A Jew's Honest Assessment

[Qalevra]

As an epilogue to the most recent little forum battle, I'd like to share a few things that I have realised over the last several days. You may or may not find this antagonistic; but this is the truth, and I'm laying this out for the purpose of understanding.

First, there seems to be a sense of indignance that Jews, not just here, but everywhere, will not recognise the Messianic movement as a form of Judaism. When Jews here reiterate the point that there is no middle ground, it is not a flippant statement or a knee-jerk reaction. There are fundamental differences in the belief systems of Judaism and the Messianics. I laid them out in cyberlizard's thread, but I did not place them in context. I will do that here.

1. Messianics have belief in a divine messiah, and Judaism holds that the awaited messiah will be a man.
2. Messianics have belief in the trinity, and Judaism believes that G-d is One, Inseparable.
3. Messianics have belief in original sin, Judaism simply does not.
4. Messianics have belief in hell, Judaism has varying opinions, but none are representative of Christian hell. We do not find it in the Tanakh.
5. Messianics have belief in a need for salvation from hell, Judaism believes that G-d has laid out the process of reconciliation, and that HaShem not only says He is merciful, but shows it throughout the Tanakh, by taking the people of Israel back time and time again. Of course, Judaism does not believe in hell.
6. Messianics have belief that the messiah offers this salvation, Judaism believes that the messiah's purpose is clearly laid out in the Tanakh, and never speaks of atonement for sin.
7. Messianics have belief that the messiah will come twice, Judaism, by and large does not, and for those that do believe it, recognize that it is to be in quick succession.
8. Messianics have belief that the Torah applies to all humanity, Judaism recognises that the Torah was given to the Jews only.
9. Messianics accept the New Testament, Judaism does not.
10. Messianics have belief that one can become a "spiritual Jew", Judaism recognizes the national and communal nature of the Jews, which does not provide such a "back door".
11. Messianics have belief in the indwelling of the holy spirit person of the trinity, Judaism simply does not.

As you can see, there are fundamental differences in the approach to our relationship with G-d. The Messianic beliefs mirror very closely the Nicene Creed. There is sin, the wages of sin is death, a divine messiah is needed to atone and save the world from sin, and that only through him is this salvation possible. I think that I am presenting the majority belief of the Messianics correctly.

However, Judaism does not teach this. This concept is completely foreign to us. It is clear that Messianics and Christians have a belief system that does not fall within Judaism. Sure, the ideas behind their beliefs are more or less loosely based on Jewish literature, but the similarities do end there, I'm afraid. In this light, does it not seem just to simply acknowledge that the Messianic movement is not a form of Judaism?

Personally, Christian beliefs do not anger me. I'm aware that most Christians believe I'm going to hell. That is fine; that is their belief. And if Christians want to put a Jewish veneer on things to feel as if they're practicing "true first century Christianity", that's fine with me. I see Christian belief as false, but of no danger or real consequence to myself.

Here is where the friction comes; Jews are particularly unnerved by messianic attempts to convert Jews who are not as well grounded in the Tanakh. While some messianics prefer to just worship Jesus in a faux-Jewish setting, others knowingly use the messianic disguise to target secular Jews for conversion. I know this from personal experience.

Trying to define this movement as a form of Judaism is excusable to some degree when done by those who are unfamiliar with Jewish belief, but is nothing less than deceptive and malicious when done by those who know better. To be fair to most messianics, it seems to me that the former is the most prevalent case. I think that perhaps these messianics who want to call it Judaism, do so because they put stock in the Christian version of Jewish belief, and see their movement as the natural outpouring of that. However, the Christian version of Jewish belief is a strawman, and not founded on or accurately representing Jewish sources.

Other friction exists in the light of our shared, bloody history, but to me, it is a reminder of what may come rather than a tool to spur hatred. I have a letter written from my great grandmother's sister in Germany to my great grandmother in Lithuania in 1913. She states that my great grandmother should flee Russia (of which Lithuania was a part at that time), and move to Germany, where Jews are protected by the government and enjoy freedom and security. I can take from this that Jews were massacred in Russia and Germany, and be bitter, or recognise that Jews may have security in Galut for a short time, but that it is not guaranteed to last. The current "amicable" state between Jews and Christians will not last. The cycle will recur.

To many Jews, and even this one here, the attempt by messianics to identify themselves as Jewish rings hollow. Being Jewish is beautiful, and the sad truth is that the world loves to destroy a beautiful thing. It is my firm belief that were the United States to become Nazi Germany tonight, there would be a great deal less messianics by morning.

I don't expect this to fix anything, but I wanted to clear the air, and put forth my honest assessment of messianic belief and motive, and try to provide explanations as to why you see the problems that you do see.

[kivi]

As an epilogue to the most recent little forum battle, I'd like to share a few things that I have realised over the last several days. You may or may not find this antagonistic; but this is the truth, and I'm laying this out for the purpose of understanding.

First, there seems to be a sense of indignance that Jews, not just here, but everywhere, will not recognise the Messianic movement as a form of Judaism. When Jews here reiterate the point that there is no middle ground, it is not a flippant statement or a knee-jerk reaction. There are fundamental differences in the belief systems of Judaism and the Messianics. I laid them out in cyberlizard's thread, but I did not place them in context. I will do that here.

1. Messianics have belief in a divine messiah, and Judaism holds that the awaited messiah will be a man.
2. Messianics have belief in the trinity, and Judaism believes that G-d is One, Inseparable.
3. Messianics have belief in original sin, Judaism simply does not.
4. Messianics have belief in hell, Judaism has varying opinions, but none are representative of Christian hell. We do not find it in the Tanakh.
5. Messianics have belief in a need for salvation from hell, Judaism believes that G-d has laid out the process of reconciliation, and that HaShem not only says He is merciful, but shows it throughout the Tanakh, by taking the people of Israel back time and time again. Of course, Judaism does not believe in hell.
6. Messianics have belief that the messiah offers this salvation, Judaism believes that the messiah's purpose is clearly laid out in the Tanakh, and never speaks of atonement for sin.
7. Messianics have belief that the messiah will come twice, Judaism, by and large does not, and for those that do believe it, recognize that it is to be in quick succession.
8. Messianics have belief that the Torah applies to all humanity, Judaism recognises that the Torah was given to the Jews only.
9. Messianics accept the New Testament, Judaism does not.
10. Messianics have belief that one can become a "spiritual Jew", Judaism recognizes the national and communal nature of the Jews, which does not provide such a "back door".
11. Messianics have belief in the indwelling of the holy spirit person of the trinity, Judaism simply does not.

As you can see, there are fundamental differences in the approach to our relationship with G-d. The Messianic beliefs mirror very closely the Nicene Creed. There is sin, the wages of sin is death, a divine messiah is needed to atone and save the world from sin, and that only through him is this salvation possible. I think that I am presenting the majority belief of the Messianics correctly.

However, Judaism does not teach this. This concept is completely foreign to us. It is clear that Messianics and Christians have a belief system that does not fall within Judaism. Sure, the ideas behind their beliefs are more or less loosely based on Jewish literature, but the similarities do end there, I'm afraid. In this light, does it not seem just to simply acknowledge that the Messianic movement is not a form of Judaism?

Personally, Christian beliefs do not anger me. I'm aware that most Christians believe I'm going to hell. That is fine; that is their belief. And if Christians want to put a Jewish veneer on things to feel as if they're practicing "true first century Christianity", that's fine with me. I see Christian belief as false, but of no danger or real consequence to myself.

Here is where the friction comes; Jews are particularly unnerved by messianic attempts to convert Jews who are not as well grounded in the Tanakh. While some messianics prefer to just worship Jesus in a faux-Jewish setting, others knowingly use the messianic disguise to target secular Jews for conversion. I know this from personal experience.

