Jesus' Judaism

[ChavaK]

Judaism and Yeshua should be considered one and the same. One day it will be.

I used to believe that , but not anymore, I guess the rose colored glasses of hope eventually come off. From this point in time I can see that Judaism and Yeshua are worlds apart. The Judaism of today is nothing like what Yeshua lived. Nothing. In fact it was even formed after Christianity started and that was after The Way came into being.

This is taken from a discussion in the MJ forum.
Over and over I hear Christians say that Judaism today
is nothing like that in the "first century". Basically
they are saying that their Christian perception
of what Judaism should be and was in Jesus' time
is correct, and Judaism today is a false, man made
religion.


Not being a historian of any kind, why do they believe this?
What evidence do they have ( in their eyes) that their Christian
based MJ is the "true" Judaism?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

This is taken from a discussion in the MJ forum.
Over and over I hear Christians say that Judaism today
is nothing like that in the "first century". Basically
they are saying that their Christian perception
of what Judaism should be and was in Jesus' time
is correct, and Judaism today is a false, man made
religion.


Not being a historian of any kind, why do they believe this?
What evidence do they have ( in their eyes) that their Christian
based MJ is the "true" Judaism? I know and understand what you are saying. But what can be said or done on either side. One side is to radical and the other is to liberal. I blame those who do the leading of the people. What do you think the answer is?

[Steve Petersen]

The Judaism of the Master seems closest to Galilean hassidic practice. Charismatic, more focused on the weightier commandments.

He seems to take a stance on halakah that sometimes upholds Shammai, most times Hillel.

Judaims today is a descendant of Pharisaic practice. I don't see Jesus disagreeing much with the Pharisees.

Nonetheless, the polemic war between Christianity and Judaism for the last two millenia has affected both religions and pushed them farther away from each other.

I hope, Chavak, you are not saying that Judaism has been unaffected by the cultures they encountered. It is not identical to Second Temple Judaism.

[ShirChadash]

This is taken from a discussion in the MJ forum.
Over and over I hear Christians say that Judaism today
is nothing like that in the "first century". Basically
they are saying that their Christian perception
of what Judaism should be and was in Jesus' time
is correct, and Judaism today is a false, man made
religion.


Not being a historian of any kind, why do they believe this?
What evidence do they have ( in their eyes) that their Christian
based MJ is the "true" Judaism?
They have to, Chava. Only if chr*tianity perfects what came before it, can it replace what came before it, and that theological stance is inherent to chr*tianity (not perhaps for individuals, but again...).

If Judaism can, as it has continued to throughout the last 2000 years, stand upon its own two feet with no connection to nor need for a godman messiah who didn't fulfil the prophecies he must, and if Jews can clearly show with Scripture not only why Jsus is not messiah but also why Jews can not and must not accept him as god, then chr*tians must reason it all away by saying that, well, the beliefs of Judaism today simply can not be the same as they were when a few (and yes, relatively speaking, it was a few) Jews of that day believed that man to be the messiah.

[Steve Petersen]

Basicallythey are saying that their Christian perceptionof what Judaism should be and was in Jesus' time is correct, and Judaism today is a false, man made religion.

Maybe they want to practise the religion of their Master.

Not being a historian of any kind, why do they believe this?

You don't have to be a historian to read and understand scholar's books (like Flusser, Nanos, Lapide et al.)

What evidence do they have (in their eyes) that their Christian
based MJ is the "true" Judaism?

Which 'they' group are you referring to? Charismatic, Evangelical, etc. or MJism that follows Jewish liturgy and custom? The latter is most likely do deny the divinty angle, the former not.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

In all of the different forms of Judaism which includes Christianity as a sect, everyone is going every which direction. This is a result of every-ones leadership pulling people every direction. I do not include the Muslims because they worship a god called Allah, also known as Alilah. Alilah is without a doubt, not the God of Abraham, although they may believe that he is. In the New Testament, Yahshua says that he did not come to be worshipped by man. His purpose for being here was to reconcile mankind to God through a New covenant, which is spoken of by God through the prophets. Orthodox Jews [Hebrews] say that he can not be the Messiah because he did not fulfill all of the prophecies. And like I have said before, saying, You have mixed the first and second coming prophecies together. Now because the Orthodox have found error on the part of Christians this has added to there belief that Yahshua is not The Son of God. I would like to state at this point, where there is error on the part of Christians or Orthodox is not Gods fault, but mankind's. These problems are a result of free will and not the lack of instructions. Traditions of men have been placed ahead of Gods words by men. And so it is by those men who are of an ancient order that have divided us one against the other.

[zaksmummy]

Please excuse my ignorance about Jewish history, but, how can Judaism be the same as in the 2nd temple period, since there is no temple to worship HaShem in?

Neither Christianity nor Judaism is the same as in this time period, history (from our POV) has happened, both religions have affected the other, empires have risen and fallen and affected them both.

From my POV Judaism is not man made, it was ordained by HaShem, but has changed as layer upon layer of people's understanding and opinion has impacted upon, as in the same way that christianity has changed through catholicism and reformation and is still in the flux of change today.

[Kris10leigh]

Please excuse my ignorance about Jewish history, but, how can Judaism be the same as in the 2nd temple period, since there is no temple to worship HaShem in?

Neither Christianity nor Judaism is the same as in this time period, history (from our POV) has happened, both religions have affected the other, empires have risen and fallen and affected them both.

From my POV Judaism is not man made, it was ordained by HaShem, but has changed as layer upon layer of people's understanding and opinion has impacted upon, as in the same way that christianity has changed through catholicism and reformation and is still in the flux of change today.
And just to add to this, Christianity changes faster and more radically (far more divisions) than Judaism, but Judaism does suffer change. Rabbis have lengthy meetings about change, don't they? For instance, wasn't there recently some big to-do about being about to eat pork? I forget what article that was, but it was posted here not too long ago. Rabbis meet to decide if rules need to change to fit society, but I think Jews are much, much slower to make the changes than Christians are.

And in case any one asks, I have no point...:P

[Qalevra]

For instance, wasn't there recently some big to-do about being about to eat pork?

Wha??? I've never heard of this. I just can't believe a Rabbi would advocate that! :doh:

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

:thumbsup:Would you like for the Christians in the world pull their support from Israel?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

And since Christians worship a god called "Jesus", I do not include them as a sect of Judaism, just as you exclude Muslims (whose ideas of God are far more compatible with Judaism than those of Christians).

Allah (الله) is not al-ilah (الإله). It is a specific contracted form. Or, do you also know Arabic so that you can correct me?

السلام
ياسون Here is what I know about the name Allah: http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=5780957

[Qalevra]

Would you like for the Christians in the world pull their support from Israel?

Let em. It's worth a lot less than they think it is.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Let em. It's worth a lot less than they think it is.
Here is all you have to do. If you can get enough of your countrymen to agree with you. Have them altogether say to the American people: We feel defiled by your presents and support of Israel. We do not want any support from you. If you can get enough support from your countrymen in Israel and around the world, and say that to the American people, then the people will surly put presser on the government to pull their support.

[Qalevra]

Here is all you have to do. If you can get enough of your countrymen to agree with you. Have them altogether say to the American people: We feel defiled by your presents and support of Israel. We do not want any support from you. If you can get enough support from your countrymen in Israel and around the world, and say that to the American people, then the people will surly put presser on the government to pull their support.

No, all I have to do is convince our secret society to stop demanding tribute.

[ShirChadash]

No, all I have to do is convince our secret society to stop demanding tribute.
^_^

[ShirChadash]

Let em. It's worth a lot less than they think it is.

true.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MichaelTheeArchAngel http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47727861#post47727861) Would you like for the Christians in the world pull their support from Israel?
Let em. It's worth a lot less than they think it is.
Is that support mainly do to Biblical Eschatological reasons [such as a future Armeggedon] or as them being a friendly ally with the rest of our allies. I really see no Biblical significance to that country myself, but then that is just me and I am not Jewish. :wave:

[jaihare]

Would you like for the Christians in the world pull their support from Israel?
Simply because they worship a different god? That's a non-sequitor if I've ever seen one.

Jason

[jaihare]

Is that support mainly do to Biblical Eschatological reasons [such as a future Armeggedon] or as them being a friendly ally with the rest of our allies. I really see no Biblical significance to that country myself, but then that is just me and I am not Jewish. :wave:
There are sincere Christians who believe that Israel needs to have a homeland in order to prevent the types of things that were happening when we were living among the nations. These are sincere people who desire peace for Israel and hope to live as friendly nations. These are also those whose support and help of Israel are truly appreciated. The majority of Israelis are truly thankful for the support of the American people (as in, political support).

There are those, however, who support Israel only on the face. Their true motivation is that they want the holocaust to happen all over again, but this time within the land of Israel. They believe that a great tribulation is coming in which Israel will be tortured at the will of God, and in the end all those who have not turned to Jesus will be destroyed in Armageddon. These are those whose support Israel could do without. We do not need the support of those who are calling for the continuance of Israeli sovereignty only for the sake of World War III.

