Who do Orthodox Jews say Jesus is/was? [Archive]

MichaelTheeArchAngel

3rd July 2008, 07:33 PM

Flibbertigibbet

3rd July 2008, 07:40 PM

Is it considered offensive to use a shortened version of "Jewish" to refer to people who practice Judaism? (Again, woeful lack of knowledge. I hope I don't offend anyone by asking questions.)

MichaelTheeArchAngel

3rd July 2008, 07:43 PM

Is it considered offensive to use a shortened version of "Jewish" to refer to people who practice Judaism? (Again, woeful lack of knowledge. I hope I don't offend anyone by asking questions.) It depends on how the word is being used.

MichaelTheeArchAngel

3rd July 2008, 07:46 PM

[COLOR=purple] I wonder how they collect the 200 dollar fine from the dead people who touched the high power line?^_^

ShirChadash

3rd July 2008, 07:52 PM

Hello :)
I see you have had some answers, and I just wanted to point out that you will likely get answers from the actual orthodox and other rabbinic Jews, if they see this thread.

My basic answers: the opinions on Jsus are mixed. Some believe there was no Jsus whatsoever. Others believe he was a man and only a man (never god).

It is not offensive to use the term Jew, unless you add offensive terminology and meanings, if you see what I am saying.

jaihare

3rd July 2008, 08:02 PM

Indeed. Jesus was not important enough on the radar of Jewish history to merit much of an entry. It was only through the formation of a new religion by those who followed him that he at all became important. In Judaism, Jesus amounts to nothing really.

Jason

Qalevra

3rd July 2008, 09:01 PM

Personally, I am unsure that he even existed. If he did exist, there is little historical evidence of who he was or how he was regarded. Jews do not believe the NT to be an "inspired" book, and most regard it as propaganda (for lack of a better) to propagate the Christian belief system. Thus, we don't think we can really glean from that any insights into his nature.

The Orthodox Jews [Hebrews] believe that he is false Messiah and prophet. The other groups of Jews [Hebrews] here have a mixed view. Some believe, and others don't.

I feel that I should clarify on this statement. The percentage of real Jews that believe that Jesus is the awaited messiah is approximately 0.1%. If I recall correctly, I believe that Lulav is the only real Jew here who holds Christian belief.

Flibbertigibbet

3rd July 2008, 09:02 PM

I wonder how they collect the 200 dollar fine from the dead people who touched the high power line?^_^
Exactly!! I have a couple of other photographs of signs that I found funny as well. One is a road sign that says "Caution, frogs may be hot". I don't have a clue what they are talking about, but it cracks me up. :D

Onto more questions: I understand why some would not want to spell out Christ in reference to Jesus, but what's the deal about not using all of the letters of "Jesus"?

Jason - wouldn't the fact that his followers began a new religion have impacted Judaism in such a manner that would have at least required some discussion?

From my perspective, it seems rather odd that there is such little discussion about Judaism in my own church (and on Christian radio programs that I listen to) that I am this ignorant about it, but I certainly hear teachings regarding Islam, Buddhism, and other religions. The church I attend does not speak negatively of the Jewish faith, quite the contrary. However, when I asked the question in my OP of some of my fellow church members they didn't know. Perhaps because I'm in a small town in the South? IDK

It also seems odd to me that there would be enmity from any follower of Jesus toward the Israelites, who are God's chosen people.

MichaelTheeArchAngel

3rd July 2008, 09:09 PM

Exactly!! I have a couple of other photographs of signs that I found funny as well. One is a road sign that says "Caution, frogs may be hot". I don't have a clue what they are talking about, but it cracks me up. :D

Onto more questions: I understand why some would not want to spell out Christ in reference to Jesus, but what's the deal about not using all of the letters of "Jesus"?

Jason - wouldn't the fact that his followers began a new religion have impacted Judaism in such a manner that would have at least required some discussion?

From my perspective, it seems rather odd that there is such little discussion about Judaism in my own church (and on Christian radio programs that I listen to) that I am this ignorant about it, but I certainly hear teachings regarding Islam, Buddhism, and other religions. The church I attend does not speak negatively of the Jewish faith, quite the contrary. However, when I asked the question in my OP of some of my fellow church members they didn't know. Perhaps because I'm in a small town in the South? IDK

It also seems odd to me that there would be enmity from any follower of Jesus toward the Israelites, who are God's chosen people.

I am only guessing, but I think frogs are jumper wires.

Flibbertigibbet

3rd July 2008, 09:21 PM

:doh::doh:I feel that I should clarify on this statement. The percentage of real Jews that believe that Jesus is the awaited messiah is approximately 0.1%. If I recall correctly, I believe that Lulav is the only real Jew here who holds Christian belief.
Please explain to the ignorant (namely, me) what you mean by "real Jew"? As opposed to . . .?

________
btw, folks. It's somewhat embarrasing to have such little info at my age, but I went through the 1st 43 years of my life as an atheist/agnostic so please bear with me. I appreciate those who have taken the time to post.

kivi

3rd July 2008, 09:31 PM

I don't know if this is the correct forum to post this question in, so if I'm in the wrong place I ask the Mods to move this and let me know where it went to. :)

I'm not looking to bash anyone, and hope my own head stays intact. :D I just have a woeful lack of knowledge on the subject, and prefer to hear from people practicing Judaism rather than doing a web search and coming up with who knows what from who knows where.

kivi says: There really is no official Jewish 'opinion' on the person of Jesus Christ. Judaism does not recognize him as the Messiah nor the more elaborate theological dogmas of the Creeds. But that is in his 'job description', not his person. Some Jews see him as a wandering rabbi with some good ideas. Some Jews don't have much of an opinion. Some Jews think he was a heretic. Jews are scattered across a wide range of opinions on the person of Jesus Christ. For myself, I don't think that it is possible to retreive the 'historical' Jesus. So, I threat the New Testament as a work of propaganda for Christianity. Or I treat it as work of fiction and the person of Jesus Christ as a fictional character, like the Great Gatsby. I hope this helps.

Qalevra

3rd July 2008, 09:35 PM

Please explain to the ingnorant (namely, me) what you mean by "real Jew"? As opposed to . . .?

One is considered a Jew if they are born of a Jewish mother or undergo "conversion" to become a Jew. There is a trend lately that Gentile Christians are calling themselves Jews by virtue of their own beliefs or because of some distant family connection. They are not Jews, but claim to be. Personally, I attribute this to the relative security that exists today in having a "Jewish identity", whereas, in the past, widely proliferated anti-Semitism would squash such ideas.

btw, folks. It's somewhat embarrasing to have such little info at my age, but I went through the 1st 43 years of my life as an atheist/agnostic so please bear with me. I appreciate those who have taken the time to post.

You don't have to explain. You are admitting your lack of knowledge and taking the time to ask, which is admirable. Keep the questions coming if you have them! :thumbsup:

MichaelTheeArchAngel

3rd July 2008, 10:59 PM

One is considered a Jew if they are born of a Jewish mother or undergo "conversion" to become a Jew. And where does this ruling come from, is it the word of God, or is it some Rabbi or Priest opinion.

Flibbertigibbet

3rd July 2008, 11:24 PM

One is considered a Jew if they are born of a Jewish mother or undergo "conversion" to become a Jew. There is a trend lately that Gentile Christians are calling themselves Jews by virtue of their own beliefs or because of some distant family connection. They are not Jews, but claim to be. Personally, I attribute this to the relative security that exists today in having a "Jewish identity", whereas, in the past, widely proliferated anti-Semitism would squash such ideas.

You don't have to explain. You are admitting your lack of knowledge and taking the time to ask, which is admirable. Keep the questions coming if you have them! :thumbsup:
Thanks!!

You've raised another question for me - what if someone has a Jewish father and a Gentile mother. Are they not Jewish, and if not why not?

