Talking to Church of Christ people

[trentlogain]

I know a couple of people who attend this church and I'm wondering if they are saved. Do you think people who believe in Christ and have repented of their sins, but also think that baptism is a means of salvation as well are going to heaven?

It makes me sad to think about how many people have been duped by that cult into believing that sprinkling water over them will get them to heaven aside from the grace of God.

[nateroman]

Well many people all over the world believe different things, are apart of different denominations, and see things or interpret thing a little bit different then you or I.

IMO that doesn't stop them from receiving God's Grace and his eternal gift. If they truely repent and ask the Lord to come into their heart, and try to live for him, then I feel their names are written in the Lambs Book of Life and they will see Jesus in Heaven.

I have friends of many different 'Christian' cultures and they may feel strongly about one thing vs. another. But they are all works. And works doesn't get you into Heaven. If a person believes she is saved only through the works of baptism then you need to show them the scriptures that clearly state the words of Jesus, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6
She has moved too much of her trust to a symbol and away from the Savior, Jesus Christ.
Man was separated from for God and banished from the presence of God due to his sin. Jesus therefore declares that the reconciliation and redemption are achieved through him and through no one or nothing else. Justified by Faith in Him. Any act or anything we do based on our faith is a symbol of obedience to Jesus.

anyway... just my two cents...

[nzguy]

yeah.. you can be genuinely saved.. asking Christ into your life for eternal life, and then be taught twisted doctrine afterwards. This happens all the time..

* there are a number of para-church organisations like YFC, Campus Crusade for Christ and others who have a straight salvation prayer.. but they aren't churches.. and so the people get saved and then go to whatever church they want to.. and get fed all kinds of other doctrines.. if the church they go to is bible-based.. then they get fed the right stuff and continue to be established well in Christ.. but if they end up in a church that teaches baptism saves.. or salvation is by works.. then the first salvation prayer they did remains.. but they get nasty spiritual food.

So salvation is a free gift, that is not earned, independent of baptism.. independent of works..can in no way be lossed.

Joh 10:28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.

Rom 8:37 But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(1Pe 3:18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

2 Co 1:22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

so with these verses.. salvation is taken care of.. signed, sealed and delivered.. there are no have tos.. no works in there

a person can be saved and then get into twisted doctrine.. even not pursue God.. but that doesn't render God's payment for their sin obsolete.. God has brought that person with His blood!

[ImmersionX]

I know a couple of people who attend this church and I'm wondering if they are saved. Do you think people who believe in Christ and have repented of their sins, but also think that baptism is a means of salvation as well are going to heaven?

It makes me sad to think about how many people have been duped by that cult into believing that sprinkling water over them will get them to heaven aside from the grace of God.

Well based solely on that...yes. But there is so much more to walking as a disciple in life than our Baptism.
Define cult please as well. As a former member of the Roman Catholic Church(now a southern baptist christian) I find that the word "cult" here in CF is thrown around a LOT!
In your own words...what defines a cult?

Peace and God Bless.

[NavyChristian]

I actually have first hand experience with this. In high school a few years ago I didn't know what was in my own heart as far as a personal relationship with God. I prayed and I read my bible, but I really didn't feel comfortable at any church unless I knew someone that went there.

Anyway... I went to a Church of Christ with my girlfriend at the time for a few months and frankly, there's not a lot of difference in Church of Christ and Baptists. They essentially believe the same thing except instrumental music which I didn't like. But as for the baptism part, I can understand how they would construe the Jesus baptizing story in John as essential to eternity with Christ, but we as Baptists were raised to believe that baptism is a symbol of our commitment to Christ. The only real difference is that they believe it's essential and we believe it's not. Overall, it's very similar.

Oh and yes, this is my first post on this forum. Hi everyone. :)

[nzguy]

hi navychristian, yeah I don't know much about Church of Christ.. but there is a Korean Church of God here, and they worship a divine mother.. and are obsessed with teh passover.. cling to it's rituals.

I always thought the church of Christ was very different from Baptist churches.. at least American Baptists.. independent baptists and missionary baptists..

[ImmersionX]

I actually have first hand experience with this. In high school a few years ago I didn't know what was in my own heart as far as a personal relationship with God. I prayed and I read my bible, but I really didn't feel comfortable at any church unless I knew someone that went there.

Anyway... I went to a Church of Christ with my girlfriend at the time for a few months and frankly, there's not a lot of difference in Church of Christ and Baptists. They essentially believe the same thing except instrumental music which I didn't like. But as for the baptism part, I can understand how they would construe the Jesus baptizing story in John as essential to eternity with Christ, but we as Baptists were raised to believe that baptism is a symbol of our commitment to Christ. The only real difference is that they believe it's essential and we believe it's not. Overall, it's very similar.

