Why wasn't Jesus sent to Adam and Eve's offspring?

[ChavaK]

I saw this question asked in a different forum and am wondering
how Christians answer this?


Why prophet Jesus ( peace be upon him) was not send to the first off spring of Adam and Eve on Earth??? Didn't they deserve to be Christians???

I haven't ever heard this asked before and though it an interesting question...

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I saw this question asked in a different forum and am wondering
how Christians answer this?



I haven't ever heard this asked before and though it an interesting question... Amusing. Yahshua is an ancient being, his name was Peniel, and he has also been called the Messenger of Yahwah.

[LittleLambofJesus]

I saw this question asked in a different forum and am wondering
how Christians answer this?



I haven't ever heard this asked before and though it an interesting question...That "voice" sounds familiar like a Muslim that post on the NCR board. The Koran distorts the Bible so much, I really don't even bother debating them much any more.
Besides, they diss on my bro Paul :)

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=4410009&page=4
Can Muhammad and Paul be buddies ^_^

quote response: Can mohammad and Paul be buddies? Absolutely not!
__________________

[ChavaK]

It is a Muslim asking the question, but there is no distortion of the Bible
in this question.....I think it is asking something straight forward.

How do Christians explain that Jesus did not appear much earlier, say to
Adam and Eve's offspring, than when he did?

[LittleLambofJesus]

It is a Muslim asking the question, but there is no distortion of the Bible
in this question.....I think it is asking something straight forward.

How do Christians explain that Jesus did not appear much earlier, say to
Adam and Eve's offspring, than when he did?The Muslims debunk our NT/NC so it would be no use quoting it to them but as according to John and Paul, Jesus was in the beginning, whether as the Spirit or Elohiym or merged with Him is up for debate of course.

Perhaps the Jews can help me out on this. Thoughts? :wave:

John 1:1 In beginning/arch <746> was the Word, and the Word was toward/near the God, and a-God was the Word

1 Corin 10:4 And all the same drink spiritual they drank, for they drank out of the spiritual following rock, the yet rock was the Christ.

[ChavaK]

The Muslims debunk our NT/NC
I know that, so pretend it is an atheist asking the question.



Perhaps the Jews can help me out on this.

Huh?? :confused:

[LittleLambofJesus]

I know that, so pretend it is an atheist asking the question.




Huh?? :confused:Ooops sorry. Can you do me a favor and look up the tense for this hebrew word "died" in Gene 5:5, as Paul uses it in this tense in 1 Corin 15 and this interlinear shows that word in the same tense in the Hebrew. Just curious. Thanks.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Genesis 5:5 And they are becoming all of days of Adam which he lived, nine of hundreds year and-thirty year and he is dying [1 corin 15:22].

1 Corinthians 15:22 For just as in the Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all shall be being made alive. [Genesis 5:5]

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I know that, so pretend it is an atheist asking the question. The question is a non starter because it is not relevant. Adam and Eve had God to speak to. Besides that Peniel [now called Yahshua] was there also. Yahshua is also known as The Angel of The Lord. {The Messenger of Yahwah}

[Kris10leigh]

I saw this question asked in a different forum and am wondering
how Christians answer this?



I haven't ever heard this asked before and though it an interesting question...
I think the best answer you might get is "I don't know". ;) Good question.

[FaithfulWife]

Chavak~

I'm sorry that people are dancing around and not really answering your question, so let me take a stab at being rather direct. I can't tell which of these two questions you're asking so I'll answer them both--my brief answers in blue:

1) Between the time of Adam and Eve and when Yahoshua arrived in the flesh on the earth there were a LOT of people--really good, godly people! Why weren't they allowed to be Christians?

As I understand it, immediately after Eve ate of the fruit and gave it to Adam, they knew they were naked and had sinned. And almost immediately thereafter HaShem gave Adam his curses for sin--gave Eve her curses for sin--and then laid out the map of salvation right away.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

This was spoken to the serpent who had tempted Eve and was a foretelling that there would be enmity between the serpent/sin and one who would be the offspring of the woman--and that the serpent/sin would get a bite in and wound him, but in the end the offspring of the woman would crush the serpent's head and close the gap of separation between HaShem and sinful humans. Right off the bat, from the moment sin was introduced, HaShem made it clear to Adam and Eve that they were now separated from intimate communion with Him but that He loved them and HE would make a way for them--and gave them a foretelling of it. He also clothed them immediately with animal skins indicating that a blood sacrifice is required. And I also believe it was made clear that the man and the woman could not "earn" it by anything that they did or by following certain laws but rather that is was ALL GOD'S DOING.