Flibbertigibbet

3rd July 2008, 11:30 PM

MichaelTheeArchAngel

3rd July 2008, 11:47 PM

Qalevra

4th July 2008, 12:05 AM

And where does this ruling come from, is it the word of God, or is it some Rabbi or Priest opinion.

What makes Jesus Jewish?

Aside from the obvious difference of Christians believing that Jesus is the mediator between man and God (and the failure to follow Levitical law regarding eating and observance of days held to be Holy in Judaism), what causes division - do we not believe in the same God?

Sticky question. The best way I can answer it is thus: when you pray, do you think of Jesus and G-d as interchangeable? If you can answer yes to this question, then it reasons that we worship different gods.

Is the Torah the same as the Old Testament?

The first five books of the Tanakh are the Torah. What you call the OT is a very close approximation of the Tanakh, which is comprised of the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings (Psalms, Proverbs, etc.).

You've raised another question for me - what if someone has a Jewish father and a Gentile mother. Are they not Jewish, and if not why not?

Deuteronomy 7:3-4 states the Torah position on this. Notice the language in verse 4, which speaks of how the Gentile man will cause the son to turn away from HaShem. There is no mention of what a Gentile woman will cause a child to do, because that child is already turned away from HaShem. This is the Orthodox and Conservative position.

The Reform and Reconstructionists say that there is paternal AND maternal descent ONLY if the children are raised in a Jewish home (read as: practicing Judaism).

There is debate as to how long these interpretations have existed, but there is a general consensus that these have been common interpretation in Judaism for at least 2,000 years.

In any interpretation (even the more lenient Reform and Recon), the vast majority of messianics who claim to be Jewish based on a distant relative do not fit the well established guidelines of Jewishness, since they are almost universally raised as Christians.

ShirChadash

4th July 2008, 12:08 AM

well-stated, Qalevra.

Flibbertigibbet

4th July 2008, 12:26 AM

Sticky question. The best way I can answer it is thus: when you pray, do you think of Jesus and G-d as interchangeable? If you can answer yes to this question, then it reasons that we worship different gods.

I had to think about this one. I don't know that I would use the word "interchangeable." I believe in the Trinity of Father, Son and Spirit as 3-in-1. But I don't view them as being identical. I tried to think of an example that doesn't sound horribly sacreligious, but failed. So, the best example I can come up with is my multifunction printer. It can be a fax machine only, a scanner only, or a printer only. And it's also all 3 at once. Terrible analogy, but it's late and that's the best I can do for now. I'll re-read this tomorrow and want to thump my own head. :D

I pray to them all, at various times. But for me, there is a differentiation between them. My understanding (and I'm fairly new at this, so I may have Christian theology all wrong) is that Jesus is the mediator between man and God. When I pray to God the father, I do so in the name of Jesus whom I believe to be his son.

MichaelTheeArchAngel

4th July 2008, 12:26 AM

What makes Jesus Jewish?

Sticky question. The best way I can answer it is thus: when you pray, do you think of Jesus and G-d as interchangeable? If you can answer yes to this question, then it reasons that we worship different gods.

The first five books of the Tanakh are the Torah. What you call the OT is a very close approximation of the Tanakh, which is comprised of the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings (Psalms, Proverbs, etc.).

Deuteronomy 7:3-4 states the Torah position on this. Notice the language in verse 4, which speaks of how the Gentile man will cause the son to turn away from HaShem. There is no mention of what a Gentile woman will cause a child to do, because that child is already turned away from HaShem. This is the Orthodox and Conservative position.

The Reform and Reconstructionists say that there is paternal AND maternal descent ONLY if the children are raised in a Jewish home (read as: practicing Judaism).

There is debate as to how long these interpretations have existed, but there is a general consensus that these have been common interpretation in Judaism for at least 2,000 years.

In any interpretation (even the more lenient Reform and Recon), the vast majority of messianics who claim to be Jewish based on a distant relative do not fit the well established guidelines of Jewishness, since they are almost universally raised as Christians.
Deut 7 is about the [Pagans.] True Judaeo Christians are not Pagan.

jaihare

4th July 2008, 12:28 AM

Deut 7 is about the [Pagans.] True Judaeo Christians are not Pagan.
Interesting that both Christians and Jews disagree with you. Christians view you as heretics. Jews view you as confused and mixed up. Neither thinks you have a clue. You may not call yourself a pagan, but neither do Christians in general (though they worship a human being who lived and died on earth).

Jason

MichaelTheeArchAngel

4th July 2008, 12:29 AM

Esther 8:17.
In every province and in every city, wherever the edict of the king went, there was joy and gladness among the Jews, with feasting and celebrating. And many people of other nationalities became Jews because fear of the Jews had seized them.

Flibbertigibbet

4th July 2008, 12:32 AM

Deuteronomy 7:3-4 states the Torah position on this. Notice the language in verse 4, which speaks of how the Gentile man will cause the son to turn away from HaShem. There is no mention of what a Gentile woman will cause a child to do, because that child is already turned away from HaShem. This is the Orthodox and Conservative position.

That's really interesting. I would have thought that there was no mention of what a Gentile woman will cause a child to do because the Jewish father, as head of the family, would ensure that the child did not turn away.

jaihare

4th July 2008, 12:32 AM

Have we come to the point where you cannot produce anything, so you want only to repeat yourself over and over? If that's the case, I'm quickly becoming bored.

Jason

kivi

4th July 2008, 12:33 AM

Thanks!!

You've raised another question for me - what if someone has a Jewish father and a Gentile mother. Are they not Jewish, and if not why not?

kivi says: Jewish law says that membership in the Nation of Israel/B'nai Isearl goes through the mother, it does not go through the father.

Qalevra

4th July 2008, 12:38 AM

That's really interesting. I would have thought that there was no mention of what a Gentile woman will cause a child to do because the Jewish father, as head of the family, would ensure that the child did not turn away.

I cannot speak for them, but I think this line of logic may lie behind the Reform and Recon stance, which is contingent on being raised in a Jewish home.

Qalevra

4th July 2008, 12:41 AM

I had to think about this one. I don't know that I would use the word "interchangeable." I believe in the Trinity of Father, Son and Spirit as 3-in-1. But I don't view them as being identical. I tried to think of an example that doesn't sound horribly sacreligious, but failed. So, the best example I can come up with is my multifunction printer. It can be a fax machine only, a scanner only, or a printer only. And it's also all 3 at once. Terrible analogy, but it's late and that's the best I can do for now. I'll re-read this tomorrow and want to thump my own head. :D

I await another analogy when you're more awake ;), then, but at this point, it seems that that, in essence, a different god is being worshiped.

kivi

4th July 2008, 12:45 AM

Aside from the obvious difference of Christians believing that Jesus is the mediator between man and God (and the failure to follow Levitical law regarding eating and observance of days held to be Holy in Judaism), what causes division - do we not believe in the same God?

Is the Torah the same as the Old Testament?\

kivi says: The Torah is made up of several texts. These texts decrease in kadushah [holiness] the further they are in time for the Original Giving of the Torah at Mt Sinai/Matan Torah Har Sinai. The tests are the Chumash [the 5 Books of Moses]; the rest of the Tanach; the Talmud; the post Talmudic Responsa, up to the present. There are significant and fatal differences between the Tanach and the Old Testament. A Christian text of the Old Testament, because of these fatal flaws can never be used to prove or disprove a Midrash or Halachah in Judaism. Of course, in Judaism, no existing translation of the Chumash/Tanach into any other langauge than Hebrew/Aramaic is authoritive. Only the authoritive text is the original Hebrew/Aramaic.

There are serious discussions, none of them finalize, whether Christianity and Judaism worship the same god. As describd in the Creeds, Jesus, in Christianity, is divine. As such, he can not be worshipped by a Jew based on Torah Law. That is a difficulty.

