Looking for help with end times discussion

[Jim47]

I have recently aquired a very good friend from this forum (That is CF, not TCL) who has become rather disinchanted with how many of CFs members treat our Lord's Word with contempt. She didn't even make a mention of how she was ill treated, so I was very impressed,

however, she believes in pre-tribulation. Believe me she is no dummy when it comes to scripture, in fact she can recall scripture much better then me (due to my failing memory :priest::))

so I thought I would ask for your help with all the scriptural help I can get to disprove her belief.


My current defence lies in these scriptures

Mt 24:26 "So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.


1Th 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
1Th 4:15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The text I highlighted in blue brings pure tears of joy to my old heart :cry:


In addition to this, my other argument is that in no place in the bible does it say that Jesus will appear a 3rd or 4th time, instead scripture clearly teaches His next coming will be to bring judgement upon the earth, and to take His children to be with Him.

Any and all help is greatly appreciated.

Also, I seem to remember that Filo had written an excellant acrticle on end times, but I have no idea how to find it.

[filosofer]

Another passage:

Hebrews 9:28 (ESV) so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

[LutheranMafia]

How do these verses contradict pretrib belief in the rapture? (I think I'm not understanding the question!)

[Jim47]

Thanks Filo

I think I just read that this morning, but never gave it thought of proof of only 1 more return :thumbsup:

[Jim47]

How do these verses contradict pretrib belief in the rapture? (I think I'm not understanding the question!)


They are scriptural proof that pre-trib is a false belief.

The rapture is a true belief, but it doesn't occur the way that is popularly taught. The true rapture is simply when Jesus returns to judge the world, He will judge us believers with the righteousness that is credited Him,, and He will then take us to be with Him. The rapture is when we are caught up in the clouds with all those who have fallen asleep before, and joined together with all the living saints and join our Lord in the clouds, where we will all assend into heaven.

[Tofferer]

Don't forget 1 Corinthians 15:51-52:
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.


Most pretrib rapture proponents hold to the rapture occuring after the first trumpet or they try to explain this verse away as being a call to retreat. However, a careful look at Revelation reveals that the last trumpet is at the END of the tribulation period. The last trumpet can't be both.

[Edial]

I have recently aquired a very good friend from this forum (That is CF, not TCL) who has become rather disinchanted with how many of CFs members treat our Lord's Word with contempt. She didn't even make a mention of how she was ill treated, so I was very impressed,

however, she believes in pre-tribulation. Believe me she is no dummy when it comes to scripture, in fact she can recall scripture much better then me (due to my failing memory :priest::))

so I thought I would ask for your help with all the scriptural help I can get to disprove her belief.


My current defence lies in these scriptures

Mt 24:26 "So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.


1Th 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
1Th 4:15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The text I highlighted in blue brings pure tears of joy to my old heart :cry:


In addition to this, my other argument is that in no place in the bible does it say that Jesus will appear a 3rd or 4th time, instead scripture clearly teaches His next coming will be to bring judgement upon the earth, and to take His children to be with Him.

Any and all help is greatly appreciated.

Also, I seem to remember that Filo had written an excellant acrticle on end times, but I have no idea how to find it.
Hi Jim.

I had several indepth debates with pre-trib rapture followers.

The conclusion was they have NOT ONE verse proving their view.

As you probably know, pre-trib rapture is a relatively new theory. 100 year old?

If you would be kind enough to ask her for verses that she relies on, I would be more than happy to address them.

It really is not that complicated once one gets to the source of it. Pre-trib followers base their foundation on OT (which is rather coudy on this topic) and then follow it with NT.
They do it the other way around, since NT explains the OT. :)

And in support that pre-trib is not Scriptural I would present this text.

REV 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
REV 7:10 "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying,
REV 7:12 "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen." 13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and from where have they come?" 14 And I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne shall spread His tabernacle over them. 16 "They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; neither shall the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne shall be their shepherd, and shall guide them to springs of the water of life; and God shall wipe every tear from their eyes."
(NASB)

V. 9 describes the church - dressed in white, palm branches, from every nation and tribe - this is clear.

And v.14 states that they (these church members) came out of the great tribulation.