Thus, there are godly men and women in the Tanach and they were saved--by faith. Romans 4 (in B'rit Hadasha) tells us that Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness. Well to my understanding that means he was saved! And what did he have faith in? He had faith that HaShem would send His Mashiach and that salvation was through trusting HaShem's work, not our own. From what I can see, there were many, MANY in Tanach who were saved because they had faith in the Mashiach TO COME...and in these days it's the same faith but in the Mashiach WHO HAS COME.

Have I stated that in a way that makes common sense a little?

2) Why did HaShem allow sin to enter the world with Adam and Eve and then wait so long to send Mashiach? Why wait?

You know, this is a good question! I have to honestly tell you that I don't know why HaShem chose to wait or why He would send Yahoshua when He did. To be completely honest the way I have always understood this is just to have some trust and say, "Because He had His reasons which are not clear to me right now." Maybe if He had sent Mashiach as the son of Eve (like Cain and Abel's brother) then it would have changed things such that there would have only been six people on the earth! I don't know! :P Also, I think if He had sent Mashiach immediately, we humans would have missed out some things He wanted to tell us about Himself such as receiving The Law, having the Tanach written, etc. These are all ways we have gradually gotten to know Him better and better, so we would have missed all that!

What I *DO* know and trust in is that often times I don't understand God's timing immediately and then later (hindsight is 20/20) I look back and thank Him that He didn't do it when I asked or thought I needed something... My opinion/guess is that it's something similar here. I don't exactly understand WHY He chose to wait but just rather that He did and for His reasons. Honestly? That's good enough for me.



~Faithful

[Kris10leigh]

Chavak~

I'm sorry that people are dancing around and not really answering your question, so let me take a stab at being rather direct.
Hey, I wasn't being flip. I really didn't know. :wave:

I'm glad you came around to answer it though because as I said, it's a good question. :thumbsup:

[Kris10leigh]

Your post got me thinking.'

My thought is that perhaps God did not send Yeshua earlier for two reasons. One, time is different for God. When compared to an eternal life with no beginning and no end, a human life is a blip. Two, perhaps we humans needed to learn some hard lessons first; things we needed to learn on our own.

But ChavaK, I think perhaps this not a typical Christian teaching. It isn't a question that has ever come up for me before. Thanks for making me think.
Chavak~

I'm sorry that people are dancing around and not really answering your question, so let me take a stab at being rather direct. I can't tell which of these two questions you're asking so I'll answer them both--my brief answers in blue:

1) Between the time of Adam and Eve and when Yahoshua arrived in the flesh on the earth there were a LOT of people--really good, godly people! Why weren't they allowed to be Christians?

As I understand it, immediately after Eve ate of the fruit and gave it to Adam, they knew they were naked and had sinned. And almost immediately thereafter HaShem gave Adam his curses for sin--gave Eve her curses for sin--and then laid out the map of salvation right away.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

This was spoken to the serpent who had tempted Eve and was a foretelling that there would be enmity between the serpent/sin and one who would be the offspring of the woman--and that the serpent/sin would get a bite in and wound him, but in the end the offspring of the woman would crush the serpent's head and close the gap of separation between HaShem and sinful humans. Right off the bat, from the moment sin was introduced, HaShem made it clear to Adam and Eve that they were now separated from intimate communion with Him but that He loved them and HE would make a way for them--and gave them a foretelling of it. He also clothed them immediately with animal skins indicating that a blood sacrifice is required. And I also believe it was made clear that the man and the woman could not "earn" it by anything that they did or by following certain laws but rather that is was ALL GOD'S DOING.

Thus, there are godly men and women in the Tanach and they were saved--by faith. Romans 4 (in B'rit Hadasha) tells us that Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness. Well to my understanding that means he was saved! And what did he have faith in? He had faith that HaShem would send His Mashiach and that salvation was through trusting HaShem's work, not our own. From what I can see, there were many, MANY in Tanach who were saved because they had faith in the Mashiach TO COME...and in these days it's the same faith but in the Mashiach WHO HAS COME.

