What is Arminianism?

[yashualover]

What is Arminianism?

ARMINIANISM is a teaching regarding salvation associated with the Dutch theologian Jacob Arminius (1560-1609). The fundamental principle in Arminianism is the rejection of predestination (http://www.bible-researcher.com/predestination.html), and a corresponding affirmation of the freedom of the human will. Shortly after his death, the followers of Arminius (later called Arminians) presented a statement to the governing authorities of Holland in which they set forth five articles of doctrine. These were: (1) that the divine decree of predestination is conditional, not absolute; (2) that the Atonement is in intention universal; (3) that man cannot of himself exercise a saving faith, but requires God's help to attain this faith; (4) that though the grace of God is a necessary condition of human effort it does not act irresistibly in man; (5) that believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace. In essence, the Arminians maintained that God gives indispensible help in salvation, but that ultimately it is the free will of man which decides the issue. After a period of sharp theological controversy the Dutch government convened a National Synod of leading churchmen, which met in Dordrecht in the years 1618-19. At this "Synod of Dort" the members adopted five articles in direct opposition to the five articles of the Arminians. The articles of Dort have come to be known as the "five points of Calvinism."
The following paragraphs (taken from Romans: An Interpretive Outline, by David N. Steele and Curtis Thomas) give a particularly clear and concise summary of the differences between Arminianism and Calvinism.
Arminianism


Free-will or human ability. Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe but does not interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists in his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God’s Spirit and be regenerated or resist God’s grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit’s assistance but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man’s act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner’s gift to God; it is man’s contribution to salvation.
Conditional election. God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the Gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw, and upon which He based His choice, was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man’s will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner’s choice of Christ—not God’s choice of the sinner—is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Universal redemption or general atonement. Christ’s redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone’s sins. Christ’s redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.
The Holy Spirit can be effectually resisted. The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation. He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit’s call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man’s contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man’s free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ’s saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God’s grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be— and often is—resisted and thwarted by man.
Falling from grace. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ, that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.
According to Arminianism, salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond); man’s response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man’s will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be recipients of the gift of salvation.
The Five Points of Calvinism


Total inability or total depravity. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the Gospel. The sinner is dead, blind and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free; it is in bondage to his evil nature; therefore, he will not—indeed he cannot—choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ—it takes regeneration, by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation; it is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God.
Unconditional election. God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause, of God’s choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God’s choice of the sinner—not the sinner’s choice of Christ—is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Particular redemption or limited atonement. Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only, and actually secured salvation for them. His death was the substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation; including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.
The efficacious call of the Spirit or Irresistible Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation (which is made to everyone who hears the Gospel), the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be—and often is—rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call, the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependent upon man’s cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God’s grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.
Perseverance of the saints. All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.
According to Calvinism, salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God: the Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ’s death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation. This is the biblical Gospel.
Philip Schaff in his Creeds of Christendom gives a very full discussion of the Arminian controversy, and although he is not entirely in sympathy with the articles of Dort, he rightly observes that "Calvinism represented the consistent, logical, conservative orthodoxy; Arminianism an elastic, progressive, changing liberalism." (1) He sums it up well when he describes Arminianism as a "moderated semi-Pelagianism" (2) Semi-Pelagianism was an ancient heresy which held that man out of his own free will takes the first step in salvation, and is then assisted by God. The Arminians merely reverse the order, saying that man must respond out of his own free will after God first prompts him with "prevenient grace." In both, the decisive thing is the will of man, not the will or decree of God.
Although Semi-Pelagianism and Arminianism were rejected in the Protestant confessions of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, during the eighteenth century Arminian doctrine was revived and promoted by the English evangelist John Wesley and his followers. Through their influence Arminian ideas eventually gained the upper hand in most American churches. Dwight Moody, who was the most popular evangelist of the nineteenth century, was essentially an Arminian with regard to his doctrine of salvation, although he inconsistently taught that salvation could not be "lost" after it was "obtained." The same is true of Billy Graham in the twentieth century. Arminian interpretations are to be found in one of the most popular versions of the Bible, Ken Taylor's Living Bible (http://www.bible-researcher.com/lbp.html) paraphrase. Today a naive and incoherent mixture of Arminian and Calvinistic teachings is typical of many churches, in which people describe themselves as "four point" or "three point" Calvinists after having implicitly accepted the basic premise of Arminianism that it is the free will of man which ultimately decides his standing with God. This premise is incompatible with explicit teachings of the Bible concerning predestination (see for example the ninth chapter of Paul's epistle to the Romans—a chapter which Arminians have never been able to explain). Theologians who have tried to present a coherent system of doctrine based upon the concept of "free will" have tended to fall into gross Pelagianism (http://www.bible-researcher.com/sproul1.html) (e.g. Charles Finney). Churches in which Arminianism prevails tend to become humanistic and liberal, after having rejected the authority of the Bible. In recent years the brazenly heretical "Open Theism" movement lead by Clark Pinnock and John Sanders is a result of Arminians following their premises to logical conclusions. In the end, Arminian premises cannot be maintained without denying cardinal truths of the Christian faith.
The naive Arminianism that prevails in American churches represents a serious threat to the gospel. It involves a failure to understand the grace of God, and an ignorance of the gospel preached by Paul and the other apostles. Its tendencies are fundamentally heretical, because it attributes salvation to a human capacity or disposition rather than to God alone.
Soli Deo gloria
Michael Marlowe
July 2005

http://www.bible-researcher.com/arminianism.html

http://www.monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=what+is+arminianism

[nzguy]

Yah.. I don't go for Arminianism or Calvinism.

I don go for Arminianism because it flys in the face of verses about receiving eternal life like:

Joh 10:28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.


Rom 8:37 But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


and verses that show Jesus guaranteeing eternal life to us thru the Holy Spirit, Arminianism doesn't fully recognise them:

2 Co 5:5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13b-14 in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


(1Pe 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

(1Pe 1:4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

When it comes down to it, I think Arminianism denies the deity of Christ.. because this theology denies Christ's payment for our sins was enough.. thereby making Jesus' promises about eternal life mostly worthless

The thing I do agree with is the way salvation is made.. thru asking Christ into your life. That is sound.. stacks up well with Romans 10.. Ephesians chapter 2.. the book of Acts.. there is no sinners prayer as such in the bible.. but pretty much the same thing is seen in the context of these verses in calling out to God for salvation.. confessing sins.. believing for salvation.. we do all these things in the prayer.

I don't understand Arminianism.. because if you rebel against God after salvation.. say it was your parents you were rebelling against after being born into their family.. it is impossible for you to leave the family because you are blood connected. That connection cannot be severed at all.. unless by death.

Now God's connection to us is greater than a blood connection because it involves the Holy Spirit indwelling our spirit! Then the Holy Spirit says I will never leave you nor forsake you! That is an eternal thing.. not bound by death.

How can you say a parent no longer becomes your parent when you rebel against them? You can't! Not blood-wise anyway.. maybe legally.. but biologically-- no way!

The same is with God.. you can't rebel against Him after salvation and He no longer stays with you.. or you leave Him.. because He has brought you at a price with His own blood thru the payment of Jesus Christ as God in human skin!

So yeah.. neither Arminianism nor Calvinism for me.. the third option:

salvation thru calling out to God for salvation.. then it can be in no way lost.. not by suicide.. not by rebellion.. because it is God's commitment to us.. not our commitment to Him.. that saves us.. all we do is ask Him in.

(Gal 2:16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Rom 10:11) For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(Rom 10:12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
(Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


(Eph 2:4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
(Eph 2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;)
(Eph 2:6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
(Eph 2:7) That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.


that is my 4 cents :) (inflation has pushed my 2 cents up)

[mlqurgw]

What is Arminianism?

