Burned By WOF

[Optimax]

For those who claim to have "been burned by WOF".

Possibilities of why:

1. Sufficient time was not spent with the word to gain understanding of the subject that "burned".

2. Gave up to soon, maybe it was just "too hard".

3. Some relative, friend or other person known failed. Refer to #1.

4. Misunderstood what was being taught. Refer to #1.

5. All other reasons and situations that can, may and will be brought up again. Refer to #1.

The Word never fails.

God never fails.

People do.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

"WoF" bes not "the Word."
It bes HUMANs and HUMAN interpretations accreted ONTO the Word and as such, subject to failure. ABJECT failure of the WORST sort, like any OTHER human religion system.

Real possibilities of why:
(1) Humans suck; humans fail.
(2) Humans pretend their notions equate to the mind of God
(3) Human doctrines and dogmas bes just plain wrong
(4) In all cases where it seems otherwise, see #1-#3.

[merryheart]

MCW is right.

Those who claim to have been "burned by WOF" are not making said claims against the Word of God, the claims are against a system of teaching that in our experience, opinion and belief is against the Word. Further, many of those who feel "burned by WOF" are in actuality burned by the false shepharding movement which is often associated with those who call themselves WOF (This is because many who follow the whole WOF wind, also followed the shepharding wind.) Those who are associated with WOF teaching churches may or may not have had those same experiences, but lets don't be coy towards those who have. Spiritual abuse through the unauthorized use of scripture has many names. Lets call it what it is.

[Ajax 777]

Oh, never mind.

[merryheart]

never mind the never mind then ^_^

[~RENEE~]

I been burned by non-WOF. Yep not all but some here. Have told me that what Cecil has gone through was from God so He could teach me something. That just burns like the dickens.

[merryheart]

I been burned by non-WOF. Yep not all but some here. Have told me that what Cecil has gone through was from God so He could teach me something. That just burns like the dickens.

This - and its converse from the "other side" where folk claim that if one is sick, and not healed then they are in sin are both divisive ways of viewing the issue at hand. I cannot imagine most posters here saying either, and the ones who would, well their opinion is so extreme it hardly merits a response :(

Off this board - well, I have heard both. IMO they are both out of order.

Spiritual abuse through the unauthorized use of scripture has many names. Lets call it what it is.

[merryheart]

God can use all things for good for us, that does not mean that all those things were His will. God can teach us through sickness - but I can't imagine that He wants us sick. I also do not believe that if you are still sick after seeking Him with your whole heart that it is necessarily through any other fault than the sin condition we still live in on this earth.

God is not a vending machine for healing - sometimes we get an instant miracle, but most things of God come through trial, patience, and trusting that He *has* you no matter what circumstance you live in. (Though He slay me, yet will I call Him Lord)

Somewhere in the extremes is balance, and I suspect most of us agree more than we disagree.

[Optimax]

MCW is right.

Those who claim to have been "burned by WOF" are not making said claims against the Word of God, the claims are against a system of teaching that in our experience, opinion and belief is against the Word. Further, many of those who feel "burned by WOF" are in actuality burned by the false shepharding movement which is often associated with those who call themselves WOF (This is because many who follow the whole WOF wind, also followed the shepharding wind.) Those who are associated with WOF teaching churches may or may not have had those same experiences, but lets don't be coy towards those who have. Spiritual abuse through the unauthorized use of scripture has many names. Lets call it what it is.

I remember hearing about the movement you spoke of. Correct me if I do not remember correctly, it seems like it was a movement that wanted to "oversee" all areas of a person's life and rule it.

Either way this is not what I consider to be WOF.

The WOF churches, ministries, etc. I have been privileged to be in taught how to live by faith as scripture commands us to do.

There is also those who error in that.

I am also sure that some of the ministries I believe to be "best" would be considered "worst" by some.:D

[merryheart]

I remember hearing about the movement you spoke of. Correct me if I do not remember correctly, it seems like it was a movement that wanted to "oversee" all areas of a person's life and rule it.

Either way this is not what I consider to be WOF.

The WOF churches, ministries, etc. I have been privileged to be in taught how to live by faith as scripture commands us to do.

There is also those who error in that.

I am also sure that some of the ministries I believe to be "best" would be considered "worst" by some.:D


Lets face it, in every belief system are some who really crave God and, and others who just want to look good ^_^

I think we can find more points of agreement if we listen carefully to what is meant - folk are often not speaking the same language and words can mean different things to different people. We should be pouring the oil of the Spirit over the wounds of those who say they are wounded instead of lashing out when the words are perceived to be an attack. Sometimes it really is one, but often its just someone saying "I hurt"

[Balance]

I had an accident in a Chevy once - the car was not built correctly and I was taking a corner at 90 m.p.h. and the tie rod broke.

There -

That's proof that all Chevy's are bad.

Hey, if it works for a people group - it must work for a car company - right?

[Optimax]

Lets face it, in every belief system are some who really crave God and, and others who just want to look good ^_^

I think we can find more points of agreement if we listen carefully to what is meant - folk are often not speaking the same language and words can mean different things to different people. We should be poring the oil of the Spirit over the wounds of those who say they are wounded instead of lashing out when the words are perceived to be an attack. Sometimes it really is one, but often its just someone saying "I hurt"


Yes, listening carefully and considering what another viewpoint says is important. Then carefully comparing scripture to both viewpoints.

Doing so often will either establish one more so in what was already believed or bring out a point that needs more consideration.

This in turn will bring about the end result of drawing a little closer to the truth.

[JimfromOhio]

Many Christians like me are believe that Word of Faith teaches contrary to the teachings of the Bible. Word of Faith is a teaching movement kindred to many Pentecostal churches and individuals around the world. My concept of Word of Faith is that they focuses on works in terms of “faith” towards health, wealth and prosperity. I don’t view these as the essentials of Christian life and practice.

Regarding to a deaf man sitting by the road, not hearing what Jesus have preached AND not hearing what people are saying about Jesus. I would not know a thing about Jesus. This was BEFORE sign language and BEFORE technology. In Mark 7:31-32 "Then Jesus left the vicinity of Tyre and went through Sidon, down to the Sea of Galilee and into the region of the Decapolis. There some people brought to him a man who was deaf and could hardly talk, and they begged him to place his hand on the man." This tells us clearly that the man is just sitting there, not hearing what is going on and could hardly talk. People have asked Jesus to HEAL the man. Then read verses 33-35 "After he took him aside, away from the crowd, Jesus put his fingers into the man's ears. Then he spit and touched the man's tongue. He looked up to heaven and with a deep sigh said to him, "Ephphatha!" (which means, "Be opened!" ). At this, the man's ears were opened, his tongue was loosened and he began to speak plainly."

Now.. did any of the verses say that this deaf man had faith to be healed? I didn't see the word "faith" in those verses. In verses 36 and 37, Jesus commanded them not to tell anyone. But the more he did so, the more they kept talking about it. People were overwhelmed with amazement. "He has done everything well," they said. "He even makes the deaf hear and the mute speak."

In the last 100 years, prosperity teaching have referred to our ability to have wealth from God through our faith. There's alot of talk about "doctrine of Prosperity" coming from various teachers, especially from Word of Faith teachers. Their faith and prosperity teachings states that we can have the nice cars, big homes, and great lifestyle if we have faith in God and plant seeds. Jesus never preached how to be earthly prosperity. The Apostles surely didn't either.

My main problem with Word of Faith preachers are using "prosperity" to attract people with itching ears so they will be motivated to do something for themselves rather than sound spiritual docrine. When I do, I am reminded of this verse: For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. — 2 Timothy 4:3. Word of Faith's effort to popularize the Christian faith has been extremely damaging to Christian faith. Such teachers only want your money. In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money 2 Peter 2:3 (NLT).

I reject Prosperity Gospel (i.e. Word of Faith) doctrines for many reasons. Its a long list. If its a long list, then the doctrines they believe are not essentials for my relationship with God. Nothing wrong with prosperity but the desires and the dreams of prosperity ties to idolatry. When we accumulate our possessions for our own selfish sake--those possessions have become idols. Idols when a Christian have a selfish heart of greed is your master.

How much more should an average Christian have a clear understanding about the doctrine of prosperity? God is asking Christians to surrender their own selfish little kingdom and interests of their excessive lifestyle. People are so used to seeing everyone serving their own interests that no other kind of spiritual conduct is expected.

Get to know two things about a man- How he earns his money and how he spends it- and you have the clue to his character, for you have a search light that shows up the inmost recesses of his soul. You know all you need to know about his standards, his motives, his driving desires, and his real religion. Robert J. McCracken

We can stand affliction better than we can prosperity, for in prosperity we forget God. (D.L. Moody)

Benjamin Franklin “The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself.

There is nothing wrong with having a desire to prosper as long as our motives are correct. Christians' view of money and material possessions is an effective barometer of our spirituality. As Jesus said, "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" (Matthew 6:21). In Proverbs 4:23, "Above all else, guard your heart, for it affects everything you do." (NLT) In Proverbs 21:2, "People may think they are doing what is right, but the Lord examines the heart." (NLT)

When Jesus wore a crown of thorns, do you wish to wear a crown of gold? Johann Arndt, *True Christianity*.

WOF have yet to prove a biblically-coherent theology of the language of empowerment rather using terms "destiny", "favor", "promotion" and "increase" rather than being blunt of the word "greed".

WOF's main message remained consistent with a culture disillusioned with a God who seemed to be disturbingly unpredictable, prayers that seemed to go unanswered.

WOF's main messages are most venerated deities in the Western pantheon: money, health and self-fulfillment.

WOF teaches that a God who actually hears our prayers and wants to answer them by telling us of the desire of God to heal people of their physical infirmities when often goes unanswered for many Christians.

