Even Jesus did not heal at will ...

[Jimbeaux]

Even Jesus did not heal at will …

Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5.19)

What do you think?

~Jim
I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.

[pinetree]

Even Jesus did not heal at will …
Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5.19)
What do you think?

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.


Good point there..~Jim...

I wonder why today,so many in the health and wealth community,have turned it into some kind of formula..:scratch:

[enoch son]

Even Jesus did not heal at will …
Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5.19)
What do you think?

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.


But this is not true! 1 Peter2; 24 "and He Himself bore our sins and in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteouness: by His wounds you were healed."
Just because man thinks this is a body healing (WRONG) and not the spiritual healing it is, doesn't mean christ didn't heal (spiritual) everyone.:blush:

[charityagape]

Good point there..~Jim...

I wonder why today,so many in the health and wealth community,have turned it into some kind of formula..:scratch:

IDK.........but I think that man in general takes most truth and turns it into formula............thereby missing the entire point of the truth.

[The Lord is my banner]

Even Jesus did not heal at will …
Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5.19)
What do you think?






Jesus looked to the Father, saw the Father willed healing, then performed it. Their will to heal is unanimous, therefore the statement, "Even Jesus did not heal at will" is flawed.

[Jimbeaux]

Jesus looked to the Father, saw the Father willed healing, then performed it. Their will to heal is unanimous, therefore the statement, "Even Jesus did not heal at will" is flawed.

And I could say your answer is evasive. :)


~Jim
I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.

[The Lord is my banner]

And I could say your answer is evasive. :)



How so? I thought I answered plainly. :confused:

[enoch son]

You did banner. But both sides get so into themselfs that God could rises the dead and they would miss it.

[JimfromOhio]

Subscribing and I will post my answer tonight :cool:

[JimfromOhio]

I agree with Jim... the answer have not be answered.

[GodsGlory]

Even Jesus did not heal at will …
Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5.19)

What do you think?

~Jim
I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.



Another proof Jesus didn't heal at will, when he said ...

"According to your faith, be it unto you."
"What wilt thou that I should do unto thee."

Jesus also left it up to the person what they wanted done.

[The Lord is my banner]

Even Jesus did not heal at will …
Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5.19)
What do you think?


OK, trying again...

You claim, "Jesus did not heal at will."
You gave us a scripture.
You asked us, "What do you think?"


I think the scripture you offered states clearly that Jesus looks at Father, sees Father helaing, and does likewise. I believe that is what your scripture says. What do you think it says?

I don't see anywhere that Jesus looked at His Father, saw Him refusing to heal, and so followed that example.

I believe you to be saying that the will of the Father and the Son regarding healing might differ at some point, so Jesus might sometimes find Himself looking at His Father and finding no will to heal, therefore He would have to go against His own will as God the Son, and not heal.

I'm saying that never happened.

[he4rty]

Even Jesus did not heal at will …
Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5.19)

What do you think?

~Jim
I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.



I would say Jesus healed by his will, as creatures given free will by God then this passage tells us that Jesus was the ultimate obedient servant and choose to only do what God told him.

A lesson for us to rely on God and trust his direction and purpose for our lives rather than about healing.

[The Lord is my banner]

Another proof Jesus didn't heal at will, when he said ...

"According to your faith, be it unto you."
"What wilt thou that I should do unto thee."

Jesus also left it up to the person what they wanted done.


Thankfully our Lord doesn't violate us, so if we say to Him that we don't want healing then I suppose we won't be forced to receive it, but goodness, why oh why would we do that??? :doh:

[probinson]

[/size][/font]

OK, trying again...

You claim, "Jesus did not heal at will."
You gave us a scripture.
You asked us, "What do you think?"


I think the scripture you offered states clearly that Jesus looks at Father, sees Father helaing, and does likewise. I believe that is what your scripture says. What do you think it says?

I don't see anywhere that Jesus looked at His Father, saw Him refusing to heal, and so followed that example.

I believe you to be saying that the will of the Father and the Son regarding healing might differ at some point, so Jesus might sometimes find Himself looking at His Father and finding no will to heal, therefore He would have to go against His own will as God the Son, and not heal.

I'm saying that never happened.



:thumbsup:

That's rep worthy stuff!

[Jimbeaux]

[/size][/font]

OK, trying again...

You claim, "Jesus did not heal at will."
You gave us a scripture.
You asked us, "What do you think?"


I think the scripture you offered states clearly that Jesus looks at Father, sees Father helaing, and does likewise. I believe that is what your scripture says. What do you think it says?

I don't see anywhere that Jesus looked at His Father, saw Him refusing to heal, and so followed that example.

I believe you to be saying that the will of the Father and the Son regarding healing might differ at some point, so Jesus might sometimes find Himself looking at His Father and finding no will to heal, therefore He would have to go against His own will as God the Son, and not heal.

I'm saying that never happened.






We interpret the scripture the same but apply it differently.

I would say Jesus saw/perceived those whom the Father chose to heal and simply facilitated the healing. He did not heal everybody in Galilee and Judea, just those He saw the Father healing. So, your statement, “I don't see anywhere that Jesus looked at His Father, saw Him refusing to heal, and so followed that example” can be answered by saying that anyone God did not heal must be those He chose not (or, as you said, “refused”) to heal or else everyone would have been healed.


If I am to personally apply this view to my own ministry to others, I would say that I can only heal those whom the Father is already healing. I cannot heal of my own volition. I can only follow my Father’s will and “see” (perceive) those that He is healing. Those that He is not healing is none of my concern—that is His business, not mine. I/we simply follow our Father’s lead in all of our service to Him.


~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.

[GodsGlory]

HEALING debates which twist people's stomachs in knots and give them indigestion!!! :D I LOVE IT!!!!

[msbojingles]

HEALING debates which twist people's stomachs in knots and give them indigestion!!! :D I LOVE IT!!!!

Well, it is a good thing.

In the last month it's been reported that:


There are microorganisms that can turn this indigestion "result" into usable gas (thanks prob for reporting)
The end "result" of the indigestion can also be recycled into paper products. (thanks to Deba and CryoftheNation for reporting)
We can all sleep better tonight now that we know something fruitful IS coming from these healing debates!


(post said in jest)

[FaultySurplus]

Then of course there's always Mark 6:4-6.

"Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor." He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. And he was amazed at their lack of faith."

There were some miracles that Jesus 'could not' perform due to their lack of faith.

[msbojingles]

Then of course there's always Mark 6:4-6.

"Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor." He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. And he was amazed at their lack of faith."

There were some miracles that Jesus 'could not' perform due to their lack of faith.

Just as a side note - the word for "faith" in that passage is a different word with different connotations than the word we normally think of as "faith" throughout the New Testament.

[FaultySurplus]

Just as a side note - the word for "faith" in that passage is a different word with different connotations than the word we normally think of as "faith" throughout the New Testament.

Thanks. However, I was more focusing on the 'could not' portion of that passage.

[msbojingles]

Thanks. However, I was more focusing on the 'could not' portion of that passage.

I understand - wasn't trying to take away from that. :)

But if people look up that passage, it had to do more with their rejection of Jesus. He "could not" because they refused. :)

[msbojingles]

oh yeah and I'm not wof! :D lol

[sacerdote]

Even Jesus did not heal at will …

Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5.19)

What do you think?

~Jim
I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.

Don't agree Jim. I think of it as He healed when He chose to. But absolutely, He followed the direction of the Father.

God bless.

[FaultySurplus]

Thankfully our Lord doesn't violate us, so if we say to Him that we don't want healing then I suppose we won't be forced to receive it, but goodness, why oh why would we do that??? :doh:

I can think of a few circumstances where I can honestly say I wouldn't desire to be healed.

[Trish1947]

I do not believe when looking at our Father to see his nature, that we would ever be given the compassion to pray for someones healing, when someone has asked you to pray, and having to say...wait...I just checked with my Father, He's not healing you or extending any compassion, so the answer is no. That is leterally what is being implied here. When Jesus saw what His Father was doing was showing compassion and willingness to heal.

[FaultySurplus]

I do not believe when looking at our Father to see his nature, that we would ever be given the compassion to pray for someones healing, when someone has asked you to pray, and having to say...wait...I just checked with my Father, He's not healing you or extending any compassion, so the answer is no. That is leterally what is being implied here. When Jesus saw what His Father was doing was showing compassion and willingness to heal.

And yet God does not heal everyone that we pray for. So how does that fit?

[razzelflabben]

Even Jesus did not heal at will …
Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5.19)

What do you think?

~Jim
I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.

You know, when I read this, I read it as if the Father is Christ's example. Consider Paul when he said, I am imitating Christ. This seems to me to be a similar thing, Christ saying I am imitating the Father. The Father then is all about Love is He not? So the imitation is one of Love and accepting the authority of God.

Let me see if I can say it another way. I believe it is I Timothy where Paul talks about making requests, prayers, praises, something like that. Why would he list them if they were all the same thing? Seems to me that prayer is accepting God's authority over everything. Look at the Lord's prayer, it's about God's authority and accepting that authority over everything, even our requests.

