How Christianity Started?

[dallasjewishboy]

Does anybody know the answer?

When exactly Jesus was born?
And was Paul really a Saint?

Paul said to drop the Torah - what was he based on when he said that?

:confused:

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Does anybody know the answer?

When exactly Jesus was born?
And was Paul really a Saint?

Paul said to drop the Torah - what was he based on when he said that?

:confused: Yahshua was born ABOUT 4 BC. Saint is a term that mostly Catholics use. Paul was talking about the New Covenant that God would establish through the Messiah.

[dallasjewishboy]

Yahshua was born ABOUT 4 BC. Saint is a term that mostly Catholics use. Paul was talking about the New Covenant that God would establish through the Messiah.

1) About 4 BC - any exact date please? (Sure doesn't exist)
2) Saint - okay, thanks for the headsup.
3) New Covenant and Paul - Paul said to drop the Torah. Where in the bible everywhere does it say there is a new covenant and we need to drop the Torah? Where anywhere, any source says that we need to as Paul said? There is no source and you're welcome to check it everywhere.

Oh, and 4th one if you don't mind

4) Was Jesus a son of God? Please use sources.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

1) About 4 BC - any exact date please? (Sure doesn't exist)
2) Saint - okay, thanks for the headsup.
3) New Covenant and Paul - Paul said to drop the Torah. Where in the bible everywhere does it say there is a new covenant and we need to drop the Torah? Where anywhere, any source says that we need to as Paul said? There is no source and you're welcome to check it everywhere.

Oh, and 4th one if you don't mind

4) Was Jesus a son of God? Please use sources. The disciples of Yahshua said that we are to keep God's commandments. Yahshua said, "I have not come to do away with the laws or prophets, but to fulfill them." According to scripture, all who serve God are called "Sons of God."

[dallasjewishboy]

The disciple of Yahshua said that we are to keep God's commandments. Yahshua said, "I have not come to do away with the laws or prophets, but to fulfill them. According to scripture, all who serve God are called "Sons of God."

Facts for you MTAA:

The New Testament Book of Acts 10:14 records that Peter, whom the Catholic Church regards as its 1st pope, scrupulously observed KASHRUT (=Kosher Food). According to Acts 2:46 and 3:1, Jesus' disciples regularly prayed at the Temple. Jesus' brother, James, dispatched emissaries to teach that every-one born Jewish was required to be circumcised (Acts 15:1, see also Galatians 2:12). He also ordered Paul to observe Jewish law (Acts 21:24). Paul rejected James's command. "We conclude", he taught instead, "that a man is put right with God only through faith and not by doing what the Law commands". (Romans 3:28).

Paul's, not James's, teaching prevailed in Christianity. Consequently, Catholics came to assess people's righteousness in God's eyes primarily by virtue of their faith in Jesus as well as their performance of the sacraments. Protestantism's founder, Martin Luther, differed from the Church only in teaching that faith alone (without sacraments) is sufficient. In On Christian Liberty, a pamphlet he issued in 1520, Luther wrote: "Above all things, bear in mind what I have said, that faith alone without works, justifies, sets free, and saves".

Paul believed, as did the Jews that G-D had given mankind the Torah. However, unlike the Jews, he maintained that people could only be saved if they followed the Torah's law perfectly. Since it is impossible to do so, and since G-D will damn people for any violations whatsoever, the Torah's many laws must be seen as a curse, not a blessing. To be saved, mankind mmust be redeemed from the Law, a redemption which can only come through belief in Jesus (see Galatians 3:10, 21-22, and Romans 3:28).

Judaism rejected virtually every element in Paul's reasoning process. While it advocated complete observance of the Torah, it also recognized that people inevitably would sin (Ecclesiastes 7:20). Well before Jesus and Paul, it had worked out an extensive process for repentance (known in Hebrew as Teshuva). Unfortunately, Paul's claim that G-d damns people for violating any torah law has helped lead many people in the Western world to believe that the G-D of the Hebrew Bible is a harsh, vengeful figure.

As long as the small sect of Christians differed from their fellow Jews only with regard to certain beliefs about Jesus, they remained part of the Jewish community. But once Paul dropped the Torah, and dropped any legal requirements for converting to Judaism, Christianity ceased being a sect and became a separate religion.
From the perspective of Christianity, this made Paul into a great hero, Saint Paul. Most Jews find it hard to regard him with equal adulation.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Psalm 82:6
"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'
Hosea 1:10
"Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'

Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

Acts 2:17
" 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

Romans 8:14
because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Romans 8:19
The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.

Romans 9:26
and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "

Galatians 3:26
[ Sons of God ] You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,

Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

Hebrews 2:10
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Hebrews 12:7
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?

[dallasjewishboy]

Michael, you can read what I said above.

You just quote verses and I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

Galatians 3:26
[ Sons of God ] You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,

You can read my signature about that. Jesus by the way didn't want to start a new religion. If he would be alive today he would go to a synagogue, not a church. Read what I wrote above - it's good info, I'm looking for answers, if you have any, for that.
Thanks.

[Kris10leigh]

Does anybody know the answer?

When exactly Jesus was born?
And was Paul really a Saint?

Paul said to drop the Torah - what was he based on when he said that?

:confused:
I don't know if anyone knows exactly when Yeshua was born. It is believed He was born in the Spring, but as you know, Christians celebrate the birth in December. It's a mystery, I agree.

As to Saints, I don't personally believe in Saints. ;) By that I mean that I don't believe man has the power to make anyone a saint and I certainly don't think they should be prayed to. So perhaps man said Paul was a Saint, I'm not sure, but in my opinion, God did not make him one.