The bottom line, regardless of how one got their wealth, health or status, no matter "what" you have, the key is knowing "WHO" you are "inside" as Christ see you. James reminded us in Chapter 2 how we are not to "compare" others of "what" they have but rather of "who" they are inside. As Jesus rebuked to a group in Matthew 23:25 ".........You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence."

[Optimax]

Regarding to a deaf man sitting by the road, not hearing what Jesus have preached AND not hearing what people are saying about Jesus. I would not know a thing about Jesus. This was BEFORE sign language and BEFORE technology. In Mark 7:31-32 "Then Jesus left the vicinity of Tyre and went through Sidon, down to the Sea of Galilee and into the region of the Decapolis. There some people brought to him a man who was deaf and could hardly talk, and they begged him to place his hand on the man." This tells us clearly that the man is just sitting there, not hearing what is going on and could hardly talk. People have asked Jesus to HEAL the man. Then read verses 33-35 "After he took him aside, away from the crowd, Jesus put his fingers into the man's ears. Then he spit and touched the man's tongue. He looked up to heaven and with a deep sigh said to him, "Ephphatha!" (which means, "Be opened!" ). At this, the man's ears were opened, his tongue was loosened and he began to speak plainly."

Now.. did any of the verses say that this deaf man had faith to be healed? I didn't see the word "faith" in those verses. In verses 36 and 37, Jesus commanded them not to tell anyone. But the more he did so, the more they kept talking about it. People were overwhelmed with amazement. "He has done everything well," they said. "He even makes the deaf hear and the mute speak."




You brought up a lot of "questions" people have brought up about faith.

The one I left about the deaf man.

Consider the faith of those who brought him to Jesus to be healed.

I have seen deaf ears opened.

In those cases it was a gift of the Spirit in operation. However the person(s) was taken to a separate room where only those who did not doubt was present. so, the faith of those present had an effect whether by gift of the Spirit and/or by faith of those present.


A person can be healed by a gift of the Spirit such as gift of healings or by faith.

We can not depend on the gifts to operate.

We can always depend on Faith.

[JimfromOhio]

You brought up a lot of "questions" people have brought up about faith.

The one I left about the deaf man.

Consider the faith of those who brought him to Jesus to be healed.

I have seen deaf ears opened.

In those cases it was a gift of the Spirit in operation.

A person can be healed by a gift of the Spirit such as gift of healings or by faith.

We can not depend on the gifts to operate.

We can always depend on Faith.

Do you know that I am legally deaf and my faith always have been strong. Maybe by your doctrine's definition, my faith didn't qualify. ;)

[Optimax]

Do you know that I am legally deaf and my faith always have been strong. Maybe by your doctrine's definition, my faith didn't qualify. ;)

Yes, I know that you are legally deaf.

I have no doubt that in the understanding you have of faith and how it works your faith is strong.

I also know God's word does not fail.

I know that if you made a quality decision to immerse yourself in God's word concerning the healing scriptures.

Obtained healing tapes or CD's that was full of healing scriptures and that healing is yours(not full of "well, you just never know what God is going to do", or "It just may not be God's will to heal you" for whatever reason.

The CD's or tapes I speak of would go through all those questions in detail and give the answers for the listeners consideration.

If you did the above and could receive it you would be healed.

[uhmiliekmudkipz]

hail satan and you will never be burnt again.

[uhmiliekmudkipz]

hail satan and he will give you as many ice packs as you want for said burns.

[JimfromOhio]

Yes, I know that you are legally deaf.

I have no doubt that in the understanding you have of faith and how it works your faith is strong.

I also know God's word does not fail.

I know that if you made a quality decision to immerse yourself in God's word concerning the healing scriptures.

Obtained healing tapes or CD's that was full of healing scriptures and that healing is yours(not full of "well, you just never know what God is going to do", or "It just may not be God's will to heal you" for whatever reason.

The CD's or tapes I speak of would go through all those questions in detail and give the answers for the listeners consideration.

If you did the above and could receive it you would be healed.
There is more to life than that. There is also the realm of the spirit, the invisible spiritual kingdom of God. Biblical faith is this: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1-2). I have learned to understand that God is the deeper life and much more than "faith systems". There is a verse in the Bible that God promises that there won’t be anything so bad happen to me that I am not able to bear it. Jesus said clearly about a penny's worth of sparrows compare to us. Matthew 10:29: Are not two sparrows sold for a penny ? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. If God can control with those two sparrows, then He will do the same for His children as well.

I will stick with Faith that I believe is doctrinally correct. :wave:

[didaskalos]

I have spoken to hundreds of people who claim to be "ex-wof" and in the VAST majorigy of the cases, they have no clue as to what WoF actually teaches. Which tells me one of two things.. they where never WoF to start with or they tried WoF but never actually learned what was being said : which explains why they failed in it.

For instance.... saying that WoF has anything at all to do with "sheparding" is absurd.
WoF is vehemently against the concept of "sheparding" and has never had anything to do with it.

LOL...
Ex-WoF "experts."
What a hoot.

[pinetree]

m

[JimfromOhio]

I have spoken to hundreds of people who claim to be "ex-wof" and in the VAST majorigy of the cases, they have no clue as to what WoF actually teaches. Which tells me one of two things.. they where never WoF to start with or they tried WoF but never actually learned what was being said : which explains why they failed in it.

For instance.... saying that WoF has anything at all to do with "sheparding" is absurd.
WoF is vehemently against the concept of "sheparding" and has never had anything to do with it.

LOL...
Ex-WoF "experts."
What a hoot.

Interesting, I oughta check them out.

[~RENEE~]

My concept of Word of Faith is that they focuses on works in terms of “faith” towards health, wealth and prosperity
Your concept is wrong

[~RENEE~]

WOF's main messages are most venerated deities in the Western pantheon: money, health and self-fulfillment.

Wrong again it is JESUS.

[dkbwarrior]

Do you know that I am legally deaf and my faith always have been strong. Maybe by your doctrine's definition, my faith didn't qualify. ;)

Well, and I don't say this to offend, simply to inform, but what you call faith does not qualify, at least, it doesn't qualify you to receive healing. You have specifically said on more than one occasion that you do not know why God chooses to not heal you. And you are getting exactly what you have chosen to believe.

Mark 11:22-24 says that the faith of God works this way: when you pray, believe that you receive it (present tense), and then you shall (future tense) have it.

Now if you quit believing that you have received it in the present tense, before you have it in the objective sense, then you are not excercising faith for it any longer.

I assume that you have prayed for healing, and that is good. But you certianly don't believe that you received it when you prayed. If you did, you would be giving glory to God for healing you. Like Abraham, being strong in faith, giving glory to God, for 25 years before his promised heir was born. Seeing that this is the definition of faith that Jesus gave, then I would have to say that you are not operating in the faith that believes it has received its healing.

In fact, what you believe you have received is nothing; that is, you believe that God chooses to not heal you. And guess what? You have got exactly what you believe. Faith does work, you see.

That doesn't mean that anyone else is better than you, or that it is hopeless, or any of the other offenses that the enemy will try to make you take offense at so that you cannot hear the Word of God objectively.

That is simply the way faith operates.

And don't tell me I don't understand. I was diagnosed with a terminal illness in 1990. I wasn't supposed to live two more years. Its been 16, and I am still believing I received.

The unbiblical belief that God chooses to not heal you simply does not qualify, it doesn't qualify at all. Although, because God is merciful, it is possible that at some time you may receive healing through the gifts of healing (which doesn't require your faith to operate, as it is a gift given as the Spirit wills), or you may encounter those who are willing to excercise their faith in your behalf, and receive healing that way.

But you will never receive healing by your own faith as long as your faith is believing that God has chosen to keep you sick.

Peace...

[dkbwarrior]

boy oh boy..optimax

Jim is a mature saint..

tell him and us,just how do we receive!

I am all ears...

ps,thanks for your openess Jim.praying for ya bro!

I guess you could have said the same words for the prominent faith teacher,who recently her son who died of a disease..

ok,I am ready,how do we receive?

by the way,if we can speak a mountain into the sea,can you please speak away our brothers hearing problem..

the real problem is the formulization of the healing verses..

We all know God heals,but is it all the time?

History says no!

I don't see how history is relevant to the Will of God, nor do I see how the death of a prominent teachers son is relevant to the Will of God. The Will of God is not determined by circumstance. It is determined by the Word of God wieghed against the revealed Will of God in the life and ministry of Jesus Christ while on earth.

Do you want to know how to receive? Really? I thinking probably not. Because we all know what Jesus said to do to receive what you pray for.

He is the one that said to speak, believe what you say will come to pass, and not doubt in your heart, and you will have it. That is how you get healed.

You can be glib all you want, and tell me how it doesn't work for so and so, but that doesn't mean that Jesus is a liar. It just means that the person in question doesn't believe that it will come to pass.

Its just like anyone can build a house. I can explain exactly how to do it. But not everyone will. Because it takes time to learn to be a carpenter, it takes knowledge, revelation. And no matter how long you are a carpenter, there is always more to learn.

You saying, "If what Jesus said is really true, then speak to a mountain so I can see it move", is akin to me saying to a school teacher, "If it is true that anyone can build a house, then build me one and show me".

I mean, that sounds cute and all, and I'm sure it gives you the satisfaction of saying to yourself "so there, take that", but it doesn't prove anything except that you are not sincere about the issue.

It is easy enough to tell someone how to do something, but it takes time, experience, knowledge and revelation to get from the telling to the doing.

Peace...

[millerrod]

maybe before people throw a bag of guilt on Jims back maybe the majority of his effort in life has been in serving God and not his hearing. Its this whole guilt trip thing that makes my blood boil. Many times God will greatly increase other senses of a deaf person stop treating jim like there is something wrong with being deaf because I guarantee you God has increased some of his other senses to the point that would make some of your senses seem disabled. Why do up put your time and energy and prayers and teaching inthings that pass as grass or flowers maybe all that energy could be spent on things of the spirit instead of things of the flesh.