Jason

[Nooj]

Would you like for the Christians in the world pull their support from Israel?That sounds suspiciously like blackmail to me. Agree with me or risk losing Christian support for Israel! Please, as if Jews are under any 'obligation' to agree with you about anything.

Oh, and who made you the spokesperson for the whole Christian community?

[Talmidah]

That sounds suspiciously like blackmail to me. Agree with me or risk losing Christian support for Israel! Please, as if Jews are under any 'obligation' to agree with you about anything.

Oh, and who made you the spokesperson for the whole Christian community?

Thank you, Nooj! :thumbsup:

[jaihare]

That sounds suspiciously like blackmail to me. Agree with me or risk losing Christian support for Israel! Please, as if Jews are under any 'obligation' to agree with you about anything.

Oh, and who made you the spokesperson for the whole Christian community?
True that!

[Mikeb85]

This is taken from a discussion in the MJ forum.
Over and over I hear Christians say that Judaism today
is nothing like that in the "first century". Basically
they are saying that their Christian perception
of what Judaism should be and was in Jesus' time
is correct, and Judaism today is a false, man made
religion.

After a few failed rebellions, destruction of the temple, split from Christianity, expulsion from Jerusalem, living abroad for a couple millenia, and then the re-establishment of a Jewish state, I think it's safe to say that the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion have undergone some change...


Not being a historian of any kind, why do they believe this?
What evidence do they have ( in their eyes) that their Christian
based MJ is the "true" Judaism?

Messianic Judaism is nothing more than modern Protestant Christianity with a Jewish flavour. And let's just say it really doesn't resemble ancient Jewish or Christian practice...

I'd look more towards traditional Apostolic Christian practices to see what Judaism may have looked like a few thousand years ago. Especially that in Ethiopia - they've got some very interesting practices, not to mention as a nation they converted to Judaism long before the common era (very interesting history there), and then later converted to Christianity.

Of course, this is just (educated) speculation, I'm by no means an authority, although I have done quite a bit of personal research into ancient religions...

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Thank you, Nooj! :thumbsup:
jaihare
Languages ‘Я’ Us Join Date: 5th June 2008
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Originally Posted by MichaelTheeArchAngel
I do not include the Muslims because they worship a god called Allah, also known as Alilah.



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#9 5th July 2008, 04:38 PM
ShirChadash
puffed-up Jewish convert and resident muppetgrump3 Join Date: 31st October 2003
Posts: 4,185
Reps: 3282953 (power: 3291):thumbsup:



Originally Posted by jaihare
And since Christians worship a god called "Jesus", I do not include them as a sect of Judaism, just as you exclude Muslims (whose ideas of God are far more compatible with Judaism than those of Christians).

Allah (الله) is not al-ilah (الإله). It is a specific contracted form. Or, do you also know Arabic so that you can correct me?

السلام
ياسون

Basically it is has been said that Christianity is not compatible with Orthodox Judaism, and that the Muslims are more compatible, and besides that, American support is worthless. So if the Jews [Hebrews] feel that way toward America and Christianity, then tell that to the American public.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Here is all you have to do. If you can get enough of your countrymen to agree with you. Have them altogether say to the American people: We feel defiled by your presents and support of Israel. We do not want any support from you. If you can get enough support from your countrymen in Israel and around the world, and say that to the American people, then the people will surly put presser on the government to pull their support.

[Steve Petersen]

Let's not forget tourist dollars that come into Israel from Christians.

Then their are Christians who donate to Jewish charities.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MichaelTheeArchAngel http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47727854#post47727854) Would you like for the Christians in the world pull their support from Israel?
That sounds suspiciously like blackmail to me. Agree with me or risk losing Christian support for Israel! Please, as if Jews are under any 'obligation' to agree with you about anything.

Oh, and who made you the spokesperson for the whole Christian community?He would make a good Pope. :)

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7149859&page=100
Is the Pope the most powerful voice for Christianity today?

[Qalevra]

Is that support mainly do to Biblical Eschatological reasons [such as a future Armeggedon] or as them being a friendly ally with the rest of our allies. I really see no Biblical significance to that country myself, but then that is just me and I am not Jewish. :wave:

J put up a great summary of the cross-section of support that Israel receives. The financial stipend that the USA provides to Israel is not "free and clear". Up to 65% of that must be invested in the United States, which is the reason that instead of using Tavors, our unit opted to buy M4A1s. In other words, a majority portion of "US aid to Israel" is actually something like a back door subsidy from Washington to the US military-industrial complex.

Binyamin Netanyahu started a program that would have gradually reduced the amount of US aid coming to Israel so that by 2008, we would be receiving none. Unfortunately, Barak and Olmert reversed course on this. The American aid makes up less and less a percentage of our GDP each year.

The American-Israeli alliance is also in existence only because Israel provides an economic and development benefit to the American economy. Remember that the USA wasn't really all that interested in Israel until Israel could be of use in stifling the expansion of the Soviet sphere of influence in the Middle East. In the Middle East, the Israeli economy now trails only Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and Turkey in overall GDP according to the IMF. Two of those are major oil producing countries and the population of Turkey is nearly 10 times that of Israel.

The more ignorant types out there believe the myth that "America props up Israel", and think that as soon as American pulls support it's all over. That's just not true.

Here is all you have to do. If you can get enough of your countrymen [...] blah blah blah.

http://brentroos.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/troll.jpg

[LittleLambofJesus]

The more ignorant types out there believe the myth that "America props up Israel", and think that as soon as American pulls support it's all over. That's just not true.I think you are on to something there. Don't forget also that a lot of chistians are waiting on the future "armegeddon". Reps coming your way. :)

Reve 16:16 And it together-assembling/sunhgagen <4863> (5627) them into the place, the being called to Hebrew armageddwn

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Hey, it's whatever you guys want.:cool:

[Nooj]

J put up a great summary of the cross-section of support that Israel receives. The financial stipend that the USA provides to Israel is not "free and clear". Up to 65% of that must be invested in the United States, which is the reason that instead of using Tavors, our unit opted to buy M4A1s. In other words, a majority portion of "US aid to Israel" is actually something like a back door subsidy from Washington to the US military-industrial complex.

Binyamin Netanyahu started a program that would have gradually reduced the amount of US aid coming to Israel so that by 2008, we would be receiving none. Unfortunately, Barak and Olmert reversed course on this. The American aid makes up less and less a percentage of our GDP each year.

The American-Israeli alliance is also in existence only because Israel provides an economic and development benefit to the American economy. Remember that the USA wasn't really all that interested in Israel until Israel could be of use in stifling the expansion of the Soviet sphere of influence in the Middle East. In the Middle East, the Israeli economy now trails only Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and Turkey in overall GDP according to the IMF. Two of those are major oil producing countries and the population of Turkey is nearly 10 times that of Israel.

The more ignorant types out there believe the myth that "America props up Israel", and think that as soon as American pulls support it's all over. That's just not true.

That's the government. Don't the people however support Israel primarily due to religious reasons? Either because they feel Israel has God's favour and supporting God's favoured country brings God's favour to America in turn (I think John Hagee believes this), or because Israel has an 'interesting' role to play in eschatology. Or simply because they love Israel.

[Qalevra]

That's the government. Don't the people however support Israel primarily due to religious reasons? Either because they feel Israel has God's favour and supporting God's favoured country brings God's favour to America in turn (I think John Hagee believes this), or because Israel has an 'interesting' role to play in eschatology. Or simply because they love Israel.

I acknowledged J's (jaihare) post at the beginning of my post. ;) He addressed the issue of support from Christians very well, and I agree 100% with him.

In addition, I've heard from non-religious types some sentiment of admiration for how Israel has been able to fight off the multiple real threats to our existence.

[ShirChadash]

After a few failed rebellions, destruction of the temple, split from Christianity

^_^


there's not one thing educated about THAT assertion.

[LittleLambofJesus]

I acknowledged J's (jaihare) post at the beginning of my post. ;) He addressed the issue of support from Christians very well, and I agree 100% with him.

In addition, I've heard from non-religious types some sentiment of admiration for how Israel has been able to fight off the multiple real threats to our existence.I would tend to agree. The US is rather "lucky" to have 2 great oceans surrounding our continent and wonder what it would be like today if the eastern seaboard was connected to the western seaboard of Europe and the mid-east. I wouldn't even want to imagine that. ^_^

Luke 16:26 And on all of these, between Us [NC Faith/Life] and Ye [OC Law/Death] a great chasm hath been established, so that those willing to cross-over/diabhnai <1224> (5629) hence toward ye not be able to, no yet thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276>.

Hebrews 11:29 By Faith They crossed-over/diebhsan <1224> (5627) the Red Sea as thru Dry: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

[ShirChadash]

He would make a good Pope. :)

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7149859&page=100
Is the Pope the most powerful voice for Christianity today?