If this is true, then Christ could only do what the authority of God dictated, no matter what it was. He was imitating the authority of God. Doing only those things that God's authority permitted. We can do no different, though we often try. We make our requests as if they were God's will, but never once pray, accepting God's authority on the matter. In essence, we set ourselves up to be God. Making requests and assuming they are of God because we are of God. Seems to me that Christ is pretty clear here when He says, that it is only God's authority that He fulfills. He imitates the heart of God.

Just a thought for what it's worth.

[razzelflabben]

I do not believe when looking at our Father to see his nature, that we would ever be given the compassion to pray for someones healing, when someone has asked you to pray, and having to say...wait...I just checked with my Father, He's not healing you or extending any compassion, so the answer is no. That is leterally what is being implied here. When Jesus saw what His Father was doing was showing compassion and willingness to heal.
Let's look at this a moment. We have a "friend" who is an alcoholic, usually homeless because of alcohol. He has gone to several churches for healing. He believes he is healed, and yet he stays sober for only a few weeks at best ususally more like a day or two. The alcohol is literally killing him. So we have people requesting to God that he be healed. We have him believing in that healing. We have him confessing that healing. Why isn't he healed? Or would you consider him healed even though he is still an alcoholic? What is the missing ingredient?

[Balance]

How did Jesus do it? Sometimes He mentioned the person's faith - sometimes He said be healed and they were - sometimes people came and touched Him and were healed - sometimes people came to listen to Him and were healed - many people came and asked Him for healing and were healed.

The simple answer is what you quoted - Jesus, who came in the form of a man, laid aside His Glory and operated under the anointing of the Hold Spirit (remember Luke 4), had so close a relationship with His Father that He did what the Father did, and then told us to do the same.

But instead of taking the time and effort to build a close relationship with Father and get to a place that we know His voice and see what He does - we make educated guesses at what is happening, most times not even knowing if something is or is not God's will - we see someone who doesn't get healed and instead of hearing specifically from God on the matter - we just assume that if they didn't get healed, God must not want them to be.

So, tell me - why didn't the Pharisees and teachers of the law in Luke 5 not get healed??

[Trish1947]

Let's look at this a moment. We have a "friend" who is an alcoholic, usually homeless because of alcohol. He has gone to several churches for healing. He believes he is healed, and yet he stays sober for only a few weeks at best ususally more like a day or two. The alcohol is literally killing him. So we have people requesting to God that he be healed. We have him believing in that healing. We have him confessing that healing. Why isn't he healed? Or would you consider him healed even though he is still an alcoholic? What is the missing ingredient?

How does anyone know what a person actually believes in their heart? That's one thing that many people have said, that they believed this, or they believe that, because they confessed it. Nobody knows what a person actually believes in their heart. I don't know what all my husband believes from his heart and we have been married for 46 years.
The heart of man is God area. And I cannot answer this because I have no idea whats present in the heart, and what the reasons are. But God knows. Not all confessions made, is from the heart. Alot of times it's nothing more than mental assent, with confession from the mouth, with very little to do with actual heart level belief.

[probinson]

To believe that Jesus did not heal at will, you would have to believe that Jesus' will and the Father's will are (or could be) different.

Jesus and the Father (and the Holy Spirit), are ONE. Therefore, they can not have contradictory wills.

So as it pertains to this topic, there was never a time when Jesus wanted to heal someone and the Father didn't, or vice versa.

[The Lord is my banner]

I can think of a few circumstances where I can honestly say I wouldn't desire to be healed.


I just can't grasp that at all, can you help me see why you would say that?
Having suffered both emotional and physical pain, at times in extreme measure, I cannot imagine why anybody would ever say, "No healing thanks."


And yet God does not heal everyone that we pray for. So how does that fit?


That is true, but God's will is not always performed in this world, and I don't have an answer.

[The Lord is my banner]

To believe that Jesus did not heal at will, you would have to believe that Jesus' will and the Father's will are (or could be) different.

Jesus and the Father (and the Holy Spirit), are ONE. Therefore, they can not have contradictory wills.

So as it pertains to this topic, there was never a time when Jesus wanted to heal someone and the Father didn't, or vice versa.

:preach: Preach it brother! :thumbsup:

[FaultySurplus]

So as it pertains to this topic, there was never a time when Jesus wanted to heal someone and the Father didn't, or vice versa.

I don't believe the topic is if Jesus wills to heal. It is His will, but was He able to always carry out that will. He did not, because not everybody was healed.


I just can't grasp that at all, can you help me see why you would say that?
Having suffered both emotional and physical pain, at times in extreme measure, I cannot imagine why anybody would ever say, "No healing thanks."

I gave up my attachments to this life over two decades ago. It was only when I had my own family that I found a reason to stay, but at some point, my kids will grow and move on. I'll no longer be needed and it will be time for me to move on.

Should I reach that point and some life-threatening sickness come on me, I can honestly say my desire is to depart and I would not seek healing. I can't imagine any reason why I'd want to stay.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Jesus said to sell all we have and give to the poor. Seriously doubt He would be in the business of fattening selfish fat cats and making sure they have a new Lexus or "Beamer" every year....

[LeadWorship]

But instead of taking the time and effort to build a close relationship with Father and get to a place that we know His voice and see what He does - we make educated guesses at what is happening, most times not even knowing if something is or is not God's will - we see someone who doesn't get healed and instead of hearing specifically from God on the matter - we just assume that if they didn't get healed, God must not want them to be.

I dig it!

So let me ask - would it be wisdom to say, that unless we had a specific word of knowledge about a person to be healed, or unless by the prompting of Holy Spirit to pray for someone's healing, there's no assurance that a healing will occur? I mean, hearing specifically from God would be that - a word of knowledge or a prompting of Holy Spirit, yes?

Thanks all!

[JimfromOhio]

To believe that Jesus did not heal at will, you would have to believe that Jesus' will and the Father's will are (or could be) different.

Jesus and the Father (and the Holy Spirit), are ONE. Therefore, they can not have contradictory wills.

So as it pertains to this topic, there was never a time when Jesus wanted to heal someone and the Father didn't, or vice versa.

I disagree.

Faith is not self-effort but rather from within. Since faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit by the conviction to submit into action, we are focus on our faith based on obedience to holiness, adding to our faith and fruit of the spirit through grace. Working on of faith means nothing if you don't act on your faith. If you don't act, then you don't have faith.

Therefore, Faith is a confidence that God will actually someday heal us here on earth or in Heaven, that He will actually some day make us perfect and free from sin, that He will actually some day bring us face to face with Christ and make us like Him, that He will actually someday reward us with eternal reward, that He will someday actually take us to a place He’s prepared for us, none of which we have ever seen. Nor has anybody ever come back to tell us about it. So it’s a matter of hope. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for.

Faith is the title deed to the future. Faith is the foundation believing that the promises of God yet to come to pass will come to pass.

Faith is indeed the title deed for things hoped for. Saving faith is placed in something that was promised to happen. Faith is believing something that God promises will happen, not because we will it to happen, but because He PROMISED THEY will happen.

It is the faith that God has the ability and the will to fulfill His promises, that He can be trusted.

FAITH is simple but people make it so difficult in order to make "faith" more than it is. People have made the word "Faith" more complicated than it should be. God wants to conform us to the image of Christ that He brings a purposeful discipline into our lives, He brings training into our lives through difficulty. There are many people who never see past the pain because they’re self-absorbed, they’re self-centered, they’re caught up in their own comfort. The main thing to understand and remember is that Jesus is OUR SHEPHERD that He will supply all our needs (Phil. 4:19) and that He knows everything about our lives (Ps. 139:3), cares about us (1 Pet. 5:7), has the power for every difficulty (Ps. 62:11), is perfecting US to be like Christ (Phil. 1:6), and that nothing escapes Him (Ps. 147:5), that will lead us to be stable, not anxious living.

[probinson]

I disagree.
With what specifically?

Do you believe that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit can have different wills?

[JimfromOhio]

We have to remember its not how to believe but rather who to believe in. Faith is accepting God's Will. There is confusion between the determined Will of God and a Christian's responsibility as a Christian.

This is not about faith in relation to "getting what you want" but faith in WHO and at HIS will. Our self-interest motives conduct even though it is part of our fallen nature, the cross is a symbol of the selfless, others-centered life of Christ.

[JimfromOhio]

With what specifically?

Do you believe that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit can have different wills?
It is God's will that we submit to the Holy Spirit and keep on filling (Ephesians 5:18), Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all the same and ONE God. God does not desire to destroy my will, but to sanctify “my will into His will”. I will repeat A.W. Tozer's quote: Faith is not the ability to persuade ourselves for something we desire will come to pass if we only wish hard enough. God is who He is as Himself. He does not become what we believe. God is "I AM That I AM" and that only when we know what kind of God He is, we are to adjust our entire being to the concept of Who He really is. Faith is subjective, but it is sound only when it corresponds with objective reality by the knowing God as "I AM that I AM", with the help from the Holy Spirit, we produce strong faith. True faith is not the ability to visualize unseen things to the satisfaction of our imperfect minds, but rather the spiritual power to trust Christ as Who He is.