[Faithful Love]

maybe before people throw a bag of guilt on Jims back


The truth of the Word is not a bag of guilt. :o

Some who do not want to receive it, do what it says, or think it will skew their doctrine may accuse it of being a bag of guilt - but it does not make it so.

Lining up ones life to the Word, instead of "history" or experience, is what we are called to do.

[millerrod]

When only a part of Gods Word is shown and not the whole of Gods Word, when but one side of the coin is shown, the results can be anything but Truth.
Both groups have presented clear scripture to support their beliefs, if people could be truthful with themselves and accept ALL the scripture presented by both groups, instead of part, the battle would be over. Maybe pride is not going to allow either group to do so.
And that is sad.
I have seen wof on this forum who understand and teach with both sides of the coin - the whole of scripture, and then there are some who do not. The exact same thing can be said about the non wof as well be it at CF or be it in the world.
There is way to much time by both groups spent on argueing personal blessings concerning things of the flesh.
Its all about Jesus Christ and spreading His Gospel.
I keep praying that people will see there is Truth found within each group but it seems pride is a very heavy and very tall stumbling stone.
I am deaf in one ear and have been for a long time and could care less about it and i sure have never prayed for my hearing to come back i have a hearing aid and i dont even wear it. i am not going to spend my time praying for my own healing when i know people dieing and suffering with cancer and many other horrible diseases. i would feel selfish to pray for a simple thing like hearing in one ear when others i love suffer so greatly. I would feel selfish to pray for more riches when i have a roof over my head and thousands of people dont.
News flash its not about US !! its about who we say we Love our neighbors and its about loving God.
I have already been given the greatest blessing i could ever recieve MY SALVATION and now that i have recieved my blessing i want to tell everyone about and tell them how they to can recieve the greatest blessing, the blessing we should be preaching, the blessing we should be spreading, that blessing being Salvation found in JESUS CHRIST and Life Eternal !!

[Faithful Love]

I am deaf in one ear and have been for a long time and could care less about it and i sure have never prayed for my hearing to come back i have a hearing aid and i dont even wear it. i am not going to spend my time praying for my own healing when i know people dieing and suffering with cancer and many other horrible diseases. i would feel selfish to pray for a simple thing like hearing in one ear when others i love suffer so greatly.


That says it all. :o


You have not because you ask not. How very sad to go through life impaired when God already provided your complete health. I am sorry for you. :(

[Jimbeaux]

For those who claim to have "been burned by WOF".

Possibilities of why:

1. Sufficient time was not spent with the word to gain understanding of the subject that "burned".

2. Gave up to soon, maybe it was just "too hard".

3. Some relative, friend or other person known failed. Refer to #1.

4. Misunderstood what was being taught. Refer to #1.

5. All other reasons and situations that can, may and will be brought up again. Refer to #1.

The Word never fails.

God never fails.

People do.

You skipped #6.
6. WOF is just plain bad doctrine.

And you are right, the Word never fails … except when it is misinterpreted and misapplied. And WOF is the heavyweight champions in that area.

(Is this the response you were looking for, Optimax?)

~Jim
Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

[Jimbeaux]

I have spoken to hundreds of people who claim to be "ex-wof" and in the VAST majorigy of the cases, they have no clue as to what WoF actually teaches. Which tells me one of two things.. they where never WoF to start with or they tried WoF but never actually learned what was being said : which explains why they failed in it.

*****

This is a crock.

I know exactly what WOF is. You (and others in this forum) have tried to sugarcoat and whitewash it to cover some of its more outlandish false claims, but some of us ex-WOF’ers know exactly what it is and refuse to be taken in by it any longer.

I know you would like for us to come into your tidy clean living room and not inspect the rest of the WOF house but it ain’t gonna happen. There are just too many people who have been “burned” by the doctrine to deny its errors any longer.

Just saying we oppose it because we don’t understand it is a cop-out. The fact is, we oppose it because we DO understand it. That’s your problem.

~Jim
Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

[JimfromOhio]

maybe before people throw a bag of guilt on Jims back maybe the majority of his effort in life has been in serving God and not his hearing. Its this whole guilt trip thing that makes my blood boil. Many times God will greatly increase other senses of a deaf person stop treating jim like there is something wrong with being deaf because I guarantee you God has increased some of his other senses to the point that would make some of your senses seem disabled. Why do up put your time and energy and prayers and teaching inthings that pass as grass or flowers maybe all that energy could be spent on things of the spirit instead of things of the flesh.

Thank you :thumbsup:and yes. Thinking lately about my deafness, multiple sclerosis and other disabilities, and my adversaries have made my will strong and made my desires to live stronger which caused my determination to be strong in God's grace.

No matter what, life goes on and we will do our best to enjoy our life in God's grace. :)

But there's more.

People with disabilities make up one of the largest minority group in the country, especially within Christian Churches. The Bible also teaches us to bear the burdens of someone with a disability fulfills a command of scripture (Galatians 6:2). 2 Samuel 9:3-4 tells the story of David’s kindness to Mephibosheth, the lame son of Jonathan, modeling the way the church should minister. Many churches often treats disabilities, especially with the deaf community as 2nd or 3rd class citizens. A disabled Christian believer can enrich in a Christian community, Christians with disabilities – especially those in positions of leadership can serve as God's best examples of His power being made perfect in weakness. There are some churches (see the list in Joni Tada's website), that have servants who are simply "Helpers", 1 Corinthians 12:28 is amplified in Romans 12:7,8 by the gifts of contributing, giving aid, showing mercy and perhaps also rendering service. This gift is the most common and perhaps very important because Peter encourages those who render service to do it "with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 4:11).

For the person who does not experience healing, Biblically, God will grant the strength to endure hardship. He will grant spiritual wisdom. Finally, He will reward those who are faithful, those who trust Him through affliction. (2 Corinthians 12:9-10, 2 Corinthians 4:7-12, 16-18, James 1:12, and Revelation 2:10). The fear generated by bad theologies was a problem that disabled people faced in Jesus’ day as today’s Christians with bad theologies. In John 9:2-3, Jesus and His disciples encountered a blind man. “His disciples asked Him, ‘Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?’ ‘Neither this man nor his parents sinned,’ said Jesus, ‘but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.’” A solid and sound theological framework is needed to understand disabilities and God's sovereignty over suffering.

My life is determined by God because I know when my mentor passed away when he was in the 40's in 1999, his life has impacted me and others around him. Before his death while suffering with cancer, he was completely in the hands of God and not in the hands of doctors even though he prayed for healing. Many who saw so many miracles happen in my mentor's life during the 28 months he battled cancer, only eternity will tell how God has used his life and death to influence many Deaf and hearing people here and around the world. As someone quoted "A man of God, in the will of God, is immortal until his work on earth is done."

Its not about what WE can get out of God's blessing but rather what God's blessings can bring God's glory.

[JimfromOhio]

The truth of the Word is not a bag of guilt. :o

Some who do not want to receive it, do what it says, or think it will skew their doctrine may accuse it of being a bag of guilt - but it does not make it so.

Lining up ones life to the Word, instead of "history" or experience, is what we are called to do.
God's purpose in redemption was not to make people’s lives happy, healthy and free of trouble; His purpose was to rescue them from sin then conform them from the inside out to the image of His Son by the power of His Spirit.

[Jimbeaux]

The truth of the Word is not a bag of guilt. :o

Some who do not want to receive it, do what it says, or think it will skew their doctrine may accuse it of being a bag of guilt - but it does not make it so.

Lining up ones life to the Word, instead of "history" or experience, is what we are called to do.

You are exactly right.

That’s why I (we) oppose the WOF interpretation of scripture.

~Jim

Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

[millerrod]

That says it all. :o


You have not because you ask not. How very sad to go through life impaired when God already provided your complete health. I am sorry for you. :(

Rather my hearing impared than my heart. I ask God for plenty every day my concentration is however on others not on myself.
I have everything i could have ever wanted, a Lord who loves me and a new heart so please dont tell me [ i have not ] just because your concentration is on yourself.
You feel sorry for me because my Love for others is greater than the Love i have for myself, your right that says it all !! my disability can be fixed with a simple hearing aid , your disability will take Christs example to fix. His example was simple Christ cared about-Loved others more than himself.
His concentration His prayers was not about HIM or His suffering It was about other people.
Christ was not concerned about His hunger or His health or where His head would lay down on any given night.
Christ did not promise any of His twelve Disciples anything material wise but He did ask tem to walk away from everything. John and james walked away from a fishing buisness, Luke walked away from being a physician each gave everything and followed Christ with nothing more than the cloths on their back.
WHY ?? Because their concern was not upon their selves it was on following Christ and spreading His Gospel a Gospel which is about Loving others more than yourself about making sacrifices for others out of Love for them. Its funny my flesh hears with one ear but my spirit hears with both ears wide open. There will be those who read this whos ears of flesh hear perfectly then there will be those whos spirit is deaf to what i am trying to say. And that my friend Says It All !!

[BenAdam]

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/04_03/SacredCowES_468x521.jpg

[dkbwarrior]

This is a crock.

I know exactly what WOF is. You (and others in this forum) have tried to sugarcoat and whitewash it to cover some of its more outlandish false claims, but some of us ex-WOF’ers know exactly what it is and refuse to be taken in by it any longer.

I know you would like for us to come into your tidy clean living room and not inspect the rest of the WOF house but it ain’t gonna happen. There are just too many people who have been “burned” by the doctrine to deny its errors any longer.

Just saying we oppose it because we don’t understand it is a cop-out. The fact is, we oppose it because we DO understand it. That’s your problem.