In order of coming out of it one needs to be in it.

So the church cannot be raptured prior to the tribulation according to this text.

Note: the fact that we see the church in heaven in this text DOES NOT MEAN that the entire church was taken up in the MIDDLE of the tribulation.
All this text describes is that certain church members (not necessarily all) were in the tribulation then were taken out of it.
It is like, once we die we also would go there and join them in time.

In any case, this shows that these church members were IN the tribulation and THEN came out of it.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[LutheranMafia]

Don't forget 1 Corinthians 15:51-52:
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and [B] we shall be changed.







DaRev, where are you when I need you?

[Jim47]

Thanks Toffner and Edial, I will most certainly use these scriptures, but for now I need to get at my chores. Gots bunches to do after being in the hospital for so long, and if I may be so bold, please keep me in your prayers as I seem to be slipping backwards.

[RadMan]

Thanks Toffner and Edial, I will most certainly use these scriptures, but for now I need to get at my chores. Gots bunches to do after being in the hospital for so long, and if I may be so bold, please keep me in your prayers as I seem to be slipping backwards.Maybe you didn't rest enough after your hospital stay and pace yourself to do chores. :doh:

I have to pace myself now all the time now since my accidents. If I do too much then I get worn out and sick and then I can't do anything for a few days.

[filosofer]

Gots bunches to do after being in the hospital for so long, and if I may be so bold, please keep me in your prayers as I seem to be slipping backwards.


The wise advice is: for every day in the hospital it takes seven days to recuperate. So, go slow, my friend.

[seajoy]

but for now I need to get at my chores. Gots bunches to do after being in the hospital for so long, and if I may be so bold, please keep me in your prayers as I seem to be slipping backwards.
Must I come and klunk you over the head and knock you out, so you have no choice but to rest???? :P Listen to the wise sages, Rad and filo, ('course, filo should listen to his own advice :)).

[Jim47]

I'm going slow and resting as needed, but excercize and fresh air and sunshine are important to my recovery. The Lord uses these to make us strong again, just as He uses His scripture to make us spiritually strong.

I was reading from Hebwers again this morning. It just wanted to make me cry cause of all the beautiful promises Our Lord has given us. How great our final gathering will be!!!!! :angel:

[LutheranMafia]

I'm going slow and resting as needed, but excercize and fresh air and sunshine are important to my recovery. The Lord uses these to make us strong again, just as He uses His scripture to make us spiritually strong.
You call sitting back on the porch sipping lemon aid a chore? :D

(At the height of my illness there were long stretches where even watching most TV was too stressful. I could only watch documentaries, plot-less comedy like America's Funniest Videos, or old movies on AMC. Any kind of drama, even on TV, was just too much.)

[Tofferer]

DaRev, where are you when I need you?



LM,

I am using material written by a LUTHERAN pastor named Aaron Luther Plueger. He was the author of the book "Things to come for Planet Earth". It was a refutation of Hal Lindsey's "Late Great Planet Earth". You can find the Plueger book here:

http://www.amazon.com/Things-come-planet-Earth-Bible/dp/057003762X/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215220590&sr=8-4.


At $0.40 for the book, it is well worth the shipping charge.

[DominusIesus]

As someone who was in the Plymouth Brethren for a while the solution is to get her to articulate the underlying premises of her position. None of the verses that she will use to defend the pre-tribulational rapture actually refer to such a thing but they do within the framework of her dispensational hermenutic.

Her view will rest upon the view that God has two people, Israel and the Church. Once you demonstrate that to be false her view will change.

[RadMan]

Usually when I get into a converstion with end times people the conversation abruptly ends when I say "What diference does it make as long as you are saved and right with God?"