In Judaism, there is no Judaic-Christian tradition, there is only a Judaic Tradition.

kivi

4th July 2008, 12:50 AM

kivi

4th July 2008, 12:52 AM

And where does this ruling come from, is it the word of God, or is it some Rabbi or Priest opinion.

kivi says: Well, here I am, swimming around, all quiet and peaceful and there, in the mirky distance looks like a greaaaaaat worm, all wiggly and fat. Of course, I know there is a hook in there, its just disguised by that great worm. So, do I take the bait and get into an great arguement and 'set some jerk right'? Or do I remember that the last 20 times I did take the bait and got caught by the hook and ended up feeling like a putz. So, I can pretend that the hook isn't there, even though its been there everytime I have seen that great bait before. Or I can go on my way. What should I do?
__________________

Flibbertigibbet

4th July 2008, 01:02 AM

Thank you Qalevra and kivi for your responses and your patience with me.

Although a Jew, based on Torah Law, cannot worship Jesus, is it possible for those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God to also worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

I guess what I'm asking is even if Christians are horribly misguided regarding belief in the divinity of Jesus and in a triune God, aren't they still also acknowledging and worshipping the Creator?

_______
brief aside - if my use of all the letters in God or Christians is offensive to anyone, please let me know.

Qalevra

4th July 2008, 01:09 AM

Although a Jew, based on Torah Law, cannot worship Jesus, is it possible for those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God to also worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

I would say that if your beliefs took on a polytheist tone, wherein you separated Jesus from G-d, and then worshiped G-d alone, you would be worshiping HaShem. But then, how does He feel about other gods? In particular, what does He think about any god/deity before Him?

I guess what I'm asking is even if Christians are horribly misguided regarding belief in the divinity of Jesus and in a triune God, aren't they still also acknowledging and worshipping the Creator?

You'll get different answers from different Jews on this one. I suppose I would ask if it's possible to address worship to the Creator but misidentify Him or even diminish Him by requiring a mediator?

brief aside - if my use of all the letters in God or Christians is offensive to anyone, please let me know.

No offense here. It's a Jewish observance, and not required of non-Jews ;)

MichaelTheeArchAngel

4th July 2008, 01:15 AM

kivi says: Jewish law says that membership in the Nation of Israel/B'nai Isearl goes through the mother, it does not go through the father. That is indeed the law these days, but it is not God's original plan. It is a man made law contrary to Gods plan for mans salvation. The commandments were given to mankind. God said that the Hebrews and aliens were not to join Paganism to themselves or God. Both the Aliens and Hebrews were to keep the commandments.

Qalevra

4th July 2008, 01:19 AM

Both the Aliens and Hebrews were to keep the commandments.

Not true. Exodus 19:3-6.

jaihare

4th July 2008, 01:26 AM

That is indeed the law these days, but it is not God's original plan. It is a man made law contrary to Gods plan for mans salvation. The commandments were given to mankind. God said that the Hebrews and aliens were not to join Paganism to themselves or God. Both the Aliens and Hebrews were to keep the commandments.
When it comes to issues of justice, there is to be one law for both the Jew and the alien. However, it is NOT true that the alien is to keep the same laws as Israel in all matters.

For example, how many laws are associated with Shabbat? Do you know? I have no idea, but there are a LOT. It specifically stated in the Torah:

ושמרו בני-ישראל את-השבת לעשות את-השבת לדורותם ברית עולם ביני ובין בני ישראל אות היא לעולם כי-ששת ימים עשה יהוה את-השמיים ואת-הארץ וביום השביעי שבת ויינפש
"And the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations as an eternal covenant. Between me and the house of Israel it is a sign forever that in six days HaShem made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed." (Exodus 31:16-17)

The Sabbath, which takes up a large portion of the Torah law, is specifically an eternal covenant and a sign forever between HaShem and the Jewish people. It is a sign and reminder of the creation, and that covenant does not belong to every other nation in the world.

If the Sabbath and all of its laws are particular to Jews, then your argument is inherently flawed. It is obvious that Torah law is not incumbent upon non-Jews in the same way as it is incumbent upon Jews. When the Torah says that we are to have the same law for all, it is talking about matters of fairness and justice, not matters of religious and cultural value.

Jason

MichaelTheeArchAngel

4th July 2008, 01:38 AM

Not true. Exodus 19:3-6. I do not see your point of view.

MichaelTheeArchAngel

4th July 2008, 01:42 AM

When it comes to issues of justice, there is to be one law for both the Jew and the alien. However, it is NOT true that the alien is to keep the same laws as Israel in all matters.

For example, how many laws are associated with Shabbat? Do you know? I have no idea, but there are a LOT. It specifically stated in the Torah:

ושמרו בני-ישראל את-השבת לעשות את-השבת לדורותם ברית עולם ביני ובין בני ישראל אות היא לעולם כי-ששת ימים עשה יהוה את-השמיים ואת-הארץ וביום השביעי שבת ויינפש
"And the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations as an eternal covenant. Between me and the house of Israel it is a sign forever that in six days HaShem made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed." (Exodus 31:16-17)

The Sabbath, which takes up a large portion of the Torah law, is specifically an eternal covenant and a sign forever between HaShem and the Jewish people. It is a sign and reminder of the creation, and that covenant does not belong to every other nation in the world.

If the Sabbath and all of its laws are particular to Jews, then your argument is inherently flawed. It is obvious that Torah law is not incumbent upon non-Jews in the same way as it is incumbent upon Jews. When the Torah says that we are to have the same law for all, it is talking about matters of fairness and justice, not matters of religious and cultural value.

Jason You are forgetting that other peoples came out of Egypt with Moses and the Hebrews; and that they were addressed together by God.

jaihare

4th July 2008, 01:55 AM

I do not see your point of view.
You cannot read Exodus 19, but you want to tell us about Zechariah?!? LOL

Exodus is written clearly and with straightforward language. Zechariah is written in hidden language. How can you claim to understand the one while the clearer one remains a mystery to you??

jaihare

4th July 2008, 01:55 AM

You are forgetting that other peoples came out of Egypt with Moses and the Hebrews; and that they were addressed together by God.
Does that change the fact that it says multiple times "the children of Israel"?

Flibbertigibbet

4th July 2008, 01:57 AM

\

There are significant and fatal differences between the Tanach and the Old Testament. A Christian text of the Old Testament, because of these fatal flaws can never be used to prove or disprove a Midrash or Halachah in Judaism. Of course, in Judaism, no existing translation of the Chumash/Tanach into any other langauge than Hebrew/Aramaic is authoritive. Only the authoritive text is the original Hebrew/Aramaic.

But is there a translation that is accurate, although not authoritive?

It is my understanding that there are Hebrew/Aramaic words that have no exact translation in English. My pastor and I were talking about this Wednesday. I wondered why can't I just ask someone who DOES know Hebrew/Aramaic to tell me what it says? Is that allowed?

MichaelTheeArchAngel

4th July 2008, 02:01 AM

Does that change the fact that it says multiple times "the children of Israel"? Were those people literally Israel's children and he is there father. Or is the word being used to mean, the nation Israel?

jaihare

4th July 2008, 02:03 AM

Were those people literally Israel's children and he is there father. Or is the word being used to mean, the nation Israel?
And that point, it was obviously the direct descendants.

kivi

4th July 2008, 02:31 AM

But is there a translation that is accurate, although not authoritive?

It is my understanding that there are Hebrew/Aramaic words that have no exact translation in English. My pastor and I were talking about this Wednesday. I wondered why can't I just ask someone who DOES know Hebrew/Aramaic to tell me what it says? Is that allowed?

Kivi says: Hi there:). There are several great Torah-faithful translations out there and one that is no longer considered appropriate. To me, the ArtScroll, Stone Editon of the Chumash and the Stone Edition of the Tanach are the best out there [artscroll.com].
The 2nd one I recommend is "The Living Torah" by R' A. Kaplan [http://www.aryehkaplan.com/].
The 3rd, from Judaica Press, you can find on-line at [http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm].

Also on-line is the Jewish Publishing Society 1917 [JPS 1917] effort. While it was the best English translation that Jewish Community in the US had for many years, it was never very good and is now hopelessly out of date. I strongly do not recommend it.