Trying to define this movement as a form of Judaism is excusable to some degree when done by those who are unfamiliar with Jewish belief, but is nothing less than deceptive and malicious when done by those who know better. To be fair to most messianics, it seems to me that the former is the most prevalent case. I think that perhaps these messianics who want to call it Judaism, do so because they put stock in the Christian version of Jewish belief, and see their movement as the natural outpouring of that. However, the Christian version of Jewish belief is a strawman, and not founded on or accurately representing Jewish sources.

Other friction exists in the light of our shared, bloody history, but to me, it is a reminder of what may come rather than a tool to spur hatred. I have a letter written from my great grandmother's sister in Germany to my great grandmother in Lithuania in 1913. She states that my great grandmother should flee Russia (of which Lithuania was a part at that time), and move to Germany, where Jews are protected by the government and enjoy freedom and security. I can take from this that Jews were massacred in Russia and Germany, and be bitter, or recognise that Jews may have security in Galut for a short time, but that it is not guaranteed to last. The current "amicable" state between Jews and Christians will not last. The cycle will recur.

To many Jews, and even this one here, the attempt by messianics to identify themselves as Jewish rings hollow. Being Jewish is beautiful, and the sad truth is that the world loves to destroy a beautiful thing. It is my firm belief that were the United States to become Nazi Germany tonight, there would be a great deal less messianics by morning.

I don't expect this to fix anything, but I wanted to clear the air, and put forth my honest assessment of messianic belief and motive, and try to provide explanations as to why you see the problems that you do see.

kivi says:excellent, most excellent. Done in a non-personal, non-flaming, respectful and logical manner, taking in to account that there are a lot of emotions tied into this 'stuff' and have to be treated with consideration, while always being truthful. The phrase: 'the brutal truth' is just that>>brutal. Brutality never had to be tolerated. You have walked the walk.

[HalcyonFire]

why do people care so much about fitting in anyway? (maybe I'm missing out on this being goyim and all)

how does someone else's belief in whether or not you are a "part of the crowd" change what you believe?

btw... Q...:P^_^

[kivi]

why do people care so much about fitting in anyway? (maybe I'm missing out on this being goyim and all)

how does someone else's belief in whether or not you are a "part of the crowd" change what you believe?

btw... Q...:P^_^

kivi says: I think that what you have pointed out is a very significant difference between the Christian worldview and the Jewish worldview. For a Jew, all relations with G-d are through/with/as part of/in the community of/mediated with B'nai Israel/the Jewish Nation/the Community of Jews/the Torah Tradition. We never stand alone. We always try to meet G-d as part of a greater whole, of which we, as individuals, are part of. We depend on the merits of our Fathers and Mothers. There is no 'salvation' outside the Community of B'nai Israel. Example: The 1st Blessing/Barucha of the Amidah, the primary and central prayer of all Jewish services: >>Blessed are You, Adonoy, our G-d, and G-d of our Fathers, G-d of Avraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob, the Almighty......Blessed are You, Adonoy,Shield of Avraham<<. We start all petitions/praises/thanksgivings as part of the Community of Jews. It is not me, it is we.

It is our impression, and correct if me if I am wrong, that Christianity is much more about the individual's relation with G-d. In Christianity, in general, 'Salvation' is done, one person at a time, not on a community wide basis. Now I get this impression when I talk to Christians about 'sinning' and they say: 'Well, he wasn't really a Christian because if he were, he wouldn't have done 'that'.' as if, the second a person does something wrong, they stop being a Christian. {This is something that never occurs in Judaism. Once a Jew, always a Jew. A Jew is never an outlaw to the Torah.} It seems us that in Christianity what the individual's beliefs are/has faith in are what really matters, not the community/church he/she belongs to. Its mano a mano in Christanity. So, yes, '"part of the crowd" changes what you believe'.

[Torah613]

why do people care so much about fitting in anyway? (maybe I'm missing out on this being goyim and all)

how does someone else's belief in whether or not you are a "part of the crowd" change what you believe?

btw... Q...:P^_^

Umm, Goyim is plural. Goy is singular. Goyishe is "gentileesque" as in what a goyishe name/haircut/etc.

Those of us Jews who have been around awhile, have wondered exactly the same thing. What exactly is the fixation with trying to be Jewish, apropriating Jewish symbols, expressions, etc.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

kivi says: I think that what you have pointed out is a very significant difference between the Christian worldview and the Jewish worldview. For a Jew, all relations with G-d are through/with/as part of/in the community of/mediated with B'nai Israel/the Jewish Nation/the Community of Jews/the Torah Tradition. We never stand alone. We always try to meet G-d as part of a greater whole, of which we, as individuals, are part of. We depend on the merits of our Fathers and Mothers. There is no 'salvation' outside the Community of B'nai Israel. Example: The 1st Blessing/Barucha of the Amidah, the primary and central prayer of all Jewish services: >>Blessed are You, Adonoy, our G-d, and G-d of our Fathers, G-d of Avraham, G-d of Issac, and G-d of Jacob, the Almighty......Blessed are You, Adonoy,Shield of Avraham<<. We start all petitions/praises/thanksgivings as part of the Community of Jews. It is not me, it is we.

It is our impression, and correct if me if I am wrong, that Christianity is much more about the individual's relation with G-d. In Christianity, in general, 'Salvation' is done, one person at a time, not on a community wide basis. Now I get this impression when I talk to Christians about 'sinning' and they say: 'Well, he wasn't really a Christian because if he were, he wouldn't have done 'that'.' as if, the second a person does something wrong, they stop being a Christian. {This is something that never occurs in Judaism. Once a Jew, always a Jew. A Jew is never an outlaw to the Torah.} It seems us that in Christianity what the individual's beliefs are/has faith in are what really matters, not the community/church he/she belongs to. Its mano a mano in Christanity. So, yes, '"part of the crowd" changes what you believe'.

a very good point Kivi. This is one reason the Fashala community of Ethiopia had to convert, they had not been part of the Jewish community at large for a long time.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

Umm, Goyim is plural. Goy is singular. Goyishe is "gentileesque" as in what a goyishe name/haircut/etc.

Those of us Jews who have been around awhile, have wondered exactly the same thing. What exactly is the fixation with trying to be Jewish, apropriating Jewish symbols, expressions, etc.

Yochanan
I meant it as "those people" but okay. To me Goy implies any nation including yours. Goyim however is generally directed at gentiles is it not?

[Talmidah]

goyim is the plural of goy

[HalcyonFire]

okay, so if I say goy you'll assume I mean not jewish right? just checking.

[Qalevra]

Yep ;)

[HalcyonFire]

okay. that's not been made clear to me when we have had tea and cookies in the past. so much to figure out.

[hannahfievel]

Those of us Jews who have been around awhile, have wondered exactly the same thing. What exactly is the fixation with trying to be Jewish, apropriating Jewish symbols, expressions, etc.

Yochanan

Yochanan...I am with you on this one. I totally don't understand the latest craze to look or act Jewish in Christian churches..seen it and wondered why too!

And, I'm glad someone brought up that being Jewish isn't something that goes away. I had a tussel with someone who couldn't understand that one is born with Jewish blood and that can't and doesn't "ever" go away!

Now, I do need to say...I am a convert, I've tried alot of different faiths, and for many many reasons I happen to believe that Yeshua is the Messiah and that He will come again. But, that is "my" faith and I have found...I don't want to be grouped into any named group. I have my faith, I don't push it onto my family and still we maintain a great love for one another despite the fact that I believe in the Son of God has come and will return. :)

I think that is how we all could look at the two faiths...they are a great blend...and we "all" are family and should treat one another with respect, amen! Great thread, I'll be looking forward to reading more. Thanks, hannah fievel :wave:

[Steve Petersen]

Umm, Goyim is plural. Goy is singular. Goyishe is "gentileesque" as in what a goyishe name/haircut/etc.

Those of us Jews who have been around awhile, have wondered exactly the same thing. What exactly is the fixation with trying to be Jewish, apropriating Jewish symbols, expressions, etc.

Yochanan


Our Messiah is Jewish. He practised Judaism.

Discipleship is imitation of one's Master.