[franky67]

It is God's will that we submit to the Holy Spirit and keep on filling (Ephesians 5:18), Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all the same and ONE God. God does not desire to destroy my will, but to sanctify “my will into His will”. I will repeat A.W. Tozer's quote: Faith is not the ability to persuade ourselves for something we desire will come to pass if we only wish hard enough. God is who He is as Himself. He does not become what we believe. God is "I AM That I AM" and that only when we know what kind of God He is, we are to adjust our entire being to the concept of Who He really is. Faith is subjective, but it is sound only when it corresponds with objective reality by the knowing God as "I AM that I AM", with the help from the Holy Spirit, we produce strong faith. True faith is not the ability to visualize unseen things to the satisfaction of our imperfect minds, but rather the spiritual power to trust Christ as Who He is.


Jim, the question was do the Father , Son, and Holy Spirit have the same will?

Your answer above doesn't address the question. The answer would be YES

[Balance]

To believe that Jesus did not heal at will, you would have to believe that Jesus' will and the Father's will are (or could be) different.

Jesus and the Father (and the Holy Spirit), are ONE. Therefore, they can not have contradictory wills.

So as it pertains to this topic, there was never a time when Jesus wanted to heal someone and the Father didn't, or vice versa.

I submit this to you,

Jesus and the Father had separate wills when He was here on earth.

Jesus in the garden prayed " saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

If they were the same - He would not have had to sanctify Himself to His Father's will.

[Jimbeaux]

To believe that Jesus did not heal at will, you would have to believe that Jesus' will and the Father's will are (or could be) different.

Jesus and the Father (and the Holy Spirit), are ONE. Therefore, they can not have contradictory wills.

So as it pertains to this topic, there was never a time when Jesus wanted to heal someone and the Father didn't, or vice versa.

But this is true only to the extent you believe the Kenosis of Christ and how much of divinity he “emptied himself).
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation (kenoo, emptied himself), taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, (Phil 2)
If Christ was a human in every sense of the word, as we are human, with all of our limitations and temptations, i.e., in ALL points like as we are (see Heb. 2.17; 4.15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb.%202.17;%204.15;&version=50;)) then I cannot accept this view. His will would not have been perfect unless He had chosen God’s will above His own (which he did, John 4.34). Christ was “made perfect (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=5&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)” only through His willful and complete obedience to God.

If, however, I believe Jesus was still God while He was in the flesh—you know, fully God while fully man (an unscriptural concept, IMO)—then I can accept your view. But then His temptations were not like mine (because, being divine, He would have had an edge) and I cannot truly follow His example (because I am human while He is divine). Christ had to be like me in every sense of the word, limitations, warts and all, if He is to be a real example for me to follow in His steps.

But all of this opens up a whole new discussion. I only mention it to show how we may approach this question from two separate perspectives.

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.

[Jimbeaux]

I just can't grasp that at all, can you help me see why you would say that?
Having suffered both emotional and physical pain, at times in extreme measure, I cannot imagine why anybody would ever say, "No healing thanks."





That is true, but God's will is not always performed in this world, and I don't have an answer.

I know a lady who is a hypochondriac and chooses to be ill, even if if she has to fake it, because it serves her felt need for attention. When she is “sick” (real or imagined), people who are not wise to her show her more attention and concern than otherwise and so it serves her emotional needs to be physically ill for the emotional value the attention gains her.

I also knew a man who is drawing disability and Medicaid for an injury he suffered that left him handicapped. He does not want to be healed because it would effect his government allowance.

Those are a couple of reasons people do not want to be healed.

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.

[Balance]

I dig it!

So let me ask - would it be wisdom to say, that unless we had a specific word of knowledge about a person to be healed, or unless by the prompting of Holy Spirit to pray for someone's healing, there's no assurance that a healing will occur? I mean, hearing specifically from God would be that - a word of knowledge or a prompting of Holy Spirit, yes?

Thanks all!

The Word of Knowledge is a good manifestation of the Spirit - but why can't you just talk to the Father and have Him tell you out of your relationship with Him?

I don't pray for people's healings - there's no scriptural support for asking God in prayer to heal anyone. The disciples were not told to pray for peoples healings:

Luke 9:1 When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.

Jesus didn't tell them to ask, Jesus said nothing about it being God's will or not - He simply gave them the authority and then told them to go heal the sick. And they did.

Luke 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.

72 OTHERS - not even the disciples - Jesus sent them out - to do what?


8"When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.'

Jesus didn't tell them to ask, Jesus said nothing about it being God's will or not - He simply gave them the authority and then told them to go heal the sick. And they did.

Acts 3:1 One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer—at three in the afternoon. 2 Now a man crippled from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those going into the temple courts. 3 When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money. 4 Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, "Look at us!" 5 So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them. 6 Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." 7 Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man's feet and ankles became strong. 8 He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God. 9 When all the people saw him walking and praising God,

The man got healed by Peter's words and actions, but Peter NEVER asked God to heal him - Peter never asked if it was God's will to heal the man - he just used his authority and healed the man.

That's what's missing today - that's where we are missing it!

The deep personal day to day relationship with God the Father through Jesus. So personal and so deep that we can instantly know His will and help people. So deep and personal that we interact with Father just like Jesus, the one we're called to imitate, did.

But instead of the multiple multiple examples of how Jesus and the disciples healed through this relationship-, we've reduced knowing God's will to trial and error -

Well, if we pray and we don't see them ......, God must be trying to teach them something - or it must not be God's will.

We have pastors in pulpits that admit they don't know what the will of God is, never seeing this:

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

I've been thrown out of Word of Faith circles because I preached this hard. We're not just supposed to know His will - but prove it.

It's time we got off our high horse of (I think this might be why), and got on our knees and spent real time fellowshipping with the Father so we can train ourselves to hear His voice.

[JimfromOhio]

Jim, the question was do the Father , Son, and Holy Spirit have the same will?

Your answer above doesn't address the question. The answer would be YES
The answer is YES.....We have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us, we also have the Spirit of God dwelling in us, and, we also have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. God is the Creator, and yet, all things are made by Christ. All have the same "will". The Holy Spirit is always interceding for us, always praying for us, always coming before the throne of God in perfect harmony with God's will. The Spirit is the one who works out that will of God and that desire of Christ by holding on to us, interceding for us incessantly as the great priest who dwells within us. All things are working together for good because the Holy Spirit is interceding for us, because the Son at the right hand of God is interceding for us. The outcome is not based on my Faith or my will but rather God's will for my life as I serve Him on this earth.

[probinson]

I submit this to you,

Jesus and the Father had separate wills when He was here on earth.

Jesus in the garden prayed " saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

If they were the same - He would not have had to sanctify Himself to His Father's will.


Now there's some food for thought that will mess up someone's theology... ;)

But I don't think that shows that they had "separate" wills, exactly. It shows just how much Jesus wanted His will to conform and be identical to the will of the Father.

[enoch son]

If one reads this in the greek it go something like this. "Father there sin is coming on me to fast I think I'm not going to make it. But you do our will"

[JimfromOhio]

Now there's some food for thought that will mess up someone's theology... ;)

But I don't think that shows that they had "separate" wills, exactly. It shows just how much Jesus wanted His will to conform and be identical to the will of the Father.
Yeah.. people are messed up on the topic of healing between spiritually healed (eternally saved) and physically healed (temporal healing). ;)

[JimfromOhio]

If one reads this in the greek it go something like this. "Father there sin is coming on me to fast I think I'm not going to make it. But you do our will"
This kind of thinking will always get someone in trouble with God. Whatever happened to be "spirit-filled" and relying on the Holy Spirit to resist temptations? :cool:

[enoch son]

This kind of thinking will always get someone in trouble with God. Whatever happened to be "spirit-filled" and relying on the Holy Spirit to resist temptations? :cool: So without your help it wasn't once and for all? that sure be littles the son of god doesn't it? But what the hack it was only His blood our mouths are more powerful then his blood. NOT!

[nephilimiyr]

Even Jesus did not heal at will …
Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5.19)
What do you think?

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.


Hi Jim :wave:

No, Jesus didn't heal at His own will but in conjunction with the will of His Father. He copies what He sees His Father doing. What is His Father doing? Look at who the Father is. The Father is all merciful, longsuffering, and loving. If that is true the Father will be doing things that prove those points. Likewise The Son will also.

Is there a difference between what God wills and what God desires? I for one don't believe that what God desires is always what God recieves. He is longsuffering though and willing to wait to recieve what He desires.

I believe it was not God's desire for Adam and Eve to sin, but they did.

So healing; I do believe that God desires that all who need healing will be healed, but as we all know, there are things standing in the way of God's desire. Is it God's desire that everyone comes to believe in Him and be born again? Yes, but is that what happends? I don't believe so. Is it God's desire that all handicaped people walk? yes but is that what happends? No.

Just some thoughts...

[enoch son]

So much for the saying "MY FATHER AND I ARE ONE"

[nephilimiyr]

So much for the saying "MY FATHER AND I ARE ONE"
I don't believe anyone here has said anything that would disagree with the doctrine of the trinity.

[enoch son]

Thats the point what do you think He saw out of His eyes some little green men saying over here? He saw what the father saw the same thing. It was the same will.

