National Revelation

[ChavaK]

An interesting article from the Discovery Seminar that Aish puts on:


http://www.aish.com/spirituality/philosophy/Did_God_Speak_at_Sinai$.asp

http://www.aish.com/graphics/articles/did_god_speak_at_mt_sinai_230x150.jpg
Did God Speak at Sinai?
by Rabbi Nechemia Coopersmith and Rabbi Moshe Zeldman
What support is there for the claim that God spoke to all the Jewish people at the foot of Mount Sinai?



Who did God give the Torah to at Mount Sinai? Most people reply, "God gave the Torah to Moses."

And what were the Jewish people doing while Moses was receiving the Torah? "Worshipping the Golden Calf."

Correct answers -- but NOT according to the Bible.....click on above link for rest of article.


So, if Messianics accept national revelation as it relates to the Torah, why
do they accept the NT when no such revelation occurred? That there was
not national witnessing of the resurrection of Jesus?

As the article shows, without national revelation, there are just too many
questions and too many doubts about an individual's claims....

[visionary]

Who did God give the Torah to at Mount Sinai? Most people reply, "God gave the Torah to Moses."

And what were the Jewish people doing while Moses was receiving the Torah? "Worshipping the Golden Calf."

Correct answers -- but NOT according to the Bible.How can both "correct answers" and "not according to the Bible" be both true?

[ChavaK]

How can both "correct answers" and "not according to the Bible" be both true?

Ya gotta read the article.....;)

[ChavaK]

How did this end up here?
I posted it in the Messianic Way forum... ????
*scratches head in confusion*

[Tishri1]

I can move it over there for ya:thumbsup:

[ChavaK]

It does not matter- I am just surprised because that is where I posted it-
and checked it twice earlier today.
All of a sudden it was gone- and over here.

Course, maybe it has been a long day and I got myself confused
and did not post it where I thought I did....

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

So, if Messianics accept national revelation as it relates to the Torah, why
do they accept the NT when no such revelation occurred? That there was
not national witnessing of the resurrection of Jesus?

Matthew 28
The Guards' Report
11While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13telling them, "You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' 14If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." 15So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.

[jaihare]

Matthew 28
The Guards' Report
11While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13telling them, "You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' 14If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." 15So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.
And this story (an invention, I may add) was circulated to really stress just how evil the Jewish authorities were. They believed in the reports that were given to them, but they would rather lie about the one whom HaShem sent than accept him in the face of miracles.

Simple anti-Semitism. Only Satan is able to acknowledge God's existence and do everything he can to fight against it. Thus, Jews are classed with the devil, since they are said to know the truth but resist it at all costs.

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

And this story (an invention, I may add) was circulated to really stress just how evil the Jewish authorities were. They believed in the reports that were given to them, but they would rather lie about the one whom HaShem sent than accept him in the face of miracles.

Simple anti-Semitism. Only Satan is able to acknowledge God's existence and do everything he can to fight against it. Thus, Jews are classed with the devil, since they are said to know the truth but resist it at all costs.

Jason Are you saying that Yashua is Satan? :confused:

[jaihare]

Are you saying that Yashua is Satan? :confused:
Of course I didn't say that. I said that Christians often equate Jews with Satan in their thinking, since only Satan can believe in God and outright reject him. This is in line with Jesus saying that the Jews of his generation were the "offspring of Satan", and it is in line with what the Church Fathers said. Did you even read what I wrote? How can you get from it that I was saying that Jesus was Satan? That's ridiculous. But, I think it's indicative of our main problem when discussing things with Christians -- low reading comprehension skills in both English and Hebrew.

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Of course I didn't say that. I said that Christians often equate Jews with Satan in their thinking, since only Satan can believe in God and outright reject him. This is in line with Jesus saying that the Jews of his generation were the "offspring of Satan", and it is in line with what the Church Fathers said. Did you even read what I wrote? How can you get from it that I was saying that Jesus was Satan? That's ridiculous. But, I think it's indicative of our main problem when discussing things with Christians -- low reading comprehension skills in both English and Hebrew.

Jason:confused::confused::confused::doh: It's Hippie riddles to me. And my reading comprehension is second year college.

[HalcyonFire]

Of course I didn't say that. I said that Christians often equate Jews with Satan in their thinking, since only Satan can believe in God and outright reject him. This is in line with Jesus saying that the Jews of his generation were the "offspring of Satan", and it is in line with what the Church Fathers said. Did you even read what I wrote? How can you get from it that I was saying that Jesus was Satan? That's ridiculous. But, I think it's indicative of our main problem when discussing things with Christians -- low reading comprehension skills in both English and Hebrew.

Jason
hey now...

can we not chalk up the "jews are satan" people with the "blacks are inferior" people and leave it at that? (they really belong lumped together don't you agree?)

anyway, I don't think Jesus was painting all Jews with the broad brush of "devil's children" but only those extremists to whom he was talking to at that time.

you have to be really clear with some people J. before you type, try to think on say, an elementary school level. :hug:

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

And this story (an invention, I may add) was circulated to really stress just how evil the Jewish authorities were. They believed in the reports that were given to them, but they would rather lie about the one whom HaShem sent than accept him in the face of miracles.

Simple anti-Semitism. Only Satan is able to acknowledge God's existence and do everything he can to fight against it. Thus, Jews are classed with the devil, since they are said to know the truth but resist it at all costs.

Jason The first Christians were Jews (Hebrews.) Jesus (Yahshua) knew and believed in God's existence. And you wondered why I questioned you.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

hey now...

can we not chalk up the "jews are satan" people with the "blacks are inferior" people and leave it at that? (they really belong lumped together don't you agree?)

anyway, I don't think Jesus was painting all Jews with the broad brush of "devil's children" but only those extremists to whom he was talking to at that time.

you have to be really clear with some people J. before you type, try to think on say, an elementary school level. :hug: No comment.

