God's Word: A Revelation of His Will [Archive]

victoryword

4th July 2008, 04:46 PM

The constant debates concerning healing and other material blessings and whether or not the believer has any guarantee of appropriating them often centers around one main point: whether or not we can presume that these blessings are God's will.

Many detractors believe that God is not under any obligation to give us any material blessings at all. We can ask God for them but we have no basis for assurance that we will receive them because it may not be God's will to give them to us. Therefore, to them it would be wise to succeed each prayer with, "if it be thy will."

Some deny that there are any promises in the Bible concerning these material blessings. For those Biblical passages that may appear to be teaching these things, we are offered a variety of interpretations that dissuade us from accepting them as either promises that can be claimed by today's believers or the plain denial that they are promises at all. Many othrs acknowledge that there are some promises in the Bible concerning some particular blessings, but God being sovereign, is under no obligation to fulfill these promises in everyone's life.

However, if God has told us that the Bible is His Word, and he has placed specific promises therein, then should we not expect a performance of them. The Bible seems to imply such:

Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
God's Word is a revelation of His intent and purposes for his people. God promised to do the very thing He said he would do. For Him to do otherwise would make Him a liar. In the above passage we are shown that the thing that keeps God from being a liar is the fact that the very thing He said, He would do and the very thing he spoke, He would make good on it. In other words, he is saying that we can bank on His Word and expect a fulfilment.

When Mary was given a promise from God, she did not pray and add, "if it be thy will." She recognized the Word from God as His will for her life:
Luk 1:37 For no promise from God will be impossible of fulfilment."
Luk 1:38 "I am the Lord's maidservant," Mary replied; "may it be with me in accordance with your words!" And then the angel left her. (Weymouth New Testament)
We can accept the Word of God as a revelation of his will for us. If he said it, He will do it. If he spoke it, he will make good on it. Like Mary, we can say "Let it be" rather than "if it be thy will."

franky67

4th July 2008, 05:29 PM

didaskalos

4th July 2008, 05:50 PM

Faithful Love

4th July 2008, 08:48 PM

We can accept the Word of God as a revelation of his will for us. If he said it, He will do it. If he spoke it, he will make good on it. Like Mary, we can say "Let it be" rather than "if it be thy will."

:amen::thumbsup::clap:

According to your faith, let it be done unto you. Matt 9:29

ShammahBenJudah

5th July 2008, 07:54 PM

JimfromOhio

5th July 2008, 09:42 PM

If you are talking about eternal salvation, God's promise is eternal because Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant. I love this verse, Titus 1:2 that said "faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time."

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Faith is the foundation believing that the promises of God yet to come to pass will come to pass.

Faith is indeed the title deed for things hoped for. Saving faith is placed in something that was promised to happen. Faith is believing something that God promises will happen, not because we will it to happen, but because He PROMISED THEY will happen.

God's promise is great, but it is as great as we experience spiritual growth from God's perspectives by cultivating the knowledge of God while at the same time cultivate our faith. As we are training for our spiritual growth, we look NOT AT our faith but in Christ of WHO we have faith in, who is THE author and finisher. There is a verse in the Bible that God promises that there won’t be anything so bad happen to us that we’re not able to bear it.

Hebrews 11:39-40
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

One thing I have learned over the years relating to the "doctrine of salvation". I have to remember that the Bible does not present faith as simply "mental assent to the facts of the gospel" but rather true saving faith involves repentance from my own sin and a complete trust in the work of Christ to save me from sin and make me righteous. Not to make me physically heal today or anytime soon unless it is God's will that I am to be healed. I don't really know if its God's will for me to be healed however, biblically, I do KNOW what God wants from me according to His written word. By faith, can anyone able to walk on WATER? I have the ability to walk on water only if its according to God's will. Discernment is the means to divide light from darkness, truth from falsehood, right motive from wrong motive, selflessness from selfishness.

My main issue is this: Doctrines sounds very good but life is not so simple. Divine healing an important doctrine that leads people to false hope or understanding God's will whether they are healed or not since in the past 2,000 years that many Christians have been ill, sick, and died?

I am NOT telling people about such doctrines and I don't want to be responsible for decieving another person when I share the good news of eternal life. Jesus is my Shephard who keeps me safe, John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand." That means, I will be fully healed one day according to His will and time. Not ours.

God will judge those who explain false doctrines. We just have to be careful, with a reminder of this verse, Matthew 15:9: "In vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men." We have to remember that doctrines are man-centered more than God-center. Christian faith is not to manipulate and intimidate people with doctrines but rather allow the Holy Spirit to do the work in convicting people's hearts. God alone determines who is to be healed or not even though His followers are saved (believers).

Jimbeaux

6th July 2008, 06:09 AM

What is “wealth” and “prosperity” to God? I mean, do you think a million dollars impresses God? How about two million? How about a billion?

Set your affection on things above (spiritual things), not on things on the earth (material things). ~Colossians 3.2

~Jim

Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

Deba

6th July 2008, 09:05 AM

This is so hokey. You guys are making all these rules and conditions that have nothing to do with God. You are projecting your own stuff into being the image of God. Turn the mirror around.

ShammahBenJudah

6th July 2008, 10:50 AM

This is so hokey. You guys are making all these rules and conditions that have nothing to do with God. You are projecting your own stuff into being the image of God. Turn the mirror around.

:thumbsup::amen:

*checking to see if I have any toes left*

dkbwarrior

6th July 2008, 11:24 AM

This is so hokey. You guys are making all these rules and conditions that have nothing to do with God. You are projecting your own stuff into being the image of God. Turn the mirror around.

What is hokey, the OP saying that Gods Word is a revelation of His Will? Or the disjointed ramblings of Jims posts, that never quite make sense to me?

Peace...

dkbwarrior

6th July 2008, 11:36 AM

My main issue is this: Doctrines sounds very good but life is not so simple. Divine healing an important doctrine that leads people to false hope or understanding God's will whether they are healed or not since in the past 2,000 years that many Christians have been ill, sick, and died?

Divine healing is a doctrine that leads people to false hope? I understand what you are saying, but hope is never false. God is hope. When all else is gone and God is all in all, there will still be three things, faith, hope and love. Because these are the very nature of God.

Hope sees what it wants...
Faith speaks what it wants...
Love guides both to only wanting the best for others first, and then itself...

Peace...

JimfromOhio

6th July 2008, 12:13 PM

Divine healing is a doctrine that leads people to false hope? I understand what you are saying, but hope is never false. God is hope. When all else is gone and God is all in all, there will still be three things, faith, hope and love. Because these are the very nature of God.

Hope sees what it wants...
Faith speaks what it wants...
Love guides both to only wanting the best for others first, and then itself...

Peace...

Not wants but what God's will is. We need to understand what God desires, not what man desires. Proverbs 13:4 The sluggard craves and gets nothing, but the desires of the diligent are fully satisfied.

Faith rests not primarily upon God's promises, but rather on God's Character. Teachers who teaches and encourages people to focus on certain scriptures while ignoring other scriptures are in danger of accepting unrealistically false teachings and deadly. God will not lead us except for His OWN WILL and He cannot and will not lead us if we resist His will.

dkbwarrior

6th July 2008, 12:46 PM

Not wants but what God's will is. We need to understand what God desires, not what man desires. Proverbs 13:4 The sluggard craves and gets nothing, but the desires of the diligent are fully satisfied.

Faith rests not primarily upon God's promises, but rather on God's Character. Teachers who teaches and encourages people to focus on certain scriptures while ignoring other scriptures are in danger of accepting unrealistically false teachings and deadly. God will not lead us except for His OWN WILL and He cannot and will not lead us if we resist His will.

I was speaking for the perspective of Gods hope, faith and love, not mans, but that is neither here nor there.

Jesus told the disciples that Lazarus sickness was not unto death. Then he died. Was that false hope?

What you call false hope is just your inablility to grasp what healing faith is.

You have a very good grip on saving faith. I can gaurantee you that God wants you to be healed, not now, but right now. Yeaterday in fact. 2000 years ago to be precise.