[HalcyonFire]

I guess that would be correct IMO too Steve, I just think they're balking at people who do that including themselves in the Jewish nation is all... not that they do it because Jesus was a Jew...

[hannahfievel]

Okay, ninnie here...Are you both saying we can only reach perfection by following all the jewish laws? :confused:

[Steve Petersen]

I guess that would be correct IMO too Steve, I just think they're balking at people who do that including themselves in the Jewish nation is all... not that they do it because Jesus was a Jew...


Paul is the one who says Gentiles have been grafted in to Israel. I don't suspect that he meant that in a literal sense, but a spiritual one.

He is alluding to a d'rash about Ruth and Na'amah. God promised in that story to graft them in to Abraham.

Paul's point is that conversion to Judaism doesn't provide God's imprimatur, but becoming Sons of Abraham by faith does.

[HalcyonFire]

Okay, ninnie here...Are you both saying we can only reach perfection by following all the jewish laws? :confused:
not I said the cat

[HalcyonFire]

Paul is the one who says Gentiles have been grafted in to Israel. I don't suspect that he meant that in a literal sense, but a spiritual one.

He is alluding to a d'rash about Ruth and Na'amah. God promised in that story to graft them in to Abraham.

Paul's point is that conversion to Judaism doesn't provide God's imprimatur, but becoming Sons of Abraham by faith does.
right, but spiritual doesn't make one a fleshly part of the body of Israel. There's a difference. I think it's just a name issue. Maybe Hebraic Christian is more appropriate unless you physically are a Jew IRL before you became Christian.

[hannahfievel]

right, but spiritual doesn't make one a fleshly part of the body of Israel. There's a difference. I think it's just a name issue. Maybe Hebraic Christian is more appropriate unless you physically are a Jew IRL before you became Christian.

Elsan,

I like that name Hebraic Christian. I ususally tell people I'm a Christian Jew..which of course allows me to tell them the gospel message, if they will listen. But, most do want to know how one can be a Jewish person and a Christian at the same time..so it's kinda easy to tell them, at least...what the Good News is and why we need our Lord and Savior! :clap:

btw...it is nice to meet you! :hug:

[HalcyonFire]

you too hon. :)

[Torah613]

I guess that would be correct IMO too Steve, I just think they're balking at people who do that including themselves in the Jewish nation is all... not that they do it because Jesus was a Jew...

And yet your own messiah said in your scriptures that his teachings were not for the goyim.

He also said in your scriptures that "not one jot or title of the law will pass away." The law itself says it is only for Jews.

Now as one progresses further in the gentile scriptures, we find Paul saying that only Jews should keep the commandments. Reading through his writings its quite clear that he's not encouraging anyone to become Jewish-esque.

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

And yet your own messiah said in your scriptures that his teachings were not for the goyim.

He also said in your scriptures that "not one jot or title of the law will pass away." The law itself says it is only for Jews.

Now as one progresses further in the gentile scriptures, we find Paul saying that only Jews should keep the commandments. Reading through his writings its quite clear that he's not encouraging anyone to become Jewish-esque.

Yochanan
I don't either. If you do something because it is natural for you or something that you are moved to do, then it is not "keeping the law" in the same vain, is it?

say, I hate shellfish (which I do)... it's easy for me to observe this... am I TRYING to be Jewish this way? nope. It's who I am.

Some people, especially those who convert, would be drawn to this kind of practice to show reverance... not because they "have to". KWIM?

[Torah613]

No I don't know what you mean. However, I do understand what your saying--but that comes from my years as a chr*Stian. It comes from the fact that chr*stianity is a very individualistic religious experience, whereas Judaism is the complete opposite.

You are trying to describe taiwaneese culture in Italian. Something, in fact the entire essence of it, is being lost in translation.

and, would you please consider changing your sig picture? It may not be the current case, but for centuries the chr*stian cross was used in the persecution of the Jewish people and has come to symbolize that with us. Frankly your sig pic is offensive.

Yochanan

[Steve Petersen]

Maybe when you stop defacing the name of Jesus and Christ when you type it. Deal?

[Torah613]

we have been through this 1001 times, all the way up to the admins.

It is called being a religious Jew. Deal with it.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

I would note that the admins put a thread in the MJ forum, saying it was okay for us to do so. That way we don't violate our religious beliefs as torah-observant Jews, and keep from using the other options which people found more offensive such as "xianity."

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

No I don't know what you mean. However, I do understand what your saying--but that comes from my years as a chr*Stian. It comes from the fact that chr*stianity is a very individualistic religious experience, whereas Judaism is the complete opposite.

You are trying to describe taiwaneese culture in Italian. Something, in fact the entire essence of it, is being lost in translation.

and, would you please consider changing your sig picture? It may not be the current case, but for centuries the chr*stian cross was used in the persecution of the Jewish people and has come to symbolize that with us. Frankly your sig pic is offensive.

Yochanan
I appreciate your feelings but if I removed everything that people find offensive then I wouldn't be able to post here either. I don't mean to offend you, but would you remove your star of david if it offended me? certainly not. I don't persecute you. What you have a distaste for is not me.

[Torah613]

I don't find the Magen David offensive, and don't really find the chr*stian cross offensive. After all you are a chr*stian.

However, I find the fact that they are superimposed on each other offensive. Why not have two pics side to side?

And why the universally recognized Jewish symbol, when your not even Jewish?

Yochanan

[ShirChadash]

Maybe when you stop defacing the name of Jesus and Christ when you type it. Deal?Jsus chr*tian chr*tianity xian xianity -- not one of these defaces or defames your deity, Steve. Not one. But you're not going to force Jews here to write or say these names. We don't have to deny our own religious rights in order to make you comfortable, when we can do a non-offensive (no matter how you try to take offense, as determined as you are to do so) alternative that neither offends others (unless they run about seeking to be offended) nor compromises the Jews.

[Torah613]

I appreciate your feelings but if I removed everything that people find offensive then I wouldn't be able to post here either. I don't mean to offend you, but would you remove your star of david if it offended me? certainly not. I don't persecute you. What you have a distaste for is not me.

I understand where you are coming from, and don't see your use of it that way. However if your average Menachem, Shmuli, or Shlomo came in here, and saw that they would think that you were advocating the wiping out of the Jewish people. That's how we interpret that symbol.

Yochanan

[Steve Petersen]

Jsus chr*tian chr*tianity xian xianity -- not one of these defaces or defames your deity, Steve. Not one. But you're not going to force Jews here to write or say these names. We don't have to deny our own religious rights in order to make you comfortable, when we can do a non-offensive (no matter how you try to take offense, as determined as you are to do so) alternative that neither offends others (unless they run about seeking to be offended) nor compromises the Jews.

Or you could find a less offensive way of referring to Jesus. 'Your messiah' is certainly less offensive in my estimation. Or how about 'the Nazarene' or 'your Master', 'your Teacher'

[jaihare]

It is an interesting point that Yochi said. I hadn't thought about it, but truly when you see the cross over the magen david it looks like Christianity trying to impose itself on Jews. It is definitely a threatening image.

[Torah613]

Or you could find a less offensive way of referring to Jesus. 'Your messiah' is certainly less offensive in my estimation. Or how about 'the Nazarene' or 'your Master', 'your Teacher'

that only works when reffering to j*sus directly, but not when referring to chr*stianity.

they also would just plain not work in any other context.

A question for you. Muslims believe that chr*stians worship strange gods (three of them in fact). Do you run around getting offended every time a muslim prays?

Yochanan

[Steve Petersen]

that only works when reffering to j*sus directly, but not when referring to chr*stianity.

they also would just plain not work in any other context.

I'm sure you could find a way if you wanted to.

A question for you. Muslims believe that chr*stians worship strange gods (three of them in fact). Do you run around getting offended every time a muslim prays?

Yochanan

They're not here in our face like you are. If they were, I probably would be offended.