Perhaps Paul said we should drop the Torah. Again, I'm really not sure. But I do know that Yeshua did NOT and that is why I consider myself a Messianic believer.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Three Shepherds
Zec 11:4. This is what the LORD my God says: "Pasture the flock marked for slaughter. 5. Their buyers slaughter them and go unpunished. Those who sell them say, 'Praise the LORD, I am rich!' Their own shepherds do not spare them. 6. For I will no longer have pity on the people of the land," declares the LORD. "I will hand everyone over to his neighbor and his king. They will oppress the land, and I will not rescue them from their hands."
7. So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock. 8. In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.
The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9. and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."

10. Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11. It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD.

12. I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.

13. And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.

14. Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

15. Then the LORD said to me, "Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16. For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hoofs.

17. "Woe to the worthless shepherd,
who deserts the flock!
May the sword strike his arm and his right eye!
May his arm be completely withered,
his right eye totally blinded!"


The Sanhedrin, Sadducees and Pharisees. The Three Shepherds.

[dallasjewishboy]

I don't know if anyone knows exactly when Yeshua was born. It is believed He was born in the Spring, but as you know, Christians celebrate the birth in December. It's a mystery, I agree.

As to Saints, I don't personally believe in Saints. ;) By that I mean that I don't believe man has the power to make anyone a saint and I certainly don't think they should be prayed to. So perhaps man said Paul was a Saint, I'm not sure, but in my opinion, God did not make him one.

Perhaps Paul said we should drop the Torah. Again, I'm really not sure. But I do know that Yeshua did NOT and that is why I consider myself a Messianic believer.

No problems man, but bear in mind Jesus (Yeshu, or Yeoshua if you call him like that) didn't want to start a new religion. If I would be him, I would be very upset that people are using my name.
If you choose to do as Jesus did fine - he was very strict about keeping the commandments and he was Jewish - you're welcome to do the same thing, just as he did, if that's what you believe in.

But it's black and white - Christianity is Paul equal dropping the Torah. Jesus is Jesus, a Jewish person who mainly observed the Jewish law - what's your choice? up to you.

I just can't see anything in the middle.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Michael, you can read what I said above.

You just quote verses and I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

Galatians 3:26
[ Sons of God ] You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,

You can read my signature about that. Jesus by the way didn't want to start a new religion. If he would be alive today he would go to a synagogue, not a church. Read what I wrote above - it's good info, I'm looking for answers, if you have any, for that.
Thanks. OK then. lets try to stay with a single question at a time.

[dallasjewishboy]

The Sanhedrin, Sadducees and Pharisees. The Three Shepherds.

Who says?

And why bringing Sadducess into the bible, lol, sorry Mike, I mean it's really ridiculous - haha. ^_^

And sure, 1 question at a time.

[Kris10leigh]

No problems man, but bear in mind Jesus (Yeshu, or Yeoshua if you call him like that) didn't want to start a new religion. If I would be him, I would be very upset that people are using my name.
That's pretty much what I said. :thumbsup: Except for the part in bold. If one believes Yeshua/Jesus is the Messiah (and I do) then He did indeed mean for us to use His name.


If you choose to do as Jesus did fine - he was very strict about keeping the commandments and he was Jewish - you're welcome to do the same thing, just as he did, if that's what you believe in.

This is what I try to do, to the best of my abilitiy considering I grew up Christian. I am a fair newbie to the Messianic way of worshipping God.
But it's black and white - Christianity is Paul equal dropping the Torah. Jesus is Jesus, a Jewish person who mainly observed the Jewish law - what's your choice? up to you.

I'm not sure I see your point. You will find that many of us here do not follow "Christianity" per se and some are hesitant to use the word at all. Many here feel that Christianity has its roots in Paganism. Are we saying the same thing?

I think I forgot to respond to your question "Is Jesus God's son?" My own personaly belief is yes, He is. But I do not believe in the trinity. Yeshua is God's literal son, but not God Himself.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

No problems man, but bear in mind Jesus (Yeshu, or Yeoshua if you call him like that) didn't want to start a new religion. If I would be him, I would be very upset that people are using my name.
If you choose to do as Jesus did fine - he was very strict about keeping the commandments and he was Jewish - you're welcome to do the same thing, just as he did, if that's what you believe in.

But it's black and white - Christianity is Paul equal dropping the Torah. Jesus is Jesus, a Jewish person who mainly observed the Jewish law - what's your choice? up to you.

I just can't see anything in the middle. Yahshua The Messiah comes to reconcile man to God. Gods salvation comes through the Messiah, Yahshua.

I'm going to take a break, I will be back later. Michael.

[Kris10leigh]

No problems man
And just so we're clear, in my picture, I'm the one in the wedding dress. ^_^ I don't care that you called me "man", probably just a phrase as I often use "you guys", but I am female. ;)

[Kris10leigh]

Yahshua The Messiah comes to reconcile man to God. Gods salvation comes through the Messiah, Yahshua.


Why do you spell it "Yahshua"? (Just curious)

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Who says?

And why bringing Sadducess into the bible, lol, sorry Mike, I mean it's really ridiculous - haha. ^_^

And sure, 1 question at a time. That was the ruling class of Rabbi's in 35 AD.

[dallasjewishboy]

Yahshua The Messiah comes to reconcile man to God. Gods salvation comes through the Messiah, Yahshua.

I'm going to take a break, I will be back later. Michael.

Okay take care! :wave:

And...
What makes Jesus to be the Messiah?

Shabtai Zvi also was claimed to be the Messiah, just thank g-d people didn't start a new religion because of that.