I know many people that have debilitating sicknessess/diseases that believe that Gods will is for them to be healed and they are not at all dissaponted. They don't feel it is false hope.

They understand that faith is progressive. It takes time. The fist step is to realize that God has already provided for ones healing. That is the first step. Until you get there, you don't have any faith to work with.

STEP I
FIND AND BELIEVE THE PROMISE:

The bible says that we are healed by His stripes. So we are. That is that. Let God be true but every man a liar. He said it that settles it.

Find as many scriptures as you can and choose to believe that what God promised is true

Once you pass step one, you go to step two.

STEP II
FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH

Believe that you receive it

Hold fast to your confession of healing

Stand fast in the faith

Don't be double minded

The trying of your faith works patience, so be patient

Continue to see your doctor and take your pills and everything else you need to do to mitigate the symptoms so you can function while you are waiting

STEP III
BE LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT

While you are waiting, be sensitive to the Holy Spirit. The only things that can stop your healing are unforgiveness, condemnation and/or losing faith.

1) Unforgiveness:
We only have two commands under the New Covenant, and one is love. Love forgives. Unforgiveness will stop one from receiving because faith works by love.

2) Condemnation:
The Bible says that if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence towards God, and know that we have the things we petition for. It is not so much sin itself that blocks us, that was taken care of on the cross, it is our own condemnation.

3) Unbelief:
If you get tired and give up, or lose hope and start to think that it is never going to happen, then of course it wont, unless God uses someone elses faith to affect a gift of healing or other grace on your behalf.

You see, the bottom line is that faith never gives up. When someone comes to me and says, "I tried that faith stuff, and I didn't get healed". Well, you can see the problem.

You might have tried to have faith that you were healed, but you don't have any now, or you wouldn't be saying it doesn't work.

Peace...

JimfromOhio

6th July 2008, 01:10 PM

I was speaking for the perspective of Gods hope, faith and love, not mans, but that is neither here nor there.

Jesus told the disciples that Lazarus sickness was not unto death. Then he died. Was that false hope?

What you call false hope is just your inablility to grasp what healing faith is.

You have a very good grip on saving faith. I can gaurantee you that God wants you to be healed, not now, but right now. Yeaterday in fact. 2000 years ago to be precise.

I know many people that have debilitating sicknessess/diseases that believe that Gods will is for them to be healed and they are not at all dissaponted. They don't feel it is false hope.

They understand that faith is progressive. It takes time. The fist step is to realize that God has already provided for ones healing. That is the first step. Until you get there, you don't have any faith to work with.

STEP I
FIND AND BELIEVE THE PROMISE:

The bible says that we are healed by His stripes. So we are. That is that. Let God be true but every man a liar. He said it that settles it.

Find as many scriptures as you can and choose to believe that what God promised is true

Once you pass step one, you go to step two.

STEP II
FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH

Believe that you receive it

Hold fast to your confession of healing

Stand fast in the faith

Don't be double minded

The trying of your faith works patience, so be patient

Continue to see your doctor and take your pills and everything else you need to do to mitigate the symptoms so you can function while you are waiting

STEP III
BE LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT

While you are waiting, be sensitive to the Holy Spirit. The only things that can stop your healing are unforgiveness, condemnation and/or losing faith.

1) Unforgiveness:
We only have two commands under the New Covenant, and one is love. Love forgives. Unforgiveness will stop one from receiving because faith works by love.

2) Condemnation:
The Bible says that if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence towards God, and know that we have the things we petition for. It is not so much sin itself that blocks us, that was taken care of on the cross, it is our own condemnation.

3) Unbelief:
If you get tired and give up, or lose hope and start to think that it is never going to happen, then of course it wont, unless God uses someone elses faith to affect a gift of healing or other grace on your behalf.

You see, the bottom line is that faith never gives up. When someone comes to me and says, "I tried that faith stuff, and I didn't get healed". Well, you can see the problem.

You might have tried to have faith that you were healed, but you don't have any now, or you wouldn't be saying it doesn't work.

Peace...

A Christian tries to act like a mature believer HOWEVER this Christian is really a child at heart because his/her life revolves around "what is good for me."

Are we Christians that seeks honor, health and wealth?

Or

Are we Christians that seeks God and His will?

Faith is subjective, but it is sound only when it corresponds with objective reality. If we come to Christ primarily to find fulfillment or to escape from bad habits, Jesus may not be what we are looking for. Victory is the Holy Spirit convicted us and Christ is us, we all experience the power of the Holy Spirit to gain victory over sin, we may never attain total dominance over our drives and passions.

God's promise is great, but it is as great as we experience spiritual growth from God's perspectives by cultivating the knowledge of God while at the same time cultivate our faith. As we are training for our spiritual growth, we look NOT AT our faith but in Christ of WHO we have faith in, who is THE author and finisher. "Let us run with patience the race that is set before us." (Hebrews 12:1).

dkbwarrior

6th July 2008, 01:41 PM

A Christian tries to act like a mature believer HOWEVER this Christian is really a child at heart because his/her life revolves around "what is good for me."

Are we Christians that seeks honor, health and wealth?

Or

Are we Christians that seeks God and His will?

When I first got saved I read some material be many different authors that talked alot about suffering for Christ, and God using sickness to teach us etc.

I was fine with that, because I only wanted to please God.

But then I learned the Bible.

I found out what pleases God. Faith please God.

6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
-Hebrews 11:6

The bible also says that God takes pleasure in the properity of His servants. There are opnly three things that I know of that the Bible directly says that God is pleased with.

1) A meek and contrite heart
2) Faith that believes He rewards
3) The properity of His servants

There are many more that we can infer, or course, but these are said directly.

Faith is subjective, but it is sound only when it corresponds with objective reality.

Objective reality? Like sacrificing your son believing that God will raise him from the dead? Or calling yourself the father of many nations for 25 long years when you have no child and your wife is past childbearing age? I wont even continue. Faith is all obout believing the unseen. Objective reality is subjectable to Gods Word.

If we come to Christ primarily to find fulfillment or to escape from bad habits, Jesus may not be what we are looking for. Victory is the Holy Spirit convicted us and Christ is us, we all experience the power of the Holy Spirit to gain victory over sin, we may never attain total dominance over our drives and passions.

4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
-Romans 2:4

19We love him, because he first loved us.
-1 John 4:19

God's promise is great, but it is as great as we experience spiritual growth from God's perspectives by cultivating the knowledge of God while at the same time cultivate our faith. As we are training for our spiritual growth, we look NOT AT our faith but in Christ of WHO we have faith in, who is THE author and finisher. "Let us run with patience the race that is set before us." (Hebrews 12:1).

Despite the obvious intent of most of this faulty teaching, the purpose of the christian life is not to suffer through this life barely making it to show how much suffering a christain can endure. Just look at Auschwitz and understand that suffering doesn't prove anything to anybody. Anyone can suffer.

The purpose of the christian life is to take the exceeding great and precious promises of God that were ratified by His own blood on the cross and bring them into manifestation in our lives and the lives of those around us by faith, thus partaking of the divine nature of God, because this is how God operates.

2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
-2 Peter 4:2-4

Peace...

JimfromOhio

6th July 2008, 02:00 PM

When I first got saved I read some material be many different authors that talked alot about suffering for Christ, and God using sickness to teach us etc.

I was fine with that, because I only wanted to please God.

But then I learned the Bible.

I found out what pleases God. Faith please God.

6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
-Hebrews 11:6

The bible also says that God takes pleasure in the properity of His servants. There are opnly three things that I know of that the Bible directly says that God is pleased with.

1) A meek and contrite heart
2) Faith that believes He rewards
3) The properity of His servants

There are many more that we can infer, or course, but these are said directly.

Objective reality? Like sacrificing your son believing that God will raise him from the dead? Or calling yourself the father of many nations for 25 long years when you have no child and your wife is past childbearing age? I wont even continue. Faith is all obout believing the unseen. Objective reality is subjectable to Gods Word.