^_^ ^_^ ^_^

[Mikeb85]

^_^


there's not one thing educated about THAT assertion.

Maybe I used wrong wording. But there's certainly nothing incorrect about saying that Christianity started out as a sect of Judaism, and split from the rest of Judaism.

[ShirChadash]

Maybe I used wrong wording. But there's certainly nothing incorrect about saying that Christianity started out as a sect of Judaism, and split from the rest of Judaism.
yes -- chr*tianity diverged -- Judaism never was a part of chr*tianity nor did it "split off" from chr*tianity. My apologies -- there are some hereabouts who have claimed that the chr*tians are the true Jews, that chr*tianity is true Judaism and that Jews are the ones who took leave of the religion called JUDAISM.

[LittleLambofJesus]

yes -- chr*tianity diverged -- Judaism never was a part of chr*tianity nor did it "split off" from chr*tianity. My apologies -- there are some hereabouts who have claimed that the chr*tians are the true Jews, that chr*tianity is true Judaism and that Jews are the ones who took leave of the religion called JUDAISM.Jesus appears to have said the same thing here, though the wording in the greek is rather perplexing here concerning "out of". Will have to look at this closer........

http://www.scripture4all.org/

John 4:22 Ye are worshipping which not ye know. We are worshipping which we have known, that the Salvation out of-the Judeans/Jews/ioudaiwn <2453> is.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

yes -- chr*tianity diverged -- Judaism never was a part of chr*tianity nor did it "split off" from chr*tianity. My apologies -- there are some hereabouts who have claimed that the chr*tians are the true Jews, that chr*tianity is true Judaism and that Jews are the ones who took leave of the religion called JUDAISM. I have said that there are those who have not paid attention to the fact that a change has come about. True Christianity is a sect of Judaism. A Jew is a convert to Judaism. The Hebrews are a race of people.

[zaksmummy]

there are some hereabouts who have claimed that the chr*tians are the true Jews, that chr*tianity is true Judaism and that Jews are the ones who took leave of the religion called JUDAISM.

Thats cos they believe in replacement theology, which is a load of crap

[jaihare]

Jesus appears to have said the same thing here, though the wording in the greek is rather perplexing here concerning "out of". Will have to look at this closer........

http://www.scripture4all.org/

John 4:22 Ye are worshipping which not ye know. We are worshipping which we have known, that the Salvation out of-the Judeans/Jews/ioudaiwn <2453> is.
Because you don't know Greek. ;) The Greek εξ/εκ does not only mean "out of". It also means "from". This is saying that salvation comes from the Jews. If you knew Greek, you wouldn't have a problem with this. It's not problematic Greek at all. It's just someone who doesn't know Greek confused by his transliterations and weak reference sites.

Jason

[LittleLambofJesus]

Because you don't know Greek. ;) The Greek εξ/εκ does not only mean "out of". It also means "from". This is saying that salvation comes from the Jews. If you knew Greek, you wouldn't have a problem with this. It's not problematic Greek at all. It's just someone who doesn't know Greek confused by his transliterations and weak reference sites.

JasonOk thanks. I learn something new everyday as I was studying on that just today. Here are a few examples where "ek" is used and "ex" is used.

John 4:22 Ye are worshipping which not ye know. We are worshipping which we have known, that the Salvation out//from/ek <1537> of-the Judeans is

2 Corin 6:17 "wherefore, out-come/ex-elqete <1831> (5628) out/from/ek <1537> of midst of them, and be being severed is saying Lord, and of-unclean-thing no be touching!, and-I shall receive ye",

Reve 18:4 And I hear another voice out/from/ek <1537> of the heaven, saying, "out-come/ex-elqete <1831> (5628)! out/ex <1537> of Her My people, that no ye may not being together-communioning to the Sins of her, and out/from/ek <1537> of the stripes of her that no ye may be getting". [Tex-Rec out of order]

[jaihare]

Ok thanks. I learn something new everyday as I was studying on that just today. Here are a few examples where "ek" is used and "ex" is used.
"Ek" and "ex" are not different words. They are the same word. When the word appears before a word with a consonant in the beginning, it is ek; when it appears before a vowel, it is ex. Simple as that. Do you think that they are separate words?!?

Jason

[ShirChadash]

True Christianity is a sect of Judaism. A Jew is a convert to Judaism. The Hebrews are a race of people.
No matter how you try to change the meanings of words and terms and definition, you may not. Fact is fact, regardless your personal acceptance of such.

Oh, and I wasn't referring to you in my previous comment, but you can sure lump yourself in the replacement gig :thumbsup: .

[HalcyonFire]

This is taken from a discussion in the MJ forum.
Over and over I hear Christians say that Judaism today
is nothing like that in the "first century". Basically
they are saying that their Christian perception
of what Judaism should be and was in Jesus' time
is correct, and Judaism today is a false, man made
religion.


Not being a historian of any kind, why do they believe this?
What evidence do they have ( in their eyes) that their Christian
based MJ is the "true" Judaism?
I have no dog in this fight one way or the other... but I do have a question. Was the Talmud around then and such documents about interprtation? Maybe that's what they're referring too. (not to mention the niceties like crock pots, etc.)

[Qalevra]

The Talmud existed in oral form before its necessity to be put down in written form after the destruction of the temple, hence why it is called "Oral Torah" ;)

[debi b]

If this is too far off the topic pleas feel free to ignore :wave:

How has Judaism changed with out a Temple?

[Lulav]

Because you don't know Greek. ;) The Greek εξ/εκ does not only mean "out of". It also means "from". This is saying that salvation comes from the Jews. If you knew Greek, you wouldn't have a problem with this. It's not problematic Greek at all. It's just someone who doesn't know Greek confused by his transliterations and weak reference sites.

JasonAnd How does it come from the Jews, and what Salvation?

[jaihare]

And How does it come from the Jews, and what Salvation?
כי מציון תצא תורה ודבר ה' מירושלים
For the Torah shall come forth from Zion and the word of HaShem from Jerusalem.

Mashiach will be Jewish, and when he arrives the entire world will come to know HaShem as the only God. Thus, salvation (truth, redemption, resurrection from the dead, and eternal life) will come from the Jews.

Jason

[ContraMundum]

Let's not forget tourist dollars that come into Israel from Christians.

Then their are Christians who donate to Jewish charities.

Good points, and true....



jaihare, are there Israeli charities that support Christians, Israeli or not? I've never heard of one but I don't live there. Could you help?

[ContraMundum]

Over and over I hear Christians say that Judaism today
is nothing like that in the "first century".

It isn't- we hear it over and over from honest, educated Rabbinic Jews too. Perhaps not from "true believers" here in this cesspool but from the educated, qualified orthodox commentators on the topic, we hear it. All religions will develop and change over a couple of thousand years. Especially if the heart of their religion is removed, when changed is forced upon it.

You're not insinuating that better qualified authors are wrong, are you? You and I both know there is a litany of Jewish authors that will tell you that things have changed a lot since the 1stC- but they will also say that this is not a bad thing either- it's still all "ok", even though it is radically different in some respects. Jewish authors will tell you that the core essence and essentials of Judaism are still there, and that Judaism is still a safe place to die, so to speak.

[Lulav]

כי מציון תצא תורה ודבר ה' מירושלים
For the Torah shall come forth from Zion and the word of HaShem from Jerusalem.

Mashiach will be Jewish, and when he arrives the entire world will come to know HaShem as the only God. Thus, salvation (truth, redemption, resurrection from the dead, and eternal life) will come from the Jews.

Jason

I thought the Torah came forth from Mt Sinai? How is it to come forth from Yerushalyim?

Also I thought, ( I read this repeatedly somewhere) that Jews don't believe a need for salvation, so that is why I don't understand, how when he comes it will bring salvation, how does that work?

[jaihare]

I thought the Torah came forth from Mt Sinai? How is it to come forth from Yerushalyim?

Also I thought, ( I read this repeatedly somewhere) that Jews don't believe a need for salvation, so that is why I don't understand, how when he comes it will bring salvation, how does that work?
Torah was given from Heaven upon Mt. Sinai, of course. However, Torah (that is, the instruction involved in performing the will of God, which is more than just the five books of Moses) will go forth from Jerusalem, meaning that it will be taught from there as the center. Jerusalem will be the center of Torah learning for the whole world. Everyone will look to Jerusalem for decisions on halachah and Torah matters.

What is wrong that I have to clarify this six times? I know that's an exaggeration, but I figured you guys would get a simple reference that comes directly from the Bible — both of the Jewish Scriptures (which I referred to) and from your Christian Bible. :shrug:

Jason

[LittleLambofJesus]

Torah was given from Heaven upon Mt. Sinai, of course. However, Torah (that is, the instruction involved in performing the will of God, which is more than just the five books of Moses) will go forth from Jerusalem, meaning that it will be taught from there as the center. Jerusalem will be the center of Torah learning for the whole world. Everyone will look to Jerusalem for decisions on halachah and Torah matters.