Jesus himself didn't see himself as a Messiah so I don't know why you say he was so. The only people who say so are the people who say to drop the Torah.

No logic man.

[dallasjewishboy]

And just so we're clear, in my picture, I'm the one in the wedding dress. ^_^ I don't care that you called me "man", probably just a phrase as I often use "you guys", but I am female. ;)

^_^^_^^_^

Sorry.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Why do you spell it "Yahshua"? (Just curious) Joshua = Yahshua. Yahshua was his actual birth name in Hebrew.

[dallasjewishboy]

That was the ruling class of Rabbi's in 35 AD.

Hmmm... there are rulings made by Rashi, Meshudat David, many Rabbis we follow.

If you keep mentioning vague information then it won't make the claim stronger. I believe in the US everything is based on facts. People take videos now when something happens, just to have it as a proof.

In any case, 3 groups or not, what does it come to prove? :confused: I appreciate less general information and more specific one.

[Kris10leigh]

And...
What makes Jesus to be the Messiah?

Shabtai Zvi also was claimed to be the Messiah, just thank g-d people didn't start a new religion because of that.
I don't know who Shabtai Zvi is. :confused:

Jesus himself didn't see himself as a Messiah so I don't know why you say he was so.
Why do you say He didn't see Himself as Messiah? He said many, many times that He is the son of God, sent by God, etc.

The only people who say so are the people who say to drop the Torah.
Not entirely true. That's why so many gentiles are coming over to the Messianic side. ;)

[Kris10leigh]

Joshua = Yahshua. Yahshua was his actual birth name in Hebrew.
Ok...then why do I spell it "Yeshua"? ^_^ (I think I need a history lesson)

[dallasjewishboy]

I don't know who Shabtai Zvi is. :confused:
Another person people thought was Messiah but eventually discovered to be a lie. This time the end of the story was sweeter than with Christians because nobody started a new religion because of him. That's why he wasn't very popular as Jesus is and you even haven't heard of him.:thumbsup:

Why do you say He didn't see Himself as Messiah? He said many, many times that He is the son of God, sent by God, etc.

Well, it's hard to believe Christianity is a lie but it is a lie. Jesus never meant to be a leader. Jochanan the MATBIL told Jesus to go into the Mikveh and he announced him as the Messiah.
Jochanan was a crazy man, used to walk alone in the mountains.
If you guys could only see a DVD or VIDEO what happened there you would be shocked.

Not entirely true. That's why so many gentiles are coming over to the Messianic side. ;)

Oh well...

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Ok...then why do I spell it "Yeshua"? ^_^ (I think I need a history lesson) The terms I am useing are the more ancient. Hebrew, just like other languages has undergone some transformations. If that don't work for you then, oh well.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Hmmm... there are rulings made by Rashi, Meshudat David, many Rabbis we follow.

If you keep mentioning vague information then it won't make the claim stronger. I believe in the US everything is based on facts. People take videos now when something happens, just to have it as a proof.

In any case, 3 groups or not, what does it come to prove? :confused: I appreciate less general information and more specific one. There is a book called the "Holman Bible Dictionary" and it is online. You can use it as a study guide.

[dallasjewishboy]

There is a book called the "Holman Bible Dictionary" and it is online. You can use it as a study guide.

No problems.
I still don't see what's the point of saying it.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

No problems.
I still don't see what's the point of saying it. You asked how Christianity started, so I started giving you scripture that is relevant to your question. There is a great deal of Old Testament scripture that foretells the coming events if you know what to look for.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

God's Angel to Prepare the Way, is also a parable for the Messiah.
Exodus 23:20 "See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him.
This is also a parable.
Deuteronomy 18:15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die."
17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.

[dallasjewishboy]

How can we even compare Jesus to an Angel?
Jesus got crucified among other 100,000 Jews by the Romans.
The Romans killed people by the way of crucification, and this isn't new.

Jesus according to the Gmara (censored) didn't listen to his Rabbis and when he came to talk to him the Rabbi was praying at that time and thus couldn't pay attention to Jesus his student.
Then he got mad and went outside of the Jewish group in a way, but he was still Jewish and asked to follow the Jewish law, yet how can someone call him Messiah or Angel?

The angel in Shemot "Hineh Anochi הנה אנוכי שולח מלאך" in Hebrew G-D tells Moses that he wants to send an ANGEL instead of himself (G-D) watching his people.
EVENTUALLY Moses prayed to G-D and G-D tells him that he will still be with Israel - so how can you lay on a verse that is being contradicted?

A lot of lack of knowledge but I don't see myself where I'm going with trying to explain you what's wrong.

Jesus wasn't even close to Messiah and will never be, sorry if it hurts someone but I'm just telling you the truth. There is entire religion in US and Europe and many other countries based on small stories.
Judaism is based on 600,000 people in Mountain Sinai.

The Kuzari is a great book you should read to understand the difference between REAL Judaism and Christianity or Islam - unfortunately people choose to quote from the bible without studying the entire thing.

[Henaynei]

Joshua is english

Joshua = Yehoshua..... G-d is salvation

Yeshua is Yeshua - not Yahshua :)
the word yeshua = Salvation

[dallasjewishboy]

Somebody chose to send me a PM without the option to reply.
Well, what would I say about it... you don't want me to reply so I won't reply.

Regarding this link:
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/jesus/proofessay

Just quick example
Messiah would be tortured to death: Psalm 22

I suggest to you to read again Pslam 22 before you relate it to Jesus.
You guys take a verse from here and there and claim that is Jesus - please read the entire CHAPTER before claiming what you claim.

