I feel as though I've been duped

[Kris10leigh]

I thought the purpose of starting a new forum over here was so that Jews could freely interject notions, practices and thoughts of a religious nature. I didn't know that it was so the Jews could tell the Messianics what hideous creatures they are or that there is no middle ground and that we should get over it.

I'm tired of everyone who isn't a Jew being lumped into a group called "Christians", a word that is used with contempt.

I can not make amends for the atrocities Christians and/or Messianics are doing in Israel and other parts of the country. Nor will I shoulder the burden of their shame. I am an individual who is genuinely interested in all matters of faith, and I know I am not alone.

Can we please not assume that every poster is the enemy? Can we please not generalize? Just adding the word "some" to statements often helps. "Some Christians..." or "Some Jews..."

Please. :holy:

[Kris10leigh]

Also, we aren't all out to get Jews to convert!!! Far from it! We aren't ALL doing that. Some of us just have questions!

[Torah613]

And those of you who treat us with respect, we try to treat with respect in turn.

Most of us have stated that we don't care that there are chr*stians and messianics in Isreal. As long as they don't try to convert Jews that is. When they do something on our soil that we find disdainful, we have a right to talk about it. But believe me its not just limited to messianics or chr*stians. We generally heavily criticize the assimilated Jewish culture, the isreali government, etc. Its our country, our people, our culture--and our right to fight like mad to keep it.

Is there middle ground between messianics and Jews? frankly, no. But that doesn't mean we can't chat about things (even matters of faith) as long as we respect each others rights to our own opinions, beliefs, and religious practices. That respect is not generally there in this place, and that is why we have been fleeing this forum in droves (well minidroves really).

Yochanan

[Kris10leigh]

But this forum is not Israel. I see one or two individuals ruining things everyone else, and it isn't right.

[Talmidah]

Ruining things? Again, I don't get that. Talk to whom you want, ignore whom you want. This isn't a mini utopia. Its an internet message board with people of all types and personalities. You won't get a long with everyone and you don't have to. That's the beauty of this forum of communication. You can pick and choose what to discuss, with whom to discuss. Its really quite simple. :)

[Kris10leigh]

Talmidah, I agree. That's why I have never threatened to leave nor have I said that there can be no tolerance between two groups of people. I believe as you do that I can ignore the idiots and get on with the people who will have civil discussions. Unfortunately, I keep getting put into the lump sum of people who are intolerant against the Jews and I guess it's wearing on me.

[Talmidah]

I haven't seen anybody say "Kris10leigh" is exactly like this group I'm describing. You are applying it to yourself. I don't see anyone else doing so.

[Torah613]

precisely talmidah. i for one was not including her.

Yochanan

[Kris10leigh]

I haven't seen anybody say "Kris10leigh" is exactly like this group I'm describing. You are applying it to yourself. I don't see anyone else doing so.
True. You are right. Then why am I taking this so personally? I guess because I have this deep seeded desire for everyone to get along. I have a dream. ^_^

I guess too that I have a deep love for Christians and Jews alike and that I hate to see either group being trampled. And I mostly identify with Christians at this point and living where I do, all I know are Christians. And they aren't all bad!

[Talmidah]

I understand that desire. Really. Its just that, well, this is the real world, and people don't always get along. And that's okay.

As for Kivi's post in the other thread, I will say that I totally agree with him. But that doesn't stop me for pleasantly interacting with individuals on an individual basis.

[Kris10leigh]

And to be honest, this thread sprung from Kivi's post.

I admit to being an overly sensitive bleeding heart. I will go get a band-aid and move on now. :blush:

[Torah613]

precisely tal precisely.

Yochanan

[simchat_torah]

it was so the Jews could tell the Messianics what hideous creatures they are I don't think anyone's ever said anything of the like...
http://www.jazztelia.com/myfiles/sibylla/258Troll_spray.jpg

[kivi]

kivi says: Would you mind if I placed that post on this thread so we all could have access to it? To be honest, I posted what I did because I wanted to take a more dis-passionate view of the great meltdown [which I found terribley distasteful even as I wa participating in it] that we just went through and to see if it was a result of our character defects only [flaming], or if there was something more at work. I think there is something more at work. I think there are important issues that need to be addressed. And I wrote the post to identify those issues so that they can't lurk in the background, driving us on to more meltdowns without us acknowledging what is they are. I didn't try to solve the problem. To be honest, I don't think there is a solution, but that could just be me. I think the issues are so fundamental that they are unsolvable. But that does not mean that we have to be oblivious to them. Or pretend they are not there. I really do invite more imput, I doubt if I have gotten all of it or even gotten the part I did identify absolutely right.


And to be honest, this thread sprung from Kivi's post.

I admit to being an overly sensitive bleeding heart. I will go get a band-aid and move on now. :blush:

[Talmidah]

I think such a discussion is a good idea, kivi.

[SGM4HIM]

What is the purpose of the term " chr*stians" ?

[Talmidah]

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7247670


Names of the L-rd
This thread is to inform visitors and members of the Messianic Judaism forums abut a few of the variations in the way that some members post certain names.

L-rd and G-d are often written to show reverence.

Chr*st, Chr*stian (or the like) is also seen by some Jewish members, who do not recognise Jesus as the Messiah.

X is also used sometimes to indicate Christ. Even though it was used by early Christians, there are some who are offended by its use. If you, honestly, cannot write out the word "Christ" or "Christian" feel free to remove the "i" with a - _ or * (Chr-st, Chr_st, Chr*st).

In most cases, these are simply religious/cultural differences and not meant to be offensive. Members posting here do not need to compromise their beliefs, but we should all remember to show respect to each other while we are here.

Thank you for your understanding.

[Kris10leigh]

I don't think anyone's ever said anything of the like...

That and the picture you posted has to be the rudest thing anyone has ever posted to me considering my feelings last night and the effort I have been putting forth lately to reconcile. I have never even once been called a troll on any message board I ever participated on because I am genuine. What you see is what you get...really me.

I'll edit if you will.

[Qalevra]

That and the picture you posted has to be the rudest thing anyone has ever posted to me considering my feelings last night and the effort I have been putting forth lately to reconcile.

I think a lot of people recognize that you've been trying to reconcile, but when something like this is posted...

it was so the Jews could tell the Messianics what hideous creatures they are

...all of that goes right out the window.

[Kris10leigh]

This is exactly what I am talking about. Don't bother to ask for clarification. Just assume and go from there.

[HalcyonFire]

True. You are right. Then why am I taking this so personally? I guess because I have this deep seeded desire for everyone to get along. I have a dream. ^_^

I guess too that I have a deep love for Christians and Jews alike and that I hate to see either group being trampled. And I mostly identify with Christians at this point and living where I do, all I know are Christians. And they aren't all bad!
woman after my own heart :thumbsup:

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

woman after my own heart :thumbsup:

Originally Posted by Kris10leigh
True. You are right. Then why am I taking this so personally? I guess because I have this deep seeded desire for everyone to get along. I have a dream.

