A poll for all and only Chrtians and Messianics

[ShirChadash]

Do you believe that Jews must accept Jsus (profess "belief" in him) as messiah/chr*st/god, or any variation thereof, in order to be saved and/or in right relationship with G-d? Lets keep this one simple -- yes or no...?

[Kris10leigh]

no

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Do you believe that Jews must accept Jsus (profess "belief" in him) as messiah/chr*st/god, or any variation thereof, in order to be saved and/or in right relationship with G-d? Lets keep this one simple -- yes or no...? There is no, yes or no answer to your question. Because God can make an exception. But your flirting with danger. Even Christian prophecy warns of false teachings in the Christian community. Like I have said before there is hanky panky on both sides of the fence. The truth is that you have dismissed it as a scriptural truth. I see errors on both sides. You have let the lies and errors blind you from the truth. God speaks of a New Covenant that is not like the Old Covenant. Study the time prophecies very carefully.

[johnd]

Yes.

The offer is still good for both.

[ChavaK]

There is no, yes or no answer to your question. Because God can make an exception. But your flirting with danger. Even Christian prophecy warns of false teachings in the Christian community. Like I have said before there is hanky panky on both sides of the fence. The truth is that you have dismissed it as a scriptural truth. I see errors on both sides. You have let the lies and errors blind you from the truth. God speaks of a New Covenant that is not like the Old Covenant. Study the time prophecies very carefully.
So much for keeping it simple, Shir.
So, MTAA, yes or no? Seems like by reading between the lines
here you are saying "yes".....but I do not want to presume to
put words in your mouth.

[HalcyonFire]

Do you believe that Jews must accept Jsus (profess "belief" in him) as messiah/chr*st/god, or any variation thereof, in order to be saved and/or in right relationship with G-d? Lets keep this one simple -- yes or no...?
it's not that simple, but as per modern christian traditional take you would, as per reality? I dont' think so.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

So much for keeping it simple, Shir.
So, MTAA, yes or no? Seems like by reading between the lines
here you are saying "yes".....but I do not want to presume to
put words in your mouth. As you know scripture speaks of a coming change. Absolutely everyone agrees to that, even the Muslims. And so it is not a matter of if, but when. Just because you can find error in the Christian community, it does not mean that Yahshua is not the Messiah. You have been taught that Yahshua is a false Messiah because he did not fulfill the prophecies. I have looked at the Orthodox proof, and find that the prophecies of the first and second coming are mixed together. You need to understand that all men are fallible, especially when it comes to scripture. If a Christian or Orthodox is presented with a lop sided view of things, then things are bound to go amiss. No matter who a person is, Orthodox or Christian, it is your responsibility to make sure that you are being taught the truth, and not somebody else. If it just so happens that A Christian or Orthodox is playing on the wrong team, then it may not go well for them. I hope everyone takes this to heart and mind.

[Steve Petersen]

No.

[ShirChadash]

So much for keeping it simple, Shir.
So, MTAA, yes or no? Seems like by reading between the lines
here you are saying "yes".....but I do not want to presume to
put words in your mouth.
Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan! lol, can't do nuthin' right, can we Chava?^_^

Let's make it even simpler: Do Jews need to believe in Jsus. For anything. In any way. Period. ?

LOL
Maybe that will be simple enough.

[ChavaK]

As you know scripture speaks of a coming change. Absolutely everyone agrees to that, even the Muslims. And so it is not a matter of if, but when. Just because you can find error in the Christian community, it does not mean that Yahshua is not the Messiah. You have been taught that Yahshua is a false Messiah because he did not fulfill the prophecies. I have looked at the Orthodox proof, and find that the prophecies of the first and second coming are mixed together. You need to understand that all men are fallible, especially when it comes to scripture. If a Christian or Orthodox is presented with a lop sided view of things, then things are bound to go amiss. No matter who a person is, Orthodox or Christian, it is your responsibility to make sure that you are being taught the truth, and not somebody else. If it just so happens that A Christian or Orthodox is playing on the wrong team, then it may not go well for them. I hope everyone takes this to heart and mind.

Oy, I give up.....I did not realize this was a thread for proslytizing.
My mistake.

Again, so much for a simple answer.....
so I will assume your answer is "yes".

[ChavaK]

Maybe that will be simple enough.


I don't think so......:D

[insaneinthebrain]

Over the years, I've come to 2 conclusions:

1) Jesus didn't spend as much time discussing the afterlife as people like to think.

2) It's not my place to judge anyone else's salvation.

So, I need a "beats me" option. :P

[LittleLambofJesus]

I myself believe JESUS the Christ came to reveal YHWH the Creator. For any non-Christ-ian who does not believe He existed or was sent by YHWH, then I feel they are missing out on His one beautiful final Plan of Him to bring the old "Adam/Eve" back to the garden. As far as if anyone is "saved", it can also be asked "Saved from what"?.

I still remember this answer by an Evangelical to LK and the Reverberation around the world with these 3 words:

http://www.blog.joelx.com/joel-osteen-megachurch-pastor-without-christ/668/

LARRY KING: What if you’re Jewish or Muslim, you don’t accept Christ at all?

JOEL OSTEEN: You know, I’m very careful about saying who would and wouldn’t go to heaven. I don’t know …

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Oy, I give up.....I did not realize this was a thread for proslytizing.
My mistake.

Again, so much for a simple answer.....
so I will assume your answer is "yes". I am not going to put words in Gods mouth. This is the truth. The Messiah will have to be acknowledged as Gods salvation. Exception are not impossible, but not likely. Your skating on thin ice.

[ShirChadash]

Over the years, I've come to 2 conclusions:

1) Jesus didn't spend as much time discussing the afterlife as people like to think.

2) It's not my place to judge anyone else's salvation.

So, I need a "beats me" option. :P
:D Okay, I will count that as one "beats me" :)

[ChavaK]

I am not going to put words in Gods mouth. This is the truth. The Messiah will have to be acknowledged as Gods salvation. Exception are not impossible, but not likely. Your skating on thin ice.

Ah, finally an answer!
Was that so hard? ;)

[zaksmummy]

Romans 14v4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master they
stand or fall.

Although this verse is slightly out of context - its about eating and drinking, the principle as far as I can see stands.

HaShem is the Master, we are the servants - do we know all his business? I think not.

[ShirChadash]

Hm, I think not many chr*tians are answering the question, since most replies seem to be from messianics (?) Maybe I should post it somewhere else where more eyes will see it...

[Alive4Evermore]

I'm a Christian, a Wesleyan, so I'll answer. Honestly, I'm really not in any position to decide who will go to Heaven or to hell. I just don't know. I do know that Jesus said He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and that no one comes to God the Father except through Him. That's what I believe, but God is the ultimate judge of someones' entry into Heaven. He will decide on the Day of Judgment. But I pray that everyone, Jew and Gentile alike, will come to the saving grace that is only given through Christ Jesus. God offers salvation to all people, no matter who that person is or what that person has done (Romans 1:16-17).