[JimfromOhio]

Hi Jim :wave:

No, Jesus didn't heal at His own will but in conjunction with the will of His Father. He copies what He sees His Father doing. What is His Father doing? Look at who the Father is. The Father is all merciful, longsuffering, and loving. If that is true the Father will be doing things that prove those points. Likewise The Son will also.

Is there a difference between what God wills and what God desires? I for one don't believe that what God desires is always what God recieves. He is longsuffering though and willing to wait to recieve what He desires.

I believe it was not God's desire for Adam and Eve to sin, but they did.

So healing; I do believe that God desires that all who need healing will be healed, but as we all know, there are things standing in the way of God's desire. Is it God's desire that everyone comes to believe in Him and be born again? Yes, but is that what happends? I don't believe so. Is it God's desire that all handicaped people walk? yes but is that what happends? No.

Just some thoughts...

John Wesley explained perfect about Trinity. "Tell me how it is that in this room there are three candles and but one light, and I will explain to you the mode of the divine existence."

The Holy Spirit is within us which is the same as God is in us as we describe to others that we have Jesus in our hearts. The Spirit is our intercessor, our personal indwelling intercessor interceding according to the will of God. The Father will always hear and always answer the intercessory prayer of the Spirit because the Spirit always prays according to God's will and God always does His will.

Romans 8:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=26&version=31&context=verse)
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

Matthew 26:41 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=26&verse=41&version=31&context=verse)
"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

Ephesians 6:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=6&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

Jude 1:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=72&chapter=1&verse=20&version=31&context=verse)
But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.

[LeadWorship]

The Word of Knowledge is a good manifestation of the Spirit - but why can't you just talk to the Father and have Him tell you out of your relationship with Him?

I don't pray for people's healings - there's no scriptural support for asking God in prayer to heal anyone. The disciples were not told to pray for peoples healings:

Luke 9:1 When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
Jesus didn't tell them to ask, Jesus said nothing about it being God's will or not - He simply gave them the authority and then told them to go heal the sick. And they did.

Luke 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
72 OTHERS - not even the disciples - Jesus sent them out - to do what?


8"When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.'
Jesus didn't tell them to ask, Jesus said nothing about it being God's will or not - He simply gave them the authority and then told them to go heal the sick. And they did.

Acts 3:1 One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer—at three in the afternoon. 2 Now a man crippled from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those going into the temple courts. 3 When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money. 4 Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, "Look at us!" 5 So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them. 6 Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." 7 Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man's feet and ankles became strong. 8 He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God. 9 When all the people saw him walking and praising God,
The man got healed by Peter's words and actions, but Peter NEVER asked God to heal him - Peter never asked if it was God's will to heal the man - he just used his authority and healed the man.

That's what's missing today - that's where we are missing it!

The deep personal day to day relationship with God the Father through Jesus. So personal and so deep that we can instantly know His will and help people. So deep and personal that we interact with Father just like Jesus, the one we're called to imitate, did.

But instead of the multiple multiple examples of how Jesus and the disciples healed through this relationship-, we've reduced knowing God's will to trial and error -

Well, if we pray and we don't see them ......, God must be trying to teach them something - or it must not be God's will.

We have pastors in pulpits that admit they don't know what the will of God is, never seeing this:

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

I've been thrown out of Word of Faith circles because I preached this hard. We're not just supposed to know His will - but prove it.

It's time we got off our high horse of (I think this might be why), and got on our knees and spent real time fellowshipping with the Father so we can train ourselves to hear His voice.


Awesome Post, Brother! I agree 100%, and Praise God that you are preaching this. Have you had the chance to read the book The Crucified Ones ? It very much hits on what you just described above! Hallelujah! Preach it brother!

[nephilimiyr]

John Wesley explained perfect about Trinity. "Tell me how it is that in this room there are three candles and but one light, and I will explain to you the mode of the divine existence."

The Holy Spirit is within us which is the same as God is in us as we describe to others that we have Jesus in our hearts. The Spirit is our intercessor, our personal indwelling intercessor interceding according to the will of God. The Father will always hear and always answer the intercessory prayer of the Spirit because the Spirit always prays according to God's will and God always does His will.

Romans 8:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=26&version=31&context=verse)
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

Matthew 26:41 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=26&verse=41&version=31&context=verse)
"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

Ephesians 6:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=6&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

Jude 1:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=72&chapter=1&verse=20&version=31&context=verse)
But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.

I didn't say anything in my post about the trinity, faith, or praying in the Holy Spirit. None of what you wrote here pertains to anything that I wrote. I was talking about the desire and will of God, not the trinity.
Perhaps you'd like to try again?

[pinetree]

HEALING debates which twist people's stomachs in knots and give them indigestion!!! :D I LOVE IT!!!!
:D:D:D

[PK For Real]

The issue of faith is an age old debate that many so called "faith healers" have taken advantage of. The fact of the matter is this: God will not heal anyone whom he does not deem worthy. I have been in church all of my life and I have seen some miraculous healing, however, those healing feats are purely a result of God's will to do so. I have seen people with the genuine gift of faith. People that really believed that God can and will do anything. Yet those individuals are unable to will God's power to do something that he doesn't want to do. We see God as having two types of wills, his perfect will and his permissive will. God's divine will is what HE want's to happen in our lives and his permissive will is what he allows to happen. Permissive will is activated mostly out of His soft heart and His pleading to the cries of his people. Even though his divine will may at the time state otherwise and of course he has other plans, he will allow many times what we ask because as any good parent should be, he wants to see his children happy with what they perceive as happiness. Ultimately his perfect will be accomplished.

We need look any further than Hezekiah. It was time for Hezekiah to die. It was God's perfect will for him to do so. He prayed to God for more years and before he got too far after praying, God granted him 15 more years. So in the end, God's perfect will was done. In another instance we see the opposite with Apostle Paul. He prayed for many years for God to remove the thorn from his flesh and God told him no, "My grace is sufficient for you." Paul, as we know was a man of tremendous faith, yet his faith was not able to supercede the perfect will of God. Even if God grants a reprieve from his perfect will, He still wields his permissive will which is still His will.

The point is that no matter how much we believe, it all boils down to what God wants. Yes there are times when God will prolong his inevetable perfect will and offer us his permissive will, but in the end His Will will be done.

[GrapeGirl]

Even Jesus did not heal at will …
Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5.19)

What do you think?

~Jim
I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.





I think that's a really nice way to tell me I was wrong. ;)

[Angel*Eyes]

we see someone who doesn't get healed and instead of hearing specifically from God on the matter - we just assume that if they didn't get healed, God must not want them to be.


Good point!

I heard of this guy who was paralyzed for 17 years, had multiple sclerosis,diabetes, high cholesterol, high triglycerides, and scar tissue on his brain. His plan was to suffer gloriously for God.

He accepted the fact that he wasn't going to get healed and even started writing a book on how to die gracefully.

Things changed after hearing a sermon titled " Healing is for you".
When he started to read the healing scriptures in the bible, his faith increased. And one day he ended up getting miraculously healed!


My personal story-
I suffered from a condition for years which cut out the likelihood for me to ever have kids. I accepted my condition and believed that it wasn't God's Will for me not to have kids. So, I was planning to adopt kids whenever I got married. Suddenly, I got healed after dealing with
the problem for more than four years.

[Jimbeaux]

we see someone who doesn't get healed and instead of hearing specifically from God on the matter - we just assume that if they didn't get healed, God must not want them to be.
Or we assume the opposite. ;) I mean. this sword cuts both ways.

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.

[pinetree]

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x182/Shadowtiger5891/Sakura%20Hospital%20RP/new_hospital_acroom_112.jpg

I dont know if this person had faith or not?:o

[Angel*Eyes]

Therefore, Faith is a confidence that God will actually someday heal us here on earth or in Heaven

Faith is the title deed to the future. Faith is the foundation believing that the promises of God yet to come to pass will come to pass.



... Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. {Matthew 6:10} In heaven, there is no lack, no sin, and no sickness.

The good news is that we don't have to wait until we get to heaven to experience the healing God has promised!!


Jim,

If it's not God's Will to heal everyone on the earth, then why should we expect everyone in heaven to be healed?

The above scripture clearly shows that God wants His will to be done in heaven and on the Earth.

[Jimbeaux]

... Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. {Matthew 6:10} In heaven, there is no lack, no sin, and no sickness.

The good news is that we don't have to wait until we get to heaven to experience the healing God has promised!!


Jim,

If it's not God's Will to heal everyone on the earth, then why should we expect everyone in heaven to be healed?

The above scripture clearly shows that God wants His will to be done in heaven and on the Earth.

Neither are there churches in heaven, nor television ministries, healing, salvation, heartache, pain, tears and a lot of other things.

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.

[Angel*Eyes]

Neither are there churches in heaven, nor television ministries, healing, salvation, heartache, pain, tears and a lot of other things.

~Jim




God wants His Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven (not the opposite way around).

Since there is no sickness in Heaven, it is God's will that believers on earth should be healed of all sickness.

[Jimbeaux]

God wants His Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven (not the opposite way around).

