Zechariah 11:7-11. Commentary.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Sadducee's
The Sadducee's were members of a Jewish sect founded in the second century BC, possibly as a political party. They ceased to exist sometime after the first century AD. Reference to them is dated to about 167 B.C.

Pharisee's
The name “Pharisee” means “the separated ones.” The Pharisees were monotheistic. They were missionaries, seeking the conversion of Gentiles. The Pharisees opposed Jesus because He refused to accept their teachings of the oral law.

Sanhedrin
The highest Jewish council in the first century. The council had 70 members, not including the high priest that presided over the council.



Zechariah 11:7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock.

8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds. The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."

10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.

11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD.

Thus the Three Shepherds: Sanhedrin, Sadducee's, and Pharisee's.

[kivi]

kivi says: Well, here I am, swimming around, all quiet and peaceful and there, in the mirky distance looks like a greaaaaaat worm, all wiggly and fat. Of course, I know there is a hook in there, its just disguised by that great worm. So, do I take the bait and get into an great arguement and 'set some jerk right'? Or do I remember that the last 20 times I did take the bait and got caught by the hook and ended up feeling like a putz. So, I can pretend that the hook isn't there, even though its been there everytime I have seen that great bait before. Or I can go on my way. What should I do?

[Torah613]

I say, lets go on our way.

Yochanan

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I say, lets go on our way.

kivi says: Well, here I am, swimming around, all quiet and peaceful and there, in the mirky distance looks like a greaaaaaat worm, all wiggly and fat. Of course, I know there is a hook in there, its just disguised by that great worm. So, do I take the bait and get into an great arguement and 'set some jerk right'? Or do I remember that the last 20 times I did take the bait and got caught by the hook and ended up feeling like a putz. So, I can pretend that the hook isn't there, even though its been there everytime I have seen that great bait before. Or I can go on my way. What should I do?






This can of worms is for everyone to see. You don't have to bite, but you may want to study. See all the big juicy worms.:yum::yum::yum:

[LittleLambofJesus]

Zechariah 11:7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock.

8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds. The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."

10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.

11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD.

Thus the Three Shepherds: Sanhedrin, Sadducee's, and Pharisee's.
Hmm interesting. Ya think those could be representing these characters in Revelation? :idea:

Reve 16:13 And I perceived out of the mouth of the Dragon and out of the mouth of the wild-beast and out of the mouth of the false-prophet spirits, three, unclean as frogs.
14 For they are spirits of demons, doing signs which is going out on the kings of the inhabited earth, whole, to be mobilizing/leading them into the battle of the day of the great, of the God, the Almighty.

[kivi]

I say, lets go on our way.

Yochanan

kivi says: Right on:thumbsup:>>>> a little travelin' music, Maestro!

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Hmm interesting. Ya think those could be representing these characters in Revelation? :idea:

Reve 16:13 And I perceived out of the mouth of the Dragon and out of the mouth of the wild-beast and out of the mouth of the false-prophet spirits, three, unclean as frogs.
14 For they are spirits of demons, doing signs which is going out on the kings of the inhabited earth, whole, to be mobilizing/leading them into the battle of the day of the great, of the God, the Almighty. Dragon symbolizes Satan, which means Accuser. Beast symbolizes a nation. False Prophet symbolizes a man. Since leaders are gathered, beast must be plural. That great day is when they gather against the Mount of the assembly Zion, A place named for the Lord Almighty. The prophecy of the Three Shepherds is past us. But in the future the Orthodox will kill the prophets that are sent to them. PS there are two Dragons; the Dragon of the Earth [or land] and the Dragon of the Sea [or Ocean.]

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

kivi says: Right on:thumbsup:>>>> a little travelin' music, Maestro! If you don't like the manly things that I talk about, then you can always talk to the women here about the things they like to talk about.

[jaihare]

The 'three shepherds' refer to those who were cut off during the time of Jehu, king of Judah. Read through 2 Kings 10-11 to see the record of Ahaziah's descendants being slaughtered at the Bet Eked of the Shepherds (10:12-14) so that there was no survivor left to further Ahaziah's line. He was an evil shepherd who was cut off.

The second was king Ahab of Judah, whose line was cut off in 2 Kings 10:17, leaving no survivor to Ahab.

The third line cut off was that of David (yes! truly!) who were all killed by Athaliah, the mother of Ahaziah when she figured out that her son had been killed. Everyone in David's line was killed except for Joash, who became the king of Judah at the age of seven. This story is found in 2 Kings 11.