[ORI]

I think each individual has to find his way to G-d. For some it is the church and for others
it is the synagogue with each being uniquely different but no less precious. Regardless
of our affiliation or core beliefs we must help and love one another. I fell G-d expects
no less from all of us !

[Torah613]

Ok steve, but what I don't get is why you think everyone in the world must agree with you?

Also, why in all the time we have been following this mitzvah, you only bring it up in a forum where we are supposed to be allowed to post freely?

Thirdly, the last time was in a thread where Orthodox Jews were being specifically asked a question, and this time its in a thread written by a member of the Jewish community. Why? Why in these threads, do you bring this up? Its utterly illogical.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

What I don't get is why the messianic regulars don't seem to have such a big issue with it, but you do?

And why do you continue to have this issue with us following the commandments of G-d, when it has been explained by both us and forum administrators that it is not meant in a disrespectful way? Why do you feel this incredible need to continually pick at the Jewish community until you have destroyed every little bit of peace we have been trying to bring to this e-community?

Yochanan

[Torah613]

Or you could find a less offensive way of referring to Jesus. 'Your messiah' is certainly less offensive in my estimation. Or how about 'the Nazarene' or 'your Master', 'your Teacher'

Or you could realize that this is 1. not meant in a disrespectful manner and get over it, or 2. barring the above, realize that your feelings are not superior to the comandments of almight G-d, and get over it.

Again steve, not everyone in the world has to agree with you on religious issues.

We are not saying you have to stop worshiping your chr*stian concept of god, but saying that as Jews we have to abide by the commandments and not speak the name of the deities of other religious soceities.

so to boil it down, grow up. Learn to respect the religious beliefs and practices of other people, quit throwing insults around like so many matzah balls and get on with life.

My final suggestion is to look at this and ponder what it says for a few minutes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71GMrGB1KKo

Shalom,
Yochanan

Yochanan

[kivi]

I meant it as "those people" but okay. To me Goy implies any nation including yours. Goyim however is generally directed at gentiles is it not?

The Hebrew word transliterated as 'Goy' refers to the "Nations". When used in the Chumash, the term "Goy" always refers to those "Nations" that are not B'nai Israel. It is a perfectly good Hebrew word.:thumbsup: But recently it has gone through a metamorphise that I, personally, don't quite know how to deal with. Like the word 'stink', which in Shakespeare's time just meant 'smell' without any additional connotation but has, over the years, picked up a very negative/yukkey meaning, for some gentiles/non-Jews the Hebrew world "Goy" has also picked up a negative connotation. It is sad that has happened for no negativelty is implied. When I call a person a name, I like to do in on purpose, for a reason. I sure don't want to insult someone by accident. Its a waste of a good insult;). So, for the purposes of CF, I use the term gentile so as not to insult someone by accident. :idea: This is my own personal thingee. I am implying nothing about anyone else's behavior, their word choice or intention and I am asking no one to agree or disagree with me or follow my example or not follow my example.

The facts of the matter is that B'nai Israel and the Nations make up the World, Yidden and Goyim, together. G-d loves all of the World, not just part of it. He made each Nation a repository of special talents and skills and purposes and each Nation and the collective whole of B'nai Israel and the Nations is absolutely necessary to the fulfillment of G-d's plan for His World. In Judaism, Moshiach [may he come speedily, in our day] is a peacemaker, he will come to unite, not divide; to bring together, not select out. All peoples will together work and live and love under G-d's justice and mercy in Olam Habah. That is what I hope and that is what G-d promses thought His Torah. Not a bad goal, not by a long shot.:thumbsup:

[ShirChadash]

Or you could find a less offensive way of referring to Jesus. 'Your messiah' is certainly less offensive in my estimation. Or how about 'the Nazarene' or 'your Master', 'your Teacher'or... you could grow a little bit of awareness instead of preferring your own nasty assumptions about others' intentions, over reasonability :thumbsup: that could work.

[ShirChadash]

I think each individual has to find his way to G-d. For some it is the church and for others
it is the synagogue with each being uniquely different but no less precious. Regardless
of our affiliation or core beliefs we must help and love one another. I fell G-d expects
no less from all of us !
:clap: AMEN!!!

[ShirChadash]

It is an interesting point that Yochi said. I hadn't thought about it, but truly when you see the cross over the magen david it looks like Christianity trying to impose itself on Jews. It is definitely a threatening image.
this is what I see, whether it is meant that way by the wearer/bearer, or not. To me, it's a "now, we've made it complete" or a "look who the Jewish messiah is ;) " or a here's the full deal -- Judaism + chr*tianity = completed Jew" (which so many chr*tians -- not all -- do believe is both necessary and is the ultimate deal Jews are headed toward, if they want to be "saved").

[kivi]

Okay, ninnie here...Are you both saying we can only reach perfection by following all the jewish laws? :confused:

kivi says: No! No one can reach nor should want to reach perfection by following the 613 Mitzvahs of the Torah.

A/ Perfection is not a Torah goal. A Torah goal [there are several] is the use of the Torah to maximize a Jew's own spiritual expression and spiritual growth. Since growth in Torah is potentially infinite, the term 'perfection' totally misses the point because any Jew can continue to grow spiritually forever.

B/ All of the 613 Mitzvahs of the Torah are for the running of the Nation of B'nai Israel in Eretz {the Land of} Israel. Taken together, they are the Jewish Constitution. Many of the 613 Mitzvahs will never apply to different groups of Jews. For example, Jews who are not the King will not have to worry about international relations with Egypt which is one of several Torah Mitzvahs specifically directed at the King. So, the idea of any one Jew having to do all 613 Mitavahs is also not a Torah goal. It is Halachically [legally] impossible and against G-d's own direction to the Jews at Mt Sinai.

C/ Implying that being perfect and doing all 613 Mitzvahs are Torah ideals wrongly presents Judaism, the Jews and the Torah.

[kivi]

I don't either. If you do something because it is natural for you or something that you are moved to do, then it is not "keeping the law" in the same vain, is it?

say, I hate shellfish (which I do)... it's easy for me to observe this... am I TRYING to be Jewish this way? nope. It's who I am.

Some people, especially those who convert, would be drawn to this kind of practice to show reverance... not because they "have to". KWIM?

kivi says: If I might explain something without offending anyone?

Judaism puts little regard on the idea of doing Torah Mitzvahs because you are 'moved to it' or something that is 'natural' or to show 'reverance'. Judaism operates out of the concept that doing something because you 'have to' is a higher and more rigorous spiritual discipline. For example: In Judaism, a tithe paid, based on 'an obligation' to G-d, doing it exactly the way it is described in the Torah, is a more complete way of doing a Mitzvah than giving some money because you 'feel like it'. This is even if, at the end of the process, you would have given more money because you 'wanted to' than was 'required by' the Torah Mitzvah.

This is a major distinction between Judaism and Christianity. For Judaism, what you described ERM, in your example, is considered, by Judaism, to be keeping the Torah in vain. According to Torah Mitzvahs, doing a mitzvah because a Jew 'felt like it' rather than because G-d 'commanded' the Jew is subsituting that Jew's will for G-d's. Since that Jew is not doing it directly for G-d and because of G-d, it is considered 'vain'. Now, I am not putting any one down. I am merely describing how Judaism operates. I am not telling anyone that anyone has to operate in the same way.

As a further example, if you check out all of the 10 'Tests' of Avraham, each of them required Avraham to do something against his nature. Avraham's nature was to be a 'nice' guy. No one in the history of the Jews has ever been a 'nicer' guy [well, maybe Aaron]. Yet, all the 'Tests' seem to require some form of harshness/cruelty/strictness/aggerssion and even violence on Avraham's part. He went to war to save his nephew, he sent away his eldest son, he offered up his next son as a sacrifice, etc etc etc. He did all of these things not because he 'wanted to' or because 'he was drawn to them' or because they were 'natural' or that they were a 'free will' act on his part. He did them because G-d told him and for no other reason. 'Have to' is the Torah ideal.

[ShirChadash]

kivi says: If I might explain something without offending anyone?