Since there is no sickness in Heaven, it is God's will that believers on earth should be healed of all sickness.

If that is so (as you state it), please explain why so many of God’s children are sick, stay sick and why our bodies wear out as we age?

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.

[Angel*Eyes]

Problem: Sin brought sickness.
Solution: blood of Jesus


People see themselves carrying sickness rather than seeing it being carried by Jesus on the cross..

[Jimbeaux]

Problem: Sin brought sickness.
Solution: blood of Jesus


People see themselves carrying sickness rather than seeing it being carried by Jesus on the cross..

But … please explain why so many of God’s children—who are bought by the blood of Jesus—are sick, stay sick and why our bodies wear out as we age?

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.

[Angel*Eyes]

But … please explain why so many of God’s children—who are bought by the blood of Jesus—sick, stay sick

lack of knowledge of position in Christ

[JimfromOhio]

I didn't say anything in my post about the trinity, faith, or praying in the Holy Spirit. None of what you wrote here pertains to anything that I wrote. I was talking about the desire and will of God, not the trinity.
Perhaps you'd like to try again?
I am going to start with David, learning from David's experiences, God meets us in our heart rather than our mind therefore we need to focus on the "heart of the matter". "David son of Jesse is a man after my own heart, for he will do everything I want him to do." Acts 13:22 & 1 Samuel 13:14 (NLT). There are many reasons why God proclaimed that David's heart is what He desire from us. Reading 1 John 3:16, This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.

One good example of David's love:
David's best friend, Jonathan son of Saul had a son named Mephibosheth who was lame in both feet. What did David do with this young man?

Read 2 Samuel 9, I will quote 3 verses of the chapter:

Quote:
"Don't be afraid," David said to him, "for I will surely show you kindness for the sake of your father Jonathan. I will restore to you all the land that belonged to your grandfather Saul, and you will always eat at my table."

Mephibosheth bowed down and said, "What is your servant, that you should notice a dead dog like me?"

Mephibosheth ate at David's table like one of the king's sons.

Regarding healing....
In Ecclesiastes says "A right time to get sick and another to heal."

Our hearts are like a garden and must be kept free from weeds and insects. To expect the fruits and flowers bloom in an untended heart is to misunderstand completely the processes of Grace and God's will. We need to understand what God desires, not what man desires. Proverbs 13:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=13&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
The sluggard craves and gets nothing, but the desires of the diligent are fully satisfied.

I don't really know if its God's will for me to be healed however, biblically, I do KNOW what God wants from me according to His written word. By faith, can anyone able to walk on WATER? I have the ability to walk on water only if its according to God's will.

It is God's will for us to be Saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9)
1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

It is God's will for us to be Spirit-filled (Ephesians 5:17-18)
Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

We all have to come to the understanding that while God wants us to be Spirit-filled that God's loving desire that we should reflect His own holiness and goodness, NOT our own goodness.

It is God's will for us to be Sanctified (1 Thessalonians 4:3-7)
It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.

It is God's will for us to be Submissive (1 Peter 2:13-15)
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men

It is God's will for us to Suffer ( Philippians 1:29; 2 Timothy 3:12)
Philippians 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him
2 Timothy 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

My perspective from what I am reading from the Scriptures, that if we desire honor and glory from God, we must display humility first. I am clearly against faith teachings that teaches that a God who actually hears our prayers and wants to answer them by telling us of the desire of God to heal people of their physical infirmities when often goes unanswered for many Christians.

Psalm 40:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=40&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
I desire to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.

[JimfromOhio]

But … please explain why so many of God’s children—who are bought by the blood of Jesus—sick, stay sick and why our bodies wear out as we age?

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.


"My temorary body is decaying at the same time, my inner being is being renewed day by day" (2 Cor 4:16).

[Jimbeaux]

lack of knowledge of position in Christ

So, it is “knowledge” that heals us. Do we have to have our doctrine straight before God will heal us?

~Jim
I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.

[JimfromOhio]

lack of knowledge of position in Christ
So, after 35+ years being a Christian, I am still not healed based on "lack of knowledge of position in Christ". I disagree. If knowing answers to life's questions is absolutely necessary to us, then forget the journey. We will never make it, for this is a journey of unknowables -- of unanswered questions, enigmas, incomprehensibles, and, most of all, things unfair."

Some have the attitude saying, "I have the knowledge and how God have blessed me with that knowledge. One of these days you will also come to know and have the same knowledge and that is when you will know the TRUTH."

I can have GREAT knowledge but if I don't have spiritual wisdom, my knowledge is worthless. Spiritual wisdom sees everything in focus and be able to trust God no matter what happens. If Christ is the wisdom of God and the power of God in the experience of those who trust and love Him, there needs no further argument of His Divinity.

"A man may be theologically knowing and spiritually ignorant" Charnock, Stephen

There is head knowledge, head and heart and just heart knowledge. In knowing God (not just about Him) the heart must be involved. A.W. Tozer

I love this verse, Titus 1:2 that said "a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time."

Proverbs 2:10 For wisdom will enter your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I know a lady who is a hypochondriac and chooses to be ill, even if if she has to fake it, because it serves her felt need for attention. When she is “sick” (real or imagined), people who are not wise to her show her more attention and concern than otherwise and so it serves her emotional needs to be physically ill for the emotional value the attention gains her.
And what should that tell us? HMMM?

Sounds to Moriah like a simple enough case with a simple enough solution: that woman needs others around her in her life who will make her feel cherished, important, like she matters, as much or more when she bes well as when she bes infirm. No one should have to be ill before others give them the freaking time of day. :(

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Or we assume the opposite. ;) I mean. this sword cuts both ways.
exactly.

[DiscipleWhomJesusLoves]

Even Jesus did not heal at will …Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5.19)
What do you think?

~Jim
I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.



Jesus and the Father are one, so whenever the Father willed it, Jesus healed at will. :thumbsup:

With such negative and pathetic threads on "why God doesn't heal you" or "why you aren't healed" no wonder so many aren't receiving what belongs to them thru the blood of Christ. Such threads just complement the devil's work!

[Trish1947]

JimfromOhio..Faith is the title deed to the future. Faith is the foundation believing that the promises of God yet to come to pass will come to pass.

And we can be given this one other step..Faith is the title deed given to us in the past that assures your now. "Now" faith is the substance hoped for. The evidence of things not yet seen." Thy will be done on earth, as it is in Heaven. If your in Heaven where no sickness dwells, it is something that is seen, where no faith is required, then how was Gods will accomplished on earth? Most Christians are already convienced that things are perfect in Heaven, no problem there.

[Angel*Eyes]

Jimfromohio & Jimbeaux,

When I use the word 'knowledge"- I mean just knowing deep within you that God loves you & wants you to be healed in EVERY area of your life.

It's not about man-made knowledge, doctrines, or any formula to follow.

I didn't mean any harm by my posts. I just want all to experience God's love and all that it contains. I don't want anyone to settle for less. I'm passionate about this topic since I love visiting people in the hospitals and believe that God has given me a heart for the sick and hurting.

I'm all about just resting in God's love and letting Him have control. I am learning to not fret over the how's and why's of life ...that will only lead to flustration.

Just enjoy life and believe that before you leave this earth, that you'll expericence All that God has in store for you.

I would rather believe God and receive 45% of His promises than to limit God and get nothing. As a child of God, I just want to rejoice in all Truth, bear all things, believe all things, hope all things, and endure all things (1 corinthians 13:6-7).

Be blessed

[The Lord is my banner]

Originally Posted by Jimbeaux http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47653730#post47653730)
I know a lady who is a hypochondriac and chooses to be ill, even if if she has to fake it, because it serves her felt need for attention. When she is “sick” (real or imagined), people who are not wise to her show her more attention and concern than otherwise and so it serves her emotional needs to be physically ill for the emotional value the attention gains her.


And what should that tell us? HMMM?

Sounds to Moriah like a simple enough case with a simple enough solution: that woman needs others around her in her life who will make her feel cherished, important, like she matters, as much or more when she bes well as when she bes infirm. No one should have to be ill before others give them the freaking time of day. :(


:amen:

When doing my nursing training I did a placement at a psychiatric hospital. A woman in her seventies would lay herself on the floor because she was unable to receive the attention she needed. It was heart-rending, because the behaviour modification treatment for this was to behave as if she didn't exist. Staff would literally step over her when she blocked the corridor.

I was young and didn't know the Lord, I was full of fear of rejection by those same staff,and of losing my job if I didn't toe the line, but none of that excuses the fact that I too gave her scant attention. It was inhuman.

I wonder if their "treatment" ever resulted in her finding peace? :(


Maybe when she was a tiny baby her mother was taught that you must ignore crying and leave baby in the crib to console itself?
When will we learn LOVE?

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

When doing my nursing training I did a placement at a psychiatric hospital. A woman in her seventies would lay herself on the floor because she was unable to receive the attention she needed. It was heart-rending, because the behaviour modification treatment for this was to behave as if she didn't exist. Staff would literally step over her when she blocked the corridor.

I was young and didn't know the Lord, I was full of fear of rejection by those same staff,and of losing my job if I didn't toe the line, but none of that excuses the fact that I too gave her scant attention. It was inhuman.