Have I stated that in a way that makes common sense a little?

2) Why did HaShem allow sin to enter the world with Adam and Eve and then wait so long to send Mashiach? Why wait?

You know, this is a good question! I have to honestly tell you that I don't know why HaShem chose to wait or why He would send Yahoshua when He did. To be completely honest the way I have always understood this is just to have some trust and say, "Because He had His reasons which are not clear to me right now." Maybe if He had sent Mashiach as the son of Eve (like Cain and Abel's brother) then it would have changed things such that there would have only been six people on the earth! I don't know! :P Also, I think if He had sent Mashiach immediately, we humans would have missed out some things He wanted to tell us about Himself such as receiving The Law, having the Tanach written, etc. These are all ways we have gradually gotten to know Him better and better, so we would have missed all that!

What I *DO* know and trust in is that often times I don't understand God's timing immediately and then later (hindsight is 20/20) I look back and thank Him that He didn't do it when I asked or thought I needed something... My opinion/guess is that it's something similar here. I don't exactly understand WHY He chose to wait but just rather that He did and for His reasons. Honestly? That's good enough for me.



~Faithful

[jaihare]

The question is a non starter because it is not relevant. Adam and Eve had God to speak to. Besides that Peniel [now called Yahshua] was there also. Yahshua is also known as The Angel of The Lord. {The Messenger of Yahwah}
And I believe that the JW's believe that Jesus was Michael the Archangel. I wonder what other strange fantasies we can invent and claim to have the truth.

JW's say he was Michael before the "incarnation".
MTAA says he was Peniel.
Traditional Christians say he was God.

Everyone's got their opinions, and none of them is supportable from the Tanakh.

Jason

[HalcyonFire]

That question is the same as why didn't he send the flood right after Adam and Eve and just start over, or why wasn't Abraham or Moses born of Adam and Eve, etc. Why wasn't the sky purple? Why weren't the oceans orange juice...

I do love faithful wife's stab at it though.

Oh. Jason... IYHO... maybe adding that would be better because plenty of people believe it is supported and it's rather subjective and open to interpretation.... so it's not factual to say what you said without qualification.

[insaneinthebrain]

Amusing. Yahshua is an ancient being, his name was Peniel, and he has also been called the Messenger of Yahwah.

Isn't Peniel a location?

[Hazel05]

Its a very good question. I have also wondered how it is acceptable for God to populate the world from only Adam and Eve, meaning Eve's sons would have had to have intercourse with her which is clearly wrong, and Adam would have had intercourse with his daughters again clearly wrong. Seeing as he created Adam and Eve why couldn't he create a few other couples and cut out the incest?

[HalcyonFire]

you're assuming they had no daughters :)

[Hazel05]

Hiya I did write that Adam would of had to have intercourse with his daughters too. Its disgusting.

[HalcyonFire]

why? there's no reason for that either. (not to mention the only reason it's taboo is because of genetic issues and prohibitions in the bible later on)_

[Kris10leigh]

I agree with Hazel. Surely those genetic issues were a problem even for Adam and Eve. And I think it's more likely incest would have been between and brothers and sisters, but still...eww.

[HalcyonFire]

why? genetic problems come from mutations (of which they had none)

[dvd_holc]

I saw this question asked in a different forum and am wondering
how Christians answer this?



I haven't ever heard this asked before and though it an interesting question...The name Cain in Hebrew would give you the impression that they anticipated Cain to be the Messiah; however, in due time, Christ came....which is to say that after Noah, the flood, Abraham, David, exile (in many times and ways), Jesus came....the world was built to a point so that sin would finally be plushed out in its materity and God would undo it...because the whole cosmos was subjected to sin which brought death and now, God's righteousness has been brought through Israel's faithful Messiah to bring restoration out of death.

[ChavaK]

I think the best answer you might get is "I don't know". ;) Good question.

and a good answer! ;)

[ChavaK]

Chavak~

I'm sorry that people are dancing around and not really answering your question, so let me take a stab at being rather direct. I can't tell which of these two questions you're asking so I'll answer them both--my brief answers in blue:

1) Between the time of Adam and Eve and when Yahoshua arrived in the flesh on the earth there were a LOT of people--really good, godly people! Why weren't they allowed to be Christians?