There are several Torah loving Jews in this forum in CF that are good in Hebrew. The two I recommend [though there are others and my recommendation in no way discredits who I do not recommend] are jaihare and qalevra. I do not recommend myself. I know Hebrew but languages have never been my stong point.:confused: When I study in the original, the dictionary is in my hand and I have speed dial direct to my Rabbi. :blush: To be honest, until I have learned a protion in Hebrew or Aramaic in a study class with better chavrah than myself, I don't think I have really done the job right.:clap: That is why I think that leaning in the original language is so important.:idea:

Flibbertigibbet

4th July 2008, 10:20 AM

Kivi says: Hi there:). There are several great Torah-faithful translations out there and one that is no longer considered appropriate. To me, the ArtScroll, Stone Editon of the Chumash and the Stone Edition of the Tanach are the best out there [artscroll.com].
The 2nd one I recommend is "The Living Torah" by R' A. Kaplan [http://www.aryehkaplan.com/].
The 3rd, from Judaica Press, you can find on-line at [http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm].

Also on-line is the Jewish Publishing Society 1917 [JPS 1917] effort. While it was the best English translation that Jewish Community in the US had for many years, it was never very good and is now hopelessly out of date. I strongly do not recommend it.

There are several Torah loving Jews in this forum in CF that are good in Hebrew. The two I recommend [though there are others and my recommendation in no way discredits who I do not recommend] are jaihare and qalevra. I do not recommend myself. I know Hebrew but languages have never been my stong point.:confused: When I study in the original, the dictionary is in my hand and I have speed dial direct to my Rabbi. :blush: To be honest, until I have learned a protion in Hebrew or Aramaic in a study class with better chavrah than myself, I don't think I have really done the job right.:clap: That is why I think that leaning in the original language is so important.:idea:
Thank you, kivi. I'll definitely check those out. :)

I'm with you in that languages have never been my strong point. Prime example: I had 5 years of Spanish, and all I can recall beyond the basics are Guatemalan curse words I learned from exchange students. :D

I would love to learn Hebrew, but with 3 kids in the home, a full-time job and the occasional need for sleep I just don't see it happening.

I am very much enjoying conversing with you and Qalevra. Thanks so much for sharing with me.

I'll be offline throughout most of the day (1st cutting grass in the field my backyard has turned into so as not to lose my toddler, then grilling out), but I'm sure I'll be back later tonight with more questions.

MichaelTheeArchAngel

5th July 2008, 01:21 AM

Does that change the fact that it says multiple times "the children of Israel"? The Torah occasionally refers to the Jewish people using the term "goy." Most notably, in Exodus 19:6, God says that the Children of Israel will be "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation," that is, a goy kadosh. :wave:

jaihare

5th July 2008, 04:10 AM

The Torah occasionally refers to the Jewish people using the term "goy." Most notably, in Exodus 19:6, God says that the Children of Israel will be "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation," that is, a goy kadosh. :wave:
Nu?

It doesn't say "goy" in that passage. It says את כל העמים "with all the peoples". No matter what, Israel has always been considered ONE people עם am, not multiple peoples עמים amim.

Jason

jaihare

5th July 2008, 04:14 AM

Flibbertigibbet

5th July 2008, 08:57 AM

That's a major difference, though, between Christianity and Judaism. In Judaism, we believe that the real words are those of the Hebrew text, and we always use the Hebrew text when discussing what a passage means. Among Christians, there is a total dependency on translators. You have no idea if the translation is correct because you don't even see the original language, nor do you read it. The translation could be completely faithful, but in the end you miss the meaning because of a turn of phrase in the original language or some kind of nuance that doesn't come across in translation.

Dependency on translators is a very sad thing. Among Christians, those who study Greek and Hebrew are a very small minority. However, among Jews, all who are serious spend at least some time getting acquainted with the Hebrew language. There's a huge difference between our peoples.

Jason
Jason, I agree with you that dependency on translators is very sad. I would very much like to study the original languages - I just don't know where I would find the time to do so at this stage in my life. Given that limitation, the next best thing (or "least worst", lol) is to ask for recommendations for a reliable, albeit not authoritive, translation for own reading.

It also seems to me that if were able to personally speak with an Orthodox Jew willing to translate and then discuss the text, that perhaps some of those less understandable turns of phrase and subtle nuances could be better explained to me when I had the ability to ask questions which would reveal my understanding or lack thereof.

To some extent, no matter which way I were to go about it, wouldn't I be relying upon someone else's interpretation - whether of a passage of Scripture or of the meaning of a particular word?

jaihare

5th July 2008, 10:23 AM

You've just hit the nail on the head regarding Rabbi Hillel's argument for the Oral Torah. :)

MichaelTheeArchAngel

5th July 2008, 12:52 PM

Nu?

It doesn't say "goy" in that passage. It says את כל העמים "with all the peoples". No matter what, Israel has always been considered ONE people עם am, not multiple peoples עמים amim.

Jason I rechecked and the word "goy" is there. Are you saying that the word goy is not there in the text you are reading. Are there different versions of that Hebrew text that do not use the word goy there in that place? If not, then that would be interesting.
:confused:

MichaelTheeArchAngel

5th July 2008, 01:56 PM

There seems to be a multitude of serious blunders in the different translations; in regards to nation-s and people-s. I have also noted that the word goy and goyim is often not translated. That's not good!

jaihare

5th July 2008, 06:28 PM

I rechecked and the word "goy" is there. Are you saying that the word goy is not there in the text you are reading. Are there different versions of that Hebrew text that do not use the word goy there in that place? If not, then that would be interesting.
:confused:
Or, it could be that you are not reading the Hebrew text. It says (Zech. 11:10) –

וָאֶקַּח אֶת-מַקְלִי אֶת-נֹעַם וָאֶגְדַּע אֹתוֹ לְהָפֵיר אֶת-בְּרִיתִי אֲשֶׁר כָּרַתִּי אֶת-כָּל-הָעַמִּים
va-ekakh et-makli et-no'am va-egda oto le-hafeir et-briti asher karati et-kol-ha'amim

The word "goy" does not appear in Zech 11:10, as I stated. It says that the covenant in question was "with all the peoples" and not with Israel.

In fact, the word "goy" גוי doesn't appear at all in that chapter. I don't know what you're looking at, but it isn't the Hebrew Bible, and no, there isn't a secondary version of the Hebrew text.

Jason

jaihare

5th July 2008, 06:41 PM

I realize now that you were talking about Exodus 19:6. Sorry for the confusion. The Zech 11 passage and discussion is still stuck in my head, and this has stretched over several days.

Of course, Exodus calls Israel a "holy nation" גוֹי קָדוֹשׁ. I was arguing against the notion that Israel was the one with whom HaShem broke his covenant in Zech 11:10, as you had remarked on the other thread. My mistake.

Jason

P.S. Thanks to ShirChadash for pointing that out. :)

MichaelTheeArchAngel

5th July 2008, 06:54 PM

MichaelTheeArchAngel

5th July 2008, 07:01 PM

jaihare

5th July 2008, 07:02 PM

How does you scripture translate Exodus 19:6.
Verse 5 is the beginning of the statement:

וְעַתָּה אִם-שָׁמוֹעַ תִּשְׁמְעוּ בְּקֹלִי וּשְׁמַרְתֶּם אֶת-בְּרִיתִי--וִהְיִיתֶם לִי סְגֻלָּה מִכָּל-הָעַמִּים כִּי-לִי כָּל-הָאָרֶץ וְאַתֶּם תִּהְיוּ-לִי מַמְלֶכֶת כֹּהֲנִים וְגוֹי קָדוֹשׁ אֵלֶּה הַדְּבָרִים אֲשֶׁר תְּדַבֵּר אֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל

"And now, if you will listen carefully to my voice and keep my covenant, then you will be for me special among all the peoples, for the whole earth is mine. And you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the things which you shall speak unto the children of Israel."