I wonder if their "treatment" ever resulted in her finding peace? :(

Maybe when she was a tiny baby her mother was taught that you must ignore crying and leave baby in the crib to console itself?
When will we learn LOVE?
Human society bes full of despicable toxic programming like this and the WORST of it bes that the majority regard that toxic filth as NORMAL!!! :o :eek: :sick:

WHY do humans insist upon punishing people who bes starving for some scrap of freaking affection and validation? Do we really imagine that will help? What stops a starving person from diving into a dumpster for scraps of food EXCEPT feeding them a proper meal on a regular basis??? Get a clue humans, the FED don't do these "bad" behaviors ONLY THE STARVING. The "CURE" therefore (if you really cannot stand the behaviors) bes NOT to punish the behaviors but to FEED THE NEED THAT DRIVES THEM!!! Once that need bes FED there will be no more energy, purpose or motivation behind the behaviors you find so "disgusting" and they will simply FALL OFF IN TIME!!!! Granted, your starving person might take some TIME to reassure them that the "food supply" will not dry up and walk away (and if you givesy such assurance you'd BEST be followsy through human!!! :mad:) BUT if we bes NOT weary in well doing we SHALL reap in due time -- that bes HIS promise. WHY do we not trust Him and give ppls what they bes HUNGRY for instead of punishing them for acting a little "crazy" due to starvation?????????

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

OH DEAR!!! Sue, it bes ever so sorry -- it went to REP your post and hit the REPORT button instead and it bes so "out of it" it did not even register it bes putting its comment in the WRONG BOX!!
Mods, very sorry for the mixup!! :o

[The Lord is my banner]

OH DEAR!!! Sue, it bes ever so sorry -- it went to REP your post and hit the REPORT button instead and it bes so "out of it" it did not even register it bes putting its comment in the WRONG BOX!!
Mods, very sorry for the mixup!! :o

ROFLOL! ^_^ The buttons are so close together I've almost done that a few times.
Sorry you're feeling "out of it" though. :hug:

(Thanks for finding the real rep button in the end! :))

[Jimbeaux]

Attention Mods.

Please be aware that people are disagreeing (debating) with me in this thread. Isn’t that a breach of the rules? Doesn’t the new rule say that whatever thread I open people have to agree with and to only do their debating in the new debate thread?

Personally, I think that will make this forum pretty lame, but, hey, rules are rules.

Wait!. Come to think of it, there are a lot of controversial positions (like this one) I can make with impunity if I just open it in the shape of a new thread where no one can disagree with me.

This just might work out great!!

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.

[probinson]

Don't worry. I'm sure this thread will promptly be moved to the new "Debate" area, and then we won't have to agree with you anymore. ;)

[CryoftheNation]

Attention Mods.

Please be aware that people are disagreeing (debating) with me in this thread. Isn’t that a breach of the rules? Doesn’t the new rule say that whatever thread I open people have to agree with and to only do their debating in the new debate thread?

Personally, I think that will make this forum pretty lame, but, hey, rules are rules.

Wait!. Come to think of it, there are a lot of controversial positions (like this one) I can make with impunity if I just open it in the shape of a new thread where no one can disagree with me.

This just might work out great!!

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.



It may just be that they're agreeing to disagree?

:blush::doh::confused:

[razzelflabben]

How does anyone know what a person actually believes in their heart? That's one thing that many people have said, that they believed this, or they believe that, because they confessed it. Nobody knows what a person actually believes in their heart. I don't know what all my husband believes from his heart and we have been married for 46 years.
The heart of man is God area. And I cannot answer this because I have no idea whats present in the heart, and what the reasons are. But God knows. Not all confessions made, is from the heart. Alot of times it's nothing more than mental assent, with confession from the mouth, with very little to do with actual heart level belief.Where I agree with you on this matter, I reread my post and understood it the way I wrote it, maybe that is just because I know what I was saying, so let's try it this way. The man confesses and acts as if he believes he is healed, but when it comes right down to it, he falls back into alcohol and the sicknesses that come from that alcohol. Does that make better sense?

[razzelflabben]

To believe that Jesus did not heal at will, you would have to believe that Jesus' will and the Father's will are (or could be) different.

Jesus and the Father (and the Holy Spirit), are ONE. Therefore, they can not have contradictory wills.

So as it pertains to this topic, there was never a time when Jesus wanted to heal someone and the Father didn't, or vice versa.are you sure about that? Jesus was fully human, he had the same emotions and desires, and thoughts as every human has, but he was also God. So the question then becomes 1. was Jesus fully human or 2. did He have to trust the Spirit to keep those feeling and desires in check, and Godly.

Now one of the first places to go for this answer is the garden when Jesus prayed that this cup would pass from Him, what we see is a very human response. I don't want to do this. But we also see a man who allowed the Spirit to control those human desires and thoughts, and lived out a Godly life in the Spirit, accepting fully the authority of God not His own desires and thoughts.

[razzelflabben]

I don't believe the topic is if Jesus wills to heal. It is His will, but was He able to always carry out that will. He did not, because not everybody was healed.




I gave up my attachments to this life over two decades ago. It was only when I had my own family that I found a reason to stay, but at some point, my kids will grow and move on. I'll no longer be needed and it will be time for me to move on.

Should I reach that point and some life-threatening sickness come on me, I can honestly say my desire is to depart and I would not seek healing. I can't imagine any reason why I'd want to stay.I can think of some reasons for you to stay, but my comment is more about Paul and his desire to be with Christ and yet, he knows that staying here is gain. Powerful words that should come into mind every time someone is very ill.

[JimfromOhio]

My definition of faith healing relies solely upon God alone, His will alone and not mine. Whether or not you are physically healed is ultimately left to the sovereign will of God. Nowhere does God promise to heal us from "old age" which God allow our bodies to decay which leads to terminal illness to bring His people home to heaven.

If everything is God's will, why do these people pray so hard? Under what conditions does He do it?

Faith is not a force but is, rather, a person's commitment to repent from sin and to live a life of holiness with a desire to please God. The focus is on what we can get from God rather than on how we can change our habits, actions, words, and thoughts to become more pleasing to God. Doctrinal teachings that teaches man can command the Holy Spirit at "will" to do miracles and healing, and God will obey. Why should God obey our will? This is not about faith in relation to "getting what you want" but faith in WHO and at HIS will.

Faith is not self-effort but rather from within. Since faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit by the conviction to submit into action, we are focus on our faith based on obedience to holiness, adding to our faith and fruit of the spirit through grace. Working on of faith means nothing if you don't act on your faith. If you don't act, then you don't have faith. Faith is indeed the title deed for things hoped for. Saving faith is placed in something that was promised to happen. Faith is believing something that God promises will happen, not because we will it to happen, but because He PROMISED THEY will happen.

Certainly God wishes to grace us with blessing but are we guaranteed blessings of health? I have explored the doctrines of "faith healing" over the years and I discovered the scriptural as well as the unscriptural kinds of faith healing. God's invitation to His family to ask Him for healing is one of the most wonderful, loving and caring provisions He had made for us. We have to remember its not how to believe but rather who to believe in. Faith is accepting God's Will. There is confusion between the determined Will of God and a Christian's responsibility as a Christian. The Holy Spirit is within us which is the same as God is in us as we describe to others that we have Jesus in our hearts. The Spirit is our intercessor, our personal indwelling intercessor interceding according to the will of God. The Father will always hear and always answer the intercessory prayer of the Spirit because the Spirit always prays according to God's will and God always does His will.

Final thoughts on doctrinal issues of faith healing. I am clearly against faith teachings that teaches that a God who actually hears our prayers and wants to answer them by telling us of the desire of God to heal people of their physical infirmities when often goes unanswered for many Christians. When miracles often occurred, God allowed Stephen to be stoned ( Acts 7:59-60 ) and James to be beheaded. My main issue is this: Is divine healing an important doctrine that leads people to false hope or understanding God's will whether they are healed or not? I am NEVER comfortable telling people about such doctrines and I don't want to be responsible for decieving another person when I share the good news of eternal salvation. I am careful when it comes to healing doctrines. When one don't know why one is not healed, it is better not to explore or try to understand by creating doctrines.

[probinson]

When one don't know why one is not healed, it is better not to explore or try to understand by creating doctrines.
You do realize that your entire post before this statement explains your doctrine on why you believe people aren't healed...

[JimfromOhio]

You do realize that your entire post before this statement explains your doctrine on why you believe people aren't healed...
Pete, I am reminded in Hebrews. 13:9, "Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace...". Webster defines "heresy" as, "an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards."

Man's doctrines often gets in the way of the doctrine of truth. The Bible is truth while doctrines are taught by man which means "Faith Healing" doctrines are created by men based on their own interpretations.