Judaism puts little regard on the idea of doing Torah Mitzvahs because you are 'moved to it' or something that is 'natural' or to show 'reverance'. Judaism operates out of the concept that doing something because you 'have to' is a higher and more rigorous spiritual discipline. For example: In Judaism, a tithe paid, based on 'an obligation' to G-d, doing it exactly the way it is described in the Torah, is a more complete way of doing a Mitzvah than giving some money because you 'feel like it'. This is even if, at the end of the process, you would have given more money because you 'wanted to' than was 'required by' the Torah Mitzvah.

This is a major distinction between Judaism and Christianity. For Judaism, what you described ERM, in your example, is considered, by Judaism, to be keeping the Torah in vain. According to Torah Mitzvahs, doing a mitzvah because a Jew 'felt like it' rather than because G-d 'commanded' the Jew is subsituting that Jew's will for G-d's. Since that Jew is not doing it directly for G-d and because of G-d, it is considered 'vain'. Now, I am not putting any one down. I am merely describing how Judaism operates. I am not telling anyone that anyone has to operate in the same way.

As a further example, if you check out all of the 10 'Tests' of Avraham, each of them required Avraham to do something against his nature. Avraham's nature was to be a 'nice' guy. No one in the history of the Jews has ever been a 'nicer' guy [well, maybe Aaron]. Yet, all the 'Tests' seem to require some form of harshness/cruelty/strictness/aggerssion and even violence on Avraham's part. He went to war to save his nephew, he sent away his eldest son, he offered up his next son as a sacrifice, etc etc etc. He did all of these things not because he 'wanted to' or because 'he was drawn to them' or because they were 'natural' or that they were a 'free will' act on his part. He did them because G-d told him and for no other reason. 'Have to' is the Torah ideal.

:) Good post, kivi.

I look at it as honor and respect, a willingness to have an obedient heart... doing what is asked of me, not only what makes sense to me or has a rational-to-my-head (or appealing-to-my-heart) reasoning.

[ChavaK]

The Hebrew word transliterated as 'Goy' refers to the "Nations". When used in the Chumash, the term "Goy" always refers to those "Nations" that are not B'nai Israel.

However, Bnai Israel is often called "goy Kadosh", "holy nation":

Ex.19:6

6 and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.'

Sorry I can't get the Hebrew to work on this computer....but it
is "goy kadosh"...

[kivi]

However, Bnai Israel is often called "goy Kadosh", "holy nation":

Ex.19:6

6 and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.'

Sorry I can't get the Hebrew to work on this computer....but it
is "goy kadosh"...

kivi says: Exactly. Especially since 'kadosh' means to dedicate or set something aside to be used only for G-d's purpose. Even the mundane, even a nation of slaves can be made kadoshah.

[Talmidah]

Sorry I can't get the Hebrew to work on this computer....but it
is "goy kadosh"...


גוי קדוש

[ChavaK]

גוי קדוש

Ah, thanks! Hebrew works just fine with my laptop,
but I cannot get it to function on the home computer...
guess it refuses to be bilingual..

[Talmidah]

I can't do it from my work computer, but at home it works fine. LOL

[HalcyonFire]

this is what I see, whether it is meant that way by the wearer/bearer, or not. To me, it's a "now, we've made it complete" or a "look who the Jewish messiah is ;) " or a here's the full deal -- Judaism + chr*tianity = completed Jew" (which so many chr*tians -- not all -- do believe is both necessary and is the ultimate deal Jews are headed toward, if they want to be "saved").
I appreciate your interpretations, but again, if we lived on how others saw what we did and their interpretations we'd never speak or move again. There's no way not to offend someone. Like I told Yochanan... it's about showing togetherness (and the cross is on top because it's the less complex and smaller symbol... asthetically it wouldn't work the other way). Not becoming one in religion, but fellowship and togetherness... KWIM?

[HalcyonFire]

kivi says: If I might explain something without offending anyone?

Judaism puts little regard on the idea of doing Torah Mitzvahs because you are 'moved to it' or something that is 'natural' or to show 'reverance'. Judaism operates out of the concept that doing something because you 'have to' is a higher and more rigorous spiritual discipline. For example: In Judaism, a tithe paid, based on 'an obligation' to G-d, doing it exactly the way it is described in the Torah, is a more complete way of doing a Mitzvah than giving some money because you 'feel like it'. This is even if, at the end of the process, you would have given more money because you 'wanted to' than was 'required by' the Torah Mitzvah.

This is a major distinction between Judaism and Christianity. For Judaism, what you described ERM, in your example, is considered, by Judaism, to be keeping the Torah in vain. According to Torah Mitzvahs, doing a mitzvah because a Jew 'felt like it' rather than because G-d 'commanded' the Jew is subsituting that Jew's will for G-d's. Since that Jew is not doing it directly for G-d and because of G-d, it is considered 'vain'. Now, I am not putting any one down. I am merely describing how Judaism operates. I am not telling anyone that anyone has to operate in the same way.

As a further example, if you check out all of the 10 'Tests' of Avraham, each of them required Avraham to do something against his nature. Avraham's nature was to be a 'nice' guy. No one in the history of the Jews has ever been a 'nicer' guy [well, maybe Aaron]. Yet, all the 'Tests' seem to require some form of harshness/cruelty/strictness/aggerssion and even violence on Avraham's part. He went to war to save his nephew, he sent away his eldest son, he offered up his next son as a sacrifice, etc etc etc. He did all of these things not because he 'wanted to' or because 'he was drawn to them' or because they were 'natural' or that they were a 'free will' act on his part. He did them because G-d told him and for no other reason. 'Have to' is the Torah ideal.
no offense taken.

basically it works for us. 1. in no way have I EVER been required to keep Torah (I am not a Jew) so anything I take on will ALWAYS be of my free will and nothing more... it can't ever be "have to".
2. Why would a gentile follow a messiah to be grafted into a more difficult existance with more obligation and more rules? they wouldn't, and this is not what this covenant is about IMO - you don't have to address this as I know you don't believe it... no biggie - I know we will differ here
3. because His grace is so good, I WANT to do things to please Him... so even difficult things become my desire because they are pleasing to God.

[Torah613]

The Hebrew word transliterated as 'Goy' refers to the "Nations". When used in the Chumash, the term "Goy" always refers to those "Nations" that are not B'nai Israel. It is a perfectly good Hebrew word.:thumbsup: But recently it has gone through a metamorphise that I, personally, don't quite know how to deal with. Like the word 'stink', which in Shakespeare's time just meant 'smell' without any additional connotation but has, over the years, picked up a very negative/yukkey meaning, for some gentiles/non-Jews the Hebrew world "Goy" has also picked up a negative connotation. It is sad that has happened for no negativelty is implied. When I call a person a name, I like to do in on purpose, for a reason. I sure don't want to insult someone by accident. Its a waste of a good insult;). So, for the purposes of CF, I use the term gentile so as not to insult someone by accident. :idea: This is my own personal thingee. I am implying nothing about anyone else's behavior, their word choice or intention and I am asking no one to agree or disagree with me or follow my example or not follow my example.

The facts of the matter is that B'nai Israel and the Nations make up the World, Yidden and Goyim, together. G-d loves all of the World, not just part of it. He made each Nation a repository of special talents and skills and purposes and each Nation and the collective whole of B'nai Israel and the Nations is absolutely necessary to the fulfillment of G-d's plan for His World. In Judaism, Moshiach [may he come speedily, in our day] is a peacemaker, he will come to unite, not divide; to bring together, not select out. All peoples will together work and live and love under G-d's justice and mercy in Olam Habah. That is what I hope and that is what G-d promses thought His Torah. Not a bad goal, not by a long shot.:thumbsup:

it is my understanding that goy is itself a neutral term (context deciding whether or not it is meant as an insult) whereas shiksa and shaygets would be definitivly insulting phrases.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

:) Good post, kivi.