~Jim

Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw



I don't think so Jim. Unless you are simply purposefully dishonest when you post. You and I have gone round and round about faith. You claim to not be able to comprehend what I am saying.

You can really pare WOF down do one aspect, and it is this: Faith believes that it receives when it prays.

24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
-Mark 11:24

You say that you understand WOF, yet you have never been able to comprehend this fundamental principle.

You continually say things like, "So and so had faith, and they didn't get healed", or "all christians aren't healed so that proves that God doesn't heal all", etc. etc.

When you say things like that you prove by your own words that you do not understand the concept at all. I don't care how long you spent in WOF circles Jim, you have no clue. This concept escapes you. You are unable to grasp it.

Unless, or course, like I said above, you really do understand, but feign ignorance in order to sow confusion. I would rather believe the first about you than the latter.

I would kinda be like telling me that you drove cars all your life, and then saying, "Well so and so pedalled to work every day, and their car never went 60 miles an hour".

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

I don't think so Jim. Unless you are simply purposefully dishonest when you post. You and I have gone round and round about faith. You claim to not be able to comprehend what I am saying.

You can really pare WOF down do one aspect, and it is this: Faith believes that it receives when it prays.

24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
-Mark 11:24

You say that you understand WOF, yet you have never been able to comprehend this fundamental principle.

You continually say things like, "So and so had faith, and they didn't get healed", or "all christians aren't healed so that proves that God doesn't heal all", etc. etc.

When you say things like that you prove by your own words that you do not understand the concept at all. I don't care how long you spent in WOF circles Jim, you have no clue. This concept escapes you. You are unable to grasp it.

Unless, or course, like I said above, you really do understand, but feign ignorance in order to sow confusion. I would rather believe the first about you than the latter.

I would kinda be like telling me that you drove cars all your life, and then saying, "Well so and so pedalled to work every day, and their car never went 60 miles an hour".

Peace...

I agree with Jimbeaux and I can see that he knows what he is talking about.

[dkbwarrior]

Thank you :thumbsup:and yes. Thinking lately about my deafness, multiple sclerosis and other disabilities, and my adversaries have made my will strong and made my desires to live stronger which caused my determination to be strong in God's grace.

No matter what, life goes on and we will do our best to enjoy our life in God's grace. :)

But there's more.

People with disabilities make up one of the largest minority group in the country, especially within Christian Churches. The Bible also teaches us to bear the burdens of someone with a disability fulfills a command of scripture (Galatians 6:2). 2 Samuel 9:3-4 tells the story of David’s kindness to Mephibosheth, the lame son of Jonathan, modeling the way the church should minister. Many churches often treats disabilities, especially with the deaf community as 2nd or 3rd class citizens. A disabled Christian believer can enrich in a Christian community, Christians with disabilities – especially those in positions of leadership can serve as God's best examples of His power being made perfect in weakness. There are some churches (see the list in Joni Tada's website), that have servants who are simply "Helpers", 1 Corinthians 12:28 is amplified in Romans 12:7,8 by the gifts of contributing, giving aid, showing mercy and perhaps also rendering service. This gift is the most common and perhaps very important because Peter encourages those who render service to do it "with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 4:11).

For the person who does not experience healing, Biblically, God will grant the strength to endure hardship. He will grant spiritual wisdom. Finally, He will reward those who are faithful, those who trust Him through affliction. (2 Corinthians 12:9-10, 2 Corinthians 4:7-12, 16-18, James 1:12, and Revelation 2:10). The fear generated by bad theologies was a problem that disabled people faced in Jesus’ day as today’s Christians with bad theologies. In John 9:2-3, Jesus and His disciples encountered a blind man. “His disciples asked Him, ‘Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?’ ‘Neither this man nor his parents sinned,’ said Jesus, ‘but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.’” A solid and sound theological framework is needed to understand disabilities and God's sovereignty over suffering.

My life is determined by God because I know when my mentor passed away when he was in the 40's in 1999, his life has impacted me and others around him. Before his death while suffering with cancer, he was completely in the hands of God and not in the hands of doctors even though he prayed for healing. Many who saw so many miracles happen in my mentor's life during the 28 months he battled cancer, only eternity will tell how God has used his life and death to influence many Deaf and hearing people here and around the world. As someone quoted "A man of God, in the will of God, is immortal until his work on earth is done."

Its not about what WE can get out of God's blessing but rather what God's blessings can bring God's glory.

I do agree with you that God can give us strength to endure and/or cope with sickness and disability. And I also agree with you that it can glorify God and witness to His power working in us. I don't think it is His best for us, but then none of us will arrive at Gods best for us in all areas of life and godliness during this life on earth, and we work within the parameters that we can.

However, I fully disagree with the notion that WOF is somehow "mean" (that kinda reminds me of my daughter saying 'your mean dad' when I tell her to cleam her room or something) because they believe that God has provided healing for all.

I have yet to be in a WOF church that did not have a sign language section, and disability access. Alot of sick and hurting poeple come to WOF churches, becuase they want to learn how to be healed. And WOF reaches out to them, because we want them to be healed also.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

I do agree with you that God can give us strength to endure and/or cope with sickness and disability. And I also agree with you that it can glorify God and witness to His power working in us. I don't think it is His best for us, but then none of will arrive in this life, and we work within the parameters that we can.

However, I fully disagree with the notion that WOF is somehow "mean" (that kinda reminds me of my daughter saying 'your mean dad' when I tell her to cleam her room or something) because they believe that God has provided healing for all.

I have het to be in a WOF church that did not have a sign language section, and disability access. Alot of sick and hurting poeple come to WOF churches, becuase they want to learn how to be healed. And WOF reaches out to them, because we want them to be healed also.

Peace...
To respond to your specific quote "I don't think it is His best for us, but then none of will arrive in this life, and we work within the parameters that we can."

That statement is more self-centered doctrine more than God-centered doctrine. We are to look all over the verses in the Bible and do NOT be selective by choosing what looks good "to us".

I have seen parents spoiled their disabled kids and today most of them are not able to survive in this world without their parents. I am thankful that my parents treated me like my "normal" brothers and sisters. I am fully independent and able to survive without my parents. I have learned from my weaknesses and made them strong.

God as my Father gave me GRACE to deal with my sufferings. Life is filled with pain and sorrow and suffering. Bad things happen to everybody because we are living in a sinful world. The sources of "thorns" can be weaknesses, insults, distresses, persecutions and difficulties. God uses suffering to perfect His "Power is perfected in weakness". God is saying "You should not have self-confidence and trust in yourself in the sense you believe you're capable of anything eternal that only I can provide grace and power." Through GRACE, "Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." (James 1:4). Grace of heart is a gift from God and this has nothing to do with the thorns because God change our circumstances by changing us internally, by allowing Him to lift us above our present thorn and He will lead us into His will. James says count it all joy when you fall into various trials cause trials have a perfecting work. Peter says after you've suffered a while the Lord will make you perfect. God uses suffering to reveal our spiritual condition.

The following are some of my favorite verses:
Romans 5:3-5 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

James 1:2-5 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

I am glad that my Father (God) is NOT spoiling me and He is teaching me through His GRACE. Trials are intended to train me out of my "worldly" including my flesh's security and awaken me to the fact that I am to TRUST God during their trials or fall but at the same time, don't trust myself or trust my faith. TRUST GOD. In the book of James, the entire letter is about living faith during trials and list the tests intended to reveal the legitimacy of someone's faith. The VERY first test is the test of severe trials which means that we need to understand the strength or the genuineness of our own faith. Trials cannot destroy true faith; they only put it to the test and strengthen it as in spiritual training.

[Jimbeaux]

That says it all. :o


You have not because you ask not. How very sad to go through life impaired when God already provided your complete health. I am sorry for you. :(

And this is why I oppose a heartless doctrine that heaps guilt and not grace on people who are not as up-to-par physically as their accusers feel they should be. (And who among the living is perfectly heathy, anyhow?)
I recently asked a 45-year-old paraplegic, who had been injured and paralyzed in an automobile accident while he was only in his teens, if he ever hoped to walk again. He thought long and hard about it and finally said, “You know, Jim, there are outwardly healthy people in your church who are a lot more crippled than I am. Would you ask them that question?” Then he told me that he was attending our church because we did not make him feel guilty about being disabled, and he hoped that my question was not asked with an ulterior motive in mind.
He went on to tell me that he had attended several “full gospel” churches before he found ours and said that in every instance he became the focus of their attention and prayers. After a while, he began to suspect that his value to them was in that he could potentially be living proof that their theology was right if they could just get him to walk out of his wheelchair. But after a while, when he didn’t, he began to feel that he had become more of an embarrassment to them than a blessing; his only value was if he could walk, like them. They could tell him he should walk but could not explain to him why he couldn’t, even after their prayers. It always came down to a failure of faith—never their faith, it seemed, just his.
He said that eventually he stopped trying to second-guess God or condemn himself for having deficient faith and to accept that for a time this was what God had designed for his life and he knew that one day he would be completely healed—if not in this body, in the new one that was promised to him. Over time, with that reassurance, his self-condemnation left him and his trust in a loving God who had his best interests at heart was restored. And the further he gets away from a theology that heaps guilt and not grace on him the better his relationship with God becomes.
That’s his story and if it doesn’t set well with your theology, you will have to take it up with him. But I warn you, he may be in a wheelchair but he is a formidable opponent on this subject.

~Jim

Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

[dkbwarrior]

I will say this. I think that there is a difference in foundational WOF and popularized WOF.

Foundational WOF ministries that I can think of off hand are:

Kenneth Hagin
T.L. Osborne
Oral Roberts
Charles Capps
John Osteen
Kenneth Copeland

When these guys where preaching together in the 70's WOF was like an groundswell of the ocean welling up within Pentecostal/Charismatic circles. It was pretty much embraced and accepted, and just part of the Charismatic experience.