4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
-Romans 2:4

19We love him, because he first loved us.
-1 John 4:19

Despite the obvious intent of most of this faulty teaching, the purpose of the christian life is not to suffer through this life barely making it to show how much suffering a christain can endure. Just look at Auschwitz and understand that suffering doesn't prove anything to anybody. Anyone can suffer.

The purpose of the christian life is to take the exceeding great and precious promises of God that were ratified by His own blood on the cross and bring them into manifestation in our lives and the lives of those around us by faith, thus partaking of the divine nature of God, because this is how God operates.

2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
-2 Peter 4:2-4

Peace...

Ever since I was saved over 35 years ago, This is where I learned many years ago. No sinners seeks God unless God chose them. The Bible affirms that God is sovereign, that man gets no credit for his/her own believing. Over the years, I have learned to understand the true nature of the Christian life which is unpredictable and expanding called "sanctification". One thing I have learned is that God's will don't appear to be "logic" but rather His will is alot different than mine.

Without faith it is impossible to please God, but not all faith pleases God. Faith, as Paul saw it and wrote in his letters that Faith is a living, flaming thing leading to surrender and obedience to the commandments of Christ that is lead by the Holy Spirit, not by man.

After going through Word of Faith doctrines, I have learned to be careful how I read and need to look from doctrinal perspective rather than each of our own satisfaction. Lately, I have learned to stay away from Word of Faith and many Pentecostal denominations that follow similar doctrines because some of their teachings are not sound.

dkbwarrior

6th July 2008, 02:13 PM

Ever since I was saved over 35 years ago, This is where I learned many years ago. No sinners seeks God unless God chose them. The Bible affirms that God is sovereign, that man gets no credit for his/her own believing. Over the years, I have learned to understand the true nature of the Christian life which is unpredictable and expanding called "sanctification". One thing I have learned is that God's will don't appear to be "logic" but rather His will is alot different than mine.

Without faith it is impossible to please God, but not all faith pleases God. Faith, as Paul saw it and wrote in his letters that Faith is a living, flaming thing leading to surrender and obedience to the commandments of Christ that is lead by the Holy Spirit, not by man.

After going through Word of Faith doctrines, I have learned to be careful how I read and need to look from doctrinal perspective rather than each of our own satisfaction. Lately, I have learned to stay away from Word of Faith and many Pentecostal denominations that follow similar doctrines because some of their teachings are not sound.

Well, if the ones that we debate are the unsound ones that you have a problem with, then they are definately unsound to your beliefs. I'll give you that.

But then they are very sound to the Bible, and to the image of God as displayed in the life and ministry of His Son Jesus Christ while on earth.

The sophistry and philosophical doctrines of false humility and suffering under the bondage of the enemy "for the Glory of God" are not found in scripture, and though they may be comfortable intellectually to those who do not wish to engage in the good fight of faith, they are not life giving. Not only are they not life giving to those that promote them, but they lead others into the same level of bondage.

Only the Word is life, and we should only follow those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Peace...

JimfromOhio

6th July 2008, 02:25 PM

Well, if the ones that we debate are the unsound ones that you have a problem with, then they are definately unsound to your beliefs. I'll give you that.

But then they are very sound to the Bible, and to the image of God as displayed in the life and ministry of His Son Jesus Christ while on earth.

The sophistry and philosophical doctrines of false humility and suffering under the bondage of the enemy "for the Glory of God" are not found in scripture, and though they may be comfortable intellectually to those who do not wish to engage in the good fight of faith, they are not life giving. Not only are they not life giving to those that promote them, but they lead others into the same level of bondage.

Only the Word is life, and we should only follow those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Peace...

The Bible illumines the dark corners of our own hearts and minds by exposing our OWN sin but at the same time reveals the way of truth. God reveals Himself primarily through the pages of Scripture; that is why I believe the Bible as my absolute authority. 1 Peter 4:11 instructs me to handle biblical truth: "If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God." The Bible is true, then it is also authoritative. As divinely revealed truth, it carries the full weight of God's own authority. God's Word (the Bible) sometimes wounds us deeply and it is imperative because through the Bible, God speaks loudly. The Word of God (Bible) rebukes US as we read so that we may see our OWN faults (not others). The Bible illumines the dark corners of our own hearts and minds by exposing our OWN sin but at the same time reveals the way of truth.

God wants to conform us to the image of Christ that He brings a purposeful discipline into our lives, He brings training into our lives through difficulty. There are many people who never see past the pain because they’re self-absorbed, they’re self-centered, they’re caught up in their own comfort. The main thing to understand and remember is that Jesus is OUR SHEPHERD that He will supply all our needs (Phil. 4:19) and that He knows everything about our lives (Ps. 139:3), cares about us (1 Pet. 5:7), has the power for every difficulty (Ps. 62:11), is perfecting US to be like Christ (Phil. 1:6), and that nothing escapes Him (Ps. 147:5), that will lead us to be stable, not anxious living.

I am just careful and not being gullible accepting doctrines that are self-centered rather than God-centered.

dkbwarrior

6th July 2008, 02:32 PM

The Bible illumines the dark corners of our own hearts and minds by exposing our OWN sin but at the same time reveals the way of truth. God reveals Himself primarily through the pages of Scripture; that is why I believe the Bible as my absolute authority. 1 Peter 4:11 instructs me to handle biblical truth: "If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God." The Bible is true, then it is also authoritative. As divinely revealed truth, it carries the full weight of God's own authority. God's Word (the Bible) sometimes wounds us deeply and it is imperative because through the Bible, God speaks loudly. The Word of God (Bible) rebukes US as we read so that we may see our OWN faults (not others). The Bible illumines the dark corners of our own hearts and minds by exposing our OWN sin but at the same time reveals the way of truth.

God wants to conform us to the image of Christ that He brings a purposeful discipline into our lives, He brings training into our lives through difficulty. There are many people who never see past the pain because they’re self-absorbed, they’re self-centered, they’re caught up in their own comfort. The main thing to understand and remember is that Jesus is OUR SHEPHERD that He will supply all our needs (Phil. 4:19) and that He knows everything about our lives (Ps. 139:3), cares about us (1 Pet. 5:7), has the power for every difficulty (Ps. 62:11), is perfecting US to be like Christ (Phil. 1:6), and that nothing escapes Him (Ps. 147:5), that will lead us to be stable, not anxious living.

I am just careful and not being gullible accepting doctrines that are self-centered rather than God-centered.

I agree with every word of this post.

Peace...

didaskalos

6th July 2008, 07:49 PM

Jesus healed all who came to Him.
If Jesus was hokey... I will be hokey with Him!!!!:thumbsup:

Hokey.....^_^
That sounds like a Jerry Sienfield word...

Or maybe a Polish pastry.

"Give me a hokey and a cold glass of milk!"

JimfromOhio

6th July 2008, 07:56 PM

JimfromOhio

6th July 2008, 08:00 PM

One example is this: Jesus didn't heal Lazarus

To the story about Jesus and Lazarus, when Martha, the sister of Lazarus said to Jesus: "Lord, by this time he stinketh; for he hath been dead four days." She sounded like the rest of us by saying "Oh, forget it; it can't be done!" even though she believes in the "resurrection" that Jesus taught earlier. However, she didn't realized that Jesus was about to resurrect her brother. The seriousness of the problem was just too much for her and her thoughts were on the corpse (even though Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping). Jesus has the power to heal, even the dead (who appear to be sleeping). In physical sense, when Jesus said "sleep" which means in our term: DEATH. This kind of death God can resurrects easily and resurrection is as easy as physical healing for HIM. In spiritual sense, when Jesus said "death" which usually means eternal death.

didaskalos

6th July 2008, 10:56 PM

Are you sure that Jesus healed "ALL" who came to Him? I don't think so.
You are correct.
He healed all who would believe.

didaskalos

6th July 2008, 10:57 PM

JimfromOhio

7th July 2008, 07:24 AM

Ok.
If you want people to die and then be resurrected from the dead, that is fine too.
Philippians 1:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=1&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

victoryword

7th July 2008, 08:35 AM

I'm thinking there's too much self-oriented teaching about God's promises.