I guess too that I have a deep love for Christians and Jews alike and that I hate to see either group being trampled. And I mostly identify with Christians at this point and living where I do, all I know are Christians. And they aren't all bad!
woman after my own heart.


If you had to choose between the Orthodox Jews and God, who would you choose?

[HalcyonFire]

I don't have to choose because God does not force me. That being said, I would choose God over any man, woman, child, or thing. I'm sure my Jewish friends would say the same thing. Really, the question is irrelevant to my life.

[Torah613]

Originally Posted by Kris10leigh
True. You are right. Then why am I taking this so personally? I guess because I have this deep seeded desire for everyone to get along. I have a dream.

I guess too that I have a deep love for Christians and Jews alike and that I hate to see either group being trampled. And I mostly identify with Christians at this point and living where I do, all I know are Christians. And they aren't all bad!
woman after my own heart.


If you had to choose between the Orthodox Jews and God, who would you choose?

G-d chose the Jews. and we frummies choose Him. Whom do you choose?

Yochanan

[ShirChadash]

Originally Posted by Kris10leigh
True. You are right. Then why am I taking this so personally? I guess because I have this deep seeded desire for everyone to get along. I have a dream.

I guess too that I have a deep love for Christians and Jews alike and that I hate to see either group being trampled. And I mostly identify with Christians at this point and living where I do, all I know are Christians. And they aren't all bad!
woman after my own heart.


If you had to choose between the Orthodox Jews and God, who would you choose?

If you had to choose between chr*tians and HaShem, whom would you choose?




As for me, I already chose the Am who follow HaShem -- Am Yisrael.

[HalcyonFire]

we dont believe we have to choose SC... we believe we ARE choosing the same thing.

[ShirChadash]

we dont believe we have to choose SC... we believe we ARE choosing the same thing.Fair question -- if MTAA wants to imply that orthodoxy and G-d are mutually exclusive, well I simply asked the same question, substituting the term chr*tianity for Judaism. But looky, there's common ground for you -- Jews know that we don't have to choose, and not only that but get to follow the mitzvot that were given by Him, to the entire nation, for His children to live. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Because He alone is Good.

[simchat_torah]

...all of that goes right out the window.Exactly. As much as I have always enjoyed Kris10leigh's posts, that statement is about as blatantantly full of lies as it gets.
Don't bother to ask for clarification.If you can possibly in the slightest even come close to changing my mind that this statement isn't inflamatory:
so the Jews could tell the Messianics what hideous creatures they areThen I'll gladly edit my post. Until then, no matter how sweet you are everywhere else in these forums, your words were pure trollism. period.

But by all means, explain away... I'm listening.

Venting is what PM's are for. Saying such inflamatory remarks publicly about the Jews here? Well, that's flat out trolling dear. You had your chance to explain, that was in your first post. Not 3 pages later. Nor do I see how you will possibly explain something so gross.

[Qalevra]

If you can possibly in the slightest even come close to changing my mind that this statement isn't inflamatory:

Then I'll gladly edit my post.

+1

[Kris10leigh]

I'm going to make one attempt at reconciling what I said, and then none of you will "see" me for at least a week because I need a break. The last few days have made me realize I've taken this place too seriously.

I'd like to apologize for the statment I made in bold. There have been very few posts here lately where the Messiah was mentioned that someone didn't have something negative to say about Him. These are Messianic forums (MJ and MW) and therefore I feel we have a right to believe in Yeshua and also not to feel threatened for writing about Him. Equally I feel that Jews have a right to their opinion. I believe neither group has the right to bash the other in any way. I will stand up for the Jews. I will also stand up for the Messianics.

This post came out of anger at the fact that I keep seeing people on here putting down Christians and Messianics in general, lumping all of us together as one and the same group who are missionaries and who do atrocities to Jews. I am not wrong to say Jews have been saying there is no middle ground. No one has said anyone is a "hideous creature" but I was speaking metaphorically.

I find it highly insulting that a person makes one mistake and that mistake erases all past history. That makes me really, really sad.

And because I am so emotional, which I should not be on a message board, I am taking a break. :wave:
I thought the purpose of starting a new forum over here was so that Jews could freely interject notions, practices and thoughts of a religious nature. I didn't know that it was so the Jews could tell the Messianics what hideous creatures they are or that there is no middle ground and that we should get over it.

I'm tired of everyone who isn't a Jew being lumped into a group called "Christians", a word that is used with contempt.

I can not make amends for the atrocities Christians and/or Messianics are doing in Israel and other parts of the country. Nor will I shoulder the burden of their shame. I am an individual who is genuinely interested in all matters of faith, and I know I am not alone.

Can we please not assume that every poster is the enemy? Can we please not generalize? Just adding the word "some" to statements often helps. "Some Christians..." or "Some Jews..."

Please. :holy:

[kivi]

Fair question -- if MTAA wants to imply that orthodoxy and G-d are mutually exclusive, well heya it's pretty clear to some of us ;) that that's exactly the fact of chr*tianity. But looky, there's common ground for you -- Jews know that we don't have to choose, and not only that but get to follow the mitzvot that were given by Him, to the entire nation, for His children to live. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Because He alone is Good.

hey, guys, we have to be careful. This guy's winning. He is very good at tricking us into LaShon Horah in such away as makes it diffcult for us to have good relations with our other fellow posters. :wave:

[Kris10leigh]

In going over this with my husband, we think maybe we figured out where my post went wrong. In the sentence " I didn't know that it was so the Jews could tell the Messianics what hideous creatures they are " did you guys think I was saying the Jews are hideous creatures? If that's what you thought I meant, then yay! :clap: I figured it out. That isn't what I meant and is a syntactical error. I meant that I feel like Jews think Messianics are hideous creatures.

I think I should have made the red word "they" the word "we" instead. And to further clarify I do not think Jews or Messianics are hideous creatures.

:prayer: Praying this is just a misunderstanding.

[Talmidah]

I don't really think people thought you were calling them hideous. But that you were saying that Jews call Messianics hideous.

Jews don't think Messianics are hideous creatures. They're just not practicing any form of Judaism, that's all and we wish they would leave Jews alone and stop trying to convert them to their form of chrstianity. Nothing more nefarious than that.

[Torah613]

precisely Talmidah.

Yochanan

[ShirChadash]

hey, guys, we have to be careful. This guy's winning. He is very good at tricking us into LaShon Horah in such away as makes it diffcult for us to have good relations with our other fellow posters. :wave:Ahhh... I see what you mean, Kivi. I'll edit my post... please adjust yours above, accordingly, as well.