HaShem brought about their destruction because of his disgust at their idolatry and their failure to lead the people. However, he did not bring David's line to a complete stop. He allowed one king to survive so as to keep his promise to David and to Solomon.

A little history might help you a bit.

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

The 'three shepherds' refer to those who were cut off during the time of Jehu, king of Judah. Read through 2 Kings 10-11 to see the record of Ahaziah's descendants being slaughtered at the Bet Eked of the Shepherds (10:12-14) so that there was no survivor left to further Ahaziah's line. He was an evil shepherd who was cut off.

The second was king Ahab of Judah, whose line was cut off in 2 Kings 10:17, leaving no survivor to Ahab.

The third line cut off was that of David (yes! truly!) who were all killed by Athaliah, the mother of Ahaziah when she figured out that her son had been killed. Everyone in David's line was killed except for Joash, who became the king of Judah at the age of seven. This story is found in 2 Kings 11.

HaShem brought about their destruction because of his disgust at their idolatry and their failure to lead the people. However, he did not bring David's line to a complete stop. He allowed one king to survive so as to keep his promise to David and to Solomon.

A little history might help you a bit.

Jason Your suggestion that the scripture is about those Kings does not fly. Those Kings lived between the 10th and 6th century, and the prophet Zachariah lived in the 5th. Zachariah spoke about the future after himself.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

The Orthodox Jews [Hebrews] have not been able to challenge me with scripture or history. It looks like I have won this debate. :clap: The sad part is that they will not give a second thought to the scripture presented here. :sigh:

[jaihare]

The Orthodox Jews [Hebrews] have not been able to challenge me with scripture or history. It looks like I have won this debate. :clap: The sad part is that they will not give a second thought to the scripture presented here. :sigh:
I spent the day at work and just got home. Way to cheer yourself on. Good for you.

[jaihare]

Your suggestion that the scripture is about those Kings does not fly. Those Kings lived between the 10th and 6th century, and the prophet Zachariah lived in the 5th. Zachariah spoke about the future after himself.
He spoke about the future using the past tense? Not hardly. He wrote that God said "I cut off" ואכחיד and not "I will cut off" והכחדתי. It's in the past tense, and it refers to the past, even from Zechariah's perspective.

[Torah613]

kivi says: Right on:thumbsup:>>>> a little travelin' music, Maestro!

Well, what would you like? Klezmer? Landino cultural music? OOOH, how about TaShma's album "Shine"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71GMrGB1KKo

Yochanan

[Torah613]

The Orthodox Jews [Hebrews] have not been able to challenge me with scripture or history. It looks like I have won this debate. :clap: The sad part is that they will not give a second thought to the scripture presented here. :sigh:

Look who thinks he's important enough for the Jews of this forum to waste time talking to.

Yochanan

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

He spoke about the future using the past tense? Not hardly. He wrote that God said "I cut off" ואכחיד and not "I will cut off" והכחדתי. It's in the past tense, and it refers to the past, even from Zechariah's perspective. Zec 11:9. Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.

[jaihare]

Zec 11:9. Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.
Pardon me for thinking that we were still talking about the cutting off of the three shepherds in verse 8. Additionally, verse 9 is a quote of what HaShem had stated BEFORE. He specifically opened the verse with ואמר va'omar ("and I said") rather than ואמרתי va'amarti ("and I shall say"), which would have placed it in the future. You're just grasping.

Jason

[Torah613]

I think I see what is causing MTAA's confusion on this topic Jason. The problem is, Hebrew is such a complex language that it is very difficult to translate into a very simple language like English--particularly when the people doing the translating aren't that familiar with Hebrew to begin with.

Yochanan

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

He spoke about the future using the past tense? Not hardly. He wrote that God said "I cut off" ואכחיד and not "I will cut off" והכחדתי. It's in the past tense, and it refers to the past, even from Zechariah's perspective. Very well then, let's look at things your way. And so God broke His covenant with Israel and the nations from the time of those kings, and since then no one has any assurance of anything. Does that mean that the Orthodox Jews keep the old broken covenant for traditions sake? I can hardly wait to hear your answer.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Bumping for Answer.

[Hentenza]

Mod Hat On


This thread will be closed and deleted if it degrades to a flame fest. Please respect each other and debate the topic NOT the poster. This will be the only warning.