ARMINIANISM is a teaching regarding salvation associated with the Dutch theologian Jacob Arminius (1560-1609). The fundamental principle in Arminianism is the rejection of predestination (http://www.bible-researcher.com/predestination.html), and a corresponding affirmation of the freedom of the human will. Shortly after his death, the followers of Arminius (later called Arminians) presented a statement to the governing authorities of Holland in which they set forth five articles of doctrine. These were: (1) that the divine decree of predestination is conditional, not absolute; (2) that the Atonement is in intention universal; (3) that man cannot of himself exercise a saving faith, but requires God's help to attain this faith; (4) that though the grace of God is a necessary condition of human effort it does not act irresistibly in man; (5) that believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace. In essence, the Arminians maintained that God gives indispensible help in salvation, but that ultimately it is the free will of man which decides the issue. After a period of sharp theological controversy the Dutch government convened a National Synod of leading churchmen, which met in Dordrecht in the years 1618-19. At this "Synod of Dort" the members adopted five articles in direct opposition to the five articles of the Arminians. The articles of Dort have come to be known as the "five points of Calvinism."
The following paragraphs (taken from Romans: An Interpretive Outline, by David N. Steele and Curtis Thomas) give a particularly clear and concise summary of the differences between Arminianism and Calvinism.
Arminianism


Free-will or human ability. Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe but does not interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists in his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God’s Spirit and be regenerated or resist God’s grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit’s assistance but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man’s act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner’s gift to God; it is man’s contribution to salvation.
Conditional election. God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the Gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw, and upon which He based His choice, was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man’s will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner’s choice of Christ—not God’s choice of the sinner—is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Universal redemption or general atonement. Christ’s redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone’s sins. Christ’s redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.
The Holy Spirit can be effectually resisted. The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation. He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit’s call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man’s contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man’s free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ’s saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God’s grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be— and often is—resisted and thwarted by man.
Falling from grace. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ, that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.
According to Arminianism, salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond); man’s response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man’s will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be recipients of the gift of salvation.
The Five Points of Calvinism


Total inability or total depravity. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the Gospel. The sinner is dead, blind and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free; it is in bondage to his evil nature; therefore, he will not—indeed he cannot—choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ—it takes regeneration, by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation; it is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God.
Unconditional election. God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause, of God’s choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God’s choice of the sinner—not the sinner’s choice of Christ—is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Particular redemption or limited atonement. Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only, and actually secured salvation for them. His death was the substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation; including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.
The efficacious call of the Spirit or Irresistible Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation (which is made to everyone who hears the Gospel), the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be—and often is—rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call, the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependent upon man’s cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God’s grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.
Perseverance of the saints. All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.
According to Calvinism, salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God: the Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ’s death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation. This is the biblical Gospel.
Philip Schaff in his Creeds of Christendom gives a very full discussion of the Arminian controversy, and although he is not entirely in sympathy with the articles of Dort, he rightly observes that "Calvinism represented the consistent, logical, conservative orthodoxy; Arminianism an elastic, progressive, changing liberalism." (1) He sums it up well when he describes Arminianism as a "moderated semi-Pelagianism" (2) Semi-Pelagianism was an ancient heresy which held that man out of his own free will takes the first step in salvation, and is then assisted by God. The Arminians merely reverse the order, saying that man must respond out of his own free will after God first prompts him with "prevenient grace." In both, the decisive thing is the will of man, not the will or decree of God.
Although Semi-Pelagianism and Arminianism were rejected in the Protestant confessions of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, during the eighteenth century Arminian doctrine was revived and promoted by the English evangelist John Wesley and his followers. Through their influence Arminian ideas eventually gained the upper hand in most American churches. Dwight Moody, who was the most popular evangelist of the nineteenth century, was essentially an Arminian with regard to his doctrine of salvation, although he inconsistently taught that salvation could not be "lost" after it was "obtained." The same is true of Billy Graham in the twentieth century. Arminian interpretations are to be found in one of the most popular versions of the Bible, Ken Taylor's Living Bible (http://www.bible-researcher.com/lbp.html) paraphrase. Today a naive and incoherent mixture of Arminian and Calvinistic teachings is typical of many churches, in which people describe themselves as "four point" or "three point" Calvinists after having implicitly accepted the basic premise of Arminianism that it is the free will of man which ultimately decides his standing with God. This premise is incompatible with explicit teachings of the Bible concerning predestination (see for example the ninth chapter of Paul's epistle to the Romans—a chapter which Arminians have never been able to explain). Theologians who have tried to present a coherent system of doctrine based upon the concept of "free will" have tended to fall into gross Pelagianism (http://www.bible-researcher.com/sproul1.html) (e.g. Charles Finney). Churches in which Arminianism prevails tend to become humanistic and liberal, after having rejected the authority of the Bible. In recent years the brazenly heretical "Open Theism" movement lead by Clark Pinnock and John Sanders is a result of Arminians following their premises to logical conclusions. In the end, Arminian premises cannot be maintained without denying cardinal truths of the Christian faith.
The naive Arminianism that prevails in American churches represents a serious threat to the gospel. It involves a failure to understand the grace of God, and an ignorance of the gospel preached by Paul and the other apostles. Its tendencies are fundamentally heretical, because it attributes salvation to a human capacity or disposition rather than to God alone.
Soli Deo gloria
Michael Marlowe
July 2005 :thumbsup:

[DominusIesus]

My view is simple:

"O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation. Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms. For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods. In his hand are the deep places of the earth: the strength of the hills is his also. The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands formed the dry land. O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker. For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest." (Psalm 95)

"Sing aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob.Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery. Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day. For this was a statute for Israel, and a law of the God of Jacob.This he ordained in Joseph for a testimony, when he went out through the land of Egypt: where I heard a language that I understood not.I removed his shoulder from the burden: his hands were delivered from the pots. Thou calledst in trouble, and I delivered thee; I answered thee in the secret place of thunder: I proved thee at the waters of Meribah. Selah. Hear, O my people, and I will testify unto thee: O Israel, if thou wilt hearken unto me; There shall no strange god be in thee; neither shalt thou worship any strange god. I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me. So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned my hand against their adversaries. The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever. He should have fed them also with the finest of the wheat: and with honey out of the rock should I have satisfied thee." (Psalm 81)

"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:5-11)

[yashualover]

Yah.. I don't go for Arminianism or Calvinism.

I don go for Arminianism because it flys in the face of verses about receiving eternal life like:

Joh 10:28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.


Rom 8:37 But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


and verses that show Jesus guaranteeing eternal life to us thru the Holy Spirit, Arminianism doesn't fully recognise them:

2 Co 5:5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13b-14 in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


(1Pe 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

(1Pe 1:4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

When it comes down to it, I think Arminianism denies the deity of Christ.. because this theology denies Christ's payment for our sins was enough.. thereby making Jesus' promises about eternal life mostly worthless

The thing I do agree with is the way salvation is made.. thru asking Christ into your life. That is sound.. stacks up well with Romans 10.. Ephesians chapter 2.. the book of Acts.. there is no sinners prayer as such in the bible.. but pretty much the same thing is seen in the context of these verses in calling out to God for salvation.. confessing sins.. believing for salvation.. we do all these things in the prayer.

I don't understand Arminianism.. because if you rebel against God after salvation.. say it was your parents you were rebelling against after being born into their family.. it is impossible for you to leave the family because you are blood connected. That connection cannot be severed at all.. unless by death.

Now God's connection to us is greater than a blood connection because it involves the Holy Spirit indwelling our spirit! Then the Holy Spirit says I will never leave you nor forsake you! That is an eternal thing.. not bound by death.

How can you say a parent no longer becomes your parent when you rebel against them? You can't! Not blood-wise anyway.. maybe legally.. but biologically-- no way!

The same is with God.. you can't rebel against Him after salvation and He no longer stays with you.. or you leave Him.. because He has brought you at a price with His own blood thru the payment of Jesus Christ as God in human skin!

So yeah.. neither Arminianism nor Calvinism for me.. the third option:

salvation thru calling out to God for salvation.. then it can be in no way lost.. not by suicide.. not by rebellion.. because it is God's commitment to us.. not our commitment to Him.. that saves us.. all we do is ask Him in.

(Gal 2:16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Rom 10:11) For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(Rom 10:12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
(Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


(Eph 2:4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
(Eph 2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;)
(Eph 2:6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
(Eph 2:7) That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.


that is my 4 cents :) (inflation has pushed my 2 cents up)





:thumbsup: Amen. Calvinism agree's with everything you have written.

[nzguy]

well hang on a second.. I thought with calvinism there is only a pre-elected group of people who have been chosen to either go to heaven or hell.. and that you don't ask Jesus into your life for salvation.. but are somehow chosen. And also that Calvinism is works-based because if you aren't doing good works or showing fruits then you haven't proven you have been chosen (the doctrine that Christians WILL and HAVE TO show good works and fruit) .

This is what I don't agree with.. a person can be genuinely saved thru asking Christ into their lives and then get caught up in weeds.. worldy ways..

this doesn't mean they weren't saved in teh first place! Just that they haven't been fed after salvation.. haven't pursued reading the bible... going to a bible based church.. haven't shared their faith etc..

So what I thought with Calvinism is

1) you are unable to call out to God for salvation because you are completely depraved

2) the way you know you are saved is because of the good works and fruit in your life

3) that there is a pre-elected group of people chosen to go to heaven or hell.. and that there is no free will decision for anyone to become a Christian.

I may be wrong.. but I think if you look at the pre-destination belief it takes free will out of the picture when asking for salvation

[mlqurgw]

Where did you get your information concerning Calvinism or Arminianism? You seem to be a bit confused on both. Your statements reflect an Arminian viewpoint. If you want to get correct information go to those who hold either view and ask questions. Calvinism is the least works based of any theological system.

[trentlogain]

I don't go for either Calvinism or Arminianism. If I had to pick a name of theology it would be 'Logainism'. That's to say I go by Truth of The Bible as the best I know it. I don't mean to sound condescending, but I just don't subscribe to any man-made doctrine. I've been wrong a few times concerning doctrine (which was brought to my attention later on), but I let the Holy Spirit guide me to where He wants me to go.