In His Presence,
Alive4Evermore

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hm, I think not many chr*tians are answering the question, since most replies seem to be from messianics (?) Maybe I should post it somewhere else where more eyes will see it...The GT board is pretty active :D

http://christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=80

[ShirChadash]

Hi, Alive 4ever --But I pray that everyone, Jew and Gentile alike, will come to the saving grace that is only given through Christ Jesus. God offers salvation to all people, no matter who that person is or what that person has done (Romans 1:16-17).
I assume that this is a "yes"?

[Alive4Evermore]

Hi, Alive 4ever --
I assume that this is a "yes"?

Perhaps, but like I said, I don't know who will be saved and who won't be.

[cyberlizard]

No - here's why


Abraham believed God, and this act of believing that God was able was counted for him as righteousness.

it is faith that makes a person right before God, as it says, 'the righteous will live by faith.'

unless the words become alive in your heart and you live them out, then the words will only bring guilt and condemnation (until such a time as you choose to repent from the heart.)

Steve

[ShirChadash]

No - here's why


Abraham believed God, and this act of believing that God was able was counted for him as righteousness.

it is faith that makes a person right before God, as it says, 'the righteous will live by faith.'

so just to be clear -- you are saying that "faith" need not be in Jsus in any manner -- as "messiah", as "savior" and/or as "god" in order for Jews to be in right relationship with HaShem. Is this your position?

[cyberlizard]

this is a poll not a debate - set up a new thread for this question.

Steve

[LittleLambofJesus]

this is a poll not a debate - set up a new thread for this question.

SteveWhy didn't you put an option for either "don't know" or "don't care"? :) Jews and Muslims are quite happy and content in their own religions just as we are in JESUS.

[ShirChadash]

this is a poll not a debate - set up a new thread for this question.

Steve
LOL I am asking you to clarify your answer. If you didn't want to give clarification, you can just vote without posting. As it is, since I wrote the OP and the poll, I think *I* can ask you to clarify your position on this, my own thread :D .

As *this* is the question I put forth in my OP to this poll:

Do you believe that Jews must accept Jsus (profess "belief" in him) as messiah/chr*st/god, or any variation thereof, in order to be saved and/or in right relationship with G-d? Lets keep this one simple -- yes or no...?

it is perfectly reasonable to ask you the following clarification of your position:
so just to be clear -- you are saying that "faith" need not be in Jsus in any manner -- as "messiah", as "savior" and/or as "god" in order for Jews to be in right relationship with HaShem. Is this your position?
based upon your posted reply of:

No - here's why


Abraham believed God, and this act of believing that God was able was counted for him as righteousness.

it is faith that makes a person right before God, as it says, 'the righteous will live by faith.'

[ShirChadash]

Why didn't you put an option for either "don't know" or "don't care"? :) Jews and Muslims are quite happy and content in their own religions just as we are in JESUS.
;) Shalom, LLoj.

It's not a "don't care" question. By the very nature of the question, there is a yes or no, only, answer. Individuals as well as "denominations" and sects of chr*tianity, have opinions on this, either to the affirmative or the negative. The question is MUST Jews. Must Jews, in order to be in right-relationship or "saved", as most Chr*tians would say? If you have an opinion, please select it, if you do not have an opinion, then no need to vote. I didn't put a "don't know" option because the fact is that normative chr*tianity does have an opinion on this, though the opinions do vary among the branches of the religion :) .

[ShirChadash]

The GT board is pretty active :D

http://christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=80

:) okay I posted a thread there asking for people to come vote on the poll
Thanks for the suggestion, LLoj.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47726839#post47726839

[Lisa0315]

I wish there was a third option for "I don't know".

Lisa

[ShirChadash]

Hm -- perhaps, should I ask instead, "what does your church/denomination/sect/faith group teach..." ?

[Lisa0315]

Hm -- perhaps, should I ask instead, "what does your church/denomination/sect/faith group teach... ?

They don't really say that much about the Jews. However, I am pretty sure that the Baptist denomination teaches that everyone must be saved by belief on Jesus Christ. The exceptions would be small children, mentally handicapped, or those who have never heard the gospel.

Lisa

[Steve Petersen]

They don't really say that much about the Jews. However, I am pretty sure that the Baptist denomination teaches that everyone must be saved by belief on Jesus Christ. The exceptions would be small children, mentally handicapped, or those who have never heard the gospel.

Lisa

So if you really want to be saved, better to die young or be born mentally handicapped.

Lastly, if we really want people to be saved, wouldn't it be better NOT to preach the gospel, since there is a chance they might not buy it?

[LittleLambofJesus]

So if you really want to be saved, better to die young or be born mentally handicapped.

Lastly, if we really want people to be saved, wouldn't it be better NOT to preach the gospel, since there is a chance they might not buy it?Hi there. I would add that I doubt if there are any Jews, Muslims or other religions that haven't actually heard some form of the Gospel of the Bible especially in this day and age with mass printing, internet, TV, satellite etc.

John 9:39 And said the Jesus "into judgement I, into the world, this, came. That the ones no beholding may be beholding, and the ones beholding, blind may be becoming".
41 Said to them the Jesus "if blind ye were, not ever ye had sin. Now yet, ye are saying that 'we are beholding', the sin of ye is remaining".

[Hentenza]

Do you believe that Jews must accept Jsus (profess "belief" in him) as messiah/chr*st/god, or any variation thereof, in order to be saved and/or in right relationship with G-d? Lets keep this one simple -- yes or no...?

John 14:6-7
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

John 14:6-7
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Jesus [Yahshua] is not saying that he is the Father, but the image of the Father. He is Peniel.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jesus [Yahshua] is not saying that he is the Father, but the image of the Father. He is Peniel.:)

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the God of the Age, this, hath-blinded the minds of the faithless into the no to shine forth to-them the enlightening of the Good-News of the glory of the Christ, who is an image of the God/YHWH

[Hentenza]

Jesus [Yahshua] is not saying that he is the Father, but the image of the Father. He is Peniel.

Different argument.;)

[Kris10leigh]

Hm -- perhaps, should I ask instead, "what does your church/denomination/sect/faith group teach... ?

The Methodist church I attend believes that all must come through Jesus to be saved. I think the majority of people in my church probably believe this, but it is not unusual to find someone who does not.

And to reitterate what I said in my earlier post, I do not believe this.

[sunlover1]

Do you believe that Jews must accept Jsus (profess "belief" in him) as messiah/chr*st/god, or any variation thereof, in order to be saved and/or in right relationship with G-d? Lets keep this one simple -- yes or no...?
no

[New_Wineskin]

quote
Do you believe that Jews must accept Jsus (profess "belief" in him) as messiah/chr*st/god, or any variation thereof, in order to be saved and/or in right relationship with G-d? Lets keep this one simple -- yes or no...?


Keeping to "yes" or "no" makes it confusing and not simple .

However ... no .

[ShirChadash]

Keeping to "yes" or "no" makes it confusing and not simple .
how so?

I am not asking anyone to judge any individual, btw, not at all. I am asking for your general opinion, or at least your church's general opinion.

So... I find the results at this point very interesting -- 7 to 7. So those of you who voted "no" are saying you do not believe Jews need to "believe in" Jsus in any way, for anything? i find that very curious.