What is wrong that I have to clarify this six times? I know that's an exaggeration, but I figured you guys would get a simple reference that comes directly from the Bible — both of the Jewish Scriptures (which I referred to) and from your Christian Bible. :shrug:

JasonI of course disagree and will not be looking toward your earthly Jerusalem for the "Torah" to lead me, as my Jerusalem is "ABOVE" and the "Torah" is written in my heart. But then, if that is your view, I respect it. :wave:

Out with the OLD:

Luke 21:5 And certain saying about the Temple that to Stones ideal, and devoted-things it hath been adorned/worlded/kekosmhtai <2885>, He said,

In with the NEW:

Reve 21:2 And the city, the holy, Jerusalem, New, I perceived descending out of the heaven from the God, having been made ready as bride having been adorned/worlded/kekosmhmenhn <2885> (5772) to the man of her. :preach:

[ShirChadash]

Good points, and true....



jaihare, are there Israeli charities that support Christians, Israeli or not? I've never heard of one but I don't live there. Could you help?
כס ושלום

[ContraMundum]

כס ושלום

Just throwing two words at us is useless. No help at all- doesn't answer the question.

Perhaps its better if you let the Israeli respond? There's a reason I asked for that. If i wanted an answer from the Diaspora, I would have said so.

[jaihare]

By כס ושלום she meant "God forbid". Technically it should be חס rather than כס, but what can you do? Shir.... we need to talk about your Hebrew homework. ;) LOL

[jaihare]

Just throwing two words at us is useless. No help at all- doesn't answer the question.

Perhaps its better if you let the Israeli respond? There's a reason I asked for that. If i wanted an answer from the Diaspora, I would have said so.
I'm not the Israeli. I've lived in Israel for one year, and I hardly know all of the charities and inner workings of things that I do not participate in. I am unaware of Israeli charities to Christians. It doesn't make sense to me that Israelis would collect money just to give to Christians. However, I'm sure there are many Israelis who give charity to "Feed the Needy" programs, which include Christians and everyone else as the recipients of assistance.

I do not think that Israelis will give money directly to sponsor Christian activities, but they will definitely give money to feed the hungry and give medical attention to those in need.

Jason

[ShirChadash]

By כס ושלום she meant "God forbid". Technically it should be חס rather than כס, but what can you do? Shir.... we need to talk about your Hebrew homework. ;) LOL
DARN IT!


My bad, Teach. Does it mitigate my failings, that I wrote it right the first time I tried to post it? (I didn't think so ^_^ )

[ShirChadash]

I do not think that Israelis will give money directly to sponsor Christian activities, but they will definitely give money to feed the hungry and give medical attention to those in need.

Jason
that's what I was hoping.

[Steve Petersen]

I'm not the Israeli. I've lived in Israel for one year, and I hardly know all of the charities and inner workings of things that I do not participate in. I am unaware of Israeli charities to Christians. It doesn't make sense to me that Israelis would collect money just to give to Christians. However, I'm sure there are many Israelis who give charity to "Feed the Needy" programs, which include Christians and everyone else as the recipients of assistance.

I do not think that Israelis will give money directly to sponsor Christian activities, but they will definitely give money to feed the hungry and give medical attention to those in need.

Jason

Ever heard of the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews? Thousand of Christians donate to this Jewish charity that takes care of needy JEWS in Israel. Run by Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein.

http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageNavigator/eng/about/

[Torah613]

actually, Jason is right. Jews do not make distinctions when it comes to people who are in need of Tzedakhah. In fact, if a member of the aryan nation group went to the doorstep of any Orthodox Jew and said "I am starving, can you maybe spare a bite of bread," the Jew would be obligated by Halacha to provide him/her with not just a bite of bread but a complete meal.

Now that's an extreme example, but the basic principle is the same. We give tzedakhah to anyone and all in need, not just Jews. However, tzedakhah doesn't extend to providing money for the religious programs of other religious groups.

Are you familiar with the teachings about the Lamed Vov? they are not restricted to being Jews. In fact they will be from various nations, in all generations. The Ten Booms mentioned in one of your other posts could have easily been such individuals.

FYI that charity you mentioned is very controversial in frum soceity.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

now, regarding the rest of this thread, yes elementals of normative Judaism has changed over time. 400 years ago we were required by chr*stian law to live in ghettos. 100 years ago crockpots did not exist.

But fundamentals do not change. the Halacha does not and can not change. How it is applied can and does change. The Torah does not change, the day of Shabbos cannot change, the days of the holidays cannot change (although new holidays can be added).

So in essence, yes what we do today would not be recognizable to 1st century Jews. They would stare in wonder at the timers on our lightswitches, scratch their heads at our crockpots, and be amazed by shabbos mode elevators. However, what we believe would be recognizable.

Yochanan

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ever heard of the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews? Thousand of Christians donate to this Jewish charity that takes care of needy JEWS in Israel. Run by Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein.

http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageNavigator/eng/about/Aren't there plenty of needy people all over the world? Africa and South America come to mind.
Why focus on just a "religion" of people and not just PEOPLE. There is already division enough within CHRIST-ianity itself so why don't we straighten out our own House before trying to tell other religions to get their House in order.

Btw, anyone see this article brought up on the GA board? This story disturbed me so much I can see why atheists harbor such a deep resentment towards those of us who believe unto the Faith that is of our Lord, Savior and King JESUS.

I suppose the BIBLE tends to do this to certain groups. Sigh.......

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7259977

ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. -- A University of Central Florida student, upset religious groups hold church services on public campuses, is holding hostage the Eucharist, an object so sacred to Catholics they call it the Body of Christ............

[Steve Petersen]

Aren't there plenty of needy people all over the world? Africa and South America come to mind.
Why focus on just a "religion" of people and not just PEOPLE. There is already division enough within CHRIST-ianity itself so why don't we straighten out our own House before trying to tell other religions to get their House in order.

What makes you think these people give ONLY to Jewish charities?

[LittleLambofJesus]

What makes you think these people give ONLY to Jewish charities?Well you appear to have "emphasized" that in your post. If I read it wrong, then I apologize. Peace. :wave:

Coll 3:11 Therefore not therein greek, and judean, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian scythian, bond-slave free-one but the all and in all, Christ.

Gal 3:28 Not therein judean, neither greek, not therein bond-servant neither free-one, not therein male and female, for all ye One are in Christ Jesus

[ContraMundum]

By כס ושלום she meant "God forbid". Technically it should be חס rather than כס, but what can you do?

Well, I wasn't gonna say anything. I'd get reported or something because onlookers would think I was picking on her. That's one reason it's always better to speak the lingua franca in the forum.

I'm not the Israeli. I've lived in Israel for one year, and I hardly know all of the charities and inner workings of things that I do not participate in. I am unaware of Israeli charities to Christians. It doesn't make sense to me that Israelis would collect money just to give to Christians. However, I'm sure there are many Israelis who give charity to "Feed the Needy" programs, which include Christians and everyone else as the recipients of assistance.

I do not think that Israelis will give money directly to sponsor Christian activities, but they will definitely give money to feed the hungry and give medical attention to those in need.This is exactly what I suspected. What is the position of your average Israeli towards giving money for food and clothing to needy Arab Christians in Israel? Is there such a thing as an "average" position on this in Israel?

actually, Jason is right. Jews do not make distinctions when it comes to people who are in need of Tzedakhah. In fact, if a member of the aryan nation group went to the doorstep of any Orthodox Jew and said "I am starving, can you maybe spare a bite of bread," the Jew would be obligated by Halacha to provide him/her with not just a bite of bread but a complete meal.

I realise and praise that- but regretfully I've not seen it in action. In the shule where I grew up, all giving of tzedakah was to Jews, to Israel and the like. I have absolutely no recollection of charity ever going to starving people in Africa, and to this day myself and my family are all devout givers to Jewish charities and organisations. But this is one area I felt that our shule fell terribly short. And yes, when I compared it to the Christian charities it was a factor in my distancing myself from the shule. I felt embarrased. I suspect that perhaps other shules were better at that than us.

Do you think this has changed much in recent times? I'd like to know about that.

[ContraMundum]

now, regarding the rest of this thread, yes elementals of normative Judaism has changed over time. 400 years ago we were required by chr*stian law to live in ghettos. 100 years ago crockpots did not exist.

But fundamentals do not change. the Halacha does not and can not change. How it is applied can and does change. The Torah does not change, the day of Shabbos cannot change, the days of the holidays cannot change (although new holidays can be added).

So in essence, yes what we do today would not be recognizable to 1st century Jews. They would stare in wonder at the timers on our lightswitches, scratch their heads at our crockpots, and be amazed by shabbos mode elevators. However, what we believe would be recognizable.

Yochanan

I think there's been a massive change in fundamentals. The heart of the Torah is concerned with animal sacrifices, worship in the Tabernacle, often lethal punishments for sin and the like- none of which is done today.