[NewGuy101]

I don't go for either Calvinism or Arminianism. If I had to pick a name of theology it would be 'Logainism'. That's to say I go by Truth of The Bible as the best I know it. I don't mean to sound condescending, but I just don't subscribe to any man-made doctrine. I've been wrong a few times concerning doctrine (which was brought to my attention later on), but I let the Holy Spirit guide me to where He wants me to go.
By your logic everyone including yourself ascribes to "man made doctrine." Both armianians and calvinist adhere to a system which they think best respresents scripture.

[DeaconDean]

And also that Calvinism is works-based because if you aren't doing good works or showing fruits then you haven't proven you have been chosen (the doctrine that Christians WILL and HAVE TO show good works and fruit) .

This is totally false.

Calvinism never teaches a "works based" system.

With Calvinism, it is all about faith and grace.

You are saved by grace through faith. (cf Eph. 2:8)

As a matter of fact, our works come from our faith. (cf. Jas. 2:14)

And that is the whole point of James 2 that our Catholic friends do not believe.

Abraham's faith produced the works. It was by faith he left his home country to a place God would show him. It ws by faith that Abraham was given a son when he was well past the age to have children. It was faith acting out on a command from God to sacrifice Iaasc that Abraham went.

Faith produces works, not works producing faith. In fact, even before Abraham offered up Iaasc it was accounted unto him as righteousness. It wasn't the actual "work" it was the faith producing the work.

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." -Rom. 4:3 (KJV)

Abraham's faith was what was imputed for righteousness.


James 2:14 begins a new paragraph and addresses the matter of those who say they have faith but their faith does not produce any fruit (works) in their lives. (V14) This shows the context or subject of the paragraph. James further explains the subject by his statement in verse 18, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." This is the key to interpreting the passage.

To interpret the passage is simple. James is saying that if a person says they have true saving faith, their faith will produce works in their life. You will be able to see their faith in action. The justification spoken of here is not salvation, but justifying one calling himself a Christian and claiming to have saving faith when he is not living for the Lord. In other words a man who says he is saved and does not show any outward evidence of salvation then his salvation is in doubt because it produces no works or result in the man's life. The person who has saving faith and works is publicly justified in claiming to be have faith and be saved. His works show his faith. The one who has no works, whether he is saved or not, is not justified in outwardly saying he has saving faith, because his lack of works does not justify his claim.

Overwhelmingly the Bible tells us that we are saved by faith alone apart from works.

Romans 320 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

John 3:15-16, 36 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 315-16, 36.

James finishes the paragraph by saying "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26). Something that is dead is not alive and clearly God is saying that a person who, as a pattern of life, has no works does not appear to have saving faith. That is the point of this passage. This is certainly not teaching that a person must add works to faith to be saved. It is teaching the product of faith is works. James therefore is giving us the way of authenticating true saving faith. He is not teaching that salvation is faith plus works. He is giving us the justification for calling ourselves Christians.

Correctly interpreting the passage we can clearly see there is no contradiction. If we properly understand the passage and see that it does not conflict with Ephesians 2:8-9, which says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Salvation then is as God says....by faith in Jesus Christ alone. One cannot work for salvation or earn it. Only Jesus Christ is righteous and can save. Salvation which means paying our sin debt is something only He could do. No one can justify himself or add his works to the work of Christ and justify Himself. The following passage clearly proves this fact of doctrine. Salvation is by faith alone in the finished and complete atonement by Jesus Christ.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" (Romans 3:21-225).

Does James teach Salvation by Faith Plus Works?
-by Cooper Abrams


http://www.bible-truth.org/James2-24.html (http://www.bible-truth.org/James2-24.html)


Calvinism does not teach a works based system!

To quote John Calvin himself:

The principal point in this subject has been now explained: as justifications if dependent upon works, cannot possibly stand in the sight of God, it must depend solely on the mercy of God and communion with Christ, and therefore on faith alone.

Wherefore, let us never on any account allow ourselves to be drawn away one nail's breadth from that only foundation. After it is laid, wise architects build upon it rightly and in order. For whether there is need of doctrine or exhortation, they remind us that "for this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil;" that "whosoever is born of God does not commit sin;" that "the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles;" that the elect of God are vessels of mercy, appointed "to honor," purged, "sanctified, and meet for the Master's use, and prepared unto every good work." The whole is expressed at once, when Christ thus describes his disciples, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." He who has denied himself has cut off the root of all evils so as no longer to seek his own; he who has taken up his cross has prepared himself for all meekness and endurance. The example of Christ includes this and all offices of piety and holiness. He obeyed his Father even unto death; his whole life was spent in doing the works of God; his whole soul was intent on the glory of his Father; he laid down his life for the brethren; he did good to his enemies, and prayed for them. And when there is need of comfort, it is admirably afforded in these words: "We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body." " For if we be dead with him we shall also live with him; if we suffer, we shall also reign with him;" by means of "the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;" the Father having predestinated us "to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first-born among many brethren." Hence it is, that "neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord;" nay, rather all things will work together for our good. See how it is that we do not justify men before God by works, but say, that all who are of God are regenerated and made new creatures, so that they pass from the kingdom of sin into the kingdom of righteousness. In this way they make their calling sure, and, like trees, are judged by their fruits.

-John Calvin, Institutes of the Christain Religion, Book III, The Mode Of Obtaining The Grace Of Christ. The Benefits It Confers, And The Effects Resulting From It.,Chapter 15: "The Boasted Merit Of Works Subversive Both Of The Glory Of God, In Bestowing Righteousness, And Of The Certainty Of Salvation" Sections 1 and 8

Link (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/classics/calvin/institutes9-15.html)

God Bless

Till all are one.

[nzguy]

Wait a minute.. the faith without works verse in James are about not using your faith when you have the opportunity.. not about salvation. The examples given by James are about acts of service to God.. not accounts of salvation. So even if works do not accompany faith.. this doesn't mean we weren't saved in teh first place (altho it could if the salvation wasn't genuine i.e. asking Christ in without meaning it)..

if works don't accompany faith.. it could just mean the person has got tied up in worldy ways.. still saved thru Christ's commitment to us.. but struggling to grow.

here I am talking about saving faith for salvation.. asking Christ in as a step of faith..

there is also daily service faith.. which is independent of salvation.. and God is not dependent on us doing this to stay with us..

so this is why I believe Calvinism teaches that Christians WILL and HAVE to do good works.. because daily service is tied up with salvation.

So yah.. I am not Arminian because I believe we cannot leave God after salvation
I am not Calvinist because I believe salvation is freely available to anyone who asks Christ in and is an intial act.. not a whole life act.

So really.. I am not interested in what Calvinism or Arminianism teaches.. like Logain.. I just want to stick to the bible.

Ephesians 1:13b-14 in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

(1Pe 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(1Pe 1:4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

(Gal 2:16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Rom 10:11) For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(Rom 10:12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
(Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

(Eph 2:4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
(Eph 2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;)
(Eph 2:6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
(Eph 2:7) That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[nzguy]

ooops sorry I misinterpreted the previous post.. basically saying the same thing..

I just think with Calvinism.. that point of Christians knowing the are Christian by the works and fruit.. this is very hard to judge.. only God can judge this.. and how many people when genuinely saved have not been built into and led ungodly lives?

This doesn't mean they weren't saved in the first place, just that they are struggling to live for God. God stays with them.. will never leave them..

[DeaconDean]

Now wait a minute. You said earlier:

And also that Calvinism is works-based (the doctrine that Christians WILL and HAVE TO show good works and fruit) .


Wait a minute.. so this is why I believe Calvinism teaches that Christians WILL and HAVE to do good works..

Most Calvinists would jump all over this like a bass after a june-bug.

All we have done here is to show you that Calvinism does not teach a "works-based" doctrine.

It is even stated up front in Calvin's "Intitutes" that it all faith!

I really would suggest you study a little more.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[DeaconDean]

ooops sorry I misinterpreted the previous post.. basically saying the same thing..

I just think with Calvinism.. that point of Christians knowing the are Christian by the works and fruit.. this is very hard to judge.. only God can judge this.. and how many people when genuinely saved have not been built into and led ungodly lives?

This doesn't mean they weren't saved in the first place, just that they are struggling to live for God. God stays with them.. will never leave them..

That is wrong also.

Jesus taught:

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" -Mt. 7:16 (KJV)

Peoples New Testament:



7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. This common figure is wonderfully expressive. Not leaves (professions), or appearance, are the proper tests of the life that is in the tree, but the fruit it bears. We are to test men and every institution by this principle. Grapes of thorns. Two of the most highly valued fruits of Palestine are grapes and figs. Nothing is more common than thorns and thistles. Geike says that it is the land of thorns and thorny plants. Good fruit cannot be expected on such evil stocks.