[kivi]

Well, what would you like? Klezmer? Landino cultural music? OOOH, how about TaShma's album "Shine"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71GMrGB1KKo

Yochanan

kivi says: How about a little 'Chattanooga Cho-Cho' or 'Putting on the Ritz" [I love the Great American Playbook]. Love your 'Shine':thumbsup::thumbsup:

[jaihare]

Very well then, let's look at things your way. And so God broke His covenant with Israel and the nations from the time of those kings, and since then no one has any assurance of anything. Does that mean that the Orthodox Jews keep the old broken covenant for traditions sake? I can hardly wait to hear your answer.
And from your perspective the Pharisees were cut off, though they were never cut off. Interesting.

While I agree that the Sadducees (Tsadokim) were cut off when the Temple was destroyed, then Pharisees continued to thrive. Pharisees were spread throughout the known world in Jewish communities. The war in Israel which caused such devastation and ended Jewish majority residence in the Land for so long was not waged against Jewish communities outside of "Palestine", where the Pharisees were really the strongest.

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

And from your perspective the Pharisees were cut off, though they were never cut off. Interesting.

While I agree that the Sadducees (Tsadokim) were cut off when the Temple was destroyed, then Pharisees continued to thrive. Pharisees were spread throughout the known world in Jewish communities. The war in Israel which caused such devastation and ended Jewish majority residence in the Land for so long was not waged against Jewish communities outside of "Palestine", where the Pharisees were really the strongest.

Jason Even if all of the parties survived, there is still question about the broken Covenant.

[jaihare]

Even if all of the parties survived, there is still question about the broken Covenant.
Why? It was not the covenant with Israel that was broken. It was the covenant "with the peoples" that was broken. Read it again. There is no suggestion in the text that there was a covenant with Israel that was broken.

One thing is for sure, the bond between Israel (the Northern Kingdom) and Judah (the Southern Kingdom) was broken, which was made certain at the invasion of Assyria.

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Why? It was not the covenant with Israel that was broken. It was the covenant "with the peoples" that was broken. Read it again. There is no suggestion in the text that there was a covenant with Israel that was broken.

One thing is for sure, the bond between Israel (the Northern Kingdom) and Judah (the Southern Kingdom) was broken, which was made certain at the invasion of Assyria.

Jason Very well then. The Northern and Southern Kingdoms make up the nation of Israel. So the issue of the broken covenant remains.

[jaihare]

Very well then. The Northern and Southern Kingdoms make up the nation of Israel. So the issue of the broken covenant remains.
No, that's related to the broken staff. The second one, which was called חובלים chovlim.

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

No, that's related to the broken staff. The second one, which was called חובלים chovlim.

Jason
The favor and union is the covenant. No matter how you slice it it comes back to that question.

[jaihare]

The favor and union is the covenant. No matter how you slice it it comes back to that question.
"I shall break my covenant which I made WITH THE PEOPLES." No matter how you slice it, it comes back to the fact that this is not the covenant with the Jews. It is with the nations around Israel (as it is written in the beginning of the chapter that both Lebanon and Bashan [representatives of the various nations around Israel] would become waste).

If this is all you can do, then I am afraid I need to spend my time on more fruitful matters. Your homilies based on your emotions and religious perspective are nothing in terms of what the text really says. So, you are free to believe whatever you want, but the rest of the world sees that you're simply spinning your wheels.

To sum up my position and to be finished with this thread:

(1) If the "three shepherds" refers to Pharisees, etc., then the Pharisees should have been wiped out along with the Sadducees. However that didn't happen, since the Pharisaical authority lay in the Oral Torah and was centered in the Synagogue rather than in the Temple.

(2) The "three shepherds" refers to the three viable lines of kingly authority. The two were completely wiped out (those of the families of Ahab and Ahaziah) and the third was all killed except for one heir (who was SEVEN YEARS OLD when he took the throne since there was no other). The line of kings was broken except for one heir (since HaShem would not break his covenant with David and Solomon).

(3) The "covenant with the peoples" was the invasion of the nations around Israel and their destruction. The breaking of the second staff represents the break between Judah and Israel and the eventual loss of Israel to the world.

My position is in line with history and what actually happened to Israel and Judah. If it continues to spin around here, I'm not interested in going further. Fancies of imagination do not constitute a legitimate hermeneutic principle.

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

"I shall break my covenant which I made WITH THE PEOPLES." No matter how you slice it, it comes back to the fact that this is not the covenant with the Jews. It is with the nations around Israel (as it is written in the beginning of the chapter that both Lebanon and Bashan [representatives of the various nations around Israel] would become waste).

If this is all you can do, then I am afraid I need to spend my time on more fruitful matters. Your homilies based on your emotions and religious perspective are nothing in terms of what the text really says. So, you are free to believe whatever you want, but the rest of the world sees that you're simply spinning your wheels.