Regards.

[Kris10leigh]

Somebody chose to send me a PM without the option to reply.
Well, what would I say about it... you don't want me to reply so I won't reply.


Apparently that's not uncommon around here, I'm sorry to say. Me? I'll come on out with it and clear the air. ;)

Henny, thanks for the clarification! :thumbsup:

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

How can we even compare Jesus to an Angel?
The word "Messenger" is translated as "Angel." Some bibles translate "elohiym-s" as "Angel-s" also. Therefore the word "Angel" is a INTERPRETATION.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Joshua is english

Joshua = Yehoshua..... G-d is salvation

Yeshua is Yeshua - not Yahshua :)
the word yeshua = Salvation I do not know Ye ho shua, but I do know Yah Shua. Your translation for that name is a modern day translation. The same is also true for Ja ho vah. It is also derived from scribal error. It comes from the introduction of the word Lord into God's name.

[dallasjewishboy]

עמוס ט, 11

" 11 ביום ההוא אקים את-סכת דויד הנפלת וגדרתי את-פרציהן והרסתיו אקים ובניתיה כימי עולם

In the future G-D promises to build the 3rd temple

" 12 למען יירשו את-שארית אדום וכל-הגוים אשר-נקרא שמי עליהם נאם-יהוה עשה זאת."

The next verse continues "So Israel will inherit EDOM and all the other nations which my name was called upon them".

EDOM = Esav = Christians
ISHMAEL = Muslims

G-D promises to give his favor to his chosen son - Jacob.

13 הנה ימים באים נאם-יהוה ונגש חורש בקצר ודרך ענבים במשך הזרע והטיפו ההרים עסיס וכל-הגבעות תתמוגגנה. 14 ושבתי את-שבות עמי ישראל ובנו ערים נשמות וישבו ונטעו כרמים ושתו את-יינם ועשו גנות ואכלו את-פריהם. 15 ונטעתים על-אדמתם ולא ינתשו עוד מעל אדמתם אשר נתתי להם אמר יהוה אלהיך.

There days come and the person who works with grapes "meets" a person who works in agriculture (ground) and the combination would be great. (it's a description for the return in Israel - unless if you don't believe in commentaries you're welcome to figure out the verse in any way you'd like)

Then I shall return the people from Israel back to their land, and they will build a lot of cities and shall expand, and I shall place them on their land without taking them from there anymore, no more, So said Hashem your G-d.

--------------------------------

Amos talks about the future days, on the return of Israel, even Yeshaayahu in Chapter 11-12 talks about the Messiah and says first thing is to bring Israel back to their land, even Yehezkel says the same thing, and Jesus was nothing but another person in the history that people chose to admire. G-D promises to NOT TAKE ISRAEL from their land anymore, he says VELO INATSHU OD MEAL ADMATAM HASHER NATATI LAHEM - has it happened after Jesus? Oh yeah, the great exile to babylon happened not a long time after Jesus.

If you quote Pesukim from source here and source there and say "look, how wonderful, it's all related to Jesus" then you're going against all the commentaries of Israel, against Rashi, Ramban, Rambam, Maari Krah, Radak, and so many of Hazal, people who dedicated their lives for the Torah and for Israel.

I don't know understand how you call yourself Jewish people if you believe in Jesus - I guess it's only in United States because it's a free country to start your own religion, it's a free country to do whatever you like, not what your ancestors told you to do.

"והגדת לבנך ביום ההוא בעבור זה עשה ה' לי בצאתי ממצרים"

Why do you tell your sons about Egypt? Why G-d took us from Egypt? To start a new testament with Jesus, Christ, Lord?

I've heard you guys believe the Mazzah we eat in Pesach has holes because Jesus had holes when he died.
Do you know when the idea of Mazzah had started?

-------------------------------

But no surprise.
You guys can keep believing in what you believe and I will believe in what I believe.
Just do me 1 favor - keep your lives in United States, don't come to Israel, keep on using the English language, you don't need Hebrew do you?

I really hope United States can keep all its kind of religions and big buildings of church, like-church, like-synagogue and all the rest to whoever is seeking false information based on false history.

Shavua Tov.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

עמוס ט, 11

" 11 ביום ההוא אקים את-סכת דויד הנפלת וגדרתי את-פרציהן והרסתיו אקים ובניתיה כימי עולם

In the future G-D promises to build the 3rd temple

" 12 למען יירשו את-שארית אדום וכל-הגוים אשר-נקרא שמי עליהם נאם-יהוה עשה זאת."

The next verse continues "So Israel will inherit EDOM and all the other nations which my name was called upon them".

EDOM = Esav = Christians
ISHMAEL = Muslims

G-D promises to give his favor to his chosen son - Jacob.

13 הנה ימים באים נאם-יהוה ונגש חורש בקצר ודרך ענבים במשך הזרע והטיפו ההרים עסיס וכל-הגבעות תתמוגגנה. 14 ושבתי את-שבות עמי ישראל ובנו ערים נשמות וישבו ונטעו כרמים ושתו את-יינם ועשו גנות ואכלו את-פריהם. 15 ונטעתים על-אדמתם ולא ינתשו עוד מעל אדמתם אשר נתתי להם אמר יהוה אלהיך.

There days come and the person who works with grapes "meets" a person who works in agriculture (ground) and the combination would be great. (it's a description for the return in Israel - unless if you don't believe in commentaries you're welcome to figure out the verse in any way you'd like)

Then I shall return the people from Israel back to their land, and they will build a lot of cities and shall expand, and I shall place them on their land without taking them from there anymore, no more, So said Hashem your G-d.