I look at it as honor and respect, a willingness to have an obedient heart... doing what is asked of me, not only what makes sense to me or has a rational-to-my-head (or appealing-to-my-heart) reasoning.

it is actually better to keep a mitzvah you don't want to keep. That is more pleasing to HaShem, than simply keeping the mitzvoth because they are there, or you are moved to it.

For instance, partying on friday night is of course forbidden. However, it is better to want to party on friday night, and still keep the mitzvah, than to not want to party and keep the mitzvah.

did any of that make sense?

Yochanan

[Torah613]

I appreciate your interpretations, but again, if we lived on how others saw what we did and their interpretations we'd never speak or move again. There's no way not to offend someone. Like I told Yochanan... it's about showing togetherness (and the cross is on top because it's the less complex and smaller symbol... asthetically it wouldn't work the other way). Not becoming one in religion, but fellowship and togetherness... KWIM?

That may be what you mean, and it is a nice sentiment. However, when a Jew sees that in your sig, our gut reaction is "hide the children--their coming to get us again!" This means your symbol actually represents the exact opposite of your sentiment to the Jews who see this.

Perhaps a picture of Corrie Tenboom? or of JPII praying in a shul?

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

you want me to put up a picture of the pope? (only if you put JESUS in big letters in your siggy Yo)

[HalcyonFire]

I don't find the Magen David offensive, and don't really find the chr*stian cross offensive. After all you are a chr*stian.

However, I find the fact that they are superimposed on each other offensive. Why not have two pics side to side?

And why the universally recognized Jewish symbol, when your not even Jewish?

Yochanan
cough... am I not allowed to wear a rainbow without being associated with homosexuality though that is it's "universal sign"? lol.

the sentiment is what matters. would you deny that if I didn't know you well and brought you a jello salad... you wouldn't appreciate the fact I was trying to do something nice, even though I didn't know I was offending you? things like this are a heart thing. judge my heart, not your interpretation of what the symbol might mean.

[Torah613]

hehe. That one was just to see if you were awake. ;)

Seriously, I think it is a nice sentiment--but that pic simply doesn't convey it. most chr*stians I doupt would see that sentiment in it either.

Perhaps a nice worded quote, or, like I said, a picture of one of the righteous gentiles (you can get a list from the Yad Vashem website IIRC), or maybe a picture of the Kosel and a chr*stian church next to each other?

I just don't want you to be misunderstood by someone who isn't familiar with you...

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

okay Yochanan... YOU come up with something "quote worthy" for that picture (that's APPROPRIATE - lol) and I will post it. Fair?

[Torah613]

cough... am I not allowed to wear a rainbow without being associated with homosexuality though that is it's "universal sign"? lol.

the sentiment is what matters. would you deny that if I didn't know you well and brought you a jello salad... you wouldn't appreciate the fact I was trying to do something nice, even though I didn't know I was offending you? things like this are a heart thing. judge my heart, not your interpretation of what the symbol might mean.

that is my point. a jew who doesn't know you might well likely think you were "out to get us" and possibly judge chr*stianity by an extension of that misinterpretation. You see what I mean?

Yochanan

[Torah613]

okay Yochanan... YOU come up with something "quote worthy" for that picture (that's APPROPRIATE - lol) and I will post it. Fair?

deal. Any indication of what you find inappropriate?

Yochanan

[HalcyonFire]

anything discrying christianity as a whole or Christ... but other than that... probably not

i kinda like things that make people look twice - lol

[ShirChadash]

I appreciate your interpretations, but again, if we lived on how others saw what we did and their interpretations we'd never speak or move again. There's no way not to offend someone. Like I told Yochanan... it's about showing togetherness (and the cross is on top because it's the less complex and smaller symbol... asthetically it wouldn't work the other way). Not becoming one in religion, but fellowship and togetherness... KWIM?yes, I realize your interpretation and my interpretation differ. Notice, I didn't ask you to remove your image. You see it as being about "togetherness" and Jews know that "togetherness" with the cross at its heart has never been about anything but assimilating Jews to chr*tianity, but hey if you want to keep it even knowing it really does less to help and more to hinder some folks' feelings of connection to you -- because it may get in the way, whether you like that or not -- then it's okay by me.

[Qalevra]

I just thought it was a wierd image, but I see the point of others. She means no offense, so it's quite irrelevant to me.

[HalcyonFire]

I always wanna offend you Q (lol)^_^:hug:

[ShirChadash]

you want me to put up a picture of the pope? (only if you put JESUS in big letters in your siggy Yo)
^_^ ^_^ ^_^

[ChavaK]

I always wanna offend you Q (lol)^_^:hug:

:D:D

[ShirChadash]

anything discrying christianity as a whole or Christ... but other than that... probably not

i kinda like things that make people look twice - lolIs there an image that would represent chrtianity, besides the cross? How about a dove?

[Torah613]

a good point shir. How about a Magen David with a dove instead of a cross? it can be interpreted many different ways and doesn't come with the same emotional baggage as the current image.

Yochanan

[ShirChadash]

ERM, I have an idea for you, if you want to see if please Pm me.

[Qalevra]

Did you make that?

[ShirChadash]

Did you make that?Yep

[Qalevra]

Neato. Are you a graphic artist? (I was one for like two years lol)

[kivi]

no offense taken.

basically it works for us. 1. in no way have I EVER been required to keep Torah (I am not a Jew) so anything I take on will ALWAYS be of my free will and nothing more... it can't ever be "have to".

kivi says: That is nice, but Torah Judaism, when all is taken into account, does not allow much room for 'free will' in the manner in which I think you are using it. The 'free will' that Judaism acknowledges is to either do or not do a Mitzvah. It seems that what you are saying is the 'free will' is a choice between two things that are OK and you get to pick and choose which you do. So, for example: You keep kosher or you do not. Either is OK, according to you, but keeping is better in your estimation and so you do it. We just are not given that choice. The guidance, obligations & responsibilities of Torah are all inclusive. There is no part of our life that is not regulated by Torah. NO AREA. Just sit there for a moment and think of your day. Think of the things you do. Now list the moments that you do something that is directly effected by a Commandment from G-d, in elaborate detail. Do you pick the clothing you wear based on a Commandment from G-d? How about the breatfast you eat, or the job you go to or how and when you have sex with your husband. Think about it. Every momnent of our lives are directed by a detailed and complete Commandment from G-d about what we are to do. We do not have the 'Oh, Pork is OK and beef is OK, but beef is kosher animal so I'll eat beef.'
Do you get my point? Thanks for taking the time to make the list and share with us what you have found. :thumbsup:


2. Why would a gentile follow a messiah to be grafted into a more difficult existance with more obligation and more rules? they wouldn't, and this is not what this covenant is about IMO - you don't have to address this as I know you don't believe it... no biggie - I know we will differ here
3. because His grace is so good, I WANT to do things to please Him... so even difficult things become my desire because they are pleasing to God.

kivis says: For this time around, I'll pass on the 'grafting' statement except to say that 'grafting' is useless/it serves no purpose. Gentiles were part of the system from creation of the Universe. There is no need to graft them on to something that they are already part of. "All of B'nai Israel and the Righteous of the Nations have a portion in Olam Habah." What section of that promise from G-d don't gentiles have a part of?

[kivi]

it is my understanding that goy is itself a neutral term (context deciding whether or not it is meant as an insult) whereas shiksa and shaygets would be definitivly insulting phrases.

Yochanan

kivi says: Absolutely. The two 's' words you refer to are just trashy. The word 'goy' is my problem. Believe it or not, I crave tolerance and living with people who disagree. So, I do try to be sensitive. It may seem that I get invovved in too much slash and burn. But I do that only when I think that Judaism is under attack. When things are moving ahead peacefully, I don't want to stir things up:wave:.

[Qalevra]

kivi says: Absolutely. The two 's' words you refer to are just trashy. The word 'goy' is my problem. Believe it or not, I crave tolerance and living with people who disagree. So, I do try to be sensitive. It may seem that I get invovved in too much slash and burn. But I do that only when I think that Judaism is under attack. When things are moving ahead peacefully, I don't want to stir things up:wave:.