To sum up my position and to be finished with this thread:

(1) If the "three shepherds" refers to Pharisees, etc., then the Pharisees should have been wiped out along with the Sadducees. However that didn't happen, since the Pharisaical authority lay in the Oral Torah and was centered in the Synagogue rather than in the Temple.

(2) The "three shepherds" refers to the three viable lines of kingly authority. The two were completely wiped out (those of the families of Ahab and Ahaziah) and the third was all killed except for one heir (who was SEVEN YEARS OLD when he took the throne since there was no other). The line of kings was broken except for one heir (since HaShem would not break his covenant with David and Solomon).

(3) The "covenant with the peoples" was the invasion of the nations around Israel and their destruction. The breaking of the second staff represents the break between Judah and Israel and the eventual loss of Israel to the world.

My position is in line with history and what actually happened to Israel and Judah. If it continues to spin around here, I'm not interested in going further. Fancies of imagination do not constitute a legitimate hermeneutic principle.

Jason If I remember correctly the line of the Pahrisees had to be re-established after the distruction of Israel. So when God speaks about the other nations , then what is He talking about.

[jaihare]

If I remember correctly the line of the Pahrisees had to be re-established after the distruction of Israel. So when God speaks about the other nations , then what is He talking about.
You don't remember correctly, and that question was answered in my last post. Until you (1) understand a bit of Jewish history with regard to these matters and (2) actually read the posts that are offered to you, please do not expect another reply from me. "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself" (Proverbs 26:4, NIV).

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

You don't remember correctly, and that question was answered in my last post. Until you (1) understand a bit of Jewish history with regard to these matters and (2) actually read the posts that are offered to you, please do not expect another reply from me. "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself" (Proverbs26:4, NIV).

Jason Very well then Jason, you have a good evening.

[jaihare]

Very well then Jason, you have a good evening.
Thank you, Michael (which, by the way, is my brother's name :) ). You have a great night yourself. For me, however, it is almost noon. I plan to have a nice day at work, though.

Be well.

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

"I shall break my covenant which I made WITH THE PEOPLES."

Jason

"I shall break my covenant which I made WITH THE PEOPLES."

"I shall break my covenant which I made WITH THE PEOPLES."

"I shall break my covenant which I made WITH THE PEOPLES."

[jaihare]

"I shall break my covenant which I made WITH THE PEOPLES."

"I shall break my covenant which I made WITH THE PEOPLES."

"I shall break my covenant which I made WITH THE PEOPLES."
Where did that come from? I thought we were done with this discussion and had moved on to pleasantries. But, if you want to be silly, then I will respond thus:

"I shall break my covenant which I made WITH THE PEOPLES."

"I shall break my covenant which I made WITH THE PEOPLES."

"I shall break my covenant which I made WITH THE PEOPLES."

Notice that it says "with the PEOPLES" (plural)... NOT "with the JEWS". You're putting the emPHASis on the wrong sylLABle. Who was the covenant with again? Hmmm....

Good night, Michael.

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Where did that come from? I thought we were done with this discussion and had moved on to pleasantries. But, if you want to be silly, then I will respond thus:

"I shall break my covenant which I made WITH THE PEOPLES."

"I shall break my covenant which I made WITH THE PEOPLES."

"I shall break my covenant which I made WITH THE PEOPLES."

Notice that it says "with the PEOPLES" (plural)... NOT "with the JEWS". You're putting the emPHASis on the wrong sylLABle. Who was the covenant with again? Hmmm....

Good night, Michael.

Jason Correct. It is plural. And who did God Make a covenant with?

[jaihare]

Correct. It is plural. And who did God Make a covenant with?
HaShem has many covenants. Any time he establishes a nation, he makes an agreement that they are to continue for an amount of time. No matter what, the nation of Israel is only ONE people group -- עם ישראל (the people of Israel). To say that this is speaking a covenant את כל העמים (with all the peoples) indicates that it is SURELY NOT speaking of Israel.

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Good night Jason.

[jaihare]

Good night Jason.

Thank you. Good night to you as well. (No more surprises.) ;)

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

"I shall break my covenant which I made WITH THE PEOPLES." No matter how you slice it, it comes back to the fact that this is not the covenant with the Jews. It is with the nations around Israel (as it is written in the beginning of the chapter that both Lebanon and Bashan [representatives of the various nations around Israel] would become waste).