[Kris10leigh]

how so?

I am not asking anyone to judge any individual, btw, not at all. I am asking for your general opinion, or at least your church's general opinion.

So... I find the results at this point very interesting -- 7 to 7. So those of you who voted "no" are saying you do not believe Jews need to "believe in" Jsus in any way, for anything? i find that very curious.
I'm finding these results interesting well, and in a positive way. :thumbsup: I hope you do too.

I think perhaps those who DO believe that Jews (and everyone) need to believe in Jesus are just more vocal.

And Shir, I grew up in a Christian home and a Christian community. (Heck, a Christian country (!) ) and I never heard that anyone must believe in Jesus for salvation until I entered college. And when I did hear it, it rocked my world so much I delved into Judaism, wanting to convert because I was so disgusted to be part of such a belief.

Christians don't all believe that.

[ChavaK]

Christians don't all believe that.

Good to hear that! :thumbsup:

Is it perhaps divided up along "pary lines"-
ie the evangelical, fundamentalist more
likely to believe than the more liberal
branches of Christianity?

[Lisa0315]

Good to hear that! :thumbsup:

Is it perhaps divided up along "pary lines"-
ie the evangelical, fundamentalist more
likely to believe than the more liberal
branches of Christianity?

Well, I am probably going to get stoned for this but some Liberals do not really believe in anything or perhaps it could be said there is nothing they don't believe in. Whether it is Pagan Christianity or portraying David and Jonathan as homosexual lovers...they essentially accept any belief whether tradition or Scripture supports it or not. I have even been mocked for using Scripture as a support of my position. So, if some Liberals are telling you that Jews do not have to believe in Jesus, understand that they are probably saying that Muslims, Hindus, and many other faiths do not have to believe as well. It is also some Liberals who call for Israel to give way to the terrorists and do not acknowledge Israel's God-endowed gift of the land.

Now, as to Evangelicals...I would say that they believe that everyone must come to salvation through Jesus Christ. However, I lean to the idea that it is POSSIBLE that Jews are the exception to this. I first wondered about this when the Jewish Professor at Virginia Tech died to save his students.

Scripture does not tell us that the covanant is broken between God and His People. Instead, it tells us that the rest of us have been adopted into the Heavenly Family. Jesus did not do away with the law, but instead condensed the law into two commands that the rest of the law hangs by. Love the Lord thy God with all of your heart and love your neighbor.

As I have studied this after the Virginia Tech incident, I hold that it is possible that Jews only have to believe on the coming of their Messiah even if they do not yet recognize His first advent. Prophecy tells us Christians that there will be a National conversion of the Jews and they will suddenly understand that Jesus was and is their King.

God has not forsaken His people to go after the rest of the world. God allowed His people to be blinded for a time so that the rest of the world could come to belief. I believe until that day of National Conversion, the day when the eyes of God's Chosen are opened, God will judge Jews according to their faith. Some Jews are called to believe now. Some remain blinded for a purpose known only to God.

I sincerely hope that my words are not offensive to Jews here. I am a strong supporter of Israel and God's People. Some of this is what my church would teach (National Conversion) and some of this is what I believe. I believe that accepting Christ may not be necessary for Jews, but I do not know for sure. I have refrained from stating my belief because I do not want to mislead anyone. History shows us that God has not forgotten His people.

Lisa

[Kris10leigh]

I sincerely hope that my words are not offensive to Jews here.
Lisa
Nah, just to liberals.

I haven't the energy to say any more than that I couldn't disagree more.

But I must admit your post was very respectfully written...except to liberals.

[LittleLambofJesus]

It is also Liberals who call for Israel to give way to the terrorists and do not acknowledge Israel's God-endowed gift of the land.

Now, as to Evangelicals...I would say that they believe that everyone must come to salvation through Jesus Christ. However, I lean to the idea that it is POSSIBLE that Jews are the exception to this. I first wondered about this when the Jewish Professor at Virginia Tech died to save his students. Never heard it said like this before. I completely disagree. If Jews are saved without the Faith/Belief that is of Jesus, then anyone is saved. You speak with "forked tongue" me thinks.

[Lisa0315]

Nah, just to liberals.

I haven't the energy to say any more than that I couldn't disagree more.

But I must admit your post was very respectfully written...except to liberals.

Was there a single word that was untrue? Regardless, I thought a warning was in order. I thought that an Orthodox Jew should make an informed decision based on what some Liberal Christians do to Jewish Scripture. If some Liberal Christian says that you do not need Jesus, it should be kept in mind that there is no distinguishment based on God's People or any other religion in the world. One could worship Baal, and according to some Liberals still go to Heaven.

Lisa

[Kris10leigh]

As I have studied this after the Virginia Tech incident, I hold that it is possible that Jews only have to believe on the coming of their Messiah even if they do not yet recognize His first advent. Prophecy tells us Christians that there will be a National conversion of the Jews and they will suddenly understand that Jesus was and is their King.


Lisa
I don't wish to argue, and in retrospect shouldn't have posted what I did as this is a poll. You should share your belief, and I'm glad you did. I just disagree. ;) And being a liberal, I don't fit the description you gave of them at all and found it unfair.

I find the above quote of yours interesting. I've never heard this perspective before.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Was there a single word that was untrue? Regardless, I thought a warning was in order. I thought that an Orthodox Jew should make an informed decision based on what Liberal Christians do to Jewish Scripture. If a Liberal Christian says that you do not need Jesus, it should be kept in mind that there is no distinguishment based on God's People or any other religion in the world. One could worship Baal, and according to Liberals still go to Heaven.

LisaHi Lisa. Have ya ever read Revelation? Remember in Reve 2:14 where the Lord made reference to Balak and Balaam in the OC/OT?
Why would He bring up that unless the whole book is concerning Israel and Judah. The "talking donkey" story is interesting where Balaam smites the donkey 3 times. In some ways I can see a similarity of the event when Peter the Apostle denied Jesus 3 times when He was given up by Judas.

I hope to get the Jews interested in Revelation but for now, just getting them to believe JESUS was their Messiah would be one better.

Reve 2:14 But I am having against of thee a few, that thou are having there ones-holding the teaching of Balaam, who taught to-the Balak to be casting a snare before the sons of Israel, to be eating idol sacrifices and to prostitute.

[Rotherham] Numbers 22:28 And Yahweh opened the mouth of the ass,--and she said unto Balaam--What have I done to thee, that thou hast smitten me, these three times? 29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Surely thou hast been making sport of me,--Would there had been a sword in my hand, for, now, would I have slain thee. 30 Then said the ass unto Balaam--Am not I thine own ass on which thou hast ridden all thy life, until this day? Have I, been wont, to do unto thee, thus? And he said, Nay!

[LJSGM]

Your poll may be inaccurate due to the fact that something like 70% of "christians" do not believe that it's absolutely nessesary to believe in Jesus to obtain salvation, and 100% of these probably hardly read their bibles, or just chose to believe contrary to the scriptures.