Oh and yes, this is my first post on this forum. Hi everyone. :)

Same here...I dated a girl for a LONG time in highschool...she and her family were members of University Church of Christ........didn't notice any difference in anything....even witnessed a few baptism's...same thing stated there as what was stated in my current church(SBC btw.)

Father, Son, Holy Spirit, etc.

Peace.

[NavyChristian]

If you were to be put into a Church of Christ worship service and then a Baptist service and asked to tell the difference, it would be quite difficult. The music is the big give away though, Church of Christ members don't believe in instrumental music of any kind, they just blow a tuner right before the hymn and start singing away.

The church I'm going to right now has a full band with guitars and drums and they play modern Christian rock music, its a blast. Every Sunday morning is like a concert with most of the congregation on their feet with hands in the air, it's awesome.

[trentlogain]

Well based solely on that...yes. But there is so much more to walking as a disciple in life than our Baptism.
Define cult please as well. As a former member of the Roman Catholic Church(now a southern baptist christian) I find that the word "cult" here in CF is thrown around a LOT!
In your own words...what defines a cult?

Peace and God Bless.
I define a cult by a group of people whose beliefs are out in left field, meaning that they're seperated from the rest of the publics most notable opinion. I agree that the life of a disciple involves a lot more than the act of a baptism, but I'm just worried that the CoC is dangerous. I may or may not have been in one of their assemblies myself, but the thought of people passing through a church like that and thinking that they are going to get baptized and go to heaven is scary. Again, I don't know how much emphasis they put on faith in Jesus before then baptize you, but personally speaking I think a church should adhere more to biblical standards. So If I were to ask any CoC member of pastor any questions they would be these:

1. Do you think that a person has to be baptized in conjunction with repenting and believing in Christ as your Savior? If so, how do you explain the thief who died with Jesus on the crosses who Christ said 'Today you will be with me in paradise". More importantly do you believe The Bible when it says in Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works so that noone can boast."

As for one of the lesser manner of things concerning no instruments in service, where exactly do you get this rule from in The Bible? What do you learn from people in The Bible who played instruments before the Lord like David? How do you justify playing music through a device since the people doing that used musical instruments?

These are just a few questions. Any Coc or non-Coc member who would like to respond it would be appreciated. Thanks

[christian73]

The instrument thing is the only thing the Church of Christ people have wrong imo, but that has nothing to do with Salvation. My belief is that instruments are biblical. As mentioned in the previous post, David played before the Lord.

[SoldierOfTheKing]

What exactly is it that leads you to believe that baptism is something separate from the grace of God? Is there a particular reason for viewing baptism as a human work, that men can take credit for, rather than something that God, by grace, provides for His people? I don't intend to start a debate but I'm wondering if you realize how others with a different understanding of what baptism is might not see salvation by baptism as salvation by works.

[FreeinChrist]

I know a couple of people who attend this church and I'm wondering if they are saved. Do you think people who believe in Christ and have repented of their sins, but also think that baptism is a means of salvation as well are going to heaven?

It makes me sad to think about how many people have been duped by that cult into believing that sprinkling water over them will get them to heaven aside from the grace of God.

They are not a cult. Whether they think baptism is a means of salvation or not does not change the fact that they believe we (including all humans) are all sinners who need to repent of our sin and believe in Christ. In many ways, they are like Baptists.

[mlqurgw]

It has been several years since I studied Church of Christ doctrine so I am working from memory, which is getting worse as I get older. I believe that the CoC started right here in Kentucky with its founder Alexander Campbell. They came out of the Baptist church, which explains why their service is so similar. They hold to baptismal regeneration and are very Arminian in theology. There is something about the Lord's supper that they hold heretically as well but I can't remember the details. They tend to be very legalistic and put their people in bondage to their doctrine. Yes they are very dangerous to the souls of men and women.

[FreeinChrist]

Baptists view baptism as an act of obedience rather than an act of salvation. We see it as the outward expression of an inward change that already occurred. The baptism that saves is the regeneration of the Holy Spirit on acceptance of Christ as Savior (Titus 3:5), having repented of one's sins and asking forgiveness - not a water baptism.

[FreeinChrist]

I define a cult by a group of people whose beliefs are out in left field, meaning that they're seperated from the rest of the publics most notable opinion. I agree that the life of a disciple involves a lot more than the act of a baptism, but I'm just worried that the CoC is dangerous. I may or may not have been in one of their assemblies myself, but the thought of people passing through a church like that and thinking that they are going to get baptized and go to heaven is scary. Again, I don't know how much emphasis they put on faith in Jesus before then baptize you, but personally speaking I think a church should adhere more to biblical standards. So If I were to ask any CoC member of pastor any questions they would be these:

1. Do you think that a person has to be baptized in conjunction with repenting and believing in Christ as your Savior? If so, how do you explain the thief who died with Jesus on the crosses who Christ said 'Today you will be with me in paradise". More importantly do you believe The Bible when it says in Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works so that noone can boast."