Wesley's Notes:


7:16 By their fruits ye shall know them - A short, plain, easy rule, whereby to know true from false prophets: and one that may be applied by people of the weakest capacity, who are not accustomed to deep reasoning. True prophets convert sinners to God, or at least confirm and strengthen those that are converted. False prophets do not. They also are false prophets, who though speaking the very truth, yet are not sent by the Spirit of God, but come in their own name, to declare it: their grand mark is, Not turning men from the power of Satan to God. Luke 6:43,44.


Jamieson, Faussett - Brown:


16. Ye shall know them by their fruits-not their doctrines-as many of the elder interpreters and some later ones explain it-for that corresponds to the tree itself; but the practical effect of their teaching, which is the proper fruit of the tree.


Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary:


7:15-20 Nothing so much prevents men from entering the strait gate, and becoming true followers of Christ, as the carnal, soothing, flattering doctrines of those who oppose the truth. They may be known by the drift and effects of their doctrines. Some part of their temper and conduct is contrary to the mind of Christ. Those opinions come not from God that lead to sin.


http://bible.cc/matthew/7-16.htm

A good Pastor, and a good church, will produce good Christains. Like wise, a bad pastor and a bad congregation will produce bad "Christians."

For example, the converts coming out of the Westboro Baptist church. What happens when a Pastor preaches and teaches nothing but hate?

You produce Christians that hate.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits."

Can a fig tree produce thorns?

"Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?" -Jas. 3:11 (KJV)

Sure some Christans, well, most Christains from time to time, struggle. But their lives will show forth if they have been grounded in the truth or not.

You can judge from the lives they live if they are Christain or not.

You come to church, make a confession, and go out the door and live just the same as did before you come into the church, your not saved.

And believe me, sooner or later, it will show, they will be found out.

"For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad." -Mk. 4:22 (KJV)

Yes we can look at the life they are living and see for ourselves whether or not they are truly saved or not.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[yashualover]

well hang on a second.. I thought with calvinism there is only a pre-elected group of people who have been chosen to either go to heaven or hell.. and that you don't ask Jesus into your life for salvation.. but are somehow chosen. And also that Calvinism is works-based because if you aren't doing good works or showing fruits then you haven't proven you have been chosen (the doctrine that Christians WILL and HAVE TO show good works and fruit) .

This is what I don't agree with.. a person can be genuinely saved thru asking Christ into their lives and then get caught up in weeds.. worldy ways..

this doesn't mean they weren't saved in teh first place! Just that they haven't been fed after salvation.. haven't pursued reading the bible... going to a bible based church.. haven't shared their faith etc..

So what I thought with Calvinism is

1) you are unable to call out to God for salvation because you are completely depraved

2) the way you know you are saved is because of the good works and fruit in your life

3) that there is a pre-elected group of people chosen to go to heaven or hell.. and that there is no free will decision for anyone to become a Christian.

I may be wrong.. but I think if you look at the pre-destination belief it takes free will out of the picture when asking for salvation

YHWH has a predetermined plan before planet earth was even created and that includes all the people God has given to the Son.

Mankind is born is sin, in their pride they are sitting on the throne, so they think anyway. Mankind is dead in sins and are born God haters, they will never put their trust in Jesus Christ. This is why Jesus says "ye must be born again" Man can not make himself born again, this requires a supernatural awakening by the holy spirit. Only those whom the Father has given to the Son will be supernaturally awakened from the dead. Jesus said I came to give my life for the sheep, there are those who are not His sheep, He didn't come for them.

Works, obedience, trust are proofs that a person has been born again, His children do fall away but those who are His children will be chastised and be brought back into the fold. Chastisement through the word, people and circumstances. If a Christian or a so called christian is not chastised this is proof that he/she is not His child.

[yashualover]

How do we judge righteous judgment? It's very important for Christians to judge whether a teacher is a true or false, what is the best way to determine this? First a person needs to be well grounded in scripture because a wolf in sheep's clothing looks like a real sheep.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Compare what comes out of their mouths (what they teach) to scripture, this is the best way to get an early picture of the person.

Whatever is in their heart will come out of their mouth.

Luk 6:45 A good person produces good from the good treasure of his heart, and an evil person produces evil from an evil treasure. For it is out of the abundance of the heart that the mouth speaks."

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheeps' clothing but inwardly are savage wolves.
Mat 7:16 By their fruit you will know them. Grapes aren't gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles, are they?
Mat 7:17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a rotten tree produces bad fruit.

[DeaconDean]

nzguy, I could not help but notice your post in the Non-Denom room. It seems that you do not understand Calvinism in the least.

Calvinism does not teach the doctrine of "free will" as you believe. That is what the "T" in T.U.L.I.P. is all about.

Arminianism is the doctine that teaches man has a free will and is able to co-operate with God in the salvation process.

Yes, I will admit that man does have a will, but it is not free. It is not free to come to God, let alone chose to believe.

Man has a will, but it is free in one direction only, and that is towards evil.

Try reading Martin Luther's book: "The Bondage of the Will."

Arthur W. Pink shows:

1. The Nature of the Human Will.

What is the Will? We answer, the will is the faculty of choice, the immediate cause of all action. Choice necessarily implies the refusal of one thing and the acceptance of another. The positive and the negative must both be present to the mind before there can be any choice. In every act of the will there is a preference—the desiring of one thing rather than another. Where there is no preference, but complete indifference, there is no volition. To will is to choose, and to choose is to decide between two or more alternatives. But there is something which influences the choice; something which determines the decision. Hence the will cannot be sovereign because it is the servant of that something. The will cannot be both sovereign and servant. It cannot be both cause and effect. The will is not causative, because, as we have said, something causes it to choose, therefore that something must be the causative agent. Choice itself is affected by certain considerations, is determined by various influences brought to bear upon the individual himself, hence, volition is the effect of these considerations and influences, and if the effect, it must be their servant; and if the will is their servant then it is not sovereign, and if the will is not sovereign, we certainly cannot predicate absolute "freedom" of it. Acts of the will cannot come to pass of themselves—to say they can, is to postulate an uncaused effect. Ex nihilo nihil fit—nothing cannot produce something.

That which determines the will is that which causes it to choose. If the will is determined, then there must be a determiner. What is it that determines the will? We reply, The strongest motive power which is brought to bear upon it. What this motive power is, varies in different cases. With one it may be the logic of reason, with another the voice of conscience, with another the impulse of the emotions, with another the whisper of the Tempter, with another the power of the Holy Spirit; whichever of these presents the strongest motive power and exerts the greatest influence upon the individual himself, is that which impels the will to act. In other words, the action of the will is determined by that condition of mind (which in turn is influenced by the world, the flesh, and the Devil, as well as by God), which has the greatest degree of tendency to excite volition.

Human philosophy insists that it is the will which governs the man, but the Word of God teaches that it is the heart which is the dominating center of our being. Many scriptures might be quoted in substantiation of this. "Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life" (Prov. 4:23). "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders," etc. (Mark 7:21).Here our Lord traces these sinful acts back to their source, and declares that their fountain is the "heart," and not the will! Again; "This people draweth nigh unto Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me" (Matt. 15:8). If further proof were required we might call attention to the fact that the word "heart" is found in the Bible more than three times oftener than is the word "will," even though nearly half of the references to the latter refer to God’s will!

When we affirm that it is the heart and not the will which governs the man, we are not merely striving about words, but insisting on a distinction that is of vital importance. Here is an individual before whom two alternatives are placed; which will he choose? We answer, the one which is most agreeable to himself, i.e., his "heart"—the innermost core of his being. Before the sinner is set a life of virtue and piety, and a life of sinful indulgence; which will he follow? The latter. Why? Because this is his choice. But does that prove the will is sovereign? Not at all. Go back from effect to cause. Why does the sinner choose a life of sinful indulgence? Because he prefers it—and he does prefer it, all arguments to the contrary notwithstanding, though of course he does not enjoy the effects of such a course. And why does he prefer it? Because his heart is sinful. The same alternatives, in like manner, confront the Christian, and he chooses and strives after a life of piety and virtue. Why? Because God has given him a new heart or nature. Hence we say it is not the will which makes the sinner impervious to all appeals to "forsake his way," but his corrupt and evil heart. He will not come to Christ, because be does not want to, and he does not want to because his heart hates Him and loves sin: see Jeremiah 17 :9!

In defining the will we have said above, that "the will is the faculty of choice, the immediate cause of all action." We say the immediate cause, for the will is not the primary cause of any action, any more than the hand is. Just as the hand is controlled by the muscles and nerves of the arm, and the arm by the brain; so the will is the servant of the mind, and the mind, in turn, is affected by various influences and motives which are brought to bear upon it. But, it may be asked, Does not Scripture make its appeal to man’s will? Is it not written, "And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17)? And did not our Lord say, "ye will not come to Me that ye might have life" (John 5:40)? We answer; the appeal of Scripture is not always made to man’s "will"; other of his faculties are also addressed. For example: "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." "Hear and your soul shall live." "Look unto Me and be ye saved." "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." "Come now and let us reason together," "with the heart man believeth unto righteousness," etc., etc.