If we take the time to learn what it is God's will for us to do, we will know what it is God's will to do for us.

If we'll be about His business, He'll be about ours.

I think you missed the point.

First, most of us believe that the Bible is indeed the Word of the Living God. He inspired this Word as He moved upon men of old:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works (2 Tim. 3:16, 17; see also 2 Pet. 1:20, 21)

If we believe that the Bible is the written Word of God to us then we will accept it as a revelation of what He wants us to do in obedience to Him but also what He wants us to have as a blessing from Him.

When confronted by Satan in the wilderness, Jesus did not look for any new revelations from the Father, even after He had heard the voice of God during His baptism (Mat. 3:17; 2 Pet. 1:17). Instead, He appealed to that which "is written" (Mat. 4:1-11; Luke 4:1-14). You find Him referring to the SCRIPTURE throughout His lifetime, assuming that the SCRIPTURE was the final authority revealing God's will, even when it concerned Himself and His own ministry (Mat. 21:42; 22:29; Mark 12:10; Luke 4:21; 24:27, 32, 45; John 5:39; 7:38, 42; 10:35).

Again, Jesus did not appeal to extra-biblical revelation nor did He appeal to "divine providence" as tests of God's will. On the contrary, when Jesus was confronted with negative circumstances it seems that He would confront them as though they were NOT the will of God. When storms came that would kill Him and His disciples, He rebuked them. When people came who were demon possessed and sicked, he delivered and healed them. When people were hungry, He provided food.

We have no right to expect God to give us any revelation of His will beyond that which is written (this is not to include personal guidance for issues in our lives, but even that will not contradict that "which is written"). People often refer to "the Providence of God," believing that all of the circumstances in our lives were somehow given by God for various reasons. The assumption is that all of these things are the will of God even when they contradict God's promises.

One may believe that "there's too much self-oriented teaching about God's promises" but the Bible tells us, "Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is." (Eph. 5:17). If it was just a matter of just "being about His business" and then everything will fall into our lap, then there would have been no need for Him to provide us with 66 books that teach us both what He expects of us and what he wants to do for us.

James 1:5-7 says that God wants to give us wisdom. However, we are expected to ask for it. Then we are expected to ask for it in faith. If we do not ask for it, we receive nothing (James 4:2). If we do not ask for it in faith, we receive nothing (James 1:7, 8). Therefore, it is essential that we understand what the wil of the Lord is and then we receive it through faith and prayer. Things do not automatically come to us because we are serving Him as best we can. Things come as a result of asking and receiving, and that, only after we know the will of the Lord (Mat. 7:7-11; 1 John 5:14, 15).

Sorry this is so long but it takes a lot of truth to refute a little error ;)

victoryword

7th July 2008, 08:45 AM

And god's promises are spelled out in the contents of His Covenant, the last covenant He made was the Abrahamic Covenant. to last a thousand generations.

The "New Covenant" is the Abrahamic covenant, made perfect by Christ. Gal 3

If we don't accept healing, for instance, as being provided by the atonement, then we have no theology for healing. And that goes for any other blessing, all of them , through Christ having fulfilled the law for us.

Yes, His word is His will.

So true. The Bible makes it clear:

For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us (2 Cor. 1:20)

Furthermore, James 5:14 tells us that we are to anoint the sick person "in the name of the Lord" with the promise that the person will be delivered from their sickness. It is that Name which is above every name that was given to the Lord because he obeyed, even to the death of the cross. It is all about Jesus and His sacrifice. Paul said, "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" (Rom. 8:32).

God's will is revealed in His Word. Anything that contradicts His Word contradicts His will. Jesus sacrificed His very life to ensure that the will of God would be made manifest in our lives. Why people would reject this truth (while still scouring the Bible to find out-of-context prooftexts to support their doctrine of a parsimonious deity) is something I still find difficult to comprehend.

victoryword

7th July 2008, 08:50 AM

Philippians 1:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=1&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Context is oh so important:

21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+1:21&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+1:22&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+1:23&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+1:24&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+1:25&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

Seems that Paul knew he had a choice. It was more needful for Him to stay here on earth and continue the work of God and furthering the kingdom. Therefore, He could stand in faith (confidence) and live longer in order to accomplish his God-given goals. Paul was no fatalist and did not simply accept being sick and dying as some ultimate demonstration of God's sovereign will.

JimfromOhio

7th July 2008, 08:57 AM

I think you missed the point.

First, most of us believe that the Bible is indeed the Word of the Living God. He inspired this Word as He moved upon men of old:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works (2 Tim. 3:16, 17; see also 2 Pet. 1:20, 21)
If we believe that the Bible is the written Word of God to us then we will accept it as a revelation of what He wants us to do in obedience to Him but also what He wants us to have as a blessing from Him.

When confronted by Satan in the wilderness, Jesus did not look for any new revelations from the Father, even after He had heard the voice of God during His baptism (Mat. 3:17; 2 Pet. 1:17). Instead, He appealed to that which "is written" (Mat. 4:1-11; Luke 4:1-14). You find Him referring to the SCRIPTURE throughout His lifetime, assuming that the SCRIPTURE was the final authority revealing God's will, even when it concerned Himself and His own ministry (Mat. 21:42; 22:29; Mark 12:10; Luke 4:21; 24:27, 32, 45; John 5:39; 7:38, 42; 10:35).

Again, Jesus did not appeal to extra-biblical revelation nor did He appeal to "divine providence" as tests of God's will. On the contrary, when Jesus was confronted with negative circumstances it seems that He would confront them as though they were NOT the will of God. When storms came that would kill Him and His disciples, He rebuked them. When people came who were demon possessed and sicked, he delivered and healed them. When people were hungry, He provided food.

We have no right to expect God to give us any revelation of His will beyond that which is written (this is not to include personal guidance for issues in our lives, but even that will not contradict that "which is written"). People often refer to "the Providence of God," believing that all of the circumstances in our lives were somehow given by God for various reasons. The assumption is that all of these things are the will of God even when they contradict God's promises.

One may believe that "there's too much self-oriented teaching about God's promises" but the Bible tells us, "Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is." (Eph. 5:17). If it was just a matter of just "being about His business" and then everything will fall into our lap, then there would have been no need for Him to provide us with 66 books that teach us both what He expects of us and what he wants to do for us.

James 1:5-7 says that God wants to give us wisdom. However, we are expected to ask for it. Then we are expected to ask for it in faith. If we do not ask for it, we receive nothing (James 4:2). If we do not ask for it in faith, we receive nothing (James 1:7, 8). Therefore, it is essential that we understand what the wil of the Lord is and then we receive it through faith and prayer. Things do not automatically come to us because we are serving Him as best we can. Things come as a result of asking and receiving, and that, only after we know the will of the Lord (Mat. 7:7-11; 1 John 5:14, 15).

Sorry this is so long but it takes a lot of truth to refute a little error ;)
Whose error? We are talking about man's doctrines, not the Bible. ;) After going through Word of Faith doctrines, I have learned to be careful how I read and need to look from doctrinal perspective rather than each of our own satisfaction. One thing I have learned is that God's will don't appear to be "logic". God is good and God is also Just. The Bible teaches that God is love; some have interpreted this in such a way as virtually to deny that He is just, which the Bible also teaches. The biblical doctrine of God's goodness so far that it is made to contradict His holiness. The biblical doctrine of God's compassion cancel out His truth. People will view God is ALL good, which is true but the definition of "good" in God's point of view is different than our human point of view.

As I posted earlier, after being a Christian over 35 years, I have learned alot and remember what Paul wrote, "For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come" (1Tim 4:8).

If we desire honor and glory from God, we must display humility first. I am clearly against faith teachings that teaches that a God who actually hears our prayers and wants to answer them by telling us of the desire of God to heal people of their physical infirmities when often goes unanswered for many Christians.