[Lisa0315]

I don't wish to argue, and in retrospect shouldn't have posted what I did as this is a poll. You should share your belief, and I'm glad you did. I just disagree. ;) And being a liberal, I don't fit the description you gave of them at all and found it unfair.

I find the above quote of yours interesting. I've never heard this perspective before.

Thank you. I rarely participate in the Liberal vs Conservative arguments. I stick to GA. I will edit my post and say "Some Liberals" rather than broad brush it like that. It was unfair, I agree, and I apologize. Everything I posted though, I have seen posted in WWMC at one point or another, and worse, embraced.

Hold on a bit, and I will find the Scripture regarding the National Conversion as well as the Scripture that teaches that the Jews were purposefully blinded to their Messiah at His first Advent.

Lisa

[ChavaK]

Your poll may be inaccurate due to the fact that something like 70% of "christians" do not believe that it's absolutely nessesary to believe in Jesus to obtain salvation, and 100% of these probably hardly read their bibles, or just chose to believe contrary to the scriptures.

I don't think any of us think the poll is scientifically valid- it's just
a jumping off point to get into a discussion ;)

May we assume you vote "yes"?

[Kris10leigh]

Lisa, thank you. Adding "some" changed the tone for me quite a bit. Liberals get a bum rap just as conservatives do. Shoot, back to this poll, Jews get a bum rap just as Christians do.

Can't we all just get along? ^_^

[Lisa0315]

I have hilited the portions that are pertinent to the doctrine of purposeful blinding of the Jews and the National Conversion.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias F40? (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+11&version=kjv&showtools=0#F40?) how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded F41 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+11&version=kjv&showtools=0#F41) 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, F42 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+11&version=kjv&showtools=0#F42) eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing F43 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+11&version=kjv&showtools=0#F43) of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, F44 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+11&version=kjv&showtools=0#F44) and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness F45 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+11&version=kjv&showtools=0#F45) in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed F46 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+11&version=kjv&showtools=0#F46) God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, F47 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+11&version=kjv&showtools=0#F47) that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded F48 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+11&version=kjv&showtools=0#F48) them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom F49 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+11&version=kjv&showtools=0#F49) be glory for ever. Amen

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hold on a bit, and I will find the Scripture regarding the National Conversion as well as the Scripture that teaches that the Jews were purposefully blinded to their Messiah at His first Advent.
You mean Romans 11?

Romans 11:25 "For not I am willing ye to being ignorant brothers of the mystery, this, that no ye may be beside yourselves wise. That a hardening/pwrwsiV <4457> from part/acriV <891> to-the Israel has become until which the filling of-the Nations may be entering; [Mark 3:5, Ephesians 4:18]
26 And thus all Israel shall be being saved, according as it is written: 'Shall be arriving out of Zion the Deliverer/Rescuer and shall be turning-away un-devoutness from Jacob'".

[Lisa0315]

You mean Romans 11?

Romans 11:25 For not I am willing ye to being ignorant brothers of the mystery, this, that no ye may be beside yourselves wise. That a hardening/pwrwsiV <4457> from part/acriV <891> to-the Israel has become until which the filling of-the Nations may be entering; [Mark 3:5, Ephesians 4:18]
26 And thus all Israel shall be being saved, according as it is written: Shall be arriving out of Zion the Deliverer/Rescuer and shall be turning-away un-devoutness from Jacob.

Yeah...^_^

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yeah...^_^LOL. I noticed after I posted it you had already done that....:D But it is also all in relation to Revelation so it does little good to quote Paul to the Jews UNTIL they see JESUS as the Messiah first. Paul is a "tad" difficult to understand and I spent a lot of time translating Romans.

2Peter 3:16 As also/and in all the letters, speaking in them about these-things; in which are difficult to understand any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rest of Writings, toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>.[# 684 used reve 17:8, 11]

Reve 17:8 The wild beast which you perceived was, and not is, and is being about to be ascending out of the abyss, and into destruction/apwleian <684> it is going away.
11 And the wild beast which was, and not is, and he an-eighth is, and out of the seven is, and into destruction/apwleian <684> is going away.

[ChavaK]

Well, I am probably going to get stoned for this

I hope not! Open discussion should be encouraged here.

. It is also some Liberals who call for Israel to give way to the terrorists and do not acknowledge Israel's God-endowed gift of the land. Yeah I know.....:(
Although to be fair, somewhere I saw on line a petition apparantly signed
by some higher ups in the Evangelical movement supporting a Palestinian
state and the giving of G-d's land to them.


Love the Lord thy God with all of your heart and love your neighbor.
Both of which come from the Torah, of course.


I hold that it is possible that Jews only have to believe on the coming of their Messiah even if they do not yet recognize His first advent. I've never heard this before; quite an interesting viewpoint.



I sincerely hope that my words are not offensive to Jews here.
Not at all.

I am a strong supporter of Israel and God's People. :thumbsup:

[Lisa0315]

LOL. I noticed after I posted it you had already done that....:D But it is also all in relation to Revelation so it does little good to quote Paul to the Jews UNTIL they see JESUS as the Messiah first. Paul is a "tad" difficult to understand and I spent a lot of time translating Romans.

2Peter 3:16 As also/and in all the letters, speaking in them about these-things; in which are difficult to understand any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rest of Writings, toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>.[# 684 used reve 17:8, 11]

Reve 17:8 The wild beast which you perceived was, and not is, and is being about to be ascending out of the abyss, and into destruction/apwleian <684> it is going away.
11 And the wild beast which was, and not is, and he an-eighth is, and out of the seven is, and into destruction/apwleian <684> is going away.

The question I got on this was from a Christian. I realize that quoting Christ or the Apostles will not be very convincing to them right now.

Lisa

[LJSGM]

It says that they have been cutoff through unbelief.

[LittleLambofJesus]

It says that they have been cutoff through unbelief.Yepperz. But look at what he also says to those of the Faith

Romans 11:19 "Thou shall be declaring then 'are broken-off boughs that I may be in-pierced/grated'
20 Ideally to the un-belief/faithless they are broken-off, thou yet to the Faith/Belief have stood. No being high minded, but be fearing.
21 For if the God of the according to nature, boughes, not He spares, neither of thee He shall be sparing".

[Lisa0315]

I hope not! Open discussion should be encouraged here.
Yeah I know.....:(
Although to be fair, somewhere I saw on line a petition apparantly signed
by some higher ups in the Evangelical movement supporting a Palestinian
state and the giving of G-d's land to them.
Both of which come from the Torah, of course.

I've never heard this before; quite an interesting viewpoint.


Not at all.
:thumbsup:

Well, it comes from Christian Scripture which we affectionately call the Faith Hall of Fame. (Hebrews 11) It talks about how different folks from the Hebrew Scripture believed in the promise of the Messiah and by faith they were saved. So, I do not see why that would not apply today as well.

We were taught from an early age to respect God's people. One of my earliest memories was some man asking my mother if she were Jewish. I didn't understand what he said, only that my mother was angry. Apparantly, he was telling some racist joke about Jews. So, when my mother was offended by it, he assumed she was Jewish. I will never forget what she said in reply, "No, but the Lord is."