2. The Bondage of the Human Will.
In any treatise that proposes to deal with the human will, its nature and functions, respect should be had to the will in three different men, namely, unfallen Adam, the sinner, and the Lord Jesus Christ. In unfallen Adam the will was free, free in both directions, free toward good and free toward evil. Adam was created in a state of Innocency, but not in a state of holiness, as is so often assumed and asserted. Adam’s will was therefore in a condition of moral equipoise: that is to say, in Adam there was no constraining bias in him toward either good or evil, and as such, Adam differed radically from all his descendants, as well as from "the Man Christ Jesus." But with the sinner it is far otherwise. The sinner is born with a will that is not in a condition of moral equipoise, because in him there is a heart that is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked," and this gives him a bias toward evil. So, too, with the Lord Jesus it was far otherwise: He also differed radically from unfallen Adam. The Lord Jesus Christ could not sin because He was "the Holy One of God." Before He was born into this world it was said to Mary, "The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that Holy Thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). Speaking reverently then, we say, that the will of the Son of Man was not in a condition of moral equipoise, that is, capable of turning toward either good or evil. The will of the Lord Jesus was biased toward that which is good because, side by side with His sinless, holy, perfect humanity, was His eternal Deity. Now in contradistinction from the will of the Lord Jesus which was biased toward good, and Adam’s will which, before his fall, was in a condition of moral equipoise—capable of turning toward either good or evil—the sinner’s will is biased toward evil, and therefore is free in one direction only, namely, in the direction of evil. The sinner’s will is enslaved because it is in bondage to and is the servant of a depraved heart.

In what does the sinner’s freedom consist? This question is naturally suggested by what we have just said above. The sinner is ‘free’ in the sense of being unforced from without. God never forces the sinner to sin. But the sinner is not free to do either good or evil, because an evil heart within is ever inclining him toward sin. Let us illustrate what we have in mind. I hold in my hand a book. I release it; what happens? It falls. In which direction? Downwards; always downwards. Why? Because, answering the law of gravity, its own weight sinks it. Suppose I desire that book to occupy a position three feet higher; then what? I must lift it; a power outside of that book must raise it. Such is the relationship which fallen man sustains toward God. Whilst Divine power upholds him, he is preserved from plunging still deeper into sin; let that power be withdrawn, and he falls—his own weight (of sin) drags him down. God does not push him down, anymore than I did that book. Let all Divine restraint be removed, and every man is capable of becoming, would become, a Cain, a Pharaoh, a Judas. How then is the sinner to move heavenwards? By an act of his own will? Not so. A power outside of himself must grasp hold of him and lift him every inch of the way. The sinner is free, but free in one direction only—free to fall, free to sin. As the Word expresses it: "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness" (Rom. 6:20). The sinner is free to do as he pleases, always as he pleases (except as he is restrained by God), but his pleasure is to sin.

Arthur W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God, The Sovereignty of God and the Human Will, Preface, Sections 1 & 2.

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/sov_07.htm

So to repeat what Pink said:

The sinner is free, but free in one direction only—free to fall, free to sin. As the Word expresses it: "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness" (Rom. 6:20). The sinner is free to do as he pleases, always as he pleases (except as he is restrained by God), but his pleasure is to sin.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[nzguy]

alright.. well.. I do understand Calvinism then.. because if you don't have free will to ask for salvation.. how do you know you are saved? By fruits? Okay... well someone could be starting to display fruit after salvation.. then get caught up in weeds. I do agree that some indication needs to be there of salvation.. but that is just the result of justification, not a whole life sanctification process.

But the other thing is.. believing in verses like
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

this 'believe' in this verse... in Greek is

G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

This isn't a life long process- when we entrust something to someone else-- it is a giving over.. putting in someone elses care..

in this verse we are putting our salvation in God's care thru confessing Christ and believing He was raised from the dead, and we get saved by doing this.

Ephesians chapter 2 reinforces this.. where the 'saved' is in the past.. an event already happened.. not a continuing live process.

anyway.. yeah I don't really understand Calvinism completely, you are right.. but I do not wish to either.. I know enough about it to believe it doesn't sit squarely with scripture.. not all 5 tulip principles anyway.. a couple of them do.

There are a whole bunch of baptist churches who could call themselves non-denominational who adhere to neither calvinism nor armenianism..

most churches in teh American Baptist Association
alot missionary baptist churches around the world
many independent baptist churches don't go for either

and these are all churches grounded in the Word of God, mostly evangelical.

so yeah.. we will have to agree to disagree.. when I have looked into Calvinism and Armenianism some more one day.. I will be able to show exactly the points I don't agree with, with more scriptural support.

over and out

We have different viewpoints, so will have to agree to disagree,

[DeaconDean]

alright.. well.. I do understand Calvinism then..

No you do not understand Calvinism because I've seen you post in several areas of the forums that Calvinism teaches a "works-based" faith. And that, my friend, is not true.

I have shown you from Calvins "Institutes" where this is wrong. I have posted commentaries from Calvinist theologians who disagree and you still don't accept.

because if you don't have free will to ask for salvation.. how do you know you are saved? By fruits?

I never said man did not have a free will. In fact, I showed you from A.W.Pinks article that man does have a will. Its just not "free" in the sense you think. Even Martin Luther said the same thing bro. So let me repeat what I said:

The sinner is free to do as he pleases, always as he pleases (except as he is restrained by God), but his pleasure is to sin.

Even Jesus said:

"And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." -Jn. 5:40 (KJV)

Man, of his own "free will" will come to God, it takes something else to get him to come.

Okay... well someone could be starting to display fruit after salvation.. then get caught up in weeds. I do agree that some indication needs to be there of salvation.. but that is just the result of justification, not a whole life sanctification process.

What was it bro, that Jesus taught in the parable of the sower?

"Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." -Mt. 13:18-23 (KJV)

Even Jesus taught that there would be some who would get up in church, make a confession, and even show some sort of fruit, but that eventually, they would: "and he becometh unfruitful. "

And for future reference, there is a difference in "justification" which is a one time thing, and "sanctification" which is a life long process.

But the other thing is.. believing in verses like
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

this 'believe' in this verse... in Greek is

G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

This isn't a life long process- when we entrust something to someone else-- it is a giving over.. putting in someone elses care..

in this verse we are putting our salvation in God's care thru confessing Christ and believing He was raised from the dead, and we get saved by doing this.

Ephesians chapter 2 reinforces this.. where the 'saved' is in the past.. an event already happened.. not a continuing live process.

Now here, you show that you do not know Greek.

Let me set you straight.

"kai ontaV hmaV nekrouV toiV paraptwmasin sunezwopoihsen tw cristw cariti este seswsmenoi" -Eph. 2:5 (GNT)

Our word here is "seswsmenoi".

And in this passage, it says: "by grace you are being saved."

A continuous process my friend. The Greek word for saved, includes a "past," "present," and a "future" meaning.

In 1974, I was saved, today, 7/6/08, I am saved, and at some time in the future, I will be saved.

anyway.. yeah I don't really understand Calvinism completely, you are right.. but I do not wish to either.. I know enough about it to believe it doesn't sit squarely with scripture.. not all 5 tulip principles anyway.. a couple of them do.


You see, having been educated in Reformed Theology, I see it differently. The T.U.L.I.P. can be found as taught, in scripture.

And how can you even say that you "know enough about it to believe it doesn't sit squarely with scripture.. not all 5 tulip principles anyway.." when you haven't even studied it?

Your responses would be like me reading an article on particle acceleration and saying I know enough about it to know it won't work.

There are a whole bunch of baptist churches who could call themselves non-denominational who adhere to neither calvinism nor armenianism..

most churches in teh American Baptist Association
alot missionary baptist churches around the world
many independent baptist churches don't go for either

and these are all churches grounded in the Word of God, mostly evangelical.

And do you know why?

Now I was saved in an "Independant Missionary Baptist Church." Calvary Missionary Baptist Church to be exact. And I can tell you why most of these churches don't belong to one form or another.

The main reason they are evangelical is that they don't want a certain Association to tell them how much to donate and what doctrines they have to adhere to.

so yeah.. we will have to agree to disagree.. when I have looked into Calvinism and Armenianism some more one day.. I will be able to show exactly the points I don't agree with, with more scriptural support.

over and out

We have different viewpoints, so will have to agree to disagree,

As long as you continue to come in here and mis-represent Calvinism, I'll continue to come right behind you and correct it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[nzguy]

okay well.. back to the op q then.. what is Armenianism..

so far this is what I glean about Armenianism..

it isn't just the free will decision to ask Christ in, it is also the belief that after this decision, things can happen which render Christ's payment and sacrifice inoperative.

the 'faith without works dead' verses become verses for loss of salvation.. they are taken right out of context!

The Hebrews 6 verses about having tasted... becomes a verse about faliing away from God and losing your salvation.. once again taken out of context.. and skewed

alot of the verses to do with God's judgment get taken out of context to mean loss of salvation, when they really mean discipline or denial or rewards in heaven.