[ShirChadash]

In going over this with my husband, we think maybe we figured out where my post went wrong. In the sentence " I didn't know that it was so the Jews could tell the Messianics what hideous creatures they are " did you guys think I was saying the Jews are hideous creatures? If that's what you thought I meant, then yay! :clap: I figured it out.Not I (for one). In fact, where I think you went wrong was here:
"I didn't know that it was so the Jews could tell the Messianics what hideous creatures they are "

I understand where you were coming from, but no this forum was not made so Jews could "tell messianics what hideous creatures they are", and no, no Jew made anything like that statement. Messianics are not following a Judaism of any sort. If telling you so means you think someone is calling you a hideous creature or anything of the sort (literally, or figuratively) then I believe yes that is a misunderstanding. Nearly all chr*tians believe that Jews must be missionized as must all people, evangelized and converted into belief in Jsus. If a Jew here tells you that this is what "Chr*tians believe" and you do not believe it, well okay, good but the fact is that this is normative Chr*tianity that reigns in pretty much all sects, factions and denominations of Chr*tianity. And if telling you so means you thinksomeone is calling you a hideous creature or anything of the srot (literally or figuratively), then I believe yes that is a misunderstanding.

I understand you were feeling emotional when you wrote your post. I sometimes post out of emotion, too, and it can be problematic. I do think that the way you worded your post was an unnecessary accusation that 1) this forum was made for Jews to be able to bash Chr*tians. and 2) Jews are calling messianics hideous creatures, etc.

[SGM4HIM]

"Messianics are not following a Judaism of any sort."

I could see where some Messianics ( especially Jewish MJ's) may take offense at this statement.

But this is good information that needs to be expressed. It shows how far apart folks really are; especially former Christians.

[Talmidah]

"Messianics are not following a Judaism of any sort."

I could see where some Messianics ( especially Jewish MJ's) may take offense at this statement.

But this is good information that needs to be expressed. It shows how far apart folks really are; especially former Christians. I understand what you're saying. It is also offensive to Jews when Messianics to claim to be a part of Judaism, so it kinda goes both ways. But I really agree with you about facts needing to be expressed. That is the only way to come to clarity and understanding, even if there isn't agreement.

And just to clarify, we are not saying that Jewish Messianics are not Jews. Only that they are not practicing Judaism.

[kivi]

Dear kris: Again, we don't think that all messianics are hideous. This is not personal. So, when we thought you said that we did, some of the Jewish posters were offended. This is not about personalities or personal, this is about organizations and groups.:thumbsup: Your personal beliefs are your own business. They are most assuredly not our business. You really have to see the difference between the personal and the organizational/public because you are going to keep tripping over your own feet if you don't and you're such a sweet and kind person, I would not want that for you. ;) However, when it comes to the organizations of Messianic, the J4Js and the Missionaries that seek to convert us through, what the Missionaries think might be a 'easier' slide from Judaism to Christianity ['hey, let's dress it up in tallis and tefillin, let's use a few Yiddishkite words, let's do a little Hassidic dance<Havah Negilah, Havah Negilah>and the rubes won't know the difference{your job is to look up the word 'rube'}], then we take offense. We really take offense. And that was the buzz-saw you ran into. It probably was not deserved. I am sorry and I apologize. I hope you will accept it from me for all of us. :blush:
with warmest regards, kivi

In going over this with my husband, we think maybe we figured out where my post went wrong. In the sentence " I didn't know that it was so the Jews could tell the Messianics what hideous creatures they are " did you guys think I was saying the Jews are hideous creatures? If that's what you thought I meant, then yay! :clap: I figured it out. That isn't what I meant and is a syntactical error. I meant that I feel like Jews think Messianics are hideous creatures.

I think I should have made the red word "they" the word "we" instead. And to further clarify I do not think Jews or Messianics are hideous creatures.

:prayer: Praying this is just a misunderstanding.

[kivi]

Ahhh... I see what you mean, Kivi. I'll edit my post... please adjust yours above, accordingly, as well.

Hey, I love ya, man, we just have to be careful in the future. For all that we take him as a joke, he reels us in, hook, line and sinker, every time. He spreads confusion and discord all over the place. I think the best thing to do is just leave him alone. Not get on his case, not take him on, not try to show how he is wrong, definitely no flaming>>>just leave him alone. For our own benefit. :thumbsup::cool:

[ShirChadash]

I understand what you're saying. It is also offensive to Jews when Messianics to claim to be a part of Judaism, so it kinda goes both ways. But I really agree with you about facts needing to be expressed. That is the only way to come to clarity and understanding, even if there isn't agreement.

And just to clarify, we are not saying that Jewish Messianics are not Jews. Only that they are not practicing Judaism.
exactly.

[Kris10leigh]

Dear kris: Again, we don't think that all messianics are hideous. This is not personal. So, when we thought you said that we did, some of the Jewish posters were offended. This is not about personalities or personal, this is about organizations and groups.:thumbsup: Your personal beliefs are your own business. They are most assuredly not our business. You really have to see the difference between the personal and the organizational/public because you are going to keep tripping over your own feet if you don't and you're such a sweet and kind person, I would not want that for you. ;) However, when it comes to the organizations of Messianic, the J4Js and the Missionaries that seek to convert us through, what the Missionaries think might be a 'easier' slide from Judaism to Christianity ['hey, let's dress it up in tallis and tefillin, let's use a few Yiddishkite words, let's do a little Hassidic dance<Havah Negilah, Havah Negilah>and the rubes won't know the difference{your job is to look up the word 'rube'}], then we take offense. We really take offense. And that was the buzz-saw you ran into. It probably was not deserved. I am sorry and I apologize. I hope you will accept it from me for all of us. :blush:
with warmest regards, kivi
Kivi, thank you. I'm not even trying to argue my point because I get it. All I want is for the troll post and this entire thread to go away.

[ChavaK]

The last few days have made me realize I've taken this place too seriously.
I think all of us sometimes take this place too seriously.....it's only an
internet forum, and we need to keep reminding ourselves of that..

There have been very few posts here lately where the Messiah was mentioned that someone didn't have something negative to say about Him.

I am sorry, but many of us have negative experiences with Christianity
and carry that baggage here. Or we have only negative views of Jesus
for various other reasons; we find it hard to find positive things about
him. This is not meant to be offensive, but since Jews and Christians
and Messianics view him in such a different light, toes sometimes get
stepped on. However, we should not be rude and offensive when we
make comments regarding him, his teachings and his followers.

[ These are Messianic forums (MJ and MW) and therefore I feel we have a right to believe in Yeshua and also not to feel threatened for writing about Him. Equally I feel that Jews have a right to their opinion.
I agree- anyone should be able to believe as they wish and express
those beliefs without being insulted, offended or threatened.

I believe neither group has the right to bash the other in any way. I will stand up for the Jews. I will also stand up for the Messianics.
:thumbsup:

This post came out of anger at the fact that I keep seeing people on here putting down Christians and Messianics in general, lumping all of us together as one and the same group who are missionaries and who do atrocities to Jews.
It has been happening on both sides of the fence, and we should
all put an immediate stop to it. Treat people as individuals and be
respectful when you disagree with their faith and viewpoints.