Lisa

[LittleLambofJesus]

It says that they have been cutoff through unbelief.:thumbsup:

Romans 11:19 "Thou shall be declaring then 'are broken-off boughs that I may be in-pierced/grafted'
20 Ideally to the un-belief/faithless they are broken-off, thou yet to the Faith/Belief have stood. No being high minded, but be fearing.
21 For if the God of the according to nature, boughes, not He spares, neither of thee He shall be sparing".

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I hope not! Open discussion should be encouraged here.
Yeah I know.....:(
Although to be fair, somewhere I saw on line a petition apparantly signed
by some higher ups in the Evangelical movement supporting a Palestinian
state and the giving of G-d's land to them.
Both of which come from the Torah, of course.

I've never heard this before; quite an interesting viewpoint.


Not at all.
:thumbsup: I have always thought of Evangelicals as Catholics in disguise. Not all Christians follow the Catholic Church. I say, through the Palestinians out, you will be better off in the long run. Let the Arabs take care of their brothers.

[Lisa0315]

I have always thought of Evangelicals as Catholics in disguise. Not all Christians follow the Catholic Church. I say, through the Palesinians out, you will be better off in the long run. Let the Arabs take care of their brothers.

We have more in common with Catholics than ever before. Our two groups including the Orthodox are some of the last hold outs on things like abortion and sexual sin. It seems that most of the world have gone the way of feel good religion.

As for the Arabs, I feel sorry for them in a way because they are so deeply deceived. For any group of people to generate such hatred towards another group, it just seems so obviously inspired by evil. How can they not see that? How can the God of Abraham be professed by them and they cannot know that hatred is wrong? It boggles my mind.

Lisa

[LittleLambofJesus]

I have always thought of Evangelicals as Catholics in disguise. Not all Christians follow the Catholic Church. I say, through the Palesinians out, you will be better off in the long run. Let the Arabs take care of their brothers.Catholics view themselves as the New Israel I believe which in some ways is how I view those in Christ.

I just have major disagreement with them on their view of Revelation. :D

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

We have more in common with Catholics than ever before. Our two groups including the Orthodox are some of the last hold outs on things like abortion and sexual sin. It seems that most of the world have gone the way of feel good religion.

As for the Arabs, I feel sorry for them in a way because they are so deeply deceived. For any group of people to generate such hatred towards another group, it just seems so obviously inspired by evil. How can they not see that? How can the God of Abraham be professed by them and they cannot know that hatred is wrong? It boggles my mind.

Lisa Their hearts are filled with evil because Allah is not the God of Abraham. Allah is the Pagan god Alilah from Babylon. And I do not know of any Christian Church that supports abortion or sexual immorality.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Their hearts are filled with evil because Allah is not the God of Abraham. Allah is the Pagan god Alilah from Babylon. And I do not know of any Christian Church that supports abortion or sexual immorality.I didn't think this was a Muslim bashing thread. :sorry:

[Flibbertigibbet]

I voted "yes." Now I'm posting my caveat:

It is my understanding that Israel, God's chosen people, essentially have a mulligan when it comes to belief in Christ. (Qalevra, if you are reading this you will see that my analogies have not much improved with sleep :D).

Upon the return of Jesus, it is my belief that those among the Jewish nation who have not already come to believe in Jesus Christ will have the opportunity to recognize Him at that time, without penalty.

As some of you know, I am a fairly new Christian. As such, my beliefs regarding this may change given more time and study. That is my understanding today, however.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I voted "yes." Now I'm posting my caveat:

It is my understanding that Israel, God's chosen people, essentially have a mulligan when it comes to belief in Christ. (Qalevra, if you are reading this you will see that my analogies have not much improved with sleep :D).

Upon the return of Jesus, it is my belief that those among the Jewish nation who have not already come to believe in Jesus Christ will have the opportunity to recognize Him at that time, without penalty.

As some of you know, I am a fairly new Christian. As such, my beliefs regarding this may change given more time and study. That is my understanding today, however. There will come a change when the two witnesses come. They are the two olive branches.

[Lisa0315]

Their hearts are filled with evil because Allah is not the God of Abraham. Allah is the Pagan god Alilah from Babylon. And I do not know of any Christian Church that supports abortion or sexual immorality.

I am quite ignorant on the Muslim religion.

There are churches that call themselves Christian that certainly support pro-choice and sexual immorality. All you have to do is look through the threads here and you will see.

Lisa

[LittleLambofJesus]

I voted "yes." Now I'm posting my caveat:

It is my understanding that Israel, God's chosen people, essentially have a mulligan when it comes to belief in Christ. (Qalevra, if you are reading this you will see that my analogies have not much improved with sleep :D).

Upon the return of Jesus, it is my belief that those among the Jewish nation who have not already come to believe in Jesus Christ will have the opportunity to recognize Him at that time, without penalty.

As some of you know, I am a fairly new Christian. As such, my beliefs regarding this may change given more time and study. That is my understanding today, however.I don't think the Jews have a concept of 2 different comings of their Messiah though Paul quotes from 2 different passages of the OT/OC concerning that "coming". I believe this is fulfilled myself. :wave:

2 Thessalonians 1:10 Whenever he shall be coming to be glorified in His saints, and to be marvelled in all the ones believing that was believed the testimony of us upon ye in the Day, that . [Ezekiel 39:12]

Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 Into the stand-fast of ye, the hearts blameless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us in the Parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him [Zech 14:5]

Zech 14:5 And you flee ravine of mountains, that he shall touch ravine of mountains to 'Atsel. And you flee as which you fled from before the earthquake in days of `Uzziyah king of Y@huwdah and He comes, YHWH my Elohiym, all of holy-ones with You. [1 Thess 3:13/Reve 19]

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I am quite ignorant on the Muslim religion.

There are churches that call themselves Christian that certainly support pro-choice and sexual immorality. All you have to do is look through the threads here and you will see.

Lisa There are some liberal nuts who call themselves Christians, but can you name one mainstream Church that supports abortion and immorality.

[Flibbertigibbet]

I don't think the Jews have a concept of 2 different comings of their Messiah though Paul quotes from 2 different passages of the OT/OC concerning that "coming". I believe this is fulfilled myself. :wave:

I didn't mean to imply that the Jews believe that it will be a second coming. Just that He will be recognized on that day, and it will not be counted against the Israelites who did not previously acknowledge Him. Sorry if my post wasn't clear. :)

[LittleLambofJesus]

I didn't mean to imply that the Jews believe that it will be a second coming. Just that He will be recognized on that day, and it will not be counted against the Israelites who did not previously acknowledge Him. Sorry if my post wasn't clear. :)Tis ok Mate. Gotta convince them that Jesus came to them the first time first me thinks.
I would think if the Jews thought JESUS was the Messiah, why didn't He accomplish ALL things within that Generation? Just throwing that out there.

I found this interesting while studying the greek.
One verse uses the word for "resurrecting" [same form of the word in 1 Thess 4] while the other uses the word for "arouse" like out of sleep. I am studying on this now.