It is God's will for us to be Saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9)
1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

It is God's will for us to be Spirit-filled (Ephesians 5:17-18)
Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

We all have to come to the understanding that while God wants us to be Spirit-filled that God's loving desire that we should reflect His own holiness and goodness, NOT our own goodness.

It is God's will for us to be Sanctified (1 Thessalonians 4:3-7)
It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.

It is God's will for us to be Submissive (1 Peter 2:13-15)
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men

It is God's will for us to Suffer ( Philippians 1:29; 2 Timothy 3:12)
Philippians 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him

I will be enjoying this debate. During a short sabbath from CF, I have learned alot about my own faith and my beliefs that I am called by God to come back and dispute any doctrines that I disagree with. :wave:

JimfromOhio

7th July 2008, 09:01 AM

Context is oh so important:

21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+1:21&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+1:22&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+1:23&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+1:24&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+1:25&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
Seems that Paul knew he had a choice. It was more needful for Him to stay here on earth and continue the work of God and furthering the kingdom. Therefore, He could stand in faith (confidence) and live longer in order to accomplish his God-given goals. Paul was no fatalist and did not simply accept being sick and dying as some ultimate demonstration of God's sovereign will.

Let's explore the context. :thumbsup: Abiding in Faith means to endure without yielding, to accept without objection, to remain stable or fixed in a state, to continue in a place. The word "abide" basically means "to remain." Real faith knows only one way and willing to allow God lead us as He did with great faiths in the Scriptures. For true faith is spiritual that is God's or working on faith that will make you fail and collapse into this sinful (flesh) world. True saving faith is not dependent on positive circumstances but negative circumstances as well. The Old Testament great faiths reacted in Faith of God's commands by responding to Him. Learning from great faiths in the Bible, circumstances did not control them; but rather how their reaction to circumstances that determined what kind of people they were and most importantly, how faithful they were.

It is not what Believer does in faith but why a believer have faith that determines his/her spiritual quality by seeing HOW their spiritual actions are performed in their dependence on God rather than on their faith.

We all are able to act and react any difficulties in our lives with God's power (Grace) today.

victoryword

7th July 2008, 09:28 AM

There is a verse in the Bible that God promises that there won’t be anything so bad happen to us that we’re not able to bear it.

Hebrews 11:39-40
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

That is an interesting passage. I am actually surprised that you did not quote verses 36-38 as it would seem to make a case for some of the beliefs you hold to. There seems to be two categories of people mentioned in Hebrews 11: Those who obtained promises and those who did not receive promises. Check it out:

And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions (Heb. 11:32, 33)

Do you notice that the apostles uses 34 verses of Scripture to talk about the great achievements wrought by people's faith from a postive aspect and only the last five verses does he mention the faith of those who went through cruel trials and did not receive God's promises? That tells me that the focus is more on the positive than the negative.

Yes, God honors the faith of those who go through cruel persecution and martyrdom and who refuse deliverance and certainly rewards them. But if we go by the count, it seems that God places most of His emphasis on a faith that is positive that actually obtains things.

Also, did you notice that sickness is not mentioned even once within those last five verses that teach about a faith that withstands the negative aspects of the lives of these martyrs? Every last one of these things mentioned in those verses deal with persecution at the hands of men. In order to be Biblically accurate, one cannot use hebrews 11 to make a case for suffering sickness and disease.

One thing I have learned over the years relating to the "doctrine of salvation". I have to remember that the Bible does not present faith as simply "mental assent to the facts of the gospel" but rather true saving faith involves repentance from my own sin and a complete trust in the work of Christ to save me from sin and make me righteous. Not to make me physically heal today or anytime soon unless it is God's will that I am to be healed. I don't really know if its God's will for me to be healed however, biblically, I do KNOW what God wants from me according to His written word. By faith, can anyone able to walk on WATER? I have the ability to walk on water only if its according to God's will. Discernment is the means to divide light from darkness, truth from falsehood, right motive from wrong motive, selflessness from selfishness.

You bring up a good point. One must be careful to distinguish between examples of faith provided by Jesus and others and clear promises that are generally made to all believers. Yes, many believers (including some WoFers) have caused trouble for themselves and embarrassment for the body by not making this distinction.

The ability to walk on water is NOT necessarily a promise from God. It was simply an example of faith, demonstrating that faith in Christ can accomplish anything. I ca no more expect to walk on water without a word from God to do so no more than I can challenge the prophets of Baal (or Mohammed or Buddha) to a duel or to walk around the city of Las Vegas and shout until all of the casinos fall down. Elijah and Joshua provide me with examples of what faith can accomplish, and that I can have similar great achievements as I commune with God and obey Him, but it does not mean that I will do exactly the same things they did, trying to copy them. The same is true of Jesus.

However, there some very clear instructions in the Bible and clear promises that are made to every single person. For example, Jesus said in Mark 16:15-20 that certain signs are to follow every believer. They shall speak with new tongues, they shall cast out demons, if they should run across deadly snakes or poisonous drink, they can expect protection, and they shall lay hands on the sick and expect recovery. David also gives us an example of promises given to every believer such as forgiveness of transgressions, healing of all diseases, and having our mouths filled with good things (Psalm 103). I can accept these as God's will for me because they are NOT examples, but promises for all who would claim them.

My main issue is this: Doctrines sounds very good but life is not so simple. Divine healing an important doctrine that leads people to false hope or understanding God's will whether they are healed or not since in the past 2,000 years that many Christians have been ill, sick, and died?

The Lord gave us that hope when He made those promises that are just as clear as the ones you have confidence in concerning eternal life. I doubt that you would deny that God always forgive sins. Yet Psalm 103 tells us in the same passage that He heals diseases. James 5:14-16 also tells us that He is willing to do both. So why deny one while holding to the other. Your doctrine deprrives the sufferer of any hope. As DBKWarrior said, hope is a good thing, especially when it is based on God's Word.

If you use experience only as the basis of providing hope or deprivation of it, then you do not truly accept, or least not fully accept, the Bible as the revealed will of God.

victoryword

7th July 2008, 09:41 AM

Whose error? We are talking about man's doctrines, not the Bible. ;) After going through Word of Faith doctrines, I have learned to be careful how I read and need to look from doctrinal perspective rather than each of our own satisfaction. One thing I have learned is that God's will don't appear to be "logic". God is good and God is also Just. The Bible teaches that God is love; some have interpreted this in such a way as virtually to deny that He is just, which the Bible also teaches. The biblical doctrine of God's goodness so far that it is made to contradict His holiness. The biblical doctrine of God's compassion cancel out His truth. People will view God is ALL good, which is true but the definition of "good" in God's point of view is different than our human point of view.

As I posted earlier, after being a Christian over 35 years, I have learned alot and remember what Paul wrote, "For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come" (1Tim 4:8).

If we desire honor and glory from God, we must display humility first. I am clearly against faith teachings that teaches that a God who actually hears our prayers and wants to answer them by telling us of the desire of God to heal people of their physical infirmities when often goes unanswered for many Christians.

It is God's will for us to be Saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9)
1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

It is God's will for us to be Spirit-filled (Ephesians 5:17-18)
Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

We all have to come to the understanding that while God wants us to be Spirit-filled that God's loving desire that we should reflect His own holiness and goodness, NOT our own goodness.

It is God's will for us to be Sanctified (1 Thessalonians 4:3-7)
It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.

It is God's will for us to be Submissive (1 Peter 2:13-15)
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men

It is God's will for us to Suffer ( Philippians 1:29; 2 Timothy 3:12)
Philippians 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him

I will be enjoying this debate. During a short sabbath from CF, I have learned alot about my own faith and my beliefs that I am called by God to come back and dispute any doctrines that I disagree with. :wave:

Those are all good Jim, but you forgot that it is also God's will for us to be healed of sickness and disease:

Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies; Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's. (Psalm 103:1-5)

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much (James 5:14-16).

You see Jim, "He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions" (Psalm 107:20). The Word of God reveals the will of God. If God sent His WORD, then that means He sent a revelation of His will, His purposes and intent, for their healing. So yes, all that you mentioned above is the will of God for us, even the suffering. However, the suffering that happens to be God's will is not sickness and disease, but the persecution that comes to us as being Christians. God does not want us retailiating against our persecutors, but to suffer just as he did.