But just like a grounswell from the ocean crashes on the beach and breaks up, so did the movement break up into three somewhat different camps.

You had the foundational movement that stayed pretty much true to the original intent, people like Bill Winston, Keith Moore, Jesse Duplantis, Creflo Dollar, and others came along to numerous to name.

You had another group that became associated with WOF for what I believe was their view of it as a way to raise money, and/or control people. I will not name names here but there are several nationaly known ministries that poeple call WOF that I don't listen too, because all they appear to do is try to manipulate people out of money. And it bothers me when poeple associate WOF with those poeple, because I believe they are not.

You had a third group that came out of this who, in many cases, as a reaction to the second group, became virulently opposed to anything WOF. This saddens me, because though some I am sure are simply opposed to what God is doing today, most I am convinced have been manipulated by offense toward the second group, and it has spilled over against anything they perceive as WOF in general.

My perspectives, anyway. I do know that because WOF is not a denomination, that most WOF churches are independent. That means that there can be any variety of things going on in various churches under the guise of WOF, that is not at all consistent with foundational WOF as I understand it.

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

I will say this. I think that there is a difference in foundational WOF and popularized WOF.

Foundational WOF ministries that I can think of off hand are:

Kenneth Hagin
T.L. Osborne
Oral Roberts
Charles Capps
John Osteen
Kenneth Copeland

When these guys where preaching together in the 70's WOF was like an groundswell of the ocean welling up within Pentecostal/Charismatic circles. It was pretty much embraced and accepted, and just part of the Charismatic experience.

But just like a grounswell from the ocean crashes on the beach and breaks up, so did the movement break up into three somewhat different camps.

You had the foundational movement that stayed pretty much true to the original intent, people like Bill Winston, Keith Moore, Jesse Duplantis, Creflo Dollar, and others came along to numerous to name.

You had another group that became associated with WOF for what I believe was their view of it as a way to raise money, and/or control people. I will not name names here but there are several nationaly known ministries that poeple call WOF that I don't listen too, because all they appear to do is try to manipulate people out of money. And it bothers me when poeple associate WOF with those poeple, because I believe they are not.

You had a third group that came out of this who, in many cases, as a reaction to the second group, became virulently opposed to anything WOF. This saddens me, because though some I am sure are simply opposed to what God is doing today, most I am convinced have been manipulated by offense toward the second group, and it has spilled over against anything they perceive as WOF in general.

My perspectives, anyway. I do know that because WOF is not a denomination, that most WOF churches are independent. That means that there can be any variety of things going on in various churches under the guise of WOF, that is not at all consistent with foundational WOF as I understand it.

Peace...

I don't have any of their books nor I follow them. Most Christian denominations and movements share common beliefs in the major aspects of the Christian faith, while differing in many secondary doctrines. Christians believe what the Bible teaches in context which are the basics of what Christians believe and unite on. Of course WOF is independent and obviously they are outside most of Christian denominations' doctrines. The tendency of the modern movement is to lead people to seek experiences of their self-centered desires. True revivals humble believers before God and emphasize the person of Christ according His will.

[~RENEE~]

EXO26And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.
Psa 103:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul;
And all that is within me, bless His holy name!
Psa 103:2 Bless the LORD, O my soul,
And forget not all His benefits:
Psa 103:3 Who forgives all your iniquities,
Who heals all your diseases,
Mat 8:17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:
"He Himself took our infirmities
And bore our sicknesses."
Jam 13Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Jam 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.
Jam 18And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

[Jimbeaux]

I don't think so Jim. Unless you are simply purposefully dishonest when you post. You and I have gone round and round about faith. You claim to not be able to comprehend what I am saying.

You can really pare WOF down do one aspect, and it is this: Faith believes that it receives when it prays.

24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
-Mark 11:24

You say that you understand WOF, yet you have never been able to comprehend this fundamental principle.

You continually say things like, "So and so had faith, and they didn't get healed", or "all christians aren't healed so that proves that God doesn't heal all", etc. etc.

When you say things like that you prove by your own words that you do not understand the concept at all. I don't care how long you spent in WOF circles Jim, you have no clue. This concept escapes you. You are unable to grasp it.

Unless, or course, like I said above, you really do understand, but feign ignorance in order to sow confusion. I would rather believe the first about you than the latter.

I would kinda be like telling me that you drove cars all your life, and then saying, "Well so and so pedalled to work every day, and their car never went 60 miles an hour".

Peace...

No, it is not as simplistic as that, DK. If Mark 11.24 works as you want me to believe it does, then why doesn’t it work for you or every other believer like you tell me it should, all the time and in every instance?

What you are failing to do is compare spiritual things with spiritual things (1 Cor. 2.13), scripture with scripture, balance any isolated text with every other scripture. When we do this we know we must pray “according to His will” before He will hear and respond to our prayer (1 John 5.14-15). Presupposing you know what God’s will is in any matter you lay before Him will be proven/disproven by the results of the prayer. If what you have asked God to do—like heal a sick person—and that prayer is not answered as you think it should, you have simply misinterpreted something. The wise thing to do is to reexamine your belief system and change your thinking about God and what the word really says (as opposed to what you want it to say). Or you can simply justify it when it fails to live up to your expectations by convoluted complicated confusing “explanations” or you can just throw the blame on the sick person by chalking it up to their (not your, of course) lack of faith.

~Jim
Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

[merryheart]

I have come to the conclusion that - that which is not spoken in LOVE (humble, kind, gentle, non-judgmental, not self seeking...) is not the TRUTH

When ever something is said in an unloving way it is twisted by the author of hate rather than purely given by the author of love and the Word of Truth. That twisting, simply makes it untrue, since twisted truths are where heresies begin.

[Faithful Love]

EXO26And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.
Psa 103:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul;
And all that is within me, bless His holy name!
Psa 103:2 Bless the LORD, O my soul,
And forget not all His benefits:
Psa 103:3 Who forgives all your iniquities,
Who heals all your diseases,
Mat 8:17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:
"He Himself took our infirmities
And bore our sicknesses."
Jam 13Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Jam 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.
Jam 18And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."



You keep posting scripture, which is so good.

Keep preaching, those who have spiritual ears will hear!:amen:

[JimfromOhio]

You keep posting scripture, which is so good. Too bad it is not what the antifaith folks want to hear. :o

Keep preaching, those who have spiritual ears will hear!:amen:

Anti-faith? Nope

Maybe anit-Word of Faith:D

We have different perspective on the word "FAITH" which we believe is very biblical. ;)

[~RENEE~]

Psa 103:3 Who forgives all your iniquities,
Who heals all your diseases,


Is this biblical

[~RENEE~]

Mat 8:17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:
"He Himself took our infirmities
And bore our sicknesses."

maybe this

[~RENEE~]

14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

this?

[millerrod]

maybe some should start a new doctrine and call it SOFAS [ supporters of flesh and self ] ^_^ ^_^ after all isnt it self comfort they are looking for what a fitting name ;)

[Jimbeaux]

14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

this?

It still needs to be evaluated with other scriptures, like 1 John 5.14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205.14-15;&version=50;51;78;31;47;). IOW, if what the elders are praying for is not in God’s immediate will for the sick person, it will never, can never, happen. That’s why every matter offered in prayer must be submitted to the will of God (Matt. 6.10; Luke 22.42 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt.%206.10;%20Luke%2022:42;&version=50;)). Presuming to know what God will do in anything submitted to Him is just that, presumption—it is not faith.

~Jim
Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

[Jimbeaux]

maybe some should start a new doctrine and call it SOFAS [ supporters of flesh and self ] ^_^ ^_^ after all isnt it self comfort they are looking for what a fitting name ;)

This is a two-edged sword, Rod. :)

~Jim
Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

[millerrod]

what do you mean Jim ??

[victoryword]

It still needs to be evaluated with other scriptures, like 1 John 5.14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205.14-15;&version=50;51;78;31;47;). IOW, if what the elders are praying for is not in God’s immediate will for the sick person, it will never, can never, happen. That’s why every matter offered in prayer must be submitted to the will of God (Matt. 6.10; Luke 22.42 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt.%206.10;%20Luke%2022:42;&version=50;)). Presuming to know what God will do in anything submitted to Him is just that, presumption—it is not faith.

~Jim

Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw



God's Word reveals His will Jim. John 5:14, 15 does not deflect from the guaranteed results of James 5:14-16. On the contrary, 1 John 5:14, 15 is more assurance that the elders will get the thing they are praying for because james has revealed the will of God for healing. God would not reveal to the elders anything opposite of what James says. Contrary to some teaching in certain circles, God does not have "two wills." I know some claim that God has a "revealed will" and a "secret will" but one could not back that up with Scripture.

If God did the opposite of what He promised in James and said that it was not His will, then we may as well scrap the rest of the Bible too, to include the passage you cite. Thankfully we know that God would not do that, unless one does not believe that God's Word is a revelation of His will.

[~RENEE~]

Jim I will let God's word sit for itself you may pick it apart if you desire. It is not my word it is His so you do not answer to me for what you do with it. You answer to God.

Enjoy

[sacerdote]

For those who claim to have "been burned by WOF".

Possibilities of why:

1. Sufficient time was not spent with the word to gain understanding of the subject that "burned".

2. Gave up to soon, maybe it was just "too hard".

3. Some relative, friend or other person known failed. Refer to #1.

4. Misunderstood what was being taught. Refer to #1.

5. All other reasons and situations that can, may and will be brought up again. Refer to #1.

The Word never fails.

God never fails.

People do.
What does the phrase "to be burned by wof" mean?

[BenAdam]

What does the phrase "to be burned by wof" mean?
see http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7141130

[hopeinGod]

Who is he that saith it and it comes to pass when the Lord commands it not? (from Lamentations)

Dave

[sacerdote]

see http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7141130
thanks

[Angel*Eyes]

Thinking lately about my deafness, multiple sclerosis and other disabilities, and my adversaries have made my will strong and made my desires to live stronger which caused my determination to be strong in God's grace.