Jason

MichaelTheeArchAngel

5th July 2008, 07:06 PM

Verse 5 is the beginning of the statement:

וְעַתָּה אִם-שָׁמוֹעַ תִּשְׁמְעוּ בְּקֹלִי וּשְׁמַרְתֶּם אֶת-בְּרִיתִי--וִהְיִיתֶם לִי סְגֻלָּה מִכָּל-הָעַמִּים כִּי-לִי כָּל-הָאָרֶץ וְאַתֶּם תִּהְיוּ-לִי מַמְלֶכֶת כֹּהֲנִים וְגוֹי קָדוֹשׁ אֵלֶּה הַדְּבָרִים אֲשֶׁר תְּדַבֵּר אֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל

"And now, if you will listen carefully to my voice and keep my covenant, then you will be for me special among all the peoples, for the whole earth is mine. And you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the things which you shall speak unto the children of Israel."

Jason It seems that the word "Nation" is an INTERPRETATION" for goy, and not a "TRANSLATION" of the original Hebrew.

Flibbertigibbet

5th July 2008, 07:19 PM

jaihare

5th July 2008, 07:20 PM

It seems that the word "Nation" is an INTERPRETATION" for goy, and not a "TRANSLATION" of the original Hebrew.
I gave you my translation, and it is faithful. However, there is always a level of interpretation involved in translating. The word literally means "nation", so I don't see how it's a translation at all.

You will note that in modern Hebrew we have other words for "nation" since גוי has come to specifically mean "non-Jew" (אינו-יהודי). We have the words לאום and ארץ and מדינה that are used for the concept of "nation" and "country".

Jason

MichaelTheeArchAngel

5th July 2008, 07:21 PM

As a matter of fact there are many placeses were the words goy and goyim are given as: Nation-s. Well what do you think of that?

MichaelTheeArchAngel

5th July 2008, 07:26 PM

I gave you my translation, and it is faithful. However, there is always a level of interpretation involved in translating. The word literally means "nation", so I don't see how it's a translation at all.

You will note that in modern Hebrew we have other words for "nation" since גוי has come to specifically mean "non-Jew" (אינו-יהודי). We have the words לאום and ארץ and מדינה that are used for the concept of "nation" and "country".

Jason My NIV Exhaustive Concordance is based upon the original Hebrew. My bibles all say nation, but the original Hebrew says goy.

jaihare

5th July 2008, 07:26 PM

Can anyone convert to Judaism? Are there certain rules/regulations required to be allowed to convert?

What is the teaching regarding the fate of those who are not Jewish?

Does the Mosaic Law have to be kept completely to be considered righteous and blameless? Does anyone actually manage to do so?

(random questions that I have thought of over the past 2 days :))
Yes, people can convert to Judaism, though this is not necessary and is often discouraged. I'll tell you why if you're interested.

To convert, you must enroll in a study course under the guidance of an authorized rabbi. When you have completed it, you must take a comprehensive exam to find what you have retained. You appear for a religious court with certification that you have been circumcised and immersed in a mikveh. After oaths to uphold the Torah and to swear off all other religions, you are permitted to join the Jewish people.

Those who are not Jewish have the ability to be righteous by maintaining the commandments given to Noah, as enumerated in the Oral Torah. It's much easier than taking Torah upon yourself, and it's preferable, since the non-Jew will still end up in the same place (though with different levels of blessing) by keeping the seven commandments.

It is demonstrated to us in the life of David that one does not have to be perfect to be proclaimed a man who upheld and fulfilled Torah all of his life. David killed a man but was still proclaimed righteous and it was said of him that he did the will of God all the days of his life. Torah was given both as a means of warding off sin and also as a means of taking care of sin if it appears.

Jason

jaihare

5th July 2008, 07:29 PM

My NIV Exhaustive Concordance is based upon the original Hebrew. My bibles all say nation, but the original Hebrew says goy.
Of course it does, since goy is a Hebrew word. All of your English concordances will say "love" when the Hebrew says אהב as well. Should we translate it in NON-English to satisfy your weird sense of interpretation vs. translation?

"And you shall ahav haShem your God with all your levav and with all your nefesh and with all your me'od." What kind of English is that? Similarly, it's absurd to translate "holy nation" as "goy kadosh", since that's simply not English!!

Besides, if we said "goy" in every place where the Hebrew says "goy" it would become non-sensical, since in modern usage (through the influence of Yiddish) "goy" means "non-Jew". To say that Israel will be a "holy non-Jew" makes no sense at all.

Jason

jaihare

5th July 2008, 07:30 PM

As a matter of fact there are many placeses were the words goy and goyim are given as: Nation-s. Well what do you think of that?
Uh... Sherlock, that's kinda what the word means....

MichaelTheeArchAngel

5th July 2008, 07:38 PM

Uh... Sherlock, that's kinda what the word means.... The words goy and goyim means people and peoples. Not Nation and Nations. That would be an INTERPRETATION, not a TRANSLATION, according to the original Hebrew.

jaihare

5th July 2008, 07:41 PM

The words goy and goyim means people and peoples. Not Nation and Nations. That would be an INTERPRETATION, not a TRANSLATION, according to the original Hebrew.
Please, do not even PRESUME to tell me what the Hebrew language means!

The word גוי means "NATION" -- PERIOD -- whether you like it or not.

The word "people" (as in, a people group) is not גוי - it is עם.

You will get nowhere with unfounded claims regarding the Hebrew Bible. You do not know the language, and you have NO BASIS on which to make these claims.

Jason

MichaelTheeArchAngel

5th July 2008, 07:54 PM

Please, do not even PRESUME to tell me what the Hebrew language means!

The word גוי means "NATION" -- PERIOD -- whether you like it or not.

The word "people" (as in, a people group) is not גוי - it is עם.

You will get nowhere with unfounded claims regarding the Hebrew Bible. You do not know the language, and you have NO BASIS on which to make these claims.

Jason You do not understand. You are reading an INTERPRETATION. The word Goy means people in the original Hebrew. The transliteral is "people."

jaihare

5th July 2008, 07:57 PM

You do not understand. You are reading an INTERPRETATION. The word Goy means people in the original Hebrew. The transliteral is "people."
Since you do not know Hebrew, you will do me the favor of refraining from sticking your foot in your mouth any further. Here's my advice: look it up in Brown-Driver-Briggs' lexicon. Then, please tell us again what it means.

Jason

ShirChadash

5th July 2008, 08:02 PM

Since you do not know Hebrew, you will do me the favor of refraining from sticking your foot in your mouth any further. Here's my advice: look it up in Brown-Driver-Briggs' lexicon. Then, please tell us again what it means.

Jason
^_^ this is just so ridiculous, no J?

*hands on hips* "the word גוי in the ORIGINAL HEBREW means people (huff huff), it doesn't matter that the word גוי actually means NATION!" *foot stomp foot stomp* :doh:

I have to wonder where someone gets such notions.

jaihare

5th July 2008, 08:07 PM

I fail to see the point of the argument at all. He simply doens't know Hebrew, so I don't know why he could care what the Hebrew word means. Whether it means "people" or "nation", it is a collective noun referring to a bunch of people joined together by common bonds. "Nation" is political; "people" is cultural. In the case, he's simply wrong in his identification -- but since he doesn't know Hebrew, he has no way of even knowing that he's wrong. It's kinda a headache, and I get really frustrated when people insist on things that they simply have no ability to know.

Jason

MichaelTheeArchAngel

5th July 2008, 08:12 PM

Since you do not know Hebrew, you will do me the favor of refraining from sticking your foot in your mouth any further. Here's my advice: look it up in Brown-Driver-Briggs' lexicon. Then, please tell us again what it means.