Jesus never suffered sickness and has never required us to do so.

I have run out of time and most of your posts are long so I cannot rebut all of them without spending more time than I have allotted. I hope you'll understand if I do not respond anymmore.

JimfromOhio

7th July 2008, 09:52 AM

That is an interesting passage. I am actually surprised that you did not quote verses 36-38 as it would seem to make a case for some of the beliefs you hold to. There seems to be two categories of people mentioned in Hebrews 11: Those who obtained promises and those who did not receive promises. Check it out:
And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions (Heb. 11:32, 33)
Do you notice that the apostles uses 34 verses of Scripture to talk about the great achievements wrought by people's faith from a postive aspect and only the last five verses does he mention the faith of those who went through cruel trials and did not receive God's promises? That tells me that the focus is more on the positive than the negative.

Yes, God honors the faith of those who go through cruel persecution and martyrdom and who refuse deliverance and certainly rewards them. But if we go by the count, it seems that God places most of His emphasis on a faith that is positive that actually obtains things.

Also, did you notice that sickness is not mentioned even once within those last five verses that teach about a faith that withstands the negative aspects of the lives of these martyrs? Every last one of these things mentioned in those verses deal with persecution at the hands of men. In order to be Biblically accurate, one cannot use hebrews 11 to make a case for suffering sickness and disease.

You bring up a good point. One must be careful to distinguish between examples of faith provided by Jesus and others and clear promises that are generally made to all believers. Yes, many believers (including some WoFers) have caused trouble for themselves and embarrassment for the body by not making this distinction.

The ability to walk on water is NOT necessarily a promise from God. It was simply an example of faith, demonstrating that faith in Christ can accomplish anything. I ca no more expect to walk on water without a word from God to do so no more than I can challenge the prophets of Baal (or Mohammed or Buddha) to a duel or to walk around the city of Las Vegas and shout until all of the casinos fall down. Elijah and Joshua provide me with examples of what faith can accomplish, and that I can have similar great achievements as I commune with God and obey Him, but it does not mean that I will do exactly the same things they did, trying to copy them. The same is true of Jesus.

However, there some very clear instructions in the Bible and clear promises that are made to every single person. For example, Jesus said in Mark 16:15-20 that certain signs are to follow every believer. They shall speak with new tongues, they shall cast out demons, if they should run across deadly snakes or poisonous drink, they can expect protection, and they shall lay hands on the sick and expect recovery. David also gives us an example of promises given to every believer such as forgiveness of transgressions, healing of all diseases, and having our mouths filled with good things (Psalm 103). I can accept these as God's will for me because they are NOT examples, but promises for all who would claim them.

The Lord gave us that hope when He made those promises that are just as clear as the ones you have confidence in concerning eternal life. I doubt that you would deny that God always forgive sins. Yet Psalm 103 tells us in the same passage that He heals diseases. James 5:14-16 also tells us that He is willing to do both. So why deny one while holding to the other. Your doctrine deprrives the sufferer of any hope. As DBKWarrior said, hope is a good thing, especially when it is based on God's Word.

If you use experience only as the basis of providing hope or deprivation of it, then you do not truly accept, or least not fully accept, the Bible as the revealed will of God.

It appears that you are looking into the scriptures MORE than it is really telling you such beliefs are in radical contradiction to the letter as well as the spirit of the Holy Scriptures. Victory is the Holy Spirit convicted us and Christ is us, we all experience the power of the Holy Spirit to gain victory over sin, we may never attain total dominance over our drives and passions. Jesus is the Great Deliverer, through whom we have victory over sin, death and hell. In Christ we have all the power we will ever need. God's promise is great, but it is as great as we experience spiritual growth from God's perspectives by cultivating the knowledge of God while at the same time cultivate our faith.

The new Covenant is sealed in the blood of Jesus, Who is our Savior and Mediator, brought us together with His Grace and Mercy that we have great spiritual and eternal freedom. The Old Testament priests, sacrifices, and sanctuary are superseded by the mediation of Jesus, the crucified, risen, and reigning God-man (Heb. 1-10), in whom believers now find their identity as the seed of Abraham and the people of God (Gal. 3:29; 1 Pet. 2:4-10). Hebrews 9:15 "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant."

We need to look at the whole picture of God's eternal promises, not temporal promises. Word of Faith teaches "now" as in temporal promises. God will always accomplish His purposes in His eternal time. According to faith, I am whole in God's eternal promises. When we look at God's time, we CAN'T comprehend God's time but we have faith in His decisions regarding of "time". If God is ALL good, then Solomon would not write the negative side of God in Ecclesiastes. God's will is ALWAYS right when "There's a right time and way for everything." One Christian has said "Thinking (wishing) works against our human and horizontal perspective on life. Thinking vertically is a discipline few have mastered. We much prefer to live in a here-and-now realm, seeing life as others see it, dealing with realities we can touch, analyze, prove, and explain. We are much more comfortable with the tattile, the familiar, the logic shaped by our culture and lived out our times."

I say, beware of doctrines that are more self-centered than God-centered.

JimfromOhio

7th July 2008, 10:00 AM

Those are all good Jim, but you forgot that it is also God's will for us to be healed of sickness and disease:

Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies; Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's. (Psalm 103:1-5)

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much (James 5:14-16).
You see Jim, "He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions" (Psalm 107:20). The Word of God reveals the will of God. If God sent His WORD, then that means He sent a revelation of His will, His purposes and intent, for their healing. So yes, all that you mentioned above is the will of God for us, even the suffering. However, the suffering that happens to be God's will is not sickness and disease, but the persecution that comes to us as being Christians. God does not want us retailiating against our persecutors, but to suffer just as he did.

Jesus never suffered sickness and has never required us to do so.

I have run out of time and most of your posts are long so I cannot rebut all of them without spending more time than I have allotted. I hope you'll understand if I do not respond anymmore.
I will understand if you don't respond anymore but I will respond as long as this takes. Jesus never suffered sickness until the DAY HE DIED on the CROSS. He did suffered.

Looking at an example of Paul's thorn, this is a tough problem for us believers; but if we do not know what it means we may at least know what it does not mean. It does not mean that in refusing to remove the thorn in answer to prayer God became guilty of a breach of promise. Christian spiritual training is this: "Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me,'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.' Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me". (Second Corinthians 12:8-9). Paul wanted the thorn removed but God wanted to teach Paul that "the sufficiency of His grace" in the worst of human circumstances is that when a person is weak in a temporal sense while the person is strong spiritually by God's Grace in eternal sense.

God has given us the grace to sanctify us. The sources of "thorns" can be weaknesses, insults, distresses, persecutions and difficulties (which also includes sickness). Paul just needed to focus on God rather than the problem. God uses thorns (sufferings) to perfect His "power is perfected in weakness". Since faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit by the conviction to submit into action, we are focus on our faith based on obedience to holiness, adding to our faith and fruit of the spirit through grace. Working on of faith means nothing if you don't act on your faith. If you don't act, then you don't have faith. To respond your James 5:14-16 healing quote, we need to look back James' earlier chapters that through GRACE, "Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." (James 1:4). We can be healed according to God's will, either through GRACE or physically healed.

Jimbeaux

7th July 2008, 10:38 AM

victoryword

7th July 2008, 11:23 AM

God’s Word is a revelation of God’s will … providing, of course, we understand what God’s Word—all of it, not just the parts we like—actually says. Assuming it says something will most often be proven/disproven if it actually works like you think it should. If it doesn’t you probably need to go back to the drawing board, not justify your position by elaborate “explanations” as to why it didn’t work like you said it would/should.

~Jim

Real heroes are people who rise to the occasion then slip quietly away. ~Tom Brokaw

That's a good point Jimmer. This opens the door for perhaps, another one of my pet peeves with many Christians concerning sin. There are indeed "parts of the Bible that some do not like," like those passages that teach us that we can have complete and total victory over sin in this life.