If this is all you can do, then I am afraid I need to spend my time on more fruitful matters. Your homilies based on your emotions and religious perspective are nothing in terms of what the text really says. So, you are free to believe whatever you want, but the rest of the world sees that you're simply spinning your wheels.

To sum up my position and to be finished with this thread:

(1) If the "three shepherds" refers to Pharisees, etc., then the Pharisees should have been wiped out along with the Sadducees. However that didn't happen, since the Pharisaical authority lay in the Oral Torah and was centered in the Synagogue rather than in the Temple.

(2) The "three shepherds" refers to the three viable lines of kingly authority. The two were completely wiped out (those of the families of Ahab and Ahaziah) and the third was all killed except for one heir (who was SEVEN YEARS OLD when he took the throne since there was no other). The line of kings was broken except for one heir (since HaShem would not break his covenant with David and Solomon).

(3) The "covenant with the peoples" was the invasion of the nations around Israel and their destruction. The breaking of the second staff represents the break between Judah and Israel and the eventual loss of Israel to the world.

My position is in line with history and what actually happened to Israel and Judah. If it continues to spin around here, I'm not interested in going further. Fancies of imagination do not constitute a legitimate hermeneutic principle.

Jason Jeremiah 31:31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.

[jaihare]

Jeremiah 31:31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.
Amen.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Sadducee's
The Sadducee's were members of a Jewish sect founded in the second century BC, possibly as a political party. They ceased to exist sometime after the first century AD. Reference to them is dated to about 167 B.C.

Pharisee's
The name “Pharisee” means “the separated ones.” The Pharisees were monotheistic. They were missionaries, seeking the conversion of Gentiles. The Pharisees opposed Jesus because He refused to accept their teachings of the oral law.

Sanhedrin
The highest Jewish council in the first century. The council had 70 members, not including the high priest that presided over the council.



Zechariah 11:7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock.

8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds. The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."

10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.

11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD.

Thus the Three Shepherds: Sanhedrin, Sadducee's, and Pharisee's.


Jeremiah 31:31
"The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.

Esther 8:17.
In every province and in every city, wherever the edict of the king went, there was joy and gladness among the Jews, with feasting and celebrating. And many people of other nationalities became Jews because fear of the Jews had seized them.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

surprise

[jaihare]

Sadducee's
The Sadducee's were members of a Jewish sect founded in the second century BC, possibly as a political party. They ceased to exist sometime after the first century AD. Reference to them is dated to about 167 B.C.

Pharisee's
The name “Pharisee” means “the separated ones.” The Pharisees were monotheistic. They were missionaries, seeking the conversion of Gentiles. The Pharisees opposed Jesus because He refused to accept their teachings of the oral law.

Sanhedrin
The highest Jewish council in the first century. The council had 70 members, not including the high priest that presided over the council.

This again? :sleep:

Zechariah 11:7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock.

8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds. The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."

10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.

11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD.

Thus the Three Shepherds: Sanhedrin, Sadducee's, and Pharisee's.

Saying the same thing several times doesn't make it any more true than it was the first time.

Jeremiah 31:31
"The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.
This covenant is referred to throughout the prophets, and it NEVER applies to Gentiles, and it has nothing to do with the idea of breaking a covenant beforehand. This is stating that a covenant would be make at the time of Mashiach just like a covenant was made during the days of Jehoiada the priest.
"Jehoiada then made a covenant between the LORD and the king and people that they would be the LORD's people. He also made a covenant between the king and the people." (2 Kings 11:17, NIV)

When Messiah comes, the covenant between God and Israel will again be strengthened and reconfirmed. This is that "new covenant" and "covenant of peace" that the prophets mentioned over and over.

Esther 8:17.
In every province and in every city, wherever the edict of the king went, there was joy and gladness among the Jews, with feasting and celebrating. And many people of other nationalities became Jews because fear of the Jews had seized them.
This means that they "judaized" -- started to live by the Jewish way -- not that they became Jews. It is the verb להתיהד lehityahed. No one is allowed to convert to Judaism simply because they were afraid of the Jewish people! That's just absurd!

Jason

[kivi]

kivi says: Well, here I am, swimming around, all quiet and peaceful and there, in the mirky distance looks like a greaaaaaat worm, all wiggly and fat. Of course, I know there is a hook in there, its just disguised by that great worm. So, do I take the bait and get into an great arguement and 'set some jerk right'? Or do I remember that the last 20 times I did take the bait and got caught by the hook and ended up feeling like a putz. So, I can pretend that the hook isn't there, even though its been there everytime I have seen that great bait before. Or I can go on my way. What should I do?
__________________
This year, its for the other hand!