Jason
Babylon English-Hebrew

goy
(ש"ע) גוי (לא יהודי)

Wikipedia English - The Free Encyclopedia

Goy
Goy (Hebrew: גוי, regular plural goyim גויים in Western languages) is a transliterated Hebrew word which translates as "nation" or "people". Historically and up to modern times it is a synonym for Gentile or non-Jew. Depending on the context, its use can be controversial or completely innocuous.
The transLITERAL was "People", originally.

jaihare

5th July 2008, 08:26 PM

Babylon English-Hebrew

goy
(ש"ע) גוי (לא יהודי)

Wikipedia English - The Free Encyclopedia

Goy
Goy (Hebrew: גוי, regular plural goyim גויים in Western languages) is a transliterated Hebrew word which translates as "nation" or "people". Historically and up to modern times it is a synonym for Gentile or non-Jew. Depending on the context, its use can be controversial or completely innocuous.
The transLITERAL was "People", originally.
What is "transliteral"? Doesn't appear in my spellchecker or in dictionary.com. I've never heard the word used as a noun (it looks like an adjectival form), and I've read a lot on translation and am up on the standard jargon.

I guess I was just wrong to ask you to look in BDB, since Wikipedia is obviously the authority on the meaning of the Hebrew lexical stock.

How about you do this.... look up the word "nation" in your NIV Exhaustive Concordance and see how many times it comes from the word גוי. Also, look up the word "people" and see how many times it comes from the word גוי, then see how many times it translates the word עם. Perhaps that's the only way to reveal these things to you.

Jason

Personally... I just use the Even Shoshan concordance, which is completely in Hebrew with no English at all.

MichaelTheeArchAngel

5th July 2008, 09:27 PM

What is "transliteral"? Doesn't appear in my spellchecker or in dictionary.com. I've never heard the word used as a noun (it looks like an adjectival form), and I've read a lot on translation and am up on the standard jargon.

I guess I was just wrong to ask you to look in BDB, since Wikipedia is obviously the authority on the meaning of the Hebrew lexical stock.

How about you do this.... look up the word "nation" in your NIV Exhaustive Concordance and see how many times it comes from the word גוי. Also, look up the word "people" and see how many times it comes from the word גוי, then see how many times it translates the word עם. Perhaps that's the only way to reveal these things to you.

Jason

Personally... I just use the Even Shoshan concordance, which is completely in Hebrew with no English at all. It seems that the word transliteral is only used by scholars. Here is the alternate. Transliteration
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Cite This Source

Transliteration is the practice of transcribing a word or text written in one writing system into another writing system or system of rules for such practice.
From a linguistic point of view, transliteration is a mapping from one system of writing into another, word by word. Transliteration attempts to be exact, so that an informed reader should be able to reconstruct the original spelling of unknown transliterated words. To achieve this objective transliteration may define complex conventions for dealing with letters in a source script which do not correspond with letters in a goal script.

Flibbertigibbet

5th July 2008, 10:50 PM

Yes, people can convert to Judaism, though this is not necessary and is often discouraged. I'll tell you why if you're interested.

To convert, you must enroll in a study course under the guidance of an authorized rabbi. When you have completed it, you must take a comprehensive exam to find what you have retained. You appear for a religious court with certification that you have been circumcised and immersed in a mikveh. After oaths to uphold the Torah and to swear off all other religions, you are permitted to join the Jewish people.

Those who are not Jewish have the ability to be righteous by maintaining the commandments given to Noah, as enumerated in the Oral Torah. It's much easier than taking Torah upon yourself, and it's preferable, since the non-Jew will still end up in the same place (though with different levels of blessing) by keeping the seven commandments.

It is demonstrated to us in the life of David that one does not have to be perfect to be proclaimed a man who upheld and fulfilled Torah all of his life. David killed a man but was still proclaimed righteous and it was said of him that he did the will of God all the days of his life. Torah was given both as a means of warding off sin and also as a means of taking care of sin if it appears.

Jason
Certification of circumcision - is it only non-Jewish males who can convert to Judaism?

What were the commandments given to Noah, as enumerated in the Oral Torah? And are these faithfully translated in the Bible (KJV, NIV, or AMP)?

kivi

6th July 2008, 01:40 AM

Can anyone convert to Judaism?
It is a hard road. Judaism actively discourages conversion to Judaism. Judaism is a universalistic religion: "All of B'nai Isael [the People of Israel] and the righteous of the Nations[gentiles] have a portion in Olam Habah [the World to Come]." So, there is no need to be Jewish 'to go to Heaven'. Conversion usually requires a minimum of 3 years and demands a total reordering of ones' life. You must be in a organized Jewish Community and under the guidance of an Orthdox Rabbi to have any chance of success. Expect a lot of resistance from him in the begining.

Are there certain rules/regulations required to be allowed to convert?
kivi says: Very much so. See the above answer.

What is the teaching regarding the fate of those who are not Jewish?
kivi says: See the 1st answer.

Does the Mosaic Law have to be kept completely to be considered righteous and blameless? Does anyone actually manage to do so?
kivi says: The type of terminology you are using is exclusively Christian. We would never phrase it the way you just did. To us, the learning and practice of Torah is an infinite spritual ladder that provides spiritual growth and development for each Jew. There is no end to the potential of that growth, so absolute ideals of righteous and blamelessness just are not in our vocabulary.

(random questions that I have thought of over the past 2 days :))
kivi says: Just keep asking.:)

kivi

6th July 2008, 01:52 AM

Certification of circumcision - is it only non-Jewish males who can convert to Judaism?[/qote]
kivi says: Only males have to be circumcised. So act of conversion is the renounciation of alligance to any other G-d but G-d and the appropriate 'dip' inthe mikvah.

[quote]What were the commandments given to Noah, as enumerated in the Oral Torah? And are these faithfully translated in the Bible (KJV, NIV, or AMP)?

kivi says: The Seven main categories are as follows:

Prohibition of idol-worship.
Prohibition of blasphemy.
Prohibition of theft.
Prohibition of murder.
Prohibition of sexual misconduct.
Prohibition of eating meat cut from living animal.
Prohibition of failing to set up courts of law.

For more information, see: http://www.beni-noah.com/

jaihare

6th July 2008, 05:39 AM

Certification of circumcision - is it only non-Jewish males who can convert to Judaism?

What were the commandments given to Noah, as enumerated in the Oral Torah? And are these faithfully translated in the Bible (KJV, NIV, or AMP)?
As Kivi stated, the condition of circumcision only applies to males. Of course women can and do convert to Judaism without conversion. I figured that was self-explanatory. (Honestly, I've never heard anyone ask that question before.)

The Oral Law is not translated in the NIV, KJV, etc. ;) Oral Law is in the Mishnah and the several law codes of the people of Israel.

Jason

Flibbertigibbet

6th July 2008, 07:51 AM

I figured that was self-explanatory. (Honestly, I've never heard anyone ask that question before.)

What can I say? I want precision. :D

After 12 years in the law biz and 24 years as a mom, I've learned to clarify every statement to remove the hidden loopholes.

I assumed that women could convert, but I don't like to operate on assumptions when I can ask someone who has certain knowledge. I think I am further making Rabbi Hillel's point, no?

ShirChadash

6th July 2008, 09:37 AM

It seems that the word trasliteral is only used by scolars. Here is the alternate. Transliteration
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Cite This Source

Transliteration is the practice of transcribing a word or text written in one writing system into another writing system or system of rules for such practice.
From a linguistic point of view, transliteration is a mapping from one system of writing into another, word by word. Transliteration attempts to be exact, so that an informed reader should be able to reconstruct the original spelling of unknown transliterated words. To achieve this objective transliteration may define complex conventions for dealing with letters in a source script which do not correspond with letters in a goal script.
LOL. I'm glad I took you off ignore, so I could catch this gem myself. Do you want to know what transliteration is?

Here is Hebrew: שלום
Here is the transliteration: Shalom
Here are translations: Hello, goodbye, peace

Transliteration is the writing out of actual Hebrew (in this case) words into English so you can sound them out.