So yeah.. a couple of people have said that my beliefs are more Armenian.. but they aren't really because I don't believe anything can seperate you from Christ once you have asked Him in genuinely. Complete Arminianism from what I have gleaned so far has loss of salvation if you commit certain sins or fall away too far from God.

To me.. Arminianism denies the deity of Christ because it makes His sacrifice for us only partial.. not completely effectual.

[nzguy]

the reason the independent baptist churches don't adhere to a mother church doctrine is because they want to base their beliefs soley on teh bible. The people in my church have all studied scripture individually, and been encouraged to study it for themselves to test whether our beliefs stand up to scrutiny. And they do! My pastor would be able to refute Calvinism very nicely.. including bringing up the right Greek references. I imagine his approach would be to put all the verses about salvation along side eachother, in Greek, using Strong's concordance, and see by context what the salvation process is. I can do this with the English translations.. which could be enough. I have done this with previous posts, posting different scriptures.

Most Missionary Baptist churches you would know teach that there is no universal church.. and the reason?

because of Greek New Testament language! 'Ecclessia' for church! This has no universal church connotations!

Anyway.. you may actually believe there is no universal church.. but the point is.. at my church we are encouraged to seek out the Greek translations.. and rely on these when confusion happens. So I think I will go and delve into the Ephesians chapter 2 verses.. have a good look at the Greek.

so thanks for the probing.. questioning.. because it is true I don't know that much about Calvinism.. and I haven't looked at the Greek in Ephesians 2:5, but I do know that Ephesians 2:5 needs to be keeped in context of the whole of chapter 2.. and compared with other verses about being saved.. justification..and believing for eternal life.

churches in teh American Baptist Association have a statement of faith that was arrived at thru in depth study of the Word of God over a very long time thru historical churches dating right back to the beginning of christian churches.

They are independent because the bible supports this: local churches being light houses to their respective communities, with Jesus as the Head, grounded in the Word of God.

Not outside organisational control.. because outside orgs try to govern and control truths.. where they should be arrived at freely and independently thru studying the Word of God objectively, that interprets itself.

[NewGuy101]

If you are not a Calvinist or an Arminian what are you nzguy?

Please spare me the "I don't follow the doctrines of man" speech please. Clearly both groups think they follow God's word.

[Communion]

Yes we can look at the life they are living and see for ourselves whether or not they are truly saved or not.
:confused:
But some have an outside appearance of Christlike righteousness that we can judge as being Christian only to have that them later turn away as though they were never saved to begin with or something...guess like the seed parable and the sprout isn't rooted or gets choked out; early on it can look right..don't know if I'm making sense for you or not.:prayer:

[mlqurgw]

:confused:
But some have an outside appearance of Christlike righteousness that we can judge as being Christian only to have that them later turn away as though they were never saved to begin with or something...guess like the seed parable and the sprout isn't rooted or gets choked out; early on it can look right..don't know if I'm making sense for you or not.:prayer:Though we do make judgements, and are even supposed to, we are never told to judge our brothers and sisters. Satan sows tares among the wheat and we cannot tell the difference. We must assume that those who claim to believe the true Gospel are believers until they show themselves false by a lifelong rebellion. A believer can fall but Christ never leaves His sheep in the mire. Also, we are never told to be fruit inspectors except in one case, preachers. Matt. 7:15-20 Their fruit isn't their lives (they look, act and seem like sheep) but their message. We know them to be false by what they preach.

[Communion]

Though we do make judgements, and are even supposed to, we are never told to judge our brothers and sisters. Satan sows tares among the wheat and we cannot tell the difference. We must assume that those who claim to believe the true Gospel are believers until they show themselves false by a lifelong rebellion. A believer can fall but Christ never leaves His sheep in the mire. Also, we are never told to be fruit inspectors except in one case, preachers. Matt. 7:15-20 Their fruit isn't their lives (they look, act and seem like sheep) but their message. We know them to be false by what they preach.

Maybe I misunderstood the Deacon's context on this quote..you guys seem to agree most all the time it seems:amen:

Yes we can look at the life they are living and see for ourselves whether or not they are truly saved or not.

[mlqurgw]

Maybe I misunderstood the Deacon's context on this quote..you guys seem to agree most all the time it seems:amen:Yes Dean and I do agree most of the time. That is because we are truly brothers who have our hearts knitted together in love to Christ and His Gospel. Someday soon I hope to meet him in person and give him a manly hug from one who dearly loves and respects him. Yet there are some things that we differ on. I don't know if this is one of them but it doesn't matter. Though I have never met him in person he is one of my closest friends. I expect to travel in the next few days to the area of the country that he resides and plan to make arrangements to meet him then.

[Communion]

Yes Dean and I do agree most of the time. That is because we are truly brothers who have our hearts knitted together in love to Christ and His Gospel. Someday soon I hope to meet him in person and give him a manly hug from one who dearly loves and respects him. Yet there are some things that we differ on. I don't know if this is one of them but it doesn't matter. Though I have never met him in person he is one of my closest friends. I expect to travel in the next few days to the area of the country that he resides and plan to make arrangements to meet him then.

True brotherhood-may it more abound.:amen:

[DeaconDean]

Maybe I misunderstood the Deacon's context on this quote..you guys seem to agree most all the time it seems:amen:

Yes Dean and I do agree most of the time. That is because we are truly brothers who have our hearts knitted together in love to Christ and His Gospel. Someday soon I hope to meet him in person and give him a manly hug from one who dearly loves and respects him. Yet there are some things that we differ on. I don't know if this is one of them but it doesn't matter. Though I have never met him in person he is one of my closest friends. I expect to travel in the next few days to the area of the country that he resides and plan to make arrangements to meet him then.

There is a bit of confusion. What my implied remarks are that according to the parable of the sower, there are basicly four kinds of people. Those who make a confession, then go right back out into the world. Then there are those who make a confession, and when their faith is tried, they wither a dry up. Then there are those who make a confession endure for a while then wither up and die. Then there are those who make a confession and their walk and talk with God begins to bear fruit, son thirty, some sixty, some a hundred fold.

My whole point is, you cannot come and make a confession, then leave and live as you did before, out drinking, durgging, whatever. And it those types that you can see for yourself and judge for yourself.

That is what I was impling.

Yes we can judge, but, we are warned to judge righteously. And not one of us always judges righteously, there is only one person who always judges righteously and we ain't Him.

My brother Ron, thank you for your kind words. I have learned a lot from you not only as a friend but as a brother in Christ, and your wisdom in the Word has taught me also. Yes, as with anybody, we may disagree at times, but what disagreements we have had in the past were either from a misunderstanding or something minor like that. I can think of nobody, nobody, whose opinions I value more or seek out when there are times when even I have questions other than my brother Ron. He is a great asset to the Baptist area.

I really look forward to a day when we can meet. If your ever in my area, just give me a call and breakfest is on me. Remember that I work 3rd shift Saturday night thru Wednesday nights. 10m to 6am.

Just let me know when and where, and I'll be there.

Oh! By the way, here is some good news I almost forgot about. Guess what? The church my brother attends were to have their monthly "business meeting" last Sunday night. It was during this meeting that the deacons of his church was going to bring my baby brother (jr only by 7 years) up before the church to be voted on to become a deacon in his church. I haven't heard back from him yet as to whether or not they did, but I am prayerfully hoping.

I can honestly think of no one who better fits the biblical description of a "waiter." He really is in my opinion, worthy.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[nzguy]

Okay.. neither Arminian nor Calvin

Full blown Arminianism has the belief that you can lose your salvation

Full blown Calvinism has the belief that you don't ask Christ into your life.. but are pre-chosen. Depraved to the point that we do not have the capacity to ask God to come in to our lives.

the 3rd option:

salvation through calling out to Christ to forgive your sins and give you eternal life.. free gift, not by works, thru putting your faith in Christ.

Christ responds by sealing you with His Holy Spirit, guaranteeing eternal life.

Salvation after this.. can in no way be lossed.. not my suicide.. not by any sin.. not by asking God to leave us.. because we have been brought by His blood! Sins forgiven.. period.

This is real love.. a commitment of the will from Christ to stay with us no matter what thru His Holy Spirit indwelling us at salvation.

So this is not Calvinist.. because you do ask Christ for salvation
It is not Armenian (at least not full blown Armenian) because salvation can in no way be lossed.

I know this is an unpopular belief.. you don have to agree with me.. fine to disagree.

But it is grounded in the Word of God.. as thousands of other churches have found out.

The illustration for this salvation, is this:

when you have biological family.. when you are born into the family, even when you rebel against your parents.. they remain your parents. Even if you disclaim them.. if you are biologically their son or daughter.. they stay your parents.

The same is with God when you are born into the Family of God.. God's connection to us is even greater than a parents biological connection, because it is not bound by death.. since the Holy Spirit has eternally secured us!

So this is what I believe..

There are some who would call this Armenianism. but it isn't full-blown Armenianism which includes falling into sin to the point of losing salvation, or asking God to leave you.. and He leaves the person.

It isn't full blown Calvinism, because you do pray a sinner's prayer.. you do ask Christ into your life to forgive you of your sins.