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

kivi says: Well, here I am, swimming around, all quiet and peaceful and there, in the mirky distance looks like a greaaaaaat worm, all wiggly and fat. Of course, I know there is a hook in there, its just disguised by that great worm. So, do I take the bait and get into an great arguement and 'set some jerk right'? Or do I remember that the last 20 times I did take the bait and got caught by the hook and ended up feeling like a putz. So, I can pretend that the hook isn't there, even though its been there everytime I have seen that great bait before. Or I can go on my way. What should I do?
__________________
This year, its for the other hand! Come on in, said the spider to the fly.^_^

[jaihare]

So, you think of yourself as a spider wanting to devour other people? Is that what you're saying? My goodness.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

This again? :sleep:


Saying the same thing several times doesn't make it any more true than it was the first time.


This covenant is referred to throughout the prophets, and it NEVER applies to Gentiles, and it has nothing to do with the idea of breaking a covenant beforehand. This is stating that a covenant would be make at the time of Mashiach just like a covenant was made during the days of Jehoiada the priest.
"Jehoiada then made a covenant between the LORD and the king and people that they would be the LORD's people. He also made a covenant between the king and the people." (2 Kings 11:17, NIV)

When Messiah comes, the covenant between God and Israel will again be strengthened and reconfirmed. This is that "new covenant" and "covenant of peace" that the prophets mentioned over and over.


This means that they "judaized" -- started to live by the Jewish way -- not that they became Jews. It is the verb להתיהד lehityahed. No one is allowed to convert to Judaism simply because they were afraid of the Jewish people! That's just absurd!

Jason Psalms 90:4. For a thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night.

Hosea 6
Israel Unrepentant
1 "Come, let us return to the LORD.
He has torn us to pieces
but he will heal us;
he has injured us
but he will bind up our wounds.
2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Exodus 23:9
"Do not oppress an alien; you yourselves know how it feels to be aliens, because you were aliens in Egypt.

Leviticus 18:26
But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things,

Deuteronomy 31:12
Assemble the people—men, women and children, and the aliens living in your towns—so they can listen and learn to fear the LORD your God and follow carefully all the words of this law.

Joshua 8:33
All Israel, aliens and citizens alike, with their elders, officials and judges, were standing on both sides of the ark of the covenant of the LORD, facing those who carried it—the priests, who were Levites. Half of the people stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the LORD had formerly commanded when he gave instructions to bless the people of Israel.

Joshua 8:35
There was not a word of all that Moses had commanded that Joshua did not read to the whole assembly of Israel, including the women and children, and the aliens who lived among them.

[Qalevra]

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/3276/aliensfg9.jpg

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/3276/aliensfg9.jpg Yes. There were aliens among the Hebrews.;)

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

So, you think of yourself as a spider wanting to devour other people? Is that what you're saying? My goodness. Where is your sence of humor Jaihare?

[LittleLambofJesus]

When Messiah comes, the covenant between God and Israel will again be strengthened and reconfirmed. This is that "new covenant" and "covenant of peace" that the prophets mentioned over and over.So what will happen to us "gentile/goyims" when he shows up to ya'll.

I'll just have to stick with JESUS for the time being until your Messiah shows up, then I can switch. Is that ok? :)

Ezekiel 37:26 And I cut to them a Covenant of Peace, covenant of age he shall become with them.
And I give them, and I increase them, and I give them sanctuary/04720 miqdash of Me in midst of them for age.

Luke 19:41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her,
42 saying, "That if thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes".

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

So what will happen to us "gentile/goyims" when he shows up to ya'll.

I'll just have to stick with JESUS for the time being until your Messiah shows up, then I can switch. Is that ok? :)

Ezekiel 37:26 And I cut to them a Covenant of Peace, covenant of age he shall become with them.
And I give them, and I increase them, and I give them sanctuary/04720 miqdash of Me in midst of them for age.

Luke 19:41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her,
42 saying, "That if thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes". The Torah occasionally refers to the Jewish people using the term "goy." Most notably, in Exodus 19:6, God says that the Children of Israel will be "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation," that is, a goy kadosh.

If Jews are different peoples then who are the Hebrews?

[jaihare]

Where is your sence of humor Jaihare?
I have to put it on hold for the moment. If you guys do not understand me when I write clearly and straightforwardly, I should hate to imagine the misunderstandings that might result as a consequence of my jest.