No matter what, life goes on and we will do our best to enjoy our life in God's grace. :)



Your heart and commitment to God despite your circumstances is admirable. It is clear that in fact that you have been made strong through the grace of God.

Your life is an example of what it means to seek first the kingdom of God and to set your mind on things above. Could you just fathom the possiblity that during this season God might desire to bless you with something that you haven't sought after? I'm not telling you to have a false hope, but to be open to any change God might want to bring into your life. May God continue to bless you.

[JimfromOhio]

Your heart and commitment to God despite your circumstances is admirable. It is clear that in fact that you have been made strong through the grace of God.

Your life is an example of what it means to seek first the kingdom of God and to set your mind on things above. Could you just fathom the possiblity that during this season God might desire to bless you with something that you haven't sought after? I'm not telling you to have a false hope, but to be open to any change God might want to bring into your life. May God continue to bless you.

God changes me according to His will through His grace. If I am healed, praise the Lord when it is in God's will that I am healed. Otherwise, I am to submit to His will and serve Him to show others about Christ as He is, not what He can do for them (other than giving them eternal life).

[ImmersionX]

He is the one that said to speak, believe what you say will come to pass, and not doubt in your heart, and you will have it. That is how you get healed.

You can be glib all you want, and tell me how it doesn't work for so and so, but that doesn't mean that Jesus is a liar. It just means that the person in question doesn't believe that it will come to pass.

I believe the highlighted statement made by a poster of this thread is rubbish. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about it period!
I think that WoF is the modern-day equivalent of the 1st-2nd century Gnosticism movement(ie, both on the same level, not same concepts of doctrine).

Someone mentioned Ken Copeland....he actually thinks that we are/can become "little gods" on the level of Himself.

"Every Christian is a god. … You don’t have a god in you, you are one"--Ken Copeland.

Google that quote and you can find many sources.


"Pray to yourself, because I'm in your self and you're in Myself. We are one Spirit, saith the Lord." (Kenneth Copeland)
(Kenneth Copeland)"...And I say this with all respect so that it don't upset you too bad, but I say it anyway. When I read in the Bible where He says I AM, I just smile and say, 'Yes, I AM too.'" (Believer's Voice of Victory Broadcast, 7/9/1987).


Another Copeland classic!!!!!
Want more....there are plenty.

:preach:

[Optimax]

I will stick with Faith that I believe is doctrinally correct. :wave:

To continue with a belief of faith that has not produced results.

Then sadly you can expect no changes.

[Jimbeaux]

To continue with a belief of faith that has not produced results.

Then sadly you can expect no changes.

Great display of compassion, O.

But, my guess is, Optimax, Jimbohio’s faith works as good as yours with just about the same results. I have been on both sides of this issue and, truthfully, all I hear from WOF is a lot of talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk talk, talk, talk,talk about faith and healing but I do not see--have never seen--all that much results. Just endless "faith" chatter. Sure the televangelists with the big mailing lists of gullible donors get wealthy but the people they promise prosperity to are no richer or poorer than anyone else nor are they any healthier or sicker.

‘Splain that to me.

I completely reject the faith message of WOF’ers because I believe they do not understand what real faith is and I certainly reject the prosperity doctrine but today I am wealthier than I was when I was a Pentecostal preacher preaching the WOF message and my prayers for the sick are just as effective, if not more so, than they have ever been.

‘Splain that to me.

~Jim

Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

[victoryword]

Great display of compassion, O.

But, my guess is, Optimax, Jimbohio’s faith works as good as yours with just about the same results. I have been on both sides of this issue and, truthfully, all I hear from WOF is a lot of talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk talk, talk, talk,talk about faith and healing but I do not see--have never seen--all that much results. Just endless "faith" chatter. Sure the televangelists with the big mailing lists of gullible donors get wealthy but the people they promise prosperity to are no richer or poorer than anyone else nor are they any healthier or sicker.

‘Splain that to me.

I completely reject the faith message of WOF’ers because I believe they do not understand what real faith is and I certainly reject the prosperity doctrine but today I am wealthier than I was when I was a Pentecostal preacher preacher the WOF message and my prayers for the sick are just as effective, if not more so, than they have ever been.

‘Splain that to me.

~Jim


Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw


Jim, in Mark 9, some of Jesus disciples did not see any results even though they did their best too. Yet, when they enquired Jesus concerning this, His answer was not, "Well, God is sovereign. It may not have been His will." No. Jesus answered them and said the problem was their unbelief.

I think Optimax is in good company. God bless.

[dkbwarrior]

The highlighted statement made by a poster of this thread is rubbish, and the abuse that is associated with Word-Faith as a whole. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about it period!


You are so confused you cant seem to even read a sentence without reading your own wishful thinking into it.

When Jesus says that faith believes that it receives what it asks for; and Joe says that God may say yes, may say no, and may say wait; then it is impossible for Joe to believe that he recieves.

Let me put it a different way:

1) Jesus said to believe that you receive what you ask for and you will have it

2) Joe believed that you may or may not receive what you ask for when he prayed and didn't get it

Do those appear the same to you?

How bout if we assign numerals to the words so that mabey you can see clearly.

Believe=1
Will Receive=2
Have=3
May or May Not Receive=4

Jesus said that faith believes (1) that it recieves (2) what it asks for, and then they will have it (3). To make it simple, (1+2=3).

Joe believed (1) that he may or may not receive (4) what he asked for, and then didn't get it. To make it simple, (1+4=5). Joe then says, I had faith, but I didn't get it, therefore that scripture doesn't mean what it says.

The question is, did Joe excercise the kind of faith that Jesus described?

The answer is no, (just in case that was to complex for you...)

Faith, + believing without doubting, = having. That is the rules.

There is one thing that I have learned in my christian walk of faith. Truly believing in your heart that something will happen is alot harder than it seems to appear at first blush.

We were created in the image of God with the spiritual capacity for creative faith, just like our heavenly father. But we have been so weighted down with sin and condemnation and fear, that it takes some of us a lifetime to have enough faith to believe our way out of a cold, let alone move a mountain.

It isn't that Gods Word isn't true, it is simply that we have along way to go to begin to even scratch the surface of what God has in store for us. The one sure way to ensure that we never arrive there is to say it is Gods fault that we cant believe our way out of a wet paper bag, because that must be His will for us don't you know?

If you truly want a definition of rubbish, it is just that, blaming God for our own inability, and calling it His Will. What a load of garbage!

Peace...

[Jimbeaux]

Jim, in Mark 9, some of Jesus disciples did not see any results even though they did their best too. Yet, when they enquired Jesus concerning this, His answer was not, "Well, God is sovereign. It may not have been His will." No. Jesus answered them and said the problem was their unbelief.

I think Optimax is in good company. God bless.

That’s not the point, VW. The point is, show me your faith by your works (a rude translation might be, “ put up or shut up”), not just endless talk, talk, talk about faith and healing. IOW, don’t talk to me about faith if it doesn’t work for you any better than it does for me and don’t tell me how to heal the sick if I heal the sick with the same or better results than you or than when I did when I bought into WOF.


~Jim

Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

[Optimax]

Great display of compassion, O.

But, my guess is, Optimax, Jimbohio’s faith works as good as yours with just about the same results. I have been on both sides of this issue and, truthfully, all I hear from WOF is a lot of talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk talk, talk, talk,talk about faith and healing but I do not see--have never seen--all that much results. Just endless "faith" chatter. Sure the televangelists with the big mailing lists of gullible donors get wealthy but the people they promise prosperity to are no richer or poorer than anyone else nor are they any healthier or sicker.

‘Splain that to me.

I completely reject the faith message of WOF’ers because I believe they do not understand what real faith is and I certainly reject the prosperity doctrine but today I am wealthier than I was when I was a Pentecostal preacher preaching the WOF message and my prayers for the sick are just as effective, if not more so, than they have ever been.

‘Splain that to me.

~Jim

Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw



Actually there is a lot of compassion there. Healing is available to anyone who will do what scripture says. Now I know that will set off all of the normal "works" comments.

You reject WOF because you say they do not know what real faith is.

I am sure that is true of some.

I know from your post Jim, that you do not understand faith, and your programmed responses to post that explain it, and makes it impossible to this point for you to understand.

I am sure your response to this post will be more of your comments in which you claim to "know the truth" but you are without understanding of the subject you so intently attack.

Makes me wonder what event happened to you that makes you so intently rage against WOF.:)

[Optimax]

That’s not the point, VW. The point is, show me your faith by your works (a rude translation might be, “ put up or shut up”), not just endless talk, talk, talk about faith and healing. IOW, don’t talk to me about faith if it doesn’t work for you any better than it does for me and don’t tell me how to heal the sick if I heal the sick with the same or better results than you or than when I did when I bought into WOF.


~Jim

Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw


Jim:

I am amazed that you write put up or shut up when you have no idea of what has occurred in any of our lives outside of this forum.

Is it not somewhat arrogant to proclaim that without knowing for a fact what has transpired in any of the lives and/or ministries you just put down.

[victoryword]

That’s not the point, VW. The point is, show me your faith by your works (a rude translation might be, “ put up or shut up”), not just endless talk, talk, talk about faith and healing. IOW, don’t talk to me about faith if it doesn’t work for you any better than it does for me and don’t tell me how to heal the sick if I heal the sick with the same or better results than you or than when I did when I bought into WOF.


~Jim


Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw


You could possibly be right Jim. Maybe us WoFers are only "talk, talk, talk." However, here is the problem I find with many brothers and sisters who claim to know Christ but are opposed to the things we say here: they seem to ignore that the talk is consistent with Scripture. Whether or not my life lines up with what I am saying on this forum is a moot point. Do you know why? Because I can't prove my life to you on a foum. On this forum we can only debate according to what the Scripture says.