So that is what I believe, because of scripture.

from

NZguy

[Communion]

It isn't full blown Calvinism, because you do pray a sinner's prayer.. you do ask Christ into your life to forgive you of your sins.

So that is what I believe, because of scripture.

from

NZguy

Do you have some scriptural examples of the use of "a sinner's prayer", just for the record? Probably Acts or the Gospels?

[DeaconDean]

Okay.. neither Arminian nor Calvin

Full blown Arminianism has the belief that you can lose your salvation

Full blown Calvinism has the belief that you don't ask Christ into your life.. but are pre-chosen. Depraved to the point that we do not have the capacity to ask God to come in to our lives.

the 3rd option:

salvation through calling out to Christ to forgive your sins and give you eternal life.. free gift, not by works, thru putting your faith in Christ.

Christ responds by sealing you with His Holy Spirit, guaranteeing eternal life.

Salvation after this.. can in no way be lossed.. not my suicide.. not by any sin.. not by asking God to leave us.. because we have been brought by His blood! Sins forgiven.. period.

This is real love.. a commitment of the will from Christ to stay with us no matter what thru His Holy Spirit indwelling us at salvation.

So this is not Calvinist.. because you do ask Christ for salvation
It is not Armenian (at least not full blown Armenian) because salvation can in no way be lossed.

I know this is an unpopular belief.. you don have to agree with me.. fine to disagree.

But it is grounded in the Word of God.. as thousands of other churches have found out.

The illustration for this salvation, is this:

when you have biological family.. when you are born into the family, even when you rebel against your parents.. they remain your parents. Even if you disclaim them.. if you are biologically their son or daughter.. they stay your parents.

The same is with God when you are born into the Family of God.. God's connection to us is even greater than a parents biological connection, because it is not bound by death.. since the Holy Spirit has eternally secured us!

So this is what I believe..

There are some who would call this Armenianism. but it isn't full-blown Armenianism which includes falling into sin to the point of losing salvation, or asking God to leave you.. and He leaves the person.

It isn't full blown Calvinism, because you do pray a sinner's prayer.. you do ask Christ into your life to forgive you of your sins.

So that is what I believe, because of scripture.

from

NZguy

In the first place, scripture agrees with Augustine and Calvin in that some were chosen before the foundation of the world. (cf. Eph. 1:4-5; Rom. 8:28-30)

Scripture also agrees with Calvin in the priniciples set for in the operation of the Holy Spirit in regards to salvation.

In the second place, soteriology is the area where you need a little work my friend.

The sinners prayer is nothing but a tool. Also, if the Holy Spirit is working within the sinner, then it is the Holy Spirit who has already:

Led the sinner to conviction.
Regenerated them.
Gave them faith and then led them exercise repentance.
Then permanantly indwells the person.
Every bit of it is a process that God starts.

"Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you." -Hab. 1:5 (KJV)

"Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:" -Lk. 22:67 (KJV)

"And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." -Jn. 5:40 (KJV)

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." -Jn. 12:32 (KJV)

"Create in me a clean heart and a right spirit." -Psa. 51:10 (KJV)

Blessed is the man in whom thou chooseth and causeth to approach thee" -Psa 65:4 (KJV)

"and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -Acts 13:48 (KJV)

What Arminianism seeks to do is to take away from scripture, take away from God what He has done for us, and place it on man. Man had some part to play in bring around his own salvation. He co-operated with God in his salvation.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[nzguy]

the actual words.. of 'praying to receive Christ' or asking Christ into your life for salvation are not in the bible.. what is in the bible is verses like these:

(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is pretty much the same thing as the sinners prayer



(Gal 3:22) But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

When you look at the Strong's Concordance for 'believe' this is entrusting, or commiting your spiritual well being with Christ..

This is pretty much what we do in the sinners prayer.


(Joh 3:15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


again.. believith.. in the Greek from Srong's Concordance means to commit, entrust one's spiritual well-being with Christ.

Again.. we do this in the sinners prayer


I could go on and on.. with more verses that support entrusting your salvation with Christ..

Christ responds to this kind of prayer by indwelling us with His Holy Spirit.. and He stays faithful to us no matter what.

This prayer isn't saying 'I will never sin again.. I now turn my whole life around for you Lord' that-- is Armenianism

this prayer is basically- 'Lord, I know I am a sinner, thankyou for dieing for my sins, I ask you to come into my life to forgive my sins, I receive you as my Saviour, thankyou for your gift of eternal life.. amen.'

All we are doing is asking Him in..this isn't a prayer that is saying if my life doesn't turn around after this point it means I am not saved..

it is soley on putting our trust in Christ who responds by giving us eternal life.. no works in there.. free gift

and know what you will say.. that if someone prays the prayer and then goes off and just sins willy nilly that ain't right.. and you are right! Taht is someone who likely werent' serious when they prayed the prayer and probably aren't saved. But that is between them and God.

Some one could genuinely ask Christ in.. and then never go to church, never get taught biblical teaching, have no Christian friends.. so they look worldy.. live worldy.. but have just never been fed after salvation.. doesn't mean Christ has left them, or did not accept their call for salvation.. that call is independent of service and works to God.

Real love.. is when someone commits themselves to you regardless of the circumstances.. agape love.. that is what Christ did on the cross for us.. and what He does personally when we ask Him in.

that is what scripture tells me

from

NZguy

[DeaconDean]

nzguy, may I ask you a question?

Aren't you an Anabaptist?

You should not be debating here.

For ther record, Anabaptists have traditionally been "Puritan." And Puritans generally are Calvinistic by nature.



There are two views concerning the Gospel of Jesus Christ. First, there is what we call Calvinism (http://www.apuritansmind.com/TULIP/WhyIAmACalvinist.htm). Then, there are varying degrees of unbelief. The essential doctrines concerning salvation, which the Puritans and all good Christians cling to, are summed up in the acronym T.U.L.I.P.


http://www.apuritansmind.com/TULIP/TULIP.htm

God Bless

Till all are one.

[MrJim]

nzguy, may I ask you a question?

Aren't you an Anabaptist?

You should not be debating here.

For ther record, Anabaptists have traditionally been "Puritan." And Puritans generally are Calvinistic by nature.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I've known and know a lot of anabaptists and to describe then as generally calvinistic would be a surprise to them~~Calvin himself wrote quite a treatise against the anabaptists for their "errant" ways;) I remember reading it when I attended a Reformed Baptist church some years past.

http://www.hbbookcentre.com/images/Farley-Treatises-Against-the-AnabaptistsLibertines.jpg


Puritans were mainly English~the early anabaptists were German/Swiss/Dutch...here's a pretty decent recording of anabaptist history from a Puritan site:cool:

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Reformation/McMahonRiseAnabaptists.htm

In reality all baptists are basically anabaptists in that we reject infant baptism and would require a re-baptism upon confession of faith...most baptists here, being transported back to those reformational days would find more in common with the anabaptists than with the Puritans or state Lutheran/Reformed churches of the time~if only because of the baptism issue and the nonconfessionalism -nondenominationalism - congregationalism of Baptist tradition. The anabaptists weren't big on ecclesiastical hierarchies (a.k.a. denominational HQs) controlling congregations either:D

Anyhow, enough of a derail...

[DeaconDean]

I've known and know a lot of anabaptists and to describe then as generally calvinistic would be a surprise to them~~Calvin himself wrote quite a treatise against the anabaptists for their "errant" ways;) I remember reading it when I attended a Reformed Baptist church some years past.

http://www.hbbookcentre.com/images/Farley-Treatises-Against-the-AnabaptistsLibertines.jpg


Puritans were mainly English~the early anabaptists were German/Swiss/Dutch...here's a pretty decent recording of anabaptist history from a Puritan site:cool:

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Reformation/McMahonRiseAnabaptists.htm

In reality all baptists are basically anabaptists in that we reject infant baptism and would require a re-baptism upon confession of faith...most baptists here, being transported back to those reformational days would find more in common with the anabaptists than with the Puritans or state Lutheran/Reformed churches of the time~if only because of the baptism issue and the nonconfessionalism -nondenominationalism - congregationalism of Baptist tradition. The anabaptists weren't big on ecclesiastical hierarchies (a.k.a. denominational HQs) controlling congregations either:D

Anyhow, enough of a derail...

Excuse me, I stand corrected.

But the fact remains, that this member is promoting a mixture of Calvinism and Arminianism.

And for an Anabaptist, this is...

But MrJim, the Anabaptist roots go further back than the:

German/Swiss/Dutch

The fact is, Anabaptists can trace there roots all the way back to 1120 and Lyons France to a group of men called "The Poor Men of Lyons."

Or, the Waldensians.

