LCMS: Orientation and Population

[NordicLutheran]

I have a couple of questions pertaining to the LCMS. I read an awful lot of news and have noticed that most of the media outlets refer the LCMS as a mainline Protestant denomination, and religious news sites refer to the LCMS as an evangelical Protestant denomination. Most people I know refer to the Missouri Synod as a strict protestant denomination. I can't really picture the LCMS as an evangelical denomination...our strong liturgical tradition doesn't seem like we could fit in with Southern Baptists and non-denoms. Officially what are we??? Oh and why isn't Ablaze getting any numbers. You would think that Pres. K would have the mega churches growing rapidly with all of his emphasis on growth. Personally I think that if we keep with the traditional liturgy and keep education up we'll be fine. I came across a pretty funny bit of information the other day. The ELCA, LCMS, and the Church of England are all about equal with Sunday attendance at about 1 million every Sabbath. The only difference between the 3 bodies is the total membership of course. CoE 30 million ELCA 4.8 million LCMS 2.4 million. I would say we are doing a pretty good job. :thumbsup:

[LilLamb219]

Aren't Lutherans described as the original "evangelicals"?

[QuiltAngel]

Depends on the definition of evangelical. The first meaning when you look it up is: of or according to the teaching of the gospel or the Christian religion.

The word protestant is the one I tend to take objection to. Luther set out to reform the RC church, he was not protesting it. Don't know if that is just me or if others think the same way. I have heard it said that there are Catholics, Lutherans and other Protestants. Don't hear that in the mainstream though.

Why isn't Ablaze working? Good question. One reason could be methodology. Or, it could be asked what is meant by working? If by working we mean getting more into worship and membership on Sunday, then it does not seem to be working.

On the other hand, anytime another person hears of the Gospel message, whether or not they join a church at that time, we are spreading the message. We have at least planted a seed.

I agree with you in keeping our rich liturgy.

[DaRev]

Read this. It's my congregational newsletter article from June.
http://www.stjohnshazleton.org/pastorpage.htm

(Be advised, though, that it will change to the July article in about a week or so.)

[NordicLutheran]

Depends on the definition of evangelical. The first meaning when you look it up is: of or according to the teaching of the gospel or the Christian religion.

The word protestant is the one I tend to take objection to. Luther set out to reform the RC church, he was not protesting it. Don't know if that is just me or if others think the same way. I have heard it said that there are Catholics, Lutherans and other Protestants. Don't hear that in the mainstream though.

Why isn't Ablaze working? Good question. One reason could be methodology. Or, it could be asked what is meant by working? If by working we mean getting more into worship and membership on Sunday, then it does not seem to be working.

On the other hand, anytime another person hears of the Gospel message, whether or not they join a church at that time, we are spreading the message. We have at least planted a seed.

I agree with you in keeping our rich liturgy.

I've just been very concerned about how much the LCMS is embracing the contemporary movement. A big portion of the LCMS has multiple services with most of them being contemporary. I hope this trend doesn't continue. When I am awaiting a call after seminary I'm afraid they will look at my profile and see that I am staunchly against all contemporary services and I won't even get a call lol. What would happen if I got into a situation where I was asked to preside over a contemporary service and I refuse, I mean I don't want to have 8 years of education to be involved in some non-liturgical or contemporary setting? What is going on in the seminaries to help this contemporary problem? Oh, and Rev have you ever had to deal with the contemporary issue?

[DaRev]

Oh, and Rev have you ever had to deal with the contemporary issue?

Yes... for a few months anyway. The service was discontinued.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do CW. I have yet to see one done the right way.

There are many congregations in the LCMS that do not do CW. The seminaries do not teach CW either. Personally, I believe the trend is starting to move away from CW. Younger folks aren't into it like the "Boomers" are.

[NordicLutheran]

Yes... for a few months anyway. The service was discontinued.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do CW. I have yet to see one done the right way.

There are many congregations in the LCMS that do not do CW. The seminaries do not teach CW either. Personally, I believe the trend is starting to move away from CW. Younger folks aren't into it like the "Boomers" are.

An ELCA member was complaining that our service was dry and cultic. She said that you can have fun while praising Jesus. I said that our cultic ritual (the liturgy) came from the apostolic times. Then I said I would rather have a tradition rooted in the apostles rather than a tradition rooted in Rick Warren. :P

[DaRev]

An ELCA member was complaining that our service was dry and cultic. She said that you can have fun while praising Jesus. I said that our cultic ritual (the liturgy) came from the apostolic times. Then I said I would rather have a tradition rooted in the apostles rather than a tradition rooted in Rick Warren. :P

I truly believe that most people just don't know why we go to church on Sunday morning. It's a sign of improper catechesis. People need to realize that Sunday morning service is not about us, it's about God. It's His work, which is why it's called "Divine Service". It's the service or work of the Divine, of God. It's about what He does and continues to do for us. We come to the service on Sunday with broken and contrite hearts, certainly nothing to sing about. We approach the Lord, as called by the Holy Spirit to do (as per the Third Article of the Creed), and we seek His forgiveness through the Means of Grace. Then we give thanks to God for His forgiveness through His means with our prayers, songs, thanksgivings, offerings, etc. It's all in reaction to what He has done first. The whole happy-clappy thing is based upon a flawed theology that says that we have to praise and worship Him in order to receive His grace. It's backwards.

The hymnody and the instrumentation isn't really the issue (unless the songs are theologically flawed, which about 95% of contemporary praise and worship songs are) but rather it's the perspective and reasoning. It confuses people, and when you try and explain to them the reasons why it isn't proper they get all out of sorts. It takes patience and time to re-educate people in the Church. That's something I learned the hard way. If after seminary you get a call to a church that has CW, don't go in like a bull in a China shop or you won't last long in the ministry. It takes patience, love, and time to help people realize the truth.