I am not wrong to say Jews have been saying there is no middle ground.
No, you are correct. But that should not keep us from having conversations...



And because I am so emotional, which I should not be on a message board, I am taking a break. :wave:
Please enjoy your break and hurry back...
:wave:

[SGM4HIM]

And just to clarify, we are not saying that Jewish Messianics are not Jews. Only that they are not practicing Judaism.

Just to clarify do you mean they can continue to be cultural Jews only? and they are not practicing a valid Judaism in a spiritual or religious sense, because they believe Yeshua came to fulfill many ancient Hebrew scriptures?

:confused:

[LittleLambofJesus]

I thought the purpose of starting a new forum over here was so that Jews could freely interject notions, practices and thoughts of a religious nature. I didn't know that it was so the Jews could tell the Messianics what hideous creatures they are or that there is no middle ground and that we should get over it.

I'm tired of everyone who isn't a Jew being lumped into a group called "Christians", a word that is used with contempt.

I can not make amends for the atrocities Christians and/or Messianics are doing in Israel and other parts of the country. Nor will I shoulder the burden of their shame. I am an individual who is genuinely interested in all matters of faith, and I know I am not alone.

Can we please not assume that every poster is the enemy? Can we please not generalize? Just adding the word "some" to statements often helps. "Some Christians..." or "Some Jews..."

Please. :holy:Greetings. I would agree. Should any religion be held responsible even for the faults of some of our forefathers in the past.
Remember the old adage about "1 rotten apple........Besides, us evil, violent, gruesome Christians have enuf of a problem defending our beliefs in the Christ of YHWH, Jesus to non-Christians. Sad but true. Shalom......

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7253955
Why is christianity such a violent and gruesome religion?

[ShirChadash]

I'm tired of everyone who isn't a Jew being lumped into a group called "Christians", a word that is used with contempt.
actually, they aren't really Kristen. But if your theology centers around Jsus in any way, be prepared to be called a chr*tian. And I would propose that it is messianics who use the term chr8tian in a contemptuous manner, far more than Jews do. For the Jews here, the term chr*tian is no different from the term "buddhist" or "wiccan", "confuscian" or "agnostic". It's simply not their religion -- not some evil in and of itself. If you want to go around converting Jews, now, yeah that is going to result in contempt -- and Kristen you do not do such a thing.

I dunno -- I personally have no problem with you whatsoever. I think you are reasonable and respectful, and therefore my heart is to be reasonable and respectful to you. I think I have done so, and if I haven't I hope you'll please let me know. I do also want to point out that if those of us who know what normative, typical chr*tians believe and practice, point it out in rather blanket statements, it is really not meant to paint every single chr*tian with that brush on every single incidence. However, when the vast majority of not only denominations and sects, but individuals as well, believe and teach a certain thing... well again, it is the same thing as I just told Steve (a few times today) -- individuals are individuals. What they believe is not really of consequence to the *whole* of the normative teachings in a religion, which the vast majority of individuals within the religion do ascribe to. I hope I am making sense. I don't mean to upset you by any means, not at all.

Please have a good break. If I am here when you return, then I will really be glad to see you back and posting, Achoti.

[jamescarvin]

I went to recent posts and found this thread. I am still new on CF. I handn't previously noticed that there was a Jewish community here.

I want to offer my apologies if you feel hurt by anything anyone here has said. Your remarks suggest that must be the case.

I am a Christian. I do not understand why the Jews do not see Jesus as the Messiah since it seems fairly clear to me from reading the Bible that he is. I have not got any Christian friends that dislike Jewish people. If they do they have never mentioned it to me.

Mostly at CF I have found two kinds of things. I have found some places where people like to talk about their own faith communities and make friends with those who think alike. And I have found places where people do some debating.

The debating helps people who think differently gain an understanding of one another, even when they are very stubborn on both sides. Or if they are not learning, at least I am. Sometimes it gets heated and seems unkind. When I see this I am discouraged.

But I have to be realistic. I wish people could share their feelings openly because intellectually I think this would be ideal for growth. But there is ugliness inside. And some people put up walls of defense.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I'm sorry for whatever got said that hurt you. Hopefully, the hurt was unintentional.

[ShirChadash]

I went to recent posts and found this thread. I am still new on CF. I handn't previously noticed that there was a Jewish community here.

I want to offer my apologies if you feel hurt by anything anyone here has said. Your remarks suggest that must be the case.

I am a Christian. I do not understand why the Jews do not see Jesus as the Messiah since it seems fairly clear to me from reading the Bible that he is. I have not got any Christian friends that dislike Jewish people. If they do they have never mentioned it to me.

Mostly at CF I have found two kinds of things. I have found some places where people like to talk about their own faith communities and make friends with those who think alike. And I have found places where people do some debating.

The debating helps people who think differently gain an understanding of one another, even when they are very stubborn on both sides. Or if they are not learning, at least I am. Sometimes it gets heated and seems unkind. When I see this I am discouraged.

But I have to be realistic. I wish people could share their feelings openly because intellectually I think this would be ideal for growth. But there is ugliness inside. And some people put up walls of defense.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I'm sorry for whatever got said that hurt you. Hopefully, the hurt was unintentional. Hello James, it's nice to "meet" you.

I too have been very discouraged for a long time... there's been a lot of hurt caused by mistrust, suspicion and unfair dealings toward the Jews, if I may say so, on other certain fora here for a long time. At this point, the Jews rose up and decided to freely address it, and so far it has gotten us a lot of kicks in the teeth. THIS forum was meant to be a more neutral place, but some folks (including me) started off on the wrong foot, I think. I am hoping this forum can still be the bridge we need to help us communicate with one another with kindness and respectfulness, though I confess I do have very little belief it can do so, as I think the woundedness experienced by the Jews has now become woundedness experienced by both Jews and messianics (or perhaps other chr*tians as well, but really this was very much a messianc versus Jew situation, specifically).

I agree with you about debating -- it has its place... but the unkindness does not. I am guilty of it as much as anyone else. There are reasons for the walls and defensiveness, but not excuses. Explanations. But those explanations do not make it right, just make it the reality.

please join our discussions if you care to do so.

Shalom,
Zemirah

[cyberlizard]

i do not want to be rude Talmidah, but of late your posts appear to have become very vicious. I do not mean this thread per se' but across the board (so to speak).

what's changed, cause I am not the only one who has noticed.


Steve

p.s. vicious is the wrong choice - antagonistic may be more appropriate (i came back and edited this to reflect my right choice of words.)

[Torah613]

Just to clarify do you mean they can continue to be cultural Jews only? and they are not practicing a valid Judaism in a spiritual or religious sense, because they believe Yeshua came to fulfill many ancient Hebrew scriptures?

:confused:

That is correct. They are Jews and always will be Jews. Nothing can change that fact.

They are simply Jews who don't practice Judaism as a religion.