As for one of the lesser manner of things concerning no instruments in service, where exactly do you get this rule from in The Bible? What do you learn from people in The Bible who played instruments before the Lord like David? How do you justify playing music through a device since the people doing that used musical instruments?

These are just a few questions. Any Coc or non-Coc member who would like to respond it would be appreciated. Thanks


Well, the CoC person cannot debate their point of view here.

You might check out this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_of_Christ

Also, in regards to the definition of a cult, I tend to go with this:
A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgement, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of [consequences of] leaving it, etc) designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community." 8

and/or
"By cultism we mean the adherence to doctrines which are pointedly contradictory to orthodox Christianity and which yet claim the distinction of either tracing their origin to orthodox sources or of being in essential harmony with those sources. Cultism, in short, is any major deviation from orthodox Christianity relative to the cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith.
http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3402

The CoC does not fit that definition. An important factor is in regards to the deity of Christ - they are orthodox in their view of Jesus as opposed to Mormons or the Jehovah Witnesses.

[mlqurgw]

Well, the CoC person cannot debate their point of view here.

You might check out this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_of_Christ

Also, in regards to the definition of a cult, I tend to go with this:


and/or

http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3402

The CoC does not fit that definition. An important factor is in regards to the deity of Christ - they are orthodox in their view of Jesus as opposed to Mormons or the Jehovah Witnesses.You might change your mind if you read some of Alexander Campbell's denial of the trinity and the work of the Holy Spirit. Though they do not eny the deity of Christ they do deny His Eternal Sonship. While claiming to be Orthodox they deny Orthodoxy.

[ImmersionX]

It has been several years since I studied Church of Christ doctrine so I am working from memory, which is getting worse as I get older. I believe that the CoC started right here in Kentucky with its founder Alexander Campbell. They came out of the Baptist church, which explains why their service is so similar. They hold to baptismal regeneration and are very Arminian in theology. There is something about the Lord's supper that they hold heretically as well but I can't remember the details. They tend to be very legalistic and put their people in bondage to their doctrine. Yes they are very dangerous to the souls of men and women.

You are correct....memory isn't that bad eh? :thumbsup: Not sure about the lord's supper issue...but I've been a part of a CoC ordinance of the Lord's supper...it's crackers and grapejuice. :)
I don't see how dangerous they are...but I guess it can be different from church to church...they absolutely hold to the autonomy of the local church doctrine for sure.

The thing with me is that it seems that a lot are quick to call heresy or danger about a denom that differs in doctrine. I'll be the first to say the Word of Faith is a HERESY, just as Gnosticism was/is back in the 2nd century church.

It's all very complicated eh.


Peace and God bless.

[ImmersionX]

You might change your mind if you read some of Alexander Campbell's denial of the trinity and the work of the Holy Spirit. Though they do not eny the deity of Christ they do deny His Eternal Sonship. While claiming to be Orthodox they deny Orthodoxy.

As far as this goes, I've read his ideas of things...and it doesn't seem to me he deny's the Trinity...I have read other's works regarding him and Barton Stone, etc...who claim that they indeed do deny a Trinity.

Now I do know that a sect broke off from the original "Campbellites" eventually called Christadelphians that indeed do deny a Trinity. Maybe that is what you are thinking?

And just to clarify a bit:

Barton Stone, Thomas and Alexander Campbell merged into the Disciples of Christ denomination during the Restoration Movement.
Conservatives of this newly formed denomination(Christian Church, Disciples of Christ) didn't like the way things were moving, so separated to form the Churches of Christ as we know them today.
So honestly the names mentioned started the Restoration Movement, founded a merged group, an eventual liberal leaning group...then the CoC was born, INDIRECTLY from the names that have been thrown around in this thread.

CoC doctrines:*

1.) Bible is inspired and inerrant....sole authority for faith and practice....
2.) GOD--the one true God is eternally manifest in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
3.) Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior, the divine Messiah, and the Son of God...
4.) Baptism is by immersion for believers only. Only adults are baptized, for only adults have a proper understanding and appreciation of penitence and faith. Infants cannot be baptized, for they have no sin(until the age of accountability) and cannot qualify as "believers". Baptism is necessary for salvation.
5.) Lord's supper is observed on a weekly basis.

*excerpts from The Complete Guide to Christian Denominations by Ron Rhodes.

Peace and God Bless.

[FreeinChrist]

That is how I understood it from CoC friends of mine.

I am hesitant to use "heresy" or "cult" - to me they are strong words that I'd never want to use wrongly.