[BabyLutheran]

Our ELCA church has two traditional services each Sunday, with communion at both. I was very surprised to hear that it is one of the fastest growing in the synod despite being very traditional.

Now that I have experienced traditional, I never care to go to a contemporary service again.

[Zecryphon]

Our ELCA church has two traditional services each Sunday, with communion at both. I was very surprised to hear that it is one of the fastest growing in the synod despite being very traditional.

Now that I have experienced traditional, I never care to go to a contemporary service again.

It changes you, no doubt about it. I remember my first visit to a Lutheran church during a traditional service. It blew me away, it was so focused on Christ and His work and not on me. It was really refreshing. It felt like church used to feel when I was a kid, only now I wasn't coutning the minutes until it was over.

[filosofer]

I've just been very concerned about how much the LCMS is embracing the contemporary movement. A big portion of the LCMS has multiple services with most of them being contemporary. I hope this trend doesn't continue. When I am awaiting a call after seminary I'm afraid they will look at my profile and see that I am staunchly against all contemporary services and I won't even get a call lol. What would happen if I got into a situation where I was asked to preside over a contemporary service and I refuse, I mean I don't want to have 8 years of education to be involved in some non-liturgical or contemporary setting? What is going on in the seminaries to help this contemporary problem? Oh, and Rev have you ever had to deal with the contemporary issue?

While I too prefer the traditional service, perhaps you might consider that God will use you serving in a congregation that has contemporary worship. You can then teach and help them appreciate the beauty of the traditional liturgy. It might take a few years, but what a rich, rewarding experience it will be for them and for you! After all, your role as pastor is as servant to God and the congregation, not master.

[RadMan]

While I too prefer the traditional service, perhaps you might consider that God will use you serving in a congregation that has contemporary worship. You can then teach and help them appreciate the beauty of the traditional liturgy. It might take a few years, but what a rich, rewarding experience it will be for them and for you! After all, your role as pastor is as servant to God and the congregation, not master.

That doesn't seem to agree with what you said about the PLI which makes pastors the opposite of servants and more like papal hierarchy with sacramental rights.

[filosofer]

Where I did I make such a statement about PLI?

Being a servant leader (as Jesus was and so the early disciples) is far different than being a master (i.e. "demanding that a call cannot be given to me because I have to determine the conditions of the call")

[RadMan]

Where I did I make such a statement about PLI?

Being a servant leader (as Jesus was and so the early disciples) is far different than being a master (i.e. "demanding that a call cannot be given to me because I have to determine the conditions of the call")

Maybe my sentence structure was missunderstood.
I said "That doesn't seem to agree with what you said about the PLI" That is my opinion on what you have said about PLI.

"which makes pastors the opposite of servants and more like papal hierarchy with sacramental rights." This is my opinion about PLI.

Your original statement in another thread, which you never responded to, mentions that there are some positive aspects.
Your comment " Well, there might be other reasons, too. You know, like wanting to grow in being the best pastor possible, etc."

and " Well, I did host Steve Wagner for lunch this passed week, as well as listen to his presentation. Am I cautious? Yep. But I can also see benefits for pastors. It does not necessarily imply an ego/power trip for pastors."

The PLI can't present a episcopy presentation of the Office of the Ministry in one breath and then have "benefits for pastors, servant" in another.

[filosofer]

Sorry, Rad, but I am confused. How do my two statements disagree with each other? They disagree with what you wrote about PLI, but my own do not contradict each other.


Unless I am being extremely dense this afternoon... after 15,000 miles of driving and another 10,000 flying in the past three months, nothing would surprise me.

[filosofer]

The PLI can't present a episcopy presentation of the Office of the Ministry in one breath and then have "benefits for pastors, servant" in another.



So you have made the assessment that they teach and promote episcopacy. I didn't make that assessment.

I stand by my contention that my statements do not contradict each other concerning PLI.

[QuiltAngel]

Shouldn't the discussion on PLI be in the PLI thread? Just wondering.

[filosofer]

Shouldn't the discussion on PLI be in the PLI thread? Just wondering.


Yeah, I wasn't intending to write about PLI, until Rad made a comment about my post #11 here and my comments on PLI being contradictory.






Perhaps I will go mow my lawn. :wave:

[RadMan]

Sorry, Rad, but I am confused. How do my two statements disagree with each other? They disagree with what you wrote about PLI, but my own do not contradict each other.


Unless I am being extremely dense this afternoon... after 15,000 miles of driving and another 10,000 flying in the past three months, nothing would surprise me.




So you have made the assessment that they teach and promote episcopacy. I didn't make that assessment.

I stand by my contention that my statements do not contradict each other concerning PLI.




Yeah, I wasn't intending to write about PLI, until Rad made a comment about my post #11 here and my comments on PLI being contradictory.






Perhaps I will go mow my lawn. :wave:


So what are you saying? That PLI is "alright"? Maybe I don't know the full implications of the training program.


Well, there might be other reasons, too. You know, like wanting to grow in being the best pastor possible, etc.


But don't let me spoil the parade. ;)

~sigh~
You're being difficult. I can't make it any clearer.

[filosofer]

:wave:

[RadMan]

:wave:

Sorry---I guess I don't communicate well.

[QuiltAngel]

Yeah, I wasn't intending to write about PLI, until Rad made a comment about my post #11 here and my comments on PLI being contradictory.






Perhaps I will go mow my lawn. :wave:




Yeah, I know, I just couldn't resist an admonishment. Sorry.

A Pet Peeve of mine is how threads get derailed.

[filosofer]

Look on the bright side: I finished mowing the lawn!