So many seem to believe that the born again Christian is expected to sin, should expect to sin, and should not expect complete victory over sin until he or she gets to heaven. Many of them do not like to hear it when I tell them that it is God's will that we live a sin free life in "the sweet now and now" we can expect to do so. I am often disparaged for this. But God's Word gives us a revelation of His will for sin free living:

BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word. With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments. Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee (Psalm 119:9-11).

Concerning the works of men, by the word of thy lips I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer (Psalm 17:4)

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Cor. 7:1)

God's word is His revelation of His purpose and intent to give us victory over sin in our lives. We find this teaching expounded in 1 John 3:5-10; 5:18; Gal. 5:22, 23; Romans 6:1-23 and many others. If we are going to teach "doctrine," which is the word often used by your compadre, JimfromOhio, then here is a doctrine I see neglected in both camps. yet Paul writes, "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness" (Rom. 6:17-18).

Again, while I find the doctrine of victory over sin neglected in both camps, I have found it more so in the non-wof (and primarily in the anti-wof) camp. Ironically it has been those who hold to a stringent view of God's sovereignty that argue against the belief that we can overcome sin in this life. It is no wonder since most of them teach that every action of men is somehow the result of God's mysterious will (while they go through numerous verbal gymnastics about how God is not the author of the sin He ordained). Yet, God's Word reveals that it is not His will that men sin but that they have the victory over it.

So in our desire to understand the will of God and to please Him, we should take seriously those promises and commands to walk in victory over sin by the power of the Holy Spirit and the blood of Christ. It may not be something that anyone's itching ears wants to hear, it may not be helpful to the one who wants to excuse their sin while claiming to be a Christian, and it may not fit too well in a doctrine that teaches that God controls everything, including the thoughts and actions of men. But it does reveal the will of God.

So thanks Jim for giving me a soapbox in which to speak about one of those parts of God's revelation that many of us "don't like."

JimfromOhio

7th July 2008, 11:35 AM

So thanks Jim for giving me a soapbox in which to speak about one of those parts of God's revelation that many of us "don't like."

Its not that I (or Jim) don't like. WOF's doctrines are so appealing and so unbiblical that I was attracted to it in the first place. I love the hearing those doctrines but discovered that doctrines were false. That's the problem. "Ichy ears" doctrines sounds better than actual true day to day living that Christians face for such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of temporal carnal Christians. Ephesians 4:14-15: No prolonged infancies among us, please. We'll not tolerate babes in the woods, small children who are an easy mark for impostors.

Anyway, later, I have learned the truth and got out of it and I feel sad for those who remain. This is between them and God.

dkbwarrior

7th July 2008, 11:36 AM

I say, beware of doctrines that are more self-centered than God-centered.

I say, beware of doctrines that are not Word centered. If one needs to deny the Word to be "humble" I would venture to say that its likely not humility at all.

Peace...

JimfromOhio

7th July 2008, 11:51 AM

I say, beware of doctrines that are not Word centered. If one needs to deny the Word to be "humble" I would venture to say that its likely not humility at all.

Peace...
By their smooth words, they deceive many into thinking that they are Christian brothers and their ideas are outside Biblical concept. Strongly encourage that everyone to "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? -- unless indeed you are disqualified." (2 Corinthians 13:5 NKJV) The main purpose for reading the Bible is to change ourselves as we read, believe and obey. The WORD is Jesus Christ.

victoryword

7th July 2008, 11:51 AM

Its not that I (or Jim) don't like. WOF's doctrines are so appealing and so unbiblical that I was attracted to it in the first place. I love the hearing those doctrines but discovered that doctrines were false. That's the problem. "Ichy ears" doctrines sounds better than actual true day to day living that Christians face for such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of temporal carnal Christians. Ephesians 4:14-15: No prolonged infancies among us, please. We'll not tolerate babes in the woods, small children who are an easy mark for impostors.

Anyway, later, I have learned the truth and got out of it and I feel sad for those who remain. This is between them and God.

In order for something to be false, it must be rpoven to be contrary to the truth. Your ramblings about something being false and then giving random prooftexts with commentary against the teaching you despise does not make the doctrine false.

False and truth is based on the criteria of God's Word. In John 17:17 Jesus said, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." The doctrine of divine healing has been proven from the Word of God as well as most of other so-called Word of Faith doctrines. You and others have failed to disprove any of it based on the Bible. You have done a lot of dancing around the issues, you have quoted Tozer and others, you have given us "orthodox" viewpoints and then concluded that these were false based on your experience, but you have not yet taken the Bible, the living Word of Almighty God, and proven any of it false.

Now, on the other hand, we have taken your rebuttals of our beliefs and shown you from the Scripture that they did not line up with God's Word. Therefore, if God's Word is the criteria of what is true and what is false, then it is YOU my friend and others like you that are propagating false doctrine.

Have a nice day.

victoryword

7th July 2008, 11:53 AM

I say, beware of doctrines that are not Word centered. If one needs to deny the Word to be "humble" I would venture to say that its likely not humility at all.

Peace...

:amen:

It is false humility based on false doctrine.

JimfromOhio

7th July 2008, 11:58 AM

In order for something to be false, it must be rpoven to be contrary to the truth. Your ramblings about something being false and then giving random prooftexts with commentary against the teaching you despise does not make the doctrine false.

False and truth is based on the criteria of God's Word. In John 17:17 Jesus said, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." The doctrine of divine healing has been proven from the Word of God as well as most of other so-called Word of Faith doctrines. You and others have failed to disprove any of it based on the Bible. You have done a lot of dancing around the issues, you have quoted Tozer and others, you have given us "orthodox" viewpoints and then concluded that these were false based on your experience, but you have not yet taken the Bible, the living Word of Almighty God, and proven any of it false.

Now, on the other hand, we have taken your rebuttals of our beliefs and shown you from the Scripture that they did not line up with God's Word. Therefore, if God's Word is the criteria of what is true and what is false, then it is YOU my friend and others like you that are propagating false doctrine.

Have a nice day.
It is God's will that we submit to the Holy Spirit and keep on filling (Ephesians 5:18), Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all the same and ONE God. God does not desire to destroy my will, but to sanctify “my will into His will”. In 1 Peter 4:11 instructs me to handle biblical truth: "If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God."

I will repeat A.W. Tozer's quote: Faith is not the ability to persuade ourselves for something we desire will come to pass if we only wish hard enough. God is who He is as Himself. He does not become what we believe. God is "I AM That I AM" and that only when we know what kind of God He is, we are to adjust our entire being to the concept of Who He really is. Faith is subjective, but it is sound only when it corresponds with objective reality by the knowing God as "I AM that I AM", with the help from the Holy Spirit, we produce strong faith. True faith is not the ability to visualize unseen things to the satisfaction of our imperfect minds, but rather the spiritual power to trust Christ as Who He is.

Ephesians 1:13 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit."

JimfromOhio

7th July 2008, 12:01 PM

:amen:

It is false humility based on false doctrine.
My perspective from what I am reading from the Scriptures, that if we desire honor and glory from God, we must display humility first. That is contrary to our earthly philosophy, which exalts pride (which WOF often teaches when talking about wealth, health and power). Jesus emphasized humility in Matthew 18:3-4 when He said that anyone who would come into His Kingdom must humble himself as a little child. :wave:

map4

7th July 2008, 01:07 PM

My perspective from what I am reading from the Scriptures, that if we desire honor and glory from God, we must display humility first. That is contrary to our earthly philosophy, which exalts pride (which WOF often teaches when talking about wealth, health and power). Jesus emphasized humility in Matthew 18:3-4 when He said that anyone who would come into His Kingdom must humble himself as a little child. :wave:

There is a difference in pride and having confidence in God that He will do what He promised to do...not matter what promise one is talking about.