As I understand it, immediately after Eve ate of the fruit and gave it to Adam, they knew they were naked and had sinned. And almost immediately thereafter HaShem gave Adam his curses for sin--gave Eve her curses for sin--and then laid out the map of salvation right away.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

This was spoken to the serpent who had tempted Eve and was a foretelling that there would be enmity between the serpent/sin and one who would be the offspring of the woman--and that the serpent/sin would get a bite in and wound him, but in the end the offspring of the woman would crush the serpent's head and close the gap of separation between HaShem and sinful humans. Right off the bat, from the moment sin was introduced, HaShem made it clear to Adam and Eve that they were now separated from intimate communion with Him but that He loved them and HE would make a way for them--and gave them a foretelling of it. He also clothed them immediately with animal skins indicating that a blood sacrifice is required. And I also believe it was made clear that the man and the woman could not "earn" it by anything that they did or by following certain laws but rather that is was ALL GOD'S DOING.

Thus, there are godly men and women in the Tanach and they were saved--by faith. Romans 4 (in B'rit Hadasha) tells us that Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness. Well to my understanding that means he was saved! And what did he have faith in? He had faith that HaShem would send His Mashiach and that salvation was through trusting HaShem's work, not our own. From what I can see, there were many, MANY in Tanach who were saved because they had faith in the Mashiach TO COME...and in these days it's the same faith but in the Mashiach WHO HAS COME.

Have I stated that in a way that makes common sense a little?

2) Why did HaShem allow sin to enter the world with Adam and Eve and then wait so long to send Mashiach? Why wait?

You know, this is a good question! I have to honestly tell you that I don't know why HaShem chose to wait or why He would send Yahoshua when He did. To be completely honest the way I have always understood this is just to have some trust and say, "Because He had His reasons which are not clear to me right now." Maybe if He had sent Mashiach as the son of Eve (like Cain and Abel's brother) then it would have changed things such that there would have only been six people on the earth! I don't know! :P Also, I think if He had sent Mashiach immediately, we humans would have missed out some things He wanted to tell us about Himself such as receiving The Law, having the Tanach written, etc. These are all ways we have gradually gotten to know Him better and better, so we would have missed all that!

What I *DO* know and trust in is that often times I don't understand God's timing immediately and then later (hindsight is 20/20) I look back and thank Him that He didn't do it when I asked or thought I needed something... My opinion/guess is that it's something similar here. I don't exactly understand WHY He chose to wait but just rather that He did and for His reasons. Honestly? That's good enough for me.



~Faithful

Thank you for taking the time to respond, Faithful!
:wave:

[Qalevra]

The name Cain in Hebrew would give you the impression that they anticipated Cain to be the Messiah;

Say wha? How?

[HalcyonFire]

I was wondering that too since he didn't elucidate.

[dvd_holc]

Taken from Walter C. Kaiser, Jr. The Messiah in the Old Testament (pg 41 and 42):

Some hint of what these early mortals may have understood from this announcement (Gen 3) is evident in Eve's responce after she had given birth to her fist son (Ge 4:1). She named him "Cain" and explained, "I have gotten (the verb sounds like the noun "Cain") a man," adding "even the LORD." That is the way Luther rendered the appositional clause that came at the end of this verse. Such a translation is possible, for there is no word for "help," as most mordern versions generally render it: "with the help of the LORD" (italicized words are not in the Hebrew text). If this suggestion is correct, then Eve understood that the promised male descendant of human descent would be, in some way, divine, "the LORD." If so, then Eve's instincts about the coming Messiah were correct, but her timing was way off!