--------------------------------

Amos talks about the future days, on the return of Israel, even Yeshaayahu in Chapter 11-12 talks about the Messiah and says first thing is to bring Israel back to their land, even Yehezkel says the same thing, and Jesus was nothing but another person in the history that people chose to admire. G-D promises to NOT TAKE ISRAEL from their land anymore, he says VELO INATSHU OD MEAL ADMATAM HASHER NATATI LAHEM - has it happened after Jesus? Oh yeah, the great exile to babylon happened not a long time after Jesus.

If you quote Pesukim from source here and source there and say "look, how wonderful, it's all related to Jesus" then you're going against all the commentaries of Israel, against Rashi, Ramban, Rambam, Maari Krah, Radak, and so many of Hazal, people who dedicated their lives for the Torah and for Israel.

I don't know understand how you call yourself Jewish people if you believe in Jesus - I guess it's only in United States because it's a free country to start your own religion, it's a free country to do whatever you like, not what your ancestors told you to do.

"והגדת לבנך ביום ההוא בעבור זה עשה ה' לי בצאתי ממצרים"

Why do you tell your sons about Egypt? Why G-d took us from Egypt? To start a new testament with Jesus, Christ, Lord?

I've heard you guys believe the Mazzah we eat in Pesach has holes because Jesus had holes when he died.
Do you know when the idea of Mazzah had started?

-------------------------------

But no surprise.
You guys can keep believing in what you believe and I will believe in what I believe.
Just do me 1 favor - keep your lives in United States, don't come to Israel, keep on using the English language, you don't need Hebrew do you?

I really hope United States can keep all its kind of religions and big buildings of church, like-church, like-synagogue and all the rest to whoever is seeking false information based on false history.

Shavua Tov. The questions here is: Who is Israel, who are the grapes, who are the olives, who are the branch, who are the grafted branch, who are Jacob, and who is a Jew? Because those words are used parabolically there is a broader meaning then what is narrowly defined. And so What can those words include? The answers are hidden in scripture in plain sight.

[dallasjewishboy]

The questions here is: Who is Israel, who are the grapes, who are the olives, who are the branch, who are the grafted branch, who are Jacob, and who is a Jew? Because those words are used parabolically there is a broader meaning then what is narrowly defined. And so What can those words include? The answers are hidden in scripture in plain sight.

Is that a joke? :eek:

Who is Israel, who is Jacob?

I'm done here, I'm not gonna waste my energy on staburn people. I don't think anything could impress you, so live your pretty life in the US of A, claim that you're Jews, believe in Jesus, believe in your own Torah, go against Hazal.

Michael, the answers to all your questions are not hidden but stated clearly in Tanach, Gamara, Mishna, Halacha, Rambam, Agadot, Kaballah, Ramban, Kuzari, Geonim, Zkenim, ......................

Those people never said Mazzah in Pesach has holes because Jesus was stabbed with holes.

I'm tired of the conversations with you, you don't read or reply, you just give me blank answers, you can stay wherever you are in your own position and I will stay in mine.

I'm just feeling such a shame you guys call yourself Jews, you're not a part of my people, you're worse, better have Christians or non-religious people, not people who claim to be Jews but don't believe in anything in Judaism, in 39 Avos Melachos in Shabbat, in Tanuaru Shel Aknay (Akanay's Oven).

Goodbye, goodluck with your way of life, stay out of Israel please.

[HalcyonFire]

first of all I wonder about the hostility of the OP... what has happened to you that would cause you to be so hostile...???

how do messianics observation and regard/disregard for ideas you hold dear differ from sects of Judaism that reject oral law, etc? last time I checked, believing in a false messiah (since that is what you think he was) is not against the "rules".... just deifying him. there are many messianics who do not.

part of the confusion is that here there is no difference between Messianic Jews and Hebraic Christians. Blame the site, not the people.

alas, I am not interested in changing your view of your own religion, but asking that you respect those who disagree with you (as they should respect you as well)

thanks.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Is that a joke? :eek:

Who is Israel, who is Jacob?

I'm done here, I'm not gonna waste my energy on staburn people. I don't think anything could impress you, so live your pretty life in the US of A, claim that you're Jews, believe in Jesus, believe in your own Torah, go against Hazal.

Michael, the answers to all your questions are not hidden but stated clearly in Tanach, Gamara, Mishna, Halacha, Rambam, Agadot, Kaballah, Ramban, Kuzari, Geonim, Zkenim, ......................

Those people never said Mazzah in Pesach has holes because Jesus was stabbed with holes.

I'm tired of the conversations with you, you don't read or reply, you just give me blank answers, you can stay wherever you are in your own position and I will stay in mine.

I'm just feeling such a shame you guys call yourself Jews, you're not a part of my people, you're worse, better have Christians or non-religious people, not people who claim to be Jews but don't believe in anything in Judaism, in 39 Avos Melachos in Shabbat, in Tanuaru Shel Aknay (Akanay's Oven).

Goodbye, goodluck with your way of life, stay out of Israel please. Obviously you have not studied parables. A person can not understand what is written in scripture unless they understand parables. I'm left to conclude that the Orthodox Rabbi's do not teach about parables to there congregation. That must be why I keep getting blank stares and dumb remarks.