I try to live by the same creed. :thumbsup:

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

no offense taken.

basically it works for us. 1. in no way have I EVER been required to keep Torah (I am not a Jew) so anything I take on will ALWAYS be of my free will and nothing more... it can't ever be "have to".
2. Why would a gentile follow a messiah to be grafted into a more difficult existance with more obligation and more rules? they wouldn't, and this is not what this covenant is about IMO - you don't have to address this as I know you don't believe it... no biggie - I know we will differ here
3. because His grace is so good, I WANT to do things to please Him... so even difficult things become my desire because they are pleasing to God.Relevent scripture.
Jeremiah 31:31
"The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.

[ShirChadash]

Neato. Are you a graphic artist? (I was one for like two years lol)
yep yepper

[Melchizedek]

1. Messianics have belief in a divine messiah, and Judaism holds that the awaited messiah will be a man.

HaShem is Israel's Savior, Rock, Redeemer, and King.


2. Messianics have belief in the trinity, and Judaism believes that G-d is One, Inseparable.Kabbalism teaches about the Ein Sof, and more interestingly the raza di-telatha - the mystery of the three (the Godhead - of which the Zohar asks concerning the three names in the Shema: "how can these three be one?...How they are one we can only know by the urging of the Holy Spirit and then even with closed eyes."), but that is beside the point. Messianics are not polytheists, and most I know do not believe in a "trinity" for what then is the Glory that filled the Tabernacle? The Father? The Son? or the Holy Spirit? The Glory? Oy vey we just broke that box. On the contrary there is one God, and there is no other.


3. Messianics have belief in original sin, Judaism simply does not.That all Israel must be "brought near" shows that no one is already near and without need of the Yom Kippor sacrifice. That all mankind must labor after the ground was cursed, and such labor is removed in the Olam Habah (or when we keep Torah), is a distinctively Jewish concept. There are concequences for the sin of Adam and Eve that has affected all mankind, and to this fact there is no rebuttal.


4. Messianics have belief in hell, Judaism has varying opinions, but none are representative of Christian hell. We do not find it in the Tanakh.Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim were destroyed by fire and brimstone after God judged them. The names themselves have significant meaning. They have not been seen since, and never will they rise up again. We know that God is a judge, and will judge the living and the dead. The Christian view of hell are just as varied as rabbinic opinions concerning it, and this point really serves to only highlight the problem of bad exegesis by groups in both camps.


5. Messianics have belief in a need for salvation from hell, Judaism believes that G-d has laid out the process of reconciliation, and that HaShem not only says He is merciful, but shows it throughout the Tanakh, by taking the people of Israel back time and time again. Of course, Judaism does not believe in hell.Reconcilliation is through making teshuvah. One can not make true teshuvah if they reject the Messiah. HaShem certainly is merciful, yet he is also the Judge of the earth, and mercy has no meaning without justice. The commandment (the Shema which includes the whole Torah) is eternal life. When one rejects the commandment, by implication (these "words are your life") one chooses death. As it is written "choose life." If life wasn't something to be chosen, and was just a given for all mankind, then death is not an option for anyone to choose, and you will have just annulled the commandment to "choose" between life and death, blessing and cursing, by making that word to "choose" meaningless. Messiah Yeshua clearly taught the good news as recorded in Mark 1:15 "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the good news." Repentence then, is the gospel message, and is true teshuvah to the Torah.


6. Messianics have belief that the messiah offers this salvation, Judaism believes that the messiah's purpose is clearly laid out in the Tanakh, and never speaks of atonement for sin.The death of the righteous atones for Israel, or have you not read of the Torah's teaching concerning the High Priest? This talmudic concept should be well-known to you, I do not see how you can not connect the dots between that and the Messiah who himself is righteous and too must die for Israel. And Who is the Savior of Israel? The King of Israel? HaShem.


7. Messianics have belief that the messiah will come twice, Judaism, by and large does not, and for those that do believe it, recognize that it is to be in quick succession.
It is said in commentary that if Israel is righteous, her Messiah will come on riding on a charger, but if Israel is not righteous, her Messiah will come riding on a donkey. A distinctively Jewish argument. That Moses rose up first to save his people from Egypt but did not, and then left and came back again and delivered them finally, is very Torahful.


8. Messianics have belief that the Torah applies to all humanity, Judaism recognises that the Torah was given to the Jews only.It is written:
Hosea 6:7
Like Adam, they (Israel) have broken the covenant— they were unfaithful to me there.

It is written in Gen 2:15 by Targum Pseudo-Jonathan
And the Lord God took the man from the mountain of worship, where he had been created, and made him dwell in the garden of Eden, to do service in the Torah, and to keep its commandments.

The Torah indeed was given to Adam.

9. Messianics accept the New Testament, Judaism does not.Messianics do not accept the term "New Testament" yet rather called the latter Writings - but that is a side issue. That this is a difference between Messianics Jews and the rest of Judaism, is no different than the Tanya or other writings of sect leaders in Judaism which are held as an authority for their followers. Yet I would say that our rabbi is the Messiah, and thus certainly his disciples writings trump any commentary that came after them - of course none of their writings can trump the written Torah either (and they don't).

10. Messianics have belief that one can become a "spiritual Jew", Judaism recognizes the national and communal nature of the Jews, which does not provide such a "back door".Surely there is a difference between a secular Jew, and a Torah observant one.


11. Messianics have belief in the indwelling of the holy spirit person of the trinity, Judaism simply does not.That we are tents of the Ruach that was breathed into Adam's nostrils, and he became a nefesh chaim is a distinctly Torah teaching. That the Ruach is of a man-defined limitation (and borderline if not so polytheistic concept) of the trinity, is something the Messianics I know, including myself, do not share.


I find that your fustrations are the same fustrations I have ... with the same people. The Messianic Movement is so divided, that the small minority that do keep the Torah as Messiah himself did, is often not even heard of nor represented in discussions such as these; but please be aware that we exist. Hopefully we can have some constructive conversations going forward if you're interested.

[ContraMundum]

It is our impression, and correct if me if I am wrong, that Christianity is much more about the individual's relation with G-d. In Christianity, in general, 'Salvation' is done, one person at a time, not on a community wide basis. Now I get this impression when I talk to Christians about 'sinning' and they say: 'Well, he wasn't really a Christian because if he were, he wouldn't have done 'that'.' as if, the second a person does something wrong, they stop being a Christian. {This is something that never occurs in Judaism. Once a Jew, always a Jew. A Jew is never an outlaw to the Torah.} It seems us that in Christianity what the individual's beliefs are/has faith in are what really matters, not the community/church he/she belongs to. Its mano a mano in Christanity. So, yes, '"part of the crowd" changes what you believe'.

I'm sorry I missed this first time.

A agree with you that a lot of Christians make such comments and have this approach. But, sadly, like any religion, often the followers make mistakes. It is true that salvation is individual, but it is also true that salvation in Christianity is still partially covenantal and communal as well. This is similar to Judaism. While an individual Jew might not be terribly religious, he is still a Jew, even if he had a bacon double cheeseburger on Yom Kippur. What that might mean for him before HaShem as an individual is not the same as it would be for a devout Jew. Christianity has some similarities, but is just a little more individual. In the salvation sense, a Christian is not one who was born or raised in a Christian family or culture, but one who has repented and been converted by God- this is sometimes referred to as being born again. If a born again Christian commits a sin, they may lose their salvation but usually it will just mean that they must repent and turn away from that sin and amend their life accordingly. They sin, but they are still Christians and still under the Covenant. At this point, there is a similarity between Judaism and Christianity. OTOH, some sins of course will cost a person their salvation if not repented of, and if they do not repent and amend their lives they cease to be Christian- albeit possibly still culturally so (see next para). I guess the way to understand it is that being in the covenant gives them the means of grace and thus the means of repentance and renewal.