[jaihare]

Taken from Walter C. Kaiser, Jr. The Messiah in the Old Testament (pg 41 and 42):

Some hint of what these early mortals may have understood from this announcement (Gen 3) is evident in Eve's responce after she had given birth to her fist son (Ge 4:1). She named him "Cain" and explained, "I have gotten (the verb sounds like the noun "Cain") a man," adding "even the LORD." That is the way Luther rendered the appositional clause that came at the end of this verse. Such a translation is possible, for there is no word for "help," as most mordern versions generally render it: "with the help of the LORD" (italicized words are not in the Hebrew text). If this suggestion is correct, then Eve understood that the promised male descendant of human descent would be, in some way, divine, "the LORD." If so, then Eve's instincts about the coming Messiah were correct, but her timing was way off!
Not even. The Hebrew particle את does not mean "even". The word conjunctive vav is used to mean "even" in parallel structures. את means two things. It can either mark a definite direct object (which is the most common use) or it can mean "with". In this case, it means "with".

קניתי איש את ה׳ means literally "I have acquired a man with HaShem", which makes the KJV actually accurate in this regard. No twisting of the verse will produce what you're suggesting.

Jason

[dvd_holc]

thanks for the info jaihare...but I will take published data over web opinion...

[Qalevra]

Being published doesn't make it fact. It's still an opinion. You're choosing the opinion of a non-Hebrew speaker over that of a Hebrew speaker on a matter regarding Hebrew translation.

[dvd_holc]

Actually, you assumed the author is a not a hebrew speaker....

Now, your right...being published does not make it fact. But what do you do? When you obey scripture do you listen to the Talmud? Do you use their opinion? But really is their sayings opinion or authoritive decrees? How then are they authoritive? They have the full training and are recognized as having authority...unlack the average person who speaks up on the internet.

[Qalevra]

Actually, you assumed the author is a not a hebrew speaker....

I am open to being proven wrong, but it doesn't make his assertions any more correct. In fact, I would say that it would be better for his integrity if he didn't know Hebrew than if he did, for if he does, then he should know better.

Now, your right...being published does not make it fact. But what do you do? When you obey scripture do you listen to the Talmud? Do you use their opinion? But really is their sayings opinion or authoritive decrees? How then are they authoritive? They have the full training and are recognized as having authority...unlack the average person who speaks up on the internet.

I'm not sure where you're going with this, since this Talmud reference is out of left field, but how much do you understand about the Talmud and its place in Judaism? Have you studied the Talmud?

[dvd_holc]

"I'm not sure where you're going with this, since this Talmud reference is out of left field, but how much do you understand about the Talmud and its place in Judaism? Have you studied the Talmud?"

If you accept an average person on interperting the bible then how much more those who are ordained? If the average person and the bible scholar disagrees which do you choose?

[Qalevra]

If you accept an average person on interperting the bible then how much more those who are ordained? If the average person and the bible scholar disagrees which do you choose?

Who did the ordaining? What was the process? What was needed to be ordained?

Rabbis are trained in yeshivas and are recognized as authorities on Torah and Talmud. Will you then accept a Rabbi's interpretation of Genesis?

[dvd_holc]

Will you not accept this Christian scholar?

[Qalevra]

Will you not accept this Christian scholar?

No, and since you did not answer me, but rather posed this question, I must assume then that you would not accept a Rabbi's interpretation.

Back to the point at hand, when it comes to discussing matters of Hebrew; if Dr. Kaiser indeed has knowledge of Hebrew, he has precious little advantage over someone like jaihare or myself, who also understand it and have used and do use it on a daily basis. Thus, you can reject our opinion using the shallow premise that we're just two dudes on the internet, but you cannot reject it on the premise that, as a result of us being two guys on the internet, we're any less informed on how to translate and interpret Hebrew.

[dvd_holc]

I did answer you...I answered you with a question, as you have answered me with questions...Now, I, a Christian, use Christian scholars. However, I also use rabbis...which shows your assumption as being flawed (again) and exposes your projection unto me as being worthless. Which one is shallow again?

Accept it or not...your choose...but it has been given to you as a alternative reading.

[ChavaK]

Taken from Walter C. Kaiser, Jr. The Messiah in the Old Testament (pg 41 and 42):

Some hint of what these early mortals may have understood from this announcement (Gen 3) is evident in Eve's responce after she had given birth to her fist son (Ge 4:1). She named him "Cain" and explained, "I have gotten (the verb sounds like the noun "Cain") a man," adding "even the LORD." That is the way Luther rendered the appositional clause that came at the end of this verse. Such a translation is possible, for there is no word for "help," as most mordern versions generally render it: "with the help of the LORD" (italicized words are not in the Hebrew text). If this suggestion is correct, then Eve understood that the promised male descendant of human descent would be, in some way, divine, "the LORD." If so, then Eve's instincts about the coming Messiah were correct, but her timing was way off!
I agree with Jason regarding the Hebrew grammar and translation.