Matt 12:41 `Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074>, this, and they shall be condemning it/her that they repent/reform into the proclamation of Jonah and Lo! more of Jonah here.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 That Himself, the Lord, in a shout-of-command, in voice of chief-messenger, and in trump of God, shall be descending from heaven, and the dead-ones in Christ shall be Ressurecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) First,

Matt 12:42 `A Queen of the south shall be being aroused/egerqhsetai <1453> (5701) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074>, this, and shall be condemning it/her. That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and lo, more of Solomon here!

[Lisa0315]

Episcopalians with a worldwide congregation of 2.5 million ordain openly gay priests and bishops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Church_in_the_United_States_of_America

In 2000 the Convention affirmed "the variety of human relationships in and outside of marriage" and acknowledged "disagreement over the Church's traditional teaching on human sexuality."[99] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Church_in_the_United_States_of_America#cite_note-98)

[Lisa0315]

PRO-CHOICE SECTS
While historic Christianity has always been clear about children being gifts from God and abortion being a sinful rejection of the divinely given little ones, there are certain denominations based in the United States that, in recent decades, claim to be prayerfully pro-choice. The Episcopal Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Presby-terian Church (USA), the United Methodist Church, the United Church of Christ, and a few others make up this quite small fraternity of pro-choice denominations on the huge campus of world Christianity.

http://www.nrlc.org/news/1999/NRL199/stalls.html

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Episcopalians with a worldwide congregation of 2.5 million ordain openly gay priests and bishops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Church_in_the_United_States_of_America

In 2000 the Convention affirmed "the variety of human relationships in and outside of marriage" and acknowledged "disagreement over the Church's traditional teaching on human sexuality."[99] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Church_in_the_United_States_of_America#cite_note-98) E pis co pal ians Are another Catholic offshoot. OK then, let me say this: "You shall know them by their fruits."

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

PRO-CHOICE SECTS
While historic Christianity has always been clear about children being gifts from God and abortion being a sinful rejection of the divinely given little ones, there are certain denominations based in the United States that, in recent decades, claim to be prayerfully pro-choice. The Episcopal Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Presby-terian Church (USA), the United Methodist Church, the United Church of Christ, and a few others make up this quite small fraternity of pro-choice denominations on the huge campus of world Christianity.

http://www.nrlc.org/news/1999/NRL199/stalls.html All of those Churches are offshoots from the Catholic Church. Again: "you shall know them by their fruits."

[Lisa0315]

E pis co pal ians Are another Catholic offshoot. OK then, let me say this: "You shall know them by their fruits."

Well, pretty much everyone except Messianics and Baptists are Catholic offshoots. What is surprising though is how far away a church can go in order to be politically correct. It is a very slippery slope in my opinion.

Now, in saying that, I know gay Christians and I know Pro-Choice Christians. They believe what they believe as deeply as I do. What is worse? Erring on the side of Scripture or erring on the side of love. Honestly, I think one can go to an extreme on either side. Some Conservatives can be so hateful in their defense of doctrine that I can barely recognize Christ in them if at all. (See my signature) Yet, on the other side, they have love but they have a watery doctrine that doesn't offend anyone. Scripture is supposed to be a sword that cuts to the heart and convicts men of their sin. It is not supposed to be Kumbaya Christianity.

All things in moderation is my view. Stick with strong doctrine but deliver it with love. If one cannot give it in love, it is better just to keep quiet.

Lisa

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Well, pretty much everyone except Messianics and Baptists are Catholic offshoots. What is surprising though is how far away a church can go in order to be politically correct. It is a very slippery slope in my opinion.

Now, in saying that, I know gay Christians and I know Pro-Choice Christians. They believe what they believe as deeply as I do. What is worse? Erring on the side of Scripture or erring on the side of love. Honestly, I think one can go to an extreme on either side. Some Conservatives can be so hateful in their defense of doctrine that I can barely recognize Christ in them if at all. (See my signature) Yet, on the other side, they have love but they have a watery doctrine that doesn't offend anyone. Scripture is supposed to be a sword that cuts to the heart and convicts men of their sin. It is not supposed to be Kumbaya Christianity.

All things in moderation is my view. Stick with strong doctrine but deliver it with love. If one cannot give it in love, it is better just to keep quiet.

Lisa This is apex. A line will have to be drawn, and many souls will be lost, because they made a lie their truth.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well, pretty much everyone except Messianics and Baptists are Catholic offshoots. What is surprising though is how far away a church can go in order to be politically correct. It is a very slippery slope in my opinion.

Now, in saying that, I know gay Christians and I know Pro-Choice Christians. They believe what they believe as deeply as I do. What is worse? Erring on the side of Scripture or erring on the side of love. Honestly, I think one can go to an extreme on either side. Some Conservatives can be so hateful in their defense of doctrine that I can barely recognize Christ in them if at all. (See my signature) Yet, on the other side, they have love but they have a watery doctrine that doesn't offend anyone. Scripture is supposed to be a sword that cuts to the heart and convicts men of their sin. It is not supposed to be Kumbaya Christianity.

All things in moderation is my view. Stick with strong doctrine but deliver it with love. If one cannot give it in love, it is better just to keep quiet.

LisaI assume that is from Hebrew 4?

Hebrew 4:12 For living, the Word of YHWH, and and in-working/energhV <1756> and keener over every knife/sword/macairan <3162> two-mouthed, and penetrating to parting of soul and of spirit joints besides and marrows and judge of feelings and of in-minds/thoughts of heart

Luke 21:24 "And they shall be falling by a-mouth/stomati <4750> of a-Sword/macairaV <3162>, and they shall be being led into captivity into all the Nations.

[Lisa0315]

I assume that is from Hebrew 4?

Hebrew 4:12 For living, the Word of YHWH, and and in-working/energhV <1756> and keener over every knife/sword/macairan <3162> two-mouthed, and penetrating to parting of soul and of spirit joints besides and marrows and judge of feelings and of in-minds/thoughts of heart

Luke 21:24 "And they shall be falling by a-mouth/stomati <4750> of a-Sword/macairaV <3162>, and they shall be being led into captivity into all the Nations.

If you say so...I was spoon fed Scripture and could quote it before I could read it. Now, it is more a heart thing in which I may have to scramble to find which exact Scripture states the idea, doctrine, or whatever, but I know that it is there. It has become living water to me.

Lisa

[LittleLambofJesus]

If you say so...I was spoon fed Scripture and could quote it before I could read it. Now, it is more a heart thing in which I may have to scramble to find which exact Scripture states the idea, doctrine, or whatever, but I know that it is there. It has become living water to me.

LisaThat is what JESUS provides those who come to Him. This is why I can read the Bible as fulfilled for "me" as I already drink from Him. Quick, give me a glass!!!! :)

John 7:37 In yet the last day, the great, of the feast, stood the Jesus and cries-out, saying, "If-ever any-one may be thirsting/diya <1372> (5725), let him be coming toward Me and be drinking"; [Isaiah 43:19/Revelation 21:6]

Matthew 5:6 "Happy the ones-hungering and thirsting the righteousness, that they shall be being gorged".

