Gift, in Ephesians 2:8, how do you explain "through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" ?

[JimfromOhio]

I have actually argued with my fellow WoFers about the fact that the Bible states clearly that God at times have inflicted sickness. I agree with the Non-WoFers in that respect because even the New Testament makes a case for this. The Ascended Christ Himself even threatened someone with sickness if they did not repent (see Rev. 2-3).

However, I would challenge any non-wofer to show me one Scripture where God inflicted any of His children with sickness as a blessing rather than as a punishment for sin. I would bet my next three months rent that a person could not find any passage like that in the Bible.
Regarding Illness: It can go BOTH ways

1. Glorfy God as in John 9:2-3, Jesus and His disciples encountered a blind man. “His disciples asked Him, ‘Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?’ ‘Neither this man nor his parents sinned,’ said Jesus, ‘but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.' Also read book of Job.

2. God allows Satan attempts to tempt us and trials to bring out the WORST in us (see: James 1:13-14). God wants to conform us to the image of Christ that He brings a purposeful discipline into our lives, He brings training into our lives through difficulty. There are many people who never see past the pain because they’re self-absorbed, they’re self-centered, they’re caught up in their own comfort.

[victoryword]

JimBeux

I never said that God has never caused sickness. But let me say here that if you checked some of the passages you cite, you will find that God is not saying that He is the cause of certain things. For example, in Exodus 4, God is not saying that he arbitrarily makes people deaf, mute, etc. He is simply saying that he creates all people regardless of their malady and that he is able to overcome whatever maldy they suffer (ie., Moses speech problem).

The other passages you cite are nothing more than God inflicting punishment for sin. So if JimfromOhio's sickness is from God, then that simply means, based on the passages you reference, that God is punishing him and not blessing him. Therefore, JimfromOhio may need to repent.

[victoryword]

Regarding Illness: It can go BOTH ways

1. Glorfy God as in John 9:2-3, Jesus and His disciples encountered a blind man. “His disciples asked Him, ‘Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?’ ‘Neither this man nor his parents sinned,’ said Jesus, ‘but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.' Also read book of Job.

2. God allows Satan attempts to tempt us and trials to bring out the WORST in us (see: James 1:13-14). God wants to conform us to the image of Christ that He brings a purposeful discipline into our lives, He brings training into our lives through difficulty. There are many people who never see past the pain because they’re self-absorbed, they’re self-centered, they’re caught up in their own comfort.

I have read Job and I have read John 9 and I know that you are misinterpretting them both based on a whacked theological perspective. But I won't waste time showing you how. Later.

[JimfromOhio]

I have read Job and I have read John 9 and I know that you are misinterpretting them both based on a whacked theological perspective. But I won't waste time showing you how. Later.

I know superficial flesh often confuses what God really meant. Thinking logically is a tough thing to do because it works against our human and horizontal perspective on suffering and healing. I am clearly against faith teachings that teaches that a God who actually hears our prayers and wants to answer them by telling us of the desire of God to heal people of their physical infirmities when often goes unanswered for many Christians.

If find that WOF's definition on healing when Christians have died in the past 2,000 years without being healed. Their responses with "reasons" why are very wacky themselves. ;)

The outcome is not based on how strong our "faith" are or our "will" but rather acceoting what God's will for our lives. For the person who does not experience healing, Biblically, God will grant the strength to endure hardship. He will grant spiritual wisdom. God's purpose in redemption was not to make people’s lives happy, healthy and free of trouble; His purpose was to rescue them from sin then conform them from the inside out to the image of His Son by the power of His Spirit. Disability allows the life of Christ to be manifested to others through the flesh. God builds strength, virtue, compassion, faith and sacrificial love into His children “to become conformed to the image of His son.” (Romans 8:29)

[probinson]

Wow! Only 25 posts, and we've almost covered all of the points already!

:thumbsup:

[Jimbeaux]

What reason can you give for your conclusion that a thorn refers to an ailment, a sickness?

Elsewhere in the Bible, the word "thorn" was used to refer to the negative influence on, or persecution of, God's people by ungodly folks.
It is never used elsewhere in the Bible to refer to sickness.


"But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live."

Numbers 33:55

"the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations before you. Instead, they will become snares and traps for you, whips on your backs and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land, which the LORD your God has given you."

Joshua 23:13

"The angel of the LORD went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land that I swore to give to your forefathers. I said, 'I will never break my covenant with you, and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.' Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this?
Now therefore I tell you that I will not drive them out before you; they will be thorns in your sides and their gods will be a snare to you.

Judges 2:1-3


Well Paul called it an “infirmity” four times in the passage. Count them yourself here:
30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.
. . .
1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. (2 Cor. 11.30-12.10)
What is an “infirmty"? Well, let’s turn to a favorite PHIA/WOF proof text and see what it says:
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, “Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses.” (Matt. 6.17)
And while you are at it look at how the word “infirmity” is used in each of its occurrences in the New Testament HERE (http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=infirm&version1=50&searchtype=all&bookset=2).