So, 1) if you think that writing the sounds of the word גוי in English lettering, so you can read it in English as an English word -- goy -- makes it mean "people" as compared to "nation" (which whether you like it, it does mean), well :doh:.

And 2) the word "transliteral", as you are attempting to use it, simply does not exist. It is nothing more than a descriptor-term for the other language's word-sounds that have been "transliterated" in order to be rendered into, and pronounceable using, the English alphabet. They're simply phonetic sounds written into English to give us an English word, so we can pronounce the Hebrew.

lastly, 3) your choice of "people" is as much a translation of the word גוי as is "nation". But regardless which translation you go with, for the word גוי, the fact remains, as I believe Jason pointed out to you previously, that the PEOPLE/NATION of Israel has always been, and been referred to as, A PEOPLE, A NATION, and not "peoples" or "nations" of Israel.

Need more examples of transliteration?

See below, from this site (you will find them all over the net, but here's one example)
http://jewishappleseed.org/apple/purim-prayers.htm
the Hebrew, the transliteration and the translation for the blessing over bread:

http://jewishappleseed.org/apple/spacer.gif
http://jewishappleseed.org/apple/images/bread.gif

Hebrew ^

Baruch Atah Adonai, Elohaynu melech ha'olam ha-motzi lechem min ha-aretz.

Transliteration ^

Praised are You, Adonai our God, Sovereign of the Universe, Who brings forth bread from the earth.

Translation ^

If you speak the prayers and do not know Hebrew for yourself, then wherever you are reading the prayers from in order to say them, or wherever you read them before in order to memorize them -- if you are not fluent in Hebrew, you read a transliteration so you can pronounce the words.

LittleLambofJesus

6th July 2008, 09:51 AM

Here is Hebrew: שלום
Here is the transliteration: Shalom
Here are translations: Hello, goodbye, peace
Hi there. I found this interesting concerning the greek word used for the "jerusalem" in the NC.
Does the Hebrew word "Shalem" also mean peace as used in Gene 14 concerning that mysterious "melchizedek"? Just curious. Thansk.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Hierousalem (Strong's 2419) occurs 83 times in 80 verses:
ierou-salhm <2419> #2411 #4532 ["Priest of Peace"?]

Genesis 14:18 And Malkiy-Tsedeq king of Shalem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of El-'Elyown

Hebrews 7:1 For this the Melchisedek, King of Salem/salhm <4532>, Priest/iereuV <2409> of the God of the Most High/uyistou <5310>, the together-joining Abraham turning-back from the smiting of the kings, and did bless him

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP24.htm
MELCHIZEDEK

ShirChadash

6th July 2008, 11:34 AM

As Kivi stated, the condition of circumcision only applies to males. Of course women can and do convert to Judaism without conversion.
sure he means circumcision there -- Israel time = sleepy J. :)

ShirChadash

6th July 2008, 11:44 AM

Hi there. I found this interesting concerning the greek word used for the "jerusalem" in the NC.
Does the Hebrew word "Shalem" also mean peace as used in Gene 14 concerning that mysterious "melchizedek"? Just curious. Thansk.
Heya
my understanding is that "shalem" does indeed refer to Jerusalem. From my past as a Chr*tian, I am familiar with the concept of "shalem" meaning peace, so that malki (king) tzedek (righteousness) from shalem translates roughly to mean the righteous king of peace. I do not know to what degree, if any, Jewish teaching is in agreement with that notion, however. Perhaps one of the orthodox Jews will chime in and answer your question and provide explanation from the Orthodox position.

LittleLambofJesus

6th July 2008, 11:54 AM

Heya
my understanding is that "shalem" does indeed refer to Jerusalem. From my past as a Chr*tian, I am familiar with the concept of "shalem" meaning peace, so that malki (king) tzedek (righteousness) from shalem translates roughly to mean the righteous king of peace. I do not know to what degree, if any, Jewish teaching is in agreement with that notion, however. Perhaps one of the orthodox Jews will chime in and answer your question and provide explanation from the Orthodox position.Thanks. In some ways I wish more bible versions would use hebrew words for names of places and people as they appear to generally symbolize the "nature" of those in my humble view.

Notice "El" is used in Gene 14:18 so in some ways that word for "God" in Hebrew 7:1 would symbolize 'El also.
The GNT is just too "goyized/gentilized" for lack of a better word.

That 8 part series that one commentator had on Melchizedek is one of the most extensive I have seen on a figure that is only used about a half dozen times in the Whole Bible.
I just love harmonizing I suppose and not trying to Convert anyone from another religion. Thoughts?

Genesis 14:18 And Malkiy-Tsedeq king of Shalem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of El-'Elyown

Hebrews 7:1 For this the Melchisedek, King of Salem/salhm <4532>, Priest/iereuV <2409> of the God of the Most High/uyistou <5310>, the together-joining Abraham turning-back from the smiting of the kings, and did bless him

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP24.htm

One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated, "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about. The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION,...........................

ShirChadash

6th July 2008, 12:01 PM

Thanks. In some ways I wish more bible versions would use hebrew words for names of places and people as they appear to generally symbolize the "nature" of those in my humble view. I can agree.

Notice "El" is used in Gene 14:18 so in some ways that word for "God" in Hebrew 7:1 would symbolize 'El also.
The GNT is just too "goyized/gentilized" for lack of a better word. That 8 part series that one commentator had on Melchizedek is one of the most extensive I have seen on a figure that is only used about a half dozen times in the Whole Bible.
I just love harmonizing I suppose and not trying to Convert anyone from another religion. Thoughts? I think that's one reason I appreciate your posts LLoj.

Genesis 14:18 And Malkiy-Tsedeq king of Shalem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of El-'Elyown

Hebrews 7:1 For this the Melchisedek, King of Salem/salhm <4532>, Priest/iereuV <2409> of the God of the Most High/uyistou <5310>, the together-joining Abraham turning-back from the smiting of the kings, and did bless him

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP24.htm

One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated, "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about. The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION,...........................

LittleLambofJesus

6th July 2008, 12:19 PM

I can agree.

I think that's one reason I appreciate your posts LLoj.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP24.htm

One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated,Since I don't like to hide anything and want to be honest, here is how this one site viewed Preston Eby. but I generally like to give a caveat about any commentator on the Bible, "let the Reader discern if what is being written by someone is according to the Scriptures, not according to preconceived views".

I hope this may elighten some or it will do just the opposite. Anyways you can either agree or disgree with that commentator, as even I disagree with some of his views, but sometimes one can find little nuggets of gold in some places. Thoughts?

http://www.aquatechnology.net/ebyheresies.html

The anti-semitic MSOG movement that Eby claims to govern his ministry incorrectly and boldly appropriates the title "elect" from that of the remnant of Israel described during the Tribulation's Time of Jacob's Trouble, and applies it to themselves in true Replacement Theology fashion.

Eby's writing ministry includes a monthly message titled KINGDOM BIBLE STUDIES (http://www.kingdomlife.com/eby/) as well as a number of booklets on various subjects. We discuss this subject below.
Eby attempts to carry the OT priesthood in Israel to the current day church. This is classical Replacement Theology (http://christianforums.com/RESURGENCE.html) and incorrectly appropriates the program that God set up for Israel prior to the time of the Cross when Jesus Christ became our priest and mediator between man and God.

Flibbertigibbet

6th July 2008, 12:26 PM

sure he means circumcision there -- Israel time = sleepy J. :)
And such is the nature of the human mind, which so often reads into text what it wants to see, that I earlier read J's post as saying "circumcision," until you kindly pointed out the error. :D

ShirChadash

6th July 2008, 12:35 PM

And such is the nature of the human mind, which so often reads into text what it wants to see, that I earlier read J's post as saying "circumcision," until you kindly pointed out the error. :D
heh heh I shouldn't have spoken up LOL -- you got his message anyway. LOL :clap:

kivi

7th July 2008, 12:43 AM

sure he means circumcision there -- Israel time = sleepy J. :)

:confused: thanks for correcting me: yes, I meant circumcision. After you've seen one 'c', all 'c's look alike.^_^

kivi

7th July 2008, 12:48 AM

I meant to do that - that's exactly how I wanted that to look.