A Jew who had converted to chr*stianity was once walking past a synagogue with a hunchback (note this is an anecdote, and not meant to be offensive to people who suffer from this affliction). The first man said to the hunchback "You know, I used to be a Jew." The hunchback responded "and I used to be a hunchback."

I was born a Jew, and B"H I will die a Jew. However I was raised from birth in the chr*stian faith. I will however, bezrat HaShem, die a Jew in keeping the Torah.

Yochanan

[jamescarvin]

I thank you for welcoming me here even though I still am very new. And I pray that I will not offend anyone in any way.

There is a confusion that happens when some people call themselves by the name Chr*stian in my own circle, when their doctrines are in conflict with my own. The Mormons teach a different G*d than the Chr*stian G*d as I have come to know Chr*stianity.

When I think of "Chr*st" I think of the one G*d incarnate, the precise explanation of which probably could be found somewhere in the midst of the EO/OO forums here at CF, though many would consider me a heretic in those forums because I am an ecumenist and believe that those who are in error are nevertheless mystically united in Chr*st as his body on earth by his great mercy. That's my thinking and I am sticking to it. But Mormons are more than just a little bit in error, as I see it. They don't believe in just one G*d, but many. In fact they believe we can give birth to new G*ds and that we are G*ds, just as Chr*st Jesus is. As such their concept of Chr*st is very different from mine.

I wouldn't want a non-Messianic Jewish person to think of that when they think of the word "Chr*stian any more than I like that so many think of murderers when they think of the word Chr*stian. None of these represent who I am or what I believe, or what I believe that a true Christian is.

Yet I can't stop Mormons from using the term to define themselves. They think they are right in their beliefs. But then I don't have a monopoly on the use of or misuse of words. Essentially we have a disagreement. In their minds the fact remains that to be a "Chr*stian" means a certain thing. I have made a decision to respect that there are differences rather than attempt to ask them not to use the term because it offends me.

It also concerns me that many Jews, both Messianic and not, view Christians as violent people. This also defines me and what I believe in a way that is inaccurate.

As I see it there is probably a parallel here with the use of the term Judaism. Judaism was a specific religious practice, though there was some variety within it, that was connected with birthlines. Then Jesus was born and Jews viewed him in a variety of ways. Some considered him thoroughly blasphemous. Others considered him to be a prophet. Some accepted him as M*ssiach. Some within this last group would accept a Chr*stological understanding of him similar to my own.

Others still, seeking to preserve the meaning of a heritage and culture might wish to reject the connection of the term "Jew" even among those Jewish by birth to any of these last groups. When meaning of words change our heritage is obliterated. And for those who cherish it what can a person do?

To my own thinking, Jesus fulfilled what it means to be a Jew more than anyone else ever has. I know that Non-M*ssianic Jews by birth disagree. And I know that their rabis have a library full of reasons and defenses for their opinions, just as I have the same for mine. To my mind, if Jesus was all it meant to be a Jew, then a Chr*stian is the true Jew, by virtue of his blood. It is only out of respect for the Jewish cultural heritage - specifically the non-M*ssianic Jews by birth, that I continue to do what I feel is to deliberately misuse this term.

In these days we are growing in our cultural sensitivity - at least some of us are. I guess that the reason there are those who are placing "*" signs in place of vowels for the name "G*d" and "Chr*st" is out of reverence for the most holy. The habit of Chr*stians is to celebrate the ripping apart of the holy of holies so that all might have access to G*d under a new everlasting covenant, made holy by his blood, the blood of the lamb which protects Israel from death. Also the full pronunciation and spelling is actually something to be celebrated as it recalls the incarnation of G*d. Such is our understanding.

Having used th asterisk sign in this post a number of times, which is very unnatural for me, I can't see taking this up as a habit no matter where I go. It would be hard enough to continue doing this in just one thread or whenever I visit a Jewish forum in the hope that I not offend anyone, despite that it goes against the grain of my own understanding.

I can't make up for all of the atrocities that some Christians have performed against Jews in our ugly history. I wish I could. I can only offer you a few asterisks and heart-felt apologies. As well, please know that I do not use the term "Jew" or even "Israel" to describe myself or the church, even though th**logically I do understand myself and the whole bride of Chr*st to be Israel.

There is a somewhat cryptic reference in the book of Revelation to my understanding of all of this that I feel led to share with you and then I will close.

John saw a sign in the heavens. It was a woman with twelve stars about her head, clothed with the Sun, being ready to give birth. Many have identified this woman with Israel, as do I. But I tend to take a both/and approach to reading Scripture, rather than either/or. So I see this woman as being both Israel and the church and Mary, the mother of Yeshuah.

The reference to the number twelve recalls the twelve tribes of Israel. And it also recalls the fact that the church has twelve apostles. Elsewhere in John's Apocolypse we see both twelve plus twelve (24 elders) and twelve times twelve (144,000 virgins who get beheaded).

To me these references signify a combining in the eyes of G*d of Israel and the church as "people of G*d." There is another that most people have missed. And it goes along with the general belief among most Chr*stians, or at least many of them, that there will be with the gathering back of the Jews to himself a restoration of all things, in which Elijah has come and the Jews by blood have converted back to Chr*st, no longer rejecting him as M*ssiach.

The statement is that the woman is nourished in the desert for a time, times and half a time. While most view this as meaning three and a half years, I see in it also an indication of how G*d views his people. First, there is only one people of G*d. The woman is thus nourished for a time. Second, the lost sheep of Israel for which the M*ssiah was sent mostly rejected him. Therefore a people that was his people were no longer his people. Judaism as defined in Chr*st was rejected. Therefore they were no longer Jews because if they reject their G*d, then they are not his people, bloodline or not. And M*ssiach is G*d. They would receive him later when they looked on the one they pierced and the children would be restored to their fathers, but there would be a separation in times. So there would be two times in which the Jews by birth would be the people of G*d. So there was not just a time, but times. And in this latter reign would be a half of those times, really because of the truth of restoration in him - the one time.

The phrase "a time, times and half a time" thus refers to the restoration of Israel and to the unity that we all have as the people of God, including the church which is grafted into true Judaism, and the Jews, which are grafted into the true church in the restoration of all things. (This is not to say that it does not also refer to a period of 1260 days).

If I happened to be right about this then it would be just as important to me, in fact more, to define what a true Jew is as it would be for someone who intends to preserve a cherished heritage to ask me to stop using the word this way. In my view, it is more important to enlighten the mind to the meaning and means of salvation for the benefit of an eternal soul's inheritance and heritage than it is for a person to be rewarded with the preservation of a heritage where the benefit is only in this world.

We wind up with two different visions of heritage. If the belief that comes with the Non-M*ssianic heritage is the correct view, of course, then the opposite holds true. Each person must, of course, live according to their convictions. Let us pray for one another humbly that we may be united under the one true G*d as we do as Solomon did, praying for wisdom and ask him to reveal to us the truth concerning himself.