Protestant religious sect of medieval origin, called in French Vaudois. They originated in the late 12th cent. as the Poor Men of Lyons, a band organized by Peter Waldo, a wealthy merchant of Lyons, who gave away his property (c.1176) and went about preaching apostolic poverty as the way to perfection. Being laymen, they were forbidden to preach. They went to Rome, where Pope Alexander III blessed their life but forbade preaching (1179) without authorization from the local clergy. They disobeyed and began to teach unorthodox doctrines; they were formally declared heretics by Pope Lucius III in 1184 and by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. In 1211 more than 80 were burned as heretics at Strasbourg, beginning several centuries of persecution. The Waldenses proclaimed the Bible as the sole rule of life and faith. They rejected the papacy, purgatory, indulgences, and the mass, and laid great stress on gospel simplicity. Worship services consisted of readings from the Bible, the Lord's Prayer, and sermons, which they believed could be preached by all Christians as depositaries of the Holy Spirit. Their distinctive pre-Reformation doctrines are set forth in the Waldensian Catechism (c.1489).

http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/abc.htm

And most of what are now considered Anabaptists in America, are Mennonites, Quakers, the Amish, and Puritans. And Puritans, as the quote above shows, typically agree with T.U.I.L.P.

And did you know that there is less an hours drive from my house a group of Waldensians?

God Bless

Till all are one.

[MrJim]

Having spent the past 20 years in "mennonite country" of central PA the Puritan angle is one I hadn't heard of~I'll have to check into it; being related to Richard Baxter wouldn't be a bad thing :cool:

I understand that the Waldensians of today are but a shadow of what they stood for back in those early days~have you ever had any contact with the modern Waldensians?

You are correct in that some trace anabaptists further back than the reformation~some create an almost "trail of blood" sorta history. Generally though, since modern anabaptists are considered represented by Amish, Mennonite, Hutterite, and Brethren churches its beginnings are historically recognized as happening during the Reformation (the Radical Reformation historians call it).

Quakers are not considered anabaptists, though they are sorta lumped in with them on CF's anabaptist forum. There have been some threads about this over there. They are there since they are one of the historic "Peace" churches and not large enough to support their own forum. Since Quakers generally don't even practice baptism they're not much into rebaptizing. There can be some outward similarities but there are substantial differences between the two groups. Fow would have had a Puritan background growing up in England durig the late 1600/s.

As to the rules you are correct~this "no icon" thing kinda makes life a little more complicated; never sure who is what :doh:

[nzguy]

I'm not ana-baptist in the Amish, Mennonite, Brethren sense.. because they are Christian churches who have the universal church doctrine. The ana-baptists my church traces themselves to believe 'church' to only be local.. no universal aspect to it. Mind you, in alot of cases, that is the ONLY difference in teaching to my church and the likes of open Brethren, and Mennonites.

The Trail of Blood booklet is much maligned by many, because the historical records of these churches in this booklet are quite sparse. But the thing is, that is not because they can't trace themselves right back to the beginning of Christian churches, but because the records that help them do this have been mostly destroyed by other larger organisational churches such as Catholicism and some Protestant denoms that persecuted and cut off these Christian churches.

There are other books that tease the Trail of Blood history out more besides that, such as the Battle for Baptist History.

Anyway, I agree with the statement that all Baptists are pretty much ana-baptists.. since we have re-baptising people from other churches who are wayward on salvation, have no infant baptism, and generally immersion only for baptism, that is not an act of salvation, but a symbol of what has already occured.

These are all distinctives of churches in the Trail of Blood booklet, and it makes sense to think that these doctrines were around in Christian churches who have links to the churches in the New Testament at Ephesus, Phillipi, Corinth.. etc..

So the records are fragmentary and sparse.. but the biblical teaching of these churches is what counts... and it makes sense to think that churches with these teachings have been around since the beginning of the New Testament churches.

So I'm ana-baptist.. but not because of history, or because of tradition (altho my church can link itself with both of these).. but because of biblical teaching.

I don go for Armenianism or Calvinism because they are represent men formulising doctrine on salvation from the Word of God into theological concepts.. rather than just having independent christians studying the Word of God themselves in context and drawing doctrine that way from the bible interpreting itself.

There are a whole bunch of Christians in this forum who probably have the same or if not very close teaching about salvation to mine.. there are members of this forum from Missionary Baptist Churches.. Independent Baptists..

the MBA in the statements of faiths for the Baptist forum has almost exactly the same teaching as the ABA, which my church is affiliated with. I think the only difference would be the statement-- we reject calvinism at the bottom of the ABA statement of faith.

So ya in answer to the question am I an ana-baptist.. I am, but I could just call myself non-denominational, bible believing.. as could my church. We have chosen to have the name Baptist because it is familiar to people, and has a rich heritage.

So that is me.. I think this posting has kind of been going round and round and round.. saying the same stuff!

oh well..

from

NZguy

[IisJustMe]

Anabaptist churches, for the most part, are Arminianist, and the Southern Baptist Church is decidedly not Arminianist, so I don't think you can say, with confidence, that "most Baptists" are Anabaptist in nature, as the SBC is the largest Baptist denomination and rejects Arminianism.

[MrJim]

Anabaptist churches, for the most part, are Arminianist, and the Southern Baptist Church is decidedly not Arminianist, so I don't think you can say, with confidence, that "most Baptists" are Anabaptist in nature, as the SBC is the largest Baptist denomination and rejects Arminianism.

I was especially pointing toward the believer's baptism and the fact that even if you were a "calvinist" anabaptist you will still be persecuted by Calvin & Luther for your anabaptist stance~interesting if you ponder it enough^_^

[IisJustMe]

I was especially pointing toward the believer's baptism and the fact that even if you were a "calvinist" anabaptist you will still be persecuted by Calvin & Luther for your anabaptist stance~interesting if you ponder it enough^_^http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:8g8xaaSZhzbhyM:http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/carlapryor/headache.gif

It gave me a headache. Can I stop pondering it now, please?

[MrJim]

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:8g8xaaSZhzbhyM:http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/carlapryor/headache.gif

It gave me a headache. Can I stop pondering it now, please?

:D Prefer aspirin, tylenol or advil? I'm an aspirin guy myself..

[DeaconDean]

Take a "BC" or a "Goody's" power.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[IisJustMe]

Advil Liqui-Gels, but thanks for the concern, guys. Much appreciated.

[MrJim]

Take a "BC" or a "Goody's" power.

God Bless

Till all are one.

:D I remember the first time I ever saw the Goody's powder. I'm just an Ozark boy fresh out of USMC boot camp & radio school and stationed in Camp LeJeune NC. One time a buddy (Smitty) and I go hitchhiking into Jacksonville. It was always easy to get a ride into town, and it wasn't too long before we get picked up. Smitty sat up front and I got in the back. He's talking to the driver, and at a stop sign the guy gets this little envelope out and I can see he's messing around with some white powder. Well I'm thinking it cocaine or something, but don't say anything. After we get to our destination and the guy drives off, I ask him about it, and he just laughs at me. He actually lived in Swansboro (little town near Jacksonville/LeJeune) and told me about these "headache powders". I never believed him until he showed them to me at the store...:D

[DeaconDean]

:D I remember the first time I ever saw the Goody's powder. I'm just an Ozark boy fresh out of USMC boot camp & radio school and stationed in Camp LeJeune NC. One time a buddy (Smitty) and I go hitchhiking into Jacksonville. It was always easy to get a ride into town, and it wasn't too long before we get picked up. Smitty sat up front and I got in the back. He's talking to the driver, and at a stop sign the guy gets this little envelope out and I can see he's messing around with some white powder. Well I'm thinking it cocaine or something, but don't say anything. After we get to our destination and the guy drives off, I ask him about it, and he just laughs at me. He actually lived in Swansboro (little town near Jacksonville/LeJeune) and told me about these "headache powders". I never believed him until he showed them to me at the store...:D

Now I was born and raised in No. Carolina, so I'm very familiar with these. As a former (if there is a such thing) Marine, we pride ourselves on toughness. But, back in my drinking days, if I woke uo with a hangover, (and it had to a good one for me to take a power) and I mean it had to be a doozy, a "Goody" powder or a "BC" was the only thing that would flat knock out a headache in about 20 minutes.

Ask Nascar Hall of Famer Richard Petty (#43) about "Goody Powders."

http://bestsmileys.com/cars/18.gif

God Bless

Till all are one.

[yashualover]

Though we do make judgements, and are even supposed to, we are never told to judge our brothers and sisters. Satan sows tares among the wheat and we cannot tell the difference. We must assume that those who claim to believe the true Gospel are believers until they show themselves false by a lifelong rebellion. A believer can fall but Christ never leaves His sheep in the mire. Also, we are never told to be fruit inspectors except in one case, preachers. Matt. 7:15-20 Their fruit isn't their lives (they look, act and seem like sheep) but their message. We know them to be false by what they preach.

1Co 5:12 After all, is it my business to judge outsiders? You are to judge those who are inside, aren't you?
1Co 5:13 God will judge outsiders. "Put that wicked man away from you."

That is those who are inside the church.

[DeaconDean]

Having spent the past 20 years in "mennonite country" of central PA the Puritan angle is one I hadn't heard of~I'll have to check into it; being related to Richard Ba