[Torah613]

the shul I used to attend sent food and blankets to a palestinian camp.

Just because some Jews don't follow the practice, why not stay Jewish and show them how to really keep a mitzvah?

Yochanan

[Torah613]

and what do you think we did during the babylonian galus? You are looking only at the written Torah, not the oral torah.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

I think there's been a massive change in fundamentals. The heart of the Torah is concerned with animal sacrifices, worship in the Tabernacle, often lethal punishments for sin and the like- none of which is done today.

These are the externals, not the fundamentals. These are the ways we live out the ideals of Torah when the Beis HaMikdash is standing. But look at what we did during the Babylonian Galus.

yochanan

[ContraMundum]

I understand where you're coming from brother....truly. I am thinking that a lot that comes out of the "changes" are of disputable origin, and much of the oral Torah is unverifyable. However, this is the nature of all religions, in the end: we take certain assertions on faith, giving our allegiance to propositions which are not necessarily air tight from a human or logical point of view. We all do it.

[Torah613]

I would also point out, that yes certain things (the external trappings) may change over time, but that is natural. Judaism is not a static thing. It is a language, not a dead language, of the love affair between Am Yisrail and HaShem.

Yochanan

[kivi]

This is taken from a discussion in the MJ forum.
Over and over I hear Christians say that Judaism today
is nothing like that in the "first century". Basically
they are saying that their Christian perception
of what Judaism should be and was in Jesus' time
is correct, and Judaism today is a false, man made
religion.


Not being a historian of any kind, why do they believe this?
What evidence do they have ( in their eyes) that their Christian
based MJ is the "true" Judaism?

kivi says: There is no historical evidence for their claim, in fact, just the opposite is true. However, if they can convince people that Judaism was hi-jacked by some evil Rabbis and that Christianity is the true and only Judaism, they can prove that they are right and all current Jews are wrong. It is simple identity theft on the part of Christian Missionaries.

[visionary]

This is taken from a discussion in the MJ forum.
Over and over I hear Christians say that Judaism today
is nothing like that in the "first century". Basically
they are saying that their Christian perception
of what Judaism should be and was in Jesus' time
is correct, and Judaism today is a false, man made
religion.


Not being a historian of any kind, why do they believe this?
What evidence do they have ( in their eyes) that their Christian
based MJ is the "true" Judaism?Babylonian Judaism is not Mount Sinai Judaism... If both parties go back to Mount Sinai when the Ten commandments were spoken in all seventy known languages by God Himself and just get that much right.. The Lord would be honored.

[Nooj]

Babylonian Judaism is not Mount Sinai Judaism This is why ChavaK was asking for evidence to prove this.


... If both parties go back to Mount Sinai when the Ten commandments were spoken in all seventy known languages by God Himself and just get that much right.. The Ten Commandments were given in seventy languages? I must have missed that in reading Exodus.

The Lord would be honored.You speak for God?

[Torah613]

Nooj, I wish I could rep that post a hundred times.

Truth in a nutshell.

Yochanan

[visionary]

This is why ChavaK was asking for evidence to prove this.

The Ten Commandments were given in seventy languages? I must have missed that in reading Exodus.

You speak for God?passive aggressive response

[Torah613]

so, where is your evidence for saying that the ten commandments were given in seventy languages?

Yochanan

[Nooj]

I don't even have to pay for the diagnosis! Maybe the Scientologists were right...psychiatry is a sham. :P

How can we trust you if you don't support your claims, and if you're not prepared to defend your statements, why even make them?

[Steve Petersen]

so, where is your evidence for saying that the ten commandments were given in seventy languages?

Yochanan

Exodus Rabbah 5:9

When God gave the Torah on Sinai, He displayed untold marvels to Israel with His voice. What happened? God spoke and the Voice reverberated throughout the world. Israel heard the Voice coming to them from the south2 so to the south they ran to meet the Voice. From the south, it changed round to the north, so they ran to the north. From the north it shifted to the east, so they ran to the east; but from the east it shifted to the west, so they ran to the west. From the west it shifted to the heavens. But when they raised their eyes heavenwards, it seemed to proceed from the earth, so they glanced to the earth, as it is said: Out of heaven He made thee to hear His voice, that He might instruct thee; and upon earth He made thee to see His great fire; and thou didst hear His words out of the midst of the fire (Deut. IV, 36). Then did the Israelites say one to another: But wisdom, where shall it be found (Job XXVIII, 12). The Israelites were inquiring: ‘Whence cometh the Lord, from the east or south?’ as it is said: The Lord came from Sinai, and rose3 from Seir unto them (Deut. XXXIII, 2), and it is written God cometh from Teman (Hab. III, 3).4 It says: And all the people perceived the thunderings (Ex. XX, 15). Note that it does not say ‘the thunder ‘,5 but ’ the thunderings ‘; wherefore R. Johanan said that God's voice, as it was uttered, split up into seventy voices, in seventy languages, so that all the nations should understand.6 When each nation heard the Voice in their own vernacular their souls departed,7 save Israel who heard but who were not hurt.8

[LittleLambofJesus]

Exodus Rabbah 5:9

When God gave the Torah on Sinai, He displayed untold marvels to Israel with His voice. What happened? God spoke and the Voice reverberated throughout the world.
What about Hebrew 12 in the GNT? ;)

Hebrew 12:18 For not ye have come toward to being handled a mountain, and to having been kindled to fire, and to murkiness, and to darkness and to tempest.
19and of a trumpet blaring and to sound/voice of declarations, of which the ones hearing refused no to be added to them a Word.
20 For not they carried out the being cautioned and if a wild-beast may be touching the mountain it shall be being stone cast or a dart shot thru it.
21And thus fearful the appearizing, Moses said 'Terrified I am and in trembling'.

Revelation 8:8 And the second messenger did sound, and as it were a great Mountain [Mt Sinai/OC Law?] with fire burning was cast into the Sea,.......[Matthew 21:21/Hebrew 12:18]

[Nooj]

Re: Steve Petersen

A google later, and it appears in the Talmud as well as the midrash that you quoted. I didn't know that. I learn something new everyday.

I also didn't know that Messianics believed in the Oral Law??

[Steve Petersen]

Re: Steve Petersen

A google later, and it appears in the Talmud as well as the midrash that you quoted. I didn't know that. I learn something new everyday.

I also didn't know that Messianics believed in the Oral Law??

Only the parts we like! :D

Seriously, I think they have great value in trying to get a grip on the historical/cultural backdrop of the NT. To some degree anyway.

For instance, try reading Romans 14 against the backdrop of tractate Avodah Zarah in the Mishnah or Talmud.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Only the parts we like! :D

Seriously, I think they have great value in trying to get a grip on the historical/cultural backdrop of the NT. To some degree anyway.

For instance, try reading Romans 14 against the backdrop of tractate Avodah Zarah in the Mishnah or Talmud.Do you as a Christian still keep the Jewish day of Sabbath, Saturday? I don't myself, as I believe it is fulfilled in the "REST" of JESUS.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7253176
Why do Christians argue over the Sabbath?

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7235410&page=90
Christians.. desecrating the Sabbath

[ContraMundum]

Re: Steve Petersen

A google later, and it appears in the Talmud as well as the midrash that you quoted. I didn't know that. I learn something new everyday.

I also didn't know that Messianics believed in the Oral Law??

That would depend one what role one thinks the oral law plays, and one's understanding on its authority in tandem with the written law.

Also, some Messianics believe the Church has an oral law in the same way as Israel does.

But, Steve's comment is true too!

[debi b]

Do you as a Christian still keep the Jewish day of Sabbath, Saturday? I don't myself, as I believe it is fulfilled in the "REST" of JESUS.

Yup ;) Shabbat is a deeeeelight!

[visionary]

Sabbath is a rest God gives the soul.

[Torah613]

no, Shabbos is a mitzvah given to Bnai Yisrail. now a day of rest, sure everyone needs it. but shabbos, with its attendant mitzvoth, were given specifically to the Jewish people.

Ok, so you go to a messianic synagogue. do y'all recite veshamru? think about what it says.

[visionary]

no, Shabbos is a mitzvah given to Bnai Yisrail. now a day of rest, sure everyone needs it. but shabbos, with its attendant mitzvoth, were given specifically to the Jewish people.

Ok, so you go to a messianic synagogue. do y'all recite veshamru? think about what it says.Don't have to.. I am not a jew... I, however. do the biblical sabbath rest God gave us all.... remember the seventy languages to the seventy nations... it is for us all.

[Torah613]

so what do you do? do you abstain from the 39 mekhalot? How do you observe your "shabbos"?

Shabbos is a mitzvah given exclusively to the Jews. It says so right in the torah.

Ex 31: 16. Thus shall the children of Israel observe the Sabbath, to make the Sabbath throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant.
17. Between Me and the children of Israel, it is forever a sign that [in] six days The Lord created the heaven and the earth, and on the seventh day He ceased and rested."