I am not a perfect Christian but I am a forgiven Christian who is still learning. I have learned that there is NO perfect man's doctrines. Our Christian life exemplifies what the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints means in the life of a faltering believer. In the Christian life, thinking is crucial, emotions are crucial and doctrines are crucial. I don't know from flesh point of view whether the doctrines I follow are 100% true unless I allow the Holy Spirit to convict my heart to follow certain doctrines. Doctrines sounds very good and simple but life is not so simple. I have learned to be careful how I read and need to look from doctrinal perspective rather than each of our own satisfaction. By nature, we are all heretics. Christianity will always be running against the prevailing movement of society with individualistic doctrinal beliefs. We are in the world of self-deceit that we are too focused on ourselves to see the eternal truth. People often unconsciously select for special attention certain Scriptures that they are familiar with that they forget to check to see the Scriptures for deeper study. Lack of balance scripturally is often the direct consequence of overemphasis on certain favorite passages while ignoring others that are related.

What I can is knowing God is through right thinking about God which is very essential to true intimacy with Him. All we can know with any certainty about God is what is revealed in Scripture. I know the true God in the true way is thoroughly familiar with His Word which is the Bible. Whatever doctrines others believe may not be essentials for my relationship with God whether they agree with me or not. If I don't view certain doctrines (i.e. faith healing) as the essentials of Christian life and practice simply because of the motives in our Christian lives should be both holy and genuine from God's perspective, not ours.

I believe in healing and God does heal. However, I am not comfortable with certain faith healing doctrines that are being promoted in this forum.

[enoch son]

Pete, I am reminded in Hebrews. 13:9, "Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace...". Webster defines "heresy" as, "an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards."

Man's doctrines often gets in the way of the doctrine of truth. The Bible is truth while doctrines are taught by man which means "Faith Healing" doctrines are created by men based on their own interpretations.

I am not a perfect Christian but I am a forgiven Christian who is still learning. I have learned that there is NO perfect man's doctrines. Our Christian life exemplifies what the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints means in the life of a faltering believer. In the Christian life, thinking is crucial, emotions are crucial and doctrines are crucial. I don't know from flesh point of view whether the doctrines I follow are 100% true unless I allow the Holy Spirit to convict my heart to follow certain doctrines. Doctrines sounds very good and simple but life is not so simple. I have learned to be careful how I read and need to look from doctrinal perspective rather than each of our own satisfaction. By nature, we are all heretics. Christianity will always be running against the prevailing movement of society with individualistic doctrinal beliefs. We are in the world of self-deceit that we are too focused on ourselves to see the eternal truth. People often unconsciously select for special attention certain Scriptures that they are familiar with that they forget to check to see the Scriptures for deeper study. Lack of balance scripturally is often the direct consequence of overemphasis on certain favorite passages while ignoring others that are related.

What I can is knowing God is through right thinking about God which is very essential to true intimacy with Him. All we can know with any certainty about God is what is revealed in Scripture. I know the true God in the true way is thoroughly familiar with His Word which is the Bible. Whatever doctrines others believe may not be essentials for my relationship with God whether they agree with me or not. If I don't view certain doctrines (i.e. faith healing) as the essentials of Christian life and practice simply because of the motives in our Christian lives should be both holy and genuine from God's perspective, not ours.

I believe in healing and God does heal. However, I am not comfortable with certain faith healing doctrines that are being promoted in this forum.This would make sense if it was the heresy of man to begian with.

[JimfromOhio]

This would make sense if it was the heresy of man to begian with.
Especially when explaining to those who are strong Christians that are not healed. Faith healing doctrines should be questioned and studied.

It is my responsibility as a Christian to discern and I don't want to be gullible. I can either be gullible or discerner. I choose to be a discerner. :wave:

[Jimbeaux]

I’ve seen people who did not have enough “faith” to pay their rent receive miraculous healing. “Faith” (at least as a certain group in this forum is teaching it), has little to do with healing.

Oops. Am I debating?

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.

[nephilimiyr]

Hi Jim :wave:

No, Jesus didn't heal at His own will but in conjunction with the will of His Father. He copies what He sees His Father doing. What is His Father doing? Look at who the Father is. The Father is all merciful, longsuffering, and loving. If that is true the Father will be doing things that prove those points. Likewise The Son will also.

Is there a difference between what God wills and what God desires? I for one don't believe that what God desires is always what God recieves. He is longsuffering though and willing to wait to recieve what He desires.

I believe it was not God's desire for Adam and Eve to sin, but they did.

So healing; I do believe that God desires that all who need healing will be healed, but as we all know, there are things standing in the way of God's desire. Is it God's desire that everyone comes to believe in Him and be born again? Yes, but is that what happends? I don't believe so. Is it God's desire that all handicaped people walk? yes but is that what happends? No.

Just some thoughts...
Once again I get totally ignored. Maybe instead of starting my posts off to Jim with a friendly greeting I should cuss and swear at him first?

[pinetree]

Once again I get totally ignored. Maybe instead of starting my posts off to Jim with a friendly greeting I should cuss and swear at him first?
brother pinetree reads em ....:thumbsup:

[JimfromOhio]

Once again I get totally ignored. Maybe instead of starting my posts off to Jim with a friendly greeting I should cuss and swear at him first?
I did answer your question and perhaps you dismissed my answer. Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all in one. While Christ was on earth, He was submitting to Father and Holy Spirit. Concept of Trinity is important.

I was not ignoring your question and I would say you were ignoring my answer. :wave:

[enoch son]

Once again I get totally ignored. Maybe instead of starting my posts off to Jim with a friendly greeting I should cuss and swear at him first?
Ha It works for me LOL. ^_^

[JimfromOhio]

Ha It works for me LOL. ^_^
I am sure you have something in mind that you wanted to say. ;):P^_^

:wave:

[probinson]

Oops. Am I debating?


It's your thread.

Would that be like debating with yourself?

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h128/petesarah/Smilies/smileys52.gif

[Balance]

Once again I get totally ignored. Maybe instead of starting my posts off to Jim with a friendly greeting I should cuss and swear at him first?

You are not alone there -

[razzelflabben]

Once again I get totally ignored. Maybe instead of starting my posts off to Jim with a friendly greeting I should cuss and swear at him first?I'm not Jim, but I'll give it a go.

No, Jesus didn't heal at His own will but in conjunction with the will of His Father. He copies what He sees His Father doing. What is His Father doing? Look at who the Father is. The Father is all merciful, longsuffering, and loving. If that is true the Father will be doing things that prove those points. Likewise The Son will also.[/quote]Many people make the mistake of assuming to use the same premise as God does when they don't even know what God's purpose is. Do you know what God's purpose since the beginning of time was? Have you studied this yet? The bible tells us that God's purpose from the beginning of time and for eternity is that the natural man and the spiritual man would live in peace with one another. Be married to one another as it were. This happens when we yield the fleshly, evil desires of the flesh over to the spirit. Allowing the spirit to be the head, and the flesh to be in submission to that head. This can only occur through the Lord Jesus Christ. Now we can take this one step further yet. God's purpose in all this is that we will be blameless, pure, undefiled. In other words, God's purpose for man is not that man would never suffer, never know sickness, never... His purpose is that man would learn to yeild the old man to the spiritual man thus living as one, without war. If this is done through suffering so be it, if it is done through healing, that is cool to. The point is what event will bring this about for the individual but rather that the individual does this because of and through the Christ.

So let's apply this understanding to life. We can see it in the bible as well as in modern day, Paul for example, learned to be content in both excess and want. Job learned to see God in prosperity as well as famine. Joseph saw God in slavery as well as a position of authority. On and on it goes. Even in my own life, I have seen God and learned to yeild to Him in both the good and the bad, the struggles and the seasons of plenty as it were. Over time we allow these situations to bring us a glimpse of God's wonders and His Love and we learn to see Love where we never used to think Love was. (btw, do you know what contentment means? In Paul's writings, it means to be confident that he can do even this)

Is there a difference between what God wills and what God desires? I for one don't believe that what God desires is always what God recieves. He is longsuffering though and willing to wait to recieve what He desires.The desires of man's heart are only evil continually. This biblical concept gives us an interesting view of what God's desire is, His desire is that we would remain in fellowship with Him. That is, that sin would not exist. I don't see Him getting that, do you? God for the most part wants, desires, wills, the opposite of what man wants, desires, wills, so what would make us think even for a fleeting second that our desires, our requests would be the same as God's? It is only when we allow the Holy Spirit and that same spirits Love to transform us, to govern us, to direct us, that our wills, our desires will be the same. That is the point. It isn't our wills, our desires, nor was it Christ's wills and desires, but rather God's that brings about the unity of body and soul (spirit) into oneness, which is God's plan from the start to the finish.

I believe it was not God's desire for Adam and Eve to sin, but they did.

So healing; I do believe that God desires that all who need healing will be healed, but as we all know, there are things standing in the way of God's desire. Is it God's desire that everyone comes to believe in Him and be born again? Yes, but is that what happends? I don't believe so. Is it God's desire that all handicaped people walk? yes but is that what happends? No.I see this theology and wonder what bible some are reading. At least from the standpoint of how it is being presented (practice may or may not present a problem) for example, you talk about God's desire that all who need healing will be healed. Actually the bible is pretty clear that all who come will be healed and that healing is spiritual in nature but that isn't the point I wish to discuss at the moment. The point I wish to discuss at the moment is that of God's purpose, His will. If you do a bit of study on the topic, you soon find that His purpose, His will, is that the physical man and the spiritual man would live in harmony. Therefore, all theology about God's will being healing, or wealth, or whatever we wish to make it, is ourselves and our fleshly desires, not the biblical understanding of who God is and what He desires for us.