[jaihare]

Yahshua was born ABOUT 4 BC. Saint is a term that mostly Catholics use. Paul was talking about the New Covenant that God would establish through the Messiah.
If Jesus were born in 4 BCE and Herod the Great died in 4 BCE, why did Herod send his soldiers to kill the babies who were up to TWO YEARS OLD in the vicinity of Bethlehem? (I'm not saying that that really happened!) If Jesus were born in 4 BCE, why didn't they just hide for a couple of months until the death of Herod? Why would they need to run to Egypt? How long do you think they were in Egypt? If Jesus was possibly up to two years old when Herod sent them to kill the babies and then some time was spent in Egypt as well, we could place Jesus' birth all the way back in 6, 7, or 8 BCE based on this. I mean, whose eyes are you really trying to pull the wool over here?

Jason

[jaihare]

That was the ruling class of Rabbi's in 35 AD.
Priests, yes; rabbis, no. Rabbinic Judaism is based on Oral Torah, which the Tsadokim rejected.

Jason

[jaihare]

Joshua = Yahshua. Yahshua was his actual birth name in Hebrew.
Can you tell me how to spell that in Hebrew? It's funny that the only people I've ever seen use "Yahshua" simply don't know Hebrew. I'd be really happy to finally see how it spelled and vocalized in the "original" (seeing that there is no such name as "Yahshua" in Hebrew).

Jason

[jaihare]

I do not know Ye ho shua, but I do know Yah Shua. Your translation for that name is a modern day translation. The same is also true for Ja ho vah. It is also derived from scribal error. It comes from the introduction of the word Lord into God's name.
Since neither the Bible nor the Mishnah is "ancient" Hebrew. It's all modern, eh? Even though the Bible clearly uses the form

יְהוֹשֻׁעַ

on many occasions. If that it's Yehoshua, what is it? How do you deal with the presence of the vav if you take the yod-heh as a closed syllable? The vav clearly indicates that, even without vocalization, it cannot be Yahshua. Do you really know any Hebrew at all? You can be honest.

Jason

[jaihare]

Obviously you have not studied parables. A person can not understand what is written in scripture unless they understand parables. I'm left to conclude that the Orthodox Rabbi's do not teach about parables to there congregation. That must be why I keep getting blank stares and dumb remarks.
Storytelling is the best way to understand the clear words of HaShem? What you call "parable" we call אגדתא "aggadata". These are stories told to make demonstration of some point of teaching through illustration. Why do you talk about what you don't know?

You get blank stares because your interpretations are so subjective. They are based on the fact that you already believe tal o cual and then put your beliefs into the text. If you tried to understand the texts in their historical and literal context, you wouldn't get blank stares. However, since you impute your Christian beliefs into the text, you get blank stares from Jews who think that you're just off your rocker.

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

If Jesus were born in 4 BCE and Herod the Great died in 4 BCE, why did Herod send his soldiers to kill the babies who were up to TWO YEARS OLD in the vicinity of Bethlehem? (I'm not saying that that really happened!) If Jesus were born in 4 BCE, why didn't they just hide for a couple of months until the death of Herod? Why would they need to run to Egypt? How long do you think they were in Egypt? If Jesus was possibly up to two years old when Herod sent them to kill the babies and then some time was spent in Egypt as well, we could place Jesus' birth all the way back in 6, 7, or 8 BCE based on this. I mean, whose eyes are you really trying to pull the wool over here?

Jason After Herod The Great sent his soldiers to kill the babies, not long afterward he was killed. What does it matter if the calender is off a few years; The sun will still shine.

[jaihare]

After Herod The Great sent his soldiers to kill the babies, not long afterward he was killed. What does it matter if the calender is off a few years; The sun will still shine.
So, you're accepting 6 BCE rather than 4 BCE? You don't think this is significant? Hmmm....

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Priests, yes; rabbis, no. Rabbinic Judaism is based on Oral Torah, which the Tsadokim rejected.

Jason To me a rabbi and priest are the same. Yes I know there is a difference.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Since neither the Bible nor the Mishnah is "ancient" Hebrew. It's all modern, eh? Even though the Bible clearly uses the form

יְהוֹשֻׁעַ

on many occasions. If that it's Yehoshua, what is it? How do you deal with the presence of the vav if you take the yod-heh as a closed syllable? The vav clearly indicates that, even without vocalization, it cannot be Yahshua. Do you really know any Hebrew at all? You can be honest.

Jason I'm not going to dig through my notes now, but seems to me that the vav was a late introduction into Hebrew. But who cares.

[yiddishakups]

Look up Constantine - Counsel of Nicea. Also read Acts chapter 21 in the New Testament. You might find the articles on my web site interesting, especially if you click on Brit Chadash and Studies. They are quick simple articles.
From Iris
www.yeshuaconnection.com (http://www.yeshuaconnection.com)

[jaihare]

To me a rabbi and priest are the same. Yes I know there is a difference.
If you think it's OK to make no distinction between obviously distinct classes of people, then it's no wonder you're so disconnected from the reality behind Judaism.

[jaihare]

I'm not going to dig through my notes now, but seems to me that the vav was a late introduction into Hebrew. But who cares.
No, that's not the case. Vav is an original letter of the alphabet. It is represented in all Semitic languages.

However, the use of vav as a vowel letter solely to mark a long -o- was late. The long -o- in this name represented by the vav is ancient in origin. It is an essential letter of the name, given the root י.ש.ע -- since initial yod roots shift to an -o- vowel in the hif'il binyan. Thus, we have הושיע hoshia meaning "he has delivered", in which both the vav and the yod are essential letters, but especially the vav. You cannot write hoshia without the vav.

The same is the case in the name יהושע in which the vav represents both the elongated root letter for the hiphil base and also the third letter of the Holy Name of God.