Likewise culturally, sure, people can be Christians by being in a family that once might have had a true convert and that has nominally remained true to Christianity, but that is using the term Christian merely in a cultural or sociological sense. They might even be baptised, and thus they have entered into the covenant (as understood by Christians) but unless they are truly converted and have truly repented of their sins they are not, nor have they ever been, Christians. They have God's blessings available to them, but they do not receive them because they have not believed unto repentance and have not received the true new birth. The difference is that the New Birth actually changes a person from the inside out. Without the new birth there is no desire to amend one's life except perhaps on a legalistic or superficial sense. Anyway, I'm getting off the topic...I'll stop there.

Just trying to help draw positive comparisons. Thanks for listening and I'll go back to my neck of the woods now.

[Torah613]

I'm sorry I missed this first time.

A agree with you that a lot of Christians make such comments and have this approach. But, sadly, like any religion, often the followers make mistakes. It is true that salvation is individual, but it is also true that salvation in Christianity is still partially covenantal and communal as well. This is similar to Judaism. While an individual Jew might not be terribly religious, he is still a Jew, even if he had a bacon double cheeseburger on Yom Kippur. What that might mean for him before HaShem as an individual is not the same as it would be for a devout Jew. Christianity has some similarities, but is just a little more individual. In the salvation sense, a Christian is not one who was born or raised in a Christian family or culture, but one who has repented and been converted by God- this is sometimes referred to as being born again. If a born again Christian commits a sin, they may lose their salvation but usually it will just mean that they must repent and turn away from that sin and amend their life accordingly. They sin, but they are still Christians and still under the Covenant. At this point, there is a similarity between Judaism and Christianity. OTOH, some sins of course will cost a person their salvation if not repented of, and if they do not repent and amend their lives they cease to be Christian- albeit possibly still culturally so (see next para). I guess the way to understand it is that being in the covenant gives them the means of grace and thus the means of repentance and renewal.

Likewise culturally, sure, people can be Christians by being in a family that once might have had a true convert and that has nominally remained true to Christianity, but that is using the term Christian merely in a cultural or sociological sense. They might even be baptised, and thus they have entered into the covenant (as understood by Christians) but unless they are truly converted and have truly repented of their sins they are not, nor have they ever been, Christians. They have God's blessings available to them, but they do not receive them because they have not believed unto repentance and have not received the true new birth. The difference is that the New Birth actually changes a person from the inside out. Without the new birth there is no desire to amend one's life except perhaps on a legalistic or superficial sense. Anyway, I'm getting off the topic...I'll stop there.

Just trying to help draw positive comparisons. Thanks for listening and I'll go back to my neck of the woods now.

Contra,

This is not how redemption works in normative Judaism. It works like this. We perform the mitzvoth, with emunah, and it draws divine light down into our neshamot. Eventually the light overflows from our neshamot into the lives of those around us, both Jew and goy. This light elevates the whole world.

The essence of Redemption (salvation whatever you want to call it) is Tikkun Olam.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

It is said that if every Jew in the world observed two shabbos in a row with perfect emunah that we would then we would be in Gan Eden.

Yochanan

[ContraMundum]

Contra,

This is not how redemption works in normative Judaism. It works like this. We perform the mitzvoth, with emunah, and it draws divine light down into our neshamot. Eventually the light overflows from our neshamot into the lives of those around us, both Jew and goy. This light elevates the whole world.

The essence of Redemption (salvation whatever you want to call it) is Tikkun Olam.

Yochanan

I don't think that's all that different to Christianity either- it's just phrased differently. Through emunah, we are justified, yet through mitzvot, we are sanctified (if they are done with emunah- both are the same side of the one coin, so to speak). Santification is basically the same in effect as getting Divine light into the soul. The terms are different, and perhaps the ordo salutis are phrased differently, but basically they are similar in essence. I understand the hasidic terminology well (eg. how sefirot and tzinorot play a part in this) so I can see where you are coming from. As you know, I've had a lot of time around hasids. :)

However, the only difference might be that tikkun olam in Christianity is not the goal of salvation, but yet still it must be its effect. The goal is being in perfect fellowship with God not only on earth but in the afterlife. But, if people are living according to their faith, not only is personal tikkun being acheived but also tikkun olam. Whilst on earth tikkun olam is the goal, but all true emunah will lead to fellowship with God, good works being the evidence or the reflection of Divine love working through His people.

[Torah613]

as you know, I am familiar with the chr*stian way of thinking on this matter as well. Yes there are some similarites, but when it really comes down to it, they are two fundamentally different approaches to the question.

In chr*stianity it is possible for one or two (or even two billion) to be saved, and the rest damned. In Judaism, its all or nothing. WE all make it to olam habah or we spend enough time in gehenna to purify our neshamot to enter olam habah, or we come back and try it again.

This is where the fundamental difference lies. In chr*stian theology, it is a mano a mano process (being "born again" etc.) but in Judaism, it is not that way.

Now the other fundamental difference is, Emunah (while extremely important) is not the magic ingredient. That honor falls to obedience to the mitzvoth. In fact, a Jew who really wants bacon but instead abstains has greater merit in that mitzvah than the Jew who has no desire for bacon.

Yochanan

[ShirChadash]

yep yepper

as you know, I am familiar with the chr*stian way of thinking on this matter as well. Yes there are some similarites, but when it really comes down to it, they are two fundamentally different approaches to the question.

In chr*stianity it is possible for one or two (or even two billion) to be saved, and the rest damned. In Judaism, its all or nothing. WE all make it to olam habah or we spend enough time in gehenna to purify our neshamot to enter olam habah, or we come back and try it again.

This is where the fundamental difference lies. In chr*stian theology, it is a mano a mano process (being "born again" etc.) but in Judaism, it is not that way.

Now the other fundamental difference is, Emunah (while extremely important) is not the magic ingredient. That honor falls to obedience to the mitzvoth. In fact, a Jew who really wants bacon but instead abstains has greater merit in that mitzvah than the Jew who has no desire for bacon.

Yochanan
:clap:

[ContraMundum]

as you know, I am familiar with the chr*stian way of thinking on this matter as well.

Indeed!

In chr*stianity it is possible for one or two (or even two billion) to be saved, and the rest damned. In Judaism, its all or nothing. WE all make it to olam habah or we spend enough time in gehenna to purify our neshamot to enter olam habah, or we come back and try it again.

Yes, the universalism and reincarnation of many forms of Judaism was always something I struggled with.


Now the other fundamental difference is, Emunah (while extremely important) is not the magic ingredient. That honor falls to obedience to the mitzvoth. In fact, a Jew who really wants bacon but instead abstains has greater merit in that mitzvah than the Jew who has no desire for bacon.

Yochanan

This is also true in Christianity. A person who has conquered their sinful desires is very blessed indeed. One famous work put it this way "True peace of heart, then, is found in resisting passions, not in satisfying them." However, Christianity might also add that true obedience is a manifestation of emunah, and obedience for other reasons (to get reward or win favor or gain etc.) is of no profit. To Christians, and I suspect many Jews, we approach all good works as "We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty."

[Torah613]

Indeed!



Yes, the universalism and reincarnation of many forms of Judaism was always something I struggled with.



This is also true in Christianity. A person who has conquered their sinful desires is very blessed indeed. One famous work put it this way "True peace of heart, then, is found in resisting passions, not in satisfying them." However, Christianity might also add that true obedience is a manifestation of emunah, and obedience for other reasons (to get reward or win favor or gain etc.) is of no profit. To Christians, and I suspect many Jews, we approach all good works as "We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty."









eh yes and no. Obedience, no matter what the motivating factor is of great merit. I know someone who does not eat chazer out of cultural solidarity, yet is himself otherwise highly assimilated and sees no religious reason to abstain from pork. B"H that he keeps this mitzvah. What great divine light is drawn into his neshama and into our world because of it.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

now, think of the world we would have if all Jews kept all the mitzvoth applicaple to their station?

Yochanan