Looks like Paul was talking about his illnesses when he was talking about that “thorn in the flesh.” I mean, if I accept the Bible’s use of the word “infirmity.”

And it was a spirit, LIMB, a SPIRIT OF INFIRMITY, like the one mentioned HERE (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2013:11-12;&version=50;).

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[dkbwarrior]

Well Paul called it an “infirmity” four times in the passage. Count them yourself here:
30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.
. . .
1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. (2 Cor. 11.30-12.10)
What is an “infirmty"? Well, let’s turn to a favorite PHIA/WOF proof text and see what it says:
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, “Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses.” (Matt. 6.17)
And while you are at it look at how the word “infirmity” is used in each of its occurrences in the New Testament HERE (http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=infirm&version1=50&searchtype=all&bookset=2).

Looks like Paul was talking about his illnesses when he was talking about that “thorn in the flesh.” I mean, if I accept the Bible’s use of the word “infirmity.”

And it was a spirit, LIMB, a SPIRIT OF INFIRMITY, like the one mentioned HERE (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2013:11-12;&version=50;).


The word infirmity has more than one meaning, as do most words in english, and greek. While it is true that one of the meanings of infirmity is sickness, this is not its only meaning.

8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
-2 Corinthians 9:8-10

There is no need for you to try to interpret what Paul means by these infirmities, reproaches, necessities, persecutions and distresses; Paul tells us exactly what these infirmities are, what he glories in.

18Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
19For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
23Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
30If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
-2 Corinthians 11:18-20, 23-25, 30

Please note that none of these infirmities that Paul gloried in involved sickness. In fact they were all direct persecution, or the indirect result of preaching in hostile areas.

Satan had assigned an angel to follow Paul around and stir up persecution to withstand the gospel. This is what Paul asked God to remove from him, and what God said he had enough grace to withstand.

Plenty of WOF missionaries (as well as faithful missionaries from nearly every christian denomination) have laid aside their priviledges in their home countries to willingly place themselves into situations like this, believing God to use them to bring the gospel to other cultures and people.

But we don't have to do it sick.

Peace...

[PETE_]

The Bible guarantees there is one disease that all will suffer from and no one will be cured in this life. No amout of faith will cause God's Word to be errant

[The Lord is my banner]

The Bible guarantees there is one disease that all will suffer from and no one will be cured in this life. No amout of faith will cause God's Word to be errant

I assume you are refering to death, but I don't see that as a disease, since it's perfectly possible to die without disease having led to it.

In any case not all will die! There will be an entire generation soon who never die! Maybe even us!!! :clap:

[Jimbeaux]

The word infirmity has more than one meaning, as do most words in english, and greek. While it is true that one of the meanings of infirmity is sickness, this is not its only meaning.

8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
-2 Corinthians 9:8-10

There is no need for you to try to interpret what Paul means by these infirmities, reproaches, necessities, persecutions and distresses; Paul tells us exactly what these infirmities are, what he glories in.

18Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
19For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
23Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
30If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
-2 Corinthians 11:18-20, 23-25, 30

Please note that none of these infirmities that Paul gloried in involved sickness. In fact they were all direct persecution, or the indirect result of preaching in hostile areas.

Satan had assigned an angel to follow Paul around and stir up persecution to withstand the gospel. This is what Paul asked God to remove from him, and what God said he had enough grace to withstand.

Plenty of WOF missionaries (as well as faithful missionaries from nearly every christian denomination) have laid aside their priviledges in their home countries to willingly place themselves into situations like this, believing God to use them to bring the gospel to other cultures and people.

But we don't have to do it sick.

Peace...

That’s a bit of a stretch, DK, but I've heard it before--even believed it--but I realized that I was not approaching the scripture with integrity. So I changed what I wrongly believed and stopped changing scripture to fit what I wanted to believe.

But if you must believe that sickness is not suffering and infirmities are not illnesses and that Paul's "angel" was not a spirit of infirmity and it is more in God’s will for a Christian to be fed to lions than to suffer a migraine because a good Father would not allow His child to have a headache, then more power to you and your doctrine. You’ll need it the next time you come down with the flu and have to call the doctor for a prescription.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Jimbeaux]

The Bible guarantees there is one disease that all will suffer from and no one will be cured in this life. No amout of faith will cause God's Word to be errant

I have always said that there is one disease from which none of us will be healed and which is 100% terminal.

Aging.

And all the other maladies it brings—loss of vision, loss of strength, loss of hair, loss of teeth, loss of hearing … and eventually, loss of life.

And there is no cure for it and every person, no matter what you faith group believes, suffers from it and from all the irreversible physical symptoms it brings. You will need reading glasses (many of you who claim guaranteed healing already do), you will no longer be able to bench press 200 pound, you will no longer be able to run a mile in five minutes, you will no longer be able to stay awake past midnight, you will find yourself cupping your ear and saying “eh?” when people ask you a question.

That’s a guarantee.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[dkbwarrior]

That’s a bit of a stretch, DK, but I've heard it before--even believed it--but I realized that I was not approaching the scripture with integrity. So I changed what I wrongly believed and stopped changing scripture to fit what I wanted to believe.