[Torah613]

ok, so two things:

1. you misunderstood why we use astericks. When referring to G-d we usually use HaShem (The Name). Astericks are for foreign religions and deities and is intended as a hedge law to protect the innocent children of Klal Yisrail from that greatest of evils--assimilation.

2. If chr*stians are the "True Jews" (Oy Gevalt--replacement theology if I ever saw it, this should get interesting if any messianics respond), what is the different between a Tallis Gadol and a Tallis Katan? What is the true colour of Techillot and the proper way to reach it? What is the Bracha said when donning Tefflin? You see, contemporary chr*stianity and Judaism have nothing in common when it comes to religious observance. Chr*stianity left the Torah in the dust. It traded the Etz Chayim for the "blood of the lamb." It is no man's blood, but Torah that preserves and protects Klal Yisrail.

But its ok, we'll sort all this out when HaMoshiach comes (may we merit his coming swiftly and in our day Omayn!).

Yochanan

[SGM4HIM]

Re: astericks

Might there be other reasons involved? From post 46 above

"For the Jews here, the term chr*tian is no different from the term "buddhist" or "wiccan", "confuscian" or "agnostic". It's simply not their religion -- not some evil in and of itself"

Notice none of the other religions have an * except Christianity.

I did an Google search of "chr*stian". Although it was a small sample, and unscientific, I found no positive threads using this term, few neutral and the rest negative.

Yes, I read the sticky note given at the top of the forum and understand why some are using it.

Just seems there may be more to it......maybe unconscious and not deliberate. Makes one wonder, though.

[ChavaK]

Re: astericks

"For the Jews here, the term chr*tian is no different from the term "buddhist" or "wiccan", "confuscian" or "agnostic". It's simply not their religion -- not some evil in and of itself"


The problem arises with the use of the name of a foreign god, not a
foreign religion.

None of the other examples you give consider their founder to be a
god, and thus there is no problem with it.

[jamescarvin]

ok, so two things:

1. you misunderstood why we use astericks. When referring to G-d we usually use HaShem (The Name). Astericks are for foreign religions and deities and is intended as a hedge law to protect the innocent children of Klal Yisrail from that greatest of evils--assimilation.

2. If chr*stians are the "True Jews" (Oy Gevalt--replacement theology if I ever saw it, this should get interesting if any messianics respond), what is the different between a Tallis Gadol and a Tallis Katan? What is the true colour of Techillot and the proper way to reach it? What is the Bracha said when donning Tefflin? You see, contemporary chr*stianity and Judaism have nothing in common when it comes to religious observance. Chr*stianity left the Torah in the dust. It traded the Etz Chayim for the "blood of the lamb." It is no man's blood, but Torah that preserves and protects Klal Yisrail.

But its ok, we'll sort all this out when HaMoshiach comes (may we merit his coming swiftly and in our day Omayn!).

Yochanan

Please forgive me. I am still new at CF and even newer to communicating with Jewish people at any length. Thank you for the clarifications.

1. Obviously, since I would have no interest in protecting Jewish children from my thinking, thinking that I am correct, though admitting to still being a learner, if the purpose of the asterisk is to create a hedge against the "evils" of assimilating my beliefs, neither would I want to do that. Of course, fending off assimilation seems like a vane fight at CF as it is a public forum dominated mostly by Chr*stians, and dedicated to communication among Chr*stians. However, abiding by forum rules is sufficient reason for me, if the moderator insists on it, and I can get used to it.

Either way I am happy to refer to G*d as HaShem. I can see I will learn much here. I understand this to mean "the Name." Blessed be his holy name. Do you also avoid use of other more specific names of HaShem? What, for instance of "El*h*m? Would you want a visitor here to completely avoid use of this name? Even a goy, like me? Or is an asterisk required for it? Just say the rules and I will attempt to follow.

2a. I believe the term "replacement theology" refers to those who do not believe in the reintigration of the Jews. Among these are those who do not view the blood born Jews as having any significance for the future. I think that their theology and eschatology are in error. Even though I accept the Christology of the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox Chr*stians, I am an ecumenist and probably would be viewed as heterodox by many of them because I do not so specifically equate the body of Chr*st or his kingdom with the visible church as they see it.

My own thinking is "fulfillment theology." This is a word I made up to describe an eschatology that considers all of the Old and New Testament and takes seriously the words of Jesus, that the Scriptures could not be broken and that every stroke of every letter would be fulfilled. This theology does not exclude the notion that the church is Israel or that it is the true people of HaShem, thus rightly deserving the title true Jew. The disdain many Christians have for replacement theology centers on Protestant sentiments that are a reaction to the amillennialism of the dominant historical churches. The first among the replacement theologians was Justin of Casearia, who is called "Justin the Martyr." His writing predated the rise of Chr*stianity in Rome, as well as the canonization of the New Testament so there is obviously some basis for this type of theology in the TNKH in the eyes of Chr*stians that goes beyond the later Augustinian Chr*stendom=Kingdom thinking and grew comfortable with an only partially fulfilled and largely allegorized Old and New Testament.

Many Messianic Jews learned their Chr*stianity from Evangelicals, mostly who have very negative attitudes towards these older churches. In many ways I am sympathetic to their criticisms, one of which is replacement theology. Only I tend to say both/and quite a bit, rather than either/or. I am the kind of person who learns most by listening to dialog. There is another kind of dialog - that which takes place between Protestants and Historical Churches. I find myself building bridges by seeing that in many ways both sides are right in issues and describing how. Fulfillment theology is one such area in which I have built a bridge. I can appreciate Augustine. And I can also appreciate John Moody or Dwight Pentecost.

For some differences of opinion there is no reconciliation of thinking possible. For instance, I don't expect any reconciliation between Jews and Chr*istians as to faith. Either J*sus is the Messiah or not. There is no middle ground. In the case of replacement theology I am very confident there is a middle ground. But to avoid confusion, I call it fulfillment theology.

2b. In any event, you ask what the difference is between a Tallis Gadol and a Tallis Katand. This is a new question to me. These are two types of clothing Jewish people wear. They are philacteries. No? One larger than the other and worn by married people, but the other for youth?

I'm not sure of the significance of the question but would like to know what you think before answering it. I could only guess but that would be silly. I can tell you my impression of a phylactery is that its purpose is that the word of HaShem would be bound to heart mind and soul always. If your reference is to any Scriptures from the TNKH then please let me know as I would like to examine them. If it is from any other source, then I do not take those sources as authoritative so the result would not be a meaningful conversation.

2c. I do not know what Techillot is, or what significance this has to you. Is this also in the TNKH? Please explain.