However, let's say it is properly rendered "with the help of the L-rd".
How does this indicate that Chava understood that a male descendent
would be divine?

[Qalevra]

I did answer you...I answered you with a question, as you have answered me with questions...Now, I, a Christian, use Christian scholars. However, I also use rabbis...which shows your assumption as being flawed (again) and exposes your projection unto me as being worthless. Which one is shallow again?

I used the word "assume" because you didn't have the courage to play your hand first. You've changed the wording now from "accept" to "use". You may "use rabbis", but you clearly don't ACCEPT their interpretation.

Accept it or not...your choose...but it has been given to you as a alternative reading.

Yep, I read your citation, and rejected it based on my own knowledge of Hebrew.

[dvd_holc]

Do the rabbis accept Jesus Christ?

[Qalevra]

Do the rabbis accept Jesus Christ?

Oh please. You're just patronising now, especially in light of the fact that you can't refute jaihare's argument, but rather choose to reject it because it doesn't fit within your paradigm.

[dvd_holc]

:) We have been running around in circles simple because we are doing the samething. You do accept Jesus the Rabbi, but I will accept rabbis when they submit to Jesus who has all authority in Heaven and on Earth. I use a Christian scholar giving a Christian interpretation which you reject. Your rejection does not prove or disprove his reading (period)

[Qalevra]

:) We have been running around in circles simple because we are doing the samething. You don't accept Jesus the Rabbi, but I will accept rabbis when they submit to Jesus who has all authority in Heaven and on Earth. I use a Christian scholar giving a Christian interpretation which you reject. Your rejection does not prove or disprove his reading (period)

An athiest Hebrew speaker would come to the same conclusion on that passage as we have.

[dvd_holc]

You can have the last word....and Go:

[jaihare]

thanks for the info jaihare...but I will take published data over web opinion...
This "published data" is opposed to the majority of Bible translators and translation committees, both Jewish and Christian, against the normative structure of the language (I speak Hebrew as a matter of need everyday and read the Bible in Hebrew directly without translation -- thank you very much), and against basic common sense. You can take whatever you want as "truth". I was simply offering you the real sense of the verse. Of course you're free to prefer nonsense of common sense and clear reading. Have it your way.

Jason

[Lulav]

It is a Muslim asking the question, but there is no distortion of the Bible
in this question.....I think it is asking something straight forward.

How do Christians explain that Jesus did not appear much earlier, say to
Adam and Eve's offspring, than when he did? I don't know how Christians explain it, but I know what I believe, He appeared to Adam and Eve

Genesis
3:8They heard the voice of ADONAI, God, walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, so the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of ADONAI, God, among the trees in the garden.

[Lulav]

:thumbsup: Good postChavak~

I'm sorry that people are dancing around and not really answering your question, so let me take a stab at being rather direct. I can't tell which of these two questions you're asking so I'll answer them both--my brief answers in blue:

1) Between the time of Adam and Eve and when Yahoshua arrived in the flesh on the earth there were a LOT of people--really good, godly people! Why weren't they allowed to be Christians?

As I understand it, immediately after Eve ate of the fruit and gave it to Adam, they knew they were naked and had sinned. And almost immediately thereafter HaShem gave Adam his curses for sin--gave Eve her curses for sin--and then laid out the map of salvation right away.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

This was spoken to the serpent who had tempted Eve and was a foretelling that there would be enmity between the serpent/sin and one who would be the offspring of the woman--and that the serpent/sin would get a bite in and wound him, but in the end the offspring of the woman would crush the serpent's head and close the gap of separation between HaShem and sinful humans. Right off the bat, from the moment sin was introduced, HaShem made it clear to Adam and Eve that they were now separated from intimate communion with Him but that He loved them and HE would make a way for them--and gave them a foretelling of it. He also clothed them immediately with animal skins indicating that a blood sacrifice is required. And I also believe it was made clear that the man and the woman could not "earn" it by anything that they did or by following certain laws but rather that is was ALL GOD'S DOING.