But if you must believe that sickness is not suffering and infirmities are not illnesses and that Paul's "angel" was not a spirit of infirmity and it is more in God’s will for a Christian to be fed to lions than to suffer a migraine because a good Father would not allow His child to have a headache, then more power to you and your doctrine. You’ll need it the next time you come down with the flu and have to call the doctor for a prescription.


Okay. You can believe what you want Jim. But your belief is just that, your belief. We know what Pauls infirmities were, becuase he told us. No need to search through the bible and find other places that are not contextually relevant, in order to string together a theology. Paul told us in the same section, in context, what he considered to be these infirmities that he glories in. And they were not sickness.

As far as doctors go, they don't bother me at all. WOF has matured a bit beyond those days Jim. I go to a doctor whenever I have symptoms, because I know that my faith is not perfected, and God is able to use the doctor to heal also.

I do wonder though, if you really believe that God not healing you instantly in response to prayer proves that Gods will is for you to remain sick, why would you go to a doctor? Wouldn't that put you in opposition to what you believe is the revealed will of God?

Peace...

[dkbwarrior]

I have always said that there is one disease from which none of us will be healed and which is 100% terminal.

Aging.

And all the other maladies it brings—loss of vision, loss of strength, loss of hair, loss of teeth, loss of hearing … and eventually, loss of life.

And there is no cure for it and every person, no matter what you faith group believes, suffers from it and from all the irreversible physical symptoms it brings. You will need reading glasses (many of you who claim guaranteed healing already do), you will no longer be able to bench press 200 pound, you will no longer be able to run a mile in five minutes, you will no longer be able to stay awake past midnight, you will find yourself cupping your ear and saying “eh?” when people ask you a question.

That’s a guarantee.


Although I understand what you are saying, I disagree here also. There is a generation that will not see death.

And it will be the generation that comes into the "...unity of the faith, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." You see, Christ has been seated at the right hand of the Father "....until His enemies be made his footstool." And "..the last enemy to be defeated is death."

I'm with LIMB on this one.

Peace...

[Jimbeaux]

Although I understand what you are saying, I disagree here also. There is a generation that will not see death.

And it will be the generation that comes into the "...unity of the faith, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." You see, Christ has been seated at the right hand of the Father "....until His enemies be made his footstool." And "..the last enemy to be defeated is death."

I'm with LIMB on this one.

Peace...

And we probably disagree on our eschatology, too.


Oh, well ...

But that’s another thread.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[PETE_]

I have always said that there is one disease from which none of us will be healed and which is 100% terminal.

Aging.

And all the other maladies it brings—loss of vision, loss of strength, loss of hair, loss of teeth, loss of hearing … and eventually, loss of life.

And there is no cure for it and every person, no matter what you faith group believes, suffers from it and from all the irreversible physical symptoms it brings. You will need reading glasses (many of you who claim guaranteed healing already do), you will no longer be able to bench press 200 pound, you will no longer be able to run a mile in five minutes, you will no longer be able to stay awake past midnight, you will find yourself cupping your ear and saying “eh?” when people ask you a question.

That’s a guarantee.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.



~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain


Exactly, some diseases are worse than others and some kill you more slowly than others.

Birth is Terminal

[The Lord is my banner]

Death is not a disease!

[PETE_]

Death is not a disease!
Correct, death is not a disease, but aging is

Aging is a disease that starts at age 25 without any warning sign. This is the beginning of the sub-clinical phase of the disease and will last about 10 years. There are no outward signs or symptoms, but inside the cell, free radical damage has already begun. All regular laboratory tests are "normal". Our current diagnostic equipment and laboratory test is not sensitive enough to measure intracellular changes of age related degenerative disease.

By age 35, a good portion of our cellular protein has been damaged by oxidative stress of pollution, stress, and poor food habits. Significant mutational changes are already well entrenched that eventually may leads to cancer and other degenerative diseases. Symptoms such as glucose intolerance, hypertension, and digestive function imbalance begins to surface as the body starts to de-compensate. These symptoms reflect a body that is in the transitional phase of aging that will last 10 years from age 35 to 45 . Often the laboratory values are "borderline". In reality, the body is entering the transitional phase of the aging process that will last 10 years. Some people will have outward signs and symptoms of age related diseases, while other do not.

By age 45, most people have a variety of outward symptoms commonly accepted as the natural consequence of the aging progress, such as memory lost, decreased energy, hair loss, wrinkles. Laboratory values are now "abnormal", It is not uncommon that clinically active degenerative disease such as heart attack, diabetes, and cancer surface by this time. The body is now entering the clinical phase of aging. A proactive approach must be taken, although it may be late.

By age 55, very few can escape a body free from cancer, artherosclerosis, diabetes, or a http://lammd.com/pictures/animation/old_man_in_wheel_chair.gifcombination of the above that account for 80 percent of age related degenerative diseases. Most people are on some form of drugs for symptomatic treatment of degenerative disease like osteoarthritis, Parkinson's Disease, and Diabetes. Many are shocked why there had been little to no "warning" signs, and a desperate attempt is now made to launch a salvage operation designed to rescue the body from a lifetime of damage.