2d. I do not have many religious observances, or have many restrictions as to them, but always appreciate them when I learn about them. I do not know what the Bracha is when putting on Tefflin. I know how I pray. I pray clothed many ways. Ocassionally the clothes I put on have some spiritual significance and enhance prayer. Please describe what this means for you. To me, to be clothed in Chr*st means to become more like him in the heart through repentance and the gift of grace that comes in his ability to make us more like him, especially in the resurrection of the new and glorified body, which I very much look forward to. It is the passion of Chr*st's great love washing me by his blood and redefining me. When I put on green I think of everlasting life. When I put on red I think of his blood, his warmth and his love. When I put on white I think of his cleansing. When I put on black I think of my need for repentance. When I put on blue I think about waiting for the fulfillment of all things. Purple, I think of his royalty. Yellow, the fear of HaShem. Orange, the harvest. Brown, his earth. Mixed colors remind me of his creative power and splendor. My calling is to pray always. But I fail.

2e. You say the Torah and Chr*stianity have nothing in common as to religious observance. I agree that they are very different. You can easily see this from the way observances are carried out. To say they have absolutely nothing in common is an extreme I would disagree with. For instance, most Christian churches are comprised of three areas, modeled after the Temple. The more ancient churches used common prayers. And all Chr*stians still pray the psalms. There is much more in common and there is much variety.

Generally, however, for most Chr*stians the purpose of religion is not observance. Observance is simply a teacher, whose purpose is to declare the truth concerning the things of HaShem, part of which is the futility of attempting to achieve righteousness and salvation by it. This highlights our need of a Savior.

2f. You say that Chr*stianity left the Torah in the dust and traded the Etz Chayim for the "blood of the lamb." I believe Etz Chayim means "Tree of Life" or "Light and Life" or something like that. No? I find that the life of Chr*st, which is to love as Christ loves, to die to sin and Christ calls us to death to selfishness and self, and to live according to the Spirit is the Light and Life. The blood of the lamb is the means to this life which shows the love of Chr*st.

If you find life and light in the Torah without Chr*st this should be no surprise, as the Jews did this for centuries prior to Jesus and there is plenty to rejoice in looking forward and in the goodness we already know. As I see it the Chr*stian has more to be thankful for because the great love of HaShem has become manifest in history by the incarnate Word and the hope of salvation is given not just to the Jews but even to the gentiles. It is very good news. Were relgious rituals left in the dust? Absolutely.

2g. You say it is no man's blood, but Torah that preserves and protects Klal Yisrail. I disagree. In my understanding it is the blood of HaShem himself in the human person of Chr*st that preserves and protects corporate and greater Israel. HaShem alone can save. I believe that J*sus is HaShem and that he is risen. This is very good news for Israel. And I believe that the TNKH are fulfilled by it.

Please forgive me if in any way I have offended you in my answers to your questions.

[Qalevra]

James, thank you for your very thoughtful posts. The first thing I should mention is that you certainly don't need to "asterisk" your words when speaking with a Jew. It is incumbent upon Jews to do only ;)

In any case, you don't offend me with your views. I expect them from a Christian.

[ChavaK]

James, thank you for your very thoughtful posts. The first thing I should mention is that you certainly don't need to "asterisk" your words when speaking with a Jew. It is incumbent upon Jews to do only ;)

In any case, you don't offend me with your views. I expect them from a Christian.


I agree!
Welcome, James :wave:

[LittleLambofJesus]

James, thank you for your very thoughtful posts. The first thing I should mention is that you certainly don't need to "asterisk" your words when speaking with a Jew. It is incumbent upon Jews to do only ;)

In any case, you don't offend me with your views. I expect them from a Christian.Would that be views or offence :)

Anyway, if you are looking for some good humour on the forum, I truly recommend visiting the "Twilight Zone" Board. ;)

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7252915&page=6

[ShirChadash]

Re: astericks

Might there be other reasons involved? From post 46 above

"For the Jews here, the term chr*tian is no different from the term "buddhist" or "wiccan", "confuscian" or "agnostic". It's simply not their religion -- not some evil in and of itself"

Notice none of the other religions have an * except Christianity.

I did an Google search of "chr*stian". Although it was a small sample, and unscientific, I found no positive threads using this term, few neutral and the rest negative.

Yes, I read the sticky note given at the top of the forum and understand why some are using it.

Just seems there may be more to it......maybe unconscious and not deliberate. Makes one wonder, though.good grief, will you all get over it and stop looking for reasons to think we are being foul? The last I checked, Buddhists do not consider Buddha their god, Wiccans do not worship a god named wicca, Confucians do not believe Confucius to be god (this is my understanding, as from what I know that practice crept its way into the religion among some at one point but was squelched soundly I think around the time chr*tianity was on the rise) and I don't think agnostics worship a god named agnos. Is your god's name the name of your religion? Yes, it is. Would you rather I call him the J-man and you believers in him J-folks? That's what I say in "real life" discussions, since I can't pronounce chr*t or J*sus, or chr*tians. And if you are finding no neutral use of the term anywhere, you might look HERE on this board, where we use it utterly neutrally, and if you can find a disdainful usage I'd love to see it.

[ShirChadash]

Would that be views or offence :) ^_^
you know, you are a lot of fun LLoj. I appreciate your humor.

[Qalevra]

Would that be views or offence :)

Ha! Touche :D

[SGM4HIM]

I appreciate the insightful answers given by Torah613, ShirChadash and Chavak . I was aware of the reasoning behind the hyphenation but had never looked into the *.

Chavak's answer really caused a the light bulb to go off. Ir's not that Wiccans are favored over Christians but only because this religious group incorporates the name of a foreign god. If Christians became known as Fisherman, based on a popular NT verse, there would be no need to use a *.

I suspect this observance is in reference to Exodus 23:13 and understand the original word used can also mean to write down, not just speak.

"And in all things that I have said to you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of your mouth."

For those using the * for the above reason, I now see where you are coming from:). For those using it for other reasons, shame on you.

Wheel of Fortune quote "I want to buy a vowel" takes on a new meaning here!:wave:

[Talmidah]

I appreciate the insightful answers given by Torah613, ShirChadash and Chavak . I was aware of the reasoning behind the hyphenation but had never looked into the *.

Chavak's answer really caused a the light bulb to go off. Ir's not that Wiccans are favored over Christians but only because this religious group incorporates the name of a foreign god. If Christians became known as Fisherman, based on a popular NT verse, there would be no need to use a *.

I suspect this observance is in reference to Exodus 23:13 and understand the original word used can also mean to write down, not just speak.

"And in all things that I have said to you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of your mouth."

For those using the * for the above reason, I now see where you are coming from:). For those using it for other reasons, shame on you.

Wheel of Fortune quote "I want to buy a vowel" takes on a new meaning here!:wave:

Thank you so much for this thoughtful and respectful post! :thumbsup:

[ChavaK]

. If Christians became known as Fisherman, based on a popular NT verse, there would be no need to use a *.

I suspect this observance is in reference to Exodus 23:13 and understand the original word used can also mean to write down, not just speak.