Jason

[jaihare]

The Torah occasionally refers to the Jewish people using the term "goy." Most notably, in Exodus 19:6, God says that the Children of Israel will be "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation," that is, a goy kadosh.

If Jews are different peoples then who are the Hebrews?
Hebrew means "one who comes from the other side." Abraham was the father of the Hebrews. He came from the other side of the Mesopotamia to seek out the call of God in his life.

HaShem made an agreement (ברית) with Abraham that he would magnify his offspring and turn them into an innumerable nation. There were no Hebrews in the world apart from Abraham and his children.

When Abraham's son was grown, God reconfirmed the covenant with him, and so with his grandson, to whom HaShem gave the name "Israel". Israel had twelve children, and their offspring collectively came to be referred to as "the Children of Israel" rather than as "Hebrews".

Technically, I assume that the term "Hebrew" should be applicable to all who descended from Abraham, such as the Arab peoples – who come from Abraham's first son by the handmaiden. However, this is not the convention at all. The Ishmaelites are never referred to as Hebrews in the text of the Bible.

The twelve children of Israel became the heads of large families who came to be called "tribes" (שבטים). One of these tribes was called "Judah", from whom it was said that the kingship would proceed when the time came for a kingdom to be established.

The kingdom was indeed established under Saul, but he turned out to be a bad guy. David, who became king after him, sought the council of HaShem all of his life. He was a righteous king, the standard to which all subsequent kings would be compared. He was from the tribe of Judah, as was his son Solomon.

Solomon became king and married foreign women, collected homes, money, and horses, built the Temple of HaShem in Jerusalem, and eventually made a lot of mistakes. His son became king after him, and he pushed hard on the Israelite people, so they broke away from him.

There were then two kingdoms among the children of Israel. The one located in the north of the land became known either as "Israel" or "Ephraim" (named after one of the tribes of Joseph), and the one in the south was called "Judah". Ephraim contained ten tribes (counting Joseph as two: Ephraim and Menasseh), Judah contained two (Benjamin and Judah) as well as the priesthood (Levi).

All who were associated with the southern kingdom came to be called "Judahites" or "Jews", as we see in the writings of the Bible as well as the Annals of Sargon (the Assyrian king). In the Bible, the form is יהודי yehudi, while in the Annals of Sargon, then form is יהודאי yehuda'i.

Ephraim became embroiled in idolatry. HaShem punished them by carrying them into exile under the Assyrians, from which they never returned and have become lost.

Thus, ALL of Israel that remained were יהודים yehudim, those belonging to the southern kingdom of Judah. The priests were called yehudim, those of Judah and Benjamin were called yehudim; everyone left of the Israelite people were called yehudim. We say yehudim in English as "Jew".

Thus, the remnant of Israel that is still alive today is called "Jews" after the southern kingdom. The second house of Israel (Ephraim or Israel) will be restored when Messiah comes. Until then, "Jews" are all that remain of the children of Israel, and in the Bible there is no distinction in terminology between "Hebrew" (from Abraham) and "Jew" (from the Southern Kingdom).

Jason

[jaihare]

So what will happen to us "gentile/goyims" when he shows up to ya'll.

I'll just have to stick with JESUS for the time being until your Messiah shows up, then I can switch. Is that ok? :)

Ezekiel 37:26 And I cut to them a Covenant of Peace, covenant of age he shall become with them.
And I give them, and I increase them, and I give them sanctuary/04720 miqdash of Me in midst of them for age.

Luke 19:41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her,
42 saying, "That if thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes".
Gentiles who do not worship other gods will be brought under the leadership of Messiah and given freedom and life in the Age to Come. The only God who will be worshiped in those days will be HaShem, and he will be completely "One" (even Christians will acknowledge it). The prophet Zechariah says very clearly:

"HaShem will be king over all the earth. On that day, HaShem shall be one, and his name shall be one." (Zech. 14:9)

Although people have tried to demonstrate that HaShem is three and that his name can be given to three (they say that HaShem refers to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, collectively as well as individually), the Tanakh teaches us that HaShem will be universally understood to refer only to the Holy One of Israel, and that name will be given to no one else.

So, should you hold on to Jesus? I cannot proselytize here, but I will tell you that according to the Torah and to the Prophets, HaShem is ONE and not THREE. You are worshiping something that is foreign to the people of Israel and foreign to the text of the Bible.

Jason

[kivi]

So what will happen to us "gentile/goyims" when he shows up to ya'll.