[Torah613]

BTW, that is the text for veshamru in case you didnt' know.

Yochanan

[kivi]

I have said that there are those who have not paid attention to the fact that a change has come about. True Christianity is a sect of Judaism.
kivi says: False

A Jew is a convert to Judaism.
kivi says: False.

The Hebrews are a race of people.
kivi says: False

[kivi]

If this is too far off the topic pleas feel free to ignore :wave:

How has Judaism changed with out a Temple?

kivi says: The Temple was the #1 spiritual system for atonement. Without that process, a lot of 'spiritual messies' are not being cleaned up. The world suffers for that lack. It is one the prime things that Moshiach will do with the re-building of the Temple, the cleaning up of 2000 years of spiritual waste/debris/messies.

[HalcyonFire]

this may sound dumb, but how does the world suffer?

[kivi]

And How does it come from the Jews, and what Salvation?

kivi says: IN large part, see the previous post: The atonement system as mediated through the Temple.

[kivi]

kivi says: 'Jewish authors' is not a source; got any names, titles, etc?


It isn't- we hear it over and over from honest, educated Rabbinic Jews too. Perhaps not from "true believers" here in this cesspool but from the educated, qualified orthodox commentators on the topic, we hear it. All religions will develop and change over a couple of thousand years. Especially if the heart of their religion is removed, when changed is forced upon it.

You're not insinuating that better qualified authors are wrong, are you? You and I both know there is a litany of Jewish authors that will tell you that things have changed a lot since the 1stC- but they will also say that this is not a bad thing either- it's still all "ok", even though it is radically different in some respects. Jewish authors will tell you that the core essence and essentials of Judaism are still there, and that Judaism is still a safe place to die, so to speak.

[kivi]

I thought the Torah came forth from Mt Sinai? How is it to come forth from Yerushalyim?
Because the Temple will be in Jerusalem



Also I thought, ( I read this repeatedly somewhere) that Jews don't believe a need for salvation, so that is why I don't understand, how when he comes it will bring salvation, how does that work?
kivi says: We never said that we don't believe in salvation. What we said is: "All of B'nai israel and the Rigtheous of the Nations have a portion in Olam Habah.' So, G-d is our Savior and He has saved us, both in the past and in the future.

[kivi]

I think there's been a massive change in fundamentals. The heart of the Torah is concerned with animal sacrifices, worship in the Tabernacle, often lethal punishments for sin and the like- none of which is done today.


kivi says:Sorry, CM but you are absolutely wrong.

[kivi]

Babylonian Judaism is not Mount Sinai Judaism... If both parties go back to Mount Sinai when the Ten commandments were spoken in all seventy known languages by God Himself and just get that much right.. The Lord would be honored.
kivi says: The continuity is there, the cast of characters is continous. The processes were the same, the Halachah was the same. We were sent into Galus becaue of our sins, but G-d did not divorce us. We are still His Challel. Purim is proof of that.

[kivi]

this may sound dumb, but how does the world suffer?

kivi says: I could point out to you the condition of the morals of the world. The on-gong degradation of people througout the world. The world needs Moshiach.

[LittleLambofJesus]

kivi says: I could point out to you the condition of the morals of the world. The on-gong degradation of people througout the world. The world needs Moshiach.The ones the Muslims and Christians believe was your Moshiach, or the one coming in the future for the Orthodox Jews? Just curious. Shalom.

Luke 24:44 He said yet toward them "these the words of Me which I speak toward ye still being together ye, that is binding to be filled all the having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772) in the Law of Moses, and the prophets and psalms about Me".

Acts 13:29 As yet they finish all-things the about Him having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772,) according-lifting from the wood they place into a tomb.

[HalcyonFire]

but hasn't the world been bascially degrading continually since the tree incident? seems to me that it'd be hard to grade it as any %age wise worse with/without the temple (not decrying your idea, but not seeing any concrete... concreteness about it - me and my pseudo-words)

[kivi]

The ones the Muslims and Christians believe was your Moshiach, or the one coming in the future for the Orthodox Jews? Just curious. Shalom.

Luke 24:44 He said yet toward them "these the words of Me which I speak toward ye still being together ye, that is binding to be filled all the having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772) in the Law of Moses, and the prophets and psalms about Me".

Acts 13:29 As yet they finish all-things the about Him having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772,) according-lifting from the wood they place into a tomb.

kivbi says: If I might change just one word: "the one coming in the future for the Orthodox Jews" to 'the one coming in the future according to the Orthodox Jews". We believe that Moshiach comes for everybody.

[kivi]

but hasn't the world been bascially degrading continually since the tree incident? seems to me that it'd be hard to grade it as any %age wise worse with/without the temple (not decrying your idea, but not seeing any concrete... concreteness about it - me and my pseudo-words)

kivi says: Concrete-ness: the end of prophecy.

[LittleLambofJesus]

kivbi says: If I might change just one word: "the one coming in the future for the Orthodox Jews" to 'the one coming in the future according to the Orthodox Jews". We believe that Moshiach comes for everybody.That is my view also but I just happen to view JESUS as the One. :amen:

[HalcyonFire]

kivi says: Concrete-ness: the end of prophecy.
??? seeing what you're implying (that all will be better when this occurs) but not how the temple being/not being has any influence on this persay.

[Torah613]

kivi says: I could point out to you the condition of the morals of the world. The on-gong degradation of people througout the world. The world needs Moshiach.

Omayn! May HaMalechHaMoshiach come swiftly and in our days!

Yochanan

[LittleLambofJesus]

Omayn! May HaMalechHaMoshiach come swiftly and in our days!

YochananWell, that is what JESUS promised to the Jews and Israel. Odd as this was visioned almost 2000yrs ago. :sorry:

Revelation 1:1 An-un-covering Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him, which-things is binding to be becoming in Swiftness.

Revelation 22:6 And said to me: "These, the Words Faithful and True. And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy Prophets, commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming in Swiftness.

[Torah613]

he also prophesied that the temple would be torn stone from stone, not one stone left upon another.

Yet the Kossel still stands.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

ifyour going to start interpreting chr*Stian prophecies literally, you should do so consistantly.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

please provide scripture will ya (so I don't actually have to go look myself - lazy person that I am)

[Torah613]

and just how on earth am I to provide citations in the chr*Stian scriptures? I remember this episode very clearly as its in all four gospels and struck me as so odd.

As to specific citations i haven't a clue as it is halachically forbidden to own the scriptures of foreign religions in our homes (this is the strict interpretation, there is a more leniant interpretation as well).

Yochanan

[LittleLambofJesus]

he also prophesied that the temple would be torn stone from stone, not one stone left upon another.

Yet the Kossel still stands.

YochananWhat is a Kossel :confused:

Matthew 24:2 and Jesus said to them, "Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be being thrown-down-loosed/kata-luqhsetai <2647> (5701)."

Mark 13:1 And as he is going forth out of the temple, one of his disciples saith to him, `Teacher, see! what stones! and what buildings!' 2 and Jesus answering said to him, "Seest thou these great buildings? there may not be left a stone upon a stone, that may not be thrown down."

Revelation 21:19 and the foundations of the wall of the city with every precious stone have been adorned; the first foundation jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald;

[HalcyonFire]

and just how on earth am I to provide citations in the chr*Stian scriptures? I remember this episode very clearly as its in all four gospels and struck me as so odd.

As to specific citations i haven't a clue as it is halachically forbidden to own the scriptures of foreign religions in our homes (this is the strict interpretation, there is a more leniant interpretation as well).

Yochanan
I meant OT silly goose (in reference to what you said BEFORE the christian scriptures).

[Torah613]

Kossel is hebrew for the Western or Wailing wall. Alternative pronunciation is Kotel.

Yochanan

What is a Kossel :confused:

Matthew 24:2 and Jesus said to them, "Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be being thrown-down-loosed/kata-luqhsetai <2647> (5701)."

Mark 13:1 And as he is going forth out of the temple, one of his disciples saith to him, `Teacher, see! what stones! and what buildings!' 2 and Jesus answering said to him, "Seest thou these great buildings? there may not be left a stone upon a stone, that may not be thrown down."

Revelation 21:19 and the foundations of the wall of the city with every precious stone have been adorned; the first foundation jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald;

[Torah613]

OY ERM, what did I say before hand? let me look back.

[Torah613]

ok I see no tanach references in my posts that have not been cited. Can you point to a specific post?

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

OY ERM, what did I say before hand? let me look back.

he also prophesied that the temple would be torn stone from stone, not one stone left upon another.

Yet the Kossel still stands.

Yochanan
this... of course you probably know that by now ^_^

[LittleLambofJesus]

Kossel is hebrew for the Western or Wailing wall. Alternative pronunciation is Kotel.

Yochanan
Shalom. So in your view that would make the Prophecy that JESUS spoke about concerning the Temple/Sanctuary false?