Even if we compared our experiences and one of us claims more than the other (which would not bother me as I have always said to many people that some Vineyard churches really flow in a greater measure of signs and wonders than most other churches I know), it still would not prove you right or me right. The only basis for truth is the BIBLE, the word of the Living God (John 17:17).

So in all of the "talk, talk, talk" that you are fed up with (which I find ironic because when I get fed up with the folks on your side of the debate I just leave the forum. It's better than complaining. Otherwise, I am here to debate based on SCRIPTURE), it all still boils down to, "what saith the Word."

[Jimbeaux]

Jim:

I am amazed that you write put up or shut up when you have no idea of what has occurred in any of our lives outside of this forum.

Is it not somewhat arrogant to proclaim that without knowing for a fact what has transpired in any of the lives and/or ministries you just put down.
But I hung out with WOF’ers for a decade, O. I believed what they taught and even taught it myself and, frankly, I did not see anything spectacular or out of the ordinary in any of the ministries I associated with, and some of them were leading proponents of WOF. Of course, I do not know how effective your ministry is or whether you are wealthy or not or regularly heal the sick or not. I do know, however, that my effectiveness in ministry has not changed since I abandoned WOF. I still, thank God, see the sick healed with great success.

What I am saying is show me your faith by your works (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&verse=18&version=50&context=verse).

I am not saying that you do not heal the sick. I trust that you do. But I am saying that your success in ministry does not come from your doctrine but from your trust in God, who will forever do what He deems proper and as He pleases in whatever we ask of Him. I am content to pray for the sick and leave the results up to God.

~Jim
Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

[Jimbeaux]

You could possibly be right Jim. Maybe us WoFers are only "talk, talk, talk." However, here is the problem I find with many brothers and sisters who claim to know Christ but are opposed to the things we say here: they seem to ignore that the talk is consistent with Scripture. Whether or not my life lines up with what I am saying on this forum is a moot point. Do you know why? Because I can't prove my life to you on a foum. On this forum we can only debate according to what the Scripture says.

Even if we compared our experiences and one of us claims more than the other (which would not bother me as I have always said to many people that some Vineyard churches really flow in a greater measure of signs and wonders than most other churches I know), it still would not prove you right or me right. The only basis for truth is the BIBLE, the word of the Living God (John 17:17).

So in all of the "talk, talk, talk" that you are fed up with (which I find ironic because when I get fed up with the folks on your side of the debate I just leave the forum. It's better than complaining. Otherwise, I am here to debate based on SCRIPTURE), it all still boils down to, "what saith the Word."

If that is your belief system, VW, more power to you. You are entitled to believe whatever doctrine you choose so long as it does not deny Christ. You feel it is consistent with scripture; I do not. But as far as our effectiveness in ministry I would wager my hard-earned that they are comparable because our success in ministry is not determined by which doctrines we prefer. Our success is determined by God through Christ and our willingness to submit to Him.

~Jim
Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

[Optimax]

But I hung out with WOF’ers for a decade, O. I believed what they taught and even taught it myself and, frankly, I did not see anything spectacular or out of the ordinary in any of the ministries I associated with, and some of them were leading proponents of WOF. Of course, I do not know how effective your ministry is or whether you are wealthy or not or regularly heal the sick or not. I do know, however, that my effectiveness in ministry has not changed since I abandoned WOF. I still, thank God, see the sick healed with great success.

~Jim
Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw



That you hung out with WOF'ers for that long probably explains the success of the healing ministry God has given you.:P:D

[victoryword]

If that is your belief system, VW, more power to you. You are entitled to believe whatever doctrine you choose so long as it does not deny Christ. You feel it is consistent with scripture; I do not. But as far as our effectiveness in ministry I would wager my hard-earned that they are comparable because our success in ministry is not determined by which doctrines we prefer. Our success is determined by God through Christ and our willingness to submit to Him.

~Jim

Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw



Dagnabbit JIm. Did you read my post? I am not defending a belief system. I am talking about us debating based on Scripture. You say that my belief system, which I assume you mean WoF, is not consistent with Scripture. If you are going to make that statement then take the Bible and prove me wrong. Make your case.

I am not so dedicated to WoF to where I will reject Scripture when it does not line up with some s-called WoF teaching. You best believe I will get rid of the belief rather than hold to anything that is in contrast with the Bible. The problem I see here on these forums is that you non-wofers would rather hold to your anti-wofism even if you have to deny the Bible to do it. I see the non-wof crowd constantly saying things that sound correct from an "orthodox" viewpoint, but are so far from the Bible that it is laughable. yet people confuse traditional orthodoxy with Scripture. This "sovereignty of God" teaching invented by Saint Augustine constantly rears its ugly head here and people will make that statement as though they are quoting Scripture. It is not the same. My opposition to tradional orthodoxy is not the same as denying the Bible.

So Jim, if my beliefs are inconsistent with the Bible, show me. I will change. I promise. If you can't then it is YOU that is doing the "talk, talk, talk."

[Jimbeaux]

Dagnabbit JIm. Did you read my post? I am not defending a belief system. I am talking about us debating based on Scripture. You say that my belief system, which I assume you mean WoF, is not consistent with Scripture. If you are going to make that statement then take the Bible and prove me wrong. Make your case.

I am not so dedicated to WoF to where I will reject Scripture when it does not line up with some s-called WoF teaching. You best believe I will get rid of the belief rather than hold to anything that is in contrast with the Bible. The problem I see here on these forums is that you non-wofers would rather hold to your anti-wofism even if you have to deny the Bible to do it. I see the non-wof crowd constantly saying things that sound correct from an "orthodox" viewpoint, but are so far from the Bible that it is laughable. yet people confuse traditional orthodoxy with Scripture. This "sovereignty of God" teaching invented by Saint Augustine constantly rears its ugly head here and people will make that statement as though they are quoting Scripture. It is not the same. My opposition to tradional orthodoxy is not the same as denying the Bible.

So Jim, if my beliefs are inconsistent with the Bible, show me. I will change. I promise. If you can't then it is YOU that is doing the "talk, talk, talk."

I have a better idea, you pick a uniquely WOF doctrine you firmly believe in. If I agree with it I will tell you (there are some WOF doctrines I am in agreement with). If I don’t, I will tell you why and I will do it, as I have done for months, from scripture.

(You do know that this can go on for months, don’t you.)

~Jim
Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

[victoryword]

I have a better idea, you pick a uniquely WOF doctrine you firmly believe in. If I agree with it I will tell you (there are some WOF doctrines I am in agreement with). If I don’t, I will tell you why and I will do it, as I have done for months, from scripture.

(You do know that this can go on for months, don’t you.)

~Jim

Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw



Let's start with this:

Do you believe that God fulfills His written promises when we exercise faith in them without us having to have some "revelation" that what is written is actually His will for a specific individual? Or do you believe that the promises of God are not guaranteed for every person who would read and claim them?

The so-called WoF believes the former. If you disagree with them and agree with the latter, take the Bible and show me why the WoF is wrong and why it has to be the second. I look forward to your answer.

[Jimbeaux]

Let's start with this:

Do you believe that God fulfills His written promises when we exercise faith in them without us having to have some "revelation" that what is written is actually His will for a specific individual? Or do you believe that the promises of God are not guaranteed for every person who would read and claim them?

The so-called WoF believes the former. If you disagree with them and agree with the latter, take the Bible and show me why the WoF is wrong and why it has to be the second. I look forward to your answer.

Yes, I believe God’s promises, when rightly divided and understood, are His divine will and guarantees. But I do not believe that you can “claim” any isolated text as a “guarantee” without comparing spiritual things with spiritual, scripture with scripture, that isolated scripture with every other related scripture in the Bible—no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1.20).

For instance, you cannot claim Mark 11.24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2011.24%20;&version=50;) as a carte blanche guaranteed promise without balancing it with 1 John 5.14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205.14-15;&version=50;). If something, say an isolated solitary text, you believe is a guarantee then, if it is a correct interpretation and, indeed, a guarantee, then it will work every time, for everybody, without fail. If it doesn’t, you need to go back to the drawing board and determine what you have misunderstood.

~Jim
Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

[dkbwarrior]

If something, say an isolated solitary text, you believe is a guarantee then, if it is a correct interpretation and, indeed, a guarantee, then it will work every time, for everybody, without fail. If it doesn’t, you need to go back to the drawing board and determine what you have misunderstood.




According to James this is not true:

5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
-James 1:5-8

James says that God will give wisdom to any man that asks him, but only if he asks in faith.

James said that if you don't ask in faith, you are double minded, and likely wont get anything, let alone wisdom.

We know what it means to ask in faith. Jesus told us. Speak and believe that what you say comes to pass, and do not doubt in your heart that it will.

This fits well with James if praying for something, but doubting in your heart that it will come to pass, is being double minded.

So just because God has promised wisdom to any that ask, does not mean that it will happen every time without fail, when there are conditions that are not fully met.

But if you ask in faith, Jesus said that you would have what you ask for. And this isn't said in just one spot, as you well know. It is said in more than ten places in the New Testament, in various ways.

You definately need to compare scripture with scripture, but not scripture with the philosophy of men basing their interpretation on what they see with their eyes and hear with their ears. Nor on the vain traditions of men. Scripture interprets scripture, experience does not.

Peace...

Peace...

[JimfromOhio]

You are so confused you cant seem to even read a sentence without reading your own wishful thinking into it.

When Jesus says that faith believes that it receives what it asks for; and Joe says that God may say yes, may say no, and may say wait; then it is impossible for Joe to believe that he recieves.

Let me put it a different way:

1) Jesus said to believe that you receive what you ask for and you will have it

2) Joe believed that you may or may not receive what you ask for when he prayed and didn't get it

Do those appear the same to you?

