Jah, Jeh or Yah?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Did the Grecian Hebrews corrupt the Hebrew language? I remember reading some scholarly work, where in an ancient document a scribe was complaining that the Grecian Hebrews were adding vowel points to the Hebraic language, in favor of the Grecian language. Not being an expert on the Hebrew language, I ask this question? Did the Grecian Hebrews bring about a change in how the Hebrew is written and spoken today? Is the name Yeshua a Grecian language form, from Yahshua? And is Jahovah a Grecian form of Yahwah?

[jaihare]

Did the Grecian Hebrews corrupt the Hebrew language? I remember reading some scholarly work, where in an ancient document a scribe was complaining that the Grecian Hebrews were adding vowel points to the Hebraic language, in favor of the Grecian language. Not being an expert on the Hebrew language, I ask this question? Did the Grecian Hebrews bring about a change in how the Hebrew is written and spoken today? Is the name Yeshua a Grecian language form, from Yahshua? And is Jahovah a Grecian form of Yahwah?
By "Grecian Jews", I assume that you mean "Jews living in Greece/Hellas". Is that a correct assumption, or do you mean to refer to all of Hellenistic Jewry?

In ancient Hebrew, there were very few vowel markers. The only consistent markers, as far as I can remember, were the plural markers and certain verbal constructions (such as the hif'il, which has a necessary yod in the second half). Other than that, the other vowel markers were probably added during the time of Ezra the Scribe (as far as textual critics say).

There is nothing to indicate that vowel markers were being added as the result of any Hellenistic influence. Vowel markers were added as the result of Babylonian influence on Hebrew orthography.

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

By "Grecian Jews", I assume that you mean "Jews living in Greece/Hellas". Is that a correct assumption, or do you mean to refer to all of Hellenistic Jewry?

In ancient Hebrew, there were very few vowel markers. The only consistent markers, as far as I can remember, were the plural markers and certain verbal constructions (such as the hif'il, which has a necessary yod in the second half). Other than that, the other vowel markers were probably added during the time of Ezra the Scribe (as far as textual critics say).

There is nothing to indicate that vowel markers were being added as the result of any Hellenistic influence. Vowel markers were added as the result of Babylonian influence on Hebrew orthography.

Jason I'm talking about before or after the babylonian captivity. About 333 BC to 167BC. In that time frame.

[jaihare]

Then, what's the connection to Greece exactly?

It was the writing and spelling conventions of the Babylonians — with the Aramaic language — that influenced all manner of writing in Hebrew before and during the return from Babylon.

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Then, what's the connection to Greece exactly?

It was the writing and spelling conventions of the Babylonians — with the Aramaic language — that influenced all manner of writing in Hebrew before and during the return from Babylon.

Jason I presume it was some kind of Grecian Roman connection.

[kivi]

kivi says:
I was a school teacher for a long time. I monitored a lot of school playground recesses. One year there was a kid who did the following. He would tease some of the other kids. He wasn't a bully, he couldn't pull that off. But he would mess up their games taking and hiding the ball or running through the middle of the dodgeball game or some such other really annoying thing. He would chase the girls and get them all screaming, he would have the boys chasing him so they could 'get' him and in a few minutes he would have the entire playground in an uproar. He loved to run to me, blaming all the other kids for picking on him. It was total chaos and there I was, trying to deal with 'he said, they said' and never really seeing the first cause of the upset!!!! So, I would scream at everybody to behave, threatening to take eveybody's recess away and the uproar would quiet down until next recess and then, start up all over again. Recess after recess after recess. It was a Baruka that one of my students pointed out to me exactly what was happening. I checked it out for myself and the student was right. I thought on it for a while, checked with my principal and put this plan of action into effect. We ignored him. It was hard. He was very good at what he did. It was really hard not to react to his behaviors. But we stuck with it, encouraging each other to stay out of it and not get hooked, ignoring his junky actions and teasing. Over time, the situation did improve somewhat. His behaviors never really went away, he would keep trying to get the uproar started, testing to see if our guard was down. But, eventually, most of the junk behavior by him stopped. Recesses were a lot more enjoyable for everybody. Well, maybe not him. But the rest of us stopped dreading recess and started looking forward to it.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

kivi says:
I was a school teacher for a long time. I monitored a lot of school playground recesses. One year there was a kid who did the following. He would tease some of the other kids. He wasn't a bully, he couldn't pull that off. But he would mess up their games taking and hiding the ball or running through the middle of the dodgeball game or some such other really annoying thing. He would chase the girls and get them all screaming, he would have the boys chasing him so they could 'get' him and in a few minutes he would have the entire playground in an uproar. He loved to run to me, blaming all the other kids for picking on him. It was total chaos and there I was, trying to deal with 'he said, they said' and never really seeing the first cause of the upset!!!! So, I would scream at everybody to behave, threatening to take eveybody's recess away and the uproar would quiet down until next recess and then, start up all over again. Recess after recess after recess. It was a Baruka that one of my students pointed out to me exactly what was happening. I checked it out for myself and the student was right. I thought on it for a while, checked with my principal and put this plan of action into effect. We ignored him. It was hard. He was very good at what he did. It was really hard not to react to his behaviors. But we stuck with it, encouraging each other to stay out of it and not get hooked, ignoring his junky actions and teasing. Over time, the situation did improve somewhat. His behaviors never really went away, he would keep trying to get the uproar started, testing to see if our guard was down. But, eventually, most of the junk behavior by him stopped. Recesses were a lot more enjoyable for everybody. Well, maybe not him. But the rest of us stopped dreading recess and started looking forward to it. Thank you for sharing that with us Kivi.

[ContraMundum]

If you ask some people in my family...they blame all the "errors" in the Hebrew language on the Askenazi! LOL (Yeah yeah, I know most of the posters here are American Jews, and most American Jews are probably (?) Ashkenazi, but I think they'll see the humour and the irony- lots of Yiddish words are used colloquially by Sephardi-speaking Jews)

But seriously....I don't think the Diaspora Jews could be regarded as any "worse" at Hebrew than the ones living in the Middle East. Languages always change, and are always influenced by surrounding or other languages, regardless of their placement in the world.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

If you ask some people in my family...they blame all the "errors" in the Hebrew language on the Askenazi! LOL (Yeah yeah, I know most of the posters here are American Jews, and most American Jews are probably (?) Ashkenazi, but I think they'll see the humour and the irony- lots of Yiddish words are used colloquially by Sephardi-speaking Jews)

But seriously....I don't think the Diaspora Jews could be regarded as any "worse" at Hebrew than the ones living in the Middle East. Languages always change, and are always influenced by surrounding or other languages, regardless of their placement in the world. Do you happen to know when vowel points started to be used in the Hebrew language?

[jaihare]

Do you happen to know when vowel points started to be used in the Hebrew language?
There were several systems of vowel markings towards the end of the first millennium CE. We adopted and use the Tiberian system of the Massoretes. This dates to around the year 900 or a little earlier, if I remember correctly. The text of the Bible that is inspired specifically is the consonantal text. The vowel sounds are the tradition of the sages.

Jason

[Qalevra]

There were several systems of vowel markings towards the end of the first millennium CE. We adopted and use the Tiberian system of the Massoretes. This dates to around the year 900 or a little earlier, if I remember correctly. The text of the Bible that is inspired specifically is the consonantal text. The vowel sounds are the tradition of the sages.

Jason

That is my understanding too, except I remember it dating a little earlier; perhaps 8th century CE, though I've read some commentaries that contend the 6th century.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Here is a good link to look at: http://biblescripture.net/Hebrew.html