Reve 21:6 And He said to me:" it-has-become. I Am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.
I, to the one thirsting, shall be giving out of the spring of the Water of the Life gratuitously". [John 7:37/Reve 22:17]

[Kris10leigh]

As such, my beliefs regarding this may change given more time and study. That is my understanding today, however.
That's my disclaimer, and I have been a Christian my entire life! ^_^

[Lisa0315]

That's my disclaimer, and I have been a Christian my entire life! ^_^

Yeah, and would we all have had that kind of humility down through the years, there might not have been a split in the church. :thumbsup:

Lisa

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yeah, and would we all have had that kind of humility down through the years, there might not have been a split in the church. :thumbsup:

LisaPesky "wolves" :)

Jude 1:4 for there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious, the grace of our God perverting to lasciviousness, and our only Master, God, and Lord--Jesus Christ--denying/arnou-menoi <720> (5740).,

Reve 5:8 And when it took the scrollet, the four living ones and the twenty four elders fall before the arniou <721> having each a lyre, and bowls. golden, being-replete of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7245442

[New_Wineskin]

quote
how so?

I am not asking anyone to judge any individual, btw, not at all. I am asking for your general opinion, or at least your church's general opinion.

So... I find the results at this point very interesting -- 7 to 7. So those of you who voted &quot;no&quot; are saying you do not believe Jews need to &quot;believe in&quot; Jsus in any way, for anything? i find that very curious.

The OP asked to keep it simple - only "yes" or "no" . I will wait for the follow-uo thread .

[ShirChadash]

quote
how so?

I am not asking anyone to judge any individual, btw, not at all. I am asking for your general opinion, or at least your church's general opinion.

So... I find the results at this point very interesting -- 7 to 7. So those of you who voted &quot;no&quot; are saying you do not believe Jews need to &quot;believe in&quot; Jsus in any way, for anything? i find that very curious.

The OP asked to keep it simple - only "yes" or "no" . I will wait for the follow-uo thread .
LOL I am the OPer.

Yes and No cuts out the, "well, maybe sorta this and well there's always that" crap, IMO, and is the simplest it can get. Does a Jew need Jsus for anything at all? Pretty simple question. If you care to expound on your answer, you can do so on the thread. It's funny, people have unspoken rules about polls here, the likes of which I have never encountered anywhere else. :o

I don't get how Yes and No are not simple answers to a pretty straightforward question. So I ask here, on the poll I created, as here is where the issue lies.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Btw, isn't it the Jew's view that their future Messiah will accomplish ALL things at one time when He comes? At least this is the impression I get and one reason the Jew's do not believe Jesus was their Messiah as Christianity and Islam does. Thanks and Shalom. :wave:

[HalcyonFire]

Islam doesn't see Jesus as a messiah... (not that I've heard anyway)

[Kris10leigh]

Islam doesn't see Jesus as a messiah... (not that I've heard anyway)
A prophet, but not a messiah.

And Shir, you bring up a good point. You asked if Jews need Jesus for ANYTHING. Is he a complete non-issue? I think some are not sure if He even existed. But He is not even considered a prophet in Judaism, right?

[LittleLambofJesus]

A prophet, but not a messiah.

And Shir, you bring up a good point. You asked if Jews need Jesus for ANYTHING. Is he a complete non-issue? I think some are not sure if He even existed. But He is not even considered a prophet in Judaism, right?Hi. Did anyone happen to notice this article about some ancient tablets being found?
I realize the Jew's have no concept of their Messiah dying, resurrecting and coming back AGAIN and I can understand that. This was an interesting article though.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7257667&page=2

Ancient Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection
JERUSALEM — A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.

[ShirChadash]

But He is not even considered a prophet in Judaism, right?
correct.

[Yarddog]

Do you believe that Jews must accept Jsus (profess "belief" in him) as messiah/chr*st/god, or any variation thereof, in order to be saved and/or in right relationship with G-d? Lets keep this one simple -- yes or no...?
Hello,
I believe that if someone truely loves the God of Abraham and Moses and trust in his love, that he will find a way.

Yarddog

[Lisa0315]

Hello,
I believe that if someone truely loves the God of Abraham and Moses and trust in his love, that he will find a way.

Yarddog

I have to agree. Jesus said that He and the Father are One, so in effect, if one believes on the God of Abraham, they are not rejecting Jesus Christ. It worries me to say that though in case I am wrong. I just do not want anyone to say that it does not matter. I think that one should search prophecy and pray to God to reveal the secret things to them. God always provides wisdom to any who ask for it and are willing to commit to the task given to them to attain it.

Lisa

[ShirChadash]

Hello,
I believe that if someone truely loves the God of Abraham and Moses and trust in his love, that he will find a way.

Yarddog
? could you expound a little, please? Who will find a way -- G-d or the person? And A WAY to what (which is dependent on the first answer) -- G-d will find A WAY to convince the person of Jsus? Or the person will find A WAY to G-d?

Just curious which you were stating.

[LittleLambofJesus]

I have to agree. Jesus said that He and the Father are One, so in effect, if one believes on the God of Abraham, they are not rejecting Jesus Christ. It worries me to say that though in case I am wrong. I just do not want anyone to say that it does not matter. I think that one should search prophecy and pray to God to reveal the secret things to them. God always provides wisdom to any who ask for it and are willing to commit to the task given to them to attain it.

LisaHi Lisa. The Jews have searched the Prophecies and do pray to HaShem but they do not see Jesus in them.
When an atheist ask me why Christians believe in God, [a thread on that is at the link below] I tell them it is because we believe in the One that YHWH the Creator sent to reveal Himself, Jesus the Christ, so a Christian is one that believes it is thru Jesus we come so we can see and knowYHWH the Father. Thoughts?

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7257874

[Lisa0315]

Hi Lisa. The Jews have searched the Prophecies and do pray to HaShem but they do not see Jesus in them.
When an atheist ask me why Christians believe in God, [a thread on that is at the link below] I tell them it is because we believe in the One that YHWH the Creator sent to reveal Himself, Jesus the Christ, so a Christian is one that believes it is thru Jesus we come so we can see and knowYHWH the Father. Thoughts?

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7257874

I do not understand most of your posts. Sorry, but I don't know how to respond. Most of the time, I cannot tell what you believe. It always seems that you are pro-Muslim, pro-Jew, and Anti-Catholic. To say that Jews do not see Jesus in the prophecies is to say that the early church believed a lie since they were all Jewish. Plus, this forum is dedicated to Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah and to Jews who do not believe that. :confused:

Lisa

[ChavaK]

Plus, this forum is dedicated to Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah. :confused:

Lisa

Actually, all of the Jewish posters here are not messianic...
:wave:

[Lisa0315]

Actually, all of the Jewish posters here are not messianic...
:wave:

Oops! :blush: Edited my post.