The point is this, when we go around inserting our desires, our wills in exchange for God's, our theology gets all messed up and with it comes a host of evils that few of us will ever in this lifetime understand the ramifications of. Now since this is specific about healing, let me say this. This does not mean that God does not heal, nor does it mean that God does not want to heal people. What it means is that God wants us to be complete, none warring individuals and He isn't afraid to use any means of obtaining that for us, not because He is evil, or harsh, or some other nonsence, but because His premise is an eternal one, not a temperal one. He functions in the temporal all the while living in and understanding the eternal one. Thus His ideas of healing are different than the temporal ideas of healing. His ideas of wealth are very different than our temporal ideas of wealth, etc. etc. etc. Until we begin to see things through the eternal eyes of God, all we are doing is trying to be like God and that is someplace I wouldn't want to be.

[JimfromOhio]

I'm not Jim, but I'll give it a go.

No, Jesus didn't heal at His own will but in conjunction with the will of His Father. He copies what He sees His Father doing. What is His Father doing? Look at who the Father is. The Father is all merciful, longsuffering, and loving. If that is true the Father will be doing things that prove those points. Likewise The Son will also.Many people make the mistake of assuming to use the same premise as God does when they don't even know what God's purpose is. Do you know what God's purpose since the beginning of time was? Have you studied this yet? The bible tells us that God's purpose from the beginning of time and for eternity is that the natural man and the spiritual man would live in peace with one another. Be married to one another as it were. This happens when we yield the fleshly, evil desires of the flesh over to the spirit. Allowing the spirit to be the head, and the flesh to be in submission to that head. This can only occur through the Lord Jesus Christ. Now we can take this one step further yet. God's purpose in all this is that we will be blameless, pure, undefiled. In other words, God's purpose for man is not that man would never suffer, never know sickness, never... His purpose is that man would learn to yeild the old man to the spiritual man thus living as one, without war. If this is done through suffering so be it, if it is done through healing, that is cool to. The point is what event will bring this about for the individual but rather that the individual does this because of and through the Christ.

So let's apply this understanding to life. We can see it in the bible as well as in modern day, Paul for example, learned to be content in both excess and want. Job learned to see God in prosperity as well as famine. Joseph saw God in slavery as well as a position of authority. On and on it goes. Even in my own life, I have seen God and learned to yeild to Him in both the good and the bad, the struggles and the seasons of plenty as it were. Over time we allow these situations to bring us a glimpse of God's wonders and His Love and we learn to see Love where we never used to think Love was. (btw, do you know what contentment means? In Paul's writings, it means to be confident that he can do even this)[SIZE=2]The desires of man's heart are only evil continually. This biblical concept gives us an interesting view of what God's desire is, His desire is that we would remain in fellowship with Him. That is, that sin would not exist. I don't see Him getting that, do you? God for the most part wants, desires, wills, the opposite of what man wants, desires, wills, so what would make us think even for a fleeting second that our desires, our requests would be the same as God's? It is only when we allow the Holy Spirit and that same spirits Love to transform us, to govern us, to direct us, that our wills, our desires will be the same. That is the point. It isn't our wills, our desires, nor was it Christ's wills and desires, but rather God's that brings about the unity of body and soul (spirit) into oneness, which is God's plan from the start to the finish.[SIZE=2]I see this theology and wonder what bible some are reading. At least from the standpoint of how it is being presented (practice may or may not present a problem) for example, you talk about God's desire that all who need healing will be healed. Actually the bible is pretty clear that all who come will be healed and that healing is spiritual in nature but that isn't the point I wish to discuss at the moment. The point I wish to discuss at the moment is that of God's purpose, His will. If you do a bit of study on the topic, you soon find that His purpose, His will, is that the physical man and the spiritual man would live in harmony. Therefore, all theology about God's will being healing, or wealth, or whatever we wish to make it, is ourselves and our fleshly desires, not the biblical understanding of who God is and what He desires for us.

The point is this, when we go around inserting our desires, our wills in exchange for God's, our theology gets all messed up and with it comes a host of evils that few of us will ever in this lifetime understand the ramifications of. Now since this is specific about healing, let me say this. This does not mean that God does not heal, nor does it mean that God does not want to heal people. What it means is that God wants us to be complete, none warring individuals and He isn't afraid to use any means of obtaining that for us, not because He is evil, or harsh, or some other nonsence, but because His premise is an eternal one, not a temperal one. He functions in the temporal all the while living in and understanding the eternal one. Thus His ideas of healing are different than the temporal ideas of healing. His ideas of wealth are very different than our temporal ideas of wealth, etc. etc. etc. Until we begin to see things through the eternal eyes of God, all we are doing is trying to be like God and that is someplace I wouldn't want to be.
[/quote]




Good responses. :thumbsup:

[Jimbeaux]

Hi Jim :wave:

No, Jesus didn't heal at His own will but in conjunction with the will of His Father. He copies what He sees His Father doing. What is His Father doing? Look at who the Father is. The Father is all merciful, longsuffering, and loving. If that is true the Father will be doing things that prove those points. Likewise The Son will also.

Is there a difference between what God wills and what God desires? I for one don't believe that what God desires is always what God recieves. He is longsuffering though and willing to wait to recieve what He desires.

I believe it was not God's desire for Adam and Eve to sin, but they did.

So healing; I do believe that God desires that all who need healing will be healed, but as we all know, there are things standing in the way of God's desire. Is it God's desire that everyone comes to believe in Him and be born again? Yes, but is that what happends? I don't believe so. Is it God's desire that all handicaped people walk? yes but is that what happends? No.

Just some thoughts...

Of course Jesus, while He was on earth, had a separate will from the Father or else He would not have been truly human nor would He have had to learn to obey (Heb. 5.8). But though their wills were separate, does not mean that they were opposite. In fact, Jesus was perfectly obedient and willed to do the will of the Father.

But I am not sure you can scripturally prove (without threading scripture) that it is always God’s will, in every instance, to heal. There is no scripture that unambiguously says that. It is a belief that has become dogma among Pentecostals thanks to Russell Kelso Carter c.1884.

~Jim
I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.

[Balance]

I guess I am either on ignore or invisible to j.

[probinson]

The Word of Knowledge is a good manifestation of the Spirit - but why can't you just talk to the Father and have Him tell you out of your relationship with Him?

I don't pray for people's healings - there's no scriptural support for asking God in prayer to heal anyone. The disciples were not told to pray for peoples healings:

Luke 9:1 When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
Jesus didn't tell them to ask, Jesus said nothing about it being God's will or not - He simply gave them the authority and then told them to go heal the sick. And they did.

Luke 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
72 OTHERS - not even the disciples - Jesus sent them out - to do what?


8"When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.'

Jesus didn't tell them to ask, Jesus said nothing about it being God's will or not - He simply gave them the authority and then told them to go heal the sick. And they did.

Acts 3:1 One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer—at three in the afternoon. 2 Now a man crippled from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those going into the temple courts. 3 When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money. 4 Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, "Look at us!" 5 So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them. 6 Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." 7 Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man's feet and ankles became strong. 8 He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God. 9 When all the people saw him walking and praising God,
The man got healed by Peter's words and actions, but Peter NEVER asked God to heal him - Peter never asked if it was God's will to heal the man - he just used his authority and healed the man.

That's what's missing today - that's where we are missing it!

The deep personal day to day relationship with God the Father through Jesus. So personal and so deep that we can instantly know His will and help people. So deep and personal that we interact with Father just like Jesus, the one we're called to imitate, did.

But instead of the multiple multiple examples of how Jesus and the disciples healed through this relationship-, we've reduced knowing God's will to trial and error -

Well, if we pray and we don't see them ......, God must be trying to teach them something - or it must not be God's will.

We have pastors in pulpits that admit they don't know what the will of God is, never seeing this:

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

I've been thrown out of Word of Faith circles because I preached this hard. We're not just supposed to know His will - but prove it.

It's time we got off our high horse of (I think this might be why), and got on our knees and spent real time fellowshipping with the Father so we can train ourselves to hear His voice.

Here you go.

Bumpity bumpity...

Good stuff! :thumbsup:

[Jimbeaux]

I guess I am either on ignore or invisible to j.

I’ve been over in the debate section, P. I am not good at multi-tasking forums. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/92v.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm414YYUS)

What is it you want me to know?

~Jim
I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.









http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb114&pp=ZNxdm414YYUS (http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb114_ZNxdm414YYUS&utm_id=7922)

[Balance]

I’ve been over in the debate section, P. I am not good at multi-tasking forums. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/92v.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm414YYUS)

What is it you want me to know?

~Jim
I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.




I'm not P - I'm B -

I've asked this three time in two threads -

Luke 5 - the Word says plainly that the power of the Lord was present to heal them (the Pharisees and teachers of the law), Jesus was there -

why weren't they healed?

[JimfromOhio]

Here you go.

B