Aging as a disease can be treated if started early, but it is never too late.
http://lammd.com/opinion/whatisaging.cfm

[The Lord is my banner]

Although ageing can cause certain problems, and many diseases are more likely as we get older, ageing itself is NOT a disease just because one doctor on the internet thinks it is.

[JimfromOhio]

Correct, death is not a disease, but aging is

Aging is a disease thatstarts at age 25 without any warning sign. This is the beginning of the sub-clinical phase of the disease and will last about 10 years.There are no outward signs or symptoms, but inside the cell, free radical damage has already begun. All regular laboratory tests are "normal". Our current diagnostic equipment and laboratory test is not sensitive enough to measure intracellular changes of age related degenerative disease.

By age 35, a good portion of our cellular protein has been damaged by oxidative stress of pollution, stress, and poor food habits. Significant mutational changes are already well entrenched that eventually may leads to cancer and other degenerative diseases. Symptoms such as glucose intolerance, hypertension, and digestive function imbalance begins to surface as the body starts to de-compensate. These symptoms reflect a body that is in the transitional phase of aging that will last 10 years from age 35 to 45 . Often the laboratory values are "borderline". In reality, the body is entering the transitional phase of the aging process that will last 10 years. Some people will have outward signs and symptoms of age related diseases, while other do not.

By age 45, most people have a variety of outward symptoms commonly accepted as the natural consequence of the aging progress, such as memory lost, decreased energy, hair loss, wrinkles. Laboratory values are now "abnormal", It is not uncommon that clinically active degenerative disease such as heart attack, diabetes, and cancer surface by this time. The body is now entering the clinical phase of aging. A proactive approach must be taken, although it may be late.

By age 55, very few can escape a body free from cancer, artherosclerosis, diabetes, or a http://lammd.com/pictures/animation/old_man_in_wheel_chair.gifcombination of the above that account for 80 percent of age related degenerative diseases. Most people are on some form of drugs for symptomatic treatment of degenerative disease like osteoarthritis, Parkinson's Disease, and Diabetes. Many are shocked why there had been little to no "warning" signs, and a desperate attempt is now made to launch a salvage operation designed to rescue the body from a lifetime of damage.

Aging as a disease can be treated if started early, but it is never too late.
http://lammd.com/opinion/whatisaging.cfm (http://lammd.com/opinion/whatisaging.cfm)

Yep.. aging is a disease that leads to DEATH. Death is not a disease itself but DEATH. When we have Jesus Christ in our lives, we no longer spiritually dead but spiritually alive even though our physical body will continue to decay and will die someday.

Psalm 49:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=49&verse=12&version=65&context=verse)
We aren't immortal. We don't last long. Like our dogs, we age and weaken. And die.

Psalm 49:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=49&verse=20&version=65&context=verse)
We aren't immortal. We don't last long. Like our dogs, we age and weaken. And die.

2 Corinthians 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=4&verse=16&version=49&context=verse)
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. (NAS)

For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. (KJV)

Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. (NKJV)

Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. (NIV)

18So we're not giving up. How could we! Even though on the outside it often looks like things are falling apart on us, on the inside, where God is making new life, not a day goes by without his unfolding grace. These hard times are small potatoes compared to the coming good times, the lavish celebration prepared for us. There's far more here than meets the eye. The things we see now are here today, gone tomorrow. But the things we can't see now will last forever. (The Message)

So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. (ESV)

Isaiah 40:30 (ESV)
Even youths shall faint and be weary,
and young men shall fall exhausted.

[Jimbeaux]

Yep.. aging is a disease that leads to DEATH. Death is not a disease itself but DEATH. When we have Jesus Christ in our lives, we no longer spiritually dead but spiritually alive even though our physical body will continue to decay and will die someday.

Psalm 49:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=49&verse=12&version=65&context=verse)
We aren't immortal. We don't last long. Like our dogs, we age and weaken. And die.

Psalm 49:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=49&verse=20&version=65&context=verse)
We aren't immortal. We don't last long. Like our dogs, we age and weaken. And die.

2 Corinthians 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=4&verse=16&version=49&context=verse)
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. (NAS)

For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. (KJV)

Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. (NKJV)

Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. (NIV)

18So we're not giving up. How could we! Even though on the outside it often looks like things are falling apart on us, on the inside, where God is making new life, not a day goes by without his unfolding grace. These hard times are small potatoes compared to the coming good times, the lavish celebration prepared for us. There's far more here than meets the eye. The things we see now are here today, gone tomorrow. But the things we can't see now will last forever. (The Message)

So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. (ESV)

Isaiah 40:30 (ESV)
Even youths shall faint and be weary,
and young men shall fall exhausted.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[The Lord is my banner]

You missed a bit off that last verse Jim, in fact it's sandwiched nicely between two wonderful promises...