"And in all things that I have said to you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of your mouth."
You got it! :thumbsup:



Wheel of Fortune quote "I want to buy a vowel" takes on a new meaning here!:wave:
LOL :D

[ChavaK]

i do not want to be rude Talmidah, but of late your posts appear to have become very vicious. I do not mean this thread per se' but across the board (so to speak).

what's changed, cause I am not the only one who has noticed.


Steve

p.s. vicious is the wrong choice - antagonistic may be more appropriate (i came back and edited this to reflect my right choice of words.)

I can't speak for Tal but I think, as the title of the thread is named, many
Jews also felt duped and used.

People were frustrated and it was showing in our posts.

[Talmidah]

i do not want to be rude Talmidah, but of late your posts appear to have become very vicious. I do not mean this thread per se' but across the board (so to speak).

what's changed, cause I am not the only one who has noticed.


Steve

p.s. vicious is the wrong choice - antagonistic may be more appropriate (i came back and edited this to reflect my right choice of words.)

I'm sorry, Steve, somehow I had missed this post before.

I certainly do not set out to be antagonistic nor vicious. As Chava said, many of us have recently realized that we were duped as well as very much used. Some of us have been here for 3, 4, 5 years and thought we had friends here. Some us didn't realize for too long that this has become a very different place than it used to be. Sadness, disappointment....a mix of emotions might accompany that realization. As for me, I will rarely be posting over here in the future. There is simply no point. When I do post, again, I will not be striving for antagonism, but will simply be honest and straightforward. I very much apologize if I have said or done anything to offend you as that was not my intention.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I can't speak for Tal but I think, as the title of the thread is named, many
Jews also felt duped and used.

People were frustrated and it was showing in our posts. Would it be OK for Christians to write: Orth*dox, or your G*d, and your eloh!m?

[Talmidah]

Would it be OK for Christians to write: Orth*dox, or your G*d, and your eloh!m? If you need to do that, feel free! :thumbsup: :)

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

I'm sorry, Steve, somehow I had missed this post before.

I certainly do not set out to be antagonistic nor vicious. As Chava said, many of us have recently realized that we were duped as well as very much used. Some of us have been here for 3, 4, 5 years and thought we had friends here. Some us didn't realize for too long that this has become a very different place than it used to be. Sadness, disappointment....a mix of emotions might accompany that realization. As for me, I will rarely be posting over here in the future. There is simply no point. When I do post, again, I will not be striving for antagonism, but will simply be honest and straightforward. I very much apologize if I have said or done anything to offend you as that was not my intention. I think that the diverse mix here makes this an interesting place. Oh sure it can be frustrating, but hey, we are learning from each other. So it's not all bad.:wave:

[kivi]

kivi says: You say:



1. Obviously, since I would have no interest in protecting Jewish children from my thinking, thinking that I am correct, though admitting to still being a learner, if the purpose of the asterisk is to create a hedge against the "evils" of assimilating my beliefs, neither would I want to do that. Of course, fending off assimilation seems like a vane fight at CF as it is a public forum dominated mostly by Chr*stians, and dedicated to communication among Chr*stians. However, abiding by forum rules is sufficient reason for me, if the moderator insists on it, and I can get used to it."

Why would you want to infect your opinions on Jewish childern when their parents don't want you to. Do you believe that you have the right to go against the wishes and desires of the parents of Jewish childern? If a person tried to infect your children with offensive material, do you think you have the obligation to protect your childern from those people who would so infect your childern?

[ChavaK]

Would it be OK for Christians to write: Orth*dox, or your G*d, and your eloh!m?

Sure, if your religious beliefs are in line with that, feel free to do so....

[ChavaK]

I think that the diverse mix here makes this an interesting place. Oh sure it can be frustrating, but hey, we are learning from each other. So it's not all bad.:wave:

:thumbsup:

I agree.....the diversity makes it most interesting, as well
as a good place to learn.

[SGM4HIM]

I have another question for those that use the * .

How do you handle most of the months, many of the days of week and all planets except earth?

Also the athletic shoe that starts with an N and isn't New Balance.

Many first names derived from Roman, Greco and Gaelic pagan influences.

[LittleLambofJesus]

:thumbsup:

I agree.....the diversity makes it most interesting, as well
as a good place to learn. We are all just diversified Beasts :)

Dan 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I was looking, in my vision [which came] with the night,--when, lo! the four winds of the heavens, bursting forth upon the great sea; 3 and four large wild beasts, coming up out of the sea,--diverse, one from another:-- 4 The foremost, like a lion,
5 And, lo! another wild beast, a second, resembling a bear,
6 After that, I was looking, and lo! another like a leopard, and it, had four wings of a bird upon its back,--7 After that, I was looking in the visions of the night, when lo! a fourth wild beast, terrible and well-hipped and exceeding strong, and it had, large teeth of iron, it devoured and brake in pieces, and, the residue--with its feet, it trampled down,--and, it, was diverse from all the wild beasts that were before it, and it had, ten horns.

[ShirChadash]

Would it be OK for Christians to write: Orth*dox, or your G*d, and your eloh!m?
I think that would be a great idea. LOL

[FaithfulWife]

I appreciate the insightful answers given by Torah613, ShirChadash and Chavak . I was aware of the reasoning behind the hyphenation but had never looked into the *.

Chavak's answer really caused a the light bulb to go off. Ir's not that Wiccans are favored over Christians but only because this religious group incorporates the name of a foreign god. If Christians became known as Fisherman, based on a popular NT verse, there would be no need to use a *.

I suspect this observance is in reference to Exodus 23:13 and understand the original word used can also mean to write down, not just speak.

"And in all things that I have said to you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of your mouth."

For those using the * for the above reason, I now see where you are coming from:). For those using it for other reasons, shame on you.

Wheel of Fortune quote "I want to buy a vowel" takes on a new meaning here!:wave:

I have repped this post and here's why. I guess I don't exactly understand what all the brooha is about. Out of respect (as I understand it) a Jewish person does not use the name of HaShem directly--and that is to show reverence and to obey HIM. And likewise, because a person of the christian persuasion has the NAME of their God in the name of their religion, and because Jewish people want to purposefully practice not intermingling, they use a * or - instead. If you god was Judy Tenuta and she really had a religion called Judyism it would probably be written J*d*ism or something along that line. The idea is to to not name other gods and out of reverence to not use HaShem's name directly either!

Further, this is a conviction of certain Jewish people. Christian people don't need to do it unless they have some conviction to do so. In Judaism that is part of the respect shown--in chrisitianity it is not. So be it!

Sooooo...I repped this post! :thumbsup:


~Faithful

P.S. I've decided to stick a toe in again so let's see how it goes. ;)

[Kris10leigh]

P.S. I've decided to stick a toe in again so let's see how it goes. ;)


Yeah, me too. :thumbsup: Though I'd just assume this thread curl up and die.

[Qalevra]

Yeah, me too. :thumbsup: Though I'd just assume this thread curl up and die.

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4875/commoduskd8.jpg

[Kris10leigh]

^_^

[FaithfulWife]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b221/Lucy_R/ded.jpg