[LittleLambofJesus]

I do not understand most of your posts. Sorry, but I don't know how to respond. Most of the time, I cannot tell what you believe. It always seems that you are pro-Muslim, pro-Jew, and Anti-Catholic. To say that Jews do not see Jesus in the prophecies is to say that the early church believed a lie since they were all Jewish. Plus, this forum is dedicated to Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah and to Jews who do not believe that. :confused:

Lisa:confused: I am just Pro Jesus. Anyone that does not believe that Jesus is the Way, Truth, and Life is essentially an "atheist" in my view, including Jews and Muslims even though they believe in the God of Abraham. But they are entitled to their beliefs of the Creator of the Bible and I hold nothing against them for that. For me, the Whole Bible is fulfilled thru Jesus. Peace. :wave:

Isaiah 43:19 "Behold! Doing a new thing; now she is sprouting; not ye are knowing her? Indeed I am placing in wilderness a Way, in desolation streams/rivers".

John 7:37 In yet the last day, the great, of the feast, stood the Jesus and cries-out, saying, "If-ever any-one may be thirsting, let him be coming toward Me and be drinking";

[I]Reve 21:6 And He said to me:" it-has-become. I Am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.
I, to the one thirsting, shall be giving out of the spring of the Water of the Life gratuitously". [John 7:37/Reve 22:17]

[ShirChadash]

:confused: I am just Pro Jesus. Anyone that does not believe that Jesus is the Way, Truth, and Life is essentially an "atheist" in my view, including Jews and Muslims even though they believe in the God of Abraham
that's a very odd assertion LLoj. One can not, by the nature of the word, be an a-THEIST and believe in G-d, or any deity. :confused:

[Kris10leigh]

Anyone that does not believe that Jesus is the Way, Truth, and Life is essentially an "atheist" in my view, ...

:wave: Guess that makes me atheist then...along with 10 other posters so far who have taken this poll.

Just your opinion though, as you said. ;)

[LittleLambofJesus]

that's a very odd assertion LLoj. One can not, by the nature of the word, be an a-THEIST and believe in G-d, or any deity. :confused:I thought that would raise eyebrows ^_^

[ShirChadash]

I thought that would raise eyebrows ^_^
welllll it doesn't really make sense, I'll say that LOL.

[HalcyonFire]

right. LLOJ (normally I agree with you)... do you think that just because they do not see the fulfilment of the promise made to THEM that they all of a sudden are not worshiping the one true God who MADE the promise?

[jamescarvin]

This was not a simple yes/no question. Sometimes the explanations of answers help shape future questions. The question was also asked of Christians and Messianics, which leaves me wondering about Christians and why so many would have said no. I thought that the Messianics and the Christians believed in the Bible. I would like to hear the explanations of those who said no.

I said yes. But I also believe that Jesus preaches to the dead. So I don't think the profession has to take place in this life. He said that if you blaspheme the Son of Man that your sin would be forgiven you. But if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, your sin would not be forgiven you.

That there is salvation in none other than Jesus Christ is true if the Bible is true. No? That there is no other name by which anyone can be saved is true. That if you believe that Jesus Christ is Lord you will be saved is true. That Jesus is the way the truth and the life is true. That no man comes to the Father except by him is true.

I pray that it is also true that all of these statements can be true and yet a person disbelieve during their lifetime, and then accept the truth after they die.

That Christ preaches the gospel to those in the tombs explains why many rose from the tombs after he rose from the dead. He preached to the dead. This may not have been limited to righteous Jews. The text doesn't say that it was only Jews who arose.

Anyones' personal sense of justice and mercy goes against the grain of thinking that if you do not have a particular understanding that you are to be damned to hell. It seems very arbitrary and most unjust (to put it lightly), especially to those who have never heard the Gospel, or to the even greater number of people who have either heard bad versions of the Gospel, or heard it through the mouths of people who were clearly hypocrates.

Add to that the many people, (of many religions including Jewish) who have been trained from their youth not only to disbelive Christians, but to hate them, suspect them, denounce them, or whatever. If one expects the Spirit of Truth to cut through all of this nonsense, it can surely be done. And among those who love truth I'm sure this happens. The Spirit draws him. (Although with respect to this Jesus said "if I be lifted up" and while he may have been lifted up on the cross, he is not lifted up as a light when his name is muddied by hypocrasy and hatred). Lifetimes are not all that long. And I'm not inclined to say that so many who fail to find him are all going to hell.

The notion of hell itself is also very counter-intuitive no matter what the reason for its punishments if hell means infinite suffering for eternity without any possibility of repentance and clemency. I will leave judgment to HaShem and say whether it is just or not, I don't know despite how it seems. I can never even start to know the mind of HaShem. But I surely find it counter-intuitive that my own personal sense of justice would be more merciful than his.

And yet I believe him when he said that he came to fill every letter of the law. That includes the verses which say that belief in him is required for salvation. Hence, ok, maybe after death. Hashem, have mercy on us all!

[ShirChadash]

This was not a simple yes/no question. Sometimes the explanations of answers help shape future questions.
Hello James...

I see that yes and no do keep it simple, because the expounding and what not ends up being nothing but a spiritualizing-away of objections and what-not, which I hoped not to get into on this thread (but don't mind if you want to get into it... I just didn't want to encourage 60 "maybe" or "sorta" or "not necessarily" answers). My hope is that individuals will choose a yes or no answer which can -- at its base- describe the most foundational position they hold with regard to salvation and the Jews. If there's a "no-but" answer, it is a yes answer effectively.

[superwimp]

Hi,

I voted no. I believe God is saving people of all faiths and creeds from sin (which is what the apostles meant by saved).

[ShirChadash]

Hi,

I voted no. I believe God is saving people of all faiths and creeds from sin (which is what the apostles meant by saved).
interestingly, that is not at all what Judaism knows Messiah will save us from. but that's another rabbit trail... thanks for your vote, superwimp.

[anisavta]

Hi,

I voted no. I believe God is saving people of all faiths and creeds from sin (which is what the apostles meant by saved).
What did the apostles mean by saved IYO?

[superwimp]

What did the apostles mean by saved IYO?

Hello anisavta,

The big thing during the time of the apostles was to receive the holy ghost. When they received the holy ghost they were saved from their sins. That how saved was defined numerous times in the gospels. Peter in the book of Acts during his pentechostal sermon defined it as saved from this ontoward generation. Paul used the term new man in christ.

[LittleLambofJesus]

right. LLOJ (normally I agree with you)... do you think that just because they do not see the fulfilment of the promise made to THEM that they all of a sudden are not worshiping the one true God who MADE the promise?Hi ERM. The problem I see is they do not see ALL of the prophecies fulfilled.

Unless Christianity can prove to the Jews JESUS fulfilled every jot and tittle in the whole bible, how can they believe Jesus was their Messiah?

Also, my view of Hellfire is more similar to Judaism's view in some ways, but then I view that "lake of fire" in revealtion a lot differently than Christianity and Islam does. Thoughts?

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7256884&page=3
Hell: why be afraid of such a place ?

Ezekiel 38:22 "And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. [Revelation 16:21 and 20:9]

Reve 16:21 and hail, great as talent weight is descending out of the heaven up the men and blaspheme the men the God out of the stripes of the hail, that great is the stripe/blow of her, tremendous.

Reve 20:9 And they ascended on the breadth of the land and they surround the camp of the holy-ones and the city, the having been loved. And descended fire out of the heaven and it devoured them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JGGKOjF8FU