Isaiah 21:9 And behold this! cometh a chariot of man, pair of horsemen. And he is responding and is saying, "she fell, she fell, Babylon; and all of graven-images of her gods/elohiym he broke to land".

Matt 7:26 And all the one hearing of me the words, these, and no doing them shall be likened to a man, stupid/foolish, who-any builds of him the House upon the sand. And descended the rains and the streams and blow the winds and they toward-strike the house, that, and she falls and was the fall of Her great.

Reve 14:8 And another messenger, second-one, follows saying she falls, she falls, Babylon the Great, the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations.

[kivi]

??? seeing what you're implying (that all will be better when this occurs) but not how the temple being/not being has any influence on this persay.
kivi says: Yes, yes, yes

[HalcyonFire]

kivi says: Yes, yes, yes
:doh1: MORE INFORMATION KIVI... what's the yes yes for?

[Torah613]

this... of course you probably know that by now ^_^

that is from the nt.

Yochanan

[kivi]

kivi says: The level of accuracy in prophecy must be 100%. Any deviation from 100% accuracy as to the facts makes the entire prophecy false and the speaker of the prophecy a false prophet, with all that entails.


Shalom. So in your view that would make the Prophecy that JESUS spoke about concerning the Temple/Sanctuary false?

Isaiah 21:9 And behold this! cometh a chariot of man, pair of horsemen. And he is responding and is saying, "she fell, she fell, Babylon; and all of graven-images of her gods/elohiym he broke to land".

Matt 7:26 And all the one hearing of me the words, these, and no doing them shall be likened to a man, stupid/foolish, who-any builds of him the House upon the sand. And descended the rains and the streams and blow the winds and they toward-strike the house, that, and she falls and was the fall of Her great.

Reve 14:8 And another messenger, second-one, follows saying she falls, she falls, Babylon the Great, the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations.

[HalcyonFire]

ah, I thought you were referring to him quoting OT (or misquoting it) - my bad

[kivi]

Well, that is what JESUS promised to the Jews and Israel. Odd as this was visioned almost 2000yrs ago. :sorry:
kivi says: And he failed to deliever.


Revelation 1:1 An-un-covering Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him, which-things is binding to be becoming in Swiftness.

Revelation 22:6 And said to me: "These, the Words Faithful and True. And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy Prophets, commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming in Swiftness.[/quote]

[LittleLambofJesus]

kivi says: The level of accuracy in prophecy must be 100%. Any deviation from 100% accuracy as to the facts makes the entire prophecy false and the speaker of the prophecy a false prophet, with all that entails.
That is why we CHRIST-ians have a hard time debating the Bible with Jews and Muslims.

I and a lot of other Christians view Revelation as that Prophecy in the Olivet Discourse but as you well know, Christianity is pretty much divided on that book. [The Muslims of course do not read it] Shalom.

Exodus 12:23 And YHWH passes to strike the Egyptians and He sees the blood on the lintel and on two of the jambs and YHWH passes over the portal and not He shall allow the ruiner/07843 shachath to come to houses of you to strike.

Luke 21:28 Beginning yet to-be-becoming these-things, up-bend!, and lift up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing the loosing/apo-lutrwsiV <629> of ye [Daniel 12/Reve 19,20]

Coincidentally, according to Josephus, Titus came upon Jerusalem during the Passover:

http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival and the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers,...........

[kivi]

The prophecy of Moshiach which applies equally to the inportance and power of the Temple and the korban offerings.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>Look at the actual prophecies:He will be of the House of David (Ezekiel 37:24). He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel(Isaiah 11:12).He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27).He will rule at a time of world-wide peace (Micah 4:3).He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d'scommandments (Ezekiel 37:24).He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serveone G-d (Isaiah 66:23).All the Jews, living in Israel, and observant (even the former Xians willreturn to Judaism); a new Temple, world-wide peace, no wars, no scuffles,and all the people, all 6+ billion of them, former Muslims, Xians,Buddhists, atheists, etc., will finally believe in HaShem and serve onlyHim. When all this becomes true, will it not be obvious to the world?Now, you want all these prophecies put together in one place? Look atEzekiel 37:24-28:"And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have oneshepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, anddo them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov myservant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, theyand their children, and their children's children forever; and my servantDavid shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant ofpeace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I willgive them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midstof them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will betheir G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I amthe L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst ofthem forevermore."All the people of the world will know Who is God, and will serve Him, andthey will know without a doubt who His people are and who the messiah is.<<<<<<<<<<<<
:doh1: MORE INFORMATION KIVI... what's the yes yes for?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Then the nations shall know that I amthe L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst ofthem forevermore."All the people of the world will know Who is God, and will serve Him, andthey will know without a doubt who His people are and who the messiah is.<<<<<<<<<<<<
Shalom. Yes I understand that. But in my view, JESUS came to set up a Spiritual Kingdom, not that of the Flesh.
Notice here where Paul quotes from:

2 Corin 6:17 wherefore, come forth ye/exelqete <1831> (5628) out of midst of them, and be ye being separated is saying Lord, and an unclean-thing no ye be touching, and I, I shall be receiving ye, [Isaiah 52:11, Ezekiel 20:34,41]

Reve 18:4 And I hear another voice out of the heaven, saying, "Come forth/exelqete <1831> (5628)! the People of Me, out of Her, that no ye may not being together-communioning to the Sins of her, and out of the stripes of her that no ye may be getting". [2 Corin 6:16-18]

[LittleLambofJesus]

Also Jesus specifically mentioned "a Sabbath" in Matt 24 and if I remember correctly, wasn't the Passover a type of Double Sabbath?

I can't remember what link I got this from:

...."This Sabbath was not the Saturday-Sabbath which begins on Friday evening. This was the High Holy Day Sabbath, which that year fell on a Thursday evening and Friday-DAY. In other words, the HOLY DAY Sabbath (Passover-Unleavened Bread) was followed by their 7th day Saturday-Sabbath, thereby having a double-Sabbath, back-to-back".......................

Matt 24:19 "Woe yet to those in belly having and to those suckling in those the days! 20 "Be ye praying yet that no may be becoming the flight of ye of winter neither a Sabbath.

http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

......The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country,..........

[kivi]

Shalom. Yes I understand that. But in my view, JESUS came to set up a Spiritual Kingdom, not that of the Flesh.
Notice here where Paul quotes from:
kivi says: I know that Christian sets up an either/or between the spiritual and the physical. Judaism does not. Judaism seeks the union of spiritual and physical. That is what Olam Habah is all about. To pick up where Gan Edan was interupted before and get on with the task that G-d gave Mankind, at the beginning. In effect there has been an unfortunate but necessary detour. Now is time>Moshiach< to get off that detour and get on the high road that G-d envisioned for all us, from the very beginning.

2 Corin 6:17 wherefore, come forth ye/exelqete <1831> (5628) out of midst of them, and be ye being separated is saying Lord, and an unclean-thing no ye be touching, and I, I shall be receiving ye, [Isaiah 52:11, Ezekiel 20:34,41]

Reve 18:4 And I hear another voice out of the heaven, saying, "Come forth/exelqete <1831> (5628)! the People of Me, out of Her, that no ye may not being together-communioning to the Sins of her, and out of the stripes of her that no ye may be getting". [2 Corin 6:16-18]

[LittleLambofJesus]

kivi says: I know that Christian sets up an either/or between the spiritual and the physical. Judaism does not. Judaism seeks the union of spiritual and physical. That is what Olam Habah is all about. To pick up where Gan Edan was interupted before and get on with the task that G-d gave Mankind, at the beginning. In effect there has been an unfortunate but necessary detour. Now is time>Moshiach< to get off that detour and get on the high road that G-d envisioned for all us, from the very beginning.Shalom. Sounds good to me. :wave:

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: I know that Christian sets up an either/or between the spiritual and the physical. Judaism does not. Judaism seeks the union of spiritual and physical.

You completely and totally misunderstand/misunderstood Christianity then. The goal/outcome is the same- exactly the same. The process over time is different. We believe He set up a spiritual Kingdom (which is as real as a physical one) but will soon give us a New Heavens and a New Earth as well.