How bout if we assign numerals to the words so that mabey you can see clearly.

Believe=1
Will Receive=2
Have=3
May or May Not Receive=4

Jesus said that faith believes (1) that it recieves (2) what it asks for, and then they will have it (3). To make it simple, (1+2=3).

Joe believed (1) that he may or may not receive (4) what he asked for, and then didn't get it. To make it simple, (1+4=5). Joe then says, I had faith, but I didn't get it, therefore that scripture doesn't mean what it says.

The question is, did Joe excercise the kind of faith that Jesus described?

The answer is no, (just in case that was to complex for you...)

Faith, + believing without doubting, = having. That is the rules.

There is one thing that I have learned in my christian walk of faith. Truly believing in your heart that something will happen is alot harder than it seems to appear at first blush.

We were created in the image of God with the spiritual capacity for creative faith, just like our heavenly father. But we have been so weighted down with sin and condemnation and fear, that it takes some of us a lifetime to have enough faith to believe our way out of a cold, let alone move a mountain.

It isn't that Gods Word isn't true, it is simply that we have along way to go to begin to even scratch the surface of what God has in store for us. The one sure way to ensure that we never arrive there is to say it is Gods fault that we cant believe our way out of a wet paper bag, because that must be His will for us don't you know?

If you truly want a definition of rubbish, it is just that, blaming God for our own inability, and calling it His Will. What a load of garbage!

Peace...
In the Bible... there are evidences of the following:

1. Physically healed but still eternally dead. (Those who have been healed by Christ and Apostles have REFUSED to believe to be spiritually healed but still were physically healed).

2. Spiritually & Physically healed and will live eternally but died anyway and went back to dust.

The true basic theology is that God does not guarantee physical healing for all believers, at least not in this life, all believers will eventually be healed of all physical aliments as well as spiritual aliments.

[JimfromOhio]

According to James this is not true:

5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
-James 1:5-8

James says that God will give wisdom to any man that asks him, but only if he asks in faith.

James said that if you don't ask in faith, you are double minded, and likely wont get anything, let alone wisdom.

We know what it means to ask in faith. Jesus told us. Speak and believe that what you say comes to pass, and do not doubt in your heart that it will.

This fits well with James if praying for something, but doubting in your heart that it will come to pass, is being double minded.

So just because God has promised wisdom to any that ask, does not mean that it will happen every time without fail, when there are conditions that are not fully met.

But if you ask in faith, Jesus said that you would have what you ask for. And this isn't said in just one spot, as you well know. It is said in more than ten places in the New Testament, in various ways.

You definately need to compare scripture with scripture, but not scripture with the philosophy of men basing their interpretation on what they see with their eyes and hear with their ears. Nor on the vain traditions of men. Scripture interprets scripture, experience does not.

Peace...

Peace...

What this all come down to of "merit of faith" in order to be healed according to the doctrine you believe in.

Does God really dare not make that requirement of measure of our faithfulness?

I am seeing there is a doctrine of faith that is very vain and deceitful, which is prejudicial to Christianity while it pleases men's fancies ruins people's faith. No one will be making progress with God until the eyes are lifted to the faithfulness of God and rather than faith in faith.

Biblicially, Faith is kindled and is preserved and made strong by grace alone.

[victoryword]

Yes, I believe God’s promises, when rightly divided and understood, are His divine will and guarantees. But I do not believe that you can “claim” any isolated text as a “guarantee” without comparing spiritual things with spiritual, scripture with scripture, that isolated scripture with every other related scripture in the Bible—no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1.20).

For instance, you cannot claim Mark 11.24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2011.24%20;&version=50;) as a carte blanche guaranteed promise without balancing it with 1 John 5.14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205.14-15;&version=50;). If something, say an isolated solitary text, you believe is a guarantee then, if it is a correct interpretation and, indeed, a guarantee, then it will work every time, for everybody, without fail. If it doesn’t, you need to go back to the drawing board and determine what you have misunderstood.

~Jim

Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw



Okay, great. I agree that we cannot claim an isolated text and that 1 John 5:14, 15 is the criteria for receiving answers. Now, let's move further. Is James 5:14-16 representative of God's will:

Jas 5:14 If you are sick, call for the church leaders. Have them pray for you and anoint you with olive oil in the name of the Lord.
Jas 5:15 (Prayers offered in faith will save those who are sick, and the Lord will cure them.) If you have sinned, you will be forgiven.
Jas 5:16 So admit your sins to each other, and pray for each other so that you will be healed. Prayers offered by those who have God's approval are effective.

Do you believe that the statements in the passage above is the general will of God for all of his people or is it subjected to further revelation from God depending upon each person who is sick? Please base your answer on Scripture. And please don't try to use 1 John 5:14, 15 to make a case for believing that the James passage may not be a promise to every believer unless you are willing to make a similar application for 1 John 1:7-9.

I look forward to your answer.

[JimfromOhio]

Okay, great. I agree that we cannot claim an isolated text and that 1 John 5:14, 15 is the criteria for receiving answers. Now, let's move further. Is James 5:14-16 representative of God's will:

Jas 5:14 If you are sick, call for the church leaders. Have them pray for you and anoint you with olive oil in the name of the Lord.
Jas 5:15 (Prayers offered in faith will save those who are sick, and the Lord will cure them.) If you have sinned, you will be forgiven.
Jas 5:16 So admit your sins to each other, and pray for each other so that you will be healed. Prayers offered by those who have God's approval are effective.
Do you believe that the statements in the passage above is the general will of God for all of his people or is it subjected to further revelation from God depending upon each person who is sick? Please base your answer on Scripture. And please don't try to use 1 John 5:14, 15 to make a case for believing that the James passage may not be a promise to every believer unless you are willing to make a similar application for 1 John 1:7-9.

I look forward to your answer.

I do have a question regarding James 5 relating to type of sickness being addressed here is associated with sin, so that it is a sickness that is chastening. If a believer is sick because of sin, he or she will know it. The sick believer is to call for the elders of the church in this situation to indicate willingness to deal with the sin in his life.

Not all sickness is chastening since many are either born with it or as part of God's will. John 9 (blind mand) makes it clear that not all suffering is a result of personal sin, the sickness mentioned in James 5 is a result of sin.

Calling for the elders of the church and letting them “pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven".

".......if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him". Sickness do not be forgiven but sins associated with sickness shall be forgiven.

We are commanded confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed" (James 5:13- 16).

So what is the differences between sickness related to actual sins by an believer and sickness that a believer was born in it or resulted in God's will (as explained in John 9)?

[probinson]

Well, see, the thing is.....

Nope. Just can't bring myself to post. I just don't have it in me tonight.

Except of course for this, which is how I felt after I read through this thread;

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h128/petesarah/big_headed_tiny_dog_chasing_tail_lg.gif


Since I don't think anything valuable ever comes from these discussions (except for the occasional nugget), why don't we make a game out of it? You know, kind of like poking fun at ourselves and this never-ending discussion...

2 points for every time someone says "you have not because you ask not"
4 points every time someone says "according to your faith"
4 points for every person that mentions Paul's thorn
5 points for telling someone to look at the whole of scripture
6 points for mentioning Job (DOUBLE BONUS if you also mention Job's friends)
1 point for every mention of Joni Tada
15 points when Jimbeaux mentions his paraplegic friend "T"
x2 multiplier if we can get both Jims and Dids posting all at the same time....
You get the idea... :sorry:

Who wants to keep score? :holy:

[dkbwarrior]

Well, see, the thing is.....

Nope. Just can't bring myself to post. I just don't have it in me tonight.

Except of course for this, which is how I felt after I read through this thread;

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h128/petesarah/big_headed_tiny_dog_chasing_tail_lg.gif





Since I don't think anything valuable ever comes from these discussions (except for the occasional nugget), why don't we make a game out of it? You know, kind of like poking fun at ourselves and this never-ending discussion...

2 points for every time someone says "you have not because you ask not"
4 points every time someone says "according to your faith"
4 points for every person that mentions Paul's thorn
5 points for telling someone to look at the whole of scripture
6 points for mentioning Job (DOUBLE BONUS if you also mention Job's friends)
1 point for every mention of Joni Tada
15 points when Jimbeaux mentions his paraplegic friend "T"
x2 multiplier if we can get both Jims and Dids posting all at the same time....
You get the idea... :sorry:

Who wants to keep score? :holy:

I am shamed that I wasn't mentioned in your post. I am obviously not being provoking enough...;)

Can I at least get points for evey mention of Mark 11?

Peace...

[probinson]

I am shamed that I wasn't mentioned in your post. I am obviously not being provoking enough...;)

Can I at least get points for evey mention of Mark 11?

Peace...
^_^

Only if you make sure to sing it (http://www.encoretrax.net/vdemos/1909-vd.m3u)...

♫ ♫ Mark 11:23, is real to me. And right next door, is Mark 11:24 ... ♫ ♫

I'll give you 50 points for that!

[JimfromOhio]

I believe that God can sovereignly choose to heal whomever and whenever according to His will:
1. The gospel is good news about our sin problem, not our sicknesses (Rom. 3:23; 6:23).
2. Christ’s atonement focuses primarily upon our sins (iniquities), not our sicknesses (Lev. 16:1-34; Is. 53:5-6, 11-12; 1 Pet. 2:24).
3. Christ died for our sins, not our sicknesses (1 Cor. 15:3).
4. Christ was made sin, not sickness (2 Cor. 5:21).
5. Christ forgave our sins, not our sicknesses (1 John 2:12).
6. Christ gave Himself for our sins, not our sickness (Gal. 1:4).
7. Our bodies are corruptible and thus subject to sickness (1 Cor. 15:42-44).
8. We will all die physically (Heb. 9:27).