You got to love that line, how perfect for imperfect humans trying to look good.

jaihare

7th July 2008, 05:50 AM

Kivi,

I love when others claim my mistakes as their own. :)

Jason

Flibbertigibbet

8th July 2008, 01:17 AM

To what extent does Jewish history address the Apostles and the new religion they were proclaiming?

kivi

8th July 2008, 01:40 AM

To what extent does Jewish history address the Apostles and the new religion they were proclaiming?

kivi says: Judaism has no official pronouncements on Christainity except:
1/ It is a foreign religion and forbidden to Jews.
2/ It is not so idolatrous that Jews can not have commerical, business or political interactions with Christians.
3/ That Christainity problably falls within the most generous definition of a monotheistic religion and meets the requirements of the Torah of Noach so that individal Christians fall within the following promise from G-d: "All of B'nai Israel and the Righteous of the Nations have a protion in Olam Habah [the World to Come].

Beyound that, Judaism, as such, has no opinion on 'outside issues'.

Flibbertigibbet

8th July 2008, 01:49 AM

kivi says: Judaism has no official pronouncements on Christainity except:
1/ It is a foreign religion and forbidden to Jews.
2/ It is not so idolatrous that Jews can not have commerical, business or political interactions with Christians.
3/ That Christainity problably falls within the most generous definition of a monotheistic religion and meets the requirements of the Torah of Noach so that individal Christians fall within the following promise from G-d: "All of B'nai Israel and the Righteous of the Nations have a protion in Olam Habah [the World to Come].

Beyound that, Judaism, as such, has no opinion on 'outside issues'.
Thanks, Kivi. I am also wondering if any of historical documents of Israel make mention of the Apostles and their activities?

jaihare

8th July 2008, 02:50 AM

Flibbertigibbet

8th July 2008, 07:22 AM

No, the "apostles" and their activities are not mentioned in any Jewish literature at all, except insofar as James the Just was an "apostle", since he was mentioned in the writings of Josephus.

Jason
Thanks, Jason. That's interesting - at what point, historically speaking, does Christianity "show up?"

jaihare

8th July 2008, 02:48 PM

Thanks, Jason. That's interesting - at what point, historically speaking, does Christianity "show up?"

Christianity in its earliest form appeared toward the end of the Second Temple period. The pressures between Rome (the oppressor) and the Jews was building, and zealots were becoming a common factor in Rome's attempt to maintain control abroad while losing control at home. These zealots wanted to free Israel from Roman hands and to restore the kingdom of Israel with Messiah at its head. Who would be Messiah? No one knew, but messianic fervor and the desire for the Next Age (עולם הבא) permeated most everything that happened at that point in Jewish history. There were many messianic groups that popped up, either proclaiming someone to be the Messiah or encouraging revolt against the authorities and ritual purity with the view to bring in the Age.

In fact, when Jesus' disciples asked him about "the end of the age" (Matthew 24:3), they were referring to this. It was also to "the end of the age" (and the beginning of the next age) that Jesus was referring when he told his disciples that he would be with them until the end (Matthew 28:20). Most were expecting the end of the present age and the beginning of Olam ha-Ba, the Next Age.

Amidst this messianic fervor, Christianity emerged as one group among many. It originally was much simpler, but it became more nuanced under Pauline encouragement. He established churches outside of Israel, and the Jewish nature of Christianity was supplanted by Greek thought. This is also why it survived the onslaught of the Romans around the year 70 while the many other groups disappeared. Christianity became rooted in the Diaspora and lost what it had left of Judaism along the way.

Jason

Flibbertigibbet

8th July 2008, 03:05 PM

How does the English translation of Isaiah 53 differ? How is that passage interpreted by Orthodox Jews? What does it say/mean to you?

jaihare

8th July 2008, 03:09 PM

Flibbertigibbet

8th July 2008, 03:42 PM

I'm not interested in going into the text of Isaiah 53 right now. I don't have the patience to deal with it. Perhaps someone else would be interested in going into that with you. I find it to be a waste of time, since Christians believe it to be Jesus no matter what Isaiah says.

Jason

me http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/grdynangl/Smileys/shark.gif J.

:D

I can appreciate your feeling on that Jason. That was one of my general questions to anyone who might feel like answering, I wasn't trying to single you out on that one. That said, I do very much appreciate your input on my other questions.

For all - I'm not interested in arguing about why I think it's about Jesus - I'm curious about how it IS interpreted by Orthodox Jews, not in why you don't view it the same way Christians do. I don't have a hidden agenda. My goal is to become less ignorant of your religion, and mine, not to debate who's right or wrong.

jaihare

8th July 2008, 04:21 PM

I think Isaiah 53 is large enough to merit its own thread (again). I'd be glad to jump in on it, but it's such a large discussion, and it really comes down to subtlety that is often overlooked. Let me summarize by saying that the prophets show many times that Israel (as a singular) was beaten from head to toe, mistreated, punished beyond what was due, and left for dead. The remnant are those righteous among Israel who were punished along with the others even though they had committed no sin. The prophets speak of Israel as speaking no deceit and being led as a sheep to the shearers. Israel is also to be a "kingdom of priests", as the Torah says, who prays for the sins of the nations. In these and in many other points, Israel is the servant spoken of in Isaiah 53. Add to that the fact that Isaiah 52 and 54 both speak of the return and glorification of Israel, and you have a very clear case, though the specifics come down to more than this -- and need a full thread for careful discussion.

Jason

kivi

8th July 2008, 04:34 PM

Thanks, Kivi. I am also wondering if any of historical documents of Israel make mention of the Apostles and their activities?
kivi says: There are a few references [not much] in the Talmud on early Christianity, but none of the Apostles by name with the possible exception of Paul. There is a lot in the post Talmudic Responsa about how to live with Christians and Christianity without getting killed or tortured or expelled or forcibly converted.

Flibbertigibbet

8th July 2008, 04:58 PM

I think Isaiah 53 is large enough to merit its own thread (again). . . -- and need a full thread for careful discussion.

Thank you, Jason, I appreciate the synopsis. :) Has there already been a thread that you feel gives thorough discussion? I'll search and find it, if so.

Flibbertigibbet

8th July 2008, 05:00 PM

kivi says: There are a few references [not much] in the Talmud on early Christianity, but none of the Apostles by name with the possible exception of Paul. There is a lot in the post Talmudic Responsa about how to live with Christians and Christianity without getting killed or tortured or expelled or forcibly converted.
Yikes, Kivi!! http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd5/lilmissmontana/smiley%20signs/thsmiley_signspanishinquisition.gif?t=1211314554

jaihare

9th July 2008, 01:00 AM

No, not on this forum, which is new. However, it's been handled over and over on other fora. Remember that "Messianic Way" is a new forum on this site. If you want, feel free to start a new thread.

Jason

LittleLambofJesus

9th July 2008, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by jaihare http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47765337#post47765337)
I think Isaiah 53 is large enough to merit its own thread (again). . . -- and need a full thread for careful discussion.
Greetings. There was a large discussion and thread on it on the NCR board started by a Jew but the link might be outdated: :wave:

http://foru.ms/t5858522-isaiah-53-a-contextual-discussion.html&page=11&highlight=isaiah
isaiah-53-a-contextual-discussion

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Y@sha`yah 53:7 He is hard pressed. And he one being humbled, and not he is opening his mouth.
As flockling to slaughter he is being fetched. And as ewe to faces of ones shearing of her she is mute. And not he is opening his mouth. [Acts 8:32]

Acts 8:32 The yet contexts of the Writing which He read was this: `As a-sheep/flockling/probaton<4263> onto slaughter/sfaghn <4967> he was led; and as a-Lamb before of the one shearing Him, soundless, thus not opening the mouth of Him'; [Isaiah 53:7]