[LutheranMafia]

LM,

I am using material written by a LUTHERAN pastor named Aaron Luther Plueger.I'm sure Rev. Plueger also quotes 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 in his book you mention and shares your view of the rapture, but you did not go beyond the Biblical verse in your quote. I was objecting to your implied interpretation of the verse, I think that the final part of the verse is a statement of contrast. Something will happen to all spirits, whether incarnate or not, but it won't be quite as dramatic for the living. The physical world will still look largely the same, but something will change within and "all men's tears shall be wiped away", while in contrast the spirit world will not look the same at all after this prophecy comes to pass.

[Tofferer]

I think the difference is that I am only reading what it says and nothing more.

[LutheranMafia]

I think the difference is that I am only reading what it says and nothing more.What am I adding? Please be more specific.

If I am adding something, then why does my opinion agree with Luther here and yours is quite distinct from Luther? Who is adding to what?

[RadMan]

I'm sure Rev. Plueger also quotes 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 in his book you mention and shares your view of the rapture, but you did not go beyond the Biblical verse in your quote. I was objecting to your implied interpretation of the verse, I think that the final part of the verse is a statement of contrast. Something will happen to all spirits, whether incarnate or not, but it won't be quite as dramatic for the living. The physical world will still look largely the same, but something will change within and "all men's tears shall be wiped away", while in contrast the spirit world will not look the same at all after this prophecy comes to pass.Where does Luther say all this? I must have missed it. You said to Toff that Luther implied this but you also are saying "I think". Big difference.

[Edial]

:D I would suggest that is because their eschatology is all rather other worldly. If we realise that through the death and resurrection of Christ, the future has become present then it has huge implications for our current walk. If you are looking for a tecnhical name it's called a realised eschatology.

Some great sermons to enjoy: .....

:thumbsup:
You do understand that realized eschatology is not a Lutheran set of beliefs.

Although Lutherans believe that the Kingdom of God is here it also believes that the 2nd coming of Christ was not yet fulfilled.
Realized Theology appears to believe that all prophecies were fulfilled at 70AD.

Thanks,
Ed

[LutheranMafia]

Where does Luther say all this? I must have missed it. You said to Toff that Luther implied this but you also are saying "I think". Big difference.Ok, you got me there, I don't know what the fine points of Luther's views are on a concept that didn't even exist in his day, so I don't know exactly how he would oppose it himself, all I know is that he would, and I suspect it would be in much the same manner that DaRev does.

[DaRev]

You do understand that realized eschatology is not a Lutheran set of beliefs.

Although Lutherans believe that the Kingdom of God is here it also believes that the 2nd coming of Christ was not yet fulfilled.
Realized Theology appears to believe that all prophecies were fulfilled at 70AD.

Thanks,
Ed, meaning tha

Thanks,
Ed

The Lutheran teaching is called Realized Millennium, meaning that the "1000 years" refers to the Church age which is currently being realized. At the end of the "millennium" (the Church Age) will be the eschaton, the return of Christ.

[Tofferer]

Amen!

[DominusIesus]

You do understand that realized eschatology is not a Lutheran set of beliefs.

Although Lutherans believe that the Kingdom of God is here it also believes that the 2nd coming of Christ was not yet fulfilled.
Realized Theology appears to believe that all prophecies were fulfilled at 70AD.

Thanks,
Ed

What do you make of Joachim Jeremias?

I think you should do some more reading on what a realized eschatology means, it certainly does not mean the second coming has happened. Just like there are varieties of preterism so the term "realised eschatology" is used to mean different things by different scholars and theologians.

As F. F. Bruce notes in the Elwell Evangelical Dictionary:
"In the apostolic teaching this eternal life may be enjoyed here and now, although its full flowering awaits a future consummation. The death and resurrection of Christ have introduced a new phase of the kingdom, in which those who believe in him share his risen life already, even while they live on earth in mortal body. There is an indeterminate interval between Christ's resurrection and parousia, and during this interval the age to come overlaps the present age. Christians live spiritually in "this age" while they live temporally in "this age"; through the indwelling Spirit of God they enjoy the resurrection life of "that age" in anticipation.This outlook has been called "realized eschatology." But the realized eschatology of the NT does not exclude an eschatological consummation to come."