29 He gives strength to the weary and increases the power of the weak.



31 but those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.

[Jimbeaux]

Sounds like Isaiah gives both sides of the picture not just the serendipity side.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[dkbwarrior]

Well, on the one hand, I guess aging is a result of the fall, and could be considered a disease. But then Jesus aged, and we do not consider Him to have been diseased do we? I don't know. This was discussed a few months back, and I am still as unsure about it today, as I was then. The Bible doesn't actually describe aging as a disease anyplace that I can think of.

However, I do think this, that trying to say aging is a disease in order to prove that God does not heal everyone is, well, I guess that just goes to show the lengths that we will go to in order to make the promise of God of no profit to us and to those whom we can instill with our unbelief.

I mean, if you do not wish to believe God, fine, but why take others with you?

Peace...

[didaskalos]

What does aging have to do with the death of a 6 month old?
You guys are mixing apples and oranges.
Death is a graduation.. not a curse.
Every mature believe I have ever met invites death.. even looking forward to it.
I know I do. And not everyone dies of some disease. My godly grandmother died at the ripe old age of 96. She died in her sleep with no sickness or malaldy.
Some of us just choose to go on.
But using death as a justification for sickness is like using starvation to justify hunger. That is just illogical.

[JimfromOhio]

Sounds like Isaiah gives both sides of the picture not just the serendipity side.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain




I agree, Often "it's sandwiched nicely between two wonderful promises" because there are two sides of the promises.

Even through we live in a very sinful world, as Peter wrote in 2 Peter 1:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=1&verse=4&version=31&context=verse) Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. The bad events are circumscribed by a loving providence and God promises to use them all for His ultimate good for HIS GLORY. Faith rests not primarily upon God's promises but rather on God's Character. Spiritual faith keeps our hearts open to whatever is of God, and rejects everything that is NOT of God, not matter how wonderful they offer to us in temporal sense.

[JimfromOhio]

What does aging have to do with the death of a 6 month old?
You guys are mixing apples and oranges.
Death is a graduation.. not a curse.
Every mature believe I have ever met invites death.. even looking forward to it.
I know I do. And not everyone dies of some disease. My godly grandmother died at the ripe old age of 96. She died in her sleep with no sickness or malaldy.
Some of us just choose to go on.
But using death as a justification for sickness is like using starvation to justify hunger. That is just illogical.

Aging is a DISEASE called decaying of the body. :doh:

My grandmother died at age 97 due to organs failure in her body. Organ failure is a disease that leads to DEATH. Sin causes diseases that leads to deaths.

Romans 5:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=5&verse=12&version=31&context=verse)
[ Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ ] Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—

Romans 7:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=7&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.

2 Corinthians 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=4&verse=12&version=31&context=verse)
So then, (physcial) death is at work in us, but (eternal) life is at work in you.

By the way, I always believed that many infants, dying in infancy, including those who are mentally disabled are regenerated by the Holy Spirit who died before they able to understand God's grace. God constantly intervenes in our lives through His Providence including salvation.

[Jimbeaux]

What does aging have to do with the death of a 6 month old?
You guys are mixing apples and oranges.
Death is a graduation.. not a curse.
Every mature believe I have ever met invites death.. even looking forward to it.
I know I do. And not everyone dies of some disease. My godly grandmother died at the ripe old age of 96. She died in her sleep with no sickness or malaldy.
Some of us just choose to go on.
But using death as a justification for sickness is like using starvation to justify hunger. That is just illogical.

We start aging the moment the sperm or ovum begins, don’t we? I mean, we start dying (become mortal, the Bible calls it) the instant life begins. It is a sobering truth, but a truth all the same.

Death is a graduation for believers, I agree, but only for believers and I am not looking forward to the dying process when it finally looms close. I do not know how I will die and I am a little anxious about the dying (not the death) part of it.

My mother, a wonderful Christian/Pentecostal woman was not as fortunate as your grandmother. She died at 81 after lingering for several years with pulmonary fibrosis. P/C’s prayed for her continuously. She was the kind of woman who could not imagine heaven being any better than being with her family and dreaded the separation … up until the last few months. She had suffered long and was finally more ready to go than to stay with the family she loved. Her values changed completely. At the end her only thought was meeting Jesus face to face.

Would you say that suffering taught her something eternal? I would; you probably would not.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[GreatistheLord]

Hi,

If Jesus was tempted by every possible temptation that is common to man, why didn't he get tested by sickness? I know it sounds implausible, but shouldn't it be just as implausible for God to send us sickness as a trial.

Also the spirit which raised Christ from the dead is at work in our mortal bodies (Rom 8:11) so why would we be any more under this curse.

We all have a time to die, but that doesn't mean that God needs the help of the curse to do it.

[Jimbeaux]

Hi,

If Jesus was tempted by every possible temptation that is common to man, why didn't he get tested by sickness? I know it sounds implausible, but shouldn't it be just as implausible for God to send us sickness as a trial.

Also the spirit which raised Christ from the dead is at work in our mortal bodies (Rom 8:11) so why would we be any more under this curse.