Thus, there are godly men and women in the Tanach and they were saved--by faith. Romans 4 (in B'rit Hadasha) tells us that Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness. Well to my understanding that means he was saved! And what did he have faith in? He had faith that HaShem would send His Mashiach and that salvation was through trusting HaShem's work, not our own. From what I can see, there were many, MANY in Tanach who were saved because they had faith in the Mashiach TO COME...and in these days it's the same faith but in the Mashiach WHO HAS COME.

Have I stated that in a way that makes common sense a little?

2) Why did HaShem allow sin to enter the world with Adam and Eve and then wait so long to send Mashiach? Why wait?

You know, this is a good question! I have to honestly tell you that I don't know why HaShem chose to wait or why He would send Yahoshua when He did. To be completely honest the way I have always understood this is just to have some trust and say, "Because He had His reasons which are not clear to me right now." Maybe if He had sent Mashiach as the son of Eve (like Cain and Abel's brother) then it would have changed things such that there would have only been six people on the earth! I don't know! :P Also, I think if He had sent Mashiach immediately, we humans would have missed out some things He wanted to tell us about Himself such as receiving The Law, having the Tanach written, etc. These are all ways we have gradually gotten to know Him better and better, so we would have missed all that!

What I *DO* know and trust in is that often times I don't understand God's timing immediately and then later (hindsight is 20/20) I look back and thank Him that He didn't do it when I asked or thought I needed something... My opinion/guess is that it's something similar here. I don't exactly understand WHY He chose to wait but just rather that He did and for His reasons. Honestly? That's good enough for me.



~Faithful There are four days preparation Between Yom Kippur and Sukkot, and many believe this was when G-d dwelt among us, in the flesh born form of Yeshua. Now we are in the end of that time where we have been waiting 2 days ( 2000 years)

Hoshea 6:1 "Come, let us return to the Lord. He has torn us to pieces but he will heal us; he has injured us but he will bind up our wounds. 2 After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence. 3 Let us acknowledge the Lord; let us press on to acknowledge him. As surely as the sun rises, he will appear; he will come to us like the winter rains, like the spring rains that water the earth."
4 "What can I do with you, Ephraim? What can I do with you, Judah? Your love is like the morning mist, like the early dew that disappears. 5 Therefore I cut you in pieces with my prophets, I killed you with the words of my mouth; my judgments flashed like lightning upon you. 6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

[Lulav]

Taken from Walter C. Kaiser, Jr. The Messiah in the Old Testament (pg 41 and 42):

Some hint of what these early mortals may have understood from this announcement (Gen 3) is evident in Eve's responce after she had given birth to her fist son (Ge 4:1). She named him "Cain" and explained, "I have gotten (the verb sounds like the noun "Cain") a man," adding "even the LORD." That is the way Luther rendered the appositional clause that came at the end of this verse. Such a translation is possible, for there is no word for "help," as most mordern versions generally render it: "with the help of the LORD" (italicized words are not in the Hebrew text). If this suggestion is correct, then Eve understood that the promised male descendant of human descent would be, in some way, divine, "the LORD." If so, then Eve's instincts about the coming Messiah were correct, but her timing was way off!

Disregarding the problem with the translation, Could this be based on her interpretation of the curse given to the serpent in front of her as she was the only woman at the time?

So why don't we examine what was meant by 'from the help of HaShem'

Does this mean she didn't have a problem conceiving Cain and Abel, but needed help with Shem? did she become barren is this a hint at that or something else?

[ShirChadash]

You don't accept Jesus the Rabbi, but I will accept rabbis when they submit to Jesus who has all authority in Heaven and on Earth.
^_^

[dvd_holc]

:doh:

[ShirChadash]

This "published data" is opposed to the majority of Bible translators and translation committees, both Jewish and Christian, against the normative structure of the language (I speak Hebrew as a matter of need everyday and read the Bible in Hebrew directly without translation -- thank you very much), and against basic common sense. You can take whatever you want as "truth". I was simply offering you the real sense of the verse. Of course you're free to prefer nonsense of common sense and clear reading. Have it your way.

Jason:thumbsup:
Reps to Mr. Hebrew