[DominusIesus]

The Lutheran teaching is called Realized Millennium, meaning that the "1000 years" refers to the Church age which is currently being realized. At the end of the "millennium" (the Church Age) will be the eschaton, the return of Christ.

Or, in other words, a 'realised' eschatology or an 'inaugurated' eschatology.

[DaRev]

As F. F. Bruce notes in the Elwell Evangelical Dictionary:
"In the apostolic teaching this eternal life may be enjoyed here and now, although its full flowering awaits a future consummation. The death and resurrection of Christ have introduced a new phase of the kingdom, in which those who believe in him share his risen life already, even while they live on earth in mortal body. There is an indeterminate interval between Christ's resurrection and parousia, and during this interval the age to come overlaps the present age. Christians live spiritually in "this age" while they live temporally in "this age"; through the indwelling Spirit of God they enjoy the resurrection life of "that age" in anticipation.This outlook has been called "realized eschatology." But the realized eschatology of the NT does not exclude an eschatological consummation to come."


This is a very good description.


Or, in other words, a 'realised' eschatology or an 'inaugurated' eschatology.


The terms "realized eschatology" (which I've never heard before but the description above does accurately reflect the Lutheran teaching on our current state) and "realized millennium" actually describe two different things. "Realized millennium" is a descriptor of the Biblical end times view held by Lutherans, that the "1000 years" spoken of in Scripture is a figurative description of the present Church age which involves both believers and non-believers, since both live in this temporal world at this time. "Realized eschatology" would be a descriptor of the state of believers during this age.

[DominusIesus]

The terms "realized eschatology" (which I've never heard before but the description above does accurately reflect the Lutheran teaching on our current state) and "realized millennium" actually describe two different things. "Realized millennium" is a descriptor of the Biblical end times view held by Lutherans, that the "1000 years" spoken of in Scripture is a figurative description of the present Church age which involves both believers and non-believers, since both live in this temporal world at this time. "Realized eschatology" would be a descriptor of the state of believers during this age.

I suppose it would probably be better to distinguish between the broader 'realized eschatology' and the narrower 'realized millennium' (a.k.a. Amillennialism), the latter being a subset of the former. I think though that "Realized eschatology" would be broader than simply being a descriptor of the state of believers during this age.

[filosofer]

So, DI, how do you understand C. H. Dodd's original use of "realized eschatology" and this broader application? And is there any reason for his use because it reflected his liberal theological stance?

[DominusIesus]

So, DI, how do you understand C. H. Dodd's original use of "realized eschatology" and this broader application? And is there any reason for his use because it reflected his liberal theological stance?

Well there is an essay question if ever I heard one! ;)

In brief, it depends upon just how realised Dodd's eschatology was in fact realised. Was it a complete realisation or did he allow for a future realisation as he seems to argue in The Founder of Christianity. There is some scholarly debate on this, see G. E. Ladd's A Theology of the New Testament (pp. 56) for example. I would prefer Jeremias' "eschatology in process of realisation".

I do believe that it is important to view Jesus’ pronouncements concerning the Kingdom of God in light of Second Temple apocalyptic-eschatological expectation. Jesus appeared upon the scene described thus by St. Mark, "Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” We should ask what "the kingdom of God" meant in the context.

This kingdom has been established, inauguated, and is in the process of being realised but we have the already/not yet tension still.

[DaRev]

'realized millennium' (a.k.a. Amillennialism)

"Realized millenium" is not amillennialism. Amillennialism literally means "no millennium" which is actually contradictory to Scripture. There is a "1000 year reign of Christ" and it's in place right now, thus "realized millennialism".

I do know that those who hold to "amillennialism" are actually holding to "realized millennialism", but the former isn't really an accurate descriptor of the Biblical teaching.

[DominusIesus]

"Realized millenium" is not amillennialism. Amillennialism literally means "no millennium" which is actually contradictory to Scripture. There is a "1000 year reign of Christ" and it's in place right now, thus "realized millennialism".