To be an overcomer, we have to know that Christ made everything we need available to us. All I need is in Him. I have confidence in that. Confidence in my Savior who always causes me to triumph. Test, trials and tribulations come. Jesus said they would and no one is denying that. But, we are also overcomers through Christ Jesus. It is not self centered it is Christ centered. Because He is my victory. We walk through the shadow of the valley of death. He is with us every step of the way. And when we come through He is glorified. Not us. Because we can't do it on our own. It is leaning on Him and allowing Him to do the work through us. I can count it all joy when I go through the fiery trials. They mature me. But, I stand on His promise that He will pull me through.
We can glorify God during our trials. But, He is also glorified when we come through victorious. Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world.
And we rejoice with praise and thanksgiving to Him. We can also point others to the same Jesus who will lead them and cause them to triumph. It may not be the same way, but He is the same God.
If it doesn't happen in this lifetime means nothing other than we receive it when we are in Heaven. We may lose some battles but we have already won the war. Because Jesus did it for us. And nothing, to me, is more humbling than knowing that our Almighty God did all He did for us.

I think one of the key differences is that some (Wof) choose to live their lives "claiming" the victory Jesus has given us. No matter what the circumstances look like. Because, whether we see it in this life or not...we are all victorious in the end.

I think also that we need to remember...if some don't see victories that we think they should see...it is not our duty to point fingers. We can share the truth IN LOVE, but, it is up to the Holy Spirit, and not us, to do any work that needs to be done in someone's life (including our own). Whatever that may be. And also realize that none of us have arrived yet. We are all a work in progress and He who started a good work in us will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

victoryword

7th July 2008, 02:42 PM

I will repeat A.W. Tozer's quote: Faith is not the ability to persuade ourselves for something we desire will come to pass if we only wish hard enough. God is who He is as Himself. He does not become what we believe. God is "I AM That I AM" and that only when we know what kind of God He is, we are to adjust our entire being to the concept of Who He really is.

Funny, I agree with this Tozer quote. However, I probably don't agree with how you are applying Tozer's advice. You see, what Tozer says is true. Now, let's look at what God said about Himself:

God says, "I am the Lord that healeth thee":

And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee. (Ex. 15:26)

So the God who is "I AM That I AM" says "I am the LORD that healeth thee." So you Jim from O, I don't have to wish for God to be something that He is not or for Him to do something He does not want. My faith is predicated upon who He says He is as he has revealed in His Word. You want God to be a deity who works on the basis of sovereign whims in which His promises are meaningless. Jim, you often prooftext your posts but your theoloy has no biblical basis my friend.

But tell the late Tozer I said thanks when you see him in heaven.

victoryword

7th July 2008, 02:53 PM

JimfromOhio

7th July 2008, 07:05 PM

Funny, I agree with this Tozer quote. However, I probably don't agree with how you are applying Tozer's advice. You see, what Tozer says is true. Now, let's look at what God said about Himself:

God says, "I am the Lord that healeth thee":

And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee. (Ex. 15:26)
So the God who is "I AM That I AM" says "I am the LORD that healeth thee." So you Jim from O, I don't have to wish for God to be something that He is not or for Him to do something He does not want. My faith is predicated upon who He says He is as he has revealed in His Word. You want God to be a deity who works on the basis of sovereign whims in which His promises are meaningless. Jim, you often prooftext your posts but your theoloy has no biblical basis my friend.

But tell the late Tozer I said thanks when you see him in heaven.

I have many of Tozer's books and I know what he meant. This is one of his quotes: Let us never forget that the promises of God are made to the humble: the proud man by his pride forfeits every blessing promised to the lowly heart, and from the hand of God he need expect only justice!

My faith is in God's character and His will because if in the sovereign will of God things go against me (as Job went through), what do I have left?

If life and health are placed in jeopardy, what about my everlasting resources? In Jesus, I have everything essential to I need eternally because I have Christ, who died for me who can never fail. Jesus Christ is my Savior Who is my Purifier and eternal Healer. Not until we have become humble and teachable, standing in awe of God's holiness and sovereignty... acknowledging our own littleness, distrusting our own thoughts, and willing to have our minds turned upside down, can divine wisdom become ours.

victoryword

7th July 2008, 08:31 PM

I have many of Tozer's books and I know what he meant. This is one of his quotes: Let us never forget that the promises of God are made to the humble: the proud man by his pride forfeits every blessing promised to the lowly heart, and from the hand of God he need expect only justice!

My faith is in God's character and His will because if in the sovereign will of God things go against me (as Job went through), what do I have left?

If life and health are placed in jeopardy, what about my everlasting resources? In Jesus, I have everything essential to I need eternally because I have Christ, who died for me who can never fail. Jesus Christ is my Savior Who is my Purifier and eternal Healer. Not until we have become humble and teachable, standing in awe of God's holiness and sovereignty... acknowledging our own littleness, distrusting our own thoughts, and willing to have our minds turned upside down, can divine wisdom become ours.

You are assuming that a person who boldly takes God at his written Word, which is a revelation of His will, is being prideful. As one person has said earlier, you have confused pride with confidence. The Bible says:

Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

The teachable person is the one who accepts God's Word as I have shown you from 2 Chron. 24:37. I have shown you that Jesus referred to "it is written (Mat. 4:1-11; Luke 4:1-14) rather than with some esoteric will of God. 2 Tim. 3:16 tells us that the Scripture, the written Word, is that which we are to use to our profit. We are not to accept circumstantial evidence as the will of God.

Job may appear to you to be teaching that we should accept all that happens in our life as the will of God but I say that you are wrong in your reading of Job. You have divorced Job from the rest of scripture, especially the New Testament. James tells us that we are to learn the patience of Job in knowing the END OF THE LORD (James 5:11). The end of the Lord is found in Job 42 where Job is delivered from his trial. If all you can do is focus on Job's suffering and not the end of the Lord, you have missed the lesson. James tells us before that that we are to submit to god and resist the devil, which is the sign of TRUE HUMILITY (James 4). To allow the devil to continually beat on you and call it God's providence is NOT humility.

You should ask God to deliver you from twisted theology.

JimfromOhio

7th July 2008, 09:10 PM

You are assuming that a person who boldly takes God at his written Word, which is a revelation of His will, is being prideful. As one person has said earlier, you have confused pride with confidence. The Bible says:

Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
The teachable person is the one who accepts God's Word as I have shown you from 2 Chron. 24:37. I have shown you that Jesus referred to "it is written (Mat. 4:1-11; Luke 4:1-14) rather than with some esoteric will of God. 2 Tim. 3:16 tells us that the Scripture, the written Word, is that which we are to use to our profit. We are not to accept circumstantial evidence as the will of God.

Job may appear to you to be teaching that we should accept all that happens in our life as the will of God but I say that you are wrong in your reading of Job. You have divorced Job from the rest of scripture, especially the New Testament. James tells us that we are to learn the patience of Job in knowing the END OF THE LORD (James 5:11). The end of the Lord is found in Job 42 where Job is delivered from his trial. If all you can do is focus on Job's suffering and not the end of the Lord, you have missed the lesson. James tells us before that that we are to submit to god and resist the devil, which is the sign of TRUE HUMILITY (James 4). To allow the devil to continually beat on you and call it God's providence is NOT humility.

You should ask God to deliver you from twisted theology.

I disagree with you and your twisted theology. Humility as Christ explained in Matthew 5:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=5&version=50&context=verse) Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.

It is the selfish who possess the world while it is the meek who inherits the world.

If we believe God and honor His Word, if we walk by faith in love and obedience, there will be eternal rewards for each of us in that great coming day.

Whatever I built spiritual during my human life, my rewards may escape through the flames. If my works passed the test and stand because they are true spiritual works of the Kingdom, then I will be rewarded according to my relationship with God in all aspects of my life. Now if my service to the Lord is consumed by preoccupation on focusing a system of faith then based on my wrong spiritual motives, then I will suffer the loss of them, and there will be no reward for me in heaven. So, my spiritual goals are to lay up treasure in heaven. I am going to focus on building on the foundation (Christ) with the right spiritual motives, that my spiritual work will be gold, silver, and costly stones.

We all need to remember this: ".......our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to bring everything under His control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like His glorious body." (Philippians 3:20-21)