(The observant reader will notice that I have not posted the optional vav of the name, which could be written as יהושוע with the second vav representing the -u- vowel. The more ancient spelling does not have this second vav, which is optional.)

Not all vavs are non-essential, and vav is by far just as ancient as every other letter of the Hebrew alphabet.

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

If you think it's OK to make no distinction between obviously distinct classes of people, then it's no wonder you're so disconnected from the reality behind Judaism. The order of things have changed a bit in the past 2000 years.

[jaihare]

The order of things have changed a bit in the past 2000 years.
As we say in Hebrew.... nu?

What's your point? Are you suggesting that the Cohanim were rabbis? Surely you realize that the Cohanim in the Second Temple during that time were deniers of the Oral Law, the very foundation of Rabbinic Judaism.

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

As we say in Hebrew.... nu?

What's your point? Are you suggesting that the Cohanim were rabbis? Surely you realize that the Cohanim in the Second Temple during that time were deniers of the Oral Law, the very foundation of Rabbinic Judaism.

Jason Back 2000 years ago some of the Cohanim were allowed to preform the duties of a Rabbi. These days a majority of Reform Jews and Reconstructionist Jews consider all rules and ceremonies regarding the priesthood to be outdated. Many consider it to be anti-egalitarian, and discriminatory against Jews who are not kohanim. The honors given to the kohen during the Torah reading and in the performance of the Priestly Blessing are not observed in Reform or Re-constructionist Jewish communities. Many Reform and Re-constructionist Temples forbid the practice of these laws and customs. Because I'm a Judaeo Christian, these things are only of little importance to me.

[HalcyonFire]

so does this basically mean the Saducees? (just trying to clear up my references here)

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

so does this basically mean the Saducees? (just trying to clear up my references here) The Sadducees were members of a Jewish sect founded in the second century BC, possibly as a political party. They ceased to exist sometime after the first century AD.

Zechariah 11:7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock. 8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.
The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."

10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD.

Thus the Three Shepherds: Sanhedrin, Sadducees, and Pharisees.

[HalcyonFire]

was actually talking to Jase.

[jaihare]

Back 2000 years ago some of the Cohanim were allowed to preform the duties of a Rabbi. These days a majority of Reform Jews and Reconstructionist Jews consider all rules and ceremonies regarding the priesthood to be outdated. Many consider it to be anti-egalitarian, and discriminatory against Jews who are not kohanim. The honors given to the kohen during the Torah reading and in the performance of the Priestly Blessing are not observed in Reform or Re-constructionist Jewish communities. Many Reform and Re-constructionist Temples forbid the practice of these laws and customs. Because I'm a Judaeo Christian, these things are only of little importance to me.
What is a Judaeo Christian? You are simply a Christian. The mixture is just a fabrication with no historical background.

We do not establish standard Jewish thought and practice from the Reform and Reconstructionism movements. What do Orthodox Jews think?

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

What is a Judaeo Christian? You are simply a Christian. The mixture is just a fabrication with no historical background.

We do not establish standard Jewish thought and practice from the Reform and Reconstructionism movements. What do Orthodox Jews think?

Jason Judaeo is a modren term for Judaizing or Judaic.

[jaihare]

so does this basically mean the Saducees? (just trying to clear up my references here)
Yeah, of course I meant Sadducees. Sorry about the quick reference. I'm just getting frustrated with the nonsense in this thread.

Most of the Sadducees were Cohanim, but the Cohanim were not all Sadducees. The Sadducees were a select group of aristocrats among the Cohanim, if you get what I'm saying.

Jason

[jaihare]

Judaeo is a modren term for Judaizing or Judaic.
So, essentially, you are a heretic? Paul said that Judaizers were heretics. It was spelled out very clearly in the writings of the Apostolic Fathers, those who were the direct students of the Apostles:

Ignatius Magnesians 10:3
"It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God."

Even Peter did not ζῇ Ἰουδαϊκῶς "live like a Jew", according to Paul, yet he was interested in making other people Ἰουδαΐζειν "adopt a Jewish way of life". Paul wrote that making Gentiles adopt a Jewish way of life (or "Judaize" in modern parlance) was contrary to the nature of the Christian relationship to God.

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Yeah, of course I meant Sadducees. Sorry about the quick reference. I'm just getting frustrated with the nonsense in this thread.

Most of the Sadducees were Cohanim, but the Cohanim were not all Sadducees. The Sadducees were a select group of aristocrats among the Cohanim, if you get what I'm saying.

Jason You mean that they were Hellenistic Jews which was a secret society?

[jaihare]

You mean that they were Hellenistic Jews which was a secret society?
Bleh.... :sick:

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Bleh.... :sick: What, you don't know about Hellenistic Jews? Well here is a link with some info if you are interested in Jewish culture. http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T2697

[jaihare]

What, you don't know about Hellenistic Jews? Well here is a link with some info if you are interested in Jewish culture. http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T2697
Of course I know about Hellenistic Jews.

My "bleh.... :sick:" was to your suggestion about secret societies, which insinuates involvement in things such as those proposed in The Protocols. I don't have patience for ignorance on that scale.

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

So, essentially, you are a heretic? Paul said that Judaizers were heretics. It was spelled out very clearly in the writings of the Apostolic Fathers, those who were the direct students of the Apostles:

Ignatius Magnesians 10:3
"It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God."

Even Peter did not ζῇ Ἰουδαϊκῶς "live like a Jew", according to Paul, yet he was interested in making other people Ἰουδαΐζειν "adopt a Jewish way of life". Paul wrote that making Gentiles adopt a Jewish way of life (or "Judaize" in modern parlance) was contrary to the nature of the Christian relationship to God.