[HalcyonFire]

The prophecy of Moshiach which applies equally to the inportance and power of the Temple and the korban offerings.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>Look at the actual prophecies:He will be of the House of David (Ezekiel 37:24). He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel(Isaiah 11:12). But that's not exactly what it says... it says He will hoist a banner for the goyim, assemble the dispersed of Isra'el, and gather the scattered of Y'hudah from the four corners of the Earth. Is it an intepretation of that, or to Jews, does the assembling together HAVE to mean in Isra'el? Though I see in Ezekiel that 37:25 says something to that affect. He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27).That's not what this says verbatim either...??? I will make a covenant of peace with them, an everlasting covenant. I will give to them, increase their numbers, and set my sanctuary among them forever. My home will be with them; I will be their God and they wil lbe my people. He will rule at a time of world-wide peace (Micah 4:3).He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d'scommandments (Ezekiel 37:24). He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serveone G-d (Isaiah 66:23).All the Jews, living in Israel, and observant (even the former Xians willreturn to Judaism); a new Temple, world-wide peace, no wars, no scuffles,and all the people, all 6+ billion of them, former Muslims, Xians,Buddhists, atheists, etc., will finally believe in HaShem and serve onlyHim. When all this becomes true, will it not be obvious to the world?Sure, but I don't see the same thing as you do in these scriptures... (liek the return of Jews from Islam and Christianity... that's just not overtly stated in any way. We will all worship HaShem for sure... but I think alot seems to be read into the scripture that isn't overtly there. Maybe it'st he history you guys have. No telling. I also don't see the temple thing. I can see how that could be inferred, but inference doesn't make solid fact. KWIM? Now, you want all these prophecies put together in one place? Look atEzekiel 37:24-28:"And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land (isn't this word 'erets? often used in contrast to Cannan? maybe I'm confused) that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Obviously this can't be literal because David ain't comin' back and this has to refer to the Messiah..... Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle (is this mishkan meaning dewelling place... not necessarily temple/tabernacle persay, but that God will dwell among His people, much like He did with Adam and Havah?) shall be with them: and I will betheir G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I amthe L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst ofthem forever more."All the people of the world will know Who is God, and will serve Him, and they will know without a doubt who His people are and who the messiah is.<<<<<<<<<<<<
:thumbsup: thx for the work you did kivi

[LittleLambofJesus]

You completely and totally misunderstand/misunderstood Christianity then. The goal/outcome is the same- exactly the same. The process over time is different. We believe He set up a spiritual Kingdom (which is as real as a physical one) but will soon give us a New Heavens and a New Earth as well.Greetings. My view is that is already fulfilled as the Temple/Sanctuary symbolically represented the "heaven and land" for the Jews/Israelites.
Of course, neither the Jews or Muslims read Revelation so how are they suppose to know what the new "heaven and land" symbolize in the NC. Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 5:18 "For amen I am saying to ye, till ever may-be-passing-away the Heaven and the Land, iota one or one horn not no may-be-passing-away from the Law, till ever all shall-be-becoming" [Revelation 21:1,6]

Revelation 21:1 And I perceived a-Heaven, New, and a-Land, New, for the first heaven and the first land pass-away/......
6 And He said to me:" it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754). . [ISAIAH 65/Matthew 5:18]

[kivi]

You completely and totally misunderstand/misunderstood Christianity then. The goal/outcome is the same- exactly the same. The process over time is different. We believe He set up a spiritual Kingdom (which is as real as a physical one) but will soon give us a New Heavens and a New Earth as well.
kivi says: Well, maybe you're right, after all, from amoung the 1000s and 1000s of different Christian sects, one of them might seek a union of the physical and the spiritual. How about Jim Jones or the Branch Davidian or the Christian Identity or the Tabernacle of Phineas Priesthood. Somewhere, in Chistianity, you can find anything. Jimmy Swaggart and Aimee Semple McPhearson, Rt Rev Gene Robertson and Pat Robertson. Take your pick.:holy:

[ContraMundum]

kivi says: Well, maybe you're right, after all, from amoung the 1000s and 1000s of different Christian sects, one of them might seek a union of the physical and the spiritual. How about Jim Jones or the Branch Davidian or the Christian Identity or the Tabernacle of Phineas Priesthood. Somewhere, in Chistianity, you can find anything. Jimmy Swaggart and Aimee Semple McPhearson, Rt Rev Gene Robertson and Pat Robertson. Take your pick.:holy:

Just so you don't revive this tired old argument, let's talk numbers.

The bulk of the Christian faith is represented by Roman Catholics. There's a billion or so. Then there's the Orthodox, Eastern and Oriental- around 340 million or so. Then there's the mainstream historic Protestants, around 700 million, and then the Anglicans, around 78 million. They'd represent the bulk of Christianity, easily. They pretty much all agree on this and just about everything else. You've mentioned sects that could barely number enough to fill a football stadium, to represent Christianity. I think that's disengenuous. That's like me saying that Neturei Karta represent the true position of Jews on Zionism.

[LittleLambofJesus]

kivi says: Well, maybe you're right, after all, from amoung the 1000s and 1000s of different Christian sects, one of them might seek a union of the physical and the spiritual. How about Jim Jones or the Branch Davidian or the Christian Identity or the Tabernacle of Phineas Priesthood. Somewhere, in Chistianity, you can find anything. Jimmy Swaggart and Aimee Semple McPhearson, Rt Rev Gene Robertson and Pat Robertson. Take your pick.:holy::) Yeah ya'll are discussed a lot on the Eschatology board ;)

http://christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=14
Eschatology

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7263147
Endtime scenario

[kivi]

Just so you don't revive this tired old argument, let's talk numbers.

The bulk of the Christian faith is represented by Roman Catholics. There's a billion or so. Then there's the Orthodox, Eastern and Oriental- around 340 million or so. Then there's the mainstream historic Protestants, around 700 million, and then the Anglicans, around 78 million. They'd represent the bulk of Christianity, easily. They pretty much all agree on this and just about everything else. You've mentioned sects that could barely number enough to fill a football stadium, to represent Christianity. I think that's disengenuous. That's like me saying that Neturei Karta represent the true position of Jews on Zionism.

kivi says: I don't know the condition of of Australia, but in the US, the evangelics are the major force in Protestantism to be dealt with. And at the rate the Anglican communion is falling apart, I don't think we can depend on them as a standard of unity for the rest of the Prostestant camp. Jimmy Swaggart and Aimee Semple McPhearson, Rt Rev Gene Robertson and Pat Robertson all represent significant voices and powers within the Protestant group. I have no problem with the Catholics, as we have discussed before, they no longer evanglize to the Jews, thank G-d, they have seen the correct way. But the mainstream Protestants organizations are the major funders for all the current attempts to convert the Jews, in the US and Israel, including the Anglicans. Shame, shame, shame, get your own house in order before you think that you have a message for anyone else.
And if its a tired arguement to you, CM, its because the Protestants don't have any answer to it, as, again, what is going on in the Anglican Communion is a perfect example of. Splinter, splinter, splinter, schism, schism, schism.

[LittleLambofJesus]

I have no problem with the Catholics, as we have discussed before, they no longer evanglize to the Jews, thank G-d, they have seen the correct way.
Now why do you suppose the Catholics do not try to evanglize Jews? Don't they believe they are the New Israel anyway?

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/replacement_theology.htm

Catholics would say there are elements of truth at both ends of the Protestant continuum. We agree with Millennialists that there will be a huge conversion of Jews in the end times and we agree with Replacement Theology proponents when they say that the new Israel after the resurrection of Christ, is the Church, not modern day Israel. Of course, we have major differences with some of the teachings in both these camps also.

[kivi]

kivi says: Maybe they have finally realized that any conversion efforts always, eventually, lead to immoral, inhuman and ungodly results.

Now why do you suppose the Catholics do not try to evanglize Jews? Don't they believe they are the New Israel anyway?

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/replacement_theology.htm

Catholics would say there are elements of truth at both ends of the Protestant continuum. We agree with Millennialists that there will be a huge conversion of Jews in the end times and we agree with Replacement Theology proponents when they say that the new Israel after the resurrection of Christ, is the Church, not modern day Israel. Of course, we have major differences with some of the teachings in both these camps also.

[Torah613]

You know, I really don't have a problem with chr*Stians missionizing to non-jews. Heck, I'd wish they'd missionize teh heck out of some radical muslims. Would get them off our backs for a while. JK

What I do have a problem with is people missionizing Jews. Particularly when they go for uneducated, non-frum movement Jews. Its disgusting.

Yochanan

[LittleLambofJesus]

You know, I really don't have a problem with chr*Stians missionizing to non-jews. Heck, I'd wish they'd missionize teh heck out of some radical muslims. Would get them off our backs for a while. JK

What I do have a problem with is people missionizing Jews. Particularly when they go for uneducated, non-frum movement Jews. Its disgusting.

YochananShalom. It is not for lack of trying. But that is hard to do when they view the Apostle Paul as a "False/Deceiving" Apostle and they do not read Daniel and Revelation. Sigh :sorry:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7131625
2 Timothy 4:1 translation

2 Timothy 4:1 Thru-witnessing then I, before the GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, of the being-about to be judging living and dead, according as the appearance/manifestation of Him and the Kingdom of Him

Reve 11:18And the nations are angered, and came Thy wrath, and the Time of the dead to be judged, and to give the wages to Thy Bond-servants, the prophets, and to the Saints, and to those fearing Thy name, the small, and the great. And to blight the ones blighting the land

Reve 19:11 And I perceived the heaven having be opened and Lo! A horse, white and the One sitting on it being called Faithful and True and in justice He is judging and is battling.