I'll just have to stick with JESUS for the time being until your Messiah shows up, then I can switch. Is that ok? :)

kivi says: Judaism is jsut as universalistic as Christianity, it just allows for a different internal structure than Christainity. Unlike Christianity which divides the world into 'believers' and 'non-believers'; Christians and non-Christians; 'damned' and 'saved', which, of course, is your worry, LLG; Judaism says: All B'nai Israel and the Righteous of the Nations have a portion in Olam Habah. So, what will happen to the 'goyim' when Moshach shows up? They will have a portion in Olam Habah. No, we don't send them to Hell for not being Jewish, unlike Christianity, which sends all non-Christians to Hell. A difference in mercy between the two spiritual systems.

[kivi]

surprise

kivi says: Well, here I am, swimming around, all quiet and peaceful and there, in the mirky distance looks like a greaaaaaat worm, all wiggly and fat. Of course, I know there is a hook in there, its just disguised by that great worm. So, do I take the bait and get into an great arguement and 'set some jerk right'? Or do I remember that the last 20 times I did take the bait and got caught by the hook and ended up feeling like a putz. So, I can pretend that the hook isn't there, even though its been there everytime I have seen that great bait before. Or I can go on my way. What should I do?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

kivi says: Well, here I am, swimming around, all quiet and peaceful and there, in the mirky distance looks like a greaaaaaat worm, all wiggly and fat. Of course, I know there is a hook in there, its just disguised by that great worm. So, do I take the bait and get into an great arguement and 'set some jerk right'? Or do I remember that the last 20 times I did take the bait and got caught by the hook and ended up feeling like a putz. So, I can pretend that the hook isn't there, even though its been there everytime I have seen that great bait before. Or I can go on my way. What should I do? Kivi, if you want to talk to me with out getting your head chopped off, just talk to me in a nice way, or ask questions.

[Torah613]

So what will happen to us "gentile/goyims" when he shows up to ya'll.

I'll just have to stick with JESUS for the time being until your Messiah shows up, then I can switch. Is that ok? :)

Ezekiel 37:26 And I cut to them a Covenant of Peace, covenant of age he shall become with them.
And I give them, and I increase them, and I give them sanctuary/04720 miqdash of Me in midst of them for age.

Luke 19:41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her,
42 saying, "That if thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes".

Goyim is plural, no s is needed. That is an english language convention and does not apply to Hebrew.

Yochanan

[dvd_holc]

I would like to add that...Josephus says there are four groups 1) Sadducees 2) Pharisees 3) Essenes 4) Zealots....although the zealots don't seem to a united front with the 1st century, the movement is highly dependent upon their Pharisee background. Now, the Pharisees had a huge rainbow of theology...but the present rabinical Judaism is a product of the Pharisees after the fall of Jerusalem (first) and Bar Kochbar (second) revolts. Yes, Hillel House does not have the place of prestige but not until after the failures of the Shammai House...so then, 1) gone 2) burned and rebuilt 3) gone and 4) (a off shoot of 2) gone.

Now is there Purality with God? Can God's prophecy talk about more than one historical occurence? Yes, why else do people believe that the Messiah (The Son of David and Son of God) would build the bayit of God?

[jaihare]

Messiah building the Temple has nothing to do with doublespeak on the part of HaShem.

[dvd_holc]

Really? Then, I am confused because 2 Sam. 7 which people first associate with Solomon also is taken to mean another Messiah....

[jaihare]

Really? Then, I am confused because 2 Sam. 7 which people first associate with Solomon also is taken to mean another Messiah....
If that were the basis for believing that Messiah will build the Third Temple, then I wouldn't believe it. The basis for this belief is perfectly spelled out in the Prophets.

Jason

[dvd_holc]

Oh...ok, it has nothing to do with 2 Sam 7...apart of the Prophets...

[jaihare]

Oh...ok, it has nothing to do with 2 Sam 7...apart of the Prophets...
Not in the least. I have not heard anyone say that Messiah will build the third Temple based on that chapter.

Jason

[kivi]

kivi says: I send you these posts in an attempt to open a productive line of communication with you. If you take what I am saying, in general, in a personal way, it is not my intention as can be understodd as such from the content of my post. Sorry that you are taking a post done in general in a personal way. Does the 'suite' fit you so well? Want to share? I here to listen.:)
Kivi, if you want to talk to me with out getting your head chopped off, just talk to me in a nice way, or ask questions.

[dvd_holc]

Not in the least. I have not heard anyone say that Messiah will build the third Temple based on that chapter.

JasonOk, and I did not try to imply that this passage was the whole story...