I do know that those who hold to "amillennialism" are actually holding to "realized millennialism", but the former isn't really an accurate descriptor of the Biblical teaching.

Whilst the etymology of "Amillennialism" means literally 'no millennium' the position does not teach there is no millennium but rather that the millennium begin with Christ's early ministry and consists of the whole Church age. Hence "Amillennialism" and "Realized millennium" are synonyms.

[DaRev]

Whilst the etymology of "Amillennialism" means literally 'no millennium' the position does not teach there is no millennium but rather that the millennium begin with Christ's early ministry and consists of the whole Church age. Hence "Amillennialism" and "Realized millennium" are synonyms.

I agree basically with that. But still the Lutheran Church does not normally use the word "amillennialism" to describe our eschatology. That was the only point I was making. :)

[filosofer]

Contra Dodd, et al, who teach "realized eschatology" (RE), Lutherans teach "inaugurated eschatology." The focal point is different: for those who espouse RE classically have done so with social agenda as the"realized" portion (what we do). For Lutherans, inaugurated eschatology is all encompassing and centered in Word and Sacrament, "Christ with us" in W&S means that the victorious Christ has come into time and is present with his people in this specific way.

[DaRev]

:thumbsup: Thanks for that, Doc.

[filosofer]

One further point of the Lutheran view: missions, evangelism, and social ministry result from the core of W&S ministry, and occur outside the context of worship. Worship is who we are (because of what God does for us, which we receive by faith), missions/evangelism/social ministry is what we do in response.

[DominusIesus]

Contra Dodd, et al, who teach "realized eschatology" (RE), Lutherans teach "inaugurated eschatology." The focal point is different: for those who espouse RE classically have done so with social agenda as the"realized" portion (what we do). For Lutherans, inaugurated eschatology is all encompassing and centered in Word and Sacrament, "Christ with us" in W&S means that the victorious Christ has come into time and is present with his people in this specific way.

Indeed, but many evangelical scholars/theologians use the term 'realised eschatology' to refer to the now/not-yet dichotomy and not in the way that Dodd et al used it. An inaugurated eschatology is an eschatology that is realised and vice versa.

[DominusIesus]

I agree basically with that. But still the Lutheran Church does not normally use the word "amillennialism" to describe our eschatology. That was the only point I was making. :)

Fair enough :)

[KEPLER]

I'm not arguing with DI or DR when I point this out - that "amillenial" is a polemical term, invented by some of the Reformed scholars to describe a theological stance in opposition to both pre- and post-millenialism, both of which posit a literal 1000 year reign of Christ. So the term - historically - means "no [literal] millenium."

I agree with both of you, just putting a finer point on it.

[Edial]

Indeed, but many evangelical scholars/theologians use the term 'realised eschatology' to refer to the now/not-yet dichotomy and not in the way that Dodd et al used it. An inaugurated eschatology is an eschatology that is realised and vice versa.
When this question came up I read articles I found on Internet concerning realized eschatology. They stated that this train of thought believes that the prophecies concerning Christ, including Christ's 2nd Coming, were fulfilled at about 70 AD.

I did not find even one article saying it is otherwise.

Quote by F.F.Bruce is quite vague on this topic.

Do followers of realized eschatology believe in Christ's future and bodily 2nd Coming?

Thanks,
Ed

[DominusIesus]

When this question came up I read articles I found on Internet concerning realized eschatology.

As noted before, the phrase can be used in a technical sense (c.f. Dodd) or in a far broader sense.

They stated that this train of thought believes that the prophecies concerning Christ, including Christ's 2nd Coming, were fulfilled at about 70 AD. I did not find even one article saying it is otherwise.

Written by whom?

Do followers of realized eschatology believe in Christ's future and bodily 2nd Coming?

It would depend upon which definition you are using and who you ask. Some do and some do not. The term originated with C. H. Dodd and he did. A realised eschatology teaches that the kingdom of God began when Christ came hence,

Matthew 12:28 "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you."

Mark 1:15 "And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."