We all have a time to die, but that doesn't mean that God needs the help of the curse to do it.

It is an assumption based on an erroneous theology that Jesus never got sick. Why wouldn’t He if He were, in fact, tested in all points like we are? In fact, the scripture you alluded to, Hebrews 4.15, says as much—For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (For the New Testmanet use of the word of “infirmity”, see here (http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=infirm&version1=50&searchtype=all&bookset=2)).

How could Christ ever “understand,” “be touched with the feelings” of our infirmities, if He never had to endure infirmity Himself (which, BTW, Hebrews 4.15 plainly tells us He did)?

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Balance]

It is an assumption based on an erroneous theology that Jesus never got sick.



Beyond the human assumptions about the word infirmity that you have already used -

So you have a correct theological stance that Jesus was ever sick?

Because the evidence you've already presented is neither clear, nor is it good theology and can be viewed as bordering on a false teaching that's out there, which I'll not mention.

Because if what you just presented is good theology, then my Masters in it means nothing.

[The Lord is my banner]

Jesus took our sickness on the cross, so He did experience the effects of sickness there and only there, yet during His time on earth, as far as we can tell, He was walking around for 33 years 100% healthy. Otherwise surely we'd have a record of people ministering to Him, making Him chicken soup, gathering to pray!!! OK, well, you get the picture. How could the Lord who is the Healer not be whole?

[JimfromOhio]

On the Cross, Jesus did actually got sick, His organs were failing and then He died.

[Balance]

On the Cross, Jesus did actually got sick, His organs were failing and then He died.

Organ failure while being murdered is not a sickness -

[The Lord is my banner]

Organ failure while being murdered is not a sickness -




I agree, but that isn't what I was saying. I think Jesus carried our sicknesses on the cross, therefore He may well have experienced symptoms at that time.

I have said it three times on this thread now, maybe it's so far out nobody's talking to me!

[JimfromOhio]

Organ failure while being murdered is not a sickness -



God the Father knew Jesus was going to die. Jesus Himself knew He was going to die. Satan tried to have Peter try to keep Jesus from the cross but God determined that Jesus is to die on the Cross. In Matthew 16, Peter says, “Lord, don’t you do that! Don’t go to the cross!” and Jesus knew the source and said, “Get thee behind me, Satan.” Satan knew the power of the Cross and the Death Penalty by the Government which was established by God. "The authorities that exist have been established by God" (see Romans 13). How did God know that the Roman Government will use the "Cross" for their death penalty?

According to Peter and Paul, Roman Government had the authority according to God's ordained Government.

This is from PAUL:
Romans 13:3 says: "Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you." Verse 4 says: "if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." Verse 5 says: Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

This is from PETER
1 Peter 2:13-17) Verse 14 says: "submit to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right." Verse 15-16 says: "For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God."

[The Lord is my banner]

Hmm, maybe I accidentally walked into a guys only thread... Can anybody hear me in here??? :P

[map4]

Hmm, maybe I accidentally walked into a guys only thread... Can anybody hear me in here??? :P


yes, I hear you! :wave:

You are doing fine holding your own in this "guys only thread" :thumbsup: :D

[GreatistheLord]

I agree, but that isn't what I was saying. I think Jesus carried our sicknesses on the cross, therefore He may well have experienced symptoms at that time.

I have said it three times on this thread now, maybe it's so far out nobody's talking to me!

I'm not sure that God dumped every sickness on Jesus while He was on the cross, if so, He would have died pretty fast with limbs falling off from leprosy and every car/plane/train accident in history.

I think it was more that He broke the power of sin and death and became the second Adam that was free from the corruption of the curse.

[dkbwarrior]

I agree, but that isn't what I was saying. I think Jesus carried our sicknesses on the cross, therefore He may well have experienced symptoms at that time.

I have said it three times on this thread now, maybe it's so far out nobody's talking to me!

I agree wholeheartedly. Isaiah 53 says that God made him sick.

4Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, And our pains -- he hath carried them, And we -- we have esteemed him plagued, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5And he is pierced for our transgressions, Bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement of our peace on him, And by his bruise there is healing to us.
6All of us like sheep have wandered, Each to his own way we have turned, And Jehovah hath caused to meet on him, The punishment of us all.
7It hath been exacted, and he hath answered, And he openeth not his mouth, As a lamb to the slaughter he is brought, And as a sheep before its shearers is dumb, And he openeth not his mouth.
8By restraint and by judgment he hath been taken, And of his generation who doth meditate, That he hath been cut off from the land of the living? By the transgression of My people he is plagued,
9And it appointeth with the wicked his grave, And with the rich [are] his high places, Because he hath done no violence, Nor [is] deceit in his mouth.
10And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, [I]He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed -- he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of Jehovah in his hand doth prosper.
-Isaiah 53:4-10 (Youngs Literal Translation)

Peace...

[Jimbeaux]

Beyond the human assumptions about the word infirmity that you have already used -

So you have a correct theological stance that Jesus was ever sick?