[NavyChristian]

What exactly is it that leads you to believe that baptism is something separate from the grace of God? Is there a particular reason for viewing baptism as a human work, that men can take credit for, rather than something that God, by grace, provides for His people? I don't intend to start a debate but I'm wondering if you realize how others with a different understanding of what baptism is might not see salvation by baptism as salvation by works.

I don't believe baptism is a key to heaven, it's a sign of your commitment to the Lord above. While it isn't necessary to get into heaven, it's a sign of your faith. It's like saying, "God, I am yours and will submerge myself in water to wash away my former life and live for you." I've been baptized and it does have a profound impact on you if you're doing it by choice. I don't believe it's necessary to be saved. Just put your life in the hands of the good Lord above and commit to serving him and everything else seems small in comparison. :)

[cremi]

No...CoC is NOT a cult. Are they dangerous? Some of the more consevative and traditional congregations may be, but due to their legalism and nothing else.

I grew up SBC, then in my late teens/early 20's, started studying with some CoC members. I joined. I met my dh there, was married and attended a CoC for more than 20 years. We no longer attend a CoC, as we now are attending an SBC.

It's hard to put all CoC's under one label. After all, people of the Restoration Movement also include the Independent Christian Church and the Disciples of Christ, as well as churches of Christ. Their beliefs are similar in many ways, yet different. For example, most DIC churches have instruments and many ordain women. Most independent Christian churches also have instruments, but are divided on those that ordain women and those that don't. Churches of Christ though, are mix on the instrumental issue. Very conservative or traditional CoC's do not have instruments and do not have women leading, but many more "progressive" CoC's do have instruments, and though they don't ordain women, they have given women more roles in which to serve.

Pretty much any church considered to be a part of the Restoration Movement believes in taking the Lord's Supper on a weekly basis. The idea behind that is:
Acts 20:7
7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

The idea of Baptism being requried for salavation is also a belief of many RM churches, but most especially the church of Christ. Again though, many more progressive churches of Christ have a more "moderate" view on baptism, in that many don't believe it is requried for salvation, but that baptism is still very important. The more conservative/tradtional CoC's will teach that baptsim is requied per 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16.

1 Peter 3:21
21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Acts 2:38
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:16
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

They also believe in immersion. I've never been to a CoC or Christian church that sprinkled. They are very adament about immersion.

My understanding of Campbell and Stone was that Barton Stone was the one who denied the Trinity---not Campbell. However, Campbell and Stone are not talked about at all in worship settings or even most classes. What I learned about Campbell and Stone was brought to my attention from someone outside of the church of Christ.

I would not say they are a cult. They do not follow the teachings of any man and they rely heavily upon the bible, so much so that they often reject the use of commentaries, but encourage the use of interlinears and lexicons. As far as people who study their bibles and know scripture well, I think they would put many Baptists to shame. I believe this is in part what drew me to this group of people.

I did grow and mature there, as well as my husband. I believe I learned how to really study scripture there and learned how to read my bible for itself, rather than what man's interpretation of it could be. Ironically, the more I studied and the more my husband studied, the more we drew away from church of Christ teachings. That's how God works sometimes though...in very intersting ways.

[trinityisunity]

We have a Church of Christ denomination in Australia, However I do not know if it is related to the one you are all discussing?

We have a Church of Christ in our little town and it seems to be very similar to Baptist beliefs after I went there and observed their service before I applied for a position there. They are sometimes called our Baptist cousins over here in Oz. They used instruments and had women worship leaders and they also have a couple of female elders.

They are big on Communion and take it at every service-which does not bother me because Scripture does say to take it when gathered together-not once a month(which is what we do at the Baptist church I go to). I turned down the position there because I did not feel at peace with accepting it and felt extremely at peace by not accepting it. All my Baptist pastor friends did not warn me or tell me to stay clear of this denomination so I am guessing that they are not that bad, well at least the C of C over here!!!

[Harry3142]

I was a member of the CofC back in the 1960's, so my memory of them is from that period. The ministers (there were four) that I heard preach taught a form of salvation that reminded more of the carrot on the stick than it did of Christian doctrine. Every sermon focussed on 'one more thing' that we had to do/believe to merit eternity with God; baptism by immersion was only the first in a long line of these dictates.

The reason that I typed 'do/believe' was because their dictates dealt more with what the 'true Christian' was to believe, rather than what he was to do. Feeding the hungry and clothing the naked was to be seen as a job for the state, not for Christians; our sole responsibility was to bring more people into the 'only true, Christian church' and separate them from their home denominations, which we were to recognize as 'aberrations en masse', with special rancor aimed at the Roman Catholic Church.

There was one passage of Scripture which the CofC avoided like the plague. A person could expect to be excommunicated from the church if he even asked a question concerning it. This is that passage:

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)