Jason According to the Catholic Church, anyone who does not agree with her is a heretic. As for Paul, he condemned the circumcision group. As for Ignatius, who gives a flip; because the first Christians were called converts to Judaism before they were called Christians.

[HalcyonFire]

Yeah, of course I meant Sadducees. Sorry about the quick reference. I'm just getting frustrated with the nonsense in this thread.

Most of the Sadducees were Cohanim, but the Cohanim were not all Sadducees. The Sadducees were a select group of aristocrats among the Cohanim, if you get what I'm saying.

Jason
it's confusing (I know better sources are available) but that term, cohanim, in wikipedia, basically presents a confusing look compared to what you've said.... that's why I'm asking. maybe they have it wrong or i'm reading wikipedia wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohen

[jaihare]

According to the Catholic Church, anyone who does not agree with her is a heretic. As for Paul, he condemned the circumcision group. As for Ignatius, who gives a flip; because the first Christians were called converts to Judaism before they were called Christians.
So, Paul's and John's (not to mention the other leaders of the early Church) teachings were so difficult that even their own students didn't understand? How is it that the leaders of the church after the death of the Apostles were simply stupid? Is that what you're suggesting? You here in the 21st Century are able to somehow understand Paul in a different language, a difficult culture, and after 19 centuries, but those who heard him teach, read his letters as if they were written to them personally -- in their native tongue -- and inherited the authority to lead the church from him simply misunderstood what he said? And then "who gives a flip?" Nice one.

Jason

[jaihare]

it's confusing (I know better sources are available) but that term, cohanim, in wikipedia, basically presents a confusing look compared to what you've said.... that's why I'm asking. maybe they have it wrong or i'm reading wikipedia wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohen
This article simply doesn't touch upon the cohanim's function in the Second Temple period specifically, in which the Sadducees were mostly cohanim -- people born from priestly blood.

Jason

[HalcyonFire]

okay.. so in a sense it's true, and in another it's very lacking

[jaihare]

okay.. so in a sense it's true, and in another it's very lacking
Right. In the general sense, it's perfectly true. However, in the period of the Second Temple there was a lot of politicking involved in the leadership and conduct of the Temple. Much of it was pay to play under Roman authority, and those Cohen families who had money took over. They were generally despised by the people, and they rejected the Pharisees' Oral Law. This led to the centering of Pharisaic power in the synagogue, while the Sadducees (who were composed of those wealthy priestly families) ran the show in the Temple in Jerusalem. When the Temple was destroyed, the Sadducees lost their power.

By way of aside, this is the "anointed one" (for all priests were anointed to perform their duty) that was cut off at the destruction of the Temple as mentioned in Daniel 9. ;)

Yours,
Jason

[HalcyonFire]

saducees= anointed one (just being clear)

[Qalevra]

He's saying that they're the anointed ones referred to in Daniel 9; of course, the Hebrew word for "anointed" is "moshiach". ;)

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

So, Paul's and John's (not to mention the other leaders of the early Church) teachings were so difficult that even their own students didn't understand? How is it that the leaders of the church after the death of the Apostles were simply stupid? Is that what you're suggesting? You here in the 21st Century are able to somehow understand Paul in a different language, a difficult culture, and after 19 centuries, but those who heard him teach, read his letters as if they were written to them personally -- in their native tongue -- and inherited the authority to lead the church from him simply misunderstood what he said? And then "who gives a flip?" Nice one.

Jason Ignatius was not a disciple of Jesus. From the very beginning of Christianity different groups tried to take over, even before Jesus was nailed to the cross. The question of circumcision came about because of what is written in scripture and the New Covenant. There, is that better?

[jaihare]

saducees= anointed one (just being clear)
Technically, the high priest is the specific "anointed one" of the passage.

Jason

[jaihare]

Ignatius was not a disciple of Jesus. From the very beginning of Christianity different groups tried to take over, even before Jesus was nailed to the cross. The question of circumcision came about because of what is written in scripture and the New Covenant. There, is that better?
So, Jesus' message was so weak that only those who were there with him for three years could get it and keep it right? Everyone else was just scrambling? And those who received it from those who spent those three years with him were inept at receiving and passing it on? Additionally, what makes you think that Paul was correct? Perhaps he was just another of those who was grasping to take over (and, yes, I seriously believe that).

Jason

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

So, Jesus' message was so weak that only those who were there with him for three years could get it and keep it right? Everyone else was just scrambling? And those who received it from those who spent those three years with him were inept at receiving and passing it on? Additionally, what makes you think that Paul was correct? Perhaps he was just another of those who was grasping to take over (and, yes, I seriously believe that).

Jason Why am I always the one to put forth scripture. Don't you study scripture? The truth is that you only want to be obstinate.

[jaihare]

Why am I always the one to put forth scripture. Don't you study scripture? The truth is that you only want to be obstinate.
You put forth your views of Scriptures. You have never opened the Scriptures as it is truly written, I'm sure. I ride to work with my Tanakh and read it IN HEBREW and study a great deal in my spare time. Please, do not presume to lecture me when you are not even able to read the languages of the Bible. I have been far more serious in my studies than you have. Your put downs, however, stem only from your ignorance -- both of the Scriptures and of my personal experience and level of study.

Jason

[jaihare]

Why am I always the one to put forth scripture. Don't you study scripture? The truth is that you only want to be obstinate.
By the way, nice dodge. Could you please answer my questions. Was Jesus' teaching so slippery that those who heard him could not reliably pass it on to their students, to whom the leadership of the Church fell upon their deaths?

Jason