Because the evidence you've already presented is neither clear, nor is it good theology and can be viewed as bordering on a false teaching that's out there, which I'll not mention.

Because if what you just presented is good theology, then my Masters in it means nothing.


Except for the proof that “infirmity” as it is used in the English NT means sickness … in every instance (SEE HERE (http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=infirm&searchtype=all&version1=50&bookset=2), again), nope, I do not have any other proof. Just the English language and NT. But apparently that is not enough for a guy with a Masters in theology.

I was tempted to ask, “Which Sunday School did you receive your Masters in?” but thought better of it. With all due respect, of course.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[Optimax]

The suffering that IMO scripture tells us we will suffer is that suffering that persecution, resisting sin, trials and temptations.

So, since scripture warns me that these will occur I can overcome them.

What scripture did not warn me about that would require some "suffering" was the Gem's.:P:D

[Jimbeaux]

The suffering that IMO scripture tells us we will suffer is that suffering that persecution, resisting sin, trials and temptations.

So, since scripture warns me that these will occur I can overcome them.

What scripture did not warn me about that would require some "suffering" was the Gem's.:P:D

I hear this from time to time but suffering is suffering is suffering, wheter it be from persecution or illness, is witnessed by the man who came to Jesus and said, “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water” (Matt. 17.15) or the woman with the issue of blood of whom it is said “Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering”(Mark 5.29).

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[catlover]

I posed this question on another forum some months. I think it is an appropriate question here as well. May as well ask it while I still have the forum bug:

Here is a question for WoFers and anti-wofers concerning the questions of God's sovereignty, suffering, sickness, and persecution. The WoF is often criticized by some here for not accepting that God calls us to suffer.

On the contrary, I agree (because the Bible teaches) that we will suffer. The dispute between many wof and anti-wof is NOT whether or not we must suffer, but the nature of what we must suffer. I am a firm believer that the type of afflictions that we are called to suffer is PERSECUTION - and that at the hands of other men. I (and every WoFer that I am aware of) do not believe that we are called to suffer sickness.

Allow me to quote, not from a present day WoFer, but from a well known (though not living) Evangelical whose writings are still respected today. Here is a passage from Andrew Murray's classic book, Divine Healing:
The Lord spoke to the disciples of divers sufferings which they should have to bear, but when He speaks of sickness, it is always as of an evil caused by sin and Satan, and from which we should be delivered. Very solemnly He declared that every disciple of His would have to bear his cross (Matthew 16:24), but He never taught one sick person to resign himself to be sick. Everywhere Jesus healed the sick, everywhere He dealt with healing as one of the graces belonging to the kingdom of heaven. I believe that MUrray speaks my thoughts and though this was written well over 100 years ago, I believe it expresses the current WoF position.

Now here is the question: why do so many anti-wofers believe that God sovereignly brings sickness on people (and only if you were "elected" will you be healed)? Why do people believe that suffering sickness makes one more virtuous? Why do the anti-wof not understand the different types of suffering taught in Scripture and make the distinction between that which we are called to suffer and that which we were never ask to submit to?

Let's discuss this because I think this is probably one of the core disputes between the wofer and the anti-wofer.

If there were verified healings I would state maybe you have a point-but the fact is when some WoF pastors are investigated they are shown to be less than honest Robert Tilton is a perfect example..

[dkbwarrior]

Except for the proof that “infirmity” as it is used in the English NT means sickness … in every instance (SEE HERE (http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=infirm&searchtype=all&version1=50&bookset=2), again), nope, I do not have any other proof. Just the English language and NT.



This is factually incorrect, as I have already stated.

The word infirmity has more than one meaning, as do most words in english, and greek. While it is true that one of the meanings of infirmity is sickness, this is not its only meaning.

8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
-2 Corinthians 9:8-10

There is no need for you to try to interpret what Paul means by these infirmities, reproaches, necessities, persecutions and distresses; Paul tells us exactly what these infirmities are, what he glories in.

18Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
19For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
23Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
30If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
-2 Corinthians 11:18-20, 23-25, 30

Please note that none of these infirmities that Paul gloried in involved sickness. In fact they were all direct persecution, or the indirect result of preaching in hostile areas.

Satan had assigned an angel to follow Paul around and stir up persecution to withstand the gospel. This is what Paul asked God to remove from him, and what God said he had enough grace to withstand.

Plenty of WOF missionaries (as well as faithful missionaries from nearly every christian denomination) have laid aside their priviledges in their home countries to willingly place themselves into situations like this, believing God to use them to bring the gospel to other cultures and people.

But we don't have to do it sick.

Peace...

[Jimbeaux]

This is factually incorrect, as I have already stated.

The word infirmity has more than one meaning, as do most words in english, and greek. While it is true that one of the meanings of infirmity is sickness, this is not its only meaning.

8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
-2 Corinthians 9:8-10

There is no need for you to try to interpret what Paul means by these infirmities, reproaches, necessities, persecutions and distresses; Paul tells us exactly what these infirmities are, what he glories in.

18Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
19For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
23Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
30If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
-2 Corinthians 11:18-20, 23-25, 30

Please note that none of these infirmities that Paul gloried in involved sickness. In fact they were all direct persecution, or the indirect result of preaching in hostile areas.

Satan had assigned an angel to follow Paul around and stir up persecution to withstand the gospel. This is what Paul asked God to remove from him, and what God said he had enough grace to withstand.

Plenty of WOF missionaries (as well as faithful missionaries from nearly every christian denomination) have laid aside their priviledges in their home countries to willingly place themselves into situations like this, believing God to use them to bring the gospel to other cultures and people.

But we don't have to do it sick.

Peace...

Well, you’ve done everything but diagram the sentences for us trying to avoid how the word “infirmity” is used in the NT.
Such a person has an unhealthy desire to quibble over the meaning of words. This stirs up arguments ending in jealousy, division, slander, and evil suspicions. (1 Tim. 6.4)

And with God as your witness, you must warn them not to argue about words. These arguments don't help anyone. In fact, they ruin everyone who listens to them. (2 Tim. 2.14)
~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[JimfromOhio]

Well, you’ve done everything but diagram the sentences for us trying to avoid how the word “infirmity” is used in the NT.
Such a person has an unhealthy desire to quibble over the meaning of words. This stirs up arguments ending in jealousy, division, slander, and evil suspicions. (1 Tim. 6.4)

And with God as your witness, you must warn them not to argue about words. These arguments don't help anyone. In fact, they ruin everyone who listens to them. (2 Tim. 2.14)
~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.


~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



I noticed this as well. I agree. Thanks.

[probinson]

Well, you’ve done everything but diagram the sentences for us trying to avoid how the word “infirmity” is used in the NT. Such a person has an unhealthy desire to quibble over the meaning of words. This stirs up arguments ending in jealousy, division, slander, and evil suspicions. (1 Tim. 6.4)

And with God as your witness, you must warn them not to argue about words. These arguments don't help anyone. In fact, they ruin everyone who listens to them. (2 Tim. 2.14)

So, you're saying that infirmity only has one meaning (despite the fact that we all know it has more than one meaning), and because you can run a search on your preferred translation of scripture for the word infirmity (ironically, one of which says Jesus took our infirmities and bore our sicknesses), you believe you've "proved" something?

And THEN, you use a horribly out of context scripture, which actually states that if people don't accept the words of our Lord, those are the "such [people]" that are quibbling over words.

Allrighty then...

Cue the completely unrelated onslaught of scriptures... ^_^

[Jimbeaux]

So, you're saying that infirmity only has one meaning (despite the fact that we all know it has more than one meaning), and because you can run a search on your preferred translation of scripture for the word infirmity (ironically, one of which says Jesus took our infirmities and bore our sicknesses), you believe you've "proved" something?

And THEN, you use a horribly out of context scripture, which actually states that if people don't accept the words of our Lord, those are the "such [people]" that are quibbling over words.

Allrighty then...

Cue the completely unrelated onslaught of scriptures... ^_^

No, Pete, what I am saying is that the only way the English NT (NKJV) uses the word “infirmity” is as it relates to a sickness or disability. You can search all the synonyms for “infirmity” that you like, but the NT uses the word in only one way.

Sometimes. Pete, I think if I said the sun rises in the east you would find a way to "prove" me wrong.

~Jim
If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

[probinson]

No, Pete, what I am saying is that the only way the English NT (NKJV) uses the word “infirmity” is as it relates to a sickness or disability. You can search all the synonyms for “infirmity” that you like, but the NT uses the word in only one way.

dkbwarrior did an amazing job of disproving that theory above, using plenty of scripture to do so.

So you resorted to saying he was "quibbling over words", instead of actually addressing the content of what he said.

Are you sure that you're not the one that wants to argue about where the sun rises? ;)

[JimfromOhio]

dkbwarrior did an amazing job of disproving that theory above, using plenty of scripture to do so.

So you resorted to saying he was "quibbling over words", instead of actually addressing the content of what he said.

Are you sure that you're not the one that wants to argue about where the sun rises? ;)

Actually,dkbwarriar did a great job changing the real meaning of "infirmities" in terms of what over-all suffering really means biblically. Especially when we talk about GRACE (which people often ignore and only focus on faith). I agree with Jim on this. ;)

Infirmities/Weaknesses: (From Strong's Greek #769) of strength, weakness, infirmity, of the body, its native weakness and frailty, feebleness of health or sickness, of the soul , want of strength and capacity requisite 1b, to understand a thing 1b, to do things great and glorious 1b, to restrain corrupt desires 1b, to bear trials and troubles

In God's grace, I am secured by His peace, by His grace and secured by His eternal hope. My hope in God is never disappointed that I never be ashamed even though my fellow Christians may make me feel ashamed of my sufferings. Word of Faith doctrines never gave me this peace as God's Grace can. Word of Faith do have the "lack of knowledge" of God's Grace to understand in God's perspective of "sufficiency" as Colossians 1:5-6 says "the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth." 1 Timothy 1:14 "The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the