[HalcyonFire]

hehehe... you just did.

sometimes I pick on you so maybe you can see that being hostile isn't productive. it's not that I dont' understand your sentiments in some cases, just not the anger behind your words.

shalom aleichem Michael... honestly....

[jaihare]

hey now...

can we not chalk up the "jews are satan" people with the "blacks are inferior" people and leave it at that? (they really belong lumped together don't you agree?)

anyway, I don't think Jesus was painting all Jews with the broad brush of "devil's children" but only those extremists to whom he was talking to at that time.
Those "extremists" (who insisted on sticking to Torah and maintaining a firm separation between Torah and non-Torah) became our rabbis. Those "extremists" did nothing but study Torah and live by it. If it is only the Torah observant whom Jesus classed as children of Satan, then I guess it's only the religiously observant Jews who have problems there. How nice to know that irreligious Jews are not spirit children of Satan, since they don't know the tradition and are easy prey to missionaries.

you have to be really clear with some people J. before you type, try to think on say, an elementary school level. :hug:
Really?

Here's the elementary version restatement for MTAA:

Jesus said that Jews who keep Torah and reject him are children of Satan.

Many Christians believe that Jews are evil because they reject Jesus.

Satan rejects God, even though he knows that God is real (in Christian belief).

Many Christians have argued that Jews are like Satan, since Jews reject Jesus even though the "Old Testament" obviously teaches about Jesus.

Is this stated simply enough now?

Jason

[jaihare]

The first Christians were Jews (Hebrews.) Jesus (Yahshua) knew and believed in God's existence. And you wondered why I questioned you.
No wonder you cannot understand when the prophets make a reference to "shepherds" and such. You appear to be unable to follow a train of thought. I was more than clear with my references. You are so busy trying to find secret meanings and such that you cannot even follow my clear statements.

What do you think this tells us all about your views of "three shepherds" in Zechariah 11 referring to the leadership during the Second Temple Period, which it doesn't refer to?

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

No wonder you cannot understand when the prophets make a reference to "shepherds" and such. You appear to be unable to follow a train of thought. I was more than clear with my references. You are so busy trying to find secret meanings and such that you cannot even follow my clear statements.

What do you think this tells us all about your views of "three shepherds" in Zechariah 11 referring to the leadership during the Second Temple Period, which it doesn't refer to?

Jason I see your lips flapping in the breeze as you type, but I don't see any references for proof. The prophet Zachariah lived in the 5th century BC.

[ShirChadash]

hehehe... you just did.

sometimes I pick on you so maybe you can see that being hostile isn't productive. it's not that I dont' understand your sentiments in some cases, just not the anger behind your words.

shalom aleichem Michael... honestly....^_^ no comment except to say no comment lolololol

oh well heck what would we be if not for one another... this forum would be boring.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

^_^ no comment except to say no comment lolololol

oh well heck what would we be if not for one another... this forum would be boring. I might be kinder if I was treated with respect. :wave:

[ShirChadash]

I might be kinder if I was treated with respect. :wave:well I for one have tried that until recently (last few weeks) and it never made an ounce of difference, MTAA. But then again, I don't see you being treated unkindly even now -- I see you honestly and specifically trying to bait Jews, and you even have admitted it. That's trollish behavior, angel, and I can't really respect it. Even with the issues that people seem to have with Jews being in the MJ forum, you must admit we react, we do not go on the offense and post all sorts of crapstorm, inciteful OPs to get a reaction out of the messianics.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

well I for one have tried that until recently (last few weeks) and it never made an ounce of difference, MTAA. But then again, I don't see you being treated unkindly even now -- I see you honestly and specifically trying to bait Jews, and you even have admitted it. That's trollish behavior, angel, and I can't really respect it. Even with the issues that people seem to have with Jews being in the MJ forum, you must admit we react, we do not go on the offense and post all sorts of crapstorm, inciteful OPs to get a reaction out of the messianics. I would not have to troll for Orthodox if they were not so tight lipped.

[ShirChadash]

I would not have to troll for Orthodox if they were not so tight lipped.Michael, your false accusations just never end.

I guess it is time for all compassionate people here to put you on ignore.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

John, your false accusations just never end.

I guess it is time for all compassionate people here to put you on ignore. Who is John? and what makes my allegation false?

[ShirChadash]

Who is John? and what makes my allegation false?sorry there, Mikey, I get you and johnd confused now and again. and your allegations are false based on the PLENTIFUL replies and answers you have been freely given since we have been able to actually answer you outside that MJ forum.

Off to be compassionate, now... :wave: you may be hearing crickets more in the future, grasshoppah.

[HalcyonFire]

Those "extremists" (who insisted on sticking to Torah and maintaining a firm separation between Torah and non-Torah) became our rabbis. Those "extremists" did nothing but study Torah and live by it. If it is only the Torah observant whom Jesus classed as children of Satan, then I guess it's only the religiously observant Jews who have problems there. How nice to know that irreligious Jews are not spirit children of Satan, since they don't know the tradition and are easy prey to missionaries.

Jason
sometimes I think you have to view things on a more individual basis Jason, but that may not be in your nature... I'm not sure how that works in Judaism.
I guess what I'm saying is are you sure those exact men lived by Torah 100% and did so with their hearts and minds? That's all.
I wish you could see that nothing I say is missionary to you or any of my Jewish friends. I don't find that necessary.

[jaihare]

I see your lips flapping in the breeze as you type, but I don't see any references for proof. The prophet Zachariah lived in the 5th century BC.
And your insistence, insults, and patting yourself on the back do